WEBVTT - What’s the Matter With Daddy? 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:12.320 It's July fourth, nineteen ten Reno, Nevada. More than sixteen 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:17.079 thousand fans pack into a wooden arena, eyes fixed on 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.599 the boxing match below them. Everyone is focused on the 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.360 two men in the ring. They've been at it for 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.680 nearly an hour, and cracks, at least in one of 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:36.080 them are starting to show. In one corner is Jack Johnson, 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.800 the raining heavyweight champion of the world and the first 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.440 black man to ever hold that title. In the other 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.760 corner is Jim Jeffries, a two hundred and twenty pounds 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.960 former champion who'd come out of retirement strictly for this 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:56.080 to take that title away. Jeffries has been nicknamed the 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.200 Great White Hope, and this match, it's billed as the 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:05.000 fight of the century. The crowd, which is almost all white, 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.200 is at full throated volume and clearly in support of Jeffries, 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.000 as are the bookies. No one seemed to consider that 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.200 a young black man at the height of his abilities 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.679 and strength, the best in the world, could beat a 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.760 man who had to lose fifty pounds to get in 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.839 shape in time for the match. No one, of course, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:32.320 except for Jack Johnson himself. He is calm, confident, He 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:37.160 is ready. Nothing Jeffries does bases him. He is just 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:42.679 waiting for the right moment. And then it comes. The 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.880 fifteenth round. Jack Johnson throws a flurry of punches. They 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:51.240 catch Jeffries and send him to the match. It's the 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.480 first time Jeffreys has ever been knocked down in his 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.320 entire career. The crowd is shocked. They shout at the 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.560 Great White Hope to get back up. He manages to 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:08.280 stumble to his feet, but Johnson hits Jeffreys again. The 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.240 blow knocks Jeffrey's back and he falls out of the ring. 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.639 A fan rushes to him pushes him up, but Jack 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.880 Johnson is ready. He charges and lands another hard right. 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.160 Jeffrey stumbles for the third time and goes down. The 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.320 match is called before Johnson can deliver a knockout, saving 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:34.519 the Great White Hope from the ultimate embarrassment. Jack Johnson, 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.119 a black man, has won the fight of the century 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.000 in a time when white America can barely recognize the 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:47.280 humanity of black people. He was unequivocally the best in 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:52.639 the world. He was also rich. He earned over sixty 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.440 five thousand dollars from the fight, more than two million 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:01.920 dollars today and white America, it wasn't happy. In the 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:06.600 hours that followed the fight, millions of white Americans seethed. 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:08.280 They took to the. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:13.919 Streets, They rioted, They set buildings ablaze, and terrorized black 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:18.520 neighborhoods across the country in payback for Jack Johnson's victory 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:23.440 in the ring. Jack Johnson won the Fight of the 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.600 Century in nineteen ten. Daddy Grace started his church nine 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:32.160 years later in nineteen nineteen, and when he too became 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:37.160 famous and amazingly wealthy, he also triggered much of that 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:41.760 same racist anger that Johnson did. He may not have 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.160 literally beaten up white men to get his wealth and power, 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:50.040 but to many it felt much the same. When a 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.120 black man, especially one in the first half of the 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:58.240 twentieth century, stands proudly on the world stage and declares 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:02.240 himself a man equal to all others, and that same 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:07.120 man is also rich and powerful, that means he is 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.680 an advertisement for black self worth and a direct attack 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.680 on white supremacy. So whether he is a professional boxer 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.400 or a preacher, that black man will need to be 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.159 put in his place, if not by riots, then by 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:30.080 the power of the state. I'm Marcy de Pina and 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.880 from iHeart Podcasts Enforce the media group. This is Sweet 0:04:35.040 --> 0:05:28.120 Daddy Grace. This is a show about Daddy Grace, but 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.320 it's important to remember that he was also part of 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.719 a time and was impacted by others in the culture. 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.480 Jack Johnson was a powerful force in the early nineteen hundreds, 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:44.120 but it's more than boxing. He upset the social contract 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.760 of America. He was a black man who believed his 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:53.119 success entitled him to whatever pleasures he could afford for him. 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:58.839 This meant white women American culture was not ready for 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.920 Jack Johnson. He was unapologetically black at a time when 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.360 just being black at the wrong place and time could 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.479 get you murdered. Jack Johnson was such a domineering presence 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:11.160 in the culture. 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:12.839 He changed how. 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.719 Americans viewed not just him, but all successful black men, 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:18.560 including Daddy Grace. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.240 So Jack Johnson is another one of these you know, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.599 flamboyant African American men, right, I mean, coming out of Galveston, Texas, 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.799 the Galveston Giant the first decade of nineteen hundreds, wins 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:34.920 the heavyweight championship of the world. And he wasn't quiet, right, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.360 I Mean, he was like one, I'm not only gonna 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.039 whoop up on white boys, right, but I'm gonna date 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.919 your women rightly? Oh like Jack, what do you do 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:43.640 with my man? 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.440 That's doctor Hassan Jeffries again. He teaches and studies the 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.840 civil rights and Black power movements at the Ohio State University. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.640 So Jack Johnson becomes a target. And so because he 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.880 was that flamboyancy not only in the ring but also 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.920 saying I'm going to date your women too, they literally 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.320 create a law that says it's illegal to transport a 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.680 woman from one state to another cross state lines federal 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:13.600 law for the purpose of prostitution. 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.520 That law, it was called the Man Act. It was 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:22.080 passed in nineteen ten. It forbade the transportation of quote, 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.880 any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:32.080 or for any other immoral purpose. It was intentionally broad, 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.760 which is why it was used against Jack Johnson. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.480 If you could just be shown that you know you 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:43.440 had a companion crossing state lines. The logic in the 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.760 minds of white supremacists and any jury white jury in America, 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.400 black people be can sit down, jurys was no white 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.880 woman would in there right by want to be with you, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.560 So therefore she must be an immoral actor, and we 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.840 can get you for that. So Jack Johnson is charged, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.080 he's found guilty, and he leaves the country right because 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:06.880 he's going to be arrested and thrown in jail for 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.560 several years during the height of his boxing prowess. 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.720 As Professor Jeffries points out, the Man Act and laws 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.600 like it, they were all part of a bigger plan 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:21.000 to stop black men with power and sway black men 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.480 like Jack Johnson, black men like Daddy Grace. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.320 How state actors defined powerful really had to do less 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.480 with sort of intellectual ability, but those who develop a 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.400 mass following, right, and especially it's one thing if you 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.480 got negroes following you. It's another thing if you've got 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.880 negroes and white people following you. Because that has always 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.760 been that sort of red line that white power has 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.360 always worried about. That has always been the great fear. 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.600 And so what we see with Daddy Grace in saying 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.000 I'm only going to speak to the integrated crowds is 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:01.480 he's not abiding by the lines demarcation that had been 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.920 established to keep black people and white people apart. And 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.199 even if it's just a handful of people who are 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.240 going to be connected or going to come over. That 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:12.560 poses a real threat. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.240 When a black man was unafraid to stand up for 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.040 what he believes in and seemed fearless in the face 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:25.960 of white authority, that man was often considered dangerous, especially 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.160 if that man could command a crowd. Marcus Garvey was 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.800 another such man. Like Daddy Grace, he too was an immigrant. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.240 Like Daddy Grace, he was also a captivating figure. He 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.679 spoke out for his people, not only for black people 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.640 in America, but for the liberation of black people around 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:51.520 the world. But by doing this, Garvey became a target. 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.960 In fact, he marks the beginning of the rise of j. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:10:00.360 Edgar Hoover, the future director of the FBI. At the time, though, 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.800 Hoover was still working his way up through the Justice 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.360 Department and he was tasked with taking down Marcus Garvey. 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.280 Hoover understood one important thing about Marcus Garvey and men 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.640 like him. They got their power from the people. So 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.760 the only way to destroy that power was to ruin 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:25.679 those men in the eyes of their people using allegations, rumors, 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:30.560 and printed lies. So Hoover did something he otherwise would 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.760 have never done. He hired the Bureau of Investigation's first 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:39.960 full time black agent, in order to infiltrate Garvey's social 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.240 justice movement. He knew the most effective way to attack 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.360 Garvy was from the inside. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:48.120 It worked. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.880 Garvey was soon charged and convicted of mail fraud. After 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.480 he served prison time, he was deported. Using black secret 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.280 agents became a favorite tactic of the government as they 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.040 tried to destabilize other black led efforts like the Civil 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.440 Rights movement and the Black Panther Party for Self Defense 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.400 or leaders like Noble ju Ali, Elijah Muhammad, and Malcolm X, 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:18.679 and also Daddy Grace. In nineteen forty one, with World 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.120 War II raging in Europe, the FBI received a tip 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.920 from an informant that Daddy Grace was a communist and 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.760 that he was trying to incite his followers to riot 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:34.680 against white people, So they sent agents to church services 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.199 to see if they could pin anything on him. It's 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.240 kind of ironic if you think about it, because of 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.760 all the claims against him, being a communist was perhaps 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:49.920 the most far fetched. Daddy Grace had fully embraced capitalism 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.080 and understood the power of money in America. It was 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.040 so clear that even the FBI agreed after a few 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.000 months they dropped the investigation, but that doesn't mean that 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.319 they were happy about it. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.160 I think it's important that we understand that these things 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:13.360 are not accidental. There is a pattern of targeting influential 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.800 African Americans who have this large following. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:18.120 Jaye Goo Hoover. 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.320 He's motivated by this idea, and he writes about this 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.360 in the late nineteen sixties in a memo internal memo 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:30.319 designed to explain America's counterintelligence program, which was those efforts 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.760 designed to undermine civil rights a black power activist, he writes, 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:38.120 our principal objective is to prevent the rise of a 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:43.920 black messiah. This is what he had always been worried about, right, 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.400 is the rise of a black messiah, whether we're talking 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:51.959 about Marcus Garvey or Jack Johnson or Stokely Carmichael or 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.360 Martin Luther King or Daddy Grace. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.559 Minister Lewis Farrakhan, who's headed the Nation of Islam for 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.800 the past forty years, has also been a target of 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.400 the FBI. So he is more than aware of how 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:11.280 rumors were used to discredit powerful black men, including in 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.960 Daddy Grace's earra As he told an audience in nineteen 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.120 eighty three, there came. 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:24.600 Strong voices of liberation Marcus Garve, Nobo true Ali, And 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:30.199 in that same hearing you get a man like father 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.800 Devine right. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:34.520 Daddy Grapes. 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.440 And prophet Joke. Now you may say, oh, look, don't 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:44.200 tell me about them Charlatans, Hold on, We're not gonna 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.280 deal with what people were or are by characterization. I 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.720 want us to deal with what they contributed to our 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:56.600 being where we are. They taught us something if we 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.040 open our eyes and look. 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.160 Did have a lot to teach, and he did a 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:04.480 lot for his congregation. 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:06.079 But he was. 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.839 Also a man with flaws like everyone, and in some 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.520 instances some of the rumors did have merits. So even 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.280 as Daddy Grace fought the fear mongering of Hoover, the government, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.440 and the press, there were black people voice and criticisms 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.960 worth listening to. For one, black women had to pay 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.880 for his assent and satisfaction. Throughout his time as the 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.120 head of the church, there were rumors of affairs and 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:39.440 illegitimate children, and there were other troubling accusations, ones that 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.920 led to a manack trial of his own and ones 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:54.840 that nearly caused his downfall. In nineteen thirty four, Daddy 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.520 Grace was tried in a New York City court for 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:02.720 allegedly violating the man. The government claimed that in nineteen 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.840 thirty two, during a car ride from Brooklyn to Philadelphia, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.920 he had tried to rape a house of Prayer member 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:15.240 Minnie Lee Campbell, then around eighteen or nineteen years old, 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.520 and that later, while at his house in Washington, d c. 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.600 The same one I walked by and marveled at, he 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.560 had convinced Minnie Lee to sleep with him. She later 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.000 had a son, who she named Charles, after the man 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.960 she said was his father. Even though what happened to 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.880 Minnie Lee was at the center of the case, Minnie 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.520 Lee's well being didn't seem to be of much concern 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:45.560 to anyone, including the press. It was more about Daddy Grace. 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.200 Newspapers covered what he wore, what he said, how he 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.440 and his followers, many of who were in attendance at 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:58.720 the trial behaved. Daddy Grace's lawyer did focus on Minni Lee, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.120 but mostly to try to prove that she was promiscuous, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.800 meaning that her son Charles well his father could have 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:10.040 been anyone, and the prosecutor for the government seemed only 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:15.000 mildly interested in what Daddy Grace's intentions with Minny Lee were. Instead, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.720 he was more fixed on discrediting the United House of Prayer. 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.520 He questioned Bishop Grace about the origins of his church, 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.800 his religious training, and what he actually did in his 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.520 role as a preacher. Reading between the lines of this 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.840 not so subtle racism, the question seems to be how 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.360 could a man who looks like this have so much power? 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.000 But did he do it? 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.800 Daddy Grace was found guilty by a jury of twelve 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.480 white men and sentenced to a year and a day 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:55.880 in prison. A week after the trial, Daddy Grace was 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:00.520 preaching in Newport News, Virginia. Defiant in his conviction and 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:05.879 proclaiming his innocence. He appealed to the crowd, saying, only 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.760 the court of the Almighty is the one who can 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:14.399 pass judgment. Conviction is not guilt. Christ was convicted, but 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:19.040 was he guilty? He also appealed legally, and later that 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:23.760 year the case was overturned. It wasn't an absolution of guilt. 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:25.040 The appeal was. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.119 On a technicality about what had happened where. If the 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.960 alleged crime had happened in DC, then the new York 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.119 Court didn't have jurisdiction, but for Daddy Grace it was 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:42.920 good enough. He was once again an innocent man, though 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.400 he didn't address the trial explicitly. Again, the entire experience 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.040 and the support he got from his congregation must have 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.359 stayed with him. You hear it in this sermon which 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.240 was recorded near the end of his life. 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:04.480 Remember what I say, if we together will stay together, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:15.040 fuse together, we will sam or divide it we will fall. 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.240 Honestly, I really wrestled with how to tell this part 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.800 of Daddy Grace's story. He lived such a monumental life 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.159 and I want to make sure that the legacy he 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.320 built through his church isn't forgotten. But I also have 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.919 a lot of hesitation uplifting someone who could be a 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.800 sexual predator, and knowing how my grandfather, a man so 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.200 well respected in the Cape Verdian community, was against Daddy Grace. 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.880 That also gave me pause. Was my Papa right? I mean, 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.119 Daddy Grace did try to get my nana, who was 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.840 just a teenager, to go off on the road with him. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.360 The toughest part has been that so much is still unknown, 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.600 and Daddy Grace and most people who knew him personally, 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.240 aren't around to fill in the blanks, So I've just 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:05.080 tried to look at. 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:06.200 The facts that exist. 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.520 On the one hand, you have a documented pattern of 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.480 the government using the Man Act to try to take 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:18.040 down powerful black men, men they felt disrupted their social order. 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:24.040 On the other hand, basically everyone from the prosecution, the defense, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.240 Daddy Grace himself seemed to have very little consideration for 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.240 Minnie Lee as a person in nineteen thirty four. There's 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.919 no believe women narrative here, especially if it's a black woman. 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.440 And from my contemporary perspective, it's hard not to see 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.480 the power dynamic between Minnie Lee, a young parishioner, and 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.399 Daddy Grace, the much older, much wealthier leader of her church. 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.280 But still I want to be fair to Daddy Grace, 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.440 to measure him against the standards of his own time. 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.399 Men in the nineteen thirties were rightly or wrongly, given 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.760 a certain amount of latitude in their behavior towards women 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.560 and the Man Act. It does have racist origins. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:11.840 So, as I. 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.639 Often do when I find myself needing to make sense 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:18.639 of contradictions, I sat down again with Darryl Stewart, a 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:20.240 producer on the show. 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.399 Sweet Daddy, Grace did a lot of good for his people. 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.840 We cannot argue that. We know that, but he also 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.679 had a lot going on. Is it possible for a 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.760 person to have both light and dark, to do both 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:39.760 some great. 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.520 Things, and to also have some areas. 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.439 That, as my third grade teacher would say, need to 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.040 improve me. What are your thoughts on that? 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:52.560 I believe the answer to that question is yes. I 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.119 think that it is possible to be both a man 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.040 of faith or a woman of faith and also be 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.800 a person that is that has faults and flaws. 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:03.560 And is with sin. 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.560 We are here on this earth living a human experience, 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:12.720 and part of that experience is making mistakes, and I 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:17.200 think that there's not a person that doesn't have those things. 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.000 I think that it doesn't cancel. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.159 Out the good that you may have done, or the 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:23.360 leadership that you may have. 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:31.040 Do government leaders, cultural leaders, spiritual leaders have a different 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:36.119 responsibility because of their title, because of their position in 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:40.080 the world. Or are we all offered or should we 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.520 all be offered that same grace? 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:44.520 Right? 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:48.240 So here's the plan where it's grace. I do believe 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:52.720 that everybody should have a certain amount of grace afforded 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:56.760 to them for whatever transgressions. 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:56.600 They may have. 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.359 However, I do think that when you're in a position 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.720 of leadership, that there's a certain amount of responsibility that's 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.320 been placed upon you. And I think that you are 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.960 going to be held to a different standard because you're 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.280 in a position of leadership. People are looking up to you. 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.919 Can you make mistakes, yes, Can you be forgiven for 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:16.680 those mistakes? 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:17.040 Yes. 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.080 Daddy Grace was sentenced to prison for a year and 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.800 a day after he was found guilty on a charge 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:29.480 of violating the Man Act. So Daddy Grace got involved 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:35.080 in effect. And I want to say, for me, as 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:39.200 a lover of history and as a black man myself, 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:44.320 I understand that sometimes these webs can be complicated because 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:50.520 there's so many different lenses by which to look at this, right, 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:55.240 But I'm curious to know what do you think this 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.320 was all about? What do you think this was really about? 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.880 So Okay, initial sort of reaction to this, and especially 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.280 after my conversation with doctor Jeffries and having a bit 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.040 more understanding about why the Man Act was created in 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.920 the first place, which of course gives me a lot 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:15.480 of pause, But in thinking specifically about Daddy Grace in 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.919 this case, it's it's confusing to me. Now, is it 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.040 possible that they had a consensual sexual interaction? I think 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.960 it is possible. Daddy Grace was a man. I mean, 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:29.600 this is a man who had a lot of power, 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.760 who and resources and could do pretty much whatever he wanted. 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.800 So did he maybe find this woman attractive and did 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.399 he maybe say, hey, you know, I'll give you a job, 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.479 and you know, hey, let's let's have a good time tonight. 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:44.240 You know. 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.359 I think it's curious that he did provide her with 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:49.840 some measure of financial support. 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.040 That she did and she did accept it. 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:55.480 Mm hm. 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.960 So I think it's quite possible that something did happen 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.320 between them. And I also think that it's quite possible that, 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:09.000 especially in that time, that that could have brought down 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:13.960 Daddy Grace's entire mission because people would have slandered him. 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:17.040 And I think there were way too many things at 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.640 stake for something like this to bring down the whole 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:21.000 entire church. 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:23.480 There's too many hounds to be fed. 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:29.679 I'm so glad that you mentioned public ridicule. We know 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.280 that being a preacher in the black community comes with 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:37.280 a certain amount of public ridicule, the men envy you 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:42.360 because of the perceived power authority and anointing the women's 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:46.240 fan girl after you're adorning you with words of affirmation 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:52.159 and gifts of hospitality, their loyalty and service. But in 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:55.520 some ways that also makes the leader vulnerable. Do you 0:24:55.720 --> 0:25:00.800 think that black creatures and other religious leaders were maybe 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:05.240 jealous of Daddy Grace and or white preachers and leaders 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:10.960 and would have benefited them to participate in the assassination 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:11.920 of his character. 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:13.640 Yes, I do. 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.960 Actually, I think it's really difficult to reach that level 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:22.080 of success and not have people try to take you 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:25.199 down and be jealous. But not just jealous, because to me, 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:28.040 jealousy says you have something that I want, but I 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:30.560 can get it if I work hard enough. But envy 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:34.119 is something entirely different. Envy says you have something that 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:36.320 I can never have. And I think a lot of 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:39.199 people were envious of Daddy Grace because they saw that 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.960 he was able to not only it's not just about 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.159 the wealth that he amassed, it's the amount of loyalty 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:51.320 and you know, belief in him that he had, and 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:56.119 that is something that money can't buy. Money can't buy loyalty. 0:25:56.200 --> 0:26:00.520 Money can't buy followers. And I think what was probably 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:03.480 most dangerous about Daddy Grace was the amount of power 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:07.560 that he exerted over his congregation. And so I wouldn't 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.119 think that it would be above the government if they 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:12.280 were trying to find a way to bring him down, 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:16.199 to tap into vulnerable people in his congregation that were 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:18.960 close to him, or were even on the periphery, to 0:26:19.040 --> 0:26:21.280 try to find ways to take him down. It could 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:23.280 be either or it just depends on what lens you 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:32.800 look at it. Daddy Grace, like many of us, was 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:37.119 a complex man, and not everything he did or said 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:41.119 can be cleanly explained. That's added to some of the 0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:44.200 mystery and intrigue around him. 0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:46.919 I think there are parts of him we don't understand, 0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:50.680 So for that reason people maybe want to keep them 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:52.840