1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Wilton. I believe it or not, 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: I got a few horror stories. Let me rephrase that, 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: horror movies that I watch every year, and I think 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: when Halloween rolls around as dark and di minuted as 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: as is, I will generally watch The Exorcist, and I 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: think a lot of it has to do with the 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: fact that it reminds me of how much evil there 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: is in the world, because it's truly terrifying. It always 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: comes back to the fact that you're talking about the 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: devil here, you know. I don't know is there another one? Well, again, probably, 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: I don't really get into all the Friday the thirteenth 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: stuff and things like that. It's always stuff that has 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: to do with the spiritual realm that really terrifies me 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: if you're talking about horror movie. But today, there's another 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: movie that's coming to mind, a movie that came out 16 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: a few years ago that was directed by Rob Zombie, 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 1: and the title of that movie was actually The House 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: of a Thousand Corpses. It's kind of a dark, very 19 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: dark comedy. But the reason that's coming to mind is 20 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about a case today where 21 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: we are being told that we're looking at ten thousand 22 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 1: human remains at one location in Indiana. I'm Joseph Scott 23 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags. Dave of your own 24 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: free will. Have you ever subjected yourself to the horror 25 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: genre and is there something in particular that you can 26 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: reflect upons like? Okay, thinking about horror movies, this is 27 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: the one that I always go to. It's the one 28 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: that scares me consistently, or it's something I enjoyed just 29 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: because of the strange nature of it. 30 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: I saw the first move Halloween movie John Carpenter, Yeah, 31 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: in theaters. 32 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, the original Halloween. I hadn't thought about that, 33 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: and that was kind of terrifying because, at least at 34 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: that point in time, it seemed plausible. You know, you've 35 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: got somebody, uh you know, yeah, I know, from from 36 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: a mental institute and they're they're a violent offender. Remember 37 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: Donald Pleasance. You know he's saying I tried to get 38 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 1: I tried to get through to Michael Myers for all 39 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: of these years, you know, and it you know, a 40 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: deck aid or whatever it was. What was he like 41 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 1: eight when he murdered his entire family and he had 42 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: no success. So he winds up, you know, ventilating this 43 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: this this guy, you know, uh, and the body disappears. 44 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: You know, that's the ending shot. I hate to be 45 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: a spoiler, but if you hadn't seen Halloween, I don't 46 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: know what to tell you've been hiding under a rock. 47 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah so, but you know today, Dave, this case in 48 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: particular actually involves somebody that had been under psychiatric treatment 49 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: for a let me drop this word on you, for 50 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: a plethora of all kinds of psychopathology. Sorry, yeah, there 51 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: you go, another movie, another movie reference. It's it's so 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: expansive that what this individual Bombmeister had the history leading 53 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: up to well where we are to day. But boy, 54 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: it's a long and crooked path, isn't it with this guy. 55 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: It's interesting that her ball Meister, and we're mentioning movie 56 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: references and things like that. You know, there's part of 57 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: his story, her bomb Eister a serial killer and let 58 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: a double life. That's something that we don't usually see 59 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: in the real world. That's a I've always thought of 60 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: that as some kind of a cinematic trick. You know, 61 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: if you if you can't solve this, just make it 62 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: a double life. Here, he's got this thing over here, 63 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 2: and this thing over there, and and in reality here 64 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: her bomb eister really did have. According to his wife, 65 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,679 Speaker 2: she had no idea. Now, if a guy's a serial 66 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: killer and you're married to him and you have no idea, 67 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: I call that double life success. Yeah. 68 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: Look, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna mention any any 69 00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: names here. I'll say they're initials though, okay, rex hureman uh. 70 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: And so you know you're you're thinking about a double 71 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: life and the wife having little or no awareness of it. 72 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: You know, I can't talk about this away from the 73 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: show because I don't want any I don't need a 74 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: call from a lawyer today, but I do want to 75 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 2: talk to you about Hey. 76 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: Look he's he's not a serial killer. But I can 77 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: tell you this even all what what is it? Magic 78 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: eight ball used to say all signs point to point. 79 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just kind of laying I'm just kind 80 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: of laying that out. 81 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: And when you, buddy Karen Stark uses the magic eight ball. 82 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: No, no, Now, Hey, we had a great time with 83 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: her at Crime Con and what a you know the 84 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: movie A Beautiful Mind, What a beautiful mind she has. 85 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: She is so brilliant. And but that's that's a tale 86 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: for another day. We're gonna be dropping an episode the target. 87 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: The crime con. I will tell you it was some 88 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: session freak people out I think getting emails about what 89 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: you guys said. And yeah, yeah, anyway, but back to 90 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: her bomb Meister for just a minute. Yeah, he's married 91 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: for twenty five years to this woman and they have 92 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: three children. Oddly enough, and this is I'm going to 93 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: go do the math on this when we're done. But 94 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: they had sex six times according to her in that 95 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: twenty five year period and had strokes. So sure shot 96 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: bomb Eister, you know, was boom right there on that one, 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: but he actually her bomb Eister. Serial Killer Deluxe actually 98 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: might be two separate serial killers in one, believe it 99 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 2: or not, the I seventy killer and then the gay 100 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: club killer. I don't know whether they named him the 101 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: Fox Hollow murder guy, you know, yeah, yeah, that they 102 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: found the ten thousand body parts body fragmed, bone parts. 103 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: I don't know the actual term for this show. I'm 104 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: sure you know you got you guys have one when 105 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: you have body parts commingled right or bone fragment. 106 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, well we refer to it as the commingling of remains. Yeah, 107 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: and that's the trick is is to attempt to identify 108 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: of those bones which which which are because you can't 109 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: just assume that all of those remains are are in 110 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: fact human. 111 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: Because you can I didn't think about that. 112 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: Well, listen, I've got I've got I've got a great 113 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: aside for you here and and it'll give you an 114 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: idea as to what forensic anthropologists have to go to. 115 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: And by the way, for those that don't know, I'm 116 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: a frustrated forensic anthropologist. I'm what's referred to if you 117 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: go out to a scene with buried remains. I'm what's 118 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: referred to as a shovel leaner, and I sit at 119 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: the feet a forensic anthropologist. I've always been fascinated by 120 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: the field, and I've done many excavations, but I'm not 121 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: the person you go to to identify specific bones and 122 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: try to assess whether or not they are human or not. 123 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: But a quick aside. Allegedly, and I've heard this from 124 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: a couple of different sources. With doctor Bass, who founded 125 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: the Body Farm at ut there was an exercise that 126 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: he would put his students front through and you'll get 127 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: a kick out of this day where he would have 128 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: a mass of bones, okay, skeletal remains, and they would 129 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: be in a big cardboard box. Okay, the top is closed, 130 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: you can't look at them, and there's a hole. There's 131 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: a hole on each end of the box. He would 132 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: stick his hand in one end of the box, the 133 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: student would stick their hand in the other end of 134 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: the box, and by feel, they would examine that bone 135 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: together and the student would have to identify the skeletal 136 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: element anatomically and if possible, identify what species it was. 137 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: And that's by touch. Can you imagine the skill level 138 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: that's involved in that. And now, if anybody could do it, 139 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: it would be doctor Bass again, we sit it his feet. 140 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: He's amazing. And how valid that is I don't know, 141 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: but I've heard it from two separate people that were 142 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: part of the program. And when you're talking about and 143 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: again we have to be very clear here, this is 144 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: not ten thousand intact human remains. I saw a headline 145 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: I think from the post actually that said ten thousand 146 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: humor And technically you could say that they are potentially 147 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: ten thousand human remains, but they are not intact remains. Okay, 148 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: quick trivia question. Dave put you on the spot. When 149 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: you compare an infant and an adult. Of those two, 150 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:53,479 Speaker 1: which of those two have the most bones in their body? 151 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: You know, I would just think adult, but I guess 152 00:09:59,160 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: I'm wrong. 153 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: Infant has two hundred and seventy an adult has two 154 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: hundred and six. 155 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: Really, that's a lot. That's a big difference. 156 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: That's a huge difference because of the fusion, the fusion 157 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: of the bones over period of time. You know, as 158 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: child goes through development, bones that were say, are elements 159 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: of bones that are non non Let's see, how can 160 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: we say this none articulated at that point time, and 161 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: that in that period of growth or development, when they 162 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: begin to fuse together. You know, we talk about growing 163 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: pains and all those sorts of things. When bones begin 164 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: to to fuse together over a period of time, they 165 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: create a smaller number of bones. Because now you go 166 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: from two hundred and seventy to two hundred and six. 167 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: And so as people you know, go into development, as 168 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, through throughout their early child hood and all 169 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: the way up until you know, I don't know, towards 170 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: the end prebe vestent, you have this fusion that has 171 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: taken place, and so you're gonna have less bones than 172 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: an adult than you do in a baby. 173 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: Isn't that something I had no idea, Joe. Really, that's 174 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: not something that I ever considered. And by the way, 175 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: and I said this last week or the week before 176 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: when you and I actually had a brief chat about 177 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: growing pains that I always thought was a load and 178 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 2: now I feel horrible about it, but I didn't say 179 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: anything out loud when my kids, Yeah, it was, oh, 180 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: it's growing pains like looking little wives like you real? 181 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: Come on, yeah, you've got these various plates that are 182 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: in the body where and it and listen, I mean, 183 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: anybody can reflect on their on their own personal experience 184 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: when you you know what it feels like, you know, 185 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: and they're sharp, there's no other pain like a gross pain, 186 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: and some people experience them to a really intense degree. 187 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: But you know, I'm when you when you come across 188 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: these kinds of cases where you have these commingling of 189 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: remains and this is nothing new. Under the Sunday the 190 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: what forensic anthropologies are faced with at a scene. If 191 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: you have a serial perpetrator, they don't deviate much in 192 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: their behaviors. They get into a rut. I've often compared 193 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: them to carpenters. Carpenter uses a set of tools, they 194 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: have methodologies. It's a system that is utilized when building 195 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: a house, you know, and if you've got bits that 196 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: are say bits of wood, you know, two by fours, 197 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: that trust is those sorts of things that have been 198 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: had to trim. It goes into a pile, doesn't it. Well, 199 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: there's a certain way those piles are organized because of 200 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: how they're going to recycle that stuff and utilize it. 201 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: Liberated to take a look liberate. 202 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I wouldn't go say that, but it's 203 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: it's a matter of it's a matter of getting into 204 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: a rut where they feel comfortable. This idea. You were 205 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: talking about things that are used in Hollywood where you'll 206 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: have a perpetrator that will intentionally go out and try 207 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: to recreate the behaviors of another serial killer, and you know, 208 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: they think they're going to mask themselves. There's always an 209 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: underlying theme, you know, relative to that that would make 210 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: that very difficult. That's why a movie would be made 211 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: about that, because it would be something that was so rare. 212 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: So when you're talking about this, this bombmister fellow, he's 213 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: got a wide open area day. This complex that he 214 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:49,479 Speaker 1: lived on was so vast and out in rural, rural Indiana, 215 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: which I've been to this area of the country and 216 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: absolutely beautiful, rolling hills, green, lush land for farming. And 217 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: this is just outside of Indianapolis. But here's the thing. 218 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody in that little community, anybody 219 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: just driving down the road or maybe some family that 220 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: was out for a drive in the country leaving Indianapolis, 221 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: they look out over that bucolic beauty of those fields, 222 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: maybe this lovely home that this guy occupied, and they 223 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: couldn't even begin to fathom the horrors that had taken 224 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: place at that location. I'm fascinated by comments you made 225 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: just a moment ago, Dave, about Bolb Monster and his wife, 226 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: that marriage producing three children. She had stated that they 227 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: had had sex maybe six times, I think. 228 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: In twenty five years. 229 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: In twenty five years. Here here's another little tidbit relative 230 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: to her. Did you know that she never saw her 231 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: husband nude? Yep, I think that that's that's a huge tell. 232 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: You know, when you begin to think about the intimacy 233 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: with which you you know, you entowel a structure with somebody. 234 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: You know you're going to see somebody's rear end sooner 235 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: or later, or walk in on them in the bathroom. 236 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: You would think, you know, how do you how do 237 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: you plan your life out so well, Dave? Because that 238 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: that is a purposed task, right, that's a purpose You're 239 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: you're attempting to veil yourself. How much can you imagine 240 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: how much energy that would take over that long a 241 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: period of tom of being you know, joined with this 242 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: person and producing three kids, right, but yet you're you're 243 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: not going to see them naked over that period of time. 244 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's very odd, dude, very very odd. 245 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: When you look at the whole thing, with her bomb 246 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 2: Eiz or his background, you realize that his psychological well being, 247 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: his emotional stability were things questioned by his family. You know, 248 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: six months after he was married, six months after he 249 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: was married, his father had him committed to a psychiatric institution. 250 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: So I don't know what happened during that six months 251 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: of marriage, but it had to have been pretty severe 252 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: that his father had to step in and say, Herbie, 253 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: we're going to get you away from here for a while. 254 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: So and again, I don't know what happened. I didn't read, 255 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know they've written a book about 256 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: that part. But I kind of I'm very curious as 257 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: to what began or what what happened that caused his 258 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 2: dad to lock him down for you know, six months 259 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: into his marriage. And once you get married, you're an adult. 260 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: You're on your own, supposedly, and that seems like dad 261 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 2: was still heavily involved or his wife said, hey, your 262 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: son is really messed up. Can you help me? I'm 263 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: going to die, you know. 264 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: And you know, his dad was like a very prominent, 265 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: wealthy physician. 266 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: Right what I'm saying, it's bizarre behavior that like and listen. 267 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: This, this bizarre behavior did did not start at marriage. 268 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: And you can't. You can't necessarily control who who your 269 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: kids are going to marry. You'd like to, but you know, 270 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: they're they're going to go their own way, They're going 271 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: to go their own route. And I really wonder if 272 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, if the uh, you know, if his wife, 273 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, you know, looking back over it, I can't 274 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: take the depth and breadth of it relative to what 275 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: he had been involved in while she was living under 276 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: the same roof with him. 277 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: Well, did he getting right down to this, Joe, you're 278 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 2: talking about somebody in looking at her Ballmeister as a 279 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: serial killer. You mentioned a little while ago how carpenters 280 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: get used to the same tools, the same pattern, the 281 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: same extra things that are left over when they're done 282 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: with the job, and how those things are planned out 283 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 2: over a period of time. Well, normally within the serial 284 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: killer world, there are consistencies in what the suspect does 285 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: in the crime, whether it's where they dispose of the body, 286 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 2: the method they used to kill. And yet when this 287 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 2: story is broken down, you actually have two different serial 288 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 2: killers in one. He actually is the I seventy strangler, 289 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 2: a decade almost of killings along Eye seventy where the 290 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: bodies where they were the victims were strangled and then 291 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: tossed aside. And then we have the headline of the 292 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: ten thousand remains found on the farm property, the fox 293 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: Hall of farm murders. So you had two separate serial 294 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: killings going on. You would think it would be two 295 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: separate people. And maybe this goes back to psychological issues. 296 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: Maybe he had multiple personality disorder or something. 297 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, he may have. Here's here's one other thing, you know, many, 298 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: many serial killers are beset by what are referred to 299 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: as perophilias, which are these yeah, I know, right, they 300 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: got a name for everything, dude, paraphalia, Yeah, perophilias. It's 301 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: kind of a generalized term, like if somebody has some 302 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: particular type of sexual proclivity, all right, or the they 303 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: listen more and listen. Not all necessarily all peraphelias are bad, 304 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: all right. We have to say that because certain people 305 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: like certain things. But when you start to get off 306 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: into these things that become path logic. You know. He 307 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: he had been identified at an early age as having europhilia, 308 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: which he had a fascination with urine, and he had 309 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: actually at one point, Tom had urinated on a teacher's desk. 310 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: Now you can say that's antisocial behavior. I think that's 311 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: not a very firm stretch. Yeah, yeah, But you have 312 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: to think about you have to think about, well, what 313 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: was the motivation you know behind this? Was it an 314 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: undertone of sexual sexual perversion to the point where he 315 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: was so obsessed with it. He had also been found 316 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: to be playing with dead animals, which we've heard time 317 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: and time again relative to development of these folks that 318 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: have this predisposition. I don't know if it's a predisposition, 319 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: but they they get on this track in life where 320 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: they're obsessed with the dead. They find dead animals they dissect. 321 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm thinking Jeffrey Dahmer here and his daddy used to 322 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: go out and looking for animals to dissect. I'm not 323 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: saying that that. Yeah, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. 324 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: Because if you let's just say, if you have, if 325 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: you're a scientist and you have a child and you 326 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: want them to try to understand, uh, the anatomy of 327 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: a species of bird that you find and you take 328 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: it back, you dissect it. You know, Okay, well that's 329 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: a that's a learning objective that you know your child 330 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: has an interest in the anatomical structures of a bird. 331 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: So glad my boys were more into baseball and football 332 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 2: than they were dead animals, because you know, I know, 333 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: I know baseball cards going eight? Did you know that, 334 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: Steve Garvey bet you. 335 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, this is a this is a different thing. 336 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: And so when and I don't know, if you're in 337 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: the middle of it, if you know, necessrely can if 338 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: you can make some kind of prediction, But when you 339 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: have a child that is early on diagnosed with schizphrenia 340 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: and antisocial behavior and all these little elements that come along. 341 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: And here's the thing, Dave. You know, like I said, 342 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: his father, I think they moved into this just expansive home. 343 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: This thing is huge, man. 344 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: And all the time I heard bombs dr and his wife. 345 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah. Well the thing about it is they 346 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: had occupied if I remember correctly, this was a family 347 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,239 Speaker 1: plot that they had a family family residence. You know, 348 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: they found his child, one of these three children that 349 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: bomb Maaster had had with his wife, was out playing 350 00:22:54,800 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: in the yard day and the child actually discovered I 351 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: can't even can't fathom this a human remain out there, 352 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: and all Monster says, oh yeah, well just ignore that 353 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: that that's one of my father's anatomical specimens that he had, 354 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: you know, buried out there. And I'm thinking, you know, 355 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: I don't know too many physicians that still do anatomical 356 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: dissections at home. I don't know any of them as 357 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: a matter of fact. You know, they practice on things 358 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: to learn how to suture and do that sort of thing. Generally, 359 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: those are going to be like pigs feet where they'll 360 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: make an incision and they'll practice, you know, soutrain and 361 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: all that to stay up on technique. But you know, 362 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: when you're talking about gross anatomy, that's generally something you 363 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: do in medical school, you know, where you have these 364 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: cadavers that you dissect to learn, you know, at a 365 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: granular level, begin to learn about human anatomy. But dude, 366 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: you got you got a body out in the yard 367 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: and you're going to say that this belonged to your daddy. 368 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: You know, he was going to use this as an 369 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: hand tomb and this poor precious child out there. Can 370 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: you imagine digging around and all of a sudden you 371 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: come across, let's go, mommy, mommy, look what I found. 372 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: And it's the most shocking thing in the world. So, 373 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: you know, and that's kind of where this kind of 374 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: all kicks off relative to you know, placing a remain 375 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: in his sphere, something that he would have control over, Dave, 376 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: And you can't again, I know I always use the term, 377 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: but it's hard to plumb the depths of it, man, 378 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: I mean it really, it really really is, brother, Dave. 379 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: I got to ask you something, man, the idea of 380 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: this case and it's a fascinating case obviously, or we 381 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: wouldn't be you know, yapping about it today. But you know, 382 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: this is something that went down in the in the nineties. 383 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, the allegend, we have said, 384 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: the alleged perpetrator here, he was never charged, you know, 385 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: took his own life up around Ontario. What I think 386 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: our listeners need to understand why this case cases I 387 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: guess right, why this has all risen back up to 388 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: the top it. Why is it made a reappearance here 389 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: in twents. 390 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 2: We were at crime on When we were at crime 391 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: con June second, this story popped up in the New 392 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 2: York Post. That's why we're talking about it now. Because 393 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: the New York Post had ran a headline, ten thousand 394 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: human remains found on serial killers farm and authorities are 395 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: still identifying victims. Look, ten thousand human remains found. That 396 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: to me screams ten thousand people dead, right, human remains. 397 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 2: That's not it at all. That's a salacious headline. It 398 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: gets a lot of people to look at it. 399 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 1: But it made me look at it. It made me 400 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: look at it. Those are battle numbers that you saw 401 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: in the Civil War. That's normandy, you know, yeah, yeah, exactly, 402 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: It's nuts. Ten thousand and I love the fact that 403 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: you use the term salacious because it is provocative and 404 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: it got this old death investigator to you know, you're 405 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: the one that sent this to me, I did. 406 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: I didn't seek this. 407 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: I didn't seek this out on my own. 408 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: Because I saw the headline. I'm not tell me what's 409 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 2: wrong with this, But here's the story actually says. For years, 410 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: a peaceful million dollar farm in Indiana hit a dark secret. 411 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: It was a serial killer's playground. Well not really, it 412 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: didn't really sit there dark in secret. They being law enforcement, 413 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 2: they were aware of what was out on the farm. 414 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: They didn't know the numbers maybe, and they can't identify everybody, 415 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: Which is my question for you, Joe, because when cops 416 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: finally rated her bomb eister, back up, her bomb eister 417 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 2: was a suspect in Indiana because there was in Indianapolis 418 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: in the gay community, a couple of gay bars there 419 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: where a number of gay men went missing. Now we're 420 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 2: talking on the heels of Jeffrey Dahmer being arrested three 421 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 2: years earlier. His crimes were still garnering headlines in ninety four, 422 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: and you know his was about gay men and things 423 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: like that, and so this was you know, this was 424 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: part of that whole story. And they're like, well, what 425 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: did this guy do? And you know, you got your 426 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: local businessman in Indianapolis. He's got two thrift stores called 427 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 2: Save a Lot and Aarent and he's got a wife 428 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: and three kids. They live in a million dollar farm 429 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: called Box Hollow. He's got all of the outward trappings 430 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: of a success full businessman, and yet his fifteen year 431 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: old son, as you mentioned a little while ago, his 432 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: fifteen year old son finds almost a full skeletonized body 433 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: on the property, buried in a very shallow grave. Someone 434 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 2: was sticking out, Hey, dad, look what I found. What 435 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: is this? Oh that's your dad, that's your grandpa. Is 436 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 2: he had that for some kind of studying and that. 437 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: But that's where it all began. In a very brief 438 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: period of time, her bomb eister becomes suspect Numero uno 439 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: in the Gay Men Missing in Indianapolis. And as they 440 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: start tracking back, you know, the first thing comes up 441 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: in an investigation, who is this person, what do they 442 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: do for a living, where have they been? Do they 443 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 2: have a criminal record, do they have a psychological record? 444 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: And boom, yeah, he has been in a mental institution 445 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 2: logged down, and so that becomes part of the story 446 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: in the investigation. But ten thousand remains, Joe, did they 447 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: find ten thousand bodies on Fox Holid Farm. 448 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely not, that's just not the case. Let's lay waste 449 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 1: to that suppossession right here. Ten thousand remains even if 450 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: you tried to do the arithmetic on that, how busy 451 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: a serial killer, a singular person would have to be. 452 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: That's why I referenced the Civil War earlier, and I 453 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: don't think there were any any major Civil War battles 454 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: fought just outside of Indianapolis, you know, so we can 455 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: check that off the list. When they're talking about it. 456 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, go hitching something a little while ago, and you 457 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: were talking about how sifting through an area to find remains, 458 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: and you're talking about watching this process take place, and 459 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: I'm picturing, you know, Indiana Jones and things like that 460 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: that we've seen and things on the History Channel where 461 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: that you see an area that has string and people 462 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: walking through with what looked like callanders, you know, and 463 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 2: they're sifting through sand and finding little bits and pieces. 464 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: And that's what they were doing at Fox Hollow Farm. 465 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: They were finding these areas and sifting the dirt. 466 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: Correct they were. And here's the thing, David, it's not 467 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: like you know what, you use the idea of Indiana Jones. 468 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: But if you think about a regular standard anthropological anthropological dig, 469 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna grid off that area and you work specific grids. 470 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: And these grids. First off, you expanded out so you've 471 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: got huge grids, and then you narrow it down in 472 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: your search, your initial search. But then you go to say, 473 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: a space that might be I don't know, for sake 474 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: of simplicity, you'll grid it off so that it's essentially 475 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: two by two feet, okay, okay, And you work that 476 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: individual grid and you have to go down into the substrata. 477 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: You know, you go down, down, down as far as 478 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: you can until you get a kind of impacted soil. 479 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: Everything that's on top of that you're going to take 480 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: out and you're going to sift through. And here's here's 481 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: the problem with this, Dave. These remains that they're talking 482 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: about there, it's not like someone took a saw and 483 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: dismembered a long bone and dropped it in a hole 484 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: and buried it. I said, what we're talking about here, 485 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about they literally use the term pulverized. So 486 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: now if you think looking for bones that are intact 487 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: is difficult, when you start to get out into that 488 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: area where you have not just these pulverized bones, but 489 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: you've got what we refer to as cremains, which are 490 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: the burned bone fragments. See, my thought is that you 491 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: burn a body long enough, again, takes time, creates a 492 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: visual a visual event, and also creates a smell. How 493 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: can you be so ignorant of your surroundings if you're 494 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: part and parcel of this family and you don't have 495 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: an awareness of it or what Daddy's up to out 496 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: in the barn or wherever he is. And so after 497 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: the body is burned, and you talk about being purposed, 498 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: now you've got to get a heavy object. Let's just 499 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: think of something like a small mallet ballpen hammer, maybe 500 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: a sledge hammer, and you get out there and you 501 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: set the you know, crushing these things. And then you've 502 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: got to take those things and gather them up, okay, 503 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: and go to a specific area and dump them. Now, 504 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: you're not going to get everything, No one, even crematories 505 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: don't get everything. You can still see evidence of cremains 506 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: from a crematory that where you can identify bone fragment. 507 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: As quick as side Joe with my mother, my mother 508 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 2: passed away very very young, to and her body was 509 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: cremated and we did a ceremony out of okre Cook Island, 510 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: North Carolina, which is where she was from and loved. 511 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: And we're on the beach, and I thought remains were powdery, 512 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 2: maybe like sand, because of what I had seen in 513 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: movies and on TV shows where they scattered remains. And 514 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 2: I have warned people ever since, that's not what it is. 515 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 2: You actually can identify certain things as bone as I 516 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: don't want to say a tooth, but you can actually 517 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: really identify certain aspects of the boy. It's not powder, 518 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: it's not sand. And that was shocking to me. It 519 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: really hurt because nobody warned me. 520 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: I can't. I can't even begin to imagine the depths 521 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: of your sorrow at that point, Tom, It's it's you know, 522 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: on top of the grief that you're experiencing, you have 523 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: to go through that. 524 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: But and knowing that Joe and that was done the 525 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: way it was supposed to be done and that's all 526 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: they could do. I'm thinking, well, this guy out on 527 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: his farm. He's going to have to have privacy to 528 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: pulverize the bones. He's going to have to have time. 529 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 2: That's the other part. He almost at time by himself 530 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: and then burning and things. So how did he get 531 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: how to a the time? B the time? See the time, 532 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 2: because you're talking not three or four, you're talking ten, twelve, 533 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: maybe more bodies creating ten thousand bone fragments. 534 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: It's it's an intense situation where you have because and 535 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, where you you actually have 536 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: to have you have to tend tend the fire, okay, 537 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: and the rendering will take a long time because it's 538 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: not just dumping gas on the body, striking a match, 539 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, like you're in some kind of Western movie 540 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: and throwing it on and everything goes up. It doesn't 541 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: work like that. You have to feed, You have to 542 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: have a fuel source. Generally it's going to mean a 543 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: really hot burning wood. You think about Terra grins At 544 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: that case that has been in the news for years 545 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: and years, and when they burned her body, they had 546 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: access to pecan that was in a pecan orchard. I 547 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: don't know how familiar folks are, but did you know 548 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: Pecan is like a very very dense wood and it 549 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: has it gives off the highest number of B to us, 550 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: which we measure heat with. It's in the same family 551 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: as far as B to use as hickory is. So 552 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: it gives you and you have to have that kind 553 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: of sustainable fire source. So if you're going to use 554 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: you could use pine, which is a very soft wood, 555 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: but it's not as sustainable as like this ongoing heat source. 556 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: So the more you expose these skeleton remains to heat, 557 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: the more degradation you have of the remain degrading. Okay, 558 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: and you mentioned teeth just a second of teeth or 559 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: that you teeth are not bone. They're more resilient than bone. 560 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: And so when you have a cremation that takes place, 561 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: sometimes you will find teeth. But with cremation, there's two ways. 562 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: The earlier way that they used to do it was 563 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,959 Speaker 1: after a body rolls off of a off of the 564 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: the fire fireproof conveyor belt as it comes out of 565 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: the furnace, you had opposing you had these opposing stone 566 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: wheels or marble wheels like this that spun and the 567 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: remains would pass through that crushing. Okay, now they have 568 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: an auger. It's kind of a screw like this, and 569 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: it screws the remains. The cremains passed through that auger 570 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: and they're crushed down. Elementally, this guy didn't have access 571 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: to this. You know, you're thinking about, well, how could 572 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: you facilitate and we're talking about, you know, people, We 573 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: had said ten thousand remains, but what we're looking at 574 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: here is roughly like eleven remains, and they're still recovering 575 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: others as well. So you've got all of these elements 576 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: that are being placed together. Now do you dig a 577 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: hole and just simply put them there? One thing we 578 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: do know evidence through what the child said, Dave, was 579 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: that we've got one skeleton that was intact, So that 580 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,720 Speaker 1: was not necessarily something that he did. We know every 581 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: single time when he's trying to dispose of a remain, 582 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: obviously he has burned, he has pulverized, he has crushed. 583 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: But then your left, Dave, here's the thing. You're left 584 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: with this problem as an investigator, how do you get 585 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: these people ideed? You know, you've got fragments that are 586 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: so tiny, so very tawny, and you're looking at it 587 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: and thinking, well, how in the world do you go 588 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: about taking a bone fragment and identifying a human being. 589 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 2: So that's what we're dealing with, Joe. We have to 590 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 2: get these guys down to the actual victims, people we 591 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 2: know that are missing and possibly tied to bomb eister. Now, 592 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 2: as we look at this case, ten thousand remains parts. 593 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 2: We know that it's not ten thousand people think right, right, 594 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 2: But I'm still a little stuck on a couple of 595 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 2: things here. But going back to the farm and taking 596 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 2: it away, because the I seventies strangler is a different thing, 597 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 2: is it. Do you know other stories where a serial 598 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: killer had a method of killing and disposing of bodies 599 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 2: and then changed his methodology, he changed what he was doing. 600 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 2: We actually have some overlap here, overlap of the I 601 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 2: seventy strangler where people were you know, dumped long I 602 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: seventy and then the Fox Hollow Farm murders or bodies. 603 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: There's a little overlap, right, cases like this. 604 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, most of them are certainly outliers because once 605 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: they get practiced in a particular way, they're going to 606 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: stick with that. And I'll give you an example and 607 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: talk about Midwestern serial killers. You've got kind of succession 608 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: here you'd mentioned Dahmer, but you know, predating Dahmer, Uh, 609 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: we have John Wayne Gacy and you know that's Chicago. 610 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: And then you go to Damer, which started in Ohio 611 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: and wound up in Wisconsin. I think many people forget about. 612 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: His first kill was at that house that his daddy had, 613 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, that they were living in where he killed 614 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: that kid when he was a cheenage guy. Yeah. 615 00:39:59,160 --> 00:39:59,959 Speaker 2: I totally forgot about. 616 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: And then we moved forward now with with bomb Meister, 617 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: and you know with okay, with Gaysey. Gaysey, he's infamously 618 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: you know cross space, you know, underneath the house. 619 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 2: He's he. 620 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: Did dump up up in displays that that river. Uh, 621 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: you know famously. And I highly recommend if no one 622 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: has seen seen the the Netflix uh documentary about about 623 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy, you gotta check this thing out. It 624 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: blew my mind. I learned things in there that I 625 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: never knew. But you know, he differed in his disposal 626 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: relative to those so the fact that he would change 627 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: is hard to believe. Particularly you can see like a 628 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: one off event. Okay, I'm rushed, I'm gonna get caught. 629 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: I've just got to get rid of these remains as 630 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: quickly as possible, the getting rid of the remains, and 631 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,240 Speaker 1: I'm getting over into my friend Karen Stark's area here. 632 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: It's part of the ceremony. Let that sink in just 633 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: for a second. That's part of the ceremony. It's not 634 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: just about killing. It's about you know, sitting there and 635 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:18,240 Speaker 1: kind of ruminating over how you know, we're going to 636 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: to you know, uh, handle the body, get rid of 637 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: the body. And there's a you know, we talked about 638 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: paraphilia's early on. There there always is in in my 639 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:37,439 Speaker 1: in my opinion, there's always a element of necrophilia in 640 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: many of these things where bodies are posed, bodies are 641 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: gone back and touched, trophies are taken from the body 642 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: as a remembrance, and a lot of these things are 643 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: sexually driven. The line's share of them are. And so 644 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: there's a wild fantasy element that goes on with this. 645 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: So if you're rendering down and where where was he 646 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: getting these victims? Dave you mentioned this and not unlike 647 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy and also Dahmer, they were cruising. They 648 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: were cruising, you know, in gay areas that were targeting 649 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: gay men. And I think that probably all three of 650 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: these individuals had real issues with their own personal identity 651 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: and they're frustrated and so that they would lash out 652 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: in anger for whatever reason. And you couple that with 653 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: some kind of psychopathology that's going on. But how do 654 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: they keep a clear head through this systematically with rendering 655 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: down remains? And I'd be fascinated to know, with bomb 656 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: Meister's case, if there was an effort at dissection at 657 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: all of these remains to try to make them manageable, 658 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: because one of the toughest things. 659 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 2: To do is. 660 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: To try to is to try to by flame destroy 661 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: an entire intact body. Day. It's like, please forgive me 662 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: for saying this, but it's almost like, Okay, if you 663 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: and I went into the forest and we cut down 664 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 1: a tree. Okay, we cut down an oak tree, and 665 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: we cut up, say a five foot segment of that 666 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 1: oak tree, and we put it on a burn pile 667 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,919 Speaker 1: and try to render that thing down. That's how long 668 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: it would take us to do that. It's it's totally 669 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: other things. We take that five foot section, cut it 670 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: into smaller sections and get out our you know, our 671 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: mall or our wedge and sledge hammer and begin to 672 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 1: section it off. Until we've got pieces right, and the 673 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: elements will burn more efficiently when they're reduced in size. 674 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: So you've got all of these things going on, you know, 675 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: with this individual to try to understand what happened. Have 676 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: they found everybody? I've seen one estimate for this guy, 677 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: and you know people always have estimates, maybe up to 678 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: forty five with this guy. In my opinion, Dave, this 679 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: will not be coming to a conclusion anytime soon. This 680 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: property is vast, The lives that he impacted and ended 681 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: are innumerable, I would think, and particularly if this methodology 682 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: for disposal remains is the same one that he's stuck 683 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: with over and over and over again. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 684 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: and this is body packs.