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Speaker 1: Hi, Hey everybody, how are you? Hopefully great? I hope

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Speaker 1: so we can't hear you, so scream all you want,

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Speaker 1: but you need to deposit and tell us about your day.

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Speaker 1: Feel free, And here's a couple of responses that should

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Speaker 1: handle any situation. Well that's awesome. Congratulations. Oh I'm so

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Speaker 1: sorry to hear that, but I'm glad you're doing all right.

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Speaker 1: What you need to keep in mind is that you

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Speaker 1: are enough. You're always going to be enough. So forget him,

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Speaker 1: just settle his stuff on fire. Well, here's what I

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Speaker 1: think you need to do. I think you need to

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Speaker 1: pack your own parachute next time. There's always room for improvement. Okay,

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Speaker 1: goals are good, attainable goals. Hopefully one of those was

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Speaker 1: a good response to whatever it is you're feeling right now.

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Speaker 1: We'll keep working on it. On generic response, Clip out

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Speaker 1: one of those, plant back for yourself if it feels right,

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Speaker 1: and I hope it helps. Yeah. Yeah, otherwise, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. I know we're providing more than just stories today.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to be a friend. We're trying to somehow

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Speaker 1: have a back and forth. Yeah, speaking of back and forth,

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Speaker 1: we have been getting some really lovely and wonderful feedback

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Speaker 1: from you guys. That's true. I mean really, since the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, a lot of y'all have been so so

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Speaker 1: kind and so many lovely messages. Yeah, because he's really uh,

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Speaker 1: they keep us going, you don't know from you For us,

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Speaker 1: that's serotonin hit starts to feel like you guys are

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Speaker 1: our friends too, which is really nice. Yeah, like these

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Speaker 1: connections we've been making. For example, Beneath messaged us from

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Speaker 1: India and he said that he loves listening to the

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Speaker 1: show on his commute and he'll even go back to

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Speaker 1: his wife after after he gets home from work and

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Speaker 1: kind of recount the stories back to her again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he said she enjoyed that too, which is great.

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Speaker 1: We don't want our podcast to cause marital strife, which

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Speaker 1: is like shot up about your podcast what they say today, Oh,

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Speaker 1: they sound very funny. No, we're glad that that y'all

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Speaker 1: are enjoying sharing these stories together. Um. Also, my sister

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Speaker 1: Molly finally listened to her very first podcast episode ever.

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Speaker 1: She listened to de Lande McCullough episode. Um. Molly has

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Speaker 1: an amazing adopted son, little Matthew, and he's awesome and uh,

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Speaker 1: and my mom had messaged her and said, listen, you

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Speaker 1: gotta listen to this episode. You'll you'll actually appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So she finally put a podcast on first time ever.

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Speaker 1: She there's nothing she loves to say more than oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't listen to podcasts. I don't even listen to

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Speaker 1: my brother's podcast. I think that gives her a nice defense, like,

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Speaker 1: don't even try to push a podcast on me, But

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Speaker 1: now she can't say that, sorry, broke the seal. And Paige,

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Speaker 1: who has always got our back on Instagram, Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: is usually commenting or has reached out before, and we

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Speaker 1: we love we love her high page, we're fans. But

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Speaker 1: she might suggest with just the sweetest note wishing us

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Speaker 1: a happy six month anniversary because we're like halfway through

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Speaker 1: our first year, and also kind of gave a love

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Speaker 1: note for the aliens. Are aliens? Yeah? What were their names? Um?

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Speaker 1: Oh god, oh my god, oh my god. Of course

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Speaker 1: my name Hello, Hello, I'm back. I can't believe that

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Speaker 1: he's forgot adios so many times. I am named Ozarkay

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Speaker 1: and cleep block clepp lord, cleep lip clor cleep cleep lord.

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Speaker 1: That's the one cleep glor Thank you, Paige. We love you.

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Speaker 1: Tobe Page love you too. That's why we keep coming back.

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Speaker 1: My name, would you just like Ladie? Annie Gree also

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Speaker 1: very excited for the six month anniversary approaching on Friday.

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Speaker 1: It will have been fifty two episodes of Ridiculous Rodance

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Speaker 1: congratulation podcasts. Well you guys, um, you guys just really

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Speaker 1: know how to crash an episode, don't you. Thank you?

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Speaker 1: That's got to Page your past. Wow. Wow, Now I

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Speaker 1: don't know whether I like that or I mean you're leaving,

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Speaker 1: which is good, but okay, you're all right bye geez

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Speaker 1: all right, Well, thanks Page for invoking that little interruption. No,

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy if they actually make it to

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Speaker 1: your house. Be super weird if they know where you live. Though,

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Speaker 1: Page also said that she'll even sometimes like hold off

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Speaker 1: on listening to some of our episodes so that she

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Speaker 1: can put one on to make a bad day better.

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Speaker 1: I love Making somebody's bad day better means a lot,

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Speaker 1: does it really does? So Yeah, thank you to all

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Speaker 1: of you for any sweet message you've sent. Even if

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Speaker 1: we don't share it on the show, just know that

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Speaker 1: it's currently being embroidered onto a sampler to on the

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Speaker 1: wall and look out forever. As soon as I learned

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Speaker 1: to embroider it's happening, you're not going to learn to well.

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Speaker 1: We also, of course, sometimes get from you all very

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Speaker 1: awesome episode suggestions, and this one was suggested by Violet

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. Violet said, quote, I thought, since you seem

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Speaker 1: to be making an effort to not just do sis

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Speaker 1: head couples and they were so pioneering, that this couple

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Speaker 1: would be a great story for you. I love your podcast,

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Speaker 1: Please keep it up. Yes, thank you Violet for noticing

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Speaker 1: we are making an effort to not do just this

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Speaker 1: head couple. It doesn't take an effort necessarily, I think

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Speaker 1: if you just kind of let yourself open up a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Definitely, definitely, But it certainly is intentional to

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Speaker 1: pick couples that are not always white, straight American people.

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Speaker 1: This is a great story. I'm so so glad that

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Speaker 1: Violet suggested this one. Um, we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: today about Lily Elbe and Gerda Veganer and this is

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Speaker 1: like a big, huge epic story and there's just so

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Speaker 1: much information out there. Mostly this is going to be

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Speaker 1: coming from Lily's own memoir, which is titled Man into

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Speaker 1: Woman Um And obviously there's been a lot of advancement

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Speaker 1: in both science and language surrounding trans identity since since

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Speaker 1: this book was written and since her life experience. So

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Speaker 1: we did try to use, you know, her story from

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Speaker 1: her book and then some more modern resources that kind

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Speaker 1: of sort of interpret it and analyze it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But we also didn't want to truncate this story for

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Speaker 1: you because it's really very interesting. These are really fascinating people.

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Speaker 1: So we are going to break this one into two

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Speaker 1: parts just so we can really give it like the

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Speaker 1: time it deserves. So inin R Magnus Andreasvegner was born

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Speaker 1: in Denmark. When he was attending the Royal Danish Academy

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Speaker 1: of Fine Arts in Copenhagen, he met Gerda Gottlieb and

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Speaker 1: it was love at first site. These two creatives married young.

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Speaker 1: They cut a swath the art world, his landscapes one prizes.

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Speaker 1: Her colorful art deco paintings were really popular. But one

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Speaker 1: day Gerda's model Anna was unable to come to a

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Speaker 1: portrait session, and I are agreed to stand in for her.

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Speaker 1: But once IINR put on Anna's dress and shoes, something

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Speaker 1: within him was stirred, and he would need his wife's

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Speaker 1: love and support while he figured out who he really was.

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Speaker 1: So let's hear the story about Lily Elbe born in Rvegner,

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Speaker 1: one of the very first people to receive gender reassignment surgery,

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Speaker 1: and her loving wife Gerda. Oh, I am very interested.

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Speaker 1: Let's go. Yeah, hey, their French come listen. Well, Elia

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Speaker 1: and Diana got some stories to tell. There's no matchmaking,

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Speaker 1: a romantic tips. It's just about pridiculous relationships, a love

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Speaker 1: there might be any type of person at all, and

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Speaker 1: abstract cons A don't a concrete wall. But if there's

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Speaker 1: a story where the second glance ridiculous rom that a

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Um, so real quick right

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Speaker 1: off the bat, before we get started. Usually when it

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Speaker 1: comes to a story about a transgender person, we we

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Speaker 1: don't like to you know, we don't want a dead

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Speaker 1: name and use their old pronouns because transgender people have

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Speaker 1: said that can be very harmful. And in fact, Lely

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Speaker 1: has some thoughts about this herself that are very interesting

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Speaker 1: that we'll get to later in the story. Um. But

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Speaker 1: it's and and also kind of very illuminating. It's like

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Speaker 1: a really interesting discussion. But inn Are and Leally are

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Speaker 1: referred to essentially as two separate people in Lely's recollections

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Speaker 1: in her memoir. So in the interest of like telling

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Speaker 1: her story the same way that she did, we're going

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Speaker 1: to treat it the same way. During the first part

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Speaker 1: of her life. We'll talk about inn Are, who uses he,

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Speaker 1: himn pronounce, And once she begins to call herself Lely

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Speaker 1: and use she her, we will do that as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to kind of follow her journey, you know,

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Speaker 1: as it unfolded. Of course, if you were speaking to

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Speaker 1: Leely today, you would not probably call her inn Are

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Speaker 1: or him. That would be very rude. In Are was

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Speaker 1: born in Denmark in eighty two, the youngest of four

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Speaker 1: children um and he was a fair skinned, blonde kid

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Speaker 1: with kind of long hair, so he says he was

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Speaker 1: sometimes mistaken for a girl. Um. One time on the playground,

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Speaker 1: some classmates of his put a girl's hat on his

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Speaker 1: head and they were kind of laughing about how much

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Speaker 1: he looked like a girl. And then when the headmaster

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Speaker 1: caught him in the hat, he thrashed him for wearing it,

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Speaker 1: and it really piste i are off because he was

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Speaker 1: like my classmates put put it on me. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even want to put this thing on. He wrote later

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Speaker 1: in his memoir Man into Woman that he quote did

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Speaker 1: not realize until many years later why my old teacher

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Speaker 1: had then felt it his duty to punish me. We

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Speaker 1: poor humans. What do we know about ourselves? How much

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Speaker 1: less about our neighbors. Because he was built on more

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Speaker 1: delicate lines than his classmates, he displayed more daring. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was more willing to get into scrapes in the

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Speaker 1: schoolyard or climb the tallest tree or something. You know.

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Speaker 1: He was trying to prove that he was a boy

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Speaker 1: and masculine. Yeah, overcompensate his masculinity, Yeah, exactly. He even

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Speaker 1: tried to make his voice sound deeper before puberty even happened.

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Speaker 1: Like he was just like, people were making fun of

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Speaker 1: my high voice, so I would try to talk deeper.

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Speaker 1: And he called it his first dissimulation. Interesting. Now he

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Speaker 1: got more and more interested in art, although his father

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Speaker 1: tried to discourage him and point him in more like

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Speaker 1: practical direction. That sounds familiar, Yeah, son, jo Atobi an artist.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. If I can't you be something

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Speaker 1: more masculine, like a bridge builder. A postal worker, yes,

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Speaker 1: what do they do a postal worker the most masculine,

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Speaker 1: A professionalist. I don't know how it mattered. His dad

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Speaker 1: was like, it's practical, okay, everybody needs mail. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: pay you for us. Great job. So eventually his family

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Speaker 1: realized that he wasn't going to do anything else, so

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Speaker 1: they were like, all right, fine, off you go to

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Speaker 1: the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen. And

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Speaker 1: he was nineteen years old when he went off, so

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Speaker 1: it was nineteen o one, and this is where he

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Speaker 1: met Gerta Gottlieb. Gerta was also from the provinces of Denmark.

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Speaker 1: She was a vicar's daughter in a very conservative family,

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Speaker 1: but she managed to convince them to send her to

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Speaker 1: the arts academy as well. I assume a similar argument

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Speaker 1: with her family. No, Gerta, you need to be a

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Speaker 1: woman being. I mean, what is the argument there. You

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Speaker 1: can't to be an artist. We need you to be

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Speaker 1: something practical, like a housewife. Don't make a painting, make

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Speaker 1: a baby. Yeah. Now, when they met, it was love

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Speaker 1: at first sight. During the day, their classes were divided

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Speaker 1: by gender, but the evening stures were mixed, and they

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Speaker 1: always sat right next to each other. They were inseparable

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Speaker 1: and quote indescribably happy in each other's company. And then

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Speaker 1: in nineteen o four, when in R was twenty two

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Speaker 1: and Gerda was eighteen, they went and got married. They

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Speaker 1: worked as illustrators, with in R painting landscapes and Gerda

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Speaker 1: illustrating books and fashion magazines, and she also painted portraits

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Speaker 1: and was working on one with the Danish actress Anna Larson.

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Speaker 1: One day, Anna was going to be late for sitting,

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Speaker 1: so she called Gerda to let her know, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's running late, and Gerda was like not happy to

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Speaker 1: hear about this. Hold up. She's kind of like, I

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Speaker 1: need to get this portrait going. All these actresses, what

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Speaker 1: is this always doing? Always on their own time? Like

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Speaker 1: how there everyone is the Swedish chef even though they're Danish. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: sorry Denmark, we don't know what you sound like something

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Speaker 1: like that. But Anna kind of had an idea. She said,

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Speaker 1: cannot I in R pose as model for the lower

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Speaker 1: part of the picture. His legs and feet are as

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Speaker 1: pretty as mine. Because Anna knew that on a previous occasion,

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Speaker 1: Inar had modeled as women's legs for Gerda, but in

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Speaker 1: that situation, it had been more about capturing the you know,

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Speaker 1: the draping of a skirt. So he didn't have to

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Speaker 1: put on a dress. He just kind of like probably

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Speaker 1: laid it over his lap or something, and she she

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Speaker 1: just kind of got captured the drape that she was

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Speaker 1: looking for. He had light lands or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But Gerda went to Einar and told him what Anna

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Speaker 1: had suggested, and I Are at first was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to dress up like Anna for your painting,

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Speaker 1: like absolutely not, that's crazy. But Gerta kind of coaxed

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Speaker 1: with him and pleaded with him and joked about it

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Speaker 1: and sort of was like, come on, get come on,

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Speaker 1: what's the big deal, And he finally agreed. So they

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Speaker 1: kind of had a good time putting on Anna's stockings

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Speaker 1: and her dress and her heels, and Gerda even like

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Speaker 1: dug up a wig for him to wear and like

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Speaker 1: put makeup on his face and everything, and one they

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Speaker 1: were done, they could not believe how good he looked.

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Speaker 1: Gerda said, a perfect ladies model. You looked just as

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Speaker 1: if you had never worn anything but women's clothes in

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Speaker 1: your life. And I now realized that he liked the clothes.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he quote felt at home in them from

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Speaker 1: the first moment. Now Gerda started to paint, and just

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Speaker 1: then Anna Larson walked in. At first she didn't recognize

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Speaker 1: in are, but when she did, she loved it. It's

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Speaker 1: like perfect, Oh, this is such a good look for you.

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Speaker 1: She said. He clearly had been a woman in another

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Speaker 1: life quote or else nature has made a mistake with

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Speaker 1: you this time in our plan to put his own

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Speaker 1: clothes back on now that Anna was there to pose,

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Speaker 1: but Anna said, quote, I couldn't bear to meet inner

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Speaker 1: again today and asked him to stay in the clothes.

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Speaker 1: Then she named him Lily, and they celebrated his christening day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she said that he had to have a beautiful, melodious

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Speaker 1: name because he looked so he just was so beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It had to Yeah, She's like, you need a name

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Speaker 1: to fit. But they kind of at this point early on,

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Speaker 1: they kind of all, we're seeing a sort of a

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Speaker 1: big joke that people that that he looked so good

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Speaker 1: in the clothes and everything. And a few weeks after this,

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Speaker 1: a big artist's ball was being held, and Gerda suggested

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Speaker 1: that Lily should go with her and kind of be

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Speaker 1: introduced to the art world. Oh yeah, you know, see

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Speaker 1: see what happened? You know. I think part of it too,

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Speaker 1: is a challenge of like will anyone recognize you? And

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. And uh, Lily was very popular at

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Speaker 1: this party. She was solicited for many dances. She was

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Speaker 1: kissed and grabbed by a bunch of dudes. She told

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Speaker 1: one guy that she was really a man and woman's

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Speaker 1: clothing and he refused to believe her. And she even

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Speaker 1: had a punch of guy in the face because he

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Speaker 1: would not let her go. Probably happened to six other

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Speaker 1: women at that party too, I know, all right, She's like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I already had a black eye,

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Speaker 1: but I gave him another one. Now. I had an

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Speaker 1: interesting time reading her memoir because, as you mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: the top of the episode, we're dealing with, you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody who was in a different time period. We didn't

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Speaker 1: have the same tools as we have now to have

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Speaker 1: this conversation. And it's partly because of her memoir that

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Speaker 1: we have any of this, you know, any of these tools. Now, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she she really gave a lot of context of her

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Speaker 1: experience by writing this memoir. For people who came after her.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's it is interesting to read because it

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Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, she definitely wrote it so people

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Speaker 1: wouldn't judge people like her and so that they would

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Speaker 1: understand her better and that they wouldn't think she was

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Speaker 1: some kind of pervert or um. And so there's so

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Speaker 1: many times when she really wants to highlight you know,

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Speaker 1: as a kid, people thought it was a girl. This time,

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Speaker 1: this time, and this time, there's another time someone thought

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Speaker 1: I was a girl. I like to push a pram

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Speaker 1: around with my sister, you know. And then after she

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Speaker 1: starts dressing as a woman, when she passes as a woman,

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Speaker 1: she really wants you to know about that. It really matters,

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Speaker 1: you know, almost as if it's like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: more validating, like like she's like c c C, like

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Speaker 1: she's pointing at all these examples throughout her life of

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Speaker 1: like I'm really a woman, ce c C. Everyone knew

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Speaker 1: it since I was a kid. Um. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that you need to have been mistaken for another gender

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Speaker 1: to have that battle going on in you. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I think she thought that you did well. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: I think also this will come up again and again

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Speaker 1: in her story that she was someone who grew up

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Speaker 1: with a very binary idea of what a man and

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Speaker 1: a woman was, and she fought very hard to make

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Speaker 1: sure either one of those identities fit in the category

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Speaker 1: of man or woman, through her sexuality at any given

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Speaker 1: in her life, through her presentation, through how other people

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Speaker 1: treated her. You know, she she definitely thought men are

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Speaker 1: one thing, women or another. In R is one thing,

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Speaker 1: Lily is another. You know, that that comes up. That

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Speaker 1: becomes very clear throughout her life that she felt that

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Speaker 1: way and it and it adds a challenge to it,

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Speaker 1: you know, and looking at it from today, I think definitely,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, there's several times in the memoir where she's

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Speaker 1: really quick to point out that in is not gay.

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Speaker 1: Inar is not gay. There's nine are never liked men,

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Speaker 1: you know, like she's just really worried that you'll think

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Speaker 1: Inr is gay and she wants you to know he

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Speaker 1: definitely definitely was not, like it really matters. And similarly

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Speaker 1: with Lily, but she's not gay, she doesn't like women.

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Speaker 1: You know, these are two different people with two different

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Speaker 1: you know, identities and sexualities. Yeah, so it's it's just

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Speaker 1: it's very interesting and it's just something to keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: because again we're trying to keep as many of her

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Speaker 1: own words as possible, So it's just something to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind as we talk. We just have a lot

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Speaker 1: more tools now than we than she did, so some

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Speaker 1: of the ways she talks about herself and sexuality and

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Speaker 1: gender roles and stuff like that is probably seems pretty

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Speaker 1: quaint now, you know what I mean. So I are

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Speaker 1: is going out as Lily more and more now, and

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Speaker 1: Gerda starts to paint Lily a lot now as well.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Lily becomes her favorite model, so they're starting

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Speaker 1: to become somewhat famous. In Copenhagen, her paintings of Lily

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Speaker 1: were really popular and they sold really well, but rumors

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Speaker 1: were kind of starting to circulate that Gerda's favorite model

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Speaker 1: was actually her husband in address, and that was kind

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Speaker 1: of weird and some folks out. So in n Gerda

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Speaker 1: got an invitation to exhibit her paintings of lilyan Paris,

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Speaker 1: and off they went to Paris because here it was

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Speaker 1: a little more liberal and inn are could live as

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Speaker 1: Lily more easily and more frequently more comfortably. Before we

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Speaker 1: go to Paris with Lily and Gerda, let's let's just

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Speaker 1: take a qui commercial break and welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Are and Gerda have gone off to Paris to do

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Speaker 1: some artwork there with the Parisians much more accepting and

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Speaker 1: liberal reagions. Yeah, and at this point in Are and

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Speaker 1: Gerda both are kind of seeing Lily as a separate person,

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Speaker 1: like they talk about her like she's just not in

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Speaker 1: the room, for example, like they talked about Are when

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Speaker 1: Lily Lily is there's not Oh, do you think Lily

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Speaker 1: is coming over tonight? Yes? No, she's getting her hair done.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Lily can come over tonight? I'd like

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Speaker 1: to see her. I'd like to spend some time with her.

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Speaker 1: I'll go talk to her, I'll see Hey, Peter, can

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Speaker 1: your friend spider Man come over? I'd really like to

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Speaker 1: meet him. Yeah, he'll be at the party. And i

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Speaker 1: Are says that Lily kind of became something of a

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Speaker 1: playmate for Gerda in these early days. Gerda was kind

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Speaker 1: of melancholy. Uh, Lily was carefree and serene, so sometimes

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Speaker 1: when she was feeling sad, I guess Gerda would be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: can I like to hang out with Lily? Still make

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Speaker 1: me feel better? Um? But I know didn't at this point,

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Speaker 1: wasn't dressing like Lily or living like Lily all the time. Um.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he says they spent an entire year in

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Speaker 1: Italy together without him once dressing as Lily, a year

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Speaker 1: that I calls the most care free year I ever

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Speaker 1: passed with Gerda. And he thinks it's because Italy was

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Speaker 1: like less oppressive than Denmark, and so Gerda didn't need,

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Speaker 1: you know, she her mood was fine or whatever, so

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Speaker 1: she didn't get the need for Lily, and so they

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Speaker 1: just never they never brought her up around. It was

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Speaker 1: less oppressive for Gerda. Gerda not so much about the

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Speaker 1: Lily versus in our situation, but just like Gerda was

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Speaker 1: a little more allowed to be herself, so she was happier.

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Speaker 1: So they went home to Paris, and they still didn't

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Speaker 1: talk about Lily much. They discovered that their hotel room

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Speaker 1: there was the same room that Oscar Wilde had spent

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Speaker 1: his final days, so they spent a lot of their

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Speaker 1: time reading his work to each other and are called

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Speaker 1: them lovely evenings. And one day Gerda was invited to

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Speaker 1: contribute to a magazine and she was wondering what she

386
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: would be able to offer because she didn't know any

387
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Speaker 1: models in Paris, so she asked Innar if Lily would

388
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Speaker 1: be willing to oblige, and in I was like, you know, sure,

389
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Speaker 1: Lily can come by, and Gerda paints Lily and their

390
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: contributions sold really well, so well in fact, that they

391
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Speaker 1: were able to settle in a studio in Paris. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and for a while, I think even for several years.

393
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Speaker 1: It seems Lily only appeared when Gerda needed a model. Um. Otherwise,

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00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 1: they're they're just happy and busy. They lived in Paris

395
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Speaker 1: and Versailles. They were both painting successfully. They built up

396
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Speaker 1: this real great circle of friends and arts acquaintances, and

397
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Speaker 1: everything's just kind of going great career wise for them.

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Speaker 1: And then at one point they traveled to Capri and

399
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Speaker 1: a guy there, you know, it was kind of just

400
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Speaker 1: like saying that he could always tell when a man

401
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: was trying to impersonate a woman or when a woman

402
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: was trying to personate a man. Anyone was since can

403
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: tell the difference. I like that it that this just

404
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 1: came up casually in conversation, Like you know what I've

405
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: been thinking lately, It's real easy for me to tell

406
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: when a man's dressed up as a woman. Anybody else

407
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: every good. He's like doing his his type five before dinner.

408
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: But of course Gerda could not resist this challenge. She

409
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: thought that was so funny that he was talking about that.

410
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: So she like looks over at in R and iron

411
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Speaker 1: R is immediately like, we're going to have to prove

412
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Speaker 1: this guy wrong. And so the very next day, Gerda

413
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: went out with her new friends that no one had

414
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: ever met before, a tall, lovely lady named Lily, and

415
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: everyone in their circle and Capri was like super into Lily.

416
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: This guy met her and was just like what a

417
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Speaker 1: lovely woman. You know. He like never suspect did anything

418
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: about in are um. So they did fool him. They

419
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: totally fooled the gay yeah, which wasn't been very satisfying.

420
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Speaker 1: He goes up to Lily and he's like, hey, lady,

421
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Speaker 1: you know one thing about me that I always like

422
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: to tell people, I can always tell the difference between

423
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Speaker 1: when a man is dressed up as a woman and

424
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Speaker 1: the real thing. Well, anyway, that's my that's my time,

425
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: thanks good night. And then you know people, of course

426
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: we're kind of like, oh, Gerda, where's Einar tonight? You know,

427
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: and she would just pretend that I are and Lily

428
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: didn't get along very well. She's like they don't like

429
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: each other, to kind of explain away why he wasn't

430
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: with them. Wow. Now at this point in are started

431
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: living like Lily more and more. He said that at first,

432
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: Lily would immediately go change back to in aar when

433
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: the portrait sessions were over or when visitors would drop by,

434
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: but now Lily would hang out and chat and stay

435
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: or remain in her clothes all evening. I started to

436
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: feel like Lily, who he was to see as a

437
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,239
Speaker 1: separate entity within his body. He was more and more

438
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: reluctant to let Innar have the body back. So it

439
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: became this like we're both in here, these sort of

440
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: two identities, and we're sort of trading time. Um. It

441
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: really kind of setting up this idea that there's a

442
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: competition for control um, which is going to play out

443
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: more and more. Yeah. Then they met a sculptor who

444
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: invited them to take part in this performance he was

445
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: putting on. So Gerda was responsible for painting the set.

446
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: She spent the whole day scene painting. But it came

447
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: time for curtain and one of the actresses had not

448
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: shown up and it wasn't like a big party. She's

449
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: like actresses, you know, showing up when you need that.

450
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: Can not rely on an actress? Well okay, I might

451
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: be the sweetish chef, but that was like you cannot

452
00:25:52,920 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: rely on as she's my gurtess from Russia. Uh well, anyway,

453
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: so this actress hadn't shown up. She had kind of

454
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: a minor part, but they couldn't do it without the

455
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: play without or she had like a couple of lines

456
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: that had to be said or whatever. So the friend

457
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: is like, hey, Gerda, come on, you're a lady, get

458
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: up there, you know. And Gerda was like exhausted from

459
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: painting all day. She's like, no, I'm not going to

460
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: do that, but um, you know my French friend Lily

461
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: might do it. Ir What do you think? Would you

462
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: go get Lily and I and I was like sure,

463
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 1: and he went to change quickly into Lily. He performed

464
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: this this minor part as this Parisian woman, and no

465
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: one had any idea that I that it was ire

466
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: under there. And so now at this point they had

467
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: started claiming that that Lily was in our sister um

468
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: and that whenever she was out with Gerda and I

469
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't there. They would just say I I was

470
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: was sick, or he was really busy with work or

471
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: something and he just couldn't come. So I brought my

472
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: sister in law with me. Here. She is what he

473
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: was ever like, well, I've never seen you too in

474
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: the same place at the same time. It's like a

475
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: Clark Kent. Yeah. Here, Lily, put on these glasses. I

476
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: just want to check something now. This was the night

477
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: that Lily first met an art dealer named Claude Provost.

478
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: He played a minor comic role in the play. Inner

479
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: describes him as having quote a droll, lightning wit and

480
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: completely irregular features and colorless, somewhat deep set eyes, the

481
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: whole capped by a funny pointed nose. At first glance,

482
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: he would probably appear ugly, but if one looked at

483
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: him somewhat longer, one would become conscious of a remarkable

484
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: geniality and kindliness, which his whole personality radiated. She's got

485
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: a lot of words. Oh yeah, yeah, but I do

486
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: like that that, She was like, Yeah, I mean, you know,

487
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: describing him, he doesn't sound like an attractive man. He

488
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: was attractive there's something really attractive about him, and it

489
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: was because he was just had this lovely kind heart. Yeah,

490
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: almost like the the energy of person radiates says more

491
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: about them than what you see on the surface. Yeah,

492
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: you know, what do you know? Claude had no interest

493
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: at all in ein Are, but when Lily was around,

494
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: he asked for her to dance with him all night.

495
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: And another time he escorted Lily back to her hotel

496
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: after this water carnival they went to, and he said

497
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: to her, quote, however you dress up and whatever you

498
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: want to make me believe you are a genuine girl.

499
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: And when Lily asked what he meant, he said, quote, oh,

500
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: nothing at all, or is it something? But if I

501
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: told Lily what I was just thinking and what I

502
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: have been thinking all day, her brother in Are would

503
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: certainly be very angry with me. So he figured it out. Yeah,

504
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: and I love it. He figured it out and then

505
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: was like, when you're in Are, that's the fake to me.

506
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: I don't know who that guy is. Lily's real for me,

507
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're playing around with these trousers for,

508
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: because this is the real person. Like he almost saw

509
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: her before she saw herself. It sounds like he was

510
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: simultaneously like respecting these two different people and also kind

511
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: of edging towards But really, though, come on, we all know,

512
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah it's your Lily. Yeah, which is so fat I

513
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: mean again, because she hadn't even really accepted this whole

514
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: thing about herself. It's so interesting that this guy was

515
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: able to see that and and accept it and be like,

516
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm into this person. And by then Claude was a

517
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: trusted friend of both Lely and Gerda, and I now

518
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: wrote that he was their quote brother and protector, and

519
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: the friendship between them became ever more intimate and permanent,

520
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: a friendship which stood every test, and Inner did notice that.

521
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: You know, if Claude came over and Iar opened the door,

522
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: Claude was perfectly polite to I are. They would like

523
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: talk for chat for a couple of minutes, like guys

524
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: do or whatever, and then he'd be like, well, haven't

525
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: said hi to Gerda yet. I'm gonna go see Gerda,

526
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: and he'd run off to hang out with Gerda. But

527
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: if Lily answered the door, Claude hung out with Lily

528
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 1: the whole time. He never asked to see Gerda anything,

529
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: so he just was like, I'm Lily, Lily is my gal, right,

530
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: And maybe he was kind of a little uncomfortable, more

531
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: uncomfortable around iin Are because I and Are felt like

532
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: the I don't know, not the fake, but the the front. Yeah,

533
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know. But maybe he was just like,

534
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: this isn't you, So I don't, I don't. I don't

535
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: like this guy. Still at this point, again, Inner is

536
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: living more and more like Lily, He's dressing more and

537
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: more like Lily, is going out more and more like

538
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: Lily and everything. But it's still sort of a joke.

539
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: It's kind of a real funny when they fool quote

540
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: unquote fool a man or any friend of theirs, like

541
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: especially if they know I Are and then they get

542
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: introduced to Lily and they don't know the difference. It's

543
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: like this hilarious. It's it's just so funny and amazing

544
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: and such a great joke. Um I Now wrote about

545
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: an incident when a baron danced with Lily at a

546
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: party and then the next day the baron showed up

547
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: demanding to see inn Are because he wanted to ask

548
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: his permission to propose to his sister Lily. He had

549
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: just been captivated by her the night before UM and

550
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: wanted to marry her, and Gerda had to come up

551
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: with some excuses about what I and I was not

552
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: here as I went home or something to Denmark. Anyway,

553
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: I'll let him know you're interested by like they like

554
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: fell out laughing about it. But it also was starting

555
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: to become a bigger and bigger concern for both of

556
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: them that like, this person clearly mattered a lot to

557
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: in are Lily was really important and she was becoming

558
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: more and more frequently a guest, I guess you could say,

559
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: in their life. And I Nor told her one day

560
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: how sad and strange. He kind of brought it up

561
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: with Gerda. He was like, how how sad and strange

562
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: would it be if I never dressed like Lily again?

563
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: And Gerda confessed that she had started to feel really

564
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: guilty about encouraging him to dress up as her model,

565
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: you know, back when Anna had not been able to

566
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: show up for this portrait. And she said quote, thus

567
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: becoming responsible for a disharmony in you, which reveals itself

568
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: most distinctly on those days when Lily does not appear. Yeah,

569
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: she she was like I did this to you because

570
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: even though that's debatable obviously, you know, it's not about

571
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: your clothes that make you feel one way or another

572
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: or that that is particularly an awakening experience or something

573
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: like that, but it clearly was sort of the trigger

574
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: for her. Oh we kind of like at this point,

575
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: I think that you know, they've been treating it sort

576
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: of like you said, a joke, kind of like a

577
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: a funny little rank they're pauling. But they've also given

578
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: Lily a whole life and relationships and a personality, and

579
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: Lily really exists now, so you can also see how

580
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: they're how sad she is to think what if what

581
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: if she went away forever? That's a whole person, um,

582
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: who matters to other people, who matters to me, um,

583
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: And I know you just see how tricky that that

584
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: must feel at this point. And and and she must

585
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: feel the same way about in are herself, you know,

586
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: saying but you know I as a whole person with

587
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: relationships and who matters to people, And they've almost created

588
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: a very complicated UM. This is this is I have

589
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: recognized this is the worst analogy to interject here, but

590
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: almost like a mirst doubt fire situation like I'm sorry,

591
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but just saying that, you know, herself has

592
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: set up a world where she has to exist as

593
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: both people in full and that that is becoming more

594
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: and more difficult to navigate. And at some point, like

595
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: one of these people is who she is? Um, you know,

596
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: we know that's Lily, but at this point in her

597
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: life she I don't think she understands who she is. No,

598
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: not yet, And I think that you're right. It's sort

599
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: of like if you were fighting for thirty years or

600
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: twenty something years to prove your masculinity to someone, right,

601
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 1: to other people, UM, you wouldn't entertain thoughts about wearing

602
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: women's clothes or something, you know what I mean, Like

603
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: you would fight against that. Um. And then when he

604
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: actually was wearing it and he felt so comfortable in them,

605
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: that might have been enough to kind of be like, hmm,

606
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: there's there's something more here than I had ever thought.

607
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: And then the more and more that he allows himself

608
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: to be comfortable in that those clothes and that's skin

609
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: sort of for that lack of a better word, the

610
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: more comfortable it is. That's just all it is. It's

611
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: just like the the and the more and more we

612
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: realize is I and are starting to be less comfortable

613
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: and Lily is more comfortable, you know what I mean.

614
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: And I think that is gradual. I don't think that's

615
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: an overnight thing. It's it's fascinating and of course we

616
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: can't directly relate, but but I think this story is

617
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: among the stories I've heard that helps me appreciate how

618
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: difficult that transition must be because of those two, because that's,

619
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, I imagine that even if you're sort of

620
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: like I really want to shed this person that I was,

621
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: that's there's attachments there, there's a life there that has

622
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: to kind of get set aside too, and I can't imagine. Uh,

623
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: And I just have so much uh, I don't know, respect,

624
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: just appreciation for what it challenge that must be. Yeah,

625
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, I've certainly never had to deal with that,

626
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: but this is a very I think, a very um

627
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: certainly a dated but clear example of having a deal

628
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, and and trying to put into words

629
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: that struggle within yourself. Like clearly, for a period of

630
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: time they were like cool, I can be both of

631
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: these things and it's no problem. But as time went on,

632
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: it became more and more clear that no, you can't too.

633
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: I there is not room for both of these people,

634
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: you know, again in their words, two different people living

635
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: in this body. And yeah, and so Gerda is feeling

636
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: real bad because she sees that this struggle is becoming

637
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: more and more of an issue for iin Are every

638
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: day that goes by, because when I are is inn Are,

639
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: he's withdrawn and depressed, He's kind of like low all day.

640
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: But when he was Lily, she's joyful and care free.

641
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: And you know, Gerda could tell the difference, and so

642
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: could I Are. And so they were starting to kind

643
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: of be like, oh, like there's there's there's more going

644
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: on here than we had thought. Originally, they felt that

645
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: for him to stop being Lily all together was tantamount

646
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: to a murder um, which is kind of like you say,

647
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: it's like, that's a whole person I who I love,

648
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: who other people love, who I care about. I don't

649
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: want her to go anywhere. But you know, they were

650
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: also like, but doing both of these things is not

651
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: serving you. You're clearly very troubled right now, like it's

652
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: it's tormenting you. And so Gerda's like, why don't we

653
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: go see a doctor and they go but you know,

654
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: the doctor doesn't tell him anything useful. He prescribes him

655
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: a nerve tonic. Of course it does nothing because he's like, wow,

656
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: you seem nervous. Anyway, Here you go, do some cocaine

657
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: about it. Here's some codeine and some cocaine, and see

658
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: which one works. So of course that neither of them worked.

659
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I know, is just getting more and

660
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: more depressed. He's like unable to paint, he's not doesn't

661
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: not sleeping. Well, he's really apathetic. You don't want to

662
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: do anything. Um, but Lily was happy, and so he

663
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 1: was Lily more and more and more, staying for days.

664
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: Lily would stay for days sometimes. And then his friend

665
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: Johann Poulson asked in r to sub in for a

666
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: ballet dancer in a performance. And I are agreed. I

667
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: mean that that alone is a lot. I don't if

668
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: you don't have experience in ballet sub in for ballet

669
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: dancer in the memories, like he knew I wasn't a

670
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: half bad dancer or something, and I was like, half

671
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: bad ballet is so hard. But you know, he was

672
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: probably the chorus. Why he's got to lift his legs

673
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: and a couple of times. Maybe you know. I was

674
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: in The Nutcracker when I was much younger. Um, when

675
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 1: I was kind of I must have been like eight

676
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: or nine. It was a touring show that came to Rochester,

677
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: where near where I lived, and I was I was

678
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: a Nutcracker and the audition was for kids to come

679
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: in and yeah, we were. We were background kids, like

680
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: at the at the party where uh, what's his name?

681
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: Jossell Meyer yossel Vustll the uncle gives her, gives her

682
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: the Nutcracker. Oscar Mayer gave her the Nutcracker and uh,

683
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: you know, we're just at the party and then there's

684
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: a scene. There's like an intro to the scene before

685
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: the curtain opens where we throw snowballs to each other. Anyway,

686
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: there was very little dancing involved, but the audition was

687
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: to like walk to a beat, and UM had crushed

688
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: some of those kids, some of them. I was just like, yeah,

689
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: this audition was really easy. How did they choose? There

690
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: was like eight of us. Yep, Yep. That was a

691
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: cool experience. Though I got to be in a ballet.

692
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: I gotta watch this guy jump. I mean, in my

693
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: memory this guy jumped thirty feet in the air over

694
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: and over again. It was the brother who's the rat King,

695
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: And I was amazed. I'm on stage, was like, how

696
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: how do you do that? Alley is a while they

697
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: look weightless. It's insane. Anyway, I could walk to a beat,

698
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: so I could walk to a bet. They asked him

699
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: to come in throw some snowballs at the rat King,

700
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: but during ballet rehearsals, he started to experience strange nosebleeds,

701
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: and Gerta thought that he was just taken on too much,

702
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: and she asked him to give up the part, but

703
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: Inar was reluctant to leave his friend in the lurch.

704
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: While dressing for the performance and in R is a

705
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: male ballerina dancer in this This is not Lily coming

706
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: in this is in our and a man backstage mistook

707
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: him for a woman anyway and slapped his ass. I

708
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: mean like that makes it okay? Well, and another actor,

709
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: seeing in are in his costume for the first time,

710
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 1: said he looked impossible in it, like, no, you don't

711
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: look right. Garta even remarked that ins bodies seem more

712
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: feminine in its proportions and that he was starting to

713
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: look strange in men's clothing. Just is interesting, right because

714
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: I don't think his body was really changing, and I

715
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: think so, yeah, I think they're just seeing him differently.

716
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: He's seeing himself differently, and so he's projecting kind of

717
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: a different energy and other people are picking up on that,

718
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: right because at this point there's nothing to have changed

719
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: but you know, physically yet. So anyway, I just think

720
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: that's very interesting that they were all reacting to that

721
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: nothing but energy, really mean, and it was affecting strangers,

722
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: and i'd are also describes quote complete revolution in my

723
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: character at this point in during the rehearsals for this ballet,

724
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: he said that he had always been somewhat imperious and condescending,

725
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: which doesn't make no sound great, I guess, but now

726
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: he felt a strong impulse to resign myself to a

727
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: to submit myself unconditionally to another will. And he was like,

728
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: you know, his old friend Johan, he would never have

729
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: just done whatever he said in the past, but now

730
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: that they're rehearsing, he's like, I'm just like, sure, whatever

731
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: you say, I'm following anything. He says. When his friends

732
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: so much as touched him, he says, quote, I felt

733
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: so confused. I did not know where to look. And

734
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: he's real quick to follow this up with In all

735
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: these psychic disturbances, nothing of an erotic nature played the

736
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: slightest part in this respect. Johan and I had thoroughly

737
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: sound natures. So again, this is where it kind of

738
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: coming up on some homophobia, like some some really old

739
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: ideas about gender roles and and sexuality and everything. Because

740
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: Einers kind of like the more submissive he becomes, he's

741
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: kind of saying, that's him becoming more woman, like, Um,

742
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: a man wouldn't be this submissive, so it must be

743
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: me becomeing more of more of lily. Uh, and women

744
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: are submissive, so that's it, you know, which I I

745
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 1: don't particularly like. No, I mean again, it just goes

746
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: back to this idea that these are people living in

747
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: a very rigid binary structure of what manhood and womanhood

748
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: is supposed to be. And is like yeah, and then yeah,

749
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: he's just so worried that we're going to think that

750
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: he's gay, that I nor is gay, and he's just

751
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, no, I have a sound nature,

752
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: you know, which is kind of sucked up, and he's like,

753
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: it's just this that I'm it's my woman nous that's

754
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: making me shy and submissive around men in authority, it's

755
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: it's nothing to do with sexual feelings or anything. That's

756
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: just how women feel around men. So that's how I

757
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: feel around men. Mm hmm. It's weird. It's tough. I mean,

758
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: like it goes to show that, like just being a

759
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: person on the LGBTQ spectrum does not come with you know,

760
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: enlightenment in your ideas about what sexuality and gender are like.

761
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: That still comes through a lot of you know, conversation

762
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: and respect and openness and you know, and again this

763
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: is a rigid time, some rigid people who were going

764
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: through something totally new to them, um, and it did

765
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: not automatically grant them insight and perspective on on the

766
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: limitless boundaries you know that come with gender. Where you

767
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: know he's and are saying a man looks like this,

768
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: a woman looks like this. We know now that there's

769
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: no there is no answer to that. There's nothing. A

770
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: man doesn't look like any one thing, a woman doesn't

771
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: look like any one thing. Not all people are either

772
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: men or women, you know all that well, And men

773
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: can feel sexual attraction for men. It doesn't mean that

774
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: you have a unsound nature, some freak or something. Right.

775
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: But before we get lost in in all this conversation,

776
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick commercial. We're going to come

777
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: back with the third act. In the first part of

778
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: this story about Aina and Lily and Gerda, I'll be

779
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: right back. Welcome back to the show. So in Aar

780
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,879
Speaker 1: and Gerda were getting desperate for answers. Ire is still

781
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: experiencing nose bleeds randomly, and he said they were accompanied

782
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: by pain as well as bouts of sobbing. Later on,

783
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: he began to see these nose bleeds as his body's

784
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: way of menstruating, and he went to see a couple

785
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: of doctors. One of them told inn Are that he

786
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: could tell there were some irregularities going on with his body,

787
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: but that he was healthy and there was nothing to

788
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: worry about. And that made ir decide that he had

789
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: two beings in his body, one a man and one

790
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: a woman, and the woman quote was in the process

791
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: of gaining the upper hand. The nose bleeds seemed to

792
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: be further proof of this to him, as well as

793
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: his body becoming subtly more feminine. Right where people were going,

794
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: you don't look right in men's clear stuff. He really

795
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: felt like this was like inside Lily was being like,

796
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 1: I'm taking over. I'm kicking you out right, you know.

797
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: He's like he's gone from Spider Man to Venom at

798
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: this point. For the for the second worst analogy of

799
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: the episode, we apologize to everyone. Um but yeah, of course,

800
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: obviously this is a terrible time emotionally for ein Are.

801
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: He's going through a real crisis here. He's more and

802
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: more disturbed. He's restless, he's depressed, he feels tortured in

803
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: his body, like literally, and Gerda decided, you know what,

804
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,959
Speaker 1: let's get some sunshine, Let's get some warmth. You'll feel

805
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: better if we go somewhere. Let's go to the beach.

806
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: He's like, you'll feel better for go to the beach.

807
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: I get that. That's usually my solution to problems as well.

808
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: And so they went to Italy, and I would like

809
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: to go to Italy. Feel better. If we go to

810
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: the beach in Italy, I will feel better. But tell

811
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: even if I feel the same, I'll still be on

812
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: a beach in Italy. Uh. It kind of reminds me

813
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: of Dorothy Putnam. She's like every time something's wrong going

814
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: to South America. So when they got to Italy, they

815
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: met up with a friend named Fernando Porta, and they

816
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: went to have dinner together. And at one point I

817
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: now realized during this dinner that Gerda was like smiling,

818
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: she's laughing, she looks younger than ever. Fernando's like beaming

819
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: at her and making her feel great, and he just

820
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: kind of started to feel like just this total waste

821
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: of space. You know, He's despondent. He's like, I'm weighing

822
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: Gerda down. You know, she's she's I'm just a sick man.

823
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: The only reason she's with me is because she knows

824
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: no one else understands me. I'm a burden, I'm an

825
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: albatross around her neck. Life, you know, held no attraction

826
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: for him anymore. And he thought, you know what, it

827
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 1: would just be better for everyone if I just died,

828
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: because then Gerda would be free, and so would I.

829
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be tormented anymore by by these problems that

830
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: I'm experiencing that I can't even put into words, that

831
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: no one can tell me what's going on. It was

832
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: the end of April nine, and I nor made himself

833
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: a promise he said, in a year's time on May one,

834
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: if I have not found a doctor to help me,

835
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill myself. And after he decided that,

836
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: he actually was feeling really relieved because he was like,

837
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: now I know my tormented life will be over one

838
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: way or the other a year from now. I have

839
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: got a year left of this horrible pain and torment,

840
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: and then it'll all be over, which is so sad

841
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: that he was like just feeling just so dark. I

842
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: guess that that he was like, it'd be better to

843
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: be dead. I would rather jump into a river and drown. Well,

844
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: and that and that this made him feel better, you know,

845
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: And that's I think just important to you're not here.

846
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: I identity isn't a burden to anyone, you know, it's

847
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 1: certainly not who matters. And this is just such Yeah,

848
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: it's it's a really upsetting that he found comfort in

849
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: that outlook and that he didn't have up something better,

850
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: something to help them through this process. Uh. And and

851
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: even though there were people who cared about both on

852
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: our and Lily, it still was so emotionally challenging to

853
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: go through this. I think that just shows how important

854
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: you know mental health care is now that we have

855
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: more advanced versions of it than we had back then,

856
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: that all kinds of circumstances can can lead to this

857
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: sort of behavior. Doesn't have to be that uh you know,

858
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: oh people are treating me like ship all the time.

859
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: You can have a good support group and still need help.

860
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 1: It can be something internal. Yeah, no one has any idea,

861
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: right And and I mean, it's really hard to transition

862
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: now today in it's incredibly hard and challenging and heart wrenching,

863
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: and you have to deal with all kinds of conversations

864
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: and who's gonna, you know, accept me and who isn't

865
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: and you know, and we have so much more at

866
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: our disposal than I had. Einer had none of this.

867
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: So it's like the torment that we already expect from

868
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: needing to transition, but an additional layer of no one

869
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: even knows what the funk I'm talking about, So I'm

870
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: just fully at sea. And so he also probably felt

871
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: like he was insane, like you know, sometimes maybe was

872
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: like maybe I'm just going crazy, you know what I mean?

873
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: You know, I also wonder too, just speculations station again,

874
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: because I have no direct connection to this experience. But

875
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: for for all the ways that it was more difficult,

876
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: I almost wonder if sometimes, in some ways it seems

877
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: like there was something easier to it because us there

878
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: was this the community that in R and Lily both

879
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: existed in seemed to be, you know, relatively accepting in

880
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: terms of the people they were close to. Um because

881
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: it's a smaller world back then. And I think now,

882
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: despite all the extra um, all the many years of

883
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:27,919
Speaker 1: conversation and advancement, you know, progression in acceptance and things

884
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: like that, you're still dealing with a much larger world

885
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: that you have to re identify yourself in. You know.

886
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: I mean imagine if Iiner already had a Facebook presence,

887
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: you know, with a thousand friends, that he also had

888
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: to be considering. You know. That's I just think it's

889
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: so weird how our world has become more and less

890
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: complicated at the same time, and it's a definite trade off.

891
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, Ar's health was getting worse and worse, so

892
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: they decided to go back to Paris, where they knew

893
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: more trustworthy doctors. So they left Rome and Fernando Porta

894
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: behind and they went back to Paris, where they told

895
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: inn Are that he was schizophrenic and they put him

896
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: under radiation treatment and this almost killed him. Yeah, I

897
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: was supposed to cure schizophrenia. Yeah, let me just coump

898
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: you full of radio. Don't they know? Radiation is how

899
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: you get the Incredible Hulk, which is like even further

900
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: version of schizophrenia. For the third worst reference in this episode,

901
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: We're doing great so far. It's all me. I'll take

902
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: it all. But yeah, I think this is interesting, just

903
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: to quickly interject, because I are, of course, is talking

904
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: about this as if he has multiple personalities, right, He's like,

905
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: there's Lily and there's inn are living in my body. However,

906
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 1: to be told that he was schizophrenic was super offensive

907
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,919
Speaker 1: to him. He was like, I'm not schizophrenic, right, It's

908
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: not that he did not feel that multiple personality disorder

909
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: type thing at all, um. And I just want to

910
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: point that out because you know, people nowadays try to

911
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: say that if you're transgender, you just have a delusion

912
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: or multiple personalities, or you're stick in the head or

913
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: something and you just need to go be corrected somehow

914
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: by someone some way. I don't know why, I don't

915
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: know how. What then you're talking about but I think

916
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: it's important to say, no, there's no link between being

917
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: transgender and having multiple personalities. That's not a thing. They

918
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: were wrong then and it's and it's wrong now. I

919
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 1: don't mean objectively wrong. I don't even mean ethnically wrong,

920
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: which it also is. Yeah, it's just not correct. Yeah,

921
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: it's an incorrect diagnosis, and it it's never worked right.

922
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: I think that just the two different people was the

923
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: best way for in our slash Lily to help us

924
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: understand the struggle that was happening within her. She did, again,

925
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: did not have many tools at her disposal to describe

926
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: this situation. It was part of the torment was that

927
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: she didn't, so it was kind of just the best

928
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: way for her to contextualize her own experience. But there

929
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: was no actual mental break when Lily came out. She

930
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: always knew where she was, She had, she remembered what

931
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: she did as Lily and stuff. There's just it's not

932
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: the same at all. And now in Are tried to

933
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: get lost and work more and more and lived more

934
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: time as Lily. Their friend Claude Provost visited often, and

935
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: like Gerda, he recognized that in Are was happier and

936
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: seemed healthier as Lily, so they both encouraged Lily to

937
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: be around as often as she liked. Right, Claude was like, honestly,

938
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: I prefer I prefer Lily, so right, no offense, I

939
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: but I. And when he was in Are, he ironically

940
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 1: started to hear comments that he looked more and more

941
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: like a woman impersonating a man in the street. Children

942
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: would go to their mothers and be like, hey, hey, mom,

943
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: look at that lady and man's clothes, and the mom

944
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: was like, shut up here, like church whatever they were

945
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: doing a particular day, and um, and when Lily was

946
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: out and about, no one battered an eye. But when

947
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: Einar was walking around even quote dressed perfectly correctly and

948
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: taking long masculine strides whatever that means, people thought that

949
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: he was a woman dressed like a man. He was

950
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: being mis gendered no matter what he did, and it

951
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: was kind of driving on Are crazy, making him more

952
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: and more nervous and depressed. They saw a few more doctors,

953
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: all of whom said, I aar was suffering from an

954
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 1: overactive imagination, or that he was a homosexual, and all

955
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: he had to do was act like a man and

956
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 1: he'd be fine, Yes, if you just act like a man,

957
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: you will be more of one. Yeah, that doesn't make

958
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: any sense. It's it's nonsense. They're they're again, they're trying

959
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: to assign a definition to what manhood is, to what

960
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,720
Speaker 1: masculinity is, to what straightness is, and none of that exists.

961
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: So obviously, guess what, surprise, it's not working, and weird

962
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: to say that when he's like, a listen, I'm walking

963
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 1: around wearing men's clothes, taking long masculine strikes, you know,

964
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: and like, I'm still having all these issues. It's not

965
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: making me feel more like a man to do that,

966
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: even though it's not a fake it till you make

967
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 1: it situation, Lily. You know, it's not walking on the

968
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: street thinking, boy, if I just took bigger steps, probably

969
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: feel more like a man. That's not how it works.

970
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: So yeah, obviously this was terrible advice that it did

971
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: nothing to help, and inner was like, you know what,

972
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm not going to see another doctor ever again. All

973
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: they do is humiliate me. They can't help me. No

974
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 1: one understands what's going on with me. So he's kind

975
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 1: of like I'm doomed, and so is Lily. Neither of

976
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: us are going to live. You know, he had decided

977
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: he until May first, you know, so he's like, that's

978
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: when we're dying. And so basically he was like, my

979
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: main thing now is to just pretend to be fine.

980
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: I need to I need to pretend to be happier,

981
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: and like, I don't have this plan to commit aside

982
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: because if Gerda found out, she'd be really upset, and

983
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to upset Gerda. Um And so he's

984
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: he writes about feeling more and more like a usurper

985
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: in his own body, like even that he felt when

986
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: he was inn are that he that he should be Lily?

987
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: You know, He's like, it's Lily's turn, was kind of

988
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: his feeling. I've had the body for this long as

989
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: a man, and now Lily wants it and it's her turn,

990
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: and I feel like a mean to be taking up

991
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: this space. Um. And he also said he found a

992
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: lot of refuge in music because he wasn't forced to

993
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: try to put his thoughts and feelings into words, which

994
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,439
Speaker 1: I really wanted to include because I think it really

995
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: shows a lot about how much he struggled to tell

996
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: people how he was feeling, what was really happening. Within him.

997
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: It was really really hard to tell people to describe

998
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: and and it was a further torment. It's interesting. This

999
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: is another thing about why language evalue and is so important,

1000
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: because our language was built in a very binary, structured system,

1001
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: and it is limited in terms of how we describe things.

1002
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: They're literally just aren't words. Sometimes that's why we have

1003
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: to come up with new ones or redefine words and

1004
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: make them matter in certain ways. And people are always

1005
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: so resistant to that. They're like, oh, this language is

1006
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's so often the the closed minded jokes

1007
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: are the same dumb jokes over and over again. I

1008
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: identify as a cryon. I saw somebody on Twitter the

1009
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: other day and I was like, no, you're That's not

1010
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: what anyone is saying. You're just so it's very frustrating.

1011
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: Um you don't well yeah, I mean obviously no you don't.

1012
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: But uh, but yeah, you can really under kind of

1013
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: appreciate how limiting our language is when trying to express

1014
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: these these concepts that are that are not new themselves,

1015
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 1: but are you know, new in terms of being openly

1016
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: talked about. But then one of their friends who knew

1017
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: about Lily told inn Are that she had met a

1018
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 1: German doctor and wanted to introduce them. There's always there's

1019
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: always an experimental German doctor out here Germany. Yet now

1020
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: so i Are at first refused because he was totally

1021
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: done with doctors. I've seen them all. They all give

1022
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: me bullshit. It's terrible. I feel worse after I leave.

1023
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: But she did convince him, and it was March of

1024
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, so in Our figured he only had a

1025
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: couple of months left to live. Anyway, no matter what happened,

1026
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: in Are would die. Whether or not Lily lived was

1027
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: going to be up to this German doctor, so he

1028
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: went to see him. The doctor's name was Kurt Varner

1029
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: Kross and he was a gynecologist and the head of

1030
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: the women's hospital in Berlin. Kurt examined iin Are and

1031
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: told him that he thought i Are had underdeveloped female

1032
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: organs that were contributing to his identity problem. Kurt told

1033
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: him that if he wanted, iar Coult first go to

1034
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: the Magnus Hirshfield's Institute for Sexual Research to have his

1035
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: testicles removed, and then he could be admitted to the

1036
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 1: Women's hospital in Berlin to be given experimental gender reassignment surgery.

1037
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: And now we're going to take a quick lin with history.

1038
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: Is there a doctor in the house. So, Magnus Hirshfield

1039
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: was a scientist who advocated for tolerance and acceptance of

1040
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: LGBTQ people. His Institute for Sexual Research saw around twenty

1041
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:36,439
Speaker 1: people during its lifetime of operations and advocated for contraception,

1042
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: treatment of STDs, women's emancipation, and sex education. Uh. They

1043
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: did experiment with curing homosexuality by transplanting the testicles of

1044
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: a heterosexual man onto a homosexual man. No, No, not

1045
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: so laughable to me now, I guess I can see

1046
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: the logic, but it's very happable front. I don't know

1047
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: about logic. I can see the like sort of fantasy idea.

1048
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: I guess that's what I mean, you know, just the

1049
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: progression of the idea, I guess. But obviously it did

1050
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: not work. And fortunately this was the type of place

1051
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: that did not say, well, we're just gonna keep trying.

1052
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: They just abandoned the idea of curing homosexuality, and instead

1053
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: they just kind of focused on, Okay, you are homosexual,

1054
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: and you live in a homophobic world. How can we

1055
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: make your life as comfortable as possible. How do you

1056
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: walk around and deal with this place? Yeah, seriously, and

1057
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: I mean really leading, really cutting edge, I guess you

1058
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: could say, in this in this field. And they even

1059
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: saw poor patients for free. If there's like a poor

1060
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: person who is like dealing with these identity problems or

1061
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: sexuality problem, they could come for free. They assembled a

1062
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: library of same sex art, literature and erotica, which of

1063
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: course did not exist in anywhere else, so that was

1064
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: really cool. And they were leading the research on transgender issues.

1065
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: They were kind of collecting a lot of data from many,

1066
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: many patients about trans sexuality, hermaphroditism, inter sexuality, all that

1067
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And it was here that the very

1068
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: first complete male to female gender reassignment or gender affirmation

1069
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: or confirmation is I think more preferred so gender confirmation

1070
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: surgery was done on a woman named Dora Richter in

1071
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: nine Many people think that Lily was the first person

1072
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: to get a gender confirmation surgery, but really it was

1073
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: Dora um And Dora was only six years old when

1074
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: she first tried to remove her penis with a knife.

1075
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: So Magnus and his fellow doctors and scientists really knew

1076
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: the lengths that some of their patients were willing to

1077
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 1: go in order to change their body to match what

1078
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: they felt inside. It is and it's so cool that

1079
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: they were like, you know what, if you willing to

1080
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: do that, why should I sit here and tell you

1081
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: you don't feel that way? And you just need to

1082
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: fucking figure it out like I should be doing. I'm

1083
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: a scientist. I should be figuring out a way to

1084
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: make you your life more comfortable, I mean, and and

1085
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: more able to be lived. This is this is incredible.

1086
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,919
Speaker 1: This place is amazing. Why have I not heard of it? Well,

1087
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: that's because of the fucking Nazis. Unfortunately, in three the

1088
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: Nazi Party was coming into power in Germany and they

1089
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: completely destroyed the entire institute, its library, all of its records,

1090
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: all of its data, everything they had learned was gone.

1091
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: And it is believed that Dora was killed in their

1092
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: attacks on this hospital because she lived at at the hospital.

1093
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: It's just it's infuriating. I mean, you you know, when

1094
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: you think the worst people in the world ever, you

1095
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 1: think the Nazis, and then you continue to learn the

1096
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: horrible things that they did, seriously like that, the just

1097
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: it's oh outrageous. The setback. I mean, can you imagine

1098
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 1: if this place had just been able to continue doing

1099
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: its research, how much further along we might be in

1100
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: this science today and acceptance and it just because they

1101
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: couldn't handle it, they destroyed it. And I'm infuriated by

1102
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: by this and and that I didn't know it until

1103
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: we found this, that this place existed, this amazing place

1104
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: was really doing something. It almost even undoes some of

1105
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: the stuff I've been saying, because in a lot of ways,

1106
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: they did have the science and the language back then,

1107
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: and it was just put on reset, just shut down.

1108
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: I mean obviously not in the same way that we

1109
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: do today, but um, we think of this time as

1110
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: being completely intolerant, and you know, well it was. It

1111
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: was almost a hundred years ago. Therefore, it must have

1112
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: been totally impossible to live as a transperson there, as

1113
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: a gay person, when in fact there was a whole

1114
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: in stitute set up to study this and people who

1115
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: cared and we're like, no, I want you to live

1116
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 1: a normal life. I want you to be accepted. There

1117
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: was a ton of intelligent scientists and and people, I

1118
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: mean people they knew who were totally okay with this,

1119
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: and then some big fucking thing happened and shut that

1120
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: all down, and we're still recovering from it. We are

1121
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: not this is not what we're living in now is

1122
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 1: not normal. This was designed a long time ago, and

1123
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:36,439
Speaker 1: it's really I mean, it's frustrating to me. I can't

1124
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: imagine how frustrating it is to someone who has to

1125
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: live that experience. And and like, just you know, again,

1126
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: Nazis didn't like anybody, you know what I mean, if

1127
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 1: you were at all out of you know, the very

1128
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: very rigid norm that they put together for themselves, you

1129
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: were a fair game. And so it's really telling to

1130
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: me that in the third in thirty three, the first

1131
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: people they went for we're gay people were transgender people

1132
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: and you know, anyone that people kind of would go, yeah,

1133
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: I guess they are pretty gross. It's okay that you're

1134
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: doing that. I'm not going to protest. You know, you

1135
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: start with people that people are okay with you starting

1136
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: with you know what I'm saying. You can't let them start.

1137
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: You can't let them start exactly exactly because eventually they

1138
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: get to you. Yep, but it's not yet in our story.

1139
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: It is still nineteen thirty and Dora had had a

1140
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,479
Speaker 1: partial Dora Richter had had her partial surgery. At this point,

1141
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: she was living as a woman, and Kurt told inn

1142
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: Are about Dora and was like, so, do you want

1143
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 1: to also go to this institute? Get go ahead and

1144
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: get your testicles removed. Then you can come to me

1145
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 1: and we can do this whole reassignment confirmation surgery that

1146
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: I've worked on. And again, this is the first time

1147
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: that anyone's actually said anything useful to Reinar about his situation.

1148
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: No one has really offered any kind of real solution

1149
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 1: or even real understanding about what's going on. So this

1150
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 1: is like a revelation of a meeting for him. Like

1151
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: he's like, holy sh it, this guy actually knows what

1152
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. First of all, he's not dismissing it

1153
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: completely out of hand and saying I'm just sick in

1154
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: the head or gay. And on top of that, he

1155
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: has a solution for me, So yeah, let's do this' boy.

1156
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: It's and Germany is just the best place for me

1157
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: to go for my unique lived experience to be tolerated

1158
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 1: and accepted and loved. Germany is the place to go.

1159
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, he's He's like, you know what, I'm gonna

1160
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: put my faith in this doctor's hands, and I'm gonna

1161
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 1: hope that he can save Lily's life. Amazing. Well, there's

1162
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: clearly so much to talk about here as we have been, Um,

1163
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: I think we have to take a break and come

1164
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 1: back for part two of this episode to hear what

1165
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: happens with Lily and how she continues on in her

1166
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: life after after meeting this doctor. Yeah, boy, this is

1167
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: a this is a I opening episode. Obviously. Of course,

1168
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: this story was turned into the movie The Danish Girl. UM.

1169
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 1: Starting at a Redmaine. Tom Hooper directed it, Alicia vikandor

1170
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: all that. We haven't seen it, um, and I know

1171
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of controversy in terms of the presentation,

1172
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: um and the discussion within that movie, and we're not

1173
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: going to get into that because we haven't seen it.

1174
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: And and you know, true, I will say, I guess um,

1175
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 1: The Danish Girl is based on a book that a

1176
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: guy wrote about Lily. It's not based on Lily's own memoir. So, um,

1177
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 1: if you're interested in reading Man into Woman, which is

1178
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: her memoir, it's very hard to find a print copy

1179
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: of but it is free available online to read. That's

1180
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 1: how I read it um and I totally recommend it

1181
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: because it's very just incredibly fascinating to hear how she

1182
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 1: tries to put words to what's going on with her

1183
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: and and her kind of transition is the best word,

1184
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,560
Speaker 1: but just her transition from mine r too, Lily is

1185
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 1: is really clear in this book as well. Yeah, and

1186
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: I mean it's important again we're where where sis people

1187
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: um in a heteronorgamentive relationship, but it's still I think

1188
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 1: it's important for all of us to to learn these

1189
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: stories and to read about it, and not just for normalization,

1190
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: which of course is very important, but just I've there's

1191
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: things in here I'm learning, you know, about about identity,

1192
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 1: about myself, about the world, about history. I mean, this

1193
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: is this is totally changing my perception of history, uh,

1194
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and a lot of our

1195
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 1: stories have done that, this this one no differently, So

1196
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 1: I think it's still a really important conversation for all

1197
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 1: kinds of people to be having. Of course, as we're

1198
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 1: learning this, we're interested in learning from telling this story too,

1199
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 1: So if anyone has any feedback or anything they want

1200
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: to address, of course we want to hear from you

1201
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,880
Speaker 1: in that regard. Uh, you know, not just how we

1202
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 1: approached it, but how you felt about it, how you

1203
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,639
Speaker 1: feel about the story of of Lillian Gerda in general,

1204
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 1: and um, so please reach out to us. Of course.

1205
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,599
Speaker 1: Our email address is Romance at I heart media dot com.

1206
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 1: We're on social media on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at

1207
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: Dynamite Boom, and I'm at Oh Great. It's Eli and

1208
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: the show is at ridic Romance, So please reach out.

1209
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you, and and don't miss

1210
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: part two of this episode where we get to kind

1211
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: of wrap everything up coming up this Friday. All right,

1212
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:52,839
Speaker 1: bye bye, so long friends, it's time to go. Thanks.

1213
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: So listening to our show, tell your friend's name was

1214
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: uncles inde to listen to our show Ridiculous. Well now, yes,