1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,920
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 1: tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello, everyone,

4
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,480
Speaker 1: welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and

5
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: I am an editor at how stuff works dot com.

6
00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 1: Sitting across from me, as he typically does unless he

7
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,360
Speaker 1: happens to be standing at the time, is senior writer

8
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I suited Ben Affleck. Do I even need

9
00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 1: a reason? Identify the source of the quote and you

10
00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,120
Speaker 1: get Okay, you don't get anything, but you know, feel

11
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,680
Speaker 1: free to write in Yes, it's patently absurd to suggest

12
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,959
Speaker 1: you would get something. See what I did there. Yeah,

13
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the patent wars today and actually this, uh,

14
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: this topic comes to us courtesy of a little listener mail.

15
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,880
Speaker 1: This listener mail come from Jim, and Jim says, I

16
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 1: know you did some podcasts on i P that's intellectual

17
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 1: property for everyone out there, but I don't remember if

18
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 1: you did one on patents exclusively. If not, you may

19
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: want to consider one. I'm raring this because of the

20
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 1: past weeks this American Life on NPR, when patents attack

21
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,440
Speaker 1: it's about how patent troll companies that buy up patents

22
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,559
Speaker 1: with broad software coverage such as this patent covers real

23
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,680
Speaker 1: time backup of files, and then they sue any software

24
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,000
Speaker 1: company large or small that maybe doing backups. You wouldn't

25
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 1: want to retell the whole story, but the idea of

26
00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,800
Speaker 1: patentrolling could be a part of the describing patents were

27
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,680
Speaker 1: you to do a podcast on. So, yeah, we thought

28
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: we'd talked a bit about patents, and before we really

29
00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 1: jump into it, I wanted to point out that at

30
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com we have a great article

31
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 1: on how patents work and it really breaks down what

32
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: patents are and and their purpose. And we're gonna kind

33
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 1: of cover some of that first, I think, because that's

34
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: important to understand before we go on into you know,

35
00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,720
Speaker 1: patent trolls and nonpracticing, into into ease and that kind

36
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 1: of thing. So, Chris, are you comfortable in telling everybody

37
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,120
Speaker 1: what a patent is? Of course, patents come off of

38
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 1: the idea of, uh, the ability for someone to protect

39
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,600
Speaker 1: their work. It's sort of similar in some ways to copyright, um,

40
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,679
Speaker 1: but you know, it depends on what it is. Now,

41
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,560
Speaker 1: if you have a if you've written a novel. You

42
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: can't patent that, but you can't copyright it. And that's

43
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 1: a way to protect your work so that you can

44
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,520
Speaker 1: sell it and make some money off of it and

45
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 1: reap the rewards with that. Patents apply to those people

46
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,800
Speaker 1: who are and I always think of them as inventors,

47
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily inventors. It could be engineers or

48
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,280
Speaker 1: other people. Um. In this case, we'll be talking a

49
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: lot about software patents, which, by the way, before we

50
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,799
Speaker 1: even jump into it any further, I should point out

51
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 1: there is no such thing as a software patent as

52
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: an it's not a separate thing. A software patent is

53
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,080
Speaker 1: a patent. It's just that it's a patent that and

54
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,080
Speaker 1: it covers software. But there's no distinction between a software

55
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,320
Speaker 1: patent and any other type. No, no, no, it's not

56
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,520
Speaker 1: shorthand there are people who will get into this. There

57
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 1: are people who believe that software should not be allowed

58
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,760
Speaker 1: to be patent, should not be you know, fall into

59
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,079
Speaker 1: that category. But that patent, I'm going to be doing

60
00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, it's it's okay. Yeah. Um, so no,

61
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,280
Speaker 1: a patented piper picked a peck up patents, yeah, pickled

62
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: patents perhaps, Um, so yeah, patent basically is is a protection.

63
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 1: It's a it's a registry for a particular type of thing. Um,

64
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 1: you have a better mousetrap. Perhaps you register with a

65
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,800
Speaker 1: patent office. Yes, and in the United States that the

66
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,520
Speaker 1: United States Patent Office. Yes. Yes, And basically somebody reviews

67
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 1: your application in which you describe what it is, how

68
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 1: it works, what the parts are, how you know all

69
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 1: these things. Um, and there's some really fascinating in the

70
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 1: patent files. You can look at all these different diagrams

71
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 1: for different inventions. Really kind of cool. But anyway, Um,

72
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,560
Speaker 1: once a a someone has reviewed that and says, yes,

73
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 1: this does not work like the other ones before, it

74
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,000
Speaker 1: is completely the criteria that is necessary to have a patent. Yes.

75
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,400
Speaker 1: Then then it can be patented and on and that

76
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: is on file as part of the public record. And

77
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 1: if someone makes something that looks just like the one

78
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 1: that you invented and works the same way and tries

79
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,279
Speaker 1: to make money off of it, you can see their

80
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,559
Speaker 1: pantsil right, or you can license the patent to someone

81
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,360
Speaker 1: else so that they can make something that's not the

82
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 1: way people do it is how some people do it.

83
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,440
Speaker 1: It's yeah, Uh, software patents in particular have an issue

84
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,039
Speaker 1: with this, but we'll we'll get into that. That's that's

85
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 1: the idea is that you can protect your work so

86
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,760
Speaker 1: that you may make money off of it, and other

87
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,280
Speaker 1: people cannot take your idea and make money off of

88
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,720
Speaker 1: it without your permission. Exactly. So, if I were to

89
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,200
Speaker 1: patent a an invention and Chris wanted to be able

90
00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,360
Speaker 1: to build that invention, we might be come to an agreement,

91
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,360
Speaker 1: a licensing agreement, where he can use my idea and

92
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,320
Speaker 1: put it into reality. Because here's here's another thing about patents.

93
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 1: You might come up with a brilliant idea brilliant invention.

94
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: I've all the time, and so you come up with

95
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: a brilliant invention, but you lack the resources to make

96
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: that invention. You just you you know how to do it.

97
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 1: You've got all the ideas in place, but you don't

98
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 1: have the infrastructure to build this thing. Sad but true.

99
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,120
Speaker 1: I don't have a manufacturing facility in my backyard, right.

100
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,839
Speaker 1: So in that case, you would perhaps patent your invention

101
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 1: or submit it to the patent office for for approval,

102
00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 1: and then once you've got approval, that's your ticket to

103
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 1: getting that that idea licensed by a company or organization

104
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: that has the capacity to put it into reality. Right,

105
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,719
Speaker 1: So you license the idea to widget coho goes off

106
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,160
Speaker 1: and makes them and packages them, and in return, you

107
00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 1: get a cut of the money that they make off

108
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 1: of it because they hold a license for your patent.

109
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,920
Speaker 1: Actually that that works very similar to the way it

110
00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 1: works for writers and musicians who license their work to

111
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 1: a publisher and then they get part of the So

112
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,839
Speaker 1: I mean they're not completely dissiminar And what's also interesting

113
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: is that you can't you don't just have the option

114
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 1: to license patents. You can actually sell a patent. Yes

115
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,040
Speaker 1: you can, because a patent is essentially property. Yes you know,

116
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 1: it's intellectual property, intellectual property, and just like any other property,

117
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,839
Speaker 1: you have the right to dispose of it as you wish.

118
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: So you can sell that patent to a company. If

119
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 1: a company wants to make a certain type of product

120
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 1: and you hold the patent that is, or a patent

121
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 1: that is instrumental in that product getting made, that company

122
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 1: might approach you and say, hey, if we drop a

123
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 1: truckload of cash at your front door, will you sell

124
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,080
Speaker 1: us this patent? And you can choose to sell it,

125
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,600
Speaker 1: or you can choose to hold onto it truckload of

126
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: So so there are companies out there that are just

127
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: in the business of buying and selling patents. That's what

128
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,120
Speaker 1: they do. It's almost like it's almost like trading stocks

129
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: or some other or real estate. Really it's it's trading

130
00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,120
Speaker 1: property and that's their main purpose. And that's also led

131
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,280
Speaker 1: to some sticky situations and some name calling in various industries,

132
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,760
Speaker 1: the technology industry being a good example, because clearly technology

133
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: it's all about innovation and invention. Yep, you know. And

134
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,640
Speaker 1: I actually thought of a of a real life example

135
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,360
Speaker 1: of these two models and they're actually uh in well,

136
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: their their photos are in the room with us because

137
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: Edison tried to He had all these inventions and he

138
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,800
Speaker 1: actually worked on building a company which is uh, you know,

139
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 1: there was Edison General Electric. There version of General Electric

140
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,600
Speaker 1: today is not exactly anywhere. It's complicated. We'll have to

141
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 1: do an episode on Edison at some point. Yeah, but

142
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,240
Speaker 1: um yeah, I mean he he had a company that

143
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, he built his company to make his stuff

144
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 1: essentially and to wire people's homes and and do that.

145
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 1: Um where Tesla actually worked with Westinghouse. Westinghouse licensed his

146
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 1: patents and together they sort of I mean it was

147
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,320
Speaker 1: like Tesla was the inventor in Westinghouse was the industrialist

148
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: who built on that work, but he licensed those those

149
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 1: patents from Tesla, and there was I mean, there was

150
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,080
Speaker 1: some controversy with Tesla and patents. Tesla held some patents

151
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 1: that he he was issued the patents by the United

152
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,720
Speaker 1: States Patent Office and then later the Patent Office overturned

153
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,839
Speaker 1: that decision and revoked his patents. Yeah, and so right,

154
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of discussion about how the

155
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:49,280
Speaker 1: Patent Office isn't it's it's more than just a regulatory office.

156
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,079
Speaker 1: There's a political element that runs through this as well. Um,

157
00:08:54,559 --> 00:09:00,439
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's uh, it's complicated. Now, let's talk a

158
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 1: little bit about what you have to prove in order

159
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 1: to to have a patent, have your your invention considered

160
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,439
Speaker 1: for a patent, to get patent approval. In order for

161
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 1: your for you to get a patent, your invention needs

162
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,599
Speaker 1: to be sufficiently novel m. That means it has to

163
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 1: be unlike other things that came before it enough to

164
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 1: justify a patent. Now, we should also say a lot

165
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,079
Speaker 1: of this is subjective. You know, it's That's another part

166
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 1: of patents that's a little tricky is that you know

167
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,559
Speaker 1: that there aren't any there's no real quantifiable measurement for

168
00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 1: how novels something like this is seven percent novel. Therefore

169
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,400
Speaker 1: it meets our threshold. Um, that's not really possible. Yeah, Basically,

170
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: someone is looking at these patents. It's a human and

171
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,280
Speaker 1: humans are known to be subjective. And also the you know,

172
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,319
Speaker 1: it's depending on how complex this invention is. Uh, the

173
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:59,120
Speaker 1: person who's reviewing the patent may have some difficulty deciding

174
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,199
Speaker 1: how novel it is compared to something else, if especially

175
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 1: depending on the language that's being used. Now, another thing

176
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: that a patent that the invention must be is non

177
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,839
Speaker 1: obvious to someone. Uh, someone who's knowledgeable in the art,

178
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: is the way we say it. So in other words,

179
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 1: you can't patent an invention or a process that is

180
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,200
Speaker 1: patently obvious. You can't do something that you couldn't patent,

181
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,679
Speaker 1: like a lever, and you're patenting the process of pulling

182
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,320
Speaker 1: the lever, Well, that's obvious. You can't do that. Um.

183
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 1: And this this is a tough concept as well, and

184
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 1: it's one that we see brought up in courts a

185
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,720
Speaker 1: lot where the the one side will accuse another side

186
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 1: of you know, let's say that Company A is suing

187
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 1: Company B for patent infringement, and Company B is contesting

188
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 1: the patents in the first place, saying that they are

189
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,199
Speaker 1: patenting obvious procedures, and it's it can be really difficult

190
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,120
Speaker 1: to prove whether or not something is obvious, because if

191
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: that particular procedure didn't exist before Company A patent did it,

192
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,760
Speaker 1: then there's an argument there that, hey, the reason why

193
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 1: it didn't exist before is because it wasn't obvious. It's

194
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 1: obvious now because we invented it, you know, And that's

195
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 1: a circular argument thing. I blame the boogie woogie bogle

196
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,719
Speaker 1: boy of Company B. But I mean, for example, to

197
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,520
Speaker 1: swiped unlock, that's a good one to say swiped to unlock,

198
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,880
Speaker 1: which is I believe Apple has that patent for swiping

199
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 1: to unlock on a on a touch screen device like

200
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 1: a smartphone or a tablet. Uh. There have been companies

201
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 1: and lawyers who have argued that swiped unlock is not

202
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't meet the criteria of being non obvious. But

203
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,120
Speaker 1: then Apple would say, well, where was it before? Then

204
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,320
Speaker 1: who if if it was? If it if it was obvious,

205
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,920
Speaker 1: then why were we the first to do it? Um

206
00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,280
Speaker 1: at least that that's that's oversimplifying the argument by many

207
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,040
Speaker 1: leaps and bounds, but essentially that's what they're saying, Yeah,

208
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,679
Speaker 1: I did. Working on issues like this makes me glad

209
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,959
Speaker 1: that I am not one of the people who has

210
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,199
Speaker 1: to decide whether patents get approved or not, because it

211
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,719
Speaker 1: in some cases, I imagine that pardon my use of

212
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 1: this word in the context, it's not the same, uh.

213
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,040
Speaker 1: I think for some inventions or concepts, it would be

214
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 1: more obvious that this is something that is completely different

215
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 1: than other things, and then just having to educate yourself

216
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 1: about what goes on with this particular thing or the

217
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,839
Speaker 1: software or the functionality. I'm glad I don't have to

218
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,839
Speaker 1: make those decisions. See here at how Stuff Works. We

219
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,000
Speaker 1: write about how stuff works, But if you were to

220
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,560
Speaker 1: be the ideal patent regulator, you'd have to know how

221
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,240
Speaker 1: everything works, because you would have to know if the

222
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 1: invention that's coming towards you, if it's just replicating something

223
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 1: that's already out there you know, or or you would

224
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 1: look at and say that truly is novel, hasn't happened before.

225
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,560
Speaker 1: So other criteria that the invention must meet. Now we've

226
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:08,920
Speaker 1: said it has to be new, it has to be

227
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,360
Speaker 1: non obvious. It also has to be useful. That the

228
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 1: invention has to have a use. It means that it

229
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,199
Speaker 1: serves some sort of purpose and it actually works. You

230
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,439
Speaker 1: can't patent something that does not work, that can't be

231
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 1: demonstrated to work. You also, you cannot patent any sort

232
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 1: of um element that occurs in nature, like you couldn't

233
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 1: patent copper. It has to be man made. And then uh,

234
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: you have to you can't use unproven ideas two in

235
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,800
Speaker 1: your patent. So anything that is contested by science, anything

236
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: that that isn't proven by science theoret that you should

237
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,440
Speaker 1: not be able to get a patent on. So, for example,

238
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,040
Speaker 1: a perpetual motion machine should in theory not get a

239
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 1: patent because science, uh tells us that such a thing

240
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 1: is not possible, even though we still have people who

241
00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: pursue the dream of creating a perpetual motion machine. Leonardo

242
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,480
Speaker 1: da Vinci himself tried to do this with a weighted

243
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,559
Speaker 1: wheel and it didn't work out for him. And he

244
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,439
Speaker 1: actually said back that back in the day, which I

245
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 1: think was a Thursday, that perpetual motion was an impossibility. Uh.

246
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,320
Speaker 1: And ever since we've been you know, still trying to

247
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 1: do it, no one, no one has proven him wrong,

248
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: by the way. Uh. So these are the criteria that

249
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 1: your invention must meet in order to get a patent,

250
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,880
Speaker 1: and it can take years from the time you apply

251
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,080
Speaker 1: for a patent to the time you're issued a patent.

252
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,960
Speaker 1: And UH that raises the question, Okay, well what happens

253
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 1: during that that span. What if someone else comes up

254
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,800
Speaker 1: with an invention that uses your idea and you haven't

255
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,320
Speaker 1: received a patent yet. Uh, that can get tricky. Sometimes

256
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 1: when you get the patent, you can then pursue legal

257
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,920
Speaker 1: threats against whomever is using that that particular idea within

258
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 1: an invention. Um. Oh. And also if there is something

259
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 1: called prior art, then you may not be able to

260
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: get a patent. And prior art just means that there's

261
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 1: an example of the idea you have, the invention you

262
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 1: have that already exists out in the wild and it

263
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,120
Speaker 1: there's you know, it has to have existed for a

264
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 1: while and it has to have been publicized for it too.

265
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 1: For this account, So what you're saying is that if

266
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 1: there were, um, someone who filed for a patent, and

267
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,840
Speaker 1: somebody comes along and says, no, I came up with

268
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 1: that idea two months before before you did, and they

269
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: had sketched it out on a napkin and published it somewhere,

270
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: were published maybe, and it would have to be more

271
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 1: than two months. I think. I think the minimum is

272
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 1: at least a year. But let's say that Let's say

273
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 1: that that I patent an invention, and or I tried

274
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 1: a patent and invention, but it's discovered that there was

275
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,040
Speaker 1: a magazine article that had a prototype divid ice uh

276
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: detailed in that magazine, and that prototype device closely resembles

277
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 1: my patent, the the application, the invention that I'm applying

278
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 1: for a patent. The two things are very similar. That

279
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 1: would could be an example of prior art. And if

280
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 1: I were to try and get a patent, then someone

281
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 1: could prove that this other device essentially does the same

282
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 1: thing that my idea does, my patent might be invalid.

283
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: So do you happen to know just can you guess

284
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,760
Speaker 1: who in human history holds the most patents in at

285
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: least in the United States? M hmm, it's not Steve Jobs.

286
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 1: No older, go go further back I think a lot

287
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 1: of people would would be sitting here going no Edison.

288
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 1: Edison would be who I would guess. Yes, one patents, Yeah,

289
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 1: second place goes to someone else. So tell me if

290
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 1: you can tell me who is in second place, and

291
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,920
Speaker 1: I'll give you a hint. It can be found in

292
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 1: how patents work. But if you can let me know,

293
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,760
Speaker 1: that'd be awesome because it proves that you're actually paying

294
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 1: attention and not just falling asleep to text stuff. We

295
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,760
Speaker 1: love you guys, by the way. We hope you have

296
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,119
Speaker 1: pleasant dreams anyway. Yeah, but you, however, are not allowed

297
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 1: to go back to sleep. So now we've covered the

298
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 1: basics of what a patent is, what it does, and

299
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 1: why you would want one, and and patents secure your uh,

300
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: your rights to that idea for a limited amount of time.

301
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,720
Speaker 1: Right you You can't hold the idea, Yeah, you don't

302
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,119
Speaker 1: hold a patent in perpetuity. It doesn't last forever. It

303
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 1: will last for a certain number of years, and it

304
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 1: all depends on where you live in the world. Like

305
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,720
Speaker 1: the different patent laws are have different amounts of time

306
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,160
Speaker 1: where your patent is protected um and ideally during that time,

307
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,280
Speaker 1: no one would be able to infringe upon your patent

308
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 1: without the the threat of a loss. Not keep in mind,

309
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 1: a patent doesn't automatically protect you from someone infringing on

310
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 1: your idea. The patent just gives you a recourse if

311
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,679
Speaker 1: someone does infringe on your idea. And patent lawsuits are

312
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,119
Speaker 1: really expensive. So if you are an independent inventor and

313
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,200
Speaker 1: you do not license your idea out, and you don't

314
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,800
Speaker 1: have a lot of resources at your disposal, and someone

315
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 1: starts to infringe upon your idea, you you might be

316
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,639
Speaker 1: at luck because you might not have the money to

317
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: pursue a lawsuit. And uh, some whould argue, well, this

318
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: helps license out ideas and it means that those ideas

319
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 1: will actually propagate through society because you know, you've got

320
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: an incentive to share your idea. Now you're sharing it

321
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 1: for money, You're you're licensing it, and it means that,

322
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: uh that we all benefit as a result because this

323
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: idea gets actually put into use as opposed to let's

324
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 1: say I never patent my idea. Let's say I never

325
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 1: share my idea, Well, then no one benefits from it.

326
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 1: That so the idea the patent office is really to

327
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,639
Speaker 1: encourage people to share their ideas. It's just that it

328
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 1: hasn't always worked out that way, and that's what leads

329
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: us to the patent wars. Yeah, and this has come

330
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 1: up a lot recently, especially with UM Google's acquisition of

331
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,160
Speaker 1: Motorola and the battles going on between Apple and HTC

332
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: and Microsoft and some of the others. And We've had

333
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 1: several people mentioned this to us, and I've seen comments

334
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 1: on on our Facebook page um about one company or

335
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: another being a brat. Basically, this isn't, by any stretch

336
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 1: of the imagination, something that just started happening. No, No,

337
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 1: it's it's getting a lot more publicity now because the

338
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 1: companies are that are involved are big consumer companies in

339
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 1: one way or another. They may not directly create consumer products,

340
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 1: because you would say that, all right, well, Google doesn't

341
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: yet make anything specific for consumers, really, but they do

342
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: provide the operating system that gets used in a lot

343
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: of consumer products, so you would say, well, this is

344
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: still kind of a consumer issue that that's probably why

345
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 1: the publicity is so big. But these sort of things

346
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: have been going on in behind the scenes for for decades.

347
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: It's just that now it's really coming to a head

348
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 1: as companies fight over each other to try and and

349
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,440
Speaker 1: buy up other companies just not just too, but primarily

350
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: to get hold of the patent portfolio that that company

351
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 1: might have. And the reason to get patent port portfolios

352
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 1: there they're too. Two main reasons that a a company

353
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 1: that's a practicing entity might want to get hold of

354
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 1: a patent portfolio. The main one is defense, which is

355
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 1: you get as many patents as you can so that

356
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: if another company comes after you claiming that you're infringing

357
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 1: upon their intellectual property, you can return fire and say, well,

358
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 1: this is the intellectual property we own and you are

359
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,239
Speaker 1: in turn infringing upon that. And hopefully what happens as

360
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: a result of this is the two companies, through arbitration

361
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: and probably litigation, come to an agreement where both sides say,

362
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: all right, I'm totally stealing ideas A through G and

363
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,880
Speaker 1: you're totally stealing ideas H through our and we will

364
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: exchange this amount of money and then say we're all cool. Truce. Right.

365
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 1: And if you if now, if you have one major

366
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: company that doesn't hold a lot of patents and another

367
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: company that does hold patents, then the what's going to

368
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: happen is you just the company that holds a lot

369
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: of patents, it's going to sue the other major company

370
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: for money, and you don't. If you don't have your

371
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: own large patent portfolio to fall back on. As a

372
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: sort of a mutually assured destruction kind of approach, you

373
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 1: you get run over. You know, you you essentially unless

374
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,880
Speaker 1: the the courts decide otherwise, who essentially have to cough

375
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: up money and you may or may not have to

376
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: even discontinue the production of certain products. Yep. And so

377
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: that's kind of why we see these big companies scooping

378
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: up uh, smaller companies in order to get patents. Sometimes

379
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: it's for protection. Sometimes it's with an eye to go

380
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 1: after a competitor and perhaps put that competitor in a

381
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 1: a bad position. It's it's almost anti competitive when you

382
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 1: get down to it. And as a result, you have

383
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people saying, well, this is really stifling

384
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 1: innovation because by going after another company and saying that

385
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: you can't make any of this because this part of

386
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: it infringes upon our patents. Uh, you you're taking away

387
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: things that are actually valuable in the marketplace. And it

388
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 1: may very well be true that let's say that we

389
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 1: have an operating system, that's a good one to go with. Okay,

390
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: we're going to get into the software patents anyway. So

391
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: you have an operating system where one aspect of that

392
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: operating system appears to infringe upon a patent. Well, depending

393
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: on how the lawsuit is worded and the decision of

394
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: the courts, that operating system might end up having to

395
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: be completely scrapped or rewritten or taken off the market,

396
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: which means you lose everything. You don't just lose that

397
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: one element that was infringing upon the patent, you lose

398
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: all the other elements of that operating system. So you're

399
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: losing out on innovation. This is why we're getting a

400
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 1: lot of criticism directed at these patent wars. And another

401
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: related element is that there are companies that some people

402
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: refer to as patent trolls, which is a it's a

403
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: complicated that's a complicated term as well, because it means

404
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: more than one thing. Yeah, and I think of that

405
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: I um, and this is again just one concept of UM.

406
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: When I think of a patentrol, I think of a

407
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 1: company that has purchased patents from someone else. Basically, they

408
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: had some money up front, they bought patent rights. They

409
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: don't do anything, but why since patents and they are

410
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: basically hoping somebody will infringe upon them so that they

411
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: can sue the living daylights out of them and make

412
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: money that way. But they don't. It's it's not like

413
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: where they are making in an iPhone and they are

414
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: doing that and somebody else infringes on the patent. This

415
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,479
Speaker 1: is somebody in my head. The classical patentrol is literally

416
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: just waiting for somebody to infringe on their patents so

417
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: they can take a shot at them. Right. That's that's

418
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: usually called a nonpracticing entity, and that means that this

419
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: is a company, uh that does not have any intent

420
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: on acting upon a patent other than to sue the

421
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: pants off anyone who infringes on it. So they have

422
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: no plans on actually making anything, just the plan on

423
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: on suing someone who tries to make something similar to it.

424
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 1: And they may not even have plans to license that

425
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: idea out because they could potentially make more money through

426
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: suing a company than they could through licen and sing

427
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: the patent the patented invention. This is why there's an

428
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: amazing article called the Broken Patent System. How we got

429
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: here and how to fix It? By niel I Patel,

430
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: formerly of Engadget Now of this is my next I

431
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: highly recommend you read this article. It is a long article,

432
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: but it's it's very comprehensive and Kneeli makes a great

433
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: case for He actually says, you know, the patent system

434
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: isn't broken. We're the ones who just kind of are

435
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: broken because we're not using it the way it was

436
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: designed to be used. People are gaming the system, and

437
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: that uh that really, you know, you have to ask

438
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: the right questions and see how things are being used

439
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: in order to understand why we are where we're at.

440
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: Kneeli suggests that perhaps one thing we could look at

441
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: is maybe we do breakout software patents so they're a

442
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: little different from the traditional patents in that software patents

443
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: might last uh there there time span might be shorter

444
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: for a software patent, like you couldn't sit on it

445
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: as long as you would a patent for and and

446
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: a physical invention. And because the nature of software changes

447
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: so rapidly that by the time a patent expires, and

448
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 1: that idea becomes essentially free for anyone to use, uh

449
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: to implement in their own inventions. Once you reach that

450
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: point while software has evolved so far that it's almost

451
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: obsolete anyway. So that's one thing that Kneeli suggests, But

452
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: he also suggests looking at a way so that people

453
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: who use patents to sue other companies can only get

454
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: a limited amount of money and damages, you know, So

455
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: putting limits on how much money you can get through

456
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: suing someone for a patent, and that, in Nili's argument,

457
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: would mean that companies would have more of an incentive

458
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: to license that invention than they would to sit on

459
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: the patents and just sue people. And that's what we want.

460
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: We want people to be able to license things. You know.

461
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: We don't want to get rid of patents because it

462
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: does protect people, um so that they can profit from

463
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: their work. What we do want to do is make

464
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: sure that we create incentives so that people will license

465
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: those ideas, so that we actually get to see them

466
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: and put into place and we get to benefit from

467
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: those ideas instead of using those ideas just as a

468
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 1: weapon to beat other companies over the head. Because then

469
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: if even if the idea is brilliant, no one gets

470
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: to benefit from it, because no one can make anything

471
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: that incorporates that idea. So I think neelis really nailed it.

472
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a it's a great article. And

473
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: uh he also brings up something else that's really interesting. Um,

474
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: and I'm dropping this on Chris without him knowing, so uh,

475
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: I apologize ahead of time. But do you are you

476
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: aware of of Jefferson's past with the patent Office? Yes? Oh, okay, excellent, excellent,

477
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: So we can have a conversation about this as well.

478
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: You may not be aware, all right. Thomas Jefferson had

479
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: some pretty strong ideas about patents. The patent system predates

480
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: the founding of the United States. There was a patent

481
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: system in place in the UK, right right, Well, it's

482
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: like I guess I should say, right well, that there's

483
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: some protection written into the Constitution. And of course Jefferson

484
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: himself was an inventor, so he, you know, sort of

485
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: sympathizes with with people who are creating things. So here's

486
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: something that Jefferson said about the idea of patents. If

487
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all

488
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: others of exclusive property, it is the action of the

489
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively

490
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: possess as long as he keeps it to himself, but

491
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the

492
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossit s himself

493
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: of it. It's peculiar character, too, is that no one

494
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: possesses the less because every other possesses the whole of it.

495
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: He who receives an idea from me receives instruction himself

496
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: without lessening mind, as he who lights his taper and

497
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: mind receives light without darkening me. So what he's saying

498
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: is that if you keep an idea to yourself, that's

499
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: the only way to really protect it, because once you

500
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: tell your idea to someone else, it's out there in

501
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: the open. Jefferson was essentially saying information wants to be free,

502
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: which is what we argued today too, that information wants

503
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 1: to be free, and that it wants to be available,

504
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: not necessarily free of charge. So Jefferson's idea about patents

505
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: was that they might stifle innovation, that it would keep

506
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: people from actually putting to use these devices. However, he

507
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: became the Secretary of State and was therefore part of

508
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: a a three man board that created the First Patent Act,

509
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: and he eventually it came round to the idea that

510
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: patents are actually very helpful. Now, in Jefferson's Patent Act,

511
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: he had, uh, he had set up some of the

512
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: criteria that we use today and some of it we

513
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: don't use to the extent that Jefferson saw. So he

514
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 1: he had said that the invention must prove to be useful. Uh,

515
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: it wouldn't. You wouldn't grant a patent to someone who

516
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: had just come up with another use for something that

517
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: already existed. So let's say I invent a tool that

518
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: allows me to I don't know, climb mountains faster and safer.

519
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: And then Chris takes that tool and he realizes, hey,

520
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: this tool is great as a penguin pacifier, and so

521
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: he's using it in a totally different way than I was. Well,

522
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: by Jefferson's measurement, his penguin pacification system would not would

523
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: not uh be legitimate for a patent because it was

524
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: just a different application of something that I had already made. Uh,

525
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: that's not exactly the way it's done. Now. That was

526
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: one of the ideas that kind of got shifted around

527
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: a little bit. And then it would you also would

528
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: not give an invention a patent if the invention was

529
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: just a different version of something that came before but

530
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: was made with different materials. So if I made my

531
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: mountain climbing apparatus out of um would And then Chris

532
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: decided to make his own mountain climbing apparas that's identical

533
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: to mine, except it's made out of metal. That would

534
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: not receive a patent either under Jefferson's rules, because again

535
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: it's the same thing, it's just made out of different stuff.

536
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: And he didn't like the idea of frivolous patents anything

537
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: that was the obvious or something that couldn't really be used.

538
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: He didn't like any of that, so he made provisions

539
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: to protect the Patent office from issuing patents for stuff

540
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: that just was not useful. And uh, he ended up

541
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: his ideas were implemented for a while, but they were

542
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: revised in the eighteen hundreds, so and the revisions from

543
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds or pretty much what we use now.

544
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: And uh, that's also part of why it's complicated when

545
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: you talk about software, because of course, back in the

546
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 1: eighteen hundred, software was pretty limited. I think Candy might

547
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: have had something in um no. So yeah, you didn't

548
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: have software back then, So trying to apply software the

549
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: ideas of behind software to the patent office and the

550
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: actual patent system is a little tricky. We've made some

551
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: tweaks here and there, but it's still not a perfect fit.

552
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: And part of that is that there's an argument about

553
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: software should not be eligible for patents because it's essentially math,

554
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: and math is something that's not patentable. So if you

555
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: were to try and patent software, you can't use the

556
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: word algorithm because algorithms are not patentable. Yeah, so you

557
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: have to actually dance around that. You can't, you know,

558
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: instead of calling it, uh uh an algorithm, you'd call

559
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: it something else, like a system, you know, a system,

560
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: and method is what you would call it as opposed

561
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: to an algorithm. Uh. And that's where it really does

562
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: get tricky because arguably you'd say, well, if it's basically

563
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: just math, then how do you call it non obvious?

564
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: Because you know, you just manipulate the math until it

565
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: does what you needed to do. Of Course, other people

566
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: could argue, well, any invention if you if you were

567
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: to take a software application and create a physical object

568
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: that does that same process, whatever that process might be

569
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: then you would argue that that invention could be patentable,

570
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: that physical thing you could get a patent for that,

571
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: why can't you get a patent for the digital version

572
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: of that idea? And so these are questions that still

573
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: get brought up in legal cases all the time. It's

574
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: generally accepted that software, if presented properly, is patentable UM.

575
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 1: But that's also where we're starting to see these issues

576
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,959
Speaker 1: come between these major companies where there's so many software

577
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: patents that have been issued that you know, that's why

578
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: we're seeing like a company A, Sho's company B, Company

579
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: B counter SEUs company A, and then they come to

580
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: an agreement. It's a huge mess, and you know, it

581
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: may be that we eventually catch up and and and

582
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 1: fix some of these problems. Part of the issue also

583
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: is that software patents are really complex things, and it's

584
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it's like being a person working

585
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: in the patent office and having to review software patents um.

586
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: And some some would argue that software patents are just

587
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: it's it's a technology that's more sophisticated than the general

588
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: level of sophistication of the patent office, and that the

589
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: patent office will constantly be trying to play catch up

590
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: and never catch up to actually the the state of

591
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: the art for software because technological innovation is happening so rapidly.

592
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: So there are definitely some some some big barriers that

593
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: we're going to have to get over in order to

594
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: really address patent wars and make it a system that

595
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: uh that doesn't harm innovation, it doesn't hurt the end consumer. Um.

596
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: I think we're we're kind of looking at the those possibilities.

597
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: We're seeing some of that today, but it's going to

598
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: take some years before we The government does not move quickly. No,

599
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: and these these issues are to some degree pretty complex

600
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: surely the concepts behind them, So you can't just throw

601
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: it out the door. I mean if you did, then

602
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: no one's ideas would be protected. And why would anyone

603
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 1: bother to try and innovate if they knew that immediately

604
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: they that they're hard work would be uh co opted

605
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: by someone else and they wouldn't see it, dine. So

606
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: you want to have that patent system in place because

607
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: you want you want people to come up with ideas.

608
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: I'm looking at you, would it yep? Oh? I ought

609
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: to let me tell you, I AcBe has tons of patents,

610
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 1: especially for roadrunner captures uh materials, although they're not proven

611
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: to be useful, so it's kind of questionable why they

612
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: got the pats in the first place, not for use

613
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 1: by coyotes. There you go, Well, do you have anything

614
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: else to add before we wrap up? All right? So

615
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: that concludes our episode on the patent wars. I hope

616
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: you guys enjoyed it. That was an interesting conversation. If

617
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: you guys have any topics you would like us to tackle,

618
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: you can let us know on Facebook or Twitter or

619
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: handle at both of those is text stuff h s W.

620
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: Or you can send us an email and that address

621
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: is text stuff at how Stuff Works dot com and

622
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: Chris and I will talk to you again really soon.

623
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff

624
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we

625
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The

626
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: House Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it today

627
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 1: on iTunes, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand

628
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 1: twelve Camray. It's ready, are you