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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly

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Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. This week we talked

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Speaker 1: about Bram Stoker. Finally we did and thought we had

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Speaker 1: done it before, which we didn't. Before we did not, because,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, I sure would have remembered that

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Speaker 1: Walt Whitman stuff. Yeah, it's pretty great. Is there like

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Speaker 1: a compilation of these letters? Like? Are the letters easy

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Speaker 1: to find and read? Because I'm fascinated. I found excerpts

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Speaker 1: of them printed in various books, and different authors have

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Speaker 1: used different ones, but I wanted to include. There was

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Speaker 1: literally part of me that was like, can I piece

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Speaker 1: together all of these letters? And maybe this episode is

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Speaker 1: just a staged reading of his strange letter and then

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Speaker 1: we'll do a top and a tale on it. But

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Speaker 1: that seemed weird. I love this idea. I want to

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Speaker 1: read a little bit of one so you understand how

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Speaker 1: sort of odd they were, because he did go on

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Speaker 1: and on about how amazing Walt Whitman was. But then

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Speaker 1: like at one point he includes the following passage, I

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Speaker 1: am six ft two inches high and twelve stone weight,

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Speaker 1: naked and used to be forty one or forty two

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Speaker 1: inches around the chest. I am ugly but strong and

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Speaker 1: determined and have a large bump over my eyebrows. I

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Speaker 1: have a heavy jaw and a big mouth and thick lips,

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Speaker 1: sensitive nostrils, a snub nose, and straight hair. This is

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Speaker 1: odd to include in a letter in my opinion, and

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Speaker 1: I here's the thing. I don't It's funny to me,

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Speaker 1: but I also don't want to make fun of it,

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Speaker 1: because there is an earnestness to it and an openness

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Speaker 1: that is kind of refreshing. It's very stream of consciousness.

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Speaker 1: It's just so arresting in tone to have someone's speak

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Speaker 1: of himself this way. It's very I don't, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's a strange thing, and it's it's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that a lot of people use as analysis when

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Speaker 1: they talk about whether or not they believe that he

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Speaker 1: was possibly a latent homosexual or not. That gets into

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Speaker 1: such a tricky area because I feel like I completely

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Speaker 1: understand the desire for representations and to identify people in

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Speaker 1: the l g B, t q I spectrum throughout history

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Speaker 1: to recognize that they have always been part of the

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Speaker 1: world and part of the things we talked about. And

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Speaker 1: but in the case of bram Stoker, I always feel

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Speaker 1: a little odd about it, only because I feel like

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Speaker 1: he didn't know what was going on with himself. So

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Speaker 1: it it always feels a little bit this is not

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Speaker 1: what it is. But in my heart, the thing that

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Speaker 1: makes me trepidacious about it is it almost feels like

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Speaker 1: when you label a child is like gifted or you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, And then a kid doesn't have

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Speaker 1: any say, but that label gets put on them and

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Speaker 1: becomes part of their identity that they have to live

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Speaker 1: up to or or reckon with. And in bram Stoker's case,

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Speaker 1: it really does seem like he was not coping with

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Speaker 1: a lot of things going on subconscious. So there's also

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Speaker 1: a difference between interpreting someone's written body of work and

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Speaker 1: like having things they wrote about their own internal life. Right,

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Speaker 1: There's are two different things, yes, and people can definitely

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Speaker 1: read work and come to profoundly different conclusions then the

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Speaker 1: author intended than when they wrote something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So like that that's one of the ways that it

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Speaker 1: gets tricky when somebody's when somebody doesn't have like a

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Speaker 1: lot of introspection left behind for us to read well

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Speaker 1: and I think um. And that is to say, I

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Speaker 1: absolutely don't want to sund like I am denouncing anybody

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Speaker 1: who looks at Stoker's work with the critical lens of

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Speaker 1: if this is, you know, in some ways informed by

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Speaker 1: his sexual orientation being one way or the other, and

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Speaker 1: then kind of looking at the text and what that

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Speaker 1: could mean in that way. It's just the I I

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Speaker 1: always feel a little bit strange when people make declarative

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Speaker 1: statements and go, he was this, and I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he might have been, but even he didn't know. Ye well,

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Speaker 1: And also one of the things that's really important is

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Speaker 1: to like not assign people identities that they they did

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Speaker 1: not have access to in their own lives. Like that

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Speaker 1: gets really tricky. Oh yeah, it comes up on the

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Speaker 1: show all the time. Yeah, yeah, I don't know why

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Speaker 1: I had like this almost motherly thing with Bram Stoker

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Speaker 1: where I'm like, no, no, he didn't, he didn't know.

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Speaker 1: He's like this giant man. I'm the subject of Dracula.

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Speaker 1: I have a similar response to Dracula as I do

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Speaker 1: to the work of HP Lovecraft in general, which is

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Speaker 1: that I enjoy adaptations of the thing quite a lot,

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Speaker 1: and much more than I enjoy reading the thing directly.

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Speaker 1: And a big reason for that with Dracula specifically is

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Speaker 1: that bram Stoker would do this thing where he would

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Speaker 1: just have these extended passages that were like a common

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Speaker 1: person in quotation marks speaking in some kind of accented dialect. Oh,

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Speaker 1: he loves he loves to do it so much, and

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Speaker 1: for me personally, it is painful to try to read

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Speaker 1: it um like in some cases it's barely comprehensible. And

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Speaker 1: I remember I read Dracula. I might have actually read

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Speaker 1: it in two different classes in college, but for sure

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Speaker 1: one class in college, and I just remember slogging through

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Speaker 1: these passages that were like sort of how bram Stoker

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Speaker 1: thought this, like you know, uneducated doc worker talked, and

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Speaker 1: I was just like, I cannot deal with you why.

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Speaker 1: That is a valid But that's not a one for

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Speaker 1: one comparison to Lovecraft. But just the fact of like

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Speaker 1: enjoying adaptations more than enjoying reading the thing itself is

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Speaker 1: is still true. Now have you read any of the

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Speaker 1: supplemental work that his I believe it is his great

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Speaker 1: grand nephew Daker Stoker has written I don't think so. Um.

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Speaker 1: He has written some stuff in recent years that's like

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Speaker 1: a um uh, some sequel action and some other supplemental stuff.

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Speaker 1: The actual text of Dracula is also a whole other

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Speaker 1: thing that can be discussed in terms of its own

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Speaker 1: history and what got edited out versus got included again

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Speaker 1: versus you know, republished in a slightly different way. There

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Speaker 1: is um the original version, and I haven't done a

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Speaker 1: comparative analysis on any of this, but I was reading

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Speaker 1: something that talked about how in the original version, despite

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Speaker 1: Stoker having been so meticulous about these timetables, there are

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Speaker 1: timelines that don't add up and that may have been

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Speaker 1: an editor kind of being like no, no, no, but not.

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Speaker 1: And then in subsequent versions where it was um re

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Speaker 1: edited and perhaps some of that added back in, it

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Speaker 1: makes a little more sense on the timeline um. But

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Speaker 1: like I said, I haven't done a comparative on that,

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Speaker 1: but it's an interesting thing to consider. Um as well

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Speaker 1: as that whole madness with the Icelandic version, Powers of

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Speaker 1: Darkness is very enjoyable thing and great for this time

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Speaker 1: of year. So yes, Bram Stoker. The other thing I

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Speaker 1: wanted to mention that is interesting about him. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: get talked about a lot, and I didn't go very

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Speaker 1: far down this particular rabbit hole. Is that as he

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Speaker 1: and his siblings aged his mother Charlotte way ahead of

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Speaker 1: the suffrage move it kind of became a women's rights activist,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting. The kids she had mostly like

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Speaker 1: homeschooled the kids up until they got to a certain point,

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Speaker 1: and was clearly really really interested in in making sure

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Speaker 1: that you know, they were not a super wealthy family.

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Speaker 1: They got by and they were fine, But even with

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Speaker 1: her daughter, she was like, education is more important than dowry,

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Speaker 1: Like I, this is what I value. Um. Yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: very interesting and I would love for somebody to do

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Speaker 1: a really deep dig in on her and and do

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Speaker 1: like a very lengthy annotated biography. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: it will ever happen. Maybe it exists and I just

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Speaker 1: never found it possible. That is our Bram Stoker discussion

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Speaker 1: for the week. Uh, and hopefully it was a fun

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Speaker 1: addition to the October Lord that we tend to cover

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Speaker 1: this week. We have an interview that I did with

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Speaker 1: Dr Catherine Sharp Landic which was so long in the works.

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Speaker 1: I alluded to this a little bit in the episode

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Speaker 1: UM way way back when she came onto the show

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Speaker 1: to talk about the Women Air Force Service Pilots, which

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Speaker 1: that is still in the archive. Um, we are not

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Speaker 1: bringing it back as a Saturday Classic this month because

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Speaker 1: this it's October, and I feel like we're just we're

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Speaker 1: doubling down on the October a little bit this year

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Speaker 1: for the most part, because I know for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that's their favorite episodes of the year, not

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Speaker 1: just Holly. Definitely Holly's favorite episodes of the year, but

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Speaker 1: every October we get so many emails from people that

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Speaker 1: are like, I love the October episode so much that like,

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Speaker 1: we're we're focusing the Saturday's on Halloween e stuff too.

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Speaker 1: So you can definitely go find those Women Air Force

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Speaker 1: Service Pilots uh interviews in the archive. They are still there.

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Speaker 1: But Yeah, she had mentioned Jackie Cochrane shortly after that,

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Speaker 1: and I was really reluctant because I was just afraid

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Speaker 1: it was gonna cover too much territory that had already

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Speaker 1: been covered. And Number One, in the earlier episode that

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Speaker 1: Jackie Cochrane appears, and she's not in there for that long,

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Speaker 1: it's not that much about her at all. But then

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Speaker 1: number two, she was just such a character in so

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Speaker 1: many ways. Like I don't think this came up in

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Speaker 1: the interview, but there are accounts of you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the people who were flying with the Wasp, and

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Speaker 1: they would be at the airfield training and this car

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Speaker 1: would drive up and Jackie cochrane would step out of

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Speaker 1: it just looking so glamorous and like she was in

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Speaker 1: a uniform but still somehow looking so incredibly glamorous. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I just I was captivated by her whole story.

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Speaker 1: With all of that, the listener mail that you read

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Speaker 1: in that episode about some sickness made me laugh and

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Speaker 1: I didn't want it to rail the episode. But we

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Speaker 1: haven't done in the last several years. But I used

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Speaker 1: to Every Father's Day, my dad and I would go

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Speaker 1: deep sea fishing. But I have talked about my dad before.

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Speaker 1: He's a very no nonsense man and his rule. I

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Speaker 1: have mercifully never gotten sea sick on one of those trips,

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Speaker 1: even though uh, thanks have gotten dicey for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people on board. But the thing that my dad

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Speaker 1: will always say is I don't care if you puke

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Speaker 1: a puke off the side, because if you puke in

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Speaker 1: the back, it gets churned up in the wake and

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Speaker 1: then um, it just makes me laugh so much thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I don't I've never been on a cruise,

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Speaker 1: so I want to go on one just to see

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Speaker 1: if I get seasick or not well. And we were

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Speaker 1: gonna but it got canceled because it. Um my grandfather

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Speaker 1: on my mom's side, Um, who is sadly no longer

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Speaker 1: with us, loved to deep sea fish so much, but

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Speaker 1: he also had such terrible seasickness that he would literally

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Speaker 1: set his line and then just lie there on the

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Speaker 1: deck until until he needed to do something to attend

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Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, you really can. I mean, I love

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Speaker 1: deep sea fishing. For me, it's kind of one of

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Speaker 1: the few times you will ever ever see me truly relax.

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Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, And it's just because one, I mean

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Speaker 1: I like being on the water. But two, when we go,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a little charter boat and it's like

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Speaker 1: there's no internet, No one can email me or call me,

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Speaker 1: no no connection to anything, so all you can do

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Speaker 1: is just hang out. Yeah, and it's like my brain

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Speaker 1: just goes all right, I got no recourse. I may

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Speaker 1: as well just chill right out. So on the when

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Speaker 1: I have been on cruises, often the cruise ship you

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Speaker 1: can get an internet package. It's usually pretty expensive and

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Speaker 1: very very slow internet. And the first one that I

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Speaker 1: ever went on, I paid for an internet package to

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Speaker 1: be able to check in with work and that I

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Speaker 1: don't know what nothing I was doing was that important. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And it took me so long to connect any every

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Speaker 1: time I try to check in with work that I

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Speaker 1: was like, I wasted too much of this trip. So

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Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not going to do it that way anymore. Um.

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Speaker 1: And there were a couple of them where I really

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Speaker 1: did totally discon like there were people who knew how

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Speaker 1: to contact the ship in case of an actual emergency,

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Speaker 1: but I was not having any kind of email or

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Speaker 1: anything like that while I was there, and it was

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Speaker 1: really nice to just be like, people cannot get to

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Speaker 1: me right now, and I'm gonna not think about this

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Speaker 1: at all. Um. And then the most recent cruise that

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Speaker 1: I took was the opposite of that, because a pandemic

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm just gonna so much for relaxing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had gotten a cell phone package from my my

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Speaker 1: cell phone provider. I had gotten a package for use

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Speaker 1: on the cruise ship so that our pet sitter could

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Speaker 1: update us every day, and I was like, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to use all of these minutes finding out what's

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Speaker 1: happening with this pandemic and being worried about whether we're

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Speaker 1: going to be able to disembark from this ship, which

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Speaker 1: we were indeed able to do anyway. We had we

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Speaker 1: talked about that whole story on that that whole earlier

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Speaker 1: episode where we talked about the fact that we're living

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Speaker 1: through a pandemic. Still. It's October. That was in March.

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Speaker 1: I'm only laughing because I don't know what else to do. Yeah, yeah, Um.

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Speaker 1: Folks who have emailed us recently have asked whether we

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Speaker 1: are still doing okay. We are still doing okay. Um.

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Speaker 1: You and I are both very fortunate to be able

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Speaker 1: to do our jobs from home and have minimal contact

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Speaker 1: with other people still, and like I have the double

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Speaker 1: fortunateness of having already been set up to do that

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Speaker 1: before we even had to because of the pandemic. So

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Speaker 1: we hope our listeners are doing as well as possible. Yes, indeed,

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