Speaker 1: Hey, folks.
Speaker 2: It is Saturday, April eighteenth, and Utah Valley University, the
Speaker 2: site of the death of Charlie kirk Well. They were
Speaker 2: set to have their commencement this month, but they just
Speaker 2: dropped plans for a commencement speaker. And the reasons are
Speaker 2: well a bit unclear. And with that, welcome to this
Speaker 2: episode of Amy and TJ Rohlds. I say unclear. It's
Speaker 2: clear to some, not so much to other. I guess
Speaker 2: what's the real answer as to why Utah Valley University.
Speaker 2: And this would have been a big one ropes, the
Speaker 2: first commencement since that assassination on their campus. But now
Speaker 2: they said, nope, we're not gonna have a speaker.
Speaker 3: Yes, because the speaker that they chose, her name might
Speaker 3: not be a household one.
Speaker 4: Her name is Susan McMahon.
Speaker 3: She's commonly referred to as America's government teacher, but she's
Speaker 3: a New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker 4: She's a podcaster.
Speaker 3: All of that sounds great and inspirational, and she talks
Speaker 3: about political unity. She's non den off, she doesn't take side.
Speaker 3: She's doesn't say she's a Republican or a Democrat. Perfect
Speaker 3: right to unite this group, the student body graduating from
Speaker 3: a university that was put on the map for all
Speaker 3: the wrong reasons.
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately, she made a statement.
Speaker 3: On Facebook the day of Charlie Kirk's assassination, but then
Speaker 3: she went on two days later to put some posts
Speaker 3: out on social media that ruffled the feathers and really
Speaker 3: angered a lot of folks on campus who were Charlie
Speaker 3: Kirk fans.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me you've done a deeper dive on
Speaker 2: this story than I have, so I have a few
Speaker 2: questions that other people might have as well. First of all,
Speaker 2: did it cause an uproar at the time, were people
Speaker 2: attacking her at the time of his death, or these
Speaker 2: are things now that people went back and checked her
Speaker 2: out and are discovering now.
Speaker 3: It appears that people went back and took a look
Speaker 3: at who this woman was once she was announced at
Speaker 3: the end of last month as the commencement speaker. So
Speaker 3: this is a fairly new announcement. Actually, I feel like
Speaker 3: that's kind of a short period of time, and maybe
Speaker 3: they knew what was perhaps on her resume, so to speak,
Speaker 3: and what might be upsetting to some folks.
Speaker 4: I don't know why they chose her.
Speaker 3: Clearly, you would think they would have vetted her her
Speaker 3: social media posts at this point. We know that's a
Speaker 3: part of vetting anyone to speak publicly or be a
Speaker 3: part of your campus or your organization.
Speaker 4: So maybe they waited.
Speaker 3: But they waited until the end of March before they
Speaker 3: made this announcement, and pretty quickly folks started making comments
Speaker 3: about how they were not happy with this decision and
Speaker 3: frankly outraged by the decision.
Speaker 1: Oh but I didn't realize it was that quick.
Speaker 2: This was weeks they made the announcement and she's out
Speaker 2: as a speaker in a matter of weeks. Now, the
Speaker 2: question are, well, I have several questions. What do we
Speaker 2: want to answer? First what she said and let people
Speaker 2: hear that.
Speaker 4: Okay, maybe we start from that point.
Speaker 3: So one thing that she and her camp have pointed
Speaker 3: to is on the day of Charlie Kirk's assassination, that
Speaker 3: was September tenth, twenty twenty five, she immediately condemned the act.
Speaker 3: She went on to Facebook and she said, this isn't
Speaker 3: the kind of America I want to live in. I
Speaker 3: am sure Charlie Kirk and I would not agree on
Speaker 3: many things, and my heart is broken for his family.
Speaker 1: That was the first that was her.
Speaker 3: On the day of his assassination, she went to Facebook
Speaker 3: and she said that. However, two days later, on September twelfth,
Speaker 3: she made a post that has since been deleted. She
Speaker 3: had quotes from Charlie Kirk, and here was her caption.
Speaker 3: These aren't sound bites taken out of context. Millions of
Speaker 3: people feel they were harmed, and the murder that was
Speaker 3: horrific and should never have happened does not magically erase
Speaker 3: what was said or done. The controversy isn't about being
Speaker 3: politically incorrect, having a different opinion, or preaching the gospel.
Speaker 3: It is about repeating bigoted ideas on a stage that
Speaker 3: reached tens of millions. It's important to remember that the
Speaker 3: incredible tragedy of a public assassination does not erase the
Speaker 3: harm many experienced from his work, words and the ensuing
Speaker 3: actions his followers took. Is that the one that's the
Speaker 3: one that really upset people. And then she added to
Speaker 3: many Americans, especially if you're black, LGBTQ, or Muslim, Charlie
Speaker 3: Kirk was not a person who was simply engaged in
Speaker 3: good faith debates on college campuses.
Speaker 1: It was that same part of the same.
Speaker 4: One she put up.
Speaker 3: And all of these posts there was a caption, there
Speaker 3: were quote. All have been deleted, but she did put
Speaker 3: them up.
Speaker 2: Can I ask when were they when they were? Okay,
Speaker 2: So if this happened in the past couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: that's the Yeah.
Speaker 4: All I know is that they were.
Speaker 3: They've been referred to as since deleted deleted tweets.
Speaker 2: All right, So, folks on campus, I guess what started
Speaker 2: bubbling up? I guess ropes? Was it a me as
Speaker 2: soon as she was announced. I assume people started looking
Speaker 2: into her and this came up. But what has been
Speaker 2: the I hate using backlash all the time.
Speaker 4: But here's the interesting thing.
Speaker 3: When there was starting to be some backlash, it's really
Speaker 3: interesting what the university said. Initially, this was on April eighth.
Speaker 3: They put out a big public statement. They said the
Speaker 3: response to her speaking for commencement have been overwhelmingly positive.
Speaker 3: She focuses on a non partisan approach to history and civics,
Speaker 3: which is consistent with our standards as a university. And
Speaker 3: the university added that she had spoken on campus previously
Speaker 3: and was well received, so they were defending it. When
Speaker 3: there started to be some comments that were negative about
Speaker 3: their decision. They immediately came out and defended their decision.
Speaker 2: And one, what do we know how recently she had
Speaker 2: been she had spoken on campus? Any chance she's spoken
Speaker 2: on campus since his death?
Speaker 4: That was what the reference was.
Speaker 3: Yes, that she had spoken, Yes, and they had all
Speaker 3: received so they I think this is why they felt
Speaker 3: comfortable having her be the commencement speaker. And look, there
Speaker 3: were plenty of positive comments and a lot of positive feedback. However,
Speaker 3: the opposition voices that surely contributed to their decision were
Speaker 3: from the Turning Point USA chapter president, who was there
Speaker 3: on campus obviously, and several notable Republicans. You had Congressman
Speaker 3: Burgess Owens, who wrote an open letter to Sharon mccannon
Speaker 3: this week on April fifteenth.
Speaker 4: Saying what well, asking her to step down.
Speaker 3: She said, I write a letter, he said, I write
Speaker 3: a letter regarding your planned participation.
Speaker 4: You should withdraw.
Speaker 3: This is not a casual disagreement over ideas, nor is
Speaker 3: it an attempt to suppress your voice.
Speaker 4: The issue is judgment and timing.
Speaker 3: It is whether this moment calls for restraint, humility, and respect,
Speaker 3: or for something else entirely huh on an open letter
Speaker 3: on x Then US Senator Mike Lee also said UVU
Speaker 3: couldn't even wait a year before scheduling a commencement speaker
Speaker 3: who defamed Charlie Kirk in the days immediately following his
Speaker 3: horrific murder on UVU campus. Then you had Congresswoman Celest
Speaker 3: Malloy saying, I am disappointed in UVU's tone deaf decision.
Speaker 3: A commencement should bring a campus together, and UVU needs
Speaker 3: that more than ever, So just saying that they should
Speaker 3: reverse course choose a speaker who will unite the student body. Yes, Basically,
Speaker 3: every prominent Republican lawmaker from the state of Utah was
Speaker 3: upset and very public about their concerns about.
Speaker 4: Having her speaking.
Speaker 2: Okay, a Republican, every Republican. Okay, this is confirming here, correct, Okay,
Speaker 2: So this is what we talked about at the top.
Speaker 2: The reason that she was that she's no longer speaking.
Speaker 2: It's not because she was dumped as a speaker. Is
Speaker 2: how they're putting it. Is that the same face I
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: And they did not give any specific security threats, but
Speaker 3: they blamed it on that they This was the official
Speaker 3: statement from UVU. They made this announcement, I believe, on
Speaker 3: Thursday due to increased safety concerns related to the speaker
Speaker 3: and in consultation with public safety professionals and Sharon McMahon,
Speaker 3: Utah Valley University has decided to proceed without a featured
Speaker 3: commencement speaker for this year's ceremony. So they blamed security concerns,
Speaker 3: and they're very well may have been. Who knows if
Speaker 3: there were death threats called in, if there were threats
Speaker 3: of violence, and given what that campus has already endured
Speaker 3: with the assassination, the very public assassination of Charlie Kirk,
Speaker 3: it's just fascinating to me though, because look, there was
Speaker 3: an opportunity for learning, growth and all of that. However,
Speaker 3: I do also wonder how this wasn't more carefully considered,
Speaker 3: given just how close in proximity it's been to Charlie
Speaker 3: Kirk's assassination, and given the fact that this campus did
Speaker 3: have a very public assassination, just the concerns surrounding that period.
Speaker 1: With do you say a period or having her or anybody.
Speaker 3: Or having anyone who has any any connection at all
Speaker 3: or weighed in at all on his assassination being put
Speaker 3: there on a stage in the middle of a massive
Speaker 3: graduation ceremony.
Speaker 4: I don't know. That would just be a little frightening.
Speaker 2: It I I don't know. I don't have, like you said,
Speaker 2: anyone who has a background. So what are they supposed
Speaker 2: to do? Do we need to make sure this year,
Speaker 2: on this one, we have got to nail this right
Speaker 2: and make it perfect. And does that mean we need
Speaker 2: to have somebody who is in full support of Charlie Kirk,
Speaker 2: who agreed with all the ideas of Charlie Kirk, or
Speaker 2: someone who just didn't say shit about Charlie Kirk after
Speaker 2: he died.
Speaker 1: Is that what you do?
Speaker 2: Or should you have somebody from your campus community, have
Speaker 2: somebody who a senior, have a professor that's respected, have
Speaker 2: your school president. Should you bring anybody in at all
Speaker 2: outside of your community, bring in a pastor bring in something.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's the way they should have gone, Robes.
Speaker 1: I still.
Speaker 2: Struggle with what you just said, A missed opportunity, Right,
Speaker 2: This is a woman who I think the statement you
Speaker 2: read about she had about Charlie Kirk two days later
Speaker 2: was one of the most eloquent ones I've heard said.
Speaker 2: Because a lot of people aren't respectful in how they say, Well,
Speaker 2: who cares about his death? He used to say this, this,
Speaker 2: That's not the right tone. She found a good She
Speaker 2: sounded like an academic. She sounded like a bright, smart
Speaker 2: lady who could engage a college campus in ideas. And
Speaker 2: she seemed to be maybe almost the perfect fit.
Speaker 1: Except Robes. Am I wrong in all that?
Speaker 2: Because you have to understand it is too soon, and
Speaker 2: it is too sensitive. Still, this is too raw, and
Speaker 2: don't toy with us at all, with anybody who even
Speaker 2: tiptoed around something like this.
Speaker 3: And I think you just nailed it with that last bit,
Speaker 3: because I agree with everything you said. But remember, was
Speaker 3: it nearly I believe I think USA Today one of
Speaker 3: the papers this week in response to this story, I believe,
Speaker 3: counted it was nearly one hundred people, prominent folks who
Speaker 3: were doctors, lawyers, teachers, educators who lost journalists who lost
Speaker 3: their jobs because they said something publicly on social media
Speaker 3: that didn't feel respectful to everybody who followed and respect
Speaker 3: to Charlie Kirk. That's how sensitive this particular subject has
Speaker 3: been around the country. Now you have it specifically here
Speaker 3: on the very campus where he was murdered. That it's
Speaker 3: even more intense in terms of what's acceptable and what's not,
Speaker 3: at least what people will tolerate and what they won't,
Speaker 3: and the question being would it bring peace, would it
Speaker 3: bring unity or would it create more division?
Speaker 2: Do we think they knew they were aware of these
Speaker 2: I think they had to have known, sed Okay, So
Speaker 2: then there's there's no way I'm on a committee and
Speaker 2: you present that to me and I vote yes, we
Speaker 2: should do her, right, There's no way I'm there, guys. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's not even toy with this a little bit. Do
Speaker 2: you remember how hot things were in this country when
Speaker 2: he got shot, how hot it became afterwards, in the
Speaker 2: back and forth and in the left and the right
Speaker 2: over a guy's death. We should all just be in mourning,
Speaker 2: and instead we were fighting each other. Again, Bro, there's
Speaker 2: zero chanin if you're in that committee room and the
Speaker 2: chancellors say, hey, this is who we want to pick.
Speaker 2: She had these messages a few years ago or last
Speaker 2: year after he died.
Speaker 1: I think this will be a problem.
Speaker 4: Yes, okay.
Speaker 2: Would you have voted to have her as a commencement
Speaker 2: speaker if you had to vote no?
Speaker 1: Okay? Well we're two no votes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I probably would have said, hey, I appreciate
Speaker 3: her tone, I appreciate what she had to say, and
Speaker 3: maybe we can consider her maybe.
Speaker 4: A year from now or five years from now.
Speaker 3: When things have when the intensity of emotions have been
Speaker 3: able to settle a little people or able to maybe
Speaker 3: look at it more reflectively and less emotionally, and then
Speaker 3: maybe this would be a good speaker from that perspective.
Speaker 3: But within months of his assassinations, I can see.
Speaker 4: Now, Yeah, I'm actually confused why they thought this was
Speaker 4: a good choice.
Speaker 2: Again, the one I'm not getting onto the woman for
Speaker 2: doing anything wrong, saying anything wrong. And again I give
Speaker 2: her credit for the way she said it. What robes
Speaker 2: This is the u v U September we were talking
Speaker 2: for or of that seven months ago, he died on
Speaker 2: your campus. It has been the most impactful thing to
Speaker 2: happen on your campus. You're still recovering from that. Kids
Speaker 2: are still walking by the area where this man died.
Speaker 2: And yeah, exactly, Yeah, this is not the one to
Speaker 2: play cute with.
Speaker 3: But when we come back, we're going to talk about
Speaker 3: what Susan McMahon said in defense of herself. It's really
Speaker 3: interesting and may cause you to think, well, maybe she
Speaker 3: would have been the actual perfect person to be the
Speaker 3: commencement speaker at this year's graduation ceremony.
Speaker 4: Welcome back, everyone to this episode of Amy and TJ.
Speaker 3: We're talking about the decision by the Utah Valley University
Speaker 3: to have no commencement speaker at its graduation ceremonies happening
Speaker 3: at the end of this month. This was a major,
Speaker 3: major reversal, of course, because just earlier this week the
Speaker 3: university was defending its decision to have Susan McMahon. She
Speaker 3: is a New York Times bestselling author, She is a podcaster,
Speaker 3: and she has been commonly referred to as America's government teacher.
Speaker 3: She's nonpartisan, she is a uniter, she is philosophically. She
Speaker 3: engages folks and students and people in her community to
Speaker 3: think with an open mind and an open heart. So
Speaker 3: she seems like she would be the perfect person to
Speaker 3: be the commencement speaker at a university that frankly was
Speaker 3: the home of a national tragedy, the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 3: The problem is, Susan McMahon made some comments on her
Speaker 3: social media about Charlie Kirk in the days after his assassination.
Speaker 3: That did not sit well with a lot of folks,
Speaker 3: and they were upset that she even said anything about
Speaker 3: his messaging, even though at the same time she still
Speaker 3: condemned his assassination.
Speaker 4: Can we say anything.
Speaker 3: About how we personally feel about something or a topic
Speaker 3: and still say it respectfully and still have it be
Speaker 3: received in a way that could engage conversation.
Speaker 4: It seems like it's the answers.
Speaker 2: No, it's too political. It wasn't just a matter of
Speaker 2: criticizing Charlie Kirk. Afterwards, if you put any message out
Speaker 2: that wasn't supportive of Charlie Kirk and his messaging and
Speaker 2: his life, I think people were just were even getting attacked.
Speaker 2: That was a very hot time in this country. Ropes
Speaker 2: to where you were better off not open your mouth
Speaker 2: and to be honest, robes it when somebody passes. I
Speaker 2: think about Frankly Kobe Bryant. This is the first thing
Speaker 2: that came to mind where people immediately started bringing up
Speaker 2: past issues he'd had and suggesting almost, well, why are
Speaker 2: you mourning a guy who did this? Why are you mourning?
Speaker 2: Like some of those messages that came out of the time.
Speaker 2: It's not right if you can't, just as a human being,
Speaker 2: give it a beat. Somebody just lost a husband, a father,
Speaker 2: a brother, a son in the most horrific way anybody
Speaker 2: could imagine. You gotta give it a beat just to
Speaker 2: respect the family before you open your mouth, I would say, Robes,
Speaker 2: just as a human being, and you have the right
Speaker 2: to say what you want. But is there no part
Speaker 2: of you when somebody is down that you just want
Speaker 2: to hold your tongue for a second, just as much
Speaker 2: as you might your biggest enemy right now, Robes, whoever
Speaker 2: it is, if they die, the first thing out your
Speaker 2: mouth publicly is not going to be well, yeah, that
Speaker 2: mother did this to me back.
Speaker 1: You're not gonna do that.
Speaker 2: Some people do, though, But that and therein lies the problem.
Speaker 2: You have a right to say it, of course you do,
Speaker 2: but there's some part of timing and just being decent
Speaker 2: that factors into this. And I don't the woman didn't
Speaker 2: bash Charlie Kirk. She was engaging in the conversation that
Speaker 2: was having happening nationally, right, But man.
Speaker 3: Bab you just made such a good point, and I
Speaker 3: think that was part of what some people said.
Speaker 4: Timing is everything, and there is.
Speaker 3: We've done so many of these stories where instead of
Speaker 3: giving it a beat, or just taking some time to
Speaker 3: reflect on your feelings, maybe what you've thought about this
Speaker 3: person leading up to their death and just or whatever
Speaker 3: is happening to them and take a beat, we've just
Speaker 3: we've been doing stories about people just mouthing off. And
Speaker 3: I think just having these phones or these computers right
Speaker 3: at our yeah availability where we can just whatever we're
Speaker 3: feeling in the moment, just type type, type, type and
Speaker 3: click and send, and we don't recognize the impact those
Speaker 3: words will have on someone else. And maybe if we
Speaker 3: just took a moment, took a week, took a beat,
Speaker 3: we would say, why do I need to add this?
Speaker 3: Like what's the value in me adding this? Is it
Speaker 3: me serving me, me feeling good?
Speaker 4: Like I was right? You were wrong?
Speaker 3: See I do think there's an element to that where
Speaker 3: we all want to kind of show that we were
Speaker 3: right all along and look at you, And I just
Speaker 3: think in that spirit, it never elevates the conversation, It
Speaker 3: never moves things forward, it never unites anybody, It makes
Speaker 3: things worse.
Speaker 2: Just you can it's okay to mourn, rogues, to let
Speaker 2: somebody mourn and you I asked anybody who said, well,
Speaker 2: I have the right or this was on my mind
Speaker 2: or this was on my heart. And does your desire
Speaker 2: or your need to say something negative about somebody that
Speaker 2: just passed, does that trump the pain that Charlie Kirk's
Speaker 2: widow was feeling in the days that followed. Is it
Speaker 2: more important to you to have your moment than for
Speaker 2: her to have hers? Ask yourself that robes and if
Speaker 2: you still feel yep, then you go ahead and tweet
Speaker 2: knock yourself out. But rhabe, It's that simple. There's nothing
Speaker 2: any of us could say about Charlie Kirk that was
Speaker 2: more important than just letting that family more and have
Speaker 2: the mind. Now, I'm not talking about a movement, I'm
Speaker 2: not talking about the right and not talking about MAGA,
Speaker 2: just that family.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: We humanize people, Kirk, Ye there, humanized people to get
Speaker 3: our point across.
Speaker 4: But and now look that's good.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna write that down.
Speaker 2: We dehumanize to get our point across.
Speaker 3: That is true, right, And then look, Susan McMahon went
Speaker 3: into defense mode, as you might imagine, when she saw
Speaker 3: all of this incoming from Republican leaders and certainly folks
Speaker 3: hit there on campus who represented Charlie Kirk and his ideas,
Speaker 3: But this is what she had to say. This was
Speaker 3: a statement released by her camp. Sharon unequivocally condemned the
Speaker 3: murder of Charlie Kirk, repeatedly and publicly, calling his death
Speaker 3: a tragedy and stressing that public debate must never be
Speaker 3: met with violence. Sharon's goal is to unpack what is
Speaker 3: happening in society and help people understand how government works.
Speaker 3: That spirit is reflected in her work bringing together voices
Speaker 3: from across the aisle, in closed door conversations with her
Speaker 3: book club community, from Amy Cony Barrett to Kamala Harris,
Speaker 3: and in interviews with Utah Governor Spencer Cox and Nikki Haley,
Speaker 3: to foster the kind of dialogue and perspective democracy depends on.
Speaker 3: She believes what we need most is more bridge building
Speaker 3: and more people willing to show up for one another.
Speaker 4: So that's her message, that's her mantra.
Speaker 3: That's what she claims she wanted to speak about in
Speaker 3: her commencement address, which all sounds wonderful. Unfortunately, those comments
Speaker 3: she or those posts she put out on her social media,
Speaker 3: we're just too tall of a mountain for her to overcome.
Speaker 4: And look, she deleted them, so that might say something
Speaker 4: to think about that.
Speaker 3: If you've ever had to delete a post, maybe that's
Speaker 3: kind of the aha moment when you recognize you shouldn't
Speaker 3: have posted it in the first place. And just by
Speaker 3: the mere fact that she did delete them kind of
Speaker 3: means she didn't stand by them, which I think says
Speaker 3: a lot.
Speaker 2: Oh, maybe she was trying to get ahead of this
Speaker 2: and say make sure this was not gonna be a problem,
Speaker 2: just in case.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know Rhodes, but it's too bad missed opportunity.
Speaker 2: And even her tone and wasn't necessarily defiant, it was
Speaker 2: the right tone. It's kind of how she goes about
Speaker 2: I'm not that familiar with her, but all I've seen
Speaker 2: and read and that's usually her tone of reconciliation. But
Speaker 2: still she has a message, she has a point, and
Speaker 2: she stands by it and she makes it but still
Speaker 2: is like kind of an openness in conversation and ideas,
Speaker 2: which is cool.
Speaker 1: I might look this lady up now and check her out.
Speaker 3: She seems like a wonderful person. And again, her her
Speaker 3: posts weren't and everything she said was true. She did
Speaker 3: not applaud in any way the assassination or any violence
Speaker 3: towards anyone, and that certainly doesn't seem to be her
Speaker 3: mo at all, but just by the mere fact that
Speaker 3: her presence would upset enough of the student body, I
Speaker 3: don't know. Do you think the university made the right
Speaker 3: call ultimately and reversing its initial decision.
Speaker 2: Look, if they have a security at this campus is everything.
Speaker 2: If there is a hint, then this was the right move.
Speaker 4: I agree.
Speaker 3: I agree because obviously it's not just the threat of
Speaker 3: violence or any sort of security concern on any campus.
Speaker 3: This is the campus where Charlie Kirk was assassinated, so
Speaker 3: that absolutely makes sense. But again, I don't know what
Speaker 3: it's going to be like on their graduation to not
Speaker 3: have a commencement speaker.
Speaker 4: But this I'm sure will be talked about for some time.
Speaker 3: But I'm sure better decisions and maybe more thoughtful decisions
Speaker 3: will be made in the future when it comes to
Speaker 3: who they choose to address their student body at graduation.
Speaker 3: But with that, everyone, thank you so much for listening
Speaker 3: to us. We always appreciate you. I mean me Robach
Speaker 3: alongside TJ. Holmes We will talk to you soon.