1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a podcast 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: that reimagined citizen as a verb, not a legal status. 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen. 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: So last time, we covered some major ground with Prof. 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: G Mr Scott Galloway. Scott did a lightning round of 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: issues plaguing the tech ecosystem. Mainly, he touched on the 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: lack of regulation. The government has got to get on 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: tech and we well, we've got to get on the 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: government to do us damn job. And we also heard 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: more about my journey. We charted through my personal experiences 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: in the tech landscape, and we learned that I'm an 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: even bigger tech nerd than you already knew. I shared 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: with you my visions of what was possible for technology 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: over the years, like changing how we tell stories, how 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: we make comedy, how we organized politically. But we ain't 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: done yet because we talked about the problems right, but 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: now we have to talk about the people who see 21 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: things differently now, Scott, he argued, for a more traditional 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: path of regulation. But I think we need something new, 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: something that connects us to values that might feel disconnected 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: from the current tech landscape. Some of you might remember 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: my walks during the pandemic, a little bit of the 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: rich audio environment O pregate. Then out here in these 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: streets that was a menacing hound. Heck, I still walk 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: in my neighborhood almost every day, being outside, seeing people 29 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: live their own live lives, checking in on the shops 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: of York Boulevard. All that provides a lens to view 31 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: the world differently. It's grounding, but it's the road where 32 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: I see other black people walking, and that's the somewhat 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: rare sighting over here. I'm in a heavily Latino Latino 34 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: neighborhood in a time where distance literally equal safety. Being 35 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: in a public space can provide a basic way to 36 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: see humans being human. Neighborhood very special. To see a 37 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: fellow Negro, it was like a family reunion with people 38 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: I've never met before. So thus black people hill now 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: where I'm walking right now, I call coy Rod Because 40 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: what if we applied this sense of connection, community and 41 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: humanity to technology. Our current platforms encourage us to engage. 42 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: But how's that working out for us? But Scott Galloway 43 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: mentioned social media platforms inflame our arguments and tear at 44 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: our social fabric. Here's a simple truth. The giant tech 45 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: companies are not in the business of what we refer 46 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: to as citizen ng But using some imagination, is there 47 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: reversion of social media that can serve the same function 48 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: as our public spaces, like those parks and community centers, 49 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: those things we came to rely on this last year. 50 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: This all feels daunting, but I've got hope. This moment 51 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: calls for a lot of kind of creativity and boldness 52 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: and public imagination. Eli paris Or believes that through new 53 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: design principles, we can change our digital spaces so that 54 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: they bring us together instead of tearing us apart. And 55 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: that might seem insanely ambitious, but the plan he lays 56 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: out is far from impossible. Eli makes his case after 57 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: the break, Eli, Hello, welcome to How to Citizen. How 58 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: are you doing? I am doing well? How are you? 59 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing well? Especially? Eli Pariser is a triple threat, author, activist, 60 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: and entrepreneur. He was the executive director of move on 61 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: dot org and Eli has been a pioneer working to 62 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: create democracy friendly spaces, the ones we sorely need in 63 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: the digital landscape for decades. Right now, he's running a 64 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: nonprofit organization called New Public, and he's putting into practice 65 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: the methods we need to citizen better online. So when 66 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: we sat down, we started our conversation by strolling down 67 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: digital memory lane. I want to rewind the clock a bit, because, um, 68 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: you've been around technology for a while, as have I. 69 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: I can remember the early days with when everything was monochromatic, 70 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: green blinking curses, Unix and DOSS, when you had to 71 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: like manually serve the Internet, you know, like one site 72 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: at a time, just grabbing it. And you had an 73 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: early what we would now call viral moment when you 74 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: were about twenty the attacks and I and Leven had 75 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: just happened. What did you do? Yeah, so I had 76 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: just gotten out of college, and you know, it occurred 77 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: to me that this was one of those moments in 78 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: history where things can go very different directions, and there 79 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: was this opportunity for the world to come together around 80 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: what I thought was really like kind of a global 81 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: problem of terrorism or there was this world where you know, 82 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: people kind of seize it and use it for their 83 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: own political ends and things go badly, and so I 84 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: set up this little website calling for multilateralism. Quick explanation. 85 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: Multilateralism is when multiple nations agree on some common goal 86 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: or mission, in this case, for the potential war on terror. 87 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: And there was this guy at the University of Chicago 88 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: had written up this petition. We put it on the website, 89 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 1: and then I like logged off, you know, I needed 90 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: my phone line for a phone call, and I didn't 91 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: check my email for like four days. So I log on, 92 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, the Monday morning after, and there's this kind 93 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: of loading bar downloading my email, and it says like 94 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: four thousand messages left to download and then forty thousand 95 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 1: messages left it down. It's just this kind of crazy 96 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: and comprehensible thing, like what what happened? And it was 97 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: an early viral email basically like it it had spanned 98 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: the globe. I thought, if we got a couple of 99 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: hundred people to sign it, like that would be something 100 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: that would be good. But I just didn't even imagine 101 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: that we'd have fifty thou people as it ended up 102 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: like five thousand people, you know, signing onto this thing. 103 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: Five hundred thousand people. Yeah, and and from all over 104 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: the world. It was like a hundred and nine two countries. 105 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: And that was crazy. I was a twenty year old 106 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: college student. I had no political connections or capital, I 107 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: had no resources. I had not spent a cent. I 108 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: just put this website up. And so you know, in 109 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: those moments you can kind of see why it might 110 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: feel like this is just this is a democracy tizing technology. 111 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: What kind of email storage did you have in two 112 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: thousand one, because that's a lot of email. I appreciate 113 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: I appreciate the follow up questions. This is really the 114 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: kind of detail I think people are interested in. It's 115 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: like I was on outlook. By the way you painting 116 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: this two thousand one picture is taken me back there 117 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: as well. I'm remembering the simplicity of the websites, the 118 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: crudeness of the HTML, the optimism. M uh that again, 119 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: the terrible design comes back to me a lot. This 120 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: was like peak ugly Internet, but also peak beautiful Internet, 121 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: because we didn't care what it looked like. What was 122 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: the potential that you saw in this period? The idea 123 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: was that information is power and knowledge is power, and 124 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: here's this technology that's making information and access to some 125 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: degree free and also allowing people to conceivably the public 126 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: could break through with the leads because they could demonstrate 127 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: to each other, hey, we all care about this issue. 128 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: And as an organizer you start to see that as 129 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: a moment where people are willing to do more because 130 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: one of the biggest impediments to citizen power is just 131 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: feeling like I'm alone and in my concerns, and so 132 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: that ability to like quickly find like, oh, there's a 133 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: there's millions of other people who are concerned like me 134 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: about what's going on. It seemed like it could change 135 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: the dynamics of what was happening in politics, and in 136 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: the same way, you know, change some of the economic dynamics. 137 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: If I had been placing you know, five thousand phone 138 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: calls around the world at that time, yes, long distance 139 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: was still expensive, like that would be a real undertaking. 140 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: But here was this thing that was like completely horizontal 141 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: and free. The main reason that I wanted to talk 142 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: to you, besides this trip down Lexicon memory Lane, which 143 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: has been joyful, is this work you're doing with New Public, 144 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: this new platform organization, trying to connect and inspire the 145 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: people who build the Internet tools we use and the 146 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: people who design them to use them to make better 147 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: digital public spaces, Healthier public spaces for us to interact 148 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: with each other that don't descend into some of the 149 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: horrors that so many of us have experienced. In your definition, 150 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: what is new public? So New Public started as kind 151 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: of a research project I was working with and co 152 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: founded it with Talia Stroud. There's this communications professor in 153 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: the University of Texas who studies how media organizations and 154 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: communities can get engaged better in civic life, and we 155 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: started to ask this question that was kind of taking 156 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: the conversation about tech and flipping it a little. There's 157 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: a lot of conversation about misinformation, disinformation, hate speech, and 158 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: all of that is really critical and important work that's happening, 159 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: But somewhere in there, I think you could end up 160 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: playing a lot of whack a mole if you didn't 161 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: have a north star of where you wanted to get. Like, 162 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: in other words, a good Internet is like a conducive 163 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: space for people to come together, especially across difference. And 164 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: so our original project was like, can we start to 165 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: put some definition on what the qualities of the spaces 166 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: that we would really want would be, and then we 167 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: can evaluate, like can our existing platforms even possibly help 168 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: us get there, or do we need something else. We 169 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: came out with something called the Civic Signals, which are 170 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: basically kind of fourteen qualities that we saw show up 171 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: again and again across different academic disciplines and also in 172 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: interviews and in surveys that we did with people in 173 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: twenty countries around the world, and the qualities that they 174 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: want to see in their digital spaces. And if we 175 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: think about digital platforms as spaces rather than just as 176 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: markets for information, how does that change, you know, how 177 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: we might think about designing them. And we realized, like, oh, 178 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: this problem of designing spaces where strangers can relate to 179 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: each other can behave well, like, this is an old problem. 180 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: This is an urban planning problem, and it's a problem 181 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: that's been around, you know, as long as human settlements 182 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: have been around. And so why aren't we bringing all 183 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: of that kind of understanding to some of the questions 184 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: that seem so intractable online. I really like this idea 185 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: of asking people what they want in a platform, in 186 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: a space, trying to define a north star. I think 187 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: so many of us have gotten used to settling for 188 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: whatever is seemingly available before us. What's the elevator pitch 189 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: for what new public is trying to do in establishing 190 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: that north thought. So we're basically like an incubator that 191 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: draws on the research that we've done to help support 192 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: community leaders and technologists who are trying to build better 193 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: digital spaces. And our belief is that it's when those 194 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: two ways of thinking come together, kind of the social 195 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: intelligence and the design and engineering intelligence, that you really 196 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: find sustainable and durable solutions. But we've adopted this saying 197 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: from a Nobel Prize winning economist Eleanor Ostrom about no 198 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: panaceas it ain't pretty, but society is complex. People are 199 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: complex and forced to have simple solutions to complex problems 200 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: not a good idea. And she studies like how human 201 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: beings manage commons well, and it turns out like all 202 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: over the world actually contra you know, tragedy of the commons. 203 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: There are lots of examples where communities really do manage 204 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: commons well, but there is no one master key, there's 205 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: no one master pattern to commons management. It always happens 206 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: in a very specific way to that community, to that 207 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: set of problems. And when we think about the way 208 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: that we're structuring the Internet right now, you know it 209 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: is built around there is a Facebook algorithm and maybe 210 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: millions of lines of code. It exists for everyone in 211 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: the world, you know, everywhere. We think that's impossible. You 212 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: can't get to something that really works for everybody with 213 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: one master protocol or approach. So if there are no panaceas, 214 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: no universal solutions, how do you give people the tools 215 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: to build the right kinds of solutions for the particular 216 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: problems and the particular communities that they're in. There You're 217 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: on again about democratizing and civic power and helping people 218 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: to find their own futures. But no, it's like I 219 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,479 Speaker 1: do think our current digital environment is like subtly so undemocratic. 220 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: Your option is to be part of Facebook or not 221 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: be part of it, and not being part of it 222 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: at this point has some social costs, or not being 223 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: part of LinkedIn has some social costs. But you don't 224 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: get to like weigh in on a design change or 225 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: have any say and what the rules of speech should be, 226 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: how people should work. And I think that's problematic and pernicious. 227 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: I think there's a better way to do things. Now, 228 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: what New public is calling for our digital public spaces. 229 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: These are similar to physical public spaces like a park 230 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: or library, right owned by the public, serving the public 231 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: interest in these civil, social kind of political ways. And 232 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: that's different from a digital private space that most of 233 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: us use in a daily basis. Right those spaces that 234 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: operate like a walled garden where corporate owners got total control. 235 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: Not everybody has equal access, and the space is really 236 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: designed for commercial or financial interests, not a public interest. 237 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: So tell me why you think it's important to have 238 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: digital public spaces as opposed to just a bunch more 239 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: digital private spaces. So when we were doing this kind 240 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: of look at the sociology of communities offline in the 241 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: physical world, one thing that was very apparent was like 242 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: the value and importance of places like parks and libraries 243 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: in building kind of cohesion and giving people forums to 244 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: raise their concerns. You know, there's just a whole bunch 245 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: of ways in which, like measurably, these public places helped 246 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: knit communities together. And that's because they do whole bunch 247 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: of things that most private places simply can't or won't. 248 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: Lending books to anyone who needs them, especially to people 249 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: who can't afford to pay them. Is just not a 250 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: good idea for a business, but it's a great idea 251 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: for a community function. I think part of the problem 252 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: when you kind of think about our online world right now, 253 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: is that we're trying to cram all of these different 254 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: functions that need to happen in order to have a 255 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: sustainable community. And I think even if you have the 256 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: wisest possible leadership and the best possible management and everything 257 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: was perfect, it's just not what they're there to do. 258 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: And that's okay, but we need this other thing as well. 259 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: The library metaphor really strikes me, and I've been able 260 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: to see the community function that the library is performing 261 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: pre pandemic and during the pandemic, a literal common space. 262 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: People bring their kids there. They're obviously lending books as 263 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: one function, but they have production facilities, they have career advice, 264 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: they have citizenship training for those who are new to 265 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: the country who really want to join the commons in 266 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: a technical legal sense, and you know, Amazon is not 267 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: doing that. It's more than a place of transactions, right, 268 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: sort of a place of people and connection and community. 269 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: So when you put it that way at digital public 270 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: space feels lacking because every example that my mind goes 271 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: to is actually a private space. Tell me more about 272 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: that than what what does a quality a well functioning 273 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: public space, digital or otherwise need to thrive well. I 274 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: mean the first piece is you need to be serving 275 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of community needs. And I think that's one 276 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: of the cool things about libraries is that it's not 277 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: like people go to the library because they want to 278 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: be a great citizen. Like they go to the library 279 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: because they need a book, or their kid needs a 280 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: place to play chess, or they need a meeting room. 281 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of really tangible needs that need to 282 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: be met, and there are librarians. I think there is 283 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: another sort of piece of what's missing in digital spaces. 284 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: You know, what would a library be like if it 285 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: was all self served and don't like, you know, instructions 286 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: taped to the door, but go in at your own peril. 287 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: Like it would be hard, especially with the library, because 288 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: you know, there's a whole bunch of people with a 289 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: bunch of pretty different needs trying to get their needs 290 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: met simultaneously and balancing that's challenging, and you have, you know, 291 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: someone who's experiencing homelessness over here, who's trying to get 292 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: their unemployment benefits, and you know, someone who's got their 293 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: young kids at a story hour and without someone kind 294 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: of holding that space and mediating it um, you can 295 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: run into real trouble, which I would argue is like 296 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: a lot of what happens online. And as soon as 297 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: those conflicts start to escalate, than that experience of safety 298 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: and the experience that oh I can be with people 299 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: who are pretty different and it's okay, starts to dissipate 300 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: more librarians is never a problem. It's always a step 301 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: towards the solution. Go librarians, all right. You alluded to 302 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: four categories of signals. They seem like a new etiquette 303 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: or framework so we can actually have more quality digital 304 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: public spaces. Break that down for me. The first and 305 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: most important in many ways is this welcome category, which 306 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: is where a lot of platforms fall down kind of 307 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: almost as soon as they've started, which is, do people 308 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: feel invited to be part of the conversation here in 309 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: the first place? Do they feel safe to be part 310 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: of that conversation? Does the platform go out of its 311 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: way to help humanize people to each other, or does 312 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: it quickly reduce us to you know, our most incendiary 313 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: positions or to caricatures. And I think there's a reason 314 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: that in our physical life we haven't reserved a huge 315 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: amount of space. That's like walk up to a stranger 316 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: and tell them you're hottest. Take uh, you know, we 317 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: haven't recreated Twitter in real life. Yeah, there's but there's 318 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: a reason for that, which is like, it's difficult and 319 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: unpleasant and mostly people don't want it. But having spaces 320 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: like parks and libraries where you just see people who 321 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: are having different lives than you. You're in a park especially, 322 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: you're in this nice environment, and you just get to 323 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: be like, okay, they're familiar, I've seen them a couple 324 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: of times before. Maybe this is all okay, and we're 325 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: part of something together. That's that's nice. That's really an 326 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: important experience actually in in building a democratic culture. So 327 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: then then we've got to connect. And connect isn't just 328 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: about like everybody connect with everybody. It's about how do 329 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: you support kind of good connection, especially across groups. Because 330 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: we know, for example, when it comes to like economic opportunities, 331 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: job postings will often literally get stuck. And how do 332 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: you build these networks that like allow information, allow ideas 333 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: to kind of cross boundaries. You need to build bridges 334 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: between these groups, and there are ways you can design 335 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: for that, and there's a whole field about designing for that, 336 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: and so we kind of get into how do we 337 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: support better designs for cross group contact essentially, and then 338 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: there's this understand chunk, which is really, you know, not 339 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: just about individual understanding, but it's about how do we 340 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: build meaning together. So one of the things that really 341 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: effective communities do is you kind of have this yes 342 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: and element where people are kind of adding their their perspective, 343 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: their point of view, and you're building something that you 344 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: really couldn't build along. And I think because digital products 345 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: are often built for with a kind of individual user 346 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: in mind, we don't think a lot about sort of 347 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: how do we facilitate these collective experiences that are really important. 348 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: And then finally you get to act. And act isn't 349 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: just vote or change your community selectmen. It's actually like 350 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: just platforms that facilitate people coming together and doing something together. 351 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: Because one of the things that sociologists and social scientists 352 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: and political scientists tell us is that really any time 353 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: you get a group of people, especially across some difference, 354 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: just to accomplish something together. That builds social trust, It 355 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: builds a sense of power and capacity and agency, and 356 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: that has this kind of like it feeds back on 357 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: the whole thing where people then are willing to take 358 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: on something more. How did you and your co founder 359 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: Talia come up with these? So basically, we we talked 360 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: to over a hundred experts in a whole bunch of 361 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: different fields, from urban planning to political scientists to community experts, 362 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: and ask them what public spaces needed for a healthy 363 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: society and a healthy democracy. And then we did these 364 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: focus groups where we kind of took them out in 365 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: five different countries around the world, talk to people and 366 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: really got sense of like does this resonate, does it's 367 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: not resonate? Change some things, And then finally surveyed people 368 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: in twenty countries just to make sure that this was 369 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: resonating and also to get a sense of how people 370 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: evaluated which platforms did well on on what. And that 371 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: was also really fascinating because you could see both what 372 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: people wanted from the platforms that we have today and 373 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: where they fell short. Where did the private spaces the 374 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: companies that most of us been too much time on 375 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: Where did they most fall short? Well? I mean on 376 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: that welcome category, there weren't a lot of them that 377 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: did very well. And just you know, do I feel 378 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: invited to be here? Do I feel safe? Do I 379 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: feel humanized? Like there was really not a platform but 380 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: did especially well on humanization, which I think says a 381 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: lot about our current digital environment. It's a powerful word, humanization. 382 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: I think it's an easy one to use. So if 383 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: it strikes me as very plausible that they are bad 384 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: at humanization, because I don't always feel very human in 385 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: in myself. If you look at a TikTok, it's like, 386 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: please don't colonize this sound. If you're not black, just 387 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: watch and enjoy. There's two sides to it, right, there's 388 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: these moments of incredible kind of creative expression and a 389 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: window and to all of these worlds that you just 390 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: would never get to occupy otherwise. And then there's this 391 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: sense of like, but I've got a game this for 392 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: attention for clicks, and that's kind of an always on endeavor. 393 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: And I think we saw this in the service too. 394 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: It's like, there are real value that these platforms provide. 395 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: I just think part of the problem is like we're 396 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: asking too much of the platforms that we have as 397 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: opposed to like inventing a world that has more opportunities 398 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: for different kinds of experiences and different kinds of spaces. 399 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: So you're out here trying to invent new worlds, and 400 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people concerned about the topics 401 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Part of their approach is regulatory. It's 402 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: like we've got to limit the power, the reach, the 403 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: depth of these organizations, apply new rules and new regulations. 404 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: That doesn't sound like the focus of yours is much 405 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: more creative and inventive the usual own language. Why have 406 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: you chosen this approach and why have you chosen to 407 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: work on this of all the things you could do 408 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: right now? I think the regulation piece is important, But 409 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: I also think without a kind of imagination for what 410 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: we want, it's hard even to regulate well, let alone 411 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: to start to like move towards the future that we want. 412 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: And I think this moment calls for a lot of 413 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: kind of creativity and boldness and public imagination. I think 414 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: this is the playbook for how we've moved through times 415 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: of social stress and social fracture in the past is 416 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: like we've invented new kinds of organizations, new kinds of institutions, 417 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 1: public library or a thing that we're invented, and so 418 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: we're public parks like they didn't always exist with public parks. 419 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: We're starting to build these things called cities. There's a 420 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: lot of smoke and people don't have a place to 421 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: go to exercise and get some fresh air, Like we 422 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: need to think about how to do that. Oh, let's 423 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: have a park that's open to everyone. I think we're 424 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: kind of there with our digital life, where like it's 425 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: not just about tweaking things, it's about really having the 426 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: bold vision for like, what is the life we want 427 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: to live, and what are the kinds of institutions we 428 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: need to make that life possible. I am indeed tired 429 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: of breathing the toxic smoke of the current Internet, and 430 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: I would love a public park equivalent. This effort, this 431 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: mission that you've given yourself is very aspirational. It makes 432 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: me feel warm and fuzzy inside. It restores my faith 433 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: in people, and then I have to ask, how real 434 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: is it? Yeah? I think, Um, we're starting to see 435 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: more and more people take this on right, and there 436 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: are people who have been building places like front Porch 437 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: Forum in Vermont, which is kind of a great example 438 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: of what social media can look like when it's detached 439 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: from the pressure of kind of up into the right 440 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: exponential growth expectation. So from Porch Forum, it's basically like 441 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: a local discussion forum that's heavily moderated in every community 442 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: in Vermont. Oh throwback term list serve. It's it's like 443 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: a listener, but it's like a really well moderated listener. Right, 444 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: so before you can post, someone's going to read your 445 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: message and they'll send it back to you if you 446 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: run a foul of the norms, which are pretty like serious. 447 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: Even though you know Facebook is very popular, Twitter is 448 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: very popular, all of these platforms are popular or Vermont, 449 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: there's this different quality of conversation that happens when it's 450 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: slow and it's thoughtful and there's an expectation that we're 451 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: really going to stick to the agreements we make about 452 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: how we're speaking to each other. To me, that's like 453 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: one example that exists right now that I think that 454 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: you can have one of those in every community, and 455 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: the United States, it would probably need to be different 456 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: in every community because no panicsy is I like that example? 457 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: It sounds deliberate. A lot of us are hooked on 458 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: what I would consider a kind of an entitled version 459 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: of the Internet where I want to I get to 460 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: I will that's it. I something came to my mind. 461 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: I'm going to post it. It's my right to post it. 462 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: And what you're describing as a different balance where there's 463 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: a sense of obligation as well, Like I can't imagine 464 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: if I had launched a tweet and it came back 465 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: to me, this isn't good enough, this is too rude. 466 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: You're gonna make somebody, You're gonna hurt somebody's feeling, like 467 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: that's what a tweet is dog launch, Like, why should 468 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: we care about this? There's a lot of people I 469 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: can imagine and know some of them who are like, 470 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: they can have my data. I'm a grown up. I 471 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: know what I'm doing. I don't need like a library 472 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: version of the Internet. Just control yourself and be a 473 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: good person. Is it that hard? Why do we need 474 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: a digital public space designed intentionally for these outcomes? Unless 475 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: you're literally in the cabinet, was you have to deal 476 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: with society or society is going to come deal with 477 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: you and you wanted to be healthy, you wanted to 478 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: be good. I think that's one perspective. I think another 479 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: pieces there's just so many people who don't get to 480 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: to contribute, and that's a loss for all of us. 481 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: There was a great study on our science where they 482 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: started kind of moving the norms toward being explicit about 483 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: what kind of speech was welcome and I welcome there. 484 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: And there was this question of whether that would just 485 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: put off everyone, everyone would feel kind of like nannied 486 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: and and shut up. But actually what they found was 487 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: not only was there more speech, there's a lot more 488 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: speech from women, from folks of color, from groups that 489 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: would kind of tend to feel like, am I is 490 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: it okay to be here? Is it okay to be 491 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: speaking here? Those are the people who then felt like, oh, okay, 492 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: I can speak up, And those conversations are better when 493 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: you know you don't just have a bunch of entitled 494 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: dudes talking to each other. So I think there's something 495 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: that we all miss out on when we don't create 496 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: spaces that are actually doing that work. What if you're wrong? 497 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: What if humanity is just trash? Right? What if what 498 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: if your goals and aspirations for us exceed what we're 499 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: capable of, and this is who we really are, and 500 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: you can try to mitigate that with some better design, 501 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: But you're fighting upstream against human nature. What do you 502 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: say to that. You know there is no such thing 503 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: as universal human nature. And part of what we know 504 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: from social scientists is that even the same person in 505 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: different contexts will behave in radically different ways, and in 506 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,479 Speaker 1: some contexts will be much more altruistic and other context 507 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: will be much more selfish. A lot of that has 508 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: to do with the situation we find ourselves in and 509 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: how we understand how we fit into that situation. And 510 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: so this is kind of the no panaceas point, Like, 511 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: I just don't think there are universal statements that are 512 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: very helpful about humanity as a whole, because people are 513 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: lots of things, and there are definitely some pretty screwed 514 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: up people out there with some pretty screwed up objectives, 515 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: But there are also so many times when you can 516 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: look at these stories of people with just like not 517 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: a lot of resources coming together and doing something really cool, 518 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: And to me, that's kind of the battle is, like, 519 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: how do we help those people on those moments happen more, 520 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: and the people who are kind of aiming to do 521 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: screwed up stuff do it a little less. And if 522 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: we can tilt that balance a little bit, Like it 523 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a universal solve, it just has 524 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: to kind of be a game of inches. It sounds 525 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: like somebody's trying to bend the moral arc of the 526 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: universe towards justice. I wouldn't. It's a small small part 527 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: of that project. It's look, if billions of us pull 528 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: on that arc, it'll be right, not all build in 529 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,479 Speaker 1: just a majority. We just need more. And it's like 530 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: at any given time, the reality is most people are 531 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: just living their lives, doing their thing. And that's why 532 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: building the number of people at the edges who are engaged, 533 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: who are active can be so powerful because people are busy. 534 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: We've got a lot of stuff going on, and just 535 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: a little bit of extra time and a little bit 536 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: of extra energy really actually like can have a big, 537 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: big impact. This stuff takes time. What do you want 538 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: for future generations? I have heard some kids in the background, 539 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: so I've seen you're pretty invested in the future. Yeah, 540 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: my kids have it pretty good and are privileged. But 541 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: even for them, like I look at the digital landscape 542 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: that they're going to grow up and be a part of, 543 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: and I worry for them, like I worry for their souls. 544 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: I worry for what it means to them to be 545 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: human being and some of these environments that we've created, 546 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: because they can be pretty soul sucking, pretty extractive. So 547 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: what I want and what I think is possible, and 548 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: it's not going to be me, but it's like this 549 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: movement that's growing to say, like, hey, we can build 550 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: digital environments that are good for people, and we should 551 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: do that, and that's going to require thinking about it differently, 552 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: Like I want those kinds of environments to be available 553 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: to them. It doesn't have to be that you're spending 554 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: all of your time in the park. Nobody spends all 555 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: their time in the park or the library. But going 556 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: to the park allows you to see a certain way 557 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: of being together that's possible, that changes your ideas about 558 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: what humanity is. And that's kind of what I want 559 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: for them, is to have those spaces where you can say, like, oh, 560 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: it is possible to have like a good conversation with 561 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: strangers online that doesn't evolve into all of us calling 562 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: each other Nazis. When you put it that way, it 563 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: sounds like such a meager request and so achievable. And 564 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: I also think it's it's important that you oldline that 565 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: in the words of like the early eighties serials commercials. 566 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: That is the stuck in my head. This is part 567 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: of a complete breakfast, right, it's not digital. No one 568 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: lives in the library or just hangs out in the park, 569 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: like you said, And so you're not trying to displace 570 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: the spaces were already used to. You're calling for some variation, 571 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: some diversity, options, choice, even um a capitalist should love it. Yeah, 572 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: you know when you talk about freedom and that kind 573 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: of like everybody should just be free to do whatever 574 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: you want. Like the limits of that idea of freedom 575 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: are that how do you think about freedom when there 576 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: are certain kinds of things you can only do with 577 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: other people, you can only experience with other people. And 578 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: if your only thing about freedom is this individual like 579 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: I get to do it or I don't get to 580 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: do it, you miss all these categories of human experience. 581 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,959 Speaker 1: There's some of the most joyful, amazing categories that only 582 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: are facilitated by being able to be doing stuff with 583 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: other people. And so I think there's that piece as well, 584 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: which is like, you don't get to really be free 585 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 1: if you're free, you know, just in your own yard. Yeah, 586 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: freedom all by your damn self is kind of missing 587 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: out on a lot of the value of freedom. Yeah, Eli, 588 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: I have thoroughly enjoyed finally being able to spend some 589 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: quality one on one time with you. Thank you for 590 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: doing this has been great. Thank you. Eli's reasons for 591 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: designing a new Internet are pretty personal. It's for as kids, 592 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: and that seems like a good thing when designing things, 593 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: shouldn't we be making things with the people we love 594 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: in mind? Eli and Talia created the Signals as guide 595 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: posts for new online conduct and design. These principles directly 596 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: speak to democratizing and harnessing civic power in digital spaces. 597 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: They're both helping folks define their own digital futures. It's 598 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: a roadmap for our tech future, at least one we want. 599 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: But it's also damn good philosophy to carry offline as 600 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: well as the world heals or struggles to. Maybe we 601 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: can start using this new framework in person. Here at 602 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: how to Citizen, we're committed to giving you things to 603 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: do beyond listening to me talk to somebody, though the 604 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: talking is pretty good. We're building an entire universe of 605 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: citizen action over at our shiny new website, how to 606 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: citizen dot com. It's got every episode transcripts, links to guests, 607 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: and things you can do. Now, for every episode, we're 608 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: offering you three ways to take action. A personal reflection 609 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: you can do alone and even just in your head, 610 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: a way to get more informed and publicly participating, joining 611 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: with others for something out in the world. So for 612 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: this episode, here are three things you can do. First, 613 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: I want you to reflect on some recent online interactions 614 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: you've had with total strangers on social media. Now, think 615 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: about some interactions you've had with strangers offline, maybe in 616 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: a public park or library. How did each of these 617 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: experiences make you feel? Did you prefer one over the other? 618 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: And why again, just think about it in terms of 619 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: becoming more informed. Check out New Public's new design playbook 620 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: for building digital public spaces of the future. It was 621 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: built from two years of global research and feedback. Also 622 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: read elis thought provoking article in the Atlantic. It's all 623 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: about envisioning a future online that serves the public good 624 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: and supports a culture of democracy which is totally possible. Finally, 625 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: in terms of publicly participating, I want you to try 626 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: to find or create an online community in a space 627 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: that isn't a giant shopping mall where you can practice 628 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: some of the fourteen signals, but using a platform like 629 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: highl h y l O or Mighty Networks. I think 630 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: you could do that. I'm gonna try to now. Look, 631 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: we've got links to all this and more over at 632 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: how to citizen dot com, and please follow us on 633 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: Instagram shiny new account at how to Citizen. There you 634 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 1: can share and learn from others on the journey. Next week, 635 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: we talked to a tech designer, an activist who's got 636 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: some very strong opinions about the birth of the Internet. 637 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: People always complained it's like, oh, the Internet is full 638 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: of idiots, because that's by design how we made it. 639 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: I told you serious opinions. We aim for brutal honesty here, folks. 640 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: Stay safe and stay tuned. We've got more imagination and 641 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: stories coming next time. Keep citizen and y'all. How to 642 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: Citizen with barrettun Day is a production of I Heart 643 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: Radio podcast and dust Light Productions. Our executive producers are 644 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,359 Speaker 1: me Barritton Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Yusuf. Our 645 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: senior producer is Tamika Adams. Our producer is Ali Kilts 646 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: and our stint producer Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cone is our editor, 647 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Laie as 648 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: our apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapen, with additional original 649 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: music for season three from Andrew Clauson. This episode was 650 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: produced and sound designed by Tamika Adams. Special thanks to 651 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: Joel Smith from My Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at 652 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: dust Light Production.