1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: They were to the point where they had to do 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: it or not do it, so do I did do 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 2: it or die and the person died. 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 14 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: unblush details behind their stories. One of the most famous 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: crimes in American history was the murder of fourteen year 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: old Bobby Frank. Two young men, Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb, 17 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: wanted to plan the perfect murder, but they didn't. Author 18 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: Hal Higden wrote the book on this case called Leopold 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: and Loeb, The Crime of the Century. Now tell me 20 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: how you even got started with this story? What intrigued 21 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: you about it? First? Before we unravel the story a 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: little bit like a mystery, is how I like to 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: do it? 24 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: Well, actually the story was handed to me. Another author 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: had begun work on a book on Leopold and Law, 26 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: but then he blocked and couldn't finish the assignment. So 27 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: pauler Menton, who was then the president of DV Putdams 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: and also Norman Miler's editor, went out looking for another author. 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: And I had written a book about the Civil War 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: and had done a couple of books for but them, 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: so I was out there waiting. My agent asked me 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: if I would like to do the book, and I 33 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: said sure, and put a lot of work into it. 34 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: And the book somehow has had legs as hung around 35 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: all these years. 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's thanks to both your writing and 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: the story, which I still find fascinating. When we get 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: into it, people will find out more about it. But 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: it's still such a mystery about how these two young men, 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: and I didn't realize how young they were, how these 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: two young men came together to come up with this 42 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: idea that to me is so disturbing. So what are 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: the themes that you think you explore when you tell 44 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: the story. 45 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 2: Well, the problem is we got a couple of very 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: right individuals who were sort of almost like gamers. They 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: were looking for something to exploit their intelligence. They had 48 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: gotten together in each other on a trip to charl Boyd, 49 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 2: a summer residence the log family, and started out by 50 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 2: believe it or not, cheating at Bridge. The one thing 51 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 2: wasn't led to another miner's burglary of Love's fraternity house 52 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: at the University of Michigan, and then literally almost a 53 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 2: dare to see if they commit the perfect crime. Their 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: detective fans just like a lot of people, and they're 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: watching now. But they just sort of took it out 56 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: the wrong way, and by the end of the story 57 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: a young boy lay dead. 58 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: Do you know enough about their individual backgrounds for us 59 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: to separate them? And we start with, you know Nathan Leopold, 60 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: and you tell me what you know about him up 61 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: until this happens where he makes this agreement to murder 62 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: a young boy. What do we know about Leopold? 63 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: Here's a bright young boy I chose supposedly of two 64 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 2: hundred twenty almost out of the ballpark, were also a burder. 65 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: He was actually a creative birdwatcher and had written papers 66 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: about the Kirtland warbler, a bird that he apparently discovered 67 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: after a lot of people thought it was extinct. And 68 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 2: he went to the part of School for Boys, which 69 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: is a school of a private school on the south 70 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: side of Chicago and everybody I knew very well myself 71 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: and went on to the University of Michigan with Loeb, 72 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: but Lobe was sort of rushed him off, so Leopold returned, 73 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: went to the University of Chicago, graduated with a degree 74 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 2: when I believe he was like eighteen years old, and 75 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: enrolled in law school. Basically, I was a student at 76 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: the university where I attended briefly, both in high school 77 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: and in graduate school. Loban got together, and that's crime 78 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: to one from there. 79 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: Now, tell me about Richard Loeb, who I don't know 80 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: very much about. What did you find out in your 81 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 1: reporting about his life before he encounters Nathan Leopold. 82 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: Well, but again was bright, not quite as bright, but 83 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty one hundred and sixty, I believe, 84 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: I to you, which is I can't even begin to imagine. 85 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: Don't ask me my ito. He was going in high school, 86 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: he went to the Laboratory School of Chicago what we 87 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: called you High back when, and the same school that 88 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: I had gone to and graduated from. So there have 89 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 2: been a lot of comparisons. Why it made it very 90 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: easy meat for write about the boy in the neighborhood 91 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: and again very very bright, but pretty much so Briat, 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: who was a super social Well there I get sob 93 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 2: i ate to use the real word for what he was, 94 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: went on to the Unis Michigan. They had actually known 95 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 2: Leopold when they were both about fifteen, but it didn't 96 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: pay much attend to Leopold that Michigan, which caused Leopold 97 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: to head back to Chicago. 98 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: So they know each other. What do you think drew 99 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: them to each other? Was it this extreme intelligence? Did 100 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: they did you feel like they had very similar personalities 101 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: and they sort of fed off each other. Because I 102 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: often wonder about killers who work in pairs and what 103 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: connects them, what drives them to stay together, and if 104 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: they would even have done this if they were just 105 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: working as individuals. 106 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: Well, they were geniuses, they were lovers. Their families were wealthy, 107 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 2: which led to trying to collect a ransom for a 108 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: kidnapping part of the plot that they did and more 109 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: or less was can I do this? Can you do that? 110 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 2: And dary each other over a period of two three 111 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: four months coming up with the plot, which itself was 112 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: was the fun that they found out the fund where 113 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: they decided they were going to kidnap a young boy, 114 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: kill him, try to collect a ransom money from the parents, 115 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: and it was just sort of the evil act. 116 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: Well, let's start with the boy who turns out to 117 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: be our victim, who is a boy named Bobby Franks. 118 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: He's fourteen years old. Before we talk about what happens 119 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: to him, tell me what we know about Bobby Franks 120 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: and his family and what kind of kid he is. 121 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: Well, like the Leopold and the Lot families, the family 122 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: was wealthy kind of wood back at that time. Who's 123 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: the resident leader would be Barack Obama was a very 124 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: wealthy neighborhood. It's where the wealthy people landed once they 125 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: had left the areas further north downtown and before they 126 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: migrated to the suburb Island Park, So that brought them together. 127 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: And again to me, it was a very very familiar 128 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: neighborhood too, because I didn't live in the Kenwood area. 129 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: I lived in another area on the south Stude of 130 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: Chicago South Shore, but I was very familiar with the 131 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: neighborhood because I went to school there for several years. 132 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: So that threw them together, and they both started there 133 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 2: each other before you knew it, the time of the 134 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 2: century had begun. 135 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: What do you think their dynamic was. I mean, you 136 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: said that they were lovers. I'm assuming number one, this 137 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: is secret. This is nineteen twenty four, so they're not 138 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: exposing this, Am I assuming correctly that this was secret 139 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: or relationship between them? 140 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: You are assuming very very correctly. This was something that 141 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: would not today, you know, would not be thought much 142 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: off the fact that there might be to high school 143 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 2: college a students who were almo sexual back then, who 144 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: was unheard of, and so it was not something they 145 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: bragged about. 146 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: So they are making plans and they want to commit 147 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: essentially the perfect crime. Is the money important to them, 148 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: the ransom money, or is it just literally the challenge 149 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: can we get away with it? And the excitement of 150 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: all of that. 151 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, the money was totally inconsequential. I mean, if 152 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: either of them had wanted the twenty thousand dollars to 153 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: maybe buy a new car or do something else prediculous. 154 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: The parents would have made that money available to them, 155 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: so it certainly was not money. Money was started the 156 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: score that would have proved that they had succeeded in 157 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: their crime. And they've been able to make it the 158 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: perfect crime and make fools of everybody in the city 159 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: of Chicago or the policeman, the state's attorneys, and the 160 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: achieve of fame that only the two of them knew about. 161 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: It would be their little secret. 162 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: Tell me about what happens, step by step with as 163 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: much detail as you can think of. How does this start? 164 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: They've planned for several months, How do they decide when 165 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: this is going to happen? And then what happens? 166 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: Well, the two of us got together and had all 167 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 2: of their plans going. They had discovered how one could 168 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: run a car. They had a secret location in one 169 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: of the Chicago hotels, so they could check into the 170 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: hotel and establish an identity so if they went into 171 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: a rental tar place, they could use that identity to 172 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: rent a car, so they wouldn't have to use either 173 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: of their car. This is again the devising things like this. 174 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: Going into a hardware store around Fortieth Street in Chicago 175 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: and buying a shizzle that they would wrap and turn 176 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: into a budge and so they could strike of the victim. 177 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: These were all the games that they were playing, identifying 178 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: another drug store on sixty third Street in Chicago where 179 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: there was a couple of telephone they had telephone booths 180 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: back in that era, and they could call the victim 181 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: mister Franks, actually the victim father who hadn't even an 182 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: identified it not and get him through a game literally 183 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: where they would guide him to taking the money ransom 184 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: money and getting it to them where nobody would be 185 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: able to follow his movements. So again, these game was 186 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 2: a game. It was a game that's sort of like 187 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: the game that the kids doing now. And so eventually 188 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 2: the plot went and they were to the point where 189 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: they had to do it or not do it. They 190 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 2: were realterally the point where if they hadn't found the 191 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: boy within the next thirty minutes, they would have stopped 192 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 2: and Leopold would go off to Europe on vacation, which 193 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: was part of his plan. So sort of they didn't 194 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 2: do it or die, and the person died in. 195 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: The age, how did they find Bobby Franks. They didn't 196 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: know him beforehand, right. 197 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: Well, actually no, they did. It was a small neighborhood. 198 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: Everybody knew everybody else, and so Leopold and low would 199 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: definitely have known Bobby Frank's effect. I think Bobby France 200 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: sometimes even played tennis on the Loew's father's tennis sports 201 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: so it was a familiar person. Although it really didn't 202 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: matter because they had been scouting out various victims. They 203 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: had their rental tower and they were driving around the 204 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: Harvard School where a baseball game was going on, and 205 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: Bobby Franks was serving as the umpire to take part 206 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: of the game, and he started walking home. They looked 207 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: at a couple of other boys in and around the 208 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 2: neighborhood that they saw who they spotted at first, but 209 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: when they turned the car around to go get him, 210 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: he had disappeared. So there was a matter of total 211 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: chance that Bobby Franks would be walking down the street 212 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: down to his parents' home and Leopold and Loba saw him, 213 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: went past him, turned around, came back. Lob I believe 214 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 2: it was who rolled down the window and shouted for 215 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: Bobby to ask him, Hey, would you like a ride home? 216 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: And it would have been normal for Bobby to just 217 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: jump in the car, because Lowe was in quotes from 218 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: the neighborhood. So Bobby Franks got into the front seat 219 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: with one of the murderers driving, the other murder in 220 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: the back seat. And I'm not using a name because 221 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: even today we don't know who is the actual person 222 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: who hit Bobby Franks and committed the crime. So by 223 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: that time it was quickly, even almost before they had 224 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: gotten down to the next block, the blow was struck, 225 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: and they drove out to an area that if you've 226 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: ever driven into Chicago on the Skyway, there's a place 227 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 2: Wolf Lake on both sides of the road. Wasn't there 228 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: back then in nineteen twenty four, but within a quarter 229 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: mile or so the Skyway, the lakes merged and there's 230 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: a railroad tracks back there. So all this had been 231 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: scanned in advance, and there was a matter just dragging 232 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: about the dead body by now and stuffing him into 233 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: a culvert and expecting that maybe the body would never 234 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: be found, or at least not found for days or 235 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: weeks or when it's probably even years. 236 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: For people who don't know, just quickly explain what a 237 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: culvert is and why I have read so many stories 238 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: about bodies being hidden in culverts. 239 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: And so basically it would be a long round two 240 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: the two that would allow the water to move from 241 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: Wolf Lake through the tube and into the next body 242 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: of water, which ironically was about a half life away 243 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: for where one of my cousins lived, and so I 244 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: knew the area very well. Leopald knew the area very 245 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: well because he was a burder and usually once a 246 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: week he would take students from the laboratory school again 247 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: my high school, take them burning out to the lake, 248 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 2: and that was part of what he did. And he 249 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: knew in the area very very very familiar, and that 250 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: was part of their kidnap plot. 251 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: So did you get the impression. I know that we've 252 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: we've already said that they are really focused on pulling 253 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: off the perfect crime, and we sort of just said 254 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: it was kind of one hit from one of them, 255 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: we don't know who, and that's it. Did you get 256 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: the impression there was any sort of gratification from either 257 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: of them around the actual murder, not the planning or 258 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: the cover up, but the actual Did they get a 259 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: little bit of a thrill out of that? 260 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it was the planning. Basically, they were 261 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: all detective stories. You know, this is back in the 262 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: area of Pulp six, and they had all sorts of 263 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: publications basically or into that detective genre, if you might, 264 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: and that was part of their their scheme would be 265 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: to create a crime then would be the equal of 266 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 2: the crimes that they read about, and in some respects 267 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 2: they even mimic the crimes of I'm not a mistake. 268 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 2: In the ransom note was a note that they had 269 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: plagiarized from one of their detective magazine. So there's nothing 270 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: about these two to light. 271 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: So is this broad daylight? He's walking home after refereeing 272 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: this baseball game, right, I mean, is this at dusk 273 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: or what time of day is this? It seems very 274 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: brazen to me. 275 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it certainly must have been light. I mean, 276 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: this is what five point thirty in the afternoon, it 277 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: is still would have been very much daylight. And as 278 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: a matter of fact, if I remember correctly, Leopold the 279 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: lobe even claused with the dead body in the tront 280 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: until it got dark so that they could go and 281 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: not be observed while they were about what they were doing. Actually, 282 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: as I said, you know, Leopold was a burner. He 283 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: was very familiar with the area. He probably realized that 284 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: they're could be other birds there. At the same time, 285 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: they didn't want to blow their their crime that way, 286 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 2: so they waited until it was dark and went in 287 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: there with the body and that we as we dis 288 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: discussed in the culvert and uh, and then they headed 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 2: back home to continue the crime. The following day. 290 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: When does Bobby Franks' his family become alarmed when he 291 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: doesn't show up for dinner. 292 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: I'm assuming, yeah, there wereried he's not there, and they 293 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 2: make a few phone calls to see if they can 294 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: find out where they were, and they discovered that he 295 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 2: was seen at the baseball game, and everybody suddenly loses 296 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 2: his track home he so basically Body Franks disappear is 297 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: only to be discovered the following day. And at that time, 298 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: the mister Franks was with his attorney and they were 299 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: wondering what they should do. They didn't know whether they 300 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 2: should call the police or not. And suddenly they get 301 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: a phone call and a person identifies himself by a 302 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 2: fictitious name, and he tells mister Frank's attorney it's asked 303 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 2: to speak to Body Frank's father tells him that they 304 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 2: had body he is safe, although that was a lie, 305 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 2: and that they would return him safely if they would 306 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: pay twenty five thousand dollars, I believe, And so the 307 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: crime was continued, and they had this all plotted out 308 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: where they would take mister Frank's almost on a scavenger hunt, 309 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: where they would ask him to go to a drug 310 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: store on the sixty third Street, tell him to go 311 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 2: down to the only central station at twelfth Street, get 312 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 2: on a nice sea train I see as we called 313 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: it back then, and get on the back of the train, 314 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: and when the train came past sixty fifth or one 315 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 2: of the streets near there, to throw the ransom money 316 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 2: out the window or off the back of the train, 317 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: and if the money were collected that way, then Bobby 318 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: Franks would be returned unarmed. But the pot began to 319 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: unravel because Leopold Or told mister Franks where the drug 320 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: store was that he was supposed to go, and I 321 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: believe the attorney was sitting in on the phone call 322 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: as well, and they suddenly realized they had forgotten the 323 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: name of the drug store or work it was they 324 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: were going. So they were trapped because there was no 325 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 2: way that they could send Bobby Franks's father on the 326 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: next leg of the scavenger hunt, so the crime was 327 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: really sort of busted at that point, and eventually the 328 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 2: body was discovered within hours rather not within days or weeks. 329 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 1: So Bobby Franks goes missing late afternoon, early evening, his 330 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: father is alarmed. Leopold and Loebe are realistically, in your opinion, 331 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: feeling like confident that this body is not going to 332 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: be found anytime soon. Would putting a body in that culvert, 333 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: would that realistically have been out of sight for a while? 334 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: Were they right? 335 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, to a certain point, true, But the problem was 336 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: that the colvert wasn't that big, so when they tried 337 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: to stuff the body in, the legs were stating out. 338 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: But you know, they didn't think anybody was going to 339 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: because this is an obscure place, fire from fire from anything. 340 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 2: You know. Now we have the sky away and the 341 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: cars whizzing by to get tour from Chicago. Back then, 342 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: and it was basically a near wilderness with only the 343 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: burdeners really and the fishermen to populate the area. So 344 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: they were trying to lure mister Franks into going to 345 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: the drug store, taking him to the icy station, having 346 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: him throw the money out and they would obscure them 347 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: with the money, which is their score. You know, that's 348 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: how they kicked the three point field goal, got the money. 349 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: But if money didn't really mean anything to accept the 350 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: score that they were able to achieve. 351 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So a couple of things. One just to be clear, 352 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: mister Frank's got this phone call before Bobby's body was discovered. 353 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: Is that right? 354 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: I believe that's through. 355 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: Yes, How much are they asking for again? 356 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 2: I believe it was twenty four thousand dollars that they 357 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 2: were trying to get, and you know that's so in 358 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: money for somebody as wealthy as the people they are 359 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 2: dealing with. 360 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: So you know they snatch him in daylight. They are 361 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: picking someone who has it sounds like a family that 362 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: would be very alarmed if he doesn't show up at home, 363 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: and they have not taken the time to figure out 364 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: that this kid's body is not going to fit correctly 365 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: in the culvert that they are hoping is going to 366 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: cover up the body for a long enough time where 367 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: they can achieve getting this ransom money. Does this to 368 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: you prove that you can be incredibly BookSmart or naturally 369 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: intelligent and not be at all streets smart or logical 370 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: when you're pulling off something like this. 371 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: Exactly, And continuing the story, what happens is the sun 372 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: comes up the next morning. One of the workers in 373 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: the ice factory back then people sold chunks of ice 374 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: was wandering home from his job and cutting across the 375 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 2: area wolf Lake and happens to glance down into the 376 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 2: connecting canal and goes from one leg to the other 377 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 2: and sees what it appears to be a footstep out, 378 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: goes down there, yanks the body out of the culvert, 379 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: realizes that the individual is dead. It does not know 380 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 2: what to do, but it goes up to put the 381 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 2: culvert where a railroad track is now a bike path 382 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: by the way, goes over the colvert, and at that 383 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 2: time several railroad workers in a handcart are tunning the 384 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: lawn the track. He finds them down, tells them that 385 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 2: there's dead boy there. And what they do is they 386 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: put the body of Boddy Franks on the railroad card 387 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: and then they card him to the next intersection and 388 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: take him in I believe, to a funeral parlor nearby 389 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: and call the police. And at that time the Franks 390 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: have been revealed themselves to the police. They were slow 391 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 2: in doing so because they were afraid that that would 392 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: blow it. Leopold figured, well, there was a full proof scheme, 393 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: so they didn't have any hesitation about getting identified or 394 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: they were wrong. 395 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so where are we in the stage of this 396 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: supposed kidnapping. Bobby Frank's father now realizes that he's dead, 397 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: and what do investigators say? We need follow through on 398 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: this because the killers don't know that we know that 399 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: Bobby Franks is dead. They're trying to extort money out 400 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: of you. Is that sort of what happens going forward? 401 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: They want to continue with the ruse so that they 402 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: can catch these guys. 403 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, what pretty much happened is that the news has 404 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: spread among the police that there's a body been found 405 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 2: out there. So we have a missing person and a 406 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: dead body. Pretty easy to put them together. So the 407 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: Frank's family sent one of the uncles out to the 408 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: funeral home to make an identification of the body. So 409 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: he called back and said, yes, it's Bobby. So at 410 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: that point the money collection was not going to happen. Now, 411 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: what I forgot to tell you for a few minutes 412 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 2: is while all these people were still at wolf Like, 413 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: they noticed down on the ground for a pair of glasses, 414 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: so didn't think too much about the time. But the 415 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,479 Speaker 2: worker picked up pair of glasses put in the pocket 416 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 2: because he thought, well, maybe he might need them at 417 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 2: some time. And when they finally did get the police 418 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: did come, he admitted that he had a pair of glasses, 419 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 2: and it was realizing that it might have been the 420 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: glasses that belonged to the killer. So this would be 421 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: one of the first little little links of evidence that 422 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: would bring eventually, about ten days later, the police to 423 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: Nathan Leopold's door. 424 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: Now let's talk about the glasses, because these were not 425 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: your standard present day CBS glasses. These were special glasses, 426 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: right right. 427 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 2: You know, when I go to CBS, I pay fourteen 428 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: dollars and ninety five cents for a pair of glasses. 429 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 2: But these are a somewhat unique pair of glasses that 430 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 2: had a unique ends on the glasses. And it turns 431 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: out that Olmer Cole, the glass company that was still 432 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 2: around when I was growing up with the saw sat 433 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: at Chicago, had records all the glasses must have been 434 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: high style glasses that they sold, and there were only 435 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: three people in the city of Chicago who apparently had 436 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 2: glasses similar that that had this special little shape that 437 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: put this part of the eye to the real glasses. 438 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: So they were identify the three people, one of which 439 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 2: was Nathan Leopold. The other two people, I won't don't 440 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: want to say they had iron clad alibiz but I 441 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: think one of those even off on a trip. But 442 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: they really pretty much was down to the fact that 443 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 2: the glasses didn't come from Leopold christ There was no 444 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: proof that they disiplicated him as a murderer because he 445 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 2: showed up in that area of the city of Chicago 446 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: all the time with his murder. He was able to 447 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 2: say that, oh, he had a pair of glasses, and 448 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 2: he fell down while he was out there in the area, 449 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: and the glasses must have filled out of his pocket. 450 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 2: And he didn't realize this. And this was a week ago, 451 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 2: and I had realized that the glasses had been lost, 452 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: and so the state's attorney, attorney Crow, I asked them, well, here, 453 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: fall down and see if the glasses come out. So 454 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: Leopold fell down on the ground and the glasses remained 455 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 2: in the pocket. And then he tried a second time 456 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: for the third time, the glasses didn't come out, and 457 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: so that seemingly hit it on gim. Ironically, when I 458 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 2: was going out examining the area once, I had a 459 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: pair of glasses in my pocket. I stuck them into 460 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: the pocket of whatever it was I had on at 461 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: that time, and I was out running to go from 462 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: the murder area to where I'd parked my car, and 463 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: it happened to trip, fell down into the mud, got 464 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: muddle all over me, and my glasses fell up. I 465 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: had to go back to retrieve them afore as they 466 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: were footsteps all over the place. So basically, you know, 467 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: they weren't realizing all of the things, the crazy things 468 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: that can happen. And about a quarter century or so ago, 469 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: the Chicago Historical Society had an exhibit about the Leopold 470 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: and Low case with all the pictures and photographs and 471 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: other items from the case, and one of the items 472 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: that they still had it was in state's evidence, was 473 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: the original pair of glasses sitting on all of Historical Society. 474 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if the glasses have survived because theoretically, 475 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: mostly exposed to freyer, they might have crumbled. But there 476 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: were many, so many things that Leopold and Lowe could 477 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: not imagine we're liable to happen, and by that time 478 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: the police would come knocking on their door. 479 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: Were those glasses the main thing that led them to 480 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: at least Nathan Leopold or was there anything else that 481 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: pointed directly at at least him to have them show 482 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: up at his door. 483 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think it was mostly the glasses that, yeah, 484 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: did bring the police to his door. But as we 485 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: pointed out, they were easy to come up with the 486 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: alibi he could have been in that area and the 487 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: glasses regardless, so they wouldn't fall out at the status 488 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: Hurry's office. But what happened later was that they went 489 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: to so Fur, who drove Leopold's logo around, and it 490 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: turned out that we're talking to the Leopolds. So Fur 491 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: and he determined the fact that the boys did not 492 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: have their regular car that day, that there was a 493 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 2: strange car that they were driving, the rental car that 494 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 2: they'd gotten, so that the car would not have been identified. 495 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: And so that was sort of the next link that 496 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: led them to the murderer, and so bit by bit, 497 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: their beautiful, beautiful plant started falling apart, so that after 498 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: a good several hours of interrogation by the police, by 499 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: these state's attorney, the two murderers confessed. 500 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got these two guys, who I'm assuming 501 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: are very surprised. What are their confessions like when they 502 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: talked to the police, and do we think they were 503 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: coerced at all? Or were they just presented with his 504 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: evidence and they just said, okay, we give up. 505 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 2: Pretty much, they gave up. And again, this was before 506 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: the Miranda Act, which would have caused Clarence Narrow to 507 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: stow up about half a day earlier than he did 508 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: and would have told the boys to stop talking. That 509 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: may or may not have prevented them from being identified 510 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 2: as the murderers. They eventually confessed, and yeahter one person confessed, 511 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: and they walked next door to the separate room where 512 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 2: the other one was being held and revealed the fact 513 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: that Loan, I believe, confessed and here's what he said 514 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: about al you did this and I did that. And 515 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: Leopold then to the similar confess that say, well, there's 516 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: one thing that Low told Roan. He tried to say 517 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 2: that I killed Bobby Franks, but actually it was he 518 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: who wielded the camera. He was in the back seat. 519 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: I was driving the car, and he was the one 520 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: who killed Bobby Franks. And of course the other one 521 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: will say pretty much the same thing. And to this 522 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: day we don't know for sure that Leopold was the 523 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: blow or Low was a blow. Of course, it didn't 524 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: make any different They were both guilty the under the law. 525 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: But that's sort of one of the mysteries of the 526 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: case that had remained unsolved and will remain unsolved forever. 527 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: So despite their relationship, their you know, physical relationship, they 528 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: ended up ultimately turning on each other. Is that right, 529 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: That's true. 530 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 2: And so basically they were against each other. But of 531 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: course they couldn't avoid each other because within a short 532 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: time they were going to be brought to the court 533 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: and sitting next to each other while all the evidence 534 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: was laid out. They couldn't really avoid each other, so 535 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 2: they started having mended of fences. It's so to speak, 536 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:04,719 Speaker 2: you know. 537 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: We just interviewed an author who was telling a much 538 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: more contemporary story set in Kentucky, where you have two 539 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: people who are tried for murder. We don't know who 540 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: the killer is. We just know these are two people 541 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: who killed someone else. They are tried separately, and it 542 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: sounds like the first one was convicted and so the 543 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: second one was able to say, well, you've already convicted 544 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: this guy. I'm not the killer. We only know one 545 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: person did it. Did they choose to try them together 546 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: because of that? 547 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: I suspect the police wanted to try them together in 548 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: a single setting. It's a lot easier rather than having 549 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: fourteen defendants and trying him in fourteen cases. What's just 550 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: happening today, so that they're basically were Roddy leafart together 551 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: and they were pretty much like joined at the hips 552 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 2: for all the rest of their life. 553 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: So while they were on trial, they were in the 554 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: same jail or the same jail cell. 555 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: I believe they're in the same jail. I don't know 556 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: if they were in the same cell, although it wouldn't 557 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: surprise me to Whatever they wanted is pretty much they've got. 558 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 2: You know, you're talking about wealthy people who all they 559 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: needed to do would be to ask their father for money, 560 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,439 Speaker 2: for which they would buy the favors that they could 561 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: better get better meals sent to the jail. They could 562 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: hand out money to fellow tonics for protect us necessary. 563 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: So money was buying everything at this case, including money buying, 564 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 2: the fameals samous attorney who supposedly and underline that supposedly 565 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: was going to get a million dollars for the defense. 566 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: Well, I want to hear about reactions, and so I 567 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: want to start with the reaction of Loban Leopold's families. 568 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: Were they shocked? Did they think that this was not possible? 569 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: They so obviously supported him, he said. 570 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, they had to, And basically they didn't want to 571 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: turn their backs on and if I'm not mistake in, 572 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: Love's mother still didn't want to believe the fact that 573 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: her son could have been a killer. Pretty much she 574 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 2: left town, went up to Charldboy and hung out there 575 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: during the case, just as frankst although I also was 576 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 2: basically distraught the fact that they had lost the boy, 577 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 2: but distraught possibly also because the story of his murder 578 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 2: was being broadcast day after day after day after day 579 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: by the heart of journalists who crammed into the card room. 580 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: He was the thing that everybody's totally focused on. 581 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: How were Leopold and loebe framed in the media, good looking, 582 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: wealthy gay trying to pull off the perfect murder? Is 583 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: that what the combination was that enthrolled the media, Well. 584 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: Pretty much. They were trying to be examined as much 585 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: as they could, So there are so many strings that 586 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: you could attach the story to. Particular when they got 587 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 2: the alienists, the psychiatrists involved, and basically the information was 588 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 2: being fed the trial, but the reporters were taking reporting 589 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 2: it outside the trial. So basically they were pretty much 590 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: reported as as evil monsters, and that's what the public 591 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 2: wanted to hear. 592 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: Now, you said earlier you talked about red flags with 593 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: the alienists who took the stand after examining both of 594 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: these young men, tell me what they found. What were 595 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: their determination of what was wrong with them? I don't 596 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: know if there's any easier way to say it, why 597 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,919 Speaker 1: they would do this? What did the alienists say? 598 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking the alienists, I'm not sure any of 599 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 2: them regat the story. Right. Leopold and Love literally the 600 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 2: loved being the center of attention. They loved being interviewed 601 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 2: by the alienists and revealing all their secrets, their evil things. 602 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: The fact that there was a governess who would take 603 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: care of Leopold when he was young, and maybe the 604 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: governess was part of the reason that he had turned 605 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 2: out the way he did. So everybody had a theory. 606 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 2: There were drawings that would appear in the paper of 607 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 2: the skulls of the boys, of the circle around the 608 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 2: brain area. I asked whether there was some different type 609 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: of brain that would have malfunctionally caused them to do 610 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 2: these evil things. So there was plenty of juicy information 611 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: for the ailieness on both sides to explore. Try to explore, 612 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: try to understand what the pair were doing. 613 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: So were they going for the nsanity defense in this 614 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: case both of them? 615 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Attorney Crow wanted them to hang. He was looking 616 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: for a hanging jury. Of course, it was a jury 617 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 2: of one because Darrow having pleaded the two of them guilty, 618 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 2: there was no need to have a jury. The question 619 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 2: was was the guilt enough so that they could be 620 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 2: brought to justice? 621 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: And on the next Okay, so you've intrigued me a 622 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: little bit with this story of the governess. And you said, 623 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: this was Richard Loeb's governess, and is the insinuation that 624 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: she was abusive in some way? 625 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 2: Well that's the theory. You know, everybody came up with 626 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 2: the coca theory. So they were all sorts of witnesses 627 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: or people who were telling their side of the story, 628 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 2: a couple of shady ladies who supposedly wanted to prove 629 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 2: the yellow Richard Lowe and I were out dancing that 630 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: day rather than he wasn't off of anything. So there 631 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 2: was sort of a circus going through at the card 632 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 2: room at that time, and the reporters sort of eagerly 633 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: trying to come up with new angles to fill their 634 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 2: story out of CNN was not around at that time, 635 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: but typically what one might expect to get from the 636 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: broadcast networks we have today to the paper networks we 637 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 2: had back in the nineteen twenty four. So some of 638 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 2: the information that it was sort of salacious and not 639 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: fit for anybody to hear, particularly if any women were 640 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 2: in the card room at that time. So the judge 641 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 2: would bring the attorneys up to talk to them, and 642 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: they would whisper very closely, and the reporters would lean 643 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 2: forward trying to find out what was being said so 644 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 2: they could report it to their riatas the next day. 645 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 2: It was just literally a fascinating story that one could 646 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 2: not invent. 647 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: Were either of these young men at all phased by this? 648 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: Were they not scared that they were going to end 649 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: up either at the gallows or spending the rest of 650 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: their lives in prison. Or did they seem sort of 651 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: emboldened in a way after they were caught and they confessed. 652 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: Well, I think they were probably bold about it. In 653 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,959 Speaker 2: otherwise they felt they're guilty and they're famous, and oh boy, 654 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 2: we're going to have Clarence Darrow. So I think there 655 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 2: was sort of a sense of their status that their 656 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 2: parents said them the best lawyer in the world. So 657 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 2: they were sort of into the trials fascinated by it, 658 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 2: probably blanked out on the fact that I just found 659 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 2: guilty that they might just set away either for life 660 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 2: in prison or for death in prison. 661 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 1: So ultimately they had confessed and their attorney had plugged 662 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: guilty on their behalf, and this was a discussion about 663 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,720 Speaker 1: whether or not with the judge making a decision about 664 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: the penalty phase and what was their best hope that 665 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: they were going to spend life in prison or was 666 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: there any sense that their attorney had said, I might 667 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: be able to get you less than that, maybe twenty 668 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: years at the most. 669 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I doubt if there was any hope. I was saying, 670 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 2: I've been discovery such a anus crime. It sort of 671 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 2: like a crime without a votive as it was. You know, 672 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: they were given in life plus ninety nine years. 673 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: How did the public react to that? So they were 674 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: not hanged, which, as I bet the media was demanding. 675 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: Did the public think that this was a miscarriage of 676 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: justice or did this seem like a fair sentence? 677 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? I suspect the public moved on to the next 678 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 2: penous murder. 679 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: Well, I know I believe the way the rest of 680 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: this story goes, but a lot of people might not. 681 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: So they are both sentenced to life in prison, natural 682 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: life in prison, right, and they have very different endings 683 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: both of these men. 684 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Christ life plus ninety nine years meant that they 685 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 2: are never going to get out of prison suppositively. But 686 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: they went down to Jelliet and they were good gamers 687 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 2: of the system. So Richard Lull and Nathan Leopold had 688 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 2: access to that same good guy rule where I went 689 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 2: in and saw the two mass murderers. They pretty much 690 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,280 Speaker 2: figured out that as he played around and gained the system, 691 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 2: you could have comfort. So Chars Leopold was able to 692 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 2: finance whatever extra better meals that he got in prison 693 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 2: and again also protect him of Chars. What happened? Is that? 694 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 2: Fast forward ten years now Richard Loeb is taking a 695 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: sour and another prisoner comes in with a knife and 696 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: hats and the pieces. He dies. Leopoldo continues on through 697 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 2: the forties, where he gets involved in a research study 698 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 2: for malaria and mostuitos Curry's favor for the various people 699 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 2: who might give him a parole, and he eventually hissed parole, 700 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 2: goes off to Puerto Rico spends the rest of his 701 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 2: life there. 702 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,399 Speaker 1: I mean, how is that even possible? This man who 703 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: planned a murder of a stranger, and is it just forgotten? 704 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: And because he was so pivotal to this research that 705 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: they decided to give him parole. How long was he 706 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: in prison for before he was released. 707 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 2: Until about nineteen seventy or so, So he spent several 708 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 2: decades in prison, but every second year or so he 709 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 2: had the right to appear in front of a parole 710 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 2: board and they would hear in the case. At some 711 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,720 Speaker 2: point for all board said well, it's time he's suffering 712 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 2: that and he seems to be rehabilitated, and we'll let 713 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 2: him go. And so with the content that he basically 714 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 2: pretty much disappears. So Leopold was able to go down 715 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 2: to Puerto Rico, where he got out that job and 716 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 2: not a hospital, and pretty much and the next half 717 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 2: a dozen or so years even got married down there. 718 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 2: But he'd learned how to live with the system down 719 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 2: there as well as he had all through his life. 720 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: Silly questioned, but married to a woman I'm assuming. 721 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 2: Dirty, Yeah, that was their name. I don't think the 722 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 2: fact that he was gay was publicized that much, so 723 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 2: the fact that he would have married a woman was 724 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 2: not that shocking. People would have not given it a 725 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 2: lot of thought. Also, I think that by that time 726 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 2: Leopold and certainly a little bit disappeared off of the 727 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 2: screens of most people living in Chicago. Nathan Leopold, Oh, 728 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 2: wasn't he that guy that murdered that kid? What's he 729 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 2: doing these days? And he's still in Brisidon ninety nine 730 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 2: years that he might make it to age ninety nine, 731 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: but nobody was expected to. So he waves goodbye to Juliet, 732 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 2: and to a certain extent, waves away goodbye to whatever 733 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 2: was happening until somebody in mind by the name of 734 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 2: Meyer Levin writes a book titled Compulsion. It's a work 735 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 2: of fiction where they disguise the names of the people 736 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 2: now became a best seller and they pulls back in 737 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 2: the public side for a while. Didn't like and even 738 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 2: tried to sue the author. Didn't succeed on that, but 739 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 2: the crimeula century hadn't met it down. 740 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: Now I'm going to circle back to something I asked 741 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: you as we're wrapping up this episode. I'm going to 742 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: circle back to the question of taken separately Leopold and 743 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 1: Low if they had never met, do you think anything 744 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: like this would have happened? Or did it take the 745 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: two of them meet and talking about this fantasy for 746 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: that to trigger it? Did they have the do you 747 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: think ability separately to do this on their own? 748 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 2: I can answer that question very easily. No. I think 749 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 2: the two of them coming together was basically like the 750 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 2: atonic bomb, was the spark that set off the explosion? 751 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 2: And had they not come together accidentally, I suppose they 752 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 2: both lived in the same neighborhood, but not really close together. 753 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 2: They went to different schools high schools at that time, 754 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 2: so no, they might not have met. And taking that 755 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,720 Speaker 2: one step further, ABOUDI Frank is if he hung around 756 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 2: the school a little bit longer at the baseball game. 757 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 2: They might not have spotted him five point thirty six 758 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 2: o'clock getting dark. They probably would have just gone home, 759 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 2: and not having succeeded in their game, they probably would 760 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 2: have moved on for the rest of their lives. So, yeah, 761 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 2: you're exactly right. Yeah, you nailed it right on the head. 762 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,280 Speaker 1: So what is the lesson that we've learned here? Because 763 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: the most frustrating stories, to me, the most frustrating killers 764 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,800 Speaker 1: to understand, would be the Leopold and Lobe, which I 765 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,800 Speaker 1: don't run into very often. It just doesn't make any sense. 766 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 1: I even understand serial killers in their motivations. I understand money, 767 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: I understand greed, sex, you know, sexual depravity, the need 768 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: for control, But this just seems so randomized. Is that 769 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: why we're fascinated with this case? 770 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also understand somebody walking into a school 771 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 2: with a repeater gun and killing a couple of dozen people, 772 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 2: not just one person. So we live in an evil world. 773 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: So this last question, what is the legacy which is 774 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: probably not the right word for Leopold and Lobe, the 775 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: memory of the stinch of what they've left behind. What 776 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: is that in just a couple of sentences, what do 777 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:54,359 Speaker 1: we learn from it. 778 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we learned that we're probably never safe. I think 779 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,399 Speaker 2: this is a thing that scares there and a lot 780 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 2: of mothers on the South Side of Chicago, the fact 781 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 2: that it could have been there boy walking down the 782 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 2: street and happen to be the victim. I think that's 783 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,720 Speaker 2: the thing that we try to do the best we can. 784 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 2: We fasten our seat belts and do all the good 785 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 2: things that we learned to do on the internet. But 786 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 2: still there is no excuse for what happens, and no 787 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 2: excuse for Leopold and Low Committee the utterly de pray 788 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 2: crime that they did commit. 789 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 790 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 791 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlok and Don't Forget There are 792 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More 793 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 794 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 795 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis 796 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,320 Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode 797 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, 798 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga, Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen 799 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at 800 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,240 Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.