1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: It's July fourth, nineteen ten Reno, Nevada. More than sixteen 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: thousand fans pack into a wooden arena, eyes fixed on 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: the boxing match below them. Everyone is focused on the 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: two men in the ring. They've been at it for 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: nearly an hour, and cracks, at least in one of 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: them are starting to show. In one corner is Jack Johnson, 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: the raining heavyweight champion of the world and the first 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: black man to ever hold that title. In the other 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: corner is Jim Jeffries, a two hundred and twenty pounds 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: former champion who'd come out of retirement strictly for this 11 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: to take that title away. Jeffries has been nicknamed the 12 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Great White Hope, and this match, it's billed as the 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: fight of the century. The crowd, which is almost all white, 14 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: is at full throated volume and clearly in support of Jeffries, 15 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: as are the bookies. No one seemed to consider that 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: a young black man at the height of his abilities 17 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: and strength, the best in the world, could beat a 18 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: man who had to lose fifty pounds to get in 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: shape in time for the match. No one, of course, 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: except for Jack Johnson himself. He is calm, confident, He 21 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: is ready. Nothing Jeffries does bases him. He is just 22 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: waiting for the right moment. And then it comes. The 23 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: fifteenth round. Jack Johnson throws a flurry of punches. They 24 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: catch Jeffries and send him to the match. It's the 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: first time Jeffreys has ever been knocked down in his 26 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: entire career. The crowd is shocked. They shout at the 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: Great White Hope to get back up. He manages to 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: stumble to his feet, but Johnson hits Jeffreys again. The 29 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: blow knocks Jeffrey's back and he falls out of the ring. 30 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: A fan rushes to him pushes him up, but Jack 31 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: Johnson is ready. He charges and lands another hard right. 32 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: Jeffrey stumbles for the third time and goes down. The 33 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: match is called before Johnson can deliver a knockout, saving 34 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: the Great White Hope from the ultimate embarrassment. Jack Johnson, 35 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: a black man, has won the fight of the century 36 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: in a time when white America can barely recognize the 37 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: humanity of black people. He was unequivocally the best in 38 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: the world. He was also rich. He earned over sixty 39 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars from the fight, more than two million 40 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: dollars today and white America, it wasn't happy. In the 41 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: hours that followed the fight, millions of white Americans seethed. 42 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: They took to the. 43 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: Streets, They rioted, They set buildings ablaze, and terrorized black 44 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: neighborhoods across the country in payback for Jack Johnson's victory 45 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: in the ring. Jack Johnson won the Fight of the 46 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Century in nineteen ten. Daddy Grace started his church nine 47 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: years later in nineteen nineteen, and when he too became 48 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: famous and amazingly wealthy, he also triggered much of that 49 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: same racist anger that Johnson did. He may not have 50 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: literally beaten up white men to get his wealth and power, 51 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: but to many it felt much the same. When a 52 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: black man, especially one in the first half of the 53 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: twentieth century, stands proudly on the world stage and declares 54 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: himself a man equal to all others, and that same 55 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: man is also rich and powerful, that means he is 56 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: an advertisement for black self worth and a direct attack 57 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: on white supremacy. So whether he is a professional boxer 58 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: or a preacher, that black man will need to be 59 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: put in his place, if not by riots, then by 60 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: the power of the state. I'm Marcy de Pina and 61 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: from iHeart Podcasts Enforce the media group. This is Sweet 62 00:04:35,040 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace. This is a show about Daddy Grace, but 63 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: it's important to remember that he was also part of 64 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: a time and was impacted by others in the culture. 65 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: Jack Johnson was a powerful force in the early nineteen hundreds, 66 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: but it's more than boxing. He upset the social contract 67 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: of America. He was a black man who believed his 68 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:53,119 Speaker 1: success entitled him to whatever pleasures he could afford for him. 69 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: This meant white women American culture was not ready for 70 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: Jack Johnson. He was unapologetically black at a time when 71 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: just being black at the wrong place and time could 72 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: get you murdered. Jack Johnson was such a domineering presence 73 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: in the culture. 74 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: He changed how. 75 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: Americans viewed not just him, but all successful black men, 76 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: including Daddy Grace. 77 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: So Jack Johnson is another one of these you know, 78 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 3: flamboyant African American men, right, I mean, coming out of Galveston, Texas, 79 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 3: the Galveston Giant the first decade of nineteen hundreds, wins 80 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 3: the heavyweight championship of the world. And he wasn't quiet, right, 81 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 3: I Mean, he was like one, I'm not only gonna 82 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 3: whoop up on white boys, right, but I'm gonna date 83 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 3: your women rightly? Oh like Jack, what do you do 84 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: with my man? 85 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: That's doctor Hassan Jeffries again. He teaches and studies the 86 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: civil rights and Black power movements at the Ohio State University. 87 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 3: So Jack Johnson becomes a target. And so because he 88 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: was that flamboyancy not only in the ring but also 89 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 3: saying I'm going to date your women too, they literally 90 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: create a law that says it's illegal to transport a 91 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: woman from one state to another cross state lines federal 92 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: law for the purpose of prostitution. 93 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: That law, it was called the Man Act. It was 94 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: passed in nineteen ten. It forbade the transportation of quote, 95 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, 96 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: or for any other immoral purpose. It was intentionally broad, 97 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: which is why it was used against Jack Johnson. 98 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: If you could just be shown that you know you 99 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: had a companion crossing state lines. The logic in the 100 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: minds of white supremacists and any jury white jury in America, 101 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 3: black people be can sit down, jurys was no white 102 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: woman would in there right by want to be with you, 103 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 3: So therefore she must be an immoral actor, and we 104 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: can get you for that. So Jack Johnson is charged, 105 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 3: he's found guilty, and he leaves the country right because 106 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: he's going to be arrested and thrown in jail for 107 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: several years during the height of his boxing prowess. 108 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: As Professor Jeffries points out, the Man Act and laws 109 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: like it, they were all part of a bigger plan 110 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: to stop black men with power and sway black men 111 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: like Jack Johnson, black men like Daddy Grace. 112 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: How state actors defined powerful really had to do less 113 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: with sort of intellectual ability, but those who develop a 114 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: mass following, right, and especially it's one thing if you 115 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 3: got negroes following you. It's another thing if you've got 116 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: negroes and white people following you. Because that has always 117 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: been that sort of red line that white power has 118 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 3: always worried about. That has always been the great fear. 119 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: And so what we see with Daddy Grace in saying 120 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: I'm only going to speak to the integrated crowds is 121 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: he's not abiding by the lines demarcation that had been 122 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: established to keep black people and white people apart. And 123 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 3: even if it's just a handful of people who are 124 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: going to be connected or going to come over. That 125 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: poses a real threat. 126 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: When a black man was unafraid to stand up for 127 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: what he believes in and seemed fearless in the face 128 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: of white authority, that man was often considered dangerous, especially 129 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: if that man could command a crowd. Marcus Garvey was 130 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: another such man. Like Daddy Grace, he too was an immigrant. 131 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: Like Daddy Grace, he was also a captivating figure. He 132 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: spoke out for his people, not only for black people 133 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: in America, but for the liberation of black people around 134 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: the world. But by doing this, Garvey became a target. 135 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: In fact, he marks the beginning of the rise of j. 136 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover, the future director of the FBI. At the time, though, 137 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: Hoover was still working his way up through the Justice 138 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: Department and he was tasked with taking down Marcus Garvey. 139 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: Hoover understood one important thing about Marcus Garvey and men 140 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: like him. They got their power from the people. So 141 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: the only way to destroy that power was to ruin 142 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: those men in the eyes of their people using allegations, rumors, 143 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: and printed lies. So Hoover did something he otherwise would 144 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: have never done. He hired the Bureau of Investigation's first 145 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: full time black agent, in order to infiltrate Garvey's social 146 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: justice movement. He knew the most effective way to attack 147 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: Garvy was from the inside. 148 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: It worked. 149 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: Garvey was soon charged and convicted of mail fraud. After 150 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: he served prison time, he was deported. Using black secret 151 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: agents became a favorite tactic of the government as they 152 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: tried to destabilize other black led efforts like the Civil 153 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: Rights movement and the Black Panther Party for Self Defense 154 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: or leaders like Noble ju Ali, Elijah Muhammad, and Malcolm X, 155 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: and also Daddy Grace. In nineteen forty one, with World 156 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: War II raging in Europe, the FBI received a tip 157 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: from an informant that Daddy Grace was a communist and 158 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: that he was trying to incite his followers to riot 159 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: against white people, So they sent agents to church services 160 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: to see if they could pin anything on him. It's 161 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of ironic if you think about it, because of 162 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: all the claims against him, being a communist was perhaps 163 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: the most far fetched. Daddy Grace had fully embraced capitalism 164 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: and understood the power of money in America. It was 165 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: so clear that even the FBI agreed after a few 166 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: months they dropped the investigation, but that doesn't mean that 167 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: they were happy about it. 168 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: I think it's important that we understand that these things 169 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 3: are not accidental. There is a pattern of targeting influential 170 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: African Americans who have this large following. 171 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 4: Jaye Goo Hoover. 172 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: He's motivated by this idea, and he writes about this 173 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: in the late nineteen sixties in a memo internal memo 174 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 3: designed to explain America's counterintelligence program, which was those efforts 175 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: designed to undermine civil rights a black power activist, he writes, 176 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 3: our principal objective is to prevent the rise of a 177 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: black messiah. This is what he had always been worried about, right, 178 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: is the rise of a black messiah, whether we're talking 179 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 3: about Marcus Garvey or Jack Johnson or Stokely Carmichael or 180 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 3: Martin Luther King or Daddy Grace. 181 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: Minister Lewis Farrakhan, who's headed the Nation of Islam for 182 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: the past forty years, has also been a target of 183 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: the FBI. So he is more than aware of how 184 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: rumors were used to discredit powerful black men, including in 185 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's earra As he told an audience in nineteen 186 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: eighty three, there came. 187 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 4: Strong voices of liberation Marcus Garve, Nobo true Ali, And 188 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 4: in that same hearing you get a man like father 189 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 4: Devine right. 190 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 5: Daddy Grapes. 191 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 4: And prophet Joke. Now you may say, oh, look, don't 192 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 4: tell me about them Charlatans, Hold on, We're not gonna 193 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 4: deal with what people were or are by characterization. I 194 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: want us to deal with what they contributed to our 195 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 4: being where we are. They taught us something if we 196 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 4: open our eyes and look. 197 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: Did have a lot to teach, and he did a 198 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: lot for his congregation. 199 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 2: But he was. 200 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: Also a man with flaws like everyone, and in some 201 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: instances some of the rumors did have merits. So even 202 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: as Daddy Grace fought the fear mongering of Hoover, the government, 203 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: and the press, there were black people voice and criticisms 204 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: worth listening to. For one, black women had to pay 205 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: for his assent and satisfaction. Throughout his time as the 206 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: head of the church, there were rumors of affairs and 207 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: illegitimate children, and there were other troubling accusations, ones that 208 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: led to a manack trial of his own and ones 209 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: that nearly caused his downfall. In nineteen thirty four, Daddy 210 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: Grace was tried in a New York City court for 211 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: allegedly violating the man. The government claimed that in nineteen 212 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: thirty two, during a car ride from Brooklyn to Philadelphia, 213 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: he had tried to rape a house of Prayer member 214 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: Minnie Lee Campbell, then around eighteen or nineteen years old, 215 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: and that later, while at his house in Washington, d c. 216 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: The same one I walked by and marveled at, he 217 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: had convinced Minnie Lee to sleep with him. She later 218 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: had a son, who she named Charles, after the man 219 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: she said was his father. Even though what happened to 220 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: Minnie Lee was at the center of the case, Minnie 221 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: Lee's well being didn't seem to be of much concern 222 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: to anyone, including the press. It was more about Daddy Grace. 223 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: Newspapers covered what he wore, what he said, how he 224 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: and his followers, many of who were in attendance at 225 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: the trial behaved. Daddy Grace's lawyer did focus on Minni Lee, 226 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: but mostly to try to prove that she was promiscuous, 227 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: meaning that her son Charles well his father could have 228 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: been anyone, and the prosecutor for the government seemed only 229 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: mildly interested in what Daddy Grace's intentions with Minny Lee were. Instead, 230 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: he was more fixed on discrediting the United House of Prayer. 231 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: He questioned Bishop Grace about the origins of his church, 232 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: his religious training, and what he actually did in his 233 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: role as a preacher. Reading between the lines of this 234 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: not so subtle racism, the question seems to be how 235 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: could a man who looks like this have so much power? 236 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: But did he do it? 237 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was found guilty by a jury of twelve 238 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: white men and sentenced to a year and a day 239 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: in prison. A week after the trial, Daddy Grace was 240 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: preaching in Newport News, Virginia. Defiant in his conviction and 241 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: proclaiming his innocence. He appealed to the crowd, saying, only 242 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: the court of the Almighty is the one who can 243 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: pass judgment. Conviction is not guilt. Christ was convicted, but 244 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: was he guilty? He also appealed legally, and later that 245 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: year the case was overturned. It wasn't an absolution of guilt. 246 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: The appeal was. 247 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: On a technicality about what had happened where. If the 248 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: alleged crime had happened in DC, then the new York 249 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: Court didn't have jurisdiction, but for Daddy Grace it was 250 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: good enough. He was once again an innocent man, though 251 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: he didn't address the trial explicitly. Again, the entire experience 252 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: and the support he got from his congregation must have 253 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: stayed with him. You hear it in this sermon which 254 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: was recorded near the end of his life. 255 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 6: Remember what I say, if we together will stay together, 256 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 6: fuse together, we will sam or divide it we will fall. 257 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: Honestly, I really wrestled with how to tell this part 258 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: of Daddy Grace's story. He lived such a monumental life 259 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: and I want to make sure that the legacy he 260 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: built through his church isn't forgotten. But I also have 261 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: a lot of hesitation uplifting someone who could be a 262 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: sexual predator, and knowing how my grandfather, a man so 263 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: well respected in the Cape Verdian community, was against Daddy Grace. 264 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: That also gave me pause. Was my Papa right? I mean, 265 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace did try to get my nana, who was 266 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: just a teenager, to go off on the road with him. 267 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: The toughest part has been that so much is still unknown, 268 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: and Daddy Grace and most people who knew him personally, 269 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: aren't around to fill in the blanks, So I've just 270 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: tried to look at. 271 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: The facts that exist. 272 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: On the one hand, you have a documented pattern of 273 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: the government using the Man Act to try to take 274 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: down powerful black men, men they felt disrupted their social order. 275 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: On the other hand, basically everyone from the prosecution, the defense, 276 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace himself seemed to have very little consideration for 277 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: Minnie Lee as a person in nineteen thirty four. There's 278 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: no believe women narrative here, especially if it's a black woman. 279 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: And from my contemporary perspective, it's hard not to see 280 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: the power dynamic between Minnie Lee, a young parishioner, and 281 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace, the much older, much wealthier leader of her church. 282 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: But still I want to be fair to Daddy Grace, 283 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: to measure him against the standards of his own time. 284 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: Men in the nineteen thirties were rightly or wrongly, given 285 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: a certain amount of latitude in their behavior towards women 286 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: and the Man Act. It does have racist origins. 287 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 6: So, as I. 288 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: Often do when I find myself needing to make sense 289 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: of contradictions, I sat down again with Darryl Stewart, a 290 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: producer on the show. 291 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 7: Sweet Daddy, Grace did a lot of good for his people. 292 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 7: We cannot argue that. We know that, but he also 293 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 7: had a lot going on. Is it possible for a 294 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 7: person to have both light and dark, to do both 295 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 7: some great. 296 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: Things, and to also have some areas. 297 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 7: That, as my third grade teacher would say, need to 298 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 7: improve me. What are your thoughts on that? 299 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: I believe the answer to that question is yes. I 300 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: think that it is possible to be both a man 301 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: of faith or a woman of faith and also be 302 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: a person that is that has faults and flaws. 303 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: And is with sin. 304 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: We are here on this earth living a human experience, 305 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: and part of that experience is making mistakes, and I 306 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: think that there's not a person that doesn't have those things. 307 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: I think that it doesn't cancel. 308 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: Out the good that you may have done, or the 309 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: leadership that you may have. 310 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 7: Do government leaders, cultural leaders, spiritual leaders have a different 311 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 7: responsibility because of their title, because of their position in 312 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 7: the world. Or are we all offered or should we 313 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 7: all be offered that same grace? 314 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 8: Right? 315 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: So here's the plan where it's grace. I do believe 316 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: that everybody should have a certain amount of grace afforded 317 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: to them for whatever transgressions. 318 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: They may have. 319 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: However, I do think that when you're in a position 320 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: of leadership, that there's a certain amount of responsibility that's 321 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: been placed upon you. And I think that you are 322 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: going to be held to a different standard because you're 323 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: in a position of leadership. People are looking up to you. 324 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: Can you make mistakes, yes, Can you be forgiven for 325 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: those mistakes? 326 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: Yes. 327 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 7: Daddy Grace was sentenced to prison for a year and 328 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 7: a day after he was found guilty on a charge 329 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 7: of violating the Man Act. So Daddy Grace got involved 330 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 7: in effect. And I want to say, for me, as 331 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 7: a lover of history and as a black man myself, 332 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 7: I understand that sometimes these webs can be complicated because 333 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 7: there's so many different lenses by which to look at this, right, 334 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 7: But I'm curious to know what do you think this 335 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 7: was all about? What do you think this was really about? 336 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: So Okay, initial sort of reaction to this, and especially 337 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: after my conversation with doctor Jeffries and having a bit 338 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: more understanding about why the Man Act was created in 339 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: the first place, which of course gives me a lot 340 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: of pause, But in thinking specifically about Daddy Grace in 341 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: this case, it's it's confusing to me. Now, is it 342 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: possible that they had a consensual sexual interaction? I think 343 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: it is possible. Daddy Grace was a man. I mean, 344 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: this is a man who had a lot of power, 345 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: who and resources and could do pretty much whatever he wanted. 346 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: So did he maybe find this woman attractive and did 347 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: he maybe say, hey, you know, I'll give you a job, 348 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 1: and you know, hey, let's let's have a good time tonight. 349 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: You know. 350 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: I think it's curious that he did provide her with 351 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: some measure of financial support. 352 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: That she did and she did accept it. 353 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 7: Mm hm. 354 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: So I think it's quite possible that something did happen 355 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: between them. And I also think that it's quite possible that, 356 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: especially in that time, that that could have brought down 357 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's entire mission because people would have slandered him. 358 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: And I think there were way too many things at 359 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: stake for something like this to bring down the whole 360 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: entire church. 361 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: There's too many hounds to be fed. 362 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 7: I'm so glad that you mentioned public ridicule. We know 363 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 7: that being a preacher in the black community comes with 364 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 7: a certain amount of public ridicule, the men envy you 365 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 7: because of the perceived power authority and anointing the women's 366 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 7: fan girl after you're adorning you with words of affirmation 367 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 7: and gifts of hospitality, their loyalty and service. But in 368 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 7: some ways that also makes the leader vulnerable. Do you 369 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 7: think that black creatures and other religious leaders were maybe 370 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 7: jealous of Daddy Grace and or white preachers and leaders 371 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 7: and would have benefited them to participate in the assassination 372 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 7: of his character. 373 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 2: Yes, I do. 374 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: Actually, I think it's really difficult to reach that level 375 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: of success and not have people try to take you 376 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: down and be jealous. But not just jealous, because to me, 377 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: jealousy says you have something that I want, but I 378 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: can get it if I work hard enough. But envy 379 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: is something entirely different. Envy says you have something that 380 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: I can never have. And I think a lot of 381 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: people were envious of Daddy Grace because they saw that 382 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: he was able to not only it's not just about 383 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: the wealth that he amassed, it's the amount of loyalty 384 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: and you know, belief in him that he had, and 385 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: that is something that money can't buy. Money can't buy loyalty. 386 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: Money can't buy followers. And I think what was probably 387 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: most dangerous about Daddy Grace was the amount of power 388 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: that he exerted over his congregation. And so I wouldn't 389 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: think that it would be above the government if they 390 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: were trying to find a way to bring him down, 391 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: to tap into vulnerable people in his congregation that were 392 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: close to him, or were even on the periphery, to 393 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: try to find ways to take him down. It could 394 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: be either or it just depends on what lens you 395 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: look at it. Daddy Grace, like many of us, was 396 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: a complex man, and not everything he did or said 397 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: can be cleanly explained. That's added to some of the 398 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: mystery and intrigue around him. 399 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 8: I think there are parts of him we don't understand, 400 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 8: So for that reason people maybe want to keep them 401 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 8: at arm's length. They're not sure how much of his 402 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 8: work should be celebrated, or how much there might be 403 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 8: to be uncovered about something bad he did or something 404 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 8: we won't like. But it revolves around these things of 405 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 8: money and flamboyance and was he exploiting people? Those are 406 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 8: all still questions that kind of linger. 407 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: Doctor Marie Dollam is a professor of American religion and 408 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: Associate dean at the University of Oklahoma. She's the author 409 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: of the book Daddy Grace, a Celebrity Preacher and His 410 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: House of Prayer, and she is very familiar with the 411 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: controversies surrounding him. 412 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 8: I don't think he was trying to exploit people in 413 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 8: the sense that some people have suggested he was. I 414 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 8: tend to think he was someone who was sincere in 415 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 8: what he was doing. That he couldn't spend forty years 416 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 8: as a religious leader just pulling the wool over people's eyes. 417 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: To the contrary, doctor Dalam sees how the way Daddy 418 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: Grace behaved and stilled the sense of pride and belonging 419 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 1: to his congregation. 420 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 8: The way he carried himself, the way he had people 421 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 8: wait on him. He had a hierarchy going that was 422 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 8: palpable in the church, and I think there was something 423 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 8: special about that. People could feel like they were part 424 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 8: of this really important church. They owned lots of property, 425 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,239 Speaker 8: there was lots of glamour attached to that, but he 426 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 8: had a status that was above them right, and there 427 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 8: was a kind of buy in that was necessary to 428 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 8: make that happen. 429 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that She also doesn't struggle with 430 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: how to reconcile some of the contradictions around him. 431 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 8: I hate to think ill of him because I feel 432 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 8: protective of Daddy Grace. I feel like so many people 433 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 8: have tried to tear him down. I don't want to 434 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 8: be one more person who's doing that. But in honesty, 435 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 8: I think there's probably some truth in a lot of 436 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 8: those accusations. Perhaps not to the extent and the extent 437 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 8: dreams that people were saying, but you know, I wouldn't 438 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 8: be surprised if some of them were somewhat true. For example, 439 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 8: the Man Act violation where he supposedly raped his female 440 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 8: companion in the car as they were traveling. Did he 441 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 8: do that? I don't know, But I do know that 442 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 8: when you read the transcript of the trial, it's very 443 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 8: clear that all of the witnesses on his side were 444 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 8: heavily prepared. They say the exact same thing, and it's 445 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 8: too close for coincidence. So there's something in there that 446 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 8: he didn't want people to know. What did he not 447 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 8: want people to know? 448 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: You know, that's a history. 449 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: And then there was the Irs. The Irs went after 450 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace repeatedly for not filing taxes for failing to 451 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: report income for not being taxes on the large offerings 452 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: given to the church by its parishioners. He fought those 453 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: charges and he usually won, but it was constant tax fraud. 454 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 8: Yeah, probably was that deliberate or was that just he 455 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 8: wasn't fully aware of how one needs to manage a 456 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 8: multimillion dollar church. That's entirely possible, right, How would he 457 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 8: have learned how to manage finances in the legal way? 458 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 8: I don't know that he would have, So, Yeah, I 459 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 8: think there's potential truth in all of that, but I 460 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 8: don't think that's really what we need to focus on, 461 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 8: because who among us doesn't have a dark secret or too? Right, 462 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 8: we just don't happen to be as famous. 463 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: For many people in my family, especially the older generations, 464 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: these secrets were enough to rule Daddy Grace out, to 465 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: consider him a fraud, a crook, a con man, and 466 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: to completely deny any relation. And though I don't agree 467 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: with them, I understand where they're coming from. As black immigrants, 468 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: they were told by white society that they weren't worth 469 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: very much. Their standing in America was fragile enough that 470 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: they didn't want to do anything to disrupt it. Including 471 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: associating with someone like Daddy Grace, who was considered so 472 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: as my Aunt Judy said out there. 473 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 9: What I have heard about Bishop Grace and all that 474 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 9: he has brought to his people is something that we 475 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 9: all can learn from. How about owning your own stuff, 476 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 9: how about not having no date? Not just about his 477 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 9: long nails and how people would what's. 478 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 5: The matter with Daddy? 479 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 9: He's all right. He taught and set the foundation for 480 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 9: his people to be dead free all their own property. 481 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: Reverend Louise Scott Rowntree is a council member at Large 482 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: for the City of Newark, New Jersey. Her mother, Madame 483 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: Louise Scott, was thought to be the city's first black 484 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: female millionaire. A self made woman, she built her fortune 485 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: by opening a salon selling beauty products and later opening 486 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: up multiple shops and even a beauty school. Reverend Roundtree 487 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: is very familiar with Daddy Grace and everything he accomplished, 488 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: because in some ways you could say that there are 489 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: parallels between the lives of Daddy Grace and her own mother. 490 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: You know, my mother had. 491 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 9: To work, so was she She really carried God with 492 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 9: her being an African American during those times when you 493 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 9: know racism. 494 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: Was high, and you had to have that. 495 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 9: Because people say something to you that might make you 496 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 9: either hurt them or you get hurt by your response. 497 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, Madame Louise Scott purchased a twenty 498 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: six room mansion in the heart of Newark. It had 499 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 1: been built in the eighteen eighties by a local beer baron, 500 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: Gottfried Krueger. The Krueger Mansion was now the Krueger Scott Mansion. 501 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: Many people couldn't believe a black woman could own such 502 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: an extravagant building, but for Reverend Rowntree, who grew up there, 503 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: it was just a home. 504 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 9: To be honest with you, I didn't know have any 505 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 9: idea who my mother was. I didn't have any idea 506 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 9: of where I lived. It was just all my life. 507 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 9: It was like I didn't realize the greatness of any 508 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 9: of this. 509 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: And besides her entrepreneurial skills, Reverend Rowntree also admired her 510 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: mother's commitment to faith. It's what drives her too. 511 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 9: That will overseeing inter faith alliance where I tell people 512 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 9: that it's not about their religion, it's about humanity. So 513 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 9: we're gonna love each other. We're gonna play together. And 514 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 9: I got that from my mother. My mother I never 515 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 9: saw treat anybody different like. She never put any airs 516 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 9: on when she gotten certain. She was so busy being busy. 517 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was also a busy man, busy with his church, 518 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: the members, and all of his enterprises. But here's the thing. 519 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: With all his time spent on the house of prayer, 520 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's relationships with much of his own family were complicated. 521 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: His two marriages ended in divorce, and in nineteen forty seven, 522 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: his son Norman was tragically killed in a car accident 523 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: while on his way to meet Daddy. 524 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: Grace in Charlotte. 525 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: The aftermath of his death strained his relationship with Norman's sister, 526 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: his daughter Irene. They didn't seem to talk much after that, 527 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: and his son Marcellino from his second marriage, was diagnosed 528 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: with schizophrenia and had problems with the law. Daddy Grace 529 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: supported him financially for a while, but eventually seemed to 530 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: distance himself from him. Reverend Rowntree understands how being a 531 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,439 Speaker 1: leader and being in service to other people can take 532 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: away from your own personal life. 533 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 5: Family gets really pushed to the side a lot because 534 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 5: of the sacrifices based on what you've committed to, what 535 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 5: position you're in. So in my case, there's a lot 536 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 5: of things bad I look back on as as I 537 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 5: could have done different while working in government, being a 538 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,959 Speaker 5: parent becomes a challenge during things, a family becomes a challenge. 539 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 5: Trying to make time for you becomes a challenge if 540 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 5: you're committed to the work. 541 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 9: If you're not committed, then nothing's challenge. 542 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 8: You just do. 543 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 5: But if you're committed, there can be multiple challenges based. 544 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 9: On what you have going on in your life. 545 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace did have family. 546 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: He was close to. 547 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: Family who were involved in the church, like his sisters 548 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: Louise and Sylvia, who frequently accompanied him on the road, 549 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: and many nieces and nephews as well, And of course 550 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: he was constantly surrounded by church elders, Grace soldiers, and 551 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: Grace maids. But in many ways he was alone. Doctor 552 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: Marie Dollom also wondered about Daddy Grace's personal relationships. 553 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 8: He seemed to have a kind of on again, off 554 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 8: again thing with the first wife, and then the second 555 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 8: one was came and went fairly quickly. They just didn't 556 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 8: quite add up to me, especially For such a famous guy, 557 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 8: you think he'd want someone by his side, who's the 558 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 8: capable companion, who can be the equivalent female in the church. 559 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 8: It was surprising that he never found someone like that 560 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 8: to be there with him. 561 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: You know. 562 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: As a self professed workaholic, I kind of took that 563 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: as I wonder if that's what it was like he 564 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: was married to the church that took precedence over everything. 565 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: It seems like his work was the thing he was 566 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: most faithful to his entire life, and maybe he didn't 567 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: want to share that with anybody. 568 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 8: You know what, That's a really beautiful way to put it, 569 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 8: and you may be totally right on that. Yeah, that 570 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 8: was his loyalty right there. 571 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was clearly a man on a mission. Although 572 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: there are differing opinions about what that mission was, no 573 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: one can doubt that what he accomplished in his lifetime 574 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: was momentous, whether you agree with his methods or not. 575 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: For him, it was about saving souls and making sure 576 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: that his people were prosperous and living within the kingdom 577 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: that he built here on earth. And to do this 578 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: as an African immigrant, as a black man in America, 579 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: meant he paid the price. There is no doubt that 580 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: he benefited from the spoils of his work, but constant 581 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: surveillance by government entities around his church and his businesses, jealousy, 582 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: mistrust by his fellow Cape Verdians, contentious relationships, and family 583 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: fractures were the sacrifices that he made to build his 584 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: vision and fulfill the calling that brought him to America. 585 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: My own family worked hard to distance themselves from Daddy Grace, 586 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 1: even though there were multiple ties and connections. The feeling 587 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: in my gut has driven me to find the truth 588 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: in spite of what people might think or feel. I've 589 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: spent years working on this show, traveled across the Atlantic 590 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: several times, and poured over documents trying to discover the truth. 591 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: Is Daddy Grace really my family? And will I ever 592 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: figure this out? That's next time in the final episode 593 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: of Sweet Daddy Grace. Sweet Daddy Grace is a production 594 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: of iHeart Podcasts and Force, a media group. This show 595 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: is hosted by Me Marcy de Pina. It's written and 596 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: produced by Marissa Brown and Me. Our story editors are 597 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedel, and Zarren Burnett. Editing sound design 598 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: and theme music by Jonathan Washington, Additional editing by Matt Russell, 599 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: show cover art by Viviana Salgado of Studio Creative Group. 600 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive producers are Marcy 601 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: Depina and Jason English. Special thanks to Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore, 602 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu Phillip of iHeartMedia, and 603 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: all of my family members who talk to me for 604 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: this show, my ancestors, the United House of Prayer for 605 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: All People, and the countless number of people who shared 606 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace with me. Thanks also 607 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor Danielle brun Sigler, whose 608 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: academic work on Sweet Daddy Grace has been incredibly helpful. 609 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: And finally, I want to thank Bishop Grace himself for 610 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 1: choosing me to tell his story. For more information on 611 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out the website Sweet Daddy 612 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 1: Grace and follow me at Marci Dapina on all social 613 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: platforms