WEBVTT - Exploring the Challenges of Building Settlements in Space

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>Well more than half a century after Neil Armstrong landed

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<v Speaker 2>on the Moon, another space race is definitely heating up.

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<v Speaker 2>We talk about it all the time. This time it's

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<v Speaker 2>about the promising new frontier for us Earthlings.

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<v Speaker 1>That's you and me. Mars is it? I do know? Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so NASA's got a rover up there. Elon Musk is

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<v Speaker 1>trying to get SpaceX's starship Rocket up to snuff with

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<v Speaker 1>the ultimate goal of getting people to Mars. But Carol,

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<v Speaker 1>the question remains, is it actually a good idea for

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<v Speaker 1>us even to be thinking about going to Mars and

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<v Speaker 1>colonizing space?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Earth Is, you know, having a rough

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<v Speaker 2>time so we might need another place to live anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the question of our next guest, who set

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<v Speaker 2>out to answer it in her new book. Kelly Wienersmith

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<v Speaker 2>is the co author of City on Mars, Can we

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<v Speaker 2>Settle Space? Should we settle Space? And have we really

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<v Speaker 2>thought this through? She wrote this book with her husband, Zach,

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<v Speaker 2>and she joins us on Zoom From Charlotte's Ville, Virginia.

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly It's a subject we love to talk about. Elon

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<v Speaker 2>Musk loves to talk about it so many people. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>the daughter of a rocket scientist. I love talking about

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff. Tell us about this book. What you set

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<v Speaker 2>out to do with your husband, Zach.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, So, after writing our first book together, we thought

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<v Speaker 3>that space settlements might be a near term possibility, something

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<v Speaker 3>that might happen in our lifetimes, and so we set

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<v Speaker 3>out to write the guide for what the next couple

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<v Speaker 3>decades are going to be like as we become a

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<v Speaker 3>multiplanetary species. And after four years of research, we essentially

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<v Speaker 3>determined that we are not ready to take this on yet.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't know enough about a lot of different topics.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm happy to get into them, and that actually depression

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<v Speaker 3>to it. There could be a lot of problems.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you okay, So talk to me about the idea,

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<v Speaker 1>like the timeframes that you're thinking of of here, because

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, should we actually be thinking about colonizing Mars

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<v Speaker 1>within our life?

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<v Speaker 2>And can we just say, for those of you watching

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<v Speaker 2>on streaming and YouTube, we're kind of loving your background.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that Mars in the background? I'm not quite sure.

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<v Speaker 3>No, No, that's Earth. Those are the lights from Earth.

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<v Speaker 3>So sorry, your question was, should we oh in our lifetimes?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I think that if it happens in our lifetimes, No,

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<v Speaker 3>that's okay. If it happens in our lifetimes, I think

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<v Speaker 3>that might be a problem. So, for example, we don't

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<v Speaker 3>know nearly enough about how space impacts the human body.

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<v Speaker 3>It turns out data from the International Space Station don't

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<v Speaker 3>tell us what we need to know about humans living

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<v Speaker 3>on Mars. So I think if we sent them there

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<v Speaker 3>there could be a lot of ethical problems, especially if

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<v Speaker 3>they started making families and you know, exposing children to

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<v Speaker 3>these environments that we don't understand very well sounds like

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<v Speaker 3>a problem. And as you mentioned, there might be a

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<v Speaker 3>race with China starting.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So hm, let's think about some of the challenges

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<v Speaker 1>that we're not talking about, just like you know, logistical

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<v Speaker 1>things like actually having families. We're talking about things that

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<v Speaker 1>are pretty serious, like okay, once you get there, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you get back?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're talking about poof food and closing the loose.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah you said it, Carol, That's what I really wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to get too. Okay, so just go for it. Carol's fault.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, so close.

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<v Speaker 3>Loop ecosystems Basically, if you're going to be living on Mars,

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<v Speaker 3>it's going to be it's really expensive to get resources

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<v Speaker 3>to you from Earth, and for a long time, it's

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<v Speaker 3>going to be really hard to extract resources from Mars.

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<v Speaker 3>And Mars is a two year trip there and back.

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<v Speaker 3>It's six months to get there, and then you're stuck

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<v Speaker 3>there for a while until Earth sort of comes back

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<v Speaker 3>around again, and then it's six months to get home.

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<v Speaker 3>So you need to have a system that does not

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<v Speaker 3>break for at least two years and ideally recycles things,

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<v Speaker 3>and we just do not have that technology figured out yet.

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<v Speaker 3>There was bios here too, which is sort of well

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<v Speaker 3>known as being a bit of a catastrophe. And then

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<v Speaker 3>they're like, right now, we've got facilities in China, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>that try to run these experiments, and in a recent

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<v Speaker 3>round they had to swap out two big guys for

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<v Speaker 3>two smaller females because they weren't making enough oxygen. That's

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<v Speaker 3>where we are right now. If that happened on Mars,

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<v Speaker 3>that would be death instead of just swapping out crew members.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think we're actually like, is Elon Musk the

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<v Speaker 1>guy who's going to do this? After doing all this

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<v Speaker 1>research Is he the one who's going to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to do this?

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<v Speaker 3>I hope not, so I have to I am very

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<v Speaker 3>impressed with what Elon Musk has done with SpaceX and

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<v Speaker 3>what he's done with Tesla, and I am coming to

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<v Speaker 3>you right now from a Starlink connection, and so I

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<v Speaker 3>love his projects. I don't think that he's the best

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<v Speaker 3>person to lead us into becoming a multiplanetary species, but

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not that worried about it because I think his

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<v Speaker 3>timelines are way off. He's I think he's famously said that,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, once the rockets have been figured out, the

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<v Speaker 3>rest is going to be easy. But I think the

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<v Speaker 3>whole point of our book is that rockets are one

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<v Speaker 3>hard part, but there's a lot of other hard parts,

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<v Speaker 3>from figuring out, you know, the biology, to building the

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<v Speaker 3>habitats that are still sustaining, to figure out the geopolitical

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<v Speaker 3>hurdles that stand in our way. There's a lot more

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<v Speaker 3>than just rockets. And so I don't think Mars is

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<v Speaker 3>going to be leading our Musk is going to be

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<v Speaker 3>leading us out there in our lifetimes.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, Kelly, you have fun with this in the book.

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<v Speaker 2>You and your husband. I mean, you've got a PhD.

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<v Speaker 2>In ecology. You are a faculty member in the biosciences

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<v Speaker 2>department at Rice Universities, so you're a serious You've got

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<v Speaker 2>a serious side, but you have fun with this. Why

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<v Speaker 2>was it important to lay this out? Is it because

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<v Speaker 2>people are focusing too much time, money, and effort on

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<v Speaker 2>this one. Maybe it doesn't quite make sense yet or

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<v Speaker 2>may never well.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, so, I mean we started the book thinking that

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<v Speaker 3>it maybe did make sense, But the more research we did,

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<v Speaker 3>the more we discovered that there's a lot of a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of topics that aren't getting, you know, for enough

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<v Speaker 3>airtime and enough of people's attention. And the topics you know,

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<v Speaker 3>maybe don't sound as exciting as rockets and rocket science,

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<v Speaker 3>and they're just sort of like boring long term work

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<v Speaker 3>that needs to be done to try to understand things

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<v Speaker 3>like how partial gravity impacts bone development across you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the course of a lifetime. And we decided that we

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to be funny in this book because we wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to get really deep into the details. So, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>there's five chapters on international law as it pertains to space,

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<v Speaker 3>And when we pitch that to our editor, she's like,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know that the general public is dying for

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<v Speaker 3>five chapters on international law, so you better make it funny,

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<v Speaker 3>and so we tried to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So when you're thinking about what life actually looks

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<v Speaker 1>like on other planets, is it something that humans should

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<v Speaker 1>actually pursue if the timeframe actually gives us enough time?

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<v Speaker 1>Or should we focus on I don't know, making the

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<v Speaker 1>most of the Earth that we've got.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think that space is not going to be

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<v Speaker 3>a near term solution for any of the problems that

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<v Speaker 3>we have here on Earth. So you know, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>folks like Bezos argue that we should move all of

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<v Speaker 3>our heavy industry to space so that we're not polluting

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<v Speaker 3>Earth anymore, and maybe we can you know, zone Earth

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<v Speaker 3>as light residential. We'll move a bunch of people up

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<v Speaker 3>to space too. I think the numbers just don't work

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<v Speaker 3>out for stuff like that. So, you know, if you

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<v Speaker 3>think about moving humans off the planet to take care

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<v Speaker 3>of population growth issues, you have to move two hundred

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<v Speaker 3>and twenty thousand people to space every day. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know where you're going to get those volunteers, and we

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<v Speaker 3>don't even know how to house them. So I think

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<v Speaker 3>any problem that we're likely doers. He's looking for volunteers,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think he'll get a lot. I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>if he's going to get that many, And again we

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<v Speaker 3>don't have anywhere to put them because we don't know

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<v Speaker 3>how to keep that many people alive in space. But

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<v Speaker 3>if you're interested in a backup for humanity, I think

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<v Speaker 3>a long term plan B could be good. So you know,

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<v Speaker 3>if you start the settlement on Mars now, many generations

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<v Speaker 3>from now, it might be self sustaining. And if you

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<v Speaker 3>like humans, which I do, then it might be good

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<v Speaker 3>to have a backup in case something happens on Earth.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's not going to save us anytime.

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<v Speaker 2>Soon, Kelly. One thing I would argue, though, is that

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<v Speaker 2>many would say that the race to put a man

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<v Speaker 2>on the Moon led to lots of innovation, Belcer, I

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<v Speaker 2>know you're gonna set that no, but some really really

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<v Speaker 2>important developments, right. It really kind of brought nations together,

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<v Speaker 2>scientists together on a single mission, but it led to

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<v Speaker 2>so much many offshoots off of that wouldn't Similarly, the

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<v Speaker 2>pursuit of Mars maybe lead to that as well. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's a good kind of thing to focus on and

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<v Speaker 2>have a goal of, as difficult as it may be.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. But so, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>you talked about countries being brought together by the Apollo program,

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<v Speaker 3>but the Apollo program was really fueled by a rift

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<v Speaker 3>between the Soviet Union and the United States. JFK was

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<v Speaker 3>sort of famously not even actually that interested in space,

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<v Speaker 3>but it was a very clear thing that we could

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<v Speaker 3>do to beat the Soviets. And you know, it's a

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<v Speaker 3>military prestige thing. The rockets that you're sending those humans

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<v Speaker 3>to space and could also be delivering you know, missiles,

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<v Speaker 3>and so I think a lot of times going to

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<v Speaker 3>space is not necessarily about bringing people together and the

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<v Speaker 3>new technologies. Historically it has also been about trying to

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<v Speaker 3>show up our enemies, and that might be what drives

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<v Speaker 3>us to Mars or to the Moon. Again. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>competition with China is heating up at the moment, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think we should you know, yes, yes it might

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<v Speaker 3>drive innovation and that's exciting, but we need to weigh

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<v Speaker 3>that against you know, concerns with how this sort of

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<v Speaker 3>this conflict might you know, spark problems down on Earth.

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<v Speaker 3>But yes, you know, you might get some new technologies,

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<v Speaker 3>but there's other things you could invest in to get

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<v Speaker 3>these new technologies too.

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<v Speaker 2>Fair enough, fair enough, Kelly, thank you so much. Really

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<v Speaker 2>fun and interesting. Kelly Wiener Smith, co author of City

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<v Speaker 2>on Mars? Can we settle space? Should we settle space?

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<v Speaker 2>And have we really thought this through? As we said?

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<v Speaker 2>She wrote this with her husband, Zach, and she was

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<v Speaker 2>joining us from Charlottesville for Jamie.

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<v Speaker 1>And today's the day the book comes out today.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd be sure to check it out