1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,119 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of iHeart Media, Stuff Media, 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: or its employees. Over the course of our investigation, we 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: conducted nearly one interviews and combed through dozens of police 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: records in old newspaper articles, We traveled to the crime 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: sites and unearthed hours of archival footage that hadn't been 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: heard since its original broadcast. It's easy to get lost 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: in this fifty year old mystery. As we investigated the case, 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: we met people who were there when it all started. 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: Their stories are an important reminder that this case is 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: rooted in a very real tragedy. Through all these conversations, 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: we also discovered new facts about the case and began 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: to see cracks in the stories engraved in the zodiac lore, 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: even going back to the first attack in the Bay Area, 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: the murders of Betty lu Jensen and David Faraday just 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: five days before Christmas. By Lewis really head over heels 18 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: for David. I didn't meet him until the night that 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: they were killed, because they came to her house that night. 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: My name was John Henslin and I grew up in Vaio, California. 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: There was they Lewis, my sister's best friend since Kenny Garden. 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: She came to the house Calle often. She drew a lot, 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: and she was really into Snoopy and she wanted to 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: be an artist. Vitty Lou and David came to her 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: house that night and this was supposed to be their 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: first date, which really wasn't their first date because they 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: were seeing each other at school. He went to val 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: High and she went to Hogan which was across town. 29 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: But my sister said that they would always see each 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: other lunchtime and stuff like that, so they were, you know, 31 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: dating for a while, but officially as far as her 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: parents were concerned, my sister she had a boyfriend that 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: was a little bit older. At a car, her and 34 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: Vitty Lou and David and her boyfriend were supposed to 35 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: go to San Francisco. Was a story that they were 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: telling my parents that night, and my sister's boyfriend was 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: late showing up finding my sister said go wherever you 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: need to go because I can't find my boyfriend, and 39 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: she walked him into the car and they made plans 40 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: to go up that next morning to go shopping and 41 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: Vitty Lou and David drove off and that was the 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: last time in we saw him. It really affected my 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: sister a lot, because, you know, the phone rang the 44 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: next morning. It was our friend across the street heard 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: on radio that Bailey was killed, and my sister just 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: went nuts. It was five days before Christmas and she 47 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: was sixteen, and it just ruined everything for everybody. You know, 48 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: it was pretty sad, and you know the things that 49 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: went on with the the police and everything about you know, 50 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: what they thought happened and when they're trying to find 51 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: out what happened. And it was hard on my sister 52 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: because in those days, they went down to the police 53 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: station and talked to the detectives without my parents or anything, 54 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 1: because you know, they didn't have that Miranda thing or 55 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: any of that kind of stuff. And they were showing 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: my sister the the bullets that came out of Betty 57 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: Low and saying, you know, we know this was a 58 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: drug deal and we need you to tell us what happened. 59 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: And they went the next day and went through my 60 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: sister's locker because herne Bailey shared a locker at school, 61 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: and it was really hard on my sister, the way 62 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: they treat her and where they try to get her 63 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: to confess this big drug deal going bad that they 64 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: thought it all was, but it never was anything to 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: do with drugs because they were just you know, just 66 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: say steam. They were really into that lifestyle at all, 67 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, even though my sister and boyfriend was one 68 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: of the big drug dealers in town and he ended 69 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: up odin later on anyhow, you know, but the cops 70 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 1: thought it that's all it was, was some drug deal 71 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: going bad and trying to get my sister to confess 72 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: to what she knew of out it. They were really 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: really mean to her and you know, showing her the 74 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: bullets that came out of her and there was guns 75 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: in the room and saying these were kind of guns 76 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: that shot her, and you know, she was really really 77 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: affected by it forever, you know, for years, basically you 78 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: just did one movie know where she was or who 79 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: she was or nothing for a long long time. For 80 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: fear of the fact that the Zodiac could still be 81 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: around somewhere, we reached out to John Hencelin after getting 82 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: a tip from a zodiologist we met in San Francisco. 83 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: We wondered how many other people no untold parts of 84 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: this story and have held their tongues out of fear, 85 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: because we fear that with every passing year, more clues 86 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: may be lost forever. And we hope that those who 87 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: do know something will come forward, because a single interview, 88 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: a single story, can change everything. The thing that really 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: happened that affected us again was July fourth murder at 90 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: Blue Rock Springs. My sister was out with her boyfriend 91 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: that night, and if you weren't home at midnight, yours 92 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: a call in to you know, get clearance on when 93 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: you're coming home or everybody where you're at. Well, it 94 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: was fourth of July, so everybody was up late, and 95 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: my mother was worried, and my sister wasn't home after midnight. 96 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: So I had this multi band radio that got police calls. 97 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: About ten after twelve, I get the radio out, we 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: turn it on and started listening to the police calls 99 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: and nothing major going on. All of a sudden, the 100 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: report comes from Blue Rock Springs of brown Chevy with 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: two kids in it and they were shot, and they're 102 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the kind of car, what the 103 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: kids look like, and they looked like my sister and 104 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: her boyfriend and he had a brown Chevy, and my 105 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: mother was going nuts, and then they're saying the girl 106 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: was dead and the guy wasn't and the bullets were nine. 107 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: The moment lugers and we're all going nuts on what 108 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: was going on. Five ten minutes later, my sister comes 109 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: walking in the door and when, where the hell have 110 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: you been? Do you know what's going on? And never 111 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: really scared everybody, especially my mother. The weird thing about it, 112 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, years later thinking about it. Ten minutes later, 113 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: that's when the Zodiac called the police station to report 114 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: a double murder and told everybody, you know, it was 115 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: a nine milliment or louder. And when he sent the 116 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: letter to the paper, he said, to prove that I'm 117 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: who it was that killed him, I'll tell you only 118 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: things that I know, and the police no. But if 119 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: you go through and read the police reports, it's almost 120 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: word for word, verbatim on what the police said in 121 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: the police reports and exactly what I heard the police 122 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: say on the radio that night. So you know, it 123 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: makes sense that it was somebody from Valleo, somebody that 124 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: was in that area and had a scanner in your 125 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: car or something and heard everything because you know, he 126 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: said the things before any of the police are words 127 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: ever came out. So it was a coincidence that the 128 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: guy knew everything that the police knew, and he actually 129 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: repeated everything that we heard on the radio. A man 130 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: in a mask robbed and tied and stabbed them, leaving 131 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: them for dad. Subjects stated, I want to report a murder, 132 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: no a double murder. I did it. A man who 133 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: wore an evil style executioner's hood, carried a knife and 134 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: gun and intended to use them. They haven't arrested me 135 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,559 Speaker 1: because they can't prove it. I'm not damn Zodiac. Who 136 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: is the Zodiac and where is he? From My Heart Radio, 137 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: How Staff works and Tenderfoot TV, this is monster the 138 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: Zodiac killer? Is the Zodiac? A man, a myth or 139 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: something in between. As we conclude the season, we'll investigate 140 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: one of the most frightening theories about the Zodiac, and 141 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: we'll explore the Zodiac's legacy. How is he alluded capture 142 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: for fifty years but still stuck in our minds? Where 143 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: is the Zodiac now? And where will he fit in history? 144 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: After Darlene Ferrin and Michael Majau were shot, someone called 145 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: the police department to report a murder. If you will 146 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: go one mile east on Columbus Parkway, you'll find kids 147 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: in a brown car. They were shot with a nine 148 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: millimeter luker, I also killed those kids last year, goodbye? 149 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: Could that phone call have been just a cruel prank 150 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: by someone who heard the police dispatch? And weeks later 151 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: when the first letters arrived, how can we be sure 152 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: that those letters were sent by the killer himself and 153 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: not by someone else with access to information about the murders, 154 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: a photographer or police officer at the crime scene, or 155 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: an overly ambitious journalist. Dear editor, this is the murderer 156 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman. To 157 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: prove I killed them, I shall state some facts which 158 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: only I and the police know. One brand name of 159 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: Ammo super X. Two ten shots were fired. And of 160 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: course there's been theories over the years that they invented 161 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: the Zodiac to sell more newspapers. Zodiac expert Michael Butterfield 162 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: says some posit that the Zodiac killer was just an 163 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: elaborate hoax, that there was no serial killer at all, 164 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: just a letter writer linking together entirely separate crimes and 165 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: I can't say that there wasn't any part of these 166 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: newspaper editors who were seeing a green you know, saying 167 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: oh my god, okay, well, this is gonna certainly spike 168 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:44,599 Speaker 1: our circulation. At the Lake berries a stabbing of Cecilia 169 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Shepherd and Brian Hartnell. The killer donned the zodiacs now 170 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: iconic outfit and scrawled a message on the victim's car. 171 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: He drew the crosshairs Zodiac symbol, listed the dates of 172 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: the first three attacks, and wrote only four words v LEO, 173 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: timber and by knife. But do the outfit and message 174 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: on the car truly proved the Berryessa attack was linked 175 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: to the other crimes. Could the attacker have been a 176 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: copycat killer inspired by news stories about the Zodiac. Really 177 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: only two things linked the Berryessa attack to the other killings. 178 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: The attackers m o in handwriting analysis. But how accurately 179 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: can experts determine the author of just a few words 180 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: scrawled on the side of a car. And wasn't this 181 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: attack with knives rope in a costume a deviation from 182 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: the Zodiac's usual method. Most serial killers do follow some 183 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: discernible pattern where the victims match some criteria. You know, 184 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: But for someone who had committed two shootings of couples 185 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: sitting in parked cars and lovers lanes at night and 186 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: secluded areas, the fact that the Zodiac then showed up 187 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: in a popular recreation area during the day, why did 188 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: he change his m O from blitz creeg shootings at 189 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: night to daylight stabbings of young couples sitting out on 190 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: a lake. There's a theory that the attack at Lake 191 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: Berryessa was a copycat killer who was inspired by what 192 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: he read in the newspapers. Now, I don't think that 193 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: the evidence supports that theory, especially the fact that experts 194 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: have determined that the handwriting on the car door matches. 195 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: Now you can disagree with the experts, But if it 196 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: was the Zodiac, again, why this drastic departure from his 197 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: previous m O, and then why no effort to communicate 198 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: or take credit for it in any meaningful way. Strangely, 199 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: the Zodiac never directly referred to the Lake Berryessa stabbing 200 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: in any of his letters. This was his most iconic attack, 201 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: and for someone who seemed to delight in boasting about 202 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: his crimes, leaving it out seems odd. But Butterfield says 203 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: there's one real weakness in any Zodiac coax theory, the 204 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: murder of San Francisco cab driver Paul Stein. It's hard 205 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: to imagine a scenario where the letter writer wasn't at 206 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: least somehow connected to Stein's killing, because pieces of Stein's 207 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: bloody shirt were included in the next three Zodiac letters. Now, 208 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: it's possible that the Zodiac felt this was necessary because 209 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: there was a lot of speculation about crimes that he 210 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: had committed or crimes that were being linked to him 211 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: in the media. He may have felt it was necessary 212 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: to prove beyond any doubt that he was responsible for 213 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: that crime. So we can safely link the Zodiac letters 214 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: to the murder of cab driver Paul Stein. But could 215 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: the fixation on finding a single suspect responsible for all 216 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: of the crimes have led investigators to discount viable suspects 217 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: for some of the crimes. For example, is it possible 218 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: that prime suspect Arthur Lee Allen was actually a copycat killer. 219 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: He admitted to police he had bloody knives in his 220 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: car on the day of the Lake Barriesa stabbings knives 221 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: he leaned he used to slaughter chickens. Could it be 222 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: that Alan was responsible for the berries a static but 223 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the other Zodiac murders or 224 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: any of the letters. But I'm not the Zodiac killer. 225 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: I know that. I know that deep in my shoul. 226 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: When Valleo Place searched Arthur Lee Allen's home, they discovered 227 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: some clippings about the Zodiac case. Although we don't know 228 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: precisely what those were, some of them may have been 229 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: related to the book Zodiac. If I could go back 230 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: and give myself some advice, the very first piece of 231 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:53,359 Speaker 1: advice I would give myself is be skeptical of everything. Ultimately, 232 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Michael Butterfield believes in a simple explanation for the Zodiac crimes. 233 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: The Five Bay Area murders, the phone calls, and most 234 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: of the letters were the work of a single man, 235 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: a man we know only as the Zodiac. As I 236 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: have always said, I believe the fingerprints, the handwriting, the DNA, 237 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: the palm print, I believe those things belong to the killer. 238 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: And when they actually do find the killer, I believe 239 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: that evidence will match him and we will be able 240 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: to write the end of this story. But there are 241 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: many points of disagreement between different investigators, and there's still 242 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: debate about the scope of the Zodiac's crimes. Which letters 243 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: did the Zodiacs send and which were forgeries, how much 244 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: can we trust the witness identifications, and who are the 245 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: confirmed victims. You have to be careful when you're discussing 246 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: possible Zodiac crimes because once you assume that another crime 247 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: has been committed by the Zodiac, you're taking on all 248 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: the elements of that case, including the evidence. So in 249 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: a case like the Riverside murder of Sherry Joe Bates 250 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: in six, there is DNA associated with that case. And 251 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: if you assume that the Zodiac is responsible for the crime, 252 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: and then you have a suspect whose DNA does not 253 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: match the DNA and the Riverside case, you could mistakenly 254 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: exclude someone because it is possible that the Riverside case 255 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: is not connected to the Zodiac and therefore the Zodiacs 256 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: DNA would have nothing to do with the Riverside case. 257 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: The same applies to the failed abduction of Kathleen John's 258 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: in Vy. You have to be very careful because at 259 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's perfectly possible the Zodiac 260 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: was not involved at all. Even in a podcast of 261 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: this length. There are many theories and clues we haven't 262 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: been able to explore, like the water theory. Many Zodiac 263 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: killings occurred by bodies of water or at locations named 264 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: after water, Blue Rock Springs, Lake Herman, Lake Berriessa. Did 265 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: he intentionally pick these places for that reason? And could 266 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: this therefore be a clue. The water theory also seems 267 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: to fit the murders of Sherry Joe Bates in Riverside, 268 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: and of Robert Dominguez and Linda Edwards, who were killed 269 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: on a beach in Santa Barbara, and even Donna Lass 270 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: who disappeared from Lake Tahoe, and Dana Lull who was 271 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: dropped down a mine shaft off Mountain Springs Road. And 272 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: many wonder about the Zodiac's apparent fascination with the Makado, 273 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: a Gilbert and Sullivan opera. In three later letters, the 274 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: Zodiac paraphrased lyrics from the Macado as someday it may 275 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: happen that a victim must be found. I've got a 276 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: little list. I've got a little list of society offenders 277 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: who might well be underground, who would never be missed, 278 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: who would never be missed, there is the pestilential nuisances 279 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: who write for autographs, all people who have flabby hands 280 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: and irritating laughs, all children who were up in dates, 281 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: employee with implatte, all people who were shaking hands, shake 282 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: hands like that, and all third persons with spoiling kick. 283 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: Those who insist they'd none of them be missed, they'd 284 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: none of them be missed. In fact, the Zodiac's letters 285 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: alluded to many works of popular culture. When he talked 286 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: about shooting victims with an electric flashlight attached to the 287 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: barrel of a gun, that might have come from an 288 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: episode of Alfred Hitchcock presents. Another thing that he wrote 289 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: on a letter about methods of killing by knife, by fire, 290 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: by gun and rope might have come from an old 291 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: comic book. You know. He referred to the Blue Meanies 292 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: in the movie Yellow Submarine. And it appears that at 293 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: a certain point the Zodiac started writing letters as a 294 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: media critic. He complained that the movie The Exorcist was 295 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: a satirical comedy. He complained about the glorification of violence 296 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: in the movie The bad Lands, and in turn, the 297 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: Zodiac greatly impacted pop culture himself. For example, consider the 298 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: Zodiac school bus threats. He almost goes to a symbol 299 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: of innocence school children, not of us. That's like, you know, 300 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: killing a grandmother. It's particularly diabolical. That's Peter Richardson, historian 301 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: and lecturer at San Francisco State University. And interestingly, that's 302 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: the part that creates the afterlife for the Zodiac as well, 303 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: because that incident is what gets Clinton Eastwood's first big movie, 304 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: Going Dirty, Harry his first big star turn. I know 305 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: what you're thinking, Bitty by her six shots are only five? 306 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: Being this supporting for Magnet, the most powerful handgun in 307 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: the world, you get to ask yourself one question, Do 308 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: I feel lucky? Well? Do your bunker? The influence of 309 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: pop culture may explain why there are so many theories 310 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: and so much misinformation about the Zodiac case, But why 311 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: has the Zodiac in particular fascinated the public for the 312 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: last fifty years. Here's San Francisco Chronicle reporter Kevin Fagan. 313 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: I've covered a lot of killers with a lot higher 314 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: body counts and a lot more sick, twisted ways of 315 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: killing people. William Bond on the freeway killer. That guy 316 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: killed forty boys, raped him in a van tortured him, 317 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: killed him in horrible ways, and throw him out naked 318 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: on the freeway. That's a little worse than what the 319 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: Zodiac did. I find it kind of sad because the 320 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: thing that makes it interesting is this guy was theatrical 321 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: that if it hadn't been for the ciphers and the 322 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: taunting letters in particular, no one would remember this guy. 323 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: The Zodiac's killings are theatrical. They almost feel ripped from 324 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: the pages of crime fiction. There's a masked villain cryptic 325 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: codes said to contain his identity in the murders of 326 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: teenagers who made the tragic mistake of going to a 327 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: lover's lane. Michael Butterfield thinks this helped sustain the Zodiac's infamy. 328 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: That's always been part of the horror story lexicon, the 329 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: idea of the lover's lane killer, you know, the guy 330 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: with the hook and all those stories. So that just 331 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: it into that and it was terrifying on a whole 332 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: new level because, unlike those other stories that you hear 333 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: about the hook man or whatever, this guy actually shows up. 334 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that was most terrifying about it 335 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: was the fact that these people were selected at random, 336 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: that they were young kids who had so much going 337 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: for them. I think people can understand more when you 338 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: know it's I hate to say it, when someone's raped 339 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: and murdered, you can understand why the person did it, 340 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: what their motive was. And maybe our hesitancy to talk 341 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: about sexual violence helps explain his prominence as well. Maybe 342 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: the fact that the Zodiac was just a killer who 343 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: didn't torture or sexually assault his victims made his crimes 344 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: easier to discuss. In a culture obsessed with violence but 345 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: squeamish about sex, we are surrounded by violence all the time, 346 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: but we're not aware of that. If you want proof, 347 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: just look at the television listings for any given day 348 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: of the week and think about how many of the 349 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: shows revolve around homicidal by lence. David Schmidt is an 350 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: English professor at the University of Buffalo. He's an expert 351 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: on the intersection of crime and popular culture. We spoke 352 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: with him to try and understand America's fascination with violence. 353 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: You will find that it's everywhere, and yet we don't 354 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: see it because we've become so used to it now. 355 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: Part of the reason for this is that popular culture 356 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: that deals with violence is always faced with a problem, 357 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: how do you make violence entertain him but also make 358 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: it possible for the viewer not to feel guilty about 359 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: enjoying violence, and popular culture has been incredibly successful in 360 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: coming up with a variety of ways to quite frankly, 361 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: let viewers off the hook. So, for example, big fans 362 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: of C. S I. They will tell you, well, I 363 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: don't really like the violence. I just watch it because 364 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm interested in forensic technology. Or fans of the Law 365 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: and Order franchise will say, yeah, it's very violent, but 366 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: I learned so much about the legal process from watching it. 367 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: Popular culture provides them with reasons to justify their interest 368 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: in violence, and so after a while that violence becomes 369 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: just an invisible part of the background. We don't want 370 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: to think about it, we're not made to think about it, 371 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: so there's no reason for us to see it. And 372 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: Schmidt says media often popularizes or even glorifies serial killers. 373 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: Not long after I moved to the US, the Science 374 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: of the Lamb's film came out, and the Night of 375 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: the Oscars broadcast began with Billy Crystal being wheeled out 376 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: onto the stage with a hockey mask on like Hannibal 377 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: Lector in the film, and now your host, Mr Billy Crystal, 378 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm having some of the academy over for dinner. Care 379 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: to join me? And the entire broadcast was basically a 380 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: tribute to that character. So I'm sitting there watching this 381 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking to myself, what does it say about 382 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: temporary American society that this type of event is dedicated 383 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: to a fictional, cannibalistic serial killer. And I realized at 384 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: that point. The popularity of the film version of the 385 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: Silence of the Lambs can be explained, among other things, 386 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 1: by the fact that the film is very, very clever 387 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: in allowing us to maintain some kind of identification with 388 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: Hannibal Lectera. He's highly educated, he is apparently a genius, 389 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: and in the film he quite literally walks off into 390 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: the sunset, almost like you know, the hero walking off 391 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: into the sunset. I do wish we could chat lander, 392 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: but I'm having an old fan for dinner, and it's 393 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: true he is the hero of the film. To some extent. 394 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: There are parallels between the depictions of the Zodiac in 395 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter. The Zodiac is often presented as a criminal mastermind, 396 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: an expert marksman, and a crafter of uncrackable codes and stories, 397 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: often for us on him to the exclusion of telling 398 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: the stories of his victims or examining why his story 399 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: is important to tell. Now, if you can trast a 400 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: film like Signs to the Lambs with a film like 401 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: Natural Born Killers, it deals with many of the same issues, 402 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: but rubs on noses in the fact that we make 403 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: serial killers celebricies. That's not something the audience wants to 404 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: be reminded of because it makes us feel guilty, It 405 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: makes us feel uncomfortable, and it makes us have to 406 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: ask difficult questions of ourselves about why we find this 407 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: entertain him. Popular culture about serial killers is not dedicated 408 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: to making us ask difficult questions. Instead, it gives us 409 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: easy answers. That's what we find appealing about it. Criminologist 410 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: James Fox says most people's fascination with serial killers comes 411 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: in three forms. There are some who are fascinated because 412 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: they had iify with the victims, and they want to 413 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: make sure that they're not the next one. And and 414 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: then you have a few who enjoy fantasizing about what 415 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: it would be like to do what that person did. 416 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: The other form of fascination, which is the most common, 417 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: is it's just so different from everyday life. People can 418 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: be entertained by real stories of real serial killers in 419 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: the same way they get entertained by someone like Hannibal Elector, 420 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: who's a fictional character. The serial murder is so out 421 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: of the ordinary that it might as well be fiction. 422 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: Then for most people true crime and crime fiction it 423 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: feels the same, and it's just for them entertainment because 424 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: they don't feel personally threatened. Most people will never ever 425 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: encounter someone like the Zodiac. Having covered crime for decades, 426 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: reporter Kevin Fagan avoids glorifying the Zodiac. I think it's disgusting. Glamora, 427 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: someone of freaking kills people come on. When I was 428 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: a young reporter, I thought, oh wow, this is really fascinating. 429 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: I've watched people burned to death. I've stood over bleeding 430 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: bodies while they bled out. I've been shot at the 431 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: Glamor goes away. I can't even watch TV crime shows. 432 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, let's have entertainment with the death. When 433 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: you talk to survivors of victims have been killed, you 434 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: get it. You get that this is not fun. There's 435 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: nothing fun about murder and you know wacky ciphers and 436 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: letters that you know taunt and say, I like hunting 437 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: the most dangerous game. Yeah, great, the guy belongs in 438 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: freaking prison. America was going through big changes around the 439 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: time of the Zodiac murders. Between nineteen sixty and nineteen seventy, 440 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: America's violent crime rate more than doubled, and, aside from 441 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: a few temporary dips, violent crime continued to increase until 442 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: it peaked in Since then, it's fallen dramatically, and today 443 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: violent crime levels are actually about where they were when 444 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: the Zodiac's Bay Area crimes started. The number of serial 445 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: killers has followed a similar trend as violent crime overall, 446 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: rising dramatically in the nineteen sixties and peaking in the 447 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties before dropping off. There are still serial 448 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: killers out there, but because of advancements in technology from 449 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: cell phones to forensic DNA techniques, most serial killers get 450 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: caught after just a few crimes and so rarely make 451 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: the headlines. Despite our society getting much safer, our fears 452 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: about crime have heightened. Gallop Poles show that over the 453 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: last two decades, most Americans have felt crime was increasing, 454 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: when in fact the opposite was true. Here's Michael Butterfield. 455 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: I know I'm terrified of serial killers, even though the 456 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: odds of me being killed by one are extremely low. 457 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: But I think that some way, it's a way in 458 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: which we confront our fears. It's easier to look at 459 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: a true crime case from afar than it is to 460 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: be in it yourself. When I was a kid, I 461 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: was interested in true crime, but people used to think 462 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: that was weird. Now true crime is very popular. It's 463 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: very trendy, and I don't know why, but I think 464 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: that we all need to remember that this is not entertainment, 465 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: that it is a tragedy and treated as such. There 466 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: might be some fascinating and sensational elements of the case. 467 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: It certainly is compelling, but it's also a very real, 468 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: human tragedy that continues to affect real people today. Over 469 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: the years, I've talked to some of the friends and 470 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: family of the victims, and it has a tremendous impact 471 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: on them, even to this day. It's bad enough to 472 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: have a loved one or friend murdered and have that 473 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: murder remain unsolved, to go through life without any kind 474 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: of closure, but it's another thing to see that murder 475 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: repeated in re enactments over and over and over again 476 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: for decades, and to have every aspect of the crime, 477 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: every aspect of the victim's life, scrutinized under a microscope, 478 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: and every time it comes up, nothing comes of it. 479 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: So that kind of frustration, that kind of grief, is 480 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: unique in many ways. I don't think a lot of 481 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: us can really understand what that's really like unless we 482 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: go through it ourselves, and hopefully we won't. Dean Farren 483 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: was the husband of Darlene Farren, the woman who was 484 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: shot and killed on July nine, sixty nine at Blue 485 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: Rock Springs. It was difficult. I had a girl take 486 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: care of one thing that I remembered. It my boss 487 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: and we were friends at the time, but we turned 488 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: out to be best friends over the years. We went 489 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: through a lot of weddings and divorces and deaths and stuff, 490 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: and I worked for him for twenty years. So but anyway, 491 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: he came over that next morning and banging on my 492 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: door and I said, I don't want to get up. 493 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: I got nothing to live for, you know, I just 494 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: all depressed. And he said, get up off you're lazy ass. 495 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: You gotta eat today because you gotta ship tomorrow. It 496 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: was his way to day life goes on. You know, 497 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: you gotta make the best of what you got. And 498 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm reading that kind of kickstarre to me. I guess 499 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: got me going and said, okay, okay, I gotta go on. 500 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: I'll but we did so at that time, I I 501 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: didn't know where I was gone. Okay, I'm angry about 502 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: the situation, But who'd you get mad at her? How 503 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: do you express that angry? You can't just punch anybody, 504 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: or there's really nothing you can do, and it's kind 505 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: of wait, now, okay, the police will take care of 506 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: this and then we'll find out what what happened. Here 507 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: we are fifty years later and nothing yet. Last episode, 508 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: we spoke to investigator Paul Holes about his work on 509 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer case. He's spoken with many survivors 510 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: of horrific crimes when we caught the Golden State Killer. 511 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: For these victims, for some of them, there was that 512 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: instant peace of mind that he is not going to 513 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: come back, and for many of them, they at least 514 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: had an answer as to who. But it doesn't erase 515 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: the trauma, and it doesn't bring the loved one back. 516 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: This term closure, you know, which is a controversial term. 517 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: These people don't experience closure like that part of my 518 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: life is over. It will live with them for the 519 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: rest of their lives. If the Zodiac is identified, I 520 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: would expect that those who survived the Zodiac's attacks, or 521 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: those victims families, they're not going to get a sense 522 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: of closure. And they know that. These people know that 523 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: they're not going to be okay, I can now just 524 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: erase that chapter out of my life and be happy. 525 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: But they will at least get an answer, you know, 526 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: and maybe they'll get justice, but it's not going to 527 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: change the trauma. And and that's for the people that 528 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: have not lived that, you know, that's maybe the hard 529 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: thing for them to understand. People want endings. Endings are 530 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: psychologically satisfying. So I hope that the case will be 531 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: solved and that ending will be provided to us. The 532 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: alternative is to at least find out what the hell 533 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: actually happened, because as an investigator, and Arlow told me, 534 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: when you're doing a homicide investigation, the first thing you 535 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: have to do is find out what actually happened. I 536 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: think the best way to end the show is by 537 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: telling the truth, and that's not usually what happens. People 538 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: claim that they have solved the case. They say, this 539 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: is the killer. I've identified the killer, and then some 540 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: people are satisfied by that because ultimately, what people want 541 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: as an answer, and some people will take any answer 542 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: as opposed to the correct answer. Each passing anniversary of 543 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: the case means that we've lost another year with no resolution, 544 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: and it often means that we lose some of the 545 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: people who are involved in the case. We lose their insight, 546 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: their experiences, their memories, and a lot of information that 547 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: might help us understand that case. Today, there's often a 548 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: sentiment among people who are not involved in these cases 549 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: where they seem to think that there should be a 550 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: time where you move on, that you should let it go. 551 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: And I think that the families of the victims would 552 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: argue other wise. So what hope remains for the Zodiac case. 553 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: Someone could still come forward and confess on their deathbed, 554 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: revealing Paul Stein's driver's license as proof, or that evidence 555 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: could turn up in an attic or an estate sale. 556 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: The unsolved ciphers could still reveal an identity or some clue, 557 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: or they could just be gibberish. Maybe, as we discussed 558 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: last episode, DNA tests of a letter will finally pinpoint 559 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 1: a suspect, or maybe he'll be identified through DNA from 560 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: a seemingly unrelated case. I think it's very possible that 561 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: he committed other crimes under another persona. I don't think 562 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: most people would believe that someone like the Zodiac could 563 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: simply stop killing, So we have to take him at 564 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: his word that he continued to kill, only he made 565 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: his crimes look like accidents or robberies. If that's the case, 566 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: the Zodiac could have continued killing for a long time 567 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: and we wouldn't know anything about it, because the only 568 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: way we really knew he was attached to these crimes 569 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: in the first place was because he called up the 570 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: police or set letters to tell us. Regardless, we're running 571 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: out of time to set the record straight. People are 572 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: working on the case today. It's an active investigation. Police 573 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 1: are trying to find a DNA match. Reporters like Kevin 574 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: Fagan continue to cover developments, and the zodiologists chased down 575 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: every lead they can find. If he's still alive, he 576 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: might be watching all this and he might be terrified 577 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: because look what happened to Joseph Gangelo in the Golden 578 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: State Killer case. If they can find one relative of his, 579 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: it's all over. Then all they have to do is 580 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: just make out the family trees who fits the right 581 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: age the description boom. So he's probably very worried, and 582 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: he should be because people like me. I'm not gonna 583 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: stop people at did VPD, did San Francisco Police Department. 584 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: That would be the biggest thing they could ever do 585 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: is catch the Zodiac. And now that they know that 586 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 1: it can be done with the Golden State Killer, there's 587 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: every reason to keep trying. In Every Hope Monster, The 588 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer is a fifteen episode podcast produced by iHeart 589 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: Radio How Stuff Works in Tinderfoot TV. Johnald Alright and 590 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: I are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside 591 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: producers Meredith Stepman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason Hope 592 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: is executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works, along 593 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: with producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Kybrick, and Josh Thane. 594 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick is our host. 595 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity set. If you 596 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: haven't already, make sure to check out the first season 597 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta child murders 598 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: from the late seventies to the early eighties. Download the 599 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: tin episode season right now. Have questions or comments, email 600 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: us at Monster at how Stuff Works dot com, or 601 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: you can call us at one eight five six six 602 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: six seven. Thanks for listening. If you feel ready to 603 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: keep going on this journey, you can go to Michael 604 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: Butterfield's website Zodiac Killer Facts dot com. You can connect 605 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: with the Zodiologists on Tom Void's forum at Zodiac Killer 606 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: dot com, and if you have a tip about the case, 607 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: you can call our number one eight three three to 608 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: five six six six seven. I think the most important 609 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: thing someone can do is cut the facts away from 610 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: the fiction and focus on the facts. And I think 611 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: this podcast has done a lot to help people in 612 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: that regard. But the simple fact is you should question everything. 613 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: There's a a great line by a journalist who said, 614 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: if your mother tells you that she loves you, you 615 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: should still do your research and check it out. Anyone 616 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: who is interested in learning more about the case, I 617 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: would recommend that they spend time reading the actual police reports, 618 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: the actual FBI files, and other official documents that they 619 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: spend time looking at the evidence and using common sense 620 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: and logic to examine all the information that's out there, 621 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: because the true story of the Zodiac case is right 622 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: there in those police reports. So that's it. Our regular 623 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: season is over, but we're going to continue following new 624 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: developments about the Zodiac and we'll be back soon with 625 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: a whole new case. Thanks for listening.