1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:17,340 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is 3 00:00:17,420 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: Killer Thriller. For 17 years, a mysterious bomber sent deadly 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,180 Speaker 1: packages across America, killing three people and injuring 23 others. 5 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:31,180 Speaker 1: The FBI couldn't identify him, and the man responsible was 6 00:00:31,220 --> 00:00:34,739 Speaker 1: a former Harvard math prodigy living alone in a tiny 7 00:00:34,830 --> 00:00:41,290 Speaker 1: Montana cabin. Netflix's Unabomber explores the disturbing story of Ted Kaczynski, 8 00:00:41,690 --> 00:00:45,010 Speaker 1: from his teenage years at Harvard to the nationwide manhunt 9 00:00:45,110 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: that finally brought him down. Joining me today is actor 10 00:00:49,060 --> 00:00:52,659 Speaker 1: David Webster, who plays one of Ted's Harvard classmates in 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,420 Speaker 1: the film. Hi, David. Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thanks so 12 00:00:56,460 --> 00:00:57,700 Speaker 1: much for talking with me today. 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,950 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's 14 00:00:59,970 --> 00:01:00,550 Speaker 2: my pleasure. 15 00:01:01,530 --> 00:01:04,910 Speaker 1: I really loved this movie, and I really loved it because... 16 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:10,140 Speaker 1: you know, it humanizes essentially a monster and not that 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: we are supporting this man's actions, but I do think 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,780 Speaker 1: it's important that we understand where people come from and 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,510 Speaker 1: how they get to do the things they do. So 20 00:01:20,110 --> 00:01:20,990 Speaker 1: I really loved the movie. 21 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:24,910 Speaker 2: Well, that's great. That's great. I totally agree. I think that, 22 00:01:25,610 --> 00:01:29,630 Speaker 2: you know, humanizing someone doesn't necessarily endorse their actions, but 23 00:01:29,650 --> 00:01:32,330 Speaker 2: it does recognize that it comes from a place and 24 00:01:32,350 --> 00:01:33,950 Speaker 2: a real place. And I think that if we're to 25 00:01:34,010 --> 00:01:37,089 Speaker 2: address that, Things like this in the future, coming at 26 00:01:37,110 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: it from a place of empathy is probably the most 27 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:40,660 Speaker 2: effective way. So I agree fully. 28 00:01:42,180 --> 00:01:45,900 Speaker 1: We're on the same page. Okay, so for anyone who 29 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,220 Speaker 1: hasn't seen Unabomber, tell us about Roy and your character 30 00:01:50,450 --> 00:01:53,150 Speaker 1: and where he fits into Ted Kaczynski's story. 31 00:01:53,810 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: So basically, Roy plays Ted's opposite, sort of. He sort 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: of acts as, Ted is very standoffish and has a 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,580 Speaker 2: lot of trouble connecting with people and just struggles socially 34 00:02:05,740 --> 00:02:09,110 Speaker 2: as a whole. Whereas Roy, it's very, very easy for him, 35 00:02:09,290 --> 00:02:11,929 Speaker 2: including the fact that he manages to make as much 36 00:02:11,990 --> 00:02:15,870 Speaker 2: progress with Ted as he does. So he sort of 37 00:02:16,070 --> 00:02:20,850 Speaker 2: acts as like, a mirror showing Ted what he maybe 38 00:02:20,950 --> 00:02:22,890 Speaker 2: should be or what he would like to be in 39 00:02:22,950 --> 00:02:26,389 Speaker 2: terms of his relationship with everybody else. And it gives 40 00:02:26,410 --> 00:02:28,269 Speaker 2: you a baseline. It gives you a baseline of what 41 00:02:28,310 --> 00:02:32,290 Speaker 2: somebody his age maybe should be like at the time. Right. 42 00:02:32,410 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: So he, the character is a fictional Harvard classmate, but 43 00:02:36,750 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: Ted really did arrive at Harvard at just 16 years old, 44 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:44,730 Speaker 1: which is, Really can't be understated what a big deal 45 00:02:44,770 --> 00:02:48,750 Speaker 1: that is. But what struck you most about imagining this 46 00:02:48,889 --> 00:02:52,290 Speaker 1: incredibly gifted teenager trying to fit into that world? 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,660 Speaker 2: I think that being that age is hard for anybody. 48 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,859 Speaker 2: It's never an easy time. So especially for somebody going 49 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,580 Speaker 2: to Harvard, one of the most prestigious schools in the world, 50 00:03:05,780 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 2: there's a lot of pressure there. And I think also 51 00:03:08,780 --> 00:03:11,810 Speaker 2: to be someone who would be that brilliant in tends 52 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,690 Speaker 2: to come with a little bit of baggage as well, 53 00:03:14,889 --> 00:03:18,710 Speaker 2: which has probably led to a lot of his struggles 54 00:03:18,770 --> 00:03:19,329 Speaker 2: that he had. 55 00:03:19,530 --> 00:03:23,270 Speaker 1: So this character gives us a glimpse of Ted's life 56 00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:28,390 Speaker 1: among other young people before he became this notorious killer. 57 00:03:28,770 --> 00:03:31,370 Speaker 1: Did the film itself change how you thought about him 58 00:03:31,570 --> 00:03:32,089 Speaker 1: at that age? 59 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:36,230 Speaker 2: Not too much, just because I already... Yes, of course, 60 00:03:36,290 --> 00:03:40,940 Speaker 2: but also I knew... a fair bit about Ted going 61 00:03:40,980 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 2: into the project. Um, and, uh, I really, now obviously, 62 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,339 Speaker 2: you know, Jacob's interpretation of the characters, sort of what 63 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,570 Speaker 2: I saw in the moment. Um, but it really made 64 00:03:53,610 --> 00:03:56,610 Speaker 2: me feel for him a lot and, and, uh, you know, 65 00:03:56,630 --> 00:03:59,310 Speaker 2: hats off to Jacob. Um, absolutely. Yeah. 66 00:03:59,350 --> 00:04:01,010 Speaker 1: He's really terrific in this movie. 67 00:04:01,410 --> 00:04:05,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. He's really good. Um, so, uh, I would say that, 68 00:04:06,410 --> 00:04:07,950 Speaker 2: sort of what I learned was a bit of a 69 00:04:08,450 --> 00:04:13,730 Speaker 2: non-tangible from Ted, which kind of came from Jacob's performance. Now, 70 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:15,910 Speaker 2: of course, it's a performance, so it's hard to say 71 00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:21,510 Speaker 2: if that's an expression of the real person accurately, but 72 00:04:21,650 --> 00:04:24,150 Speaker 2: it was very, very effective for the film, and I 73 00:04:24,190 --> 00:04:25,690 Speaker 2: really loved Jacob's performance. 74 00:04:26,410 --> 00:04:29,050 Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about that a lot on this podcast, 75 00:04:29,250 --> 00:04:35,820 Speaker 1: that sometimes narrative stories about real things can help, people 76 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: actually metabolize and empathize in a way that we may 77 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:47,380 Speaker 1: not be able to just from documentaries or journalism. And 78 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,620 Speaker 1: I think that's an important piece, talking about how we 79 00:04:50,660 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: can understand, again, how people get to these places. And 80 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: then the same, his performance made me really think in 81 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:04,930 Speaker 1: a deeper way about that. that feeling. I also have 82 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:07,740 Speaker 1: a 14-year-old daughter, which is not far from 16. And 83 00:05:07,770 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: the thought of, good Lord, about, to your point, how 84 00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: hard that age is. Those years are really difficult for anyone. 85 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,900 Speaker 1: So it's important. 86 00:05:18,940 --> 00:05:19,340 Speaker 2: I agree. 87 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,370 Speaker 1: So we know that Ted was academically brilliant, but he 88 00:05:24,410 --> 00:05:26,870 Speaker 1: was also described as a loner. Did you come away 89 00:05:26,970 --> 00:05:30,609 Speaker 1: feeling that his intelligence made it harder for him to 90 00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:31,270 Speaker 1: connect with people? 91 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:38,490 Speaker 2: I think for any really genius person, it definitely makes 92 00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:41,390 Speaker 2: it more difficult because it's a little bit harder to 93 00:05:41,450 --> 00:05:44,470 Speaker 2: sort of relate to others and the things that they 94 00:05:44,529 --> 00:05:48,030 Speaker 2: are thinking about or feeling and whatnot. But I don't 95 00:05:48,089 --> 00:05:50,070 Speaker 2: think that it would be the sole reason because I 96 00:05:50,110 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: think there are plenty of very smart, genius people who 97 00:05:54,860 --> 00:05:56,950 Speaker 2: don't have the same struggles, at least to the degree 98 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:03,549 Speaker 2: that Ted does. Ted also has some sort of social 99 00:06:03,670 --> 00:06:09,220 Speaker 2: issue that is maybe adjacent to but not caused by 100 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: his genius. So I think it's a combination of his 101 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: intelligence and his personality. 102 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:23,430 Speaker 1: Right, right. So the movie explores the controversial psychological experiments 103 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:26,969 Speaker 1: that Ted participated in at Harvard. Did you know anything 104 00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:29,570 Speaker 1: about those experiments before joining the film? 105 00:06:30,140 --> 00:06:32,700 Speaker 2: Um, I did, I did. And that was the main 106 00:06:32,740 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: reason why when I got the script, I was like, 107 00:06:34,779 --> 00:06:37,460 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay. Wait, they're making a movie about this. 108 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: They're making a movie about this. Oh geez. And I'm 109 00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:41,500 Speaker 2: going to be in it. Well, actually I didn't know 110 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:42,450 Speaker 2: I was going to be in it yet, but I 111 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:44,729 Speaker 2: might be in it. I was like, this is a great, 112 00:06:44,870 --> 00:06:46,830 Speaker 2: this is a great day. It was a great day 113 00:06:46,850 --> 00:06:50,409 Speaker 2: to be me. So I was, uh, I was very 114 00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:52,030 Speaker 2: excited when I saw that they were going to be 115 00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:54,390 Speaker 2: talking about that because it's not a thing that a 116 00:06:54,430 --> 00:06:55,170 Speaker 2: lot of people know. 117 00:06:55,490 --> 00:06:59,250 Speaker 1: I didn't know this. Before this film, I didn't know 118 00:06:59,270 --> 00:07:00,170 Speaker 1: that that even happened. 119 00:07:00,630 --> 00:07:06,510 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's really crazy. I feel like that should be 120 00:07:06,529 --> 00:07:09,270 Speaker 2: a big part of the story. And there were some 121 00:07:09,330 --> 00:07:14,530 Speaker 2: other really noteworthy historical figures that were part of the 122 00:07:14,550 --> 00:07:19,590 Speaker 2: same experiments. Charles Manson was part of the same experiments. What? 123 00:07:20,090 --> 00:07:20,830 Speaker 1: Are you serious? 124 00:07:21,190 --> 00:07:21,930 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm dead serious. 125 00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:22,910 Speaker 1: I did not know this. 126 00:07:22,930 --> 00:07:24,310 Speaker 2: Fact check me. 127 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:25,500 Speaker 1: I mean, oh my gosh. 128 00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:26,310 Speaker 2: Yeah. 129 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,610 Speaker 1: That is pretty, I mean, that's an extraordinary piece of 130 00:07:31,870 --> 00:07:39,030 Speaker 1: knowledge because those people clearly notorious and did horrific, horrific 131 00:07:39,310 --> 00:07:46,550 Speaker 1: things that were all about wanting to be acknowledged, wanting 132 00:07:46,590 --> 00:07:50,300 Speaker 1: to have love, wanting to communicate. It's sort of the 133 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: base part of it and being disregarded in some way. Wait, 134 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: this freaks me out. I didn't know that. 135 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,910 Speaker 2: There you go. We're learning things on the Killer Thrill podcast. 136 00:08:02,970 --> 00:08:03,470 Speaker 2: There we go. 137 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:06,490 Speaker 1: That's right. So there is, well, this was going to 138 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: be my next question, and maybe you just answered it, 139 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:11,370 Speaker 1: that there's been a lot of speculation about whether those 140 00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: experiments contributed to what Ted eventually became. But they've never 141 00:08:17,380 --> 00:08:21,340 Speaker 1: really been able to truly make that connection. 142 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:21,490 Speaker 2: So why? 143 00:08:23,090 --> 00:08:26,350 Speaker 1: What's your reaction to the idea that people are still 144 00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:30,970 Speaker 1: searching for a single explanation as to why this person 145 00:08:31,010 --> 00:08:31,390 Speaker 1: did this? 146 00:08:31,950 --> 00:08:36,429 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think, unfortunately, in life there's single explanations 147 00:08:36,470 --> 00:08:41,630 Speaker 2: for very much. I think you basically have one plus 148 00:08:41,710 --> 00:08:43,950 Speaker 2: one equals two, and that's about as simple as things get. 149 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:46,949 Speaker 2: So I don't think we can really chalk it down 150 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:49,450 Speaker 2: to one thing. thing in particular, but I do think, 151 00:08:49,490 --> 00:08:51,510 Speaker 2: you know, cause it, within these experiments, there's a lot 152 00:08:51,530 --> 00:08:53,370 Speaker 2: of drug use as well. Like there was a lot 153 00:08:53,390 --> 00:08:57,010 Speaker 2: of LSD used and whatnot. Um, and I think that, 154 00:08:57,910 --> 00:08:59,570 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know the details about what kind 155 00:08:59,590 --> 00:09:03,630 Speaker 2: of dosages or, or I don't know the details, but 156 00:09:03,650 --> 00:09:08,010 Speaker 2: I'm sure that repeated exposure to these things, especially with 157 00:09:08,050 --> 00:09:14,260 Speaker 2: like reinforced ideas and stuff can, can really make somebody 158 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 2: lose themselves. 159 00:09:15,980 --> 00:09:17,510 Speaker 1: Um, Absolutely. 160 00:09:17,530 --> 00:09:20,710 Speaker 2: And further down the line. So it's not, I don't 161 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:23,470 Speaker 2: think it's impossible that there would be a connection there. 162 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:28,690 Speaker 1: And especially at such a young age, the brain is 163 00:09:28,750 --> 00:09:32,170 Speaker 1: not fully formed. These are teenage, in his case, young 164 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: teenagers and in others, maybe a little bit older, but 165 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: it's still very much, it's so suggestive. And that period 166 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:46,030 Speaker 1: of life, you're really trying to figure out Where you 167 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: fit in and desperately trying to, it's almost like you 168 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: don't want to be different in any way. You want 169 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,050 Speaker 1: to have the safety of of, of community and fitting in. And, um, 170 00:09:57,790 --> 00:10:04,189 Speaker 1: so it's, it's the perfect setup essentially for that kind of, uh, manipulation. Um, 171 00:10:05,620 --> 00:10:08,380 Speaker 1: after working on the film, did you find yourself thinking 172 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:12,100 Speaker 1: there was a particular moment in Ted's life that could 173 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: have made things go a different direction? 174 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: Um, after seeing the film, um, I think that if 175 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:24,809 Speaker 2: his time at Harvard had gone differently, that could have. 176 00:10:25,090 --> 00:10:26,790 Speaker 2: At least, like, you know, the film is kind of 177 00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:32,770 Speaker 2: indicating that he was somewhat disillusioned through him trusting the 178 00:10:32,809 --> 00:10:35,470 Speaker 2: faculty and stuff and then sort of being betrayed by them. 179 00:10:36,090 --> 00:10:40,780 Speaker 2: He lost a certain sense of safety within other people. 180 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 2: Not to say he had that much to begin with. 181 00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:46,459 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's hard to say. I don't think 182 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,540 Speaker 2: that we could chalk... actions like that down to a 183 00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:54,069 Speaker 2: single event, really. And it's not, at least, you know, 184 00:10:54,090 --> 00:10:56,530 Speaker 2: if we're going off of what we see in the film, 185 00:10:56,590 --> 00:10:59,630 Speaker 2: it's not like he didn't have people who cared about him. 186 00:10:59,690 --> 00:11:02,170 Speaker 2: I mean, even my character, Roy, you know, he was 187 00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:05,450 Speaker 2: clearly making a lot of effort to connect with Ted and, 188 00:11:05,470 --> 00:11:08,370 Speaker 2: you know, set him up on dates and help him 189 00:11:08,690 --> 00:11:12,390 Speaker 2: feel normal. But it just didn't work. I think that 190 00:11:12,450 --> 00:11:16,890 Speaker 2: sometimes it just doesn't work for people. And sometimes they 191 00:11:16,970 --> 00:11:19,950 Speaker 2: just isolate and they do their thing. And sometimes they 192 00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:23,190 Speaker 2: send bombs to people's houses, you know, so. Right. 193 00:11:23,970 --> 00:11:26,590 Speaker 1: I mean, that's so in 1979, one of his bombs 194 00:11:26,650 --> 00:11:30,750 Speaker 1: went off aboard an American airlines flight and the plane 195 00:11:30,770 --> 00:11:35,190 Speaker 1: landed safely, but passengers suffered smoke inhalation. When, when you 196 00:11:35,230 --> 00:11:38,050 Speaker 1: learned about that attack, did it change your sense of 197 00:11:39,010 --> 00:11:41,690 Speaker 1: how many lives he was willing to endanger? 198 00:11:41,710 --> 00:11:43,949 Speaker 2: Oh, well, I mean, of course I think, I think 199 00:11:44,010 --> 00:11:49,229 Speaker 2: that he was a, um, the means justify the means 200 00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:51,250 Speaker 2: or the end justify the means. I think that that 201 00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:54,550 Speaker 2: was the way that he thought about everything. And he 202 00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:58,929 Speaker 2: probably felt that the system was just so broken that 203 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: there was simply no way to fix it without breaking 204 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: the whole thing. And, and he was probably like, well, 205 00:12:05,540 --> 00:12:08,020 Speaker 2: you just got to break some eggs to make an omelet. And, 206 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:10,179 Speaker 2: and like he, like he was very smart. So he 207 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,739 Speaker 2: would have thought about these things, but I've, I've at 208 00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:15,170 Speaker 2: least what I've kind of witnessed with, with people and, 209 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,459 Speaker 2: intelligent people as well, is that I think that they 210 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:23,949 Speaker 2: are usually just as susceptible to their own emotions as 211 00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:29,370 Speaker 2: you and me and everybody else. But their intellect kind of, A, 212 00:12:29,429 --> 00:12:33,630 Speaker 2: helps them justify the way they feel emotionally more, and B, 213 00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:38,540 Speaker 2: gives them the tools to sort of realize what they 214 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 2: want to see a little bit more effectively. But I 215 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,569 Speaker 2: would say that he might have, like, He might've just 216 00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:51,010 Speaker 2: been feeling so much like hurt and rejection and anger 217 00:12:51,070 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: that it didn't matter. And there were these reasons for it. 218 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:55,260 Speaker 2: It's hard to say. 219 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. It really, in referencing your point about his intelligence, 220 00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: being able to execute these things, like he would disguise 221 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: bombs as different things. And like in 85, he disguised 222 00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:10,300 Speaker 1: a bomb as a three ring binder. And that's the 223 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,700 Speaker 1: one that injured the university of Michigan professor. and his assistant, 224 00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: what's especially chilling to you about the way that he 225 00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: turned these everyday objects into deadly traps? 226 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: I think what's especially chilling is the fact that anybody 227 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: could have picked that thing up because it's so nonspecific, right? 228 00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:38,100 Speaker 2: It's a three-ring binder. If at any place, any workplace, 229 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: any school even, everyone has three-ring binders. You could mistake 230 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:46,949 Speaker 2: it for something. He was basically just like, what's the 231 00:13:46,990 --> 00:13:49,290 Speaker 2: most effective way to get this explosive where I want 232 00:13:49,309 --> 00:13:51,370 Speaker 2: it to go without it getting found? And it doesn't 233 00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:57,870 Speaker 2: really matter what alternative scenarios could come from that. Yeah. 234 00:13:58,809 --> 00:14:02,710 Speaker 2: So again, I think that he just, it was just 235 00:14:02,750 --> 00:14:05,890 Speaker 2: the unsjustified means to him. Right. Right. 236 00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:09,450 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the last bomb killed Gilbert Murray, 237 00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:12,430 Speaker 1: the president of the California Forestry Association, and it wasn't 238 00:14:12,450 --> 00:14:32,430 Speaker 1: even intended. for him which is awful so the fbi 239 00:14:32,490 --> 00:14:36,950 Speaker 1: says that ted selected victims through library research and often 240 00:14:37,070 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: choosing people that he didn't personally know did you find 241 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,910 Speaker 1: that more frightening than the idea of someone committing violence 242 00:14:43,970 --> 00:14:46,810 Speaker 1: against a person that they hate, for example? 243 00:14:47,530 --> 00:14:49,970 Speaker 2: Um, I think, well, I mean, as, as I think 244 00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:53,610 Speaker 2: most of us know, um, usually most like violent crimes 245 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:56,070 Speaker 2: and things happen to people who know each other. Um, 246 00:14:56,130 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: it's pretty unusual for there to be, uh, these sort 247 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: of things towards strangers. And I think that that kind 248 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,020 Speaker 2: of comes, that really stems from his very ideological place. Um, 249 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,390 Speaker 2: and how, uh, he basically was trying to, I think 250 00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:15,340 Speaker 2: what it might've been is he, there was a sense 251 00:15:15,380 --> 00:15:19,940 Speaker 2: of hopelessness with him to trying to face the system and, 252 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: and the establishment that we all kind of operate under. 253 00:15:25,690 --> 00:15:28,670 Speaker 2: And so you can't really break the whole thing. So 254 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:31,970 Speaker 2: he was just like, I'm just going to take shots 255 00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:34,490 Speaker 2: out on people that it kind of makes sense. Like 256 00:15:34,530 --> 00:15:38,310 Speaker 2: it felt honestly like the, It feels to me like 257 00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:43,150 Speaker 2: it's a little bit more emotional than it is logical. Because, 258 00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:47,390 Speaker 2: you know, the system doesn't, even if he hit every 259 00:15:47,450 --> 00:15:51,730 Speaker 2: one of his intended targets, the system wouldn't collapse under that. 260 00:15:51,830 --> 00:15:55,210 Speaker 2: It's like lashing out almost. It's like a really, really 261 00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:57,510 Speaker 2: smart person lashing out. Yeah. 262 00:15:57,890 --> 00:16:01,490 Speaker 1: That's the heartbreaking part of it. Again, I'm not justifying 263 00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:03,460 Speaker 1: this man's actions, but I do. 264 00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 265 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,140 Speaker 1: I do really see the human being under there. So 266 00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: when you think about people just simply going to work, 267 00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: opening their mail, or answering a package delivery, I mean, 268 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,250 Speaker 1: what part feels the most disturbing to you? Because to me, 269 00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:23,770 Speaker 1: I feel like, I remember when this happened. I was young, 270 00:16:23,830 --> 00:16:27,510 Speaker 1: but I do remember it. And the sort of terror 271 00:16:27,550 --> 00:16:34,020 Speaker 1: that everyone had about opening their mail. And I felt like, oh, 272 00:16:36,060 --> 00:16:38,870 Speaker 1: a package comes in the mail, it's usually something exciting, 273 00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:43,930 Speaker 1: you know? And so what part of it seems the 274 00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:46,030 Speaker 1: sort of scariest to you? 275 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:50,060 Speaker 2: Well, I guess, you know, like you said, something that 276 00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: used to be joyful and an exciting event has now 277 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,660 Speaker 2: turned into an event with of, of fear. Um, and 278 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,710 Speaker 2: I think for, especially at the time, um, in, uh, are, 279 00:17:00,750 --> 00:17:02,350 Speaker 2: are you in, uh, in the U S or Canada? 280 00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:03,050 Speaker 2: Whereabouts are you? 281 00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:05,890 Speaker 1: I'm in San Francisco. So I'm in San Francisco where 282 00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:07,210 Speaker 1: he mailed a lot of his things from. 283 00:17:07,369 --> 00:17:10,310 Speaker 2: He mailed a lot of his things from, yeah. Um, well, uh, 284 00:17:10,670 --> 00:17:13,570 Speaker 2: I think that the, the sort of experience of, of, 285 00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:16,929 Speaker 2: of American life and whatnot of the time, it was 286 00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:20,150 Speaker 2: just so, because, because it was, it's, if you lived 287 00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: in the U S or Canada or whatever, from like, 1950s, 288 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,659 Speaker 2: 60s onwards, like it, like it until about, um, I 289 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,980 Speaker 2: guess 2000, uh, it was, it was one of the 290 00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:37,100 Speaker 2: most peaceful and a very, uh, like, uh, unusual blip 291 00:17:37,340 --> 00:17:41,300 Speaker 2: in human history. Like there really aren't very many times 292 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: that are that peaceful and that kind of prosperous. Um, 293 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,859 Speaker 2: so it's sort of, um, you know, you could, you, 294 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:49,540 Speaker 2: I think you could liken it to, to, to nine 295 00:17:49,540 --> 00:17:52,260 Speaker 2: 11 somewhat in the sense that it was just such a, um, 296 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: destruction of the framework of everyone's perception of their lives 297 00:17:58,220 --> 00:18:02,590 Speaker 2: and what reality was to them. Now, obviously, I don't 298 00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:05,149 Speaker 2: think that it was on this. I wasn't alive when 299 00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:06,889 Speaker 2: this was happening, so I don't think it was on 300 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:09,750 Speaker 2: the cultural scale that 9-11 was, but I think that 301 00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: you could create some parallels to it. You know, something 302 00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 2: as sort of safe and sacred to the American lifestyle 303 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: as a receiving male could be something that could Definitely. 304 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: And it did disrupt that. And because he was one person, 305 00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:28,689 Speaker 1: then once he was found, it felt as though, oh, 306 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:33,650 Speaker 1: we're back to safety. You know, the one bad guy is, 307 00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:40,690 Speaker 1: you know, which obviously 9-11 is not that simple. So 308 00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:44,410 Speaker 1: the FBI spent years searching for the Unabomber without knowing 309 00:18:44,450 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: his identity, which is almost unimaginable today. But what I mean, 310 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,660 Speaker 1: that stuns me. But what surprises you most about how 311 00:18:52,780 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: long he managed to remain anonymous? 312 00:18:56,300 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think, as we know, he was a genius. 313 00:19:02,020 --> 00:19:07,850 Speaker 2: He was very, very intelligent. And although his, I think 314 00:19:07,930 --> 00:19:10,150 Speaker 2: that the nature of what he did was quite emotional. 315 00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:13,649 Speaker 2: I think that the methods in which he conducted it 316 00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:18,050 Speaker 2: were very, very well thought out and, and in like 317 00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:20,689 Speaker 2: there was, there was a lot of logic behind what 318 00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:23,410 Speaker 2: he was doing in the sense of like trying not 319 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: to get caught. 320 00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: And like testing bombs in his cabin, like he did 321 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:29,900 Speaker 1: all sorts of, you know, precursor. 322 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,740 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think that that's a big reason why 323 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 2: it took so long is because they were dealing with 324 00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: not just, you know, your average Joe, they were dealing 325 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: with someone who went to Harvard at 16 years old. 326 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,530 Speaker 2: They were dealing with someone who was very, very, very clever. Um, and, uh, 327 00:19:44,530 --> 00:19:48,860 Speaker 2: it's difficult now ultimately they did they did catch him Um, 328 00:19:49,100 --> 00:19:52,260 Speaker 2: because you just, you can't run forever if you have 329 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:55,580 Speaker 2: that many people trying to find you. Um, and ultimately, 330 00:19:55,619 --> 00:19:57,540 Speaker 2: you know, it was his family, the people that he 331 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,179 Speaker 2: loved that kind of led to that happening. And it 332 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,179 Speaker 2: was like, you can't really, can't really account for people 333 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 2: just knowing you and knowing about you and, and, having 334 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:09,709 Speaker 2: a sense, you know, seeing as their, his writing and 335 00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:11,690 Speaker 2: being able to be like, that really reminds me of 336 00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:12,310 Speaker 2: Ted's works. 337 00:20:12,690 --> 00:20:16,790 Speaker 1: That it's his actual words that essentially were his demise. 338 00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:19,450 Speaker 1: I mean, that's how he got caught. So it's almost 339 00:20:19,470 --> 00:20:23,220 Speaker 1: like his intelligence is what the very thing that he 340 00:20:23,380 --> 00:20:26,620 Speaker 1: used to achieve these things is the thing that ultimately 341 00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:27,619 Speaker 1: caught him. 342 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,140 Speaker 2: Ain't that the truth. 343 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:30,340 Speaker 1: Ain't that the truth. 344 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:31,020 Speaker 2: Yeah. 345 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,010 Speaker 1: That's so many things. Um, So there is this image, 346 00:20:36,050 --> 00:20:39,369 Speaker 1: Ted was spotted leaving a bomb outside a Utah computer 347 00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:42,530 Speaker 1: store in 87. And that's what led to this famous 348 00:20:42,590 --> 00:20:45,310 Speaker 1: sketch of a man in a hooded sweatshirt and sunglasses 349 00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:48,750 Speaker 1: before making the movie. Was that the image that you 350 00:20:48,790 --> 00:20:50,670 Speaker 1: associated with the Unabomber? 351 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:54,389 Speaker 2: Um, the image that I always associated, like if the 352 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: image that literally flashes in my head, whenever I think 353 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 2: of him is, is the image of his cabin and, uh, the, 354 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,830 Speaker 2: the picture of him kind of like standing, um, I 355 00:21:03,850 --> 00:21:09,250 Speaker 2: think I'm not like Mandela affecting him standing outside of 356 00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:11,290 Speaker 2: it in one of those pictures. That's usually what I 357 00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:14,500 Speaker 2: think of. I think of him as being, I guess 358 00:21:14,660 --> 00:21:16,820 Speaker 2: if I was alive at the time, I probably would 359 00:21:16,859 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: think of the sketch because that was on every news station. 360 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:24,590 Speaker 2: That was the image. But for me, growing up and 361 00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:27,690 Speaker 2: after the fact, when we knew what he looked like 362 00:21:27,730 --> 00:21:30,649 Speaker 2: and whatnot, and I think the more characteristic image of 363 00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:32,889 Speaker 2: him is that picture of him standing outside of his cabin. 364 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,179 Speaker 1: Right, right. 365 00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: So that seems to, like on the internet and stuff, 366 00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:39,790 Speaker 2: when people talk about him, that's usually... When they captured him, right? Yeah, 367 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:41,330 Speaker 2: that's usually the image they use. 368 00:21:41,670 --> 00:21:44,930 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. I never thought about this because I... 369 00:21:44,750 --> 00:21:48,190 Speaker 1: I was so young when this happened, and I remember 370 00:21:48,250 --> 00:21:53,379 Speaker 1: that magazine cover and having zero understanding of what it was, 371 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: but I knew that picture and that man, and it 372 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,740 Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is somebody who did something terrible, 373 00:21:59,780 --> 00:22:00,770 Speaker 1: but I didn't really get it. 374 00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:01,660 Speaker 2: And then once. 375 00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: he actually, you know, once they actually caught him and 376 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,700 Speaker 1: that image, I never even connected the two of them. 377 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,460 Speaker 1: You know, I never thought like, oh, this is, this 378 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:11,980 Speaker 1: is the same person. 379 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,540 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, they look so, they look so different. Right. 380 00:22:15,580 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 2: And I mean, like, again, he was really smart. So 381 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,260 Speaker 2: he changed his appearance probably like anytime that he'd be 382 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,580 Speaker 2: in public in any situation where he could be associated 383 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: with these events. He, he, you know, he probably shaved 384 00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:30,699 Speaker 2: and he clearly was, he was wearing a very obscuring outfit. So, yeah. 385 00:22:30,780 --> 00:22:33,649 Speaker 1: And they said that they, he even would, put something 386 00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:37,609 Speaker 1: over his shoes to make them smaller or make it 387 00:22:37,650 --> 00:22:40,540 Speaker 1: a different imprint so it looked like if he left footprints, 388 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,490 Speaker 1: it was a smaller shoe. I mean, he was definitely 389 00:22:45,690 --> 00:23:04,110 Speaker 1: taking care of the details. Yeah. So when investigators finally 390 00:23:04,290 --> 00:23:09,100 Speaker 1: entered the cabin, they discovered the bomb components and thousands 391 00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:14,180 Speaker 1: of pages of writings and a completed live bomb. What 392 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,020 Speaker 1: was your reaction to learning how much evidence had been 393 00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:18,659 Speaker 1: sitting there all along? 394 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,590 Speaker 2: I think my reaction to that would be that he 395 00:23:24,650 --> 00:23:27,250 Speaker 2: clearly didn't expect anybody to find the cabin. If the 396 00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:32,450 Speaker 2: cabin was found, that was game over. Right, right. Because, 397 00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:34,390 Speaker 2: you know, if you have lots of evidence, it has 398 00:23:34,430 --> 00:23:36,830 Speaker 2: to go somewhere, right? If you're doing these things, there 399 00:23:36,910 --> 00:23:38,930 Speaker 2: is going to be physical evidence. It has to go somewhere. 400 00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:41,409 Speaker 2: So the cabin where he lives, it's basically, well, if 401 00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:45,150 Speaker 2: they find me, they find the cabin. It's like, it'll 402 00:23:45,170 --> 00:23:48,149 Speaker 2: be over either way. But yeah, I mean, it was 403 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:51,909 Speaker 2: very definitely helpful for prosecutors that all of that was 404 00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:56,609 Speaker 2: sitting there. Yeah. Honestly, I don't think it could have 405 00:23:56,650 --> 00:23:59,790 Speaker 2: gotten any better for them. Yeah, yeah. 406 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,450 Speaker 1: It's definitely part of what makes it so fascinating, I think, 407 00:24:02,490 --> 00:24:06,850 Speaker 1: that there was this man living so remotely, so off 408 00:24:06,869 --> 00:24:10,109 Speaker 1: the grid, and no electricity, and that he was able 409 00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:15,790 Speaker 1: to pull off all of these things. It's really pretty 410 00:24:15,950 --> 00:24:20,530 Speaker 1: impressive and baffling. So this is always interesting to me 411 00:24:20,590 --> 00:24:25,340 Speaker 1: as well. So in 95, Ted demanded that his 35,000-word 412 00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: manifesto be published, and he threatened further violence if it wasn't. 413 00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:34,340 Speaker 1: What do you make of someone who's so determined to 414 00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:38,300 Speaker 1: remain anonymous but also so desperate to have his ideas heard? 415 00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: I think that that kind of comes from what I 416 00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: said earlier about how the whole thing I think was 417 00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:47,989 Speaker 2: a little bit of an outcry, like an almost tantrum-esque 418 00:24:48,170 --> 00:24:52,050 Speaker 2: and realizing even if he blows people up, even if 419 00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:57,340 Speaker 2: he goes as far as to kill people, the system 420 00:24:57,380 --> 00:25:00,490 Speaker 2: that he wants gone isn't going anywhere. And he's like, well, 421 00:25:00,510 --> 00:25:05,869 Speaker 2: at least maybe I can use this to peddle my ideas, right? 422 00:25:06,570 --> 00:25:08,489 Speaker 2: And get that out into the world. Because he was 423 00:25:08,530 --> 00:25:12,010 Speaker 2: probably thinking, I'm one man. I can only do so much. 424 00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:15,149 Speaker 2: But if everybody knows this, if everybody thinks and feels 425 00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:19,209 Speaker 2: this way, then maybe then we can make a change. 426 00:25:19,730 --> 00:25:22,350 Speaker 2: So I think that was probably his line of thinking. 427 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:26,380 Speaker 2: But yeah, I look at a lot of that whole, 428 00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:29,179 Speaker 2: and I guess this has come because I've had to 429 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,669 Speaker 2: talk about this movie a lot and whatnot, so I've 430 00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:34,270 Speaker 2: just been thinking about it in the moment. And as 431 00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:36,430 Speaker 2: time has gone on, I feel more and more like 432 00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:41,810 Speaker 2: what he was doing was... sort of a cry for 433 00:25:41,850 --> 00:25:45,310 Speaker 2: help or like an emotional outburst. Like it feels more 434 00:25:45,369 --> 00:25:47,930 Speaker 2: like that than like a calculated thing, despite his means 435 00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:51,670 Speaker 2: being calculated. And I think that that's further evidence towards that. 436 00:25:53,230 --> 00:25:55,709 Speaker 2: You just want, like you just needed to be heard 437 00:25:56,250 --> 00:25:58,629 Speaker 2: and didn't know how to make that happen. 438 00:25:59,550 --> 00:26:03,110 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think we can underestimate how important 439 00:26:03,130 --> 00:26:08,070 Speaker 1: it is as a human being walking this planet to 440 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:11,670 Speaker 1: be understood and to connect with other people. I mean, 441 00:26:11,710 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: I just think it's a, it's, it's a, it's a, 442 00:26:14,859 --> 00:26:16,940 Speaker 1: a fundamental part of being alive. 443 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think also like, um, probably a lot 444 00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: of his disillusionment, disillusionment to the world as, as a whole, 445 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,950 Speaker 2: probably stems somewhat from not really feeling comfortable in himself 446 00:26:33,030 --> 00:26:35,490 Speaker 2: and his own body. And that kind of having an 447 00:26:35,609 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 2: extending to the greater world as well. He's like, there's 448 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 2: just something wrong with the way that I feel and 449 00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:42,980 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. So it's a lot 450 00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:45,810 Speaker 2: of like trying to find reasons as to why that 451 00:26:45,850 --> 00:26:49,770 Speaker 2: might be the case. And, and, um, obviously, you know, 452 00:26:49,790 --> 00:26:52,070 Speaker 2: the world is a, is a flawed place. So he 453 00:26:52,090 --> 00:26:54,610 Speaker 2: would look at the, he might've been like, if this 454 00:26:54,650 --> 00:26:57,270 Speaker 2: can be fixed, if this can be changed, then I 455 00:26:57,310 --> 00:26:59,810 Speaker 2: will feel better. Right. Right. 456 00:26:59,830 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: And so his brother, uh, David ultimately provided the investigation 457 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: with Ted's writings, as we said, and it really helped 458 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: them establish the connection. What do you think it would 459 00:27:12,260 --> 00:27:15,580 Speaker 1: take to make that kind of decision, you know, about 460 00:27:15,619 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: your own brother? 461 00:27:16,220 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: I hope I never find out what that feels like. 462 00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:26,820 Speaker 2: Good answer. Good answer. Yeah, I think... obviously, you know, 463 00:27:26,859 --> 00:27:29,980 Speaker 2: he'd been estranged from Ted for a little bit. Um, not, 464 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 2: not as much as, as his parents likely were, but, um, 465 00:27:34,859 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 2: you know, but you still love your brother and, and, 466 00:27:36,859 --> 00:27:39,909 Speaker 2: and clearly, you know, we see in the film, um, 467 00:27:40,150 --> 00:27:43,609 Speaker 2: Ted really had a soft spot for his brother. He 468 00:27:43,650 --> 00:27:44,990 Speaker 2: seemed to be one of the few people that he 469 00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:50,330 Speaker 2: kind of really, you know, felt for, um, So yeah, 470 00:27:50,430 --> 00:27:53,170 Speaker 2: I hope I never find out. That's one of those horrible, 471 00:27:53,210 --> 00:27:56,220 Speaker 2: horrible decisions where it's like, I don't know what I 472 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,700 Speaker 2: would do. To be honest, I'd probably end up doing 473 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,980 Speaker 2: the same thing, but it wouldn't feel good. 474 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 1: I think the same. I have to think about those 475 00:28:07,270 --> 00:28:09,870 Speaker 1: things all the time in this podcast. I'm very grateful 476 00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:14,730 Speaker 1: that I don't have to yet have had to answer 477 00:28:14,770 --> 00:28:17,750 Speaker 1: any of these things. So after being part of this 478 00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: film and learning about Ted and his background and his crimes, what, 479 00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:25,899 Speaker 1: what do you hope that audiences take away from the story? 480 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,060 Speaker 2: Um, I hope people take away, uh, I hope after 481 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 2: watching the film, people will understand that behind every monster, 482 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,660 Speaker 2: there is a human being. Um, and people don't do 483 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:47,300 Speaker 2: things for no reason. Um, there's always a There's always some, 484 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,970 Speaker 2: I think, internal human reason that they feel they need 485 00:28:51,010 --> 00:28:55,010 Speaker 2: to do this in order to make themselves feel like 486 00:28:55,090 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: they belong or that they have some sort of purpose. 487 00:29:03,780 --> 00:29:06,900 Speaker 2: There's a reason, usually, that we can all relate to 488 00:29:07,780 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: that would explain why people do things like that, that 489 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,550 Speaker 2: people just express them in very different ways. I agree. Yeah. 490 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: David, this has been so lovely. You're so articulate and 491 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: wise beyond your years. You give me great hope for 492 00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:22,620 Speaker 1: the future. 493 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,620 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. Listen, I spend a lot of time 494 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:30,410 Speaker 2: on Instagram. And when I'm on there, I'm like, I 495 00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:32,450 Speaker 2: don't have great hope for the future. I know. 496 00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:33,370 Speaker 1: This is what I mean. 497 00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:37,990 Speaker 2: Yes. Well, I'm just... And this is an expression to myself. 498 00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:42,610 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm laughing at just... garbage. I'm just watching garbage. 499 00:29:42,670 --> 00:29:45,390 Speaker 2: And I'm like, ha, ha, ha, ha. But you know what? 500 00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:49,950 Speaker 2: But you know what? I'm glad I gave you some 501 00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:52,260 Speaker 2: faith that I don't know if I have. 502 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: Yes, you did. 503 00:29:55,290 --> 00:29:57,850 Speaker 2: Anyway, thank you so much. I had a great time. Oh, good. 504 00:29:57,970 --> 00:30:01,180 Speaker 1: So the movie is Unabomber. It is streaming on Netflix. 505 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,190 Speaker 1: And thank you so much, David. 506 00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:03,990 Speaker 2: Thank you.