Speaker 1: It's July fourth, nineteen ten Reno, Nevada. More than sixteen
Speaker 1: thousand fans pack into a wooden arena, eyes fixed on
Speaker 1: the boxing match below them. Everyone is focused on the
Speaker 1: two men in the ring. They've been at it for
Speaker 1: nearly an hour, and cracks, at least in one of
Speaker 1: them are starting to show. In one corner is Jack Johnson,
Speaker 1: the raining heavyweight champion of the world and the first
Speaker 1: black man to ever hold that title. In the other
Speaker 1: corner is Jim Jeffries, a two hundred and twenty pounds
Speaker 1: former champion who'd come out of retirement strictly for this
Speaker 1: to take that title away. Jeffries has been nicknamed the
Speaker 1: Great White Hope, and this match, it's billed as the
Speaker 1: fight of the century. The crowd, which is almost all white,
Speaker 1: is at full throated volume and clearly in support of Jeffries,
Speaker 1: as are the bookies. No one seemed to consider that
Speaker 1: a young black man at the height of his abilities
Speaker 1: and strength, the best in the world, could beat a
Speaker 1: man who had to lose fifty pounds to get in
Speaker 1: shape in time for the match. No one, of course,
Speaker 1: except for Jack Johnson himself. He is calm, confident, He
Speaker 1: is ready. Nothing Jeffries does bases him. He is just
Speaker 1: waiting for the right moment. And then it comes. The
Speaker 1: fifteenth round. Jack Johnson throws a flurry of punches. They
Speaker 1: catch Jeffries and send him to the match. It's the
Speaker 1: first time Jeffreys has ever been knocked down in his
Speaker 1: entire career. The crowd is shocked. They shout at the
Speaker 1: Great White Hope to get back up. He manages to
Speaker 1: stumble to his feet, but Johnson hits Jeffreys again. The
Speaker 1: blow knocks Jeffrey's back and he falls out of the ring.
Speaker 1: A fan rushes to him pushes him up, but Jack
Speaker 1: Johnson is ready. He charges and lands another hard right.
Speaker 1: Jeffrey stumbles for the third time and goes down. The
Speaker 1: match is called before Johnson can deliver a knockout, saving
Speaker 1: the Great White Hope from the ultimate embarrassment. Jack Johnson,
Speaker 1: a black man, has won the fight of the century
Speaker 1: in a time when white America can barely recognize the
Speaker 1: humanity of black people. He was unequivocally the best in
Speaker 1: the world. He was also rich. He earned over sixty
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars from the fight, more than two million
Speaker 1: dollars today and white America, it wasn't happy. In the
Speaker 1: hours that followed the fight, millions of white Americans seethed.
Speaker 2: They took to the.
Speaker 1: Streets, They rioted, They set buildings ablaze, and terrorized black
Speaker 1: neighborhoods across the country in payback for Jack Johnson's victory
Speaker 1: in the ring. Jack Johnson won the Fight of the
Speaker 1: Century in nineteen ten. Daddy Grace started his church nine
Speaker 1: years later in nineteen nineteen, and when he too became
Speaker 1: famous and amazingly wealthy, he also triggered much of that
Speaker 1: same racist anger that Johnson did. He may not have
Speaker 1: literally beaten up white men to get his wealth and power,
Speaker 1: but to many it felt much the same. When a
Speaker 1: black man, especially one in the first half of the
Speaker 1: twentieth century, stands proudly on the world stage and declares
Speaker 1: himself a man equal to all others, and that same
Speaker 1: man is also rich and powerful, that means he is
Speaker 1: an advertisement for black self worth and a direct attack
Speaker 1: on white supremacy. So whether he is a professional boxer
Speaker 1: or a preacher, that black man will need to be
Speaker 1: put in his place, if not by riots, then by
Speaker 1: the power of the state. I'm Marcy de Pina and
Speaker 1: from iHeart Podcasts Enforce the media group. This is Sweet
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace. This is a show about Daddy Grace, but
Speaker 1: it's important to remember that he was also part of
Speaker 1: a time and was impacted by others in the culture.
Speaker 1: Jack Johnson was a powerful force in the early nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: but it's more than boxing. He upset the social contract
Speaker 1: of America. He was a black man who believed his
Speaker 1: success entitled him to whatever pleasures he could afford for him.
Speaker 1: This meant white women American culture was not ready for
Speaker 1: Jack Johnson. He was unapologetically black at a time when
Speaker 1: just being black at the wrong place and time could
Speaker 1: get you murdered. Jack Johnson was such a domineering presence
Speaker 1: in the culture.
Speaker 2: He changed how.
Speaker 1: Americans viewed not just him, but all successful black men,
Speaker 1: including Daddy Grace.
Speaker 3: So Jack Johnson is another one of these you know,
Speaker 3: flamboyant African American men, right, I mean, coming out of Galveston, Texas,
Speaker 3: the Galveston Giant the first decade of nineteen hundreds, wins
Speaker 3: the heavyweight championship of the world. And he wasn't quiet, right,
Speaker 3: I Mean, he was like one, I'm not only gonna
Speaker 3: whoop up on white boys, right, but I'm gonna date
Speaker 3: your women rightly? Oh like Jack, what do you do
Speaker 3: with my man?
Speaker 1: That's doctor Hassan Jeffries again. He teaches and studies the
Speaker 1: civil rights and Black power movements at the Ohio State University.
Speaker 3: So Jack Johnson becomes a target. And so because he
Speaker 3: was that flamboyancy not only in the ring but also
Speaker 3: saying I'm going to date your women too, they literally
Speaker 3: create a law that says it's illegal to transport a
Speaker 3: woman from one state to another cross state lines federal
Speaker 3: law for the purpose of prostitution.
Speaker 1: That law, it was called the Man Act. It was
Speaker 1: passed in nineteen ten. It forbade the transportation of quote,
Speaker 1: any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery,
Speaker 1: or for any other immoral purpose. It was intentionally broad,
Speaker 1: which is why it was used against Jack Johnson.
Speaker 3: If you could just be shown that you know you
Speaker 3: had a companion crossing state lines. The logic in the
Speaker 3: minds of white supremacists and any jury white jury in America,
Speaker 3: black people be can sit down, jurys was no white
Speaker 3: woman would in there right by want to be with you,
Speaker 3: So therefore she must be an immoral actor, and we
Speaker 3: can get you for that. So Jack Johnson is charged,
Speaker 3: he's found guilty, and he leaves the country right because
Speaker 3: he's going to be arrested and thrown in jail for
Speaker 3: several years during the height of his boxing prowess.
Speaker 1: As Professor Jeffries points out, the Man Act and laws
Speaker 1: like it, they were all part of a bigger plan
Speaker 1: to stop black men with power and sway black men
Speaker 1: like Jack Johnson, black men like Daddy Grace.
Speaker 3: How state actors defined powerful really had to do less
Speaker 3: with sort of intellectual ability, but those who develop a
Speaker 3: mass following, right, and especially it's one thing if you
Speaker 3: got negroes following you. It's another thing if you've got
Speaker 3: negroes and white people following you. Because that has always
Speaker 3: been that sort of red line that white power has
Speaker 3: always worried about. That has always been the great fear.
Speaker 3: And so what we see with Daddy Grace in saying
Speaker 3: I'm only going to speak to the integrated crowds is
Speaker 3: he's not abiding by the lines demarcation that had been
Speaker 3: established to keep black people and white people apart. And
Speaker 3: even if it's just a handful of people who are
Speaker 3: going to be connected or going to come over. That
Speaker 3: poses a real threat.
Speaker 1: When a black man was unafraid to stand up for
Speaker 1: what he believes in and seemed fearless in the face
Speaker 1: of white authority, that man was often considered dangerous, especially
Speaker 1: if that man could command a crowd. Marcus Garvey was
Speaker 1: another such man. Like Daddy Grace, he too was an immigrant.
Speaker 1: Like Daddy Grace, he was also a captivating figure. He
Speaker 1: spoke out for his people, not only for black people
Speaker 1: in America, but for the liberation of black people around
Speaker 1: the world. But by doing this, Garvey became a target.
Speaker 1: In fact, he marks the beginning of the rise of j.
Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover, the future director of the FBI. At the time, though,
Speaker 1: Hoover was still working his way up through the Justice
Speaker 1: Department and he was tasked with taking down Marcus Garvey.
Speaker 1: Hoover understood one important thing about Marcus Garvey and men
Speaker 1: like him. They got their power from the people. So
Speaker 1: the only way to destroy that power was to ruin
Speaker 1: those men in the eyes of their people using allegations, rumors,
Speaker 1: and printed lies. So Hoover did something he otherwise would
Speaker 1: have never done. He hired the Bureau of Investigation's first
Speaker 1: full time black agent, in order to infiltrate Garvey's social
Speaker 1: justice movement. He knew the most effective way to attack
Speaker 1: Garvy was from the inside.
Speaker 2: It worked.
Speaker 1: Garvey was soon charged and convicted of mail fraud. After
Speaker 1: he served prison time, he was deported. Using black secret
Speaker 1: agents became a favorite tactic of the government as they
Speaker 1: tried to destabilize other black led efforts like the Civil
Speaker 1: Rights movement and the Black Panther Party for Self Defense
Speaker 1: or leaders like Noble ju Ali, Elijah Muhammad, and Malcolm X,
Speaker 1: and also Daddy Grace. In nineteen forty one, with World
Speaker 1: War II raging in Europe, the FBI received a tip
Speaker 1: from an informant that Daddy Grace was a communist and
Speaker 1: that he was trying to incite his followers to riot
Speaker 1: against white people, So they sent agents to church services
Speaker 1: to see if they could pin anything on him. It's
Speaker 1: kind of ironic if you think about it, because of
Speaker 1: all the claims against him, being a communist was perhaps
Speaker 1: the most far fetched. Daddy Grace had fully embraced capitalism
Speaker 1: and understood the power of money in America. It was
Speaker 1: so clear that even the FBI agreed after a few
Speaker 1: months they dropped the investigation, but that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: they were happy about it.
Speaker 3: I think it's important that we understand that these things
Speaker 3: are not accidental. There is a pattern of targeting influential
Speaker 3: African Americans who have this large following.
Speaker 4: Jaye Goo Hoover.
Speaker 3: He's motivated by this idea, and he writes about this
Speaker 3: in the late nineteen sixties in a memo internal memo
Speaker 3: designed to explain America's counterintelligence program, which was those efforts
Speaker 3: designed to undermine civil rights a black power activist, he writes,
Speaker 3: our principal objective is to prevent the rise of a
Speaker 3: black messiah. This is what he had always been worried about, right,
Speaker 3: is the rise of a black messiah, whether we're talking
Speaker 3: about Marcus Garvey or Jack Johnson or Stokely Carmichael or
Speaker 3: Martin Luther King or Daddy Grace.
Speaker 1: Minister Lewis Farrakhan, who's headed the Nation of Islam for
Speaker 1: the past forty years, has also been a target of
Speaker 1: the FBI. So he is more than aware of how
Speaker 1: rumors were used to discredit powerful black men, including in
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's earra As he told an audience in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty three, there came.
Speaker 4: Strong voices of liberation Marcus Garve, Nobo true Ali, And
Speaker 4: in that same hearing you get a man like father
Speaker 4: Devine right.
Speaker 5: Daddy Grapes.
Speaker 4: And prophet Joke. Now you may say, oh, look, don't
Speaker 4: tell me about them Charlatans, Hold on, We're not gonna
Speaker 4: deal with what people were or are by characterization. I
Speaker 4: want us to deal with what they contributed to our
Speaker 4: being where we are. They taught us something if we
Speaker 4: open our eyes and look.
Speaker 1: Did have a lot to teach, and he did a
Speaker 1: lot for his congregation.
Speaker 2: But he was.
Speaker 1: Also a man with flaws like everyone, and in some
Speaker 1: instances some of the rumors did have merits. So even
Speaker 1: as Daddy Grace fought the fear mongering of Hoover, the government,
Speaker 1: and the press, there were black people voice and criticisms
Speaker 1: worth listening to. For one, black women had to pay
Speaker 1: for his assent and satisfaction. Throughout his time as the
Speaker 1: head of the church, there were rumors of affairs and
Speaker 1: illegitimate children, and there were other troubling accusations, ones that
Speaker 1: led to a manack trial of his own and ones
Speaker 1: that nearly caused his downfall. In nineteen thirty four, Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace was tried in a New York City court for
Speaker 1: allegedly violating the man. The government claimed that in nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty two, during a car ride from Brooklyn to Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: he had tried to rape a house of Prayer member
Speaker 1: Minnie Lee Campbell, then around eighteen or nineteen years old,
Speaker 1: and that later, while at his house in Washington, d c.
Speaker 1: The same one I walked by and marveled at, he
Speaker 1: had convinced Minnie Lee to sleep with him. She later
Speaker 1: had a son, who she named Charles, after the man
Speaker 1: she said was his father. Even though what happened to
Speaker 1: Minnie Lee was at the center of the case, Minnie
Speaker 1: Lee's well being didn't seem to be of much concern
Speaker 1: to anyone, including the press. It was more about Daddy Grace.
Speaker 1: Newspapers covered what he wore, what he said, how he
Speaker 1: and his followers, many of who were in attendance at
Speaker 1: the trial behaved. Daddy Grace's lawyer did focus on Minni Lee,
Speaker 1: but mostly to try to prove that she was promiscuous,
Speaker 1: meaning that her son Charles well his father could have
Speaker 1: been anyone, and the prosecutor for the government seemed only
Speaker 1: mildly interested in what Daddy Grace's intentions with Minny Lee were. Instead,
Speaker 1: he was more fixed on discrediting the United House of Prayer.
Speaker 1: He questioned Bishop Grace about the origins of his church,
Speaker 1: his religious training, and what he actually did in his
Speaker 1: role as a preacher. Reading between the lines of this
Speaker 1: not so subtle racism, the question seems to be how
Speaker 1: could a man who looks like this have so much power?
Speaker 2: But did he do it?
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was found guilty by a jury of twelve
Speaker 1: white men and sentenced to a year and a day
Speaker 1: in prison. A week after the trial, Daddy Grace was
Speaker 1: preaching in Newport News, Virginia. Defiant in his conviction and
Speaker 1: proclaiming his innocence. He appealed to the crowd, saying, only
Speaker 1: the court of the Almighty is the one who can
Speaker 1: pass judgment. Conviction is not guilt. Christ was convicted, but
Speaker 1: was he guilty? He also appealed legally, and later that
Speaker 1: year the case was overturned. It wasn't an absolution of guilt.
Speaker 2: The appeal was.
Speaker 1: On a technicality about what had happened where. If the
Speaker 1: alleged crime had happened in DC, then the new York
Speaker 1: Court didn't have jurisdiction, but for Daddy Grace it was
Speaker 1: good enough. He was once again an innocent man, though
Speaker 1: he didn't address the trial explicitly. Again, the entire experience
Speaker 1: and the support he got from his congregation must have
Speaker 1: stayed with him. You hear it in this sermon which
Speaker 1: was recorded near the end of his life.
Speaker 6: Remember what I say, if we together will stay together,
Speaker 6: fuse together, we will sam or divide it we will fall.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I really wrestled with how to tell this part
Speaker 1: of Daddy Grace's story. He lived such a monumental life
Speaker 1: and I want to make sure that the legacy he
Speaker 1: built through his church isn't forgotten. But I also have
Speaker 1: a lot of hesitation uplifting someone who could be a
Speaker 1: sexual predator, and knowing how my grandfather, a man so
Speaker 1: well respected in the Cape Verdian community, was against Daddy Grace.
Speaker 1: That also gave me pause. Was my Papa right? I mean,
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace did try to get my nana, who was
Speaker 1: just a teenager, to go off on the road with him.
Speaker 1: The toughest part has been that so much is still unknown,
Speaker 1: and Daddy Grace and most people who knew him personally,
Speaker 1: aren't around to fill in the blanks, So I've just
Speaker 1: tried to look at.
Speaker 2: The facts that exist.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, you have a documented pattern of
Speaker 1: the government using the Man Act to try to take
Speaker 1: down powerful black men, men they felt disrupted their social order.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, basically everyone from the prosecution, the defense,
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace himself seemed to have very little consideration for
Speaker 1: Minnie Lee as a person in nineteen thirty four. There's
Speaker 1: no believe women narrative here, especially if it's a black woman.
Speaker 1: And from my contemporary perspective, it's hard not to see
Speaker 1: the power dynamic between Minnie Lee, a young parishioner, and
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace, the much older, much wealthier leader of her church.
Speaker 1: But still I want to be fair to Daddy Grace,
Speaker 1: to measure him against the standards of his own time.
Speaker 1: Men in the nineteen thirties were rightly or wrongly, given
Speaker 1: a certain amount of latitude in their behavior towards women
Speaker 1: and the Man Act. It does have racist origins.
Speaker 6: So, as I.
Speaker 1: Often do when I find myself needing to make sense
Speaker 1: of contradictions, I sat down again with Darryl Stewart, a
Speaker 1: producer on the show.
Speaker 7: Sweet Daddy, Grace did a lot of good for his people.
Speaker 7: We cannot argue that. We know that, but he also
Speaker 7: had a lot going on. Is it possible for a
Speaker 7: person to have both light and dark, to do both
Speaker 7: some great.
Speaker 2: Things, and to also have some areas.
Speaker 7: That, as my third grade teacher would say, need to
Speaker 7: improve me. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: I believe the answer to that question is yes. I
Speaker 1: think that it is possible to be both a man
Speaker 1: of faith or a woman of faith and also be
Speaker 1: a person that is that has faults and flaws.
Speaker 2: And is with sin.
Speaker 1: We are here on this earth living a human experience,
Speaker 1: and part of that experience is making mistakes, and I
Speaker 1: think that there's not a person that doesn't have those things.
Speaker 2: I think that it doesn't cancel.
Speaker 1: Out the good that you may have done, or the
Speaker 1: leadership that you may have.
Speaker 7: Do government leaders, cultural leaders, spiritual leaders have a different
Speaker 7: responsibility because of their title, because of their position in
Speaker 7: the world. Or are we all offered or should we
Speaker 7: all be offered that same grace?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 1: So here's the plan where it's grace. I do believe
Speaker 1: that everybody should have a certain amount of grace afforded
Speaker 1: to them for whatever transgressions.
Speaker 2: They may have.
Speaker 1: However, I do think that when you're in a position
Speaker 1: of leadership, that there's a certain amount of responsibility that's
Speaker 1: been placed upon you. And I think that you are
Speaker 1: going to be held to a different standard because you're
Speaker 1: in a position of leadership. People are looking up to you.
Speaker 1: Can you make mistakes, yes, Can you be forgiven for
Speaker 1: those mistakes?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 7: Daddy Grace was sentenced to prison for a year and
Speaker 7: a day after he was found guilty on a charge
Speaker 7: of violating the Man Act. So Daddy Grace got involved
Speaker 7: in effect. And I want to say, for me, as
Speaker 7: a lover of history and as a black man myself,
Speaker 7: I understand that sometimes these webs can be complicated because
Speaker 7: there's so many different lenses by which to look at this, right,
Speaker 7: But I'm curious to know what do you think this
Speaker 7: was all about? What do you think this was really about?
Speaker 1: So Okay, initial sort of reaction to this, and especially
Speaker 1: after my conversation with doctor Jeffries and having a bit
Speaker 1: more understanding about why the Man Act was created in
Speaker 1: the first place, which of course gives me a lot
Speaker 1: of pause, But in thinking specifically about Daddy Grace in
Speaker 1: this case, it's it's confusing to me. Now, is it
Speaker 1: possible that they had a consensual sexual interaction? I think
Speaker 1: it is possible. Daddy Grace was a man. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a man who had a lot of power,
Speaker 1: who and resources and could do pretty much whatever he wanted.
Speaker 1: So did he maybe find this woman attractive and did
Speaker 1: he maybe say, hey, you know, I'll give you a job,
Speaker 1: and you know, hey, let's let's have a good time tonight.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think it's curious that he did provide her with
Speaker 1: some measure of financial support.
Speaker 2: That she did and she did accept it.
Speaker 7: Mm hm.
Speaker 1: So I think it's quite possible that something did happen
Speaker 1: between them. And I also think that it's quite possible that,
Speaker 1: especially in that time, that that could have brought down
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's entire mission because people would have slandered him.
Speaker 1: And I think there were way too many things at
Speaker 1: stake for something like this to bring down the whole
Speaker 1: entire church.
Speaker 2: There's too many hounds to be fed.
Speaker 7: I'm so glad that you mentioned public ridicule. We know
Speaker 7: that being a preacher in the black community comes with
Speaker 7: a certain amount of public ridicule, the men envy you
Speaker 7: because of the perceived power authority and anointing the women's
Speaker 7: fan girl after you're adorning you with words of affirmation
Speaker 7: and gifts of hospitality, their loyalty and service. But in
Speaker 7: some ways that also makes the leader vulnerable. Do you
Speaker 7: think that black creatures and other religious leaders were maybe
Speaker 7: jealous of Daddy Grace and or white preachers and leaders
Speaker 7: and would have benefited them to participate in the assassination
Speaker 7: of his character.
Speaker 2: Yes, I do.
Speaker 1: Actually, I think it's really difficult to reach that level
Speaker 1: of success and not have people try to take you
Speaker 1: down and be jealous. But not just jealous, because to me,
Speaker 1: jealousy says you have something that I want, but I
Speaker 1: can get it if I work hard enough. But envy
Speaker 1: is something entirely different. Envy says you have something that
Speaker 1: I can never have. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people were envious of Daddy Grace because they saw that
Speaker 1: he was able to not only it's not just about
Speaker 1: the wealth that he amassed, it's the amount of loyalty
Speaker 1: and you know, belief in him that he had, and
Speaker 1: that is something that money can't buy. Money can't buy loyalty.
Speaker 1: Money can't buy followers. And I think what was probably
Speaker 1: most dangerous about Daddy Grace was the amount of power
Speaker 1: that he exerted over his congregation. And so I wouldn't
Speaker 1: think that it would be above the government if they
Speaker 1: were trying to find a way to bring him down,
Speaker 1: to tap into vulnerable people in his congregation that were
Speaker 1: close to him, or were even on the periphery, to
Speaker 1: try to find ways to take him down. It could
Speaker 1: be either or it just depends on what lens you
Speaker 1: look at it. Daddy Grace, like many of us, was
Speaker 1: a complex man, and not everything he did or said
Speaker 1: can be cleanly explained. That's added to some of the
Speaker 1: mystery and intrigue around him.
Speaker 8: I think there are parts of him we don't understand,
Speaker 8: So for that reason people maybe want to keep them
Speaker 8: at arm's length. They're not sure how much of his
Speaker 8: work should be celebrated, or how much there might be
Speaker 8: to be uncovered about something bad he did or something
Speaker 8: we won't like. But it revolves around these things of
Speaker 8: money and flamboyance and was he exploiting people? Those are
Speaker 8: all still questions that kind of linger.
Speaker 1: Doctor Marie Dollam is a professor of American religion and
Speaker 1: Associate dean at the University of Oklahoma. She's the author
Speaker 1: of the book Daddy Grace, a Celebrity Preacher and His
Speaker 1: House of Prayer, and she is very familiar with the
Speaker 1: controversies surrounding him.
Speaker 8: I don't think he was trying to exploit people in
Speaker 8: the sense that some people have suggested he was. I
Speaker 8: tend to think he was someone who was sincere in
Speaker 8: what he was doing. That he couldn't spend forty years
Speaker 8: as a religious leader just pulling the wool over people's eyes.
Speaker 1: To the contrary, doctor Dalam sees how the way Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace behaved and stilled the sense of pride and belonging
Speaker 1: to his congregation.
Speaker 8: The way he carried himself, the way he had people
Speaker 8: wait on him. He had a hierarchy going that was
Speaker 8: palpable in the church, and I think there was something
Speaker 8: special about that. People could feel like they were part
Speaker 8: of this really important church. They owned lots of property,
Speaker 8: there was lots of glamour attached to that, but he
Speaker 8: had a status that was above them right, and there
Speaker 8: was a kind of buy in that was necessary to
Speaker 8: make that happen.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that She also doesn't struggle with
Speaker 1: how to reconcile some of the contradictions around him.
Speaker 8: I hate to think ill of him because I feel
Speaker 8: protective of Daddy Grace. I feel like so many people
Speaker 8: have tried to tear him down. I don't want to
Speaker 8: be one more person who's doing that. But in honesty,
Speaker 8: I think there's probably some truth in a lot of
Speaker 8: those accusations. Perhaps not to the extent and the extent
Speaker 8: dreams that people were saying, but you know, I wouldn't
Speaker 8: be surprised if some of them were somewhat true. For example,
Speaker 8: the Man Act violation where he supposedly raped his female
Speaker 8: companion in the car as they were traveling. Did he
Speaker 8: do that? I don't know, But I do know that
Speaker 8: when you read the transcript of the trial, it's very
Speaker 8: clear that all of the witnesses on his side were
Speaker 8: heavily prepared. They say the exact same thing, and it's
Speaker 8: too close for coincidence. So there's something in there that
Speaker 8: he didn't want people to know. What did he not
Speaker 8: want people to know?
Speaker 2: You know, that's a history.
Speaker 1: And then there was the Irs. The Irs went after
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace repeatedly for not filing taxes for failing to
Speaker 1: report income for not being taxes on the large offerings
Speaker 1: given to the church by its parishioners. He fought those
Speaker 1: charges and he usually won, but it was constant tax fraud.
Speaker 8: Yeah, probably was that deliberate or was that just he
Speaker 8: wasn't fully aware of how one needs to manage a
Speaker 8: multimillion dollar church. That's entirely possible, right, How would he
Speaker 8: have learned how to manage finances in the legal way?
Speaker 8: I don't know that he would have, So, Yeah, I
Speaker 8: think there's potential truth in all of that, but I
Speaker 8: don't think that's really what we need to focus on,
Speaker 8: because who among us doesn't have a dark secret or too? Right,
Speaker 8: we just don't happen to be as famous.
Speaker 1: For many people in my family, especially the older generations,
Speaker 1: these secrets were enough to rule Daddy Grace out, to
Speaker 1: consider him a fraud, a crook, a con man, and
Speaker 1: to completely deny any relation. And though I don't agree
Speaker 1: with them, I understand where they're coming from. As black immigrants,
Speaker 1: they were told by white society that they weren't worth
Speaker 1: very much. Their standing in America was fragile enough that
Speaker 1: they didn't want to do anything to disrupt it. Including
Speaker 1: associating with someone like Daddy Grace, who was considered so
Speaker 1: as my Aunt Judy said out there.
Speaker 9: What I have heard about Bishop Grace and all that
Speaker 9: he has brought to his people is something that we
Speaker 9: all can learn from. How about owning your own stuff,
Speaker 9: how about not having no date? Not just about his
Speaker 9: long nails and how people would what's.
Speaker 5: The matter with Daddy?
Speaker 9: He's all right. He taught and set the foundation for
Speaker 9: his people to be dead free all their own property.
Speaker 1: Reverend Louise Scott Rowntree is a council member at Large
Speaker 1: for the City of Newark, New Jersey. Her mother, Madame
Speaker 1: Louise Scott, was thought to be the city's first black
Speaker 1: female millionaire. A self made woman, she built her fortune
Speaker 1: by opening a salon selling beauty products and later opening
Speaker 1: up multiple shops and even a beauty school. Reverend Roundtree
Speaker 1: is very familiar with Daddy Grace and everything he accomplished,
Speaker 1: because in some ways you could say that there are
Speaker 1: parallels between the lives of Daddy Grace and her own mother.
Speaker 2: You know, my mother had.
Speaker 9: To work, so was she She really carried God with
Speaker 9: her being an African American during those times when you
Speaker 9: know racism.
Speaker 2: Was high, and you had to have that.
Speaker 9: Because people say something to you that might make you
Speaker 9: either hurt them or you get hurt by your response.
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, Madame Louise Scott purchased a twenty
Speaker 1: six room mansion in the heart of Newark. It had
Speaker 1: been built in the eighteen eighties by a local beer baron,
Speaker 1: Gottfried Krueger. The Krueger Mansion was now the Krueger Scott Mansion.
Speaker 1: Many people couldn't believe a black woman could own such
Speaker 1: an extravagant building, but for Reverend Rowntree, who grew up there,
Speaker 1: it was just a home.
Speaker 9: To be honest with you, I didn't know have any
Speaker 9: idea who my mother was. I didn't have any idea
Speaker 9: of where I lived. It was just all my life.
Speaker 9: It was like I didn't realize the greatness of any
Speaker 9: of this.
Speaker 1: And besides her entrepreneurial skills, Reverend Rowntree also admired her
Speaker 1: mother's commitment to faith. It's what drives her too.
Speaker 9: That will overseeing inter faith alliance where I tell people
Speaker 9: that it's not about their religion, it's about humanity. So
Speaker 9: we're gonna love each other. We're gonna play together. And
Speaker 9: I got that from my mother. My mother I never
Speaker 9: saw treat anybody different like. She never put any airs
Speaker 9: on when she gotten certain. She was so busy being busy.
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was also a busy man, busy with his church,
Speaker 1: the members, and all of his enterprises. But here's the thing.
Speaker 1: With all his time spent on the house of prayer,
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's relationships with much of his own family were complicated.
Speaker 1: His two marriages ended in divorce, and in nineteen forty seven,
Speaker 1: his son Norman was tragically killed in a car accident
Speaker 1: while on his way to meet Daddy.
Speaker 2: Grace in Charlotte.
Speaker 1: The aftermath of his death strained his relationship with Norman's sister,
Speaker 1: his daughter Irene. They didn't seem to talk much after that,
Speaker 1: and his son Marcellino from his second marriage, was diagnosed
Speaker 1: with schizophrenia and had problems with the law. Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: supported him financially for a while, but eventually seemed to
Speaker 1: distance himself from him. Reverend Rowntree understands how being a
Speaker 1: leader and being in service to other people can take
Speaker 1: away from your own personal life.
Speaker 5: Family gets really pushed to the side a lot because
Speaker 5: of the sacrifices based on what you've committed to, what
Speaker 5: position you're in. So in my case, there's a lot
Speaker 5: of things bad I look back on as as I
Speaker 5: could have done different while working in government, being a
Speaker 5: parent becomes a challenge during things, a family becomes a challenge.
Speaker 5: Trying to make time for you becomes a challenge if
Speaker 5: you're committed to the work.
Speaker 9: If you're not committed, then nothing's challenge.
Speaker 8: You just do.
Speaker 5: But if you're committed, there can be multiple challenges based.
Speaker 9: On what you have going on in your life.
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace did have family.
Speaker 2: He was close to.
Speaker 1: Family who were involved in the church, like his sisters
Speaker 1: Louise and Sylvia, who frequently accompanied him on the road,
Speaker 1: and many nieces and nephews as well, And of course
Speaker 1: he was constantly surrounded by church elders, Grace soldiers, and
Speaker 1: Grace maids. But in many ways he was alone. Doctor
Speaker 1: Marie Dollom also wondered about Daddy Grace's personal relationships.
Speaker 8: He seemed to have a kind of on again, off
Speaker 8: again thing with the first wife, and then the second
Speaker 8: one was came and went fairly quickly. They just didn't
Speaker 8: quite add up to me, especially For such a famous guy,
Speaker 8: you think he'd want someone by his side, who's the
Speaker 8: capable companion, who can be the equivalent female in the church.
Speaker 8: It was surprising that he never found someone like that
Speaker 8: to be there with him.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: As a self professed workaholic, I kind of took that
Speaker 1: as I wonder if that's what it was like he
Speaker 1: was married to the church that took precedence over everything.
Speaker 1: It seems like his work was the thing he was
Speaker 1: most faithful to his entire life, and maybe he didn't
Speaker 1: want to share that with anybody.
Speaker 8: You know what, That's a really beautiful way to put it,
Speaker 8: and you may be totally right on that. Yeah, that
Speaker 8: was his loyalty right there.
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was clearly a man on a mission. Although
Speaker 1: there are differing opinions about what that mission was, no
Speaker 1: one can doubt that what he accomplished in his lifetime
Speaker 1: was momentous, whether you agree with his methods or not.
Speaker 1: For him, it was about saving souls and making sure
Speaker 1: that his people were prosperous and living within the kingdom
Speaker 1: that he built here on earth. And to do this
Speaker 1: as an African immigrant, as a black man in America,
Speaker 1: meant he paid the price. There is no doubt that
Speaker 1: he benefited from the spoils of his work, but constant
Speaker 1: surveillance by government entities around his church and his businesses, jealousy,
Speaker 1: mistrust by his fellow Cape Verdians, contentious relationships, and family
Speaker 1: fractures were the sacrifices that he made to build his
Speaker 1: vision and fulfill the calling that brought him to America.
Speaker 1: My own family worked hard to distance themselves from Daddy Grace,
Speaker 1: even though there were multiple ties and connections. The feeling
Speaker 1: in my gut has driven me to find the truth
Speaker 1: in spite of what people might think or feel. I've
Speaker 1: spent years working on this show, traveled across the Atlantic
Speaker 1: several times, and poured over documents trying to discover the truth.
Speaker 1: Is Daddy Grace really my family? And will I ever
Speaker 1: figure this out? That's next time in the final episode
Speaker 1: of Sweet Daddy Grace. Sweet Daddy Grace is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeart Podcasts and Force, a media group. This show
Speaker 1: is hosted by Me Marcy de Pina. It's written and
Speaker 1: produced by Marissa Brown and Me. Our story editors are
Speaker 1: Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedel, and Zarren Burnett. Editing sound design
Speaker 1: and theme music by Jonathan Washington, Additional editing by Matt Russell,
Speaker 1: show cover art by Viviana Salgado of Studio Creative Group.
Speaker 1: Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive producers are Marcy
Speaker 1: Depina and Jason English. Special thanks to Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore,
Speaker 1: Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu Phillip of iHeartMedia, and
Speaker 1: all of my family members who talk to me for
Speaker 1: this show, my ancestors, the United House of Prayer for
Speaker 1: All People, and the countless number of people who shared
Speaker 1: their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace with me. Thanks also
Speaker 1: to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor Danielle brun Sigler, whose
Speaker 1: academic work on Sweet Daddy Grace has been incredibly helpful.
Speaker 1: And finally, I want to thank Bishop Grace himself for
Speaker 1: choosing me to tell his story. For more information on
Speaker 1: Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out the website Sweet Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace and follow me at Marci Dapina on all social
Speaker 1: platforms