WEBVTT - Weirdhouse Cinema Rewind: Labyrinth 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:09.240 Hey, you welcome to Weird House Cinema. Rewind on this episode. Ooh, 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.720 this is our look at the nineteen eighty six fantasy 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.680 musical Labyrinth, starring David Bowie and Jennifer Connolly, one of 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:22.360 my all time favorite movies. This episode originally published nine thirteen, 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.520 twenty twenty four. Let's venture in. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:36.320 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:40.640 Hey you welcome to Weird House Cinema. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.760 This is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormack. And 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.800 today on Weird House Cinema, we're going to be talking 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.400 about a childhood classic, I think for many people roughly 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:54.040 our age or between our ages, the nineteen eighty six 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:59.720 musical fantasy film Labyrinth, starring Jennifer Connolly and David Bowie, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.960 directed by Jim Henson. I was thinking, this is actually 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:08.319 our second David Bowie film, since we did previously cover 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.240 Nicholas Robes The Man Who Fell to Earth, a very interesting, 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.080 very good, but mood withering film about an alien who 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.480 comes to our planet on a mission to save his 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.520 own from catastrophic drought, but gets derailed by our culture's 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:28.200 infinite and infinitely absorbing distractions. Like television, alcohol and table tennis. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.280 You remember all the ping pong and The Man Who 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:30.880 Fell to Earth. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.440 I had kind of forgotten about the ping pong until 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.560 you mentioned it, but that's a solid point. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:41.520 Yeah. So, while it also stars David Bowie, Labyrinth, I 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.160 think is about as different a movie from The Man 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.600 Who Fell to Earth as one could possibly imagine. Bowie's 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.600 film career did have a lot of range. But thinking 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.920 about this actually raised a kind of humorous question for me, 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.880 are there any similarities between the two movies? And the 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.360 more I thought about it, I thought, actually, they're kind 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.400 of are, especially in the overall plot structure and the 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.040 journey of the hero. Both are stories in which the 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.280 hero or heroine is transported to an alien world on 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.120 an originally selfless quest to save their family or a 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.200 family member from a terrible fate, but faces obstacles along 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.960 the way, primarily in the form of temptations to go 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:28.000 off the path into narcissistic, self indulgent pursuits. So, in 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.919 the case of Labyrinth, the heroine is played by a 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.519 young Jennifer Connolly, whose quest is to rescue her baby 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.800 brother from a goblin related predicament of her own making 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:43.040 and Connolly's character is. I like the character because she 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.000 is smart and brave, but begins the story as a 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:52.919 very believable teenager, so self pitying and self absorbed, infuriated 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.720 by the inconvenience of having to look after her screeching 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.360 baby brother for an evening and wanting simultaneously to be 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.680 free of her family and achieve adult independence, but also 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.280 at the same time to regress into childhood and avoid 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.120 all responsibilities, like you know, hiding in her bedroom with 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.320 her dolls and costumes. And thus her challenges in the 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.359 movie reflect these very common and relatable teenage character issues, 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.960 like she's tempted along the way to give into defeatism 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.960 and selfishness in the forms of both self pity and 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.639 self indulgence. But in the end she emerges much more 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.399 successfully than Bowie's character and the Man Who Fell to Earth, though, 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:35.000 as we were discussing off Mike before recording, the exact 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.360 mechanics of her victory over the goblin King Jarreth are 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.400 somewhat difficult to schematize. 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.000 That's right. This is a movie that I've seen so 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.240 many times over the years, as a child, as an adult, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.400 you know, as a parent, and so forth, and no 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.920 matter what phase of my life I am in, I 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.360 never completely get the details on how she defeats Jareth, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:02.720 but I never doubt the victory like it's the emotional 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.000 accuracy of it feels one hundred percent there. This is 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.360 a film that will come back to this, I think 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.760 over and over again, but I think it speaks more 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.960 on an emotional level than it does on a logical level. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.720 And I can't help but assume that that is one 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.760 of the factors playing into the disconnect between the way 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.080 the adult world reacted to this film when it came 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.080 out in eighty six and the way scores and scores 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.120 of children reacted to it over the years is they 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:31.480 grew up with the film. 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.159 Yeah, I think we'll have a lot to say about 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.840 this as we go on, but oh, we haven't yet 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:38.640 gotten to one of the main things you would need 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.320 to know to understand Labyrinth if you've never seen it 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.360 and have no idea of what's going on here, and 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.760 that it's a movie full of muppets. This is a 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.960 Jim Hinson production, so the fantasy elements and characters are 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.440 achieved through the use of some of the best puppetry 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.160 ever committed to film. Labyrinth came out a few years 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.880 after Hinson's previous fantasy movie, The Dark Chris from nineteen 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.600 eighty two, which I would say personally is probably the 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.800 high watermark for puppetry driven movies, Like I don't know 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.719 what could really be said to surpass it, and it's 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.840 interesting to compare the two films. We might also discuss 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.560 that more as we go on. But coming back to 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.040 what you were saying, Rob, about the way children reacted 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.960 to Labyrinth versus the way a lot of adults did. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.520 I also, yeah, I get the impression that for a 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.640 lot of people who were kids in the eighties, Labyrinth 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.560 was just part of the common texture of childhood, as 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:42.160 uncritically accepted and culturally canonical as Star Wars or Et 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.240 or the mainline muppets like Kermit and Miss Piggy. 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.440 Was that your experience, Rob, Yeah, I mean I don't 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.520 remember how exactly Labyrinth was initially introduced into our lives. 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.159 I think maybe we rented it from the video store 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.800 on VHS, but we liked it so much that we 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.839 purchased a VHS CU of Labyrinth. We watched it so 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.840 many times that we broke the VHS tape and we 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.440 actually had to go take it to be repaired. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.160 I don't even know what repaired. 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.240 Yeah, we had it repaired. I don't know who did 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.200 that kind of thing. You know what the price point was, 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.640 I assumed cheaper than buying a new VHS tape. So 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.960 it was repaired and returned to us. But after that, 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.840 the audio and the tape was warped from there on out. 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.640 So part of me still sort of pines for a 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.680 certain like electronic warping sound to be present in the 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:34.719 film even when it's not. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.880 What does the fire Gang song sound like when it's 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:44.039 even more discombobulated, it sounds weirder and more threatening? Okay, 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.320 I know, as if that were possible. How about you, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.680 do you remember how Labyrinth came into your life show? Well, actually, 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.560 I'm this is weird because I feel like I should 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.680 know for sure one way or another about this, but 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.320 I can only say what I think is the case. 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.640 I think I actually never saw this movie in full 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.760 when I was a kid, and yet I had full 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.120 awareness of it as like a movie that was part 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.440 of the common culture and that everybody liked. And I 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.280 think I really never sat down and saw the whole 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:15.760 thing until I was an adult. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.160 Yeah, there's certainly a lot of movies like that where 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.360 they're just I mean, it's really a film like this 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:22.920 becomes a part of the atmosphere. You can't help but 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.480 breathe it in, and you have no idea how it 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.920 originally came into your house. I just seep through the walls. 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:29.760 But I will have some more things to say about 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.000 it when we get back to I don't know, maybe 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.960 when we talk about the critical reception. I do remember 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.440 being surprised by some things about it when I saw it, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.960 either for the first time ever in my life or 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.360 for the first time as an adult, whichever that was. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.240 You know, when I saw it in my thirties, it 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.960 wasn't exactly what I expected, And maybe we can talk 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.240 about some reasons for that when we get into some 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.080 stuff about the critical reception. Yeah, but don't misinterpret me. 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.119 I love LAB. I mean, it's just it's a trip. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.080 There's not there's not really anything like it. 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:04.760 Uh. 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.400 The closest I could compare it to, I guess is 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.880 The Dark Crystal. But actually that's a totally different kind 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.120 of story, totally different kind of world and movie. 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:12.840 Uh. 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.680 There there really just is nothing like Labyrinth they can 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:16.040 think of. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.080 Yeah, yeah, I mean it is. It's in many ways, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.080 as we'll discuss. It's a it was the logical next 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.200 step after Dark Crystal, but it and it is as 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:28.120 ambitious a film in some respects in its use of 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.000 groundbreaking puppetry, you know, pushing the boundaries of what puppetry 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.120 can do, while also looking to puppetry's past and finding 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:40.160 things to uh, you know, to to to utilize and reinvent. 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:42.760 But it is a very different story. It's a very 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.040 different like entertainment product in its own way. Yeah, So 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.400 we'll get into some of those differences and similarities as 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.040 we go here. All right, Well, let's go ahead and 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.360 hear just a little trailer audio for Jim Hinson's Labyrinth. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:03.480 Try Star Pictures announcing the collaboration of three extraordinary talents 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.200 Jim Henson, creator of The Muppets and Dark Crystal. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.280 Where you go what I ate like that? 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:24.840 George Lucas, creator of the Star Wars saga m and 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:34.280 one of the most innovative forces in modern entertainment, David Bowie. 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.400 Together they will take you into a dazzling world of 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:39.880 fantasy and adventure. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.840 There's nothing to be afraid of a world. 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.760 Where anything seems possible and nothing is what it seems. 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.679 Everything I've done, I've done for you. 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:13.000 I move the stars with no fun the world of Labyrinth. 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.000 All Right, if you want to go watch Labyrinth or 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.320 rewatch Labyrinth before proceeding with the rest of this podcast episode, 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.320 well more power to you. This one is widely available 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.959 in all formats and the special This is one of 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.160 those releases where I feel like the special editions just 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.800 keep rolling out. The limited editions. Steal book from shout 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:42.640 Factory looks really good. I was just getting some social 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.360 media ads about this the other day, and I feel 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.000 like it's one of these things where I don't own 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:51.600 Labyrinth on any like a special edition physical media release, 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.080 but I'm always tempted to get one, And each time 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:55.400 they roll out a new and I'm like, oh, this 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:56.840 is the one, This is the one I should get. 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.280 That they keep upping the ante. But yeah, there are 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.520 a number of been a number of releases, and again 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.160 that shall Factory product looks really nice. You know. 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.680 I wonder if to people out in the disc publishing world, 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.559 is it especially movies that have nostalgic tie ins to 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.480 people's childhood that are most likely to get bought up 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.160 with these like big elaborate special edition Blu rays and 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.480 boxes that you know, the special cases and the posters 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.160 and all the accessories that come with them. I would 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.080 have to think that nostalgia is a big driver in 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:30.440 selling these kind of things. 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.199 Yeah, I would guess so. But then again, I look 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.040 at my own experience and I think the most money 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.120 I've ever paid for a Blu Ray was for a 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.920 special edition of Fool Cheese Conquest that came with a 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.079 special slipcase. And I can't quite explain why, because this 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.800 is not a movie I watched as a child. I 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.760 don't have that kind of deep nostalgia for it. But 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.120 I have a certain depth of nostalgia for the film, 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.360 and for some reason, it's like I had to have it, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.160 you know. Maybe it's like the fomo of a special 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.280 release slipcase and you're just like some I've missed this, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.680 I must have it. Yes, I will pay extra for 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:04.360 it on eBay. 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.520 There is something really perversely enjoyable about getting an elaborate, lavish, 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.600 lovingly produced edition of a movie that is grimy and 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.359 gauzy and is just really concerned with pus. 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.640 Yeah. Yeah, it has a prized place in the drawer 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.600 where I keep the discs. All right, well, let's get 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.040 into the folks involved in the creation of this picture, 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.360 starting at the top, of course, with Jim Henson. This 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.680 is the first time we've really talked about Jim Henson 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.760 on the show before, you know, in depth. You know, 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.320 work comes up time and time again, and I'm blanking 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.160 on to what extent we've ever discussed something that the 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.560 Creature Shop was involved in. It's possible the Creature Shop 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.880 has come up directly in an episode or two, But 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.760 at any rate, Jim Henson is the director, he has 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.720 a story credit. He is also an uncredited Goblin performer. 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.240 There are a lot of Goblin performances in this puppetry wise, 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.960 he lived nineteen thirty six through nineteen ninety Easily one of, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.040 if not the most important puppeteers of the twentieth century. 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.520 I recently watched the excellent twenty twenty four documentary Jim 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.440 Hinson idea Man. This was directed by Ron Howard, and 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.320 I believe it's currently streaming on Disney in most places. 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.800 And this documentary does a really great, really entertaining job 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:23.360 of discussing Hintson largely from the standpoint of his ambition 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.040 and his dreams, also getting you know, a little bit 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.440 into his personal life, his family life, and of course 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.320 his professional life being like the main focus because it's 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.559 about you know, how all these ideas he had ultimately 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.760 the limited amount of time he had to pull them off. 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.920 And yeah, like he was a guy that's just constantly 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.960 coming up with concepts that so many things that didn't 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.000 even come to fruition, Like he really had all these 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.560 plans for a nightclub at one point. Yeah, Yeah, and 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.600 I'd seen these some illustrations, some concept art that he'd 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.280 put together for this at the Center for Puppetry Arts 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.920 in a museum display years ago. But they get into 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.199 in the documentary as well. New York's Hottest Club is 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:08.160 muppet essentially. Like even one of the things that they 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.400 drive home in that documentary is that even you know, 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.760 early on he was drawn more to the power of 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.000 television than he was to puppetry itself, though of course 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:20.680 puppetry became his core performance medium. And yeah, he continued 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.240 to push the boundaries of what was possible with puppets, 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.480 the sorts of audiences that could be reached through puppets 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.760 sometimes like initially like rebelling against you know, a box 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.360 that he helped draw for himself, like going from becoming 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.240 you know, the creator of Sesame Street in this you know, 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.080 huge property for children, and then breaking out in doing 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.400 something like The Muppet Show and beyond and again, you know, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.359 incorporating diverse traditions of puppetry along the way related performance 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.400 styles and pushing into new frontiers of things like animatronics, 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.360 which we see in this film, and even you know, 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.400 late in his career got a little bit into into 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.400 CGI and looking at what computer generated imagery could do, 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.720 though often through sort of the guise of puppetry, like 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.160 you know, some sort of like computer animated face that 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.560 is controlled by like live action puppeteering. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.000 Is the owl at the beginning of Labyrinth and the 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:17.600 credit sequence is that CGI? 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.360 I believe it is? Yeah, I believe that's like early 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.040 I would argue, largely effective CGI. It maybe doesn't look 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.680 as cool now as it did when I was a kid, 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.360 but it still looks pretty good. It's not you know, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.520 I feel like it mostly it's yeah for eighty six 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.040 especially Yeah. So, of course, Hinson is famous for his 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.600 Muppet bassed shows again, particularly Sesame Street and all the 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.360 various series and films to spin off of the Muppet Show. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.360 But of course his creative output also includes the excellent 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.200 Storyteller series we've referenced on the show before, both the 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.200 first season and then the Greek season. I still hold 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.400 those up as excellent. Nineteen eighty two's Dark Crystal, and 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.080 of course eighty six is Labyrinth. This would prove to 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.920 be his last full length of feature film directorial effort 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.920 before his untimely death in nineteen ninety at the age 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:06.560 of fifty three. 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.000 Yeah. So, I guess this brings us back to the 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.960 comparison between Labyrinth and The Dark Crystal. I love them both, 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.240 though I think the Dark Crystal is a little more 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.800 impressive to me just because of the format of its 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.360 storytelling and its ambitions in that regard, in that The 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.080 Dark Crystal has no human characters in it. You know, 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:29.200 the Dark Crystal is not a like a fairy tale 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.880 integrated with our world as a kind of you know, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.680 bridge fantasy from regular life like Labyrinth is, the Dark 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.160 Crystal is like a mythology that has nothing to do 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.320 with Earth, and there are no humans and no Earth 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.760 history and no Earth technology. It's just this totally different 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.840 world and everything in it is pure imagination. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.560 Yeah, I mean it's otherworldly, and and in fact that 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.360 the initial cut was maybe a little too otherworldly for 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:00.120 some test audiences because they had all these constructed languages, 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.680 so the sketchies are speaking a strange tongue and so forth, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.679 and they had to do like subsequent you know cuts 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:12.080 where they added actual like English language dialogue to the picture. So, 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:17.080 you know, the Dark Crystal was certainly like aiming for 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:22.840 something epic and strange and wonderful and achieve that. And 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.480 so Labyrinth seems to be an attempt to make something 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.399 that has the same vision and the same you know, 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.080 like level of detail going into every nook and cranny 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.520 of the picture, but also calibrating all of that more 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.879 towards like pure popular entertainment, you know, music, humor, whimsy, 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:43.359 and built everything around relatable human actors, one a youth 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.679 and the other a very popular musician. 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.760 Yeah, Labyrinth to me seems like it's taking a lot 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.480 of the same creativity and creative energy behind The Dark Crystal, 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:58.399 but lightening the tone a bit and connecting it to 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.440 the human world with a human and protagonist, and also 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.359 orienting the story a little. I mean, you could say 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.040 in both cases that probably the primary marketing was directed 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.480 towards kids. But the Dark Crystal is pretty as the 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.679 title would imply, dark and Labyrinth I think is probably 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:17.760 you would argue, a little bit more kid friendly. 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.320 Yeah, I mean you still I certainly know people in 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.600 real life who are like, yeah, I never liked Dark Crystal. 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.560 It was too scary for me. It's too scary for 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.240 me now. And that will come into play here in 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.000 a second, because when Labyrinth came out in eighty six, 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.640 it was famously a commercial and critical failure. It was 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.320 it was one of a certified bomb, you know, and 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.120 one that apparently, according to that documentary, hit Hintson really hard. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.560 You know. He ultimately was able to you know, to 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:50.639 roll with the punches and you know, move on to 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.120 the next thing. But I think, you know, everybody put 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.359 a lot of love into Labyrinth and were really bummed 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.320 out when critics didn't like it and when audiences didn't 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.480 come out to see it. But of course, says is 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.720 sometimes the case with films like this, the children did 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.359 end up seeing it. They might not have seen it 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.680 at the theater. Their parents might not have taken them, 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.560 but they ended up renting it or seeing it on television. 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.760 They told each other about it, they watched it, and 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.080 rewatched it. They grew up with it, and as such, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.200 it has built up this cult following over the years, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.239 and it has become this much beloved film that is 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.440 you know, does not in any way tarnish the careers 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.399 of those involved, but is sometimes like one of the 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:30.920 most iconic things they ever did. 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.560 Yeah, as I was saying earlier, it's one of those 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.919 movies where, again to sort of interpret my perception of 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.680 its place and culture, it was a movie where you wouldn't, 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.520 even if you were a child, question whether it was 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.520 good or not, or whether there could be anything wrong 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.119 with it. It's just like it's the canon. It is 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:51.640 the canon of storytelling. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.760 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and yeah, And like I said, you 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.000 grow up with them, and sometimes you do reevaluate these things, 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.240 but maybe they do have an advantage because they've been 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.720 with you so long. And if it's a film like Labyrinth, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.359 I feel like it's you know, its flaws are not 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.480 enough to defeat that fire that was implanted in you 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:15.399 early on with the film. But again, the grown up 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.359 world of film critics did not feel the same way. 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.000 I was reviewing some of these, and it's interesting. So 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:24.960 Leonard Malton, a mere four years before he was killed 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.840 by Grimlins and Grimlins two, he gave one of the 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:32.640 very few favorable like mainstream reviews for Labyrinth. Ebert gave 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:34.240 one that I think he gave it two out of 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.960 two stars total. And you know, like a like a 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.639 generally like an Ebert review, it's you know, it's not 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.399 unkind it it points out things he really likes, but 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.239 ultimately it doesn't see the logic in the picture. And 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.280 then Gene Siskel his review, if you want to dig 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.320 that one up, is one of the most brutal film 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:54.440 reviews I've ever seen. 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:55.560 I don't mad. 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.360 He is mad. Not only does he not like Labyrinth, 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.160 he seems to have hated everything about it and everyone 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:02.560 in it. 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.199 Yeah. Actually, so we were reading this off mic, and 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.639 this brought up a kind of funny difference between Ebert 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:11.920 and Siskel. You know, it's not across the board this way, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.919 but I feel like more often when Roger Ebert didn't 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:16.800 like a movie, he had a kind of sense of 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.919 humor about it, whereas Gene Siskel was more likely to 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.199 come off as like, really offended by the fact that 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.400 a movie was bad, like it bothered him. 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.960 Yeah, yeah, well that definitely holds true when you look 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.960 at Ciskel's review of Elabyrinth. Yeah, he called it quite 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:38.280 awful and visually ugly, which I mean, you know, say 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.080 what you will about Jim Henson pictures, and you know 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.080 you don't have to like them. But I mean, generally 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.040 most people acknowledge that there's a lot of, you know, 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:48.840 great visual design that goes into these things. But you know, 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.040 I don't know, everyone's entitled to their opinion. 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:56.840 I guess you might have different levels of personal tolerance, 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.720 and this might be a very learned thing. Tolerance for 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.240 ugly beautiful, like to see the beauty in designs that 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.600 are meant to be ugly but capture ugliness in an 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.520 exquisite way, which a lot of this movie does. It 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.000 has monsters in it that are not supposed to be like, 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.280 you know, Hoggle is not supposed to look super attractive, 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:22.160 but Hoggle looks wonderful. And the goblins are not supposed 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.040 to look like attractive people. They look like goblins, but 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:29.399 they are beautiful goblins. I feel like Ciskel is just 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:32.640 not approaching the movie with a tolerance for that kind 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:33.840 of ambition at all. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.720 Yeah. So again, critics hated it, and people who listen 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.240 to critics, you know, probably decided, well, maybe we'll skip 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:42.280 this one since everyone seems to hate it so much 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:45.720 or dislike it or find it lacking. And I was 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:50.360 reading an article or a chapter rather in The Wider 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.200 Worlds of Jim Henson. It's a book that came out 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.159 years back. There's a part in it by the author 0:22:56.280 --> 0:23:00.399 Tom Holst, and it's titled Finding Your Way through the Labyrinth, 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.800 and he points out that some parents are also thought 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.880 to have kept their kids away due to negative experiences 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.240 bringing them to see the Dark Crystal. Earlier, folks had heard, oh, 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.719 the Dark Crystal is going to be, you know, from 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:13.520 the maker of the Muppets in the Sesame Street, and 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:16.040 it was maybe a little too scary, and so that 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.720 might have kept them from going out to see Labyrinth 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.240 when it came out, for fear that there would be 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:24.520 a similar experience. Finally, this is another thing that Holst 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:26.920 points out. You can also look at Labyrinth in the 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.080 way it connects though to various other themes explored in 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.399 other Hinson projects, including some of his short film works, 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:36.159 that some of those did have buppets and some of 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:41.720 them didn't. But these different themes include a fractured view 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.520 of time, the theme of being trapped, a film as 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:51.119 a metatext, and the trappings of superficiality. So those are 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.479 all worth keeping in mind as we continue to discuss 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:54.120 the movie here. 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:58.400 Yeah, Rewatching Labyrinth with this knowledge of its reception history 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:03.159 is odd and interesting because you have this contrast, like 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:07.439 the as we've been talking about, the chilly reception it 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.840 got from critics and people pointing out all of these 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.800 things that are arguably flaws with it, flows in the storytelling, 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.919 flaws in the design, flows in the acting, and so forth. 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.320 And at the same time you contrast that with what 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.800 I've been saying about I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:27.199 the way that so many kids just totally accepted this 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:31.560 movie as part of the very fabric of childhood. And 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:34.440 I was trying to think what accounts for that difference, 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:39.600 And I think Labyrinth is a movie where you could 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:44.240 easily nitpick a lot of things about it if you're 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:48.040 not along for the ride. But if you're along for 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:51.400 the ride. It's just perfect and you don't question anything. 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:54.640 And so the real question is are you along for 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:58.800 this ride or not? And what determines if someone will 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:00.760 be or will not be a long for the ride. 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:03.560 Like clearly Jeene Siskel was, he did not agree to 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:06.400 be along for the ride. It's almost in this regard. 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:08.840 I was thinking the inverse of a movie we talked 0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:12.720 about a few weeks ago, Ridley Scott's Legend. Legend is 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:16.760 a movie made of amazing parts, but somehow it is 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:19.479 less than the some of those parts. Something about it 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:23.520 just doesn't quite click as a story overall. Labyrinth, on 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:25.680 the other hand, I think has I mean, of course, 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:28.679 it also has amazing parts, and you know, great character 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:31.439 designs and puppetry and all that, but it has a 0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:35.760 lot of specific stuff you could criticize if you were 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:39.040 so inclined. But if you just take the movie as 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:42.359 an indivisible whole, the way you a lot of times 0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:46.159 kids take movies as just a totally absorbing experience that 0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:49.600 you don't really think about critically. It would never even 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:51.600 occur to you that any part of it could be 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.640 less than perfect. It's just the ride you're on and 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:55.720 it's it's amazing. 0:25:56.040 --> 0:25:58.359 I was thinking about something along these lines when I 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.600 was swimming laps this morning that like, for me, a 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:05.040 movie is often like a Frankenstein's monster, you know, yeah, 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:08.320 you know, sometimes it's made from the most beautiful pieces 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.760 imaginable and that you can't even see the stitch work, 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:16.240 and and then other times it's ghastly the stitches are 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.680 are raw and apparent, you know, and there are other 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:23.639 like design problems. But at the end of the experiment, 0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:28.240 if the creature can rise up and it has something 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:32.120 like you know, cohesive life to it, then like then 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:33.800 you buy it, like that that's the thing it has. 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:37.240 It has to be able to walk out of the laboratory. Yeah, 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.119 and if it does, then yeah, the movie like works 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.400 at least on some sort of level that I can 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:44.800 get behind. And it's it's interesting because you sometimes you 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:47.840 do have a a beautiful monster that's there on the slab, 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.959 But if the spark doesn't happen, if it doesn't rise up, 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:53.040 then you know, what can you do? 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:56.280 Yeah, But Labyrinth is getting up and walking, It's it's 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:59.040 running around, it's dancing, it's taking its head off and 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:00.720 tossing it to the Montster next Door. 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:13.400 Yep, absolutely all right, let's see other folks involved here. 0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:16.920 A story credit goes to Dennis Lee born nineteen thirty nine. 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:19.520 He'd previously worked as a composer on Fragile Rock and 0:27:19.560 --> 0:27:21.840 we would continue to work in the music department and 0:27:21.960 --> 0:27:25.480 as a composer on subsequent Hintson projects. He is also 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:28.720 an author and poet for children. Some of his poems 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:32.280 were adapted into the nineteen ninety two TV movie Alligator Pie. 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:35.320 And then, of course we have a screenplay credit to 0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:38.600 Terry Jones, who have nineteen forty two through twenty twenty, 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:43.760 the legendary Monty Python writer, director, performer, and medieval historian. 0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:48.000 Jones worked on an early draft of the screenplay, and 0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:51.280 he retains the credit here, though I'm to understand only 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:54.280 some of his original ideas remain. But I've always felt 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:57.520 that you still get a very strong Pythonian vibe off 0:27:57.520 --> 0:27:58.119 of the film. 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:02.280 Yes, I couldn't tell you exactly what those elements are 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:04.280 off the top of my head, but I can feel 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:07.399 the ghost of money Python in this beast. 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.800 I feel like the specific things that feel like Terry Jones, 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:12.399 and I could be wrong on this, you know, this 0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:14.800 is often the case the most authentic thing and a 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:17.359 work is actually the most fake, and so forth. But 0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:20.320 I always get a strong Terry Jones vibe from the 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:25.680 part where where Hoggle is spraying the fairies because and 0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:27.960 then we find out it's because fairies bite. Yes, that 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:31.639 feels very Terry Jones. And then the logic puzzle of 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:36.160 the door guardians that we hear we encounter later on, 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:39.000 that also feels very Terry Jones. And I again could 0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:39.520 be wrong in. 0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:42.240 Both of those cases, No, I agree with you there. 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:46.000 So. Jones apparently worked off a novella by Dennis Lee, 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:48.800 as well as the drawings of artists Brian Frowd who 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:51.320 will come back to But the shooting script apparently had 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:53.080 a number of different fingerprints on it. You had like 0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:57.920 Jim Henson, of course, producer George Lucas, Fraggle, writer Laura Phillips, 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.600 and also writer Elaine May. Anyway, Terry Jones is best 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:04.040 known for his work with Money Python. He co directed 0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:07.040 Holy Grail in seventy five, Money Python and the Holy Grail, 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:10.000 and directed both Life of Brian and seventy nine and 0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:12.320 the Meaning of Life in eighty three, followed by various 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:15.240 works including nineteen eighty nine's Eric the Viking. He wrote 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:19.920 numerous fiction and nonfiction books, including nineteen eighty's Chaucer's Knight, 0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:24.480 The Portrait of a Medieval Mercenary. All right, of course, 0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:26.720 as we've been saying, this is a David Bowie film. 0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:30.000 David Bowie, who lived nineteen forty seven through twenty sixteen, 0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:34.000 plays Jareth the Goblin King. Again. We previously talked about 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:35.720 David Bowie in our episode on The Man Who Fell 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:39.080 to Earth, and here we return once more to what 0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:42.080 would become one of his most iconic film roles. And 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:45.400 rather than revisit everything we said before, I thought we 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:49.240 might instead just sort of position Labyrinth within his filmography 0:29:49.520 --> 0:29:52.760 and his discography. So in the case of the latter, 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:56.480 it falls between his nineteen eighty four album Tonight and 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.880 nineteen eighty seven's Never Let Me Down. 0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:02.200 Now. I love David Bowie, but I don't know either 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:04.440 of these albums. I don't think I've ever listened to them. 0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:07.320 I had never listened to them before. I'd listened to 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:10.000 them both at least a couple of times through each 0:30:11.160 --> 0:30:15.080 while researching and doing notes for this episode, because, like 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:18.160 the former, was long considered and I think maybe. It 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:20.560 is still considered one of his lesser albums and was 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:24.080 poorly received, though it was apparently re released with new 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:27.880 instrumentation and the deletion of a track titled Too Dizzy. 0:30:28.880 --> 0:30:31.000 But again, I didn't listen to the original version of 0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:33.600 the album. All I have is this, I believe, the 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:36.239 new version that's on the streaming platforms to listen to, 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:40.560 and you know I can't compare, but you know I 0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:44.800 didn't hate it. The reggae elements are interesting. The title 0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:48.240 track is a duet with Tina Turner, and he collaborated 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:50.120 with Iggy Pop on some of the tracks as well. 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:54.080 And then Never Let Me Down was an attempt apparently 0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:56.840 to sort of course correct, but was also poorly received. 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:01.520 Even though you have a track, there's one track, Shining Star, 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:04.400 which features a rap by Mickey Rourke. I would think 0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:07.080 that would be successful, but I don't know. But again, 0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:09.040 I listened to this all the way through and I 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:12.040 didn't hate anything. I really liked the track Bang Bang, 0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:16.480 which is an Iggy Pop cover. Oh and then Time 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:18.480 Will Crawl. It is also one that I thought was 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:21.680 pretty good, but Bowie himself would end up distancing himself 0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:24.080 from both of these albums later on, so you could 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:26.880 sort of see this as like, at least from his standpoint, 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:28.920 you know, this was kind of like a low point 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:32.800 in his creative output. Now on the film front, this 0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:36.680 one occurs after John Landis's nineteen eighty five thriller Into 0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:40.280 the Night and Julian Temple's Absolute Beginners the same year, 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:42.640 and he'd follow it up with nineteen eighty nine's The 0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:45.960 Last Temptation of Christ. So it's interesting that while the 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:48.080 mid eighties are not considered the high point of his 0:31:48.160 --> 0:31:51.880 musical output, in Labyrinth, at least he busts out one 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:55.560 of what would become his most iconic roles ever, and 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.200 also a soundtrack album's worth of material. I think put 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:02.320 five tracks into total that I think has stood the 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:06.280 test of time, Like these are beloved songs today, even 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:08.600 though at the time, again the movie was was not 0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:12.200 a critical or financial success. And it's I don't think 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:14.800 he ever performed a single one of these songs live, 0:32:15.280 --> 0:32:17.160 you know. I think he, like a lot of people, 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.360 just kind of like rolled with the punches and just 0:32:19.400 --> 0:32:22.800 moved on from Labyrinth, even though it would go on 0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:26.360 to generate this kind of love and this kind of 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:26.960 an audience. 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:31.200 I think Bowie's presence in this movie is very interesting 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:35.520 to analyze. On one hand, he is, you know, he's 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.920 David Bowie, so he's captivating whenever he's on screen. On 0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:42.200 the other hand, he seems a little checked out. Did 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:45.480 you feel the same way, Like it seems like he's 0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:49.719 his engagement with the material and in his scenes is 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:53.960 often it seems quite muted and like he's he's a 0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:54.960 little bit hazy. 0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:57.800 Yeah, I mean this is one of those things where 0:32:58.120 --> 0:32:59.520 and we kind of got into this a little bit 0:32:59.520 --> 0:33:01.840 with in the episode of The Man Who Fell to Earth, 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:07.640 like these tendencies might also ultimately benefit the character, because 0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:10.880 what is Jareth Jarreth is he is a tyrant. He 0:33:11.000 --> 0:33:15.000 is a like a manchild who has apparently grown perhaps 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:19.520 from infancy into this position of great power without any 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:22.640 checks and balances in place. And so yeah, maybe he 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:24.440 does kind of check out at times because he can. 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:28.040 He can do so he's a little bit aloof you know, 0:33:28.280 --> 0:33:33.760 he's he's vain, but he's also vulnerable. He's charismatic and 0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:36.400 can also be quite cruel. Like there are a number 0:33:36.400 --> 0:33:38.560 of sort of paradoxes with this guy. 0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:42.720 Yeah, he's villainous. He can be cruel, but he's also 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:46.080 a little bit dreamy at a i don't know, a 0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:48.320 slightly reduced state of consciousness. 0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:53.520 Yeah, yeah, I mean, ultimately he's of the fairy folk 0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:56.680 in his own way. Now, one thing that I was 0:33:56.680 --> 0:33:58.920 thinking about is that the character of Jareth is never 0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:01.680 fully explained here in the final cut of the film, 0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:04.880 you know, And I've read that like Hinson and Lucas 0:34:04.960 --> 0:34:06.840 kind of like went back and forth on the final edit, 0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:10.279 where Hinson would have more dialogue and Lucas would cut 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:12.320 dialogue and then they'd kind of like find the balance. 0:34:12.320 --> 0:34:14.600 So maybe an earlier cut they went into this, but 0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:17.879 you don't really know like what he is or why 0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:20.160 he's there, Like he's the king of the goblins, but 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:27.000 he's obviously or presumably not a goblin himself. And apparently 0:34:27.000 --> 0:34:29.000 at some time, at some points in pre production, they 0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:32.879 intended for Jaiff to be a more darkly satanic, more 0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:36.040 in line with what Legend does with darkness, and knowing 0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:38.719 what Legend was going to do with that character, they 0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:42.239 kind of went in a different direction. But I've read 0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:44.719 that in an earlier draft of the script it was 0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:47.800 revealed that Jareff was once a mortal who solved the labyrinth. 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:53.719 And then I also have a labyrinth Bestieri by St. Binde, 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:58.239 and she writes that Jarref himself was a changeling, so 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:01.000 he was brought into the Goblin in realm as an 0:35:01.000 --> 0:35:04.840 infant to serve as the heir to the previous Goblin ruler. 0:35:05.239 --> 0:35:07.800 I guess it's because, you know, goblins need a ruler, 0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:10.200 and none of them want to do it themselves, Like 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:12.799 can't we steal a baby to do this? Can't we 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:15.319 train a baby to do this? And the answer is yes, 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:16.960 that's how they live their lives. 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:19.880 I have a question, which is is it fun to 0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:23.320 be the Goblin King? I see the goblins having fun, 0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:27.120 They're you know, horsing around, They're getting into all kinds 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.520 of mischief, But David Bowie seems to be just kind 0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:34.400 of languidly presiding over all the mischief. Is he having 0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:35.839 fun being Goblin King? 0:35:36.760 --> 0:35:38.760 I think he gets bored, and I think he gets 0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:41.560 I think there's a lot of anxiety there. You know, 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:47.839 we see like his boredom often turns into cruelty, and yeah, 0:35:47.840 --> 0:35:52.200 he is also deeply invested in the theft of this baby. 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:55.920 And the acquisition of Sarah. I think because he feels 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:59.880 like like there's incompleteness in his life and in the 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.440 of his reign, like he needs fresh blood, he needs 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:06.680 an air, He needs someone who loves him, as opposed 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.360 to just the goblins, who certainly serve him. But I 0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:12.000 think love would be a strong word, and that's where 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:14.920 Sarah comes in. Sarah's, of course, played by Jennifer Connolly 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:19.160 born nineteen seventy Academy Award winning actress whose credits as 0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:21.920 a child actress date back to a nineteen eighty two 0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:26.040 episode of Rhaldahl's anthology series Tales of the Unexpected. It's 0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:27.960 one I don't think I've seen this one, but it's 0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:32.480 titled Stranger in Town. It stars Derek Jacoby, and I 0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:34.440 included it still from it here you can see a 0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:38.480 very young Jennifer Connolly standing there next to a Derek 0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:41.480 Jacoby in a ridiculous, I don't know, some sort of 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:45.600 a jester or magician costume. Yeah, a cross between the two, okay. 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:48.720 She also pops up in the music video for Duran 0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:51.560 Durand's Union of the Snake from nineteen eighty three. I 0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:53.560 think she's supposed to be like a cult member or 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:57.400 something cool. And she followed this up with a small 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:01.480 role in Sergio Leoni's Once Upon Time in America. That's 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:04.880 an eighty four oh, and then Dario Argento's Phenomena in 0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:08.399 nineteen eighty five opposite Donald Pleasants. Joe, I still haven't 0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:10.040 seen this one, so you'll have to summarize. 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.759 It's impossible to summarize the plot of Phenomena. It involves 0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:18.160 It involves like, I think, a super intelligent chimpanzee and 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:23.160 swarms of insects that are controlled by a psychic and 0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:26.800 I don't know, because it's a it's a Jallo film, 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:29.600 so it has like murders at a Swiss boarding school, 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:33.359 of course, and I don't know. I can't describe it all. 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:37.359 But it does involve Donald Pleasants and a chimpanzee and 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:42.319 insects and murder mysteries, and Jennifer Connelly is the main character. 0:37:42.360 --> 0:37:45.879 All right. So these are essentially the credits that led 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:49.360 into her playing Sarah in Labyrinth at the age of fourteen, 0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:52.160 at least in the early stages of the production, and 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:54.759 her subsequent credits would include the likes of nineteen ninety 0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:57.880 one's The Rocketeer ninety eight s Dark City, two thousand's 0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:00.520 Requiem for a Dream two thousand and one, A Beautiful 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:03.440 Mind two thousand and threes, Hulk, twenty fourteen's Noah, and 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:05.080 the TV series snow Piercer. 0:38:05.840 --> 0:38:07.799 I think she's great in all those later movies, by 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:10.320 the way, some of the ones I remember really standing 0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:12.960 out to me were like Dark City and all that. 0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:16.240 But you know, I remember liking her even in movies 0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:19.120 that I liked less overall, Like I remember thinking A 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:21.719 Beautiful Mind is just kind of some some Oscar bait. 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:24.560 But you know, Jennifer Connelly is always great. 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.799 Yeah, Yeah, I've really enjoyed her on snow Piercer. Now. 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:29.960 Sarah's parents are only briefly in the film, but as 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:33.160 the only other two adult humans present, they deserve mention. 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:37.600 Shelley Thompson born nineteen fifty nine places Sarah's stepmother, Canadian 0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:40.360 actor and director whose credits also include eighty five episodes 0:38:40.400 --> 0:38:41.640 of Trailer Park Boys. 0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:43.839 Really Yeah Wow. 0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:46.600 And then Sarah's father is played by Christopher Malcolm, who 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:49.919 lived nineteen forty six through twenty fourteen, a Scottish born 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.960 actor of stage and screen who actually originated the role 0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:55.399 of Brad in the stage musical The Rocky Horror Show, 0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:58.840 which will become The Rocky Horror Picture Show. And he 0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:02.040 appears in Richard O'Briens nineteen eighty one follow up to 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.760 Rocky Horror Shock Treatment. And he also had small roles 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:09.000 in nineteen eighty's Superman two and The Empire Strikes Back. 0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:13.239 And he has a role in Highlander, a role that 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:17.080 I think I always forget that this features into the 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:20.000 plot even the slightest. But there's like a vigilante character 0:39:20.080 --> 0:39:24.640 running the streets in Highlander, and Christopher Malcolm plays that vigilante. 0:39:25.040 --> 0:39:28.200 I think he's killed by the Kurgan. It's a very 0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.839 forgettable part of the film. Yeah, this one is one 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:33.720 that felt like an insert from another dimension, Like really 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:35.800 that was part of this film that I've seen multiple times. 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:39.279 But I guess so if you say Internet okay. And 0:39:39.320 --> 0:39:42.160 of course there's a long list of Muppet performers and 0:39:42.280 --> 0:39:46.200 voice actors and other creatives. They include the likes of 0:39:46.280 --> 0:39:51.960 Warwick Davis, Kenny Baker, Kevin Klash, Steven Whitmyer, Frank Oz, 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:56.560 Karen Prell, Dave Goles, Jim Hinson himself of course, and 0:39:56.600 --> 0:40:00.560 his son Brian Hinson born nineteen sixty three, who voices Hoggle, 0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:06.200 who of course is Sarah's. The word friend is thrown 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:08.320 around a lot, and I guess we'd get there eventually, 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:11.760 but mostly he just betrays her over and over again. 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:16.000 But yes, Brian Hinson provides the voice there, but. 0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:18.600 He helps her too, and yeah, it's a you know, 0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:20.480 your friendship is something you grow into. 0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:23.440 Yeah, he's I just love the parts where he's like, 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:27.359 he's like, she's my friend and I won't betray her. 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:30.200 And then jareded is like, Hoggle, I need you to 0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:32.239 poison her, and he's like, all right, I'll do it. 0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:37.360 So anyway, we'll come back to some of these individuals 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:39.880 as we proceed here, but I will point out that 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:44.280 among the voice actors, Michael Horden, who lived in nineteen 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:47.560 eleven through nineteen ninety five, provides the voice of the 0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:50.040 wise Man, the one with the bird on his hat. 0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:53.800 He's also known for his performance as the voice of Frith, 0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:56.759 the sun god, in nineteen seventy eight's Watership Down, and 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.959 his other credits include sixty three's Cleopatra sixty eights Where Eagles, 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:03.719 seventy three's Theater of Blood seventy five's Barry Lyndon in 0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:05.040 nineteen eighty two's Gandhi. 0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:09.560 Theater of Blood is Vincent Price movie. Yeah, with almost 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:13.000 the same plot as Doctor Fibes, except with a more 0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:18.280 overtly comedic Hammi theater orientation Shakespearean theater. 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:23.520 All right, we mentioned Brian Froud, earlier conceptual designer and 0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:27.799 costume designer born nineteen forty seven English fantasy illustrator who 0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:29.680 had worked with Alan Lee on the nineteen seventy eight 0:41:29.719 --> 0:41:33.600 book Fairies. His work often calls back to nineteenth century 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:38.279 and early twentieth century fantasy illustration, particularly like fairytale inspiration, 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:40.959 and I've heard from friends who have seen him speak 0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:43.240 in the past that he's something of like a true 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.040 believer in fairy folk, Like he doesn't just draw the fairies, 0:41:46.440 --> 0:41:49.680 he knows that they are real. He of course served 0:41:49.680 --> 0:41:52.480 as a conceptual as the conceptual designer on The Dark 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:56.000 Crystal previously. He also later worked on The Storyteller. His 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:58.919 other conceptual artist credits include two thousand and three's Peter 0:41:59.000 --> 0:42:02.719 Pan in twenty Sixteenans Pete's Dragon Interesting as well. He 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:06.280 met his wife Wendy on the set of the Dark Crystal. 0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:08.560 She worked in the creature workshop on that film and 0:42:08.640 --> 0:42:12.080 also on this film as well, and they had a son, 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:16.480 Toby famously born eighty four, who of course plays baby Toby, 0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:22.239 Sarah's brother in this picture. So real life. Toby has 0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:25.000 gone into work in special effects and animation on such 0:42:25.000 --> 0:42:27.880 films as twenty fourteen's The Box Trolls and the twenty 0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:30.440 nineteen series The Dark Crystal, The Age of Resistance. 0:42:30.840 --> 0:42:33.920 Oh nice, but yeah, you actually do get to see 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:36.759 a real baby crying in this movie though. I was 0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:40.680 watching close when the Goblin King Jarrett starts like throwing 0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:43.319 him really high up in the air. That is a doll. 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:44.720 That's not the real baby. 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:46.680 That's good. I mean his parents were on set. They 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:49.760 weren't going to allow that to happen. Okay. Alex Thompson 0:42:49.800 --> 0:42:52.520 was cinematographer on this only mentioned it because we brought 0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:55.880 We mentioned him briefly in Legend, same cinematographer as Legend, 0:42:56.000 --> 0:43:01.719 so that's interesting. And then music is a big part 0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:05.320 of this film. Trevor Jones did the score. Born nineteen 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:08.680 forty nine, South African composer with some very impressive credentials 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.239 going back to the late seventies. His other scores include 0:43:11.400 --> 0:43:14.600 ex Caliber from eighty one, eighty two's The Cinder, The 0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:17.800 Dark Crystal, eighty five's Runaway Train, eighty seven's Angel Heart, 0:43:17.840 --> 0:43:21.680 eighty eight Mississippi Burning, ninety two's Free Jack, as well 0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:25.000 as the Last of the Mohicans, Dark City, and two 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:28.000 thousand and one s from Hell. And he's still still active. 0:43:28.360 --> 0:43:31.080 I wonder if he's still getting residuals on Free Jack. 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:35.640 Well, one would hope. Now. I'm not current enough on 0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:37.840 all of his scores, or even most of his scores. 0:43:38.560 --> 0:43:41.280 I've never seen The Cinder, but it's on my list, 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:43.440 but I think his score for The Dark Crystal is 0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:46.840 really really good. And I love the glistening electronic splendor 0:43:46.880 --> 0:43:49.759 of his work in Labyrinth here fused, of course with 0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:54.040 the musical stylings of David Bowie. And again, yes, David 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:57.080 Bowie's music is key here as well. It is a 0:43:57.120 --> 0:44:00.880 full fledged musical featuring five original tracks from David Bowie. 0:44:00.960 --> 0:44:02.560 We'll come back to these as we go, but they 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:06.880 are Underground, Magic, Dance, Chili, Down, as the World Falls 0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:08.160 Down and within You. 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:12.080 I say possibly the opening track Underground is the most 0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:15.520 memorable for me, Like as a good song. But what's 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:18.400 the most memorable just as an experience? I think it 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:22.359 might be Chili Down, which is is that I don't know, 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:26.399 is this song terrifying, horrible, wonderful? What is going on? 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:29.319 There's a lot to process with Chili Down, I think. 0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:33.160 I think all of us who began watching Labyrinth as 0:44:33.200 --> 0:44:35.319 a child are still trying to figure out how we 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:41.080 feel about Chili Down, and of course the sights and 0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:44.400 traumas that accompany it. Like if you went into this 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:49.680 film having found the dark Crystal uncomfortable, then the Chili 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:54.440 Down sequence is basically like a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:56.840 but luckily the rest of Labyrinth doesn't have quite the 0:44:56.840 --> 0:44:57.400 same flavor. 0:44:57.680 --> 0:44:58.160 Yeah. 0:44:58.200 --> 0:45:01.239 But it is that track Underground that plays with the 0:45:01.280 --> 0:45:03.839 opening credits for the CGI Owl because it's got these 0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:06.520 lines that are, uh, these are quite memorable. It says 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:09.480 it's only for forever, it's not long at all. 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:13.880 Yeah, Yeah, which fits nicely into this treatment of time 0:45:13.920 --> 0:45:17.759 in this picture. But yeah, I love the score when 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.920 it hits us, the score that transitions into Bowie's Underground, 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:24.720 a track that's going to play again in the closing credits. Yeah, lyrically, 0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:26.719 I think it's a it's a song that really captures 0:45:26.760 --> 0:45:31.160 both Sarah's emotional state and the temptations of the Goblin King. 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.319 You know, it just feels emotionally on point as we 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:37.320 enter in at first, not necessarily not really into the 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:40.440 world of the Labyrinth just yet, but into the real world, 0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:44.560 into the mundane world that Sarah finds herself trapped in. 0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:46.640 Like this is a film that's ultimately about her being 0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:49.239 trapped in a fantasy world, but in the beginning she 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:56.959 is trapped in her mundane life. 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:03.920 So yeah. The action begins in a beautiful outdoor location. 0:46:04.080 --> 0:46:08.000 Actually the place that's almost shockingly green. It's this park 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:12.240 with a small river running through it, stone bridges, lush grass, 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:15.799 and these dark, shadowy trees. I am pretty sure this 0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:19.359 was shot at a place called west Wycombe Park in 0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:22.839 the UK. I looked it up to do some comparison. 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:26.120 But in the foreground of this shot we get the 0:46:26.280 --> 0:46:29.120 animated owl from the credits, which has become a live 0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:32.799 action owl, which settles on a granite obelisk. And then 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:36.080 in the background, our heroine, Sarah played by Jennifer Connelly, 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:38.600 comes running into the scene over one of these low 0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:43.240 stone bridges, and when we first meet her, she's dressed 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:46.640 in a costume, a sort of a Renaissance era gown 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:49.239 with a garland in her hair. And I think this 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:51.040 is meant to be a kind of fake out, like 0:46:51.080 --> 0:46:53.800 we might assume that the movie takes place in another 0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:57.920 time period, but no, it turns out she is I think, 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:01.000 rob Let me know if you disagree. I think she's 0:47:01.040 --> 0:47:05.000 supposed to be rehearsing for a play, and she's apparently 0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:08.920 in costume for that, but either way, she's practicing some 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:11.800 kind of lines. She's trying to memorize something from a book, 0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:15.279 and as she runs and dances through the park, she 0:47:15.440 --> 0:47:17.680 says her lines, and the lines go like this. They 0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:21.520 are important because they recur throughout the film. She says, 0:47:21.760 --> 0:47:26.120 give me the child through dangers untold and hardship's unnumbered. 0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:28.920 I have fought my way here to the castle beyond 0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:31.440 the Goblin City to take back the child that you 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:34.560 have stolen, for my will is as strong as yours, 0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:38.600 and my kingdom is as great. And then she starts 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:41.560 to stumble. She can't remember the next line, and she 0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:46.320 struggles for a bit and then eventually gets the book 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:49.200 out of her pocket and looks at it and remembers 0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:52.000 the next line is you have no power over me. 0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:56.320 After she gets the line, thunder cracks. A rainstorm is beginning, 0:47:56.760 --> 0:48:00.319 and a nearby clock tower strikes at seven o'clock and 0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:04.440 Sarah realizes, oh, she is late for something. So we 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:06.960 get to see her run back through the park, through 0:48:07.000 --> 0:48:11.760 a neighborhood, through sort of downtown area of a small 0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:14.560 town in the rain to get back home, and her 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:17.000 adorable shaggy dog, Merlin is with her. 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:17.480 By the way. 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:20.040 He's one of these mop like dog breeds, sort of 0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:22.480 more fur than body. I don't know what breed that is, 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:26.920 but I love Merlin. Question is Merlin the same dog 0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:30.440 as Ambrosious, the dog of Sir Didimus later in the story, 0:48:30.520 --> 0:48:31.800 or is that a different dog? 0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:33.960 Oh? You know, I'm not sure if we're I mean, 0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:39.400 in a sense, definitely, but in terms of dog actors maybe. 0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:43.440 Okay. So I know it's not part of the main 0:48:43.520 --> 0:48:46.040 fantasy setting, which is the real draw of the film, 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:49.480 But for some reason, I also really love the real 0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:52.200 world locations at the beginning of the movie, the park, 0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:56.279 the town, and the storefronts, the rainy neighborhood. I think 0:48:56.320 --> 0:48:59.840 they look wonderful and they're this interesting mix of dreary 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:00.640 but lovely. 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:04.400 Yeah, and it really works because the more we see 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:07.120 of Sarah's real life, we realize that, yeah, it's like 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:12.960 she's she's not to discount her displeasure or her emotions, 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:15.640 you know, because of course these are gonna be gonna 0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:18.000 be very subjective and all. But like, you know, she 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:20.319 is what you know. She is in what to all 0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:22.920 appearances would look like a very comfortable house and a 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:26.840 very comfortable life, but that is not how she feels. 0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:31.080 She feels very set upon. She feels that she is 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:33.320 trapped here and desperately wants escape. 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:37.080 Yes, so, and when we see that conflict immediately when 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:40.200 Sarah gets home, she's confronted on the porch by her stepmother. 0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:43.680 Sarah is late. She was supposed to be home to 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:47.160 babysit her little brother Toby so her father and stepmother 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:51.040 could go out for the evening. And there there are 0:49:51.080 --> 0:49:54.960 sort of multiple levels of conflict. Sarah is very frustrated 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:59.080 and put upon. She resents being asked to babysit when 0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:01.960 she should be out living her own life. But then 0:50:02.000 --> 0:50:05.239 her stepmother says, basically, well, if you had plans, you 0:50:05.239 --> 0:50:07.080 could have told me, I'd like for you to go 0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.120 out and have dates in a social life, And it's 0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:14.080 almost like the fact that her stepmother is not being 0:50:14.160 --> 0:50:18.960 more unreasonable further enrages Sarah, and she runs upstairs yelling, 0:50:19.120 --> 0:50:22.640 pouting that apparently she can't do anything right. And I 0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:28.880 like this relatively complex depiction of teen angst because it 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:31.520 feels real to me, like the conflict is not one 0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:35.560 dimensional or about just a single subject. Instead, it seems 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:39.120 that Sarah is living in a stew of many conflicting 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.680 emotions and desires, all of which are thwarted at the 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:45.359 same time, Like she wants to be an adult and 0:50:45.440 --> 0:50:49.200 have independence and self determination, but feels like something is 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:52.680 preventing her. But also there are signs that she wants 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.839 to go the other way and regress into the self 0:50:55.920 --> 0:50:58.840 centered mind space of childhood and just be free of 0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:02.399 all responsibilities and all cares about others. And we see 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:04.239 this in the way that she hides in a room 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:07.600 and finds solace in her collection of stuffed animals, and 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:11.640 later in the way she unfairly projects resentment onto her 0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:15.759 baby brother. And I think that feeling of complex and 0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:20.600 even mutually exclusive thwarted desires is very relatable to anybody 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:24.319 who remembers being a teenager themselves, Like, I remember what 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:25.839 that felt like in a way where it was just 0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:30.000 like everything was confusing and frustrating and nothing felt right 0:51:30.080 --> 0:51:33.719 and there wasn't actually one single cause of it. It's 0:51:33.840 --> 0:51:36.880 just that that's what it's like to be fifteen or sixteen. 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:39.480 The conflict here isn't just about babysitting. 0:51:39.840 --> 0:51:41.799 Yeah, and it's not that your stepmom is telling you 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:45.880 to go water a stump, yeah yeah, yeah. And so 0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:48.239 of course she goes to her room, and boy, what 0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:51.200 a room it is. I think we've talked about kids 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:54.320 rooms on the show before, but this is always something 0:51:54.320 --> 0:51:56.520 that I paying a lot of attention to when I 0:51:56.520 --> 0:51:59.680 watch a film. How have you decorated this child's room? 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:03.120 Did you just print out some stuff from Getty Images 0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:05.279 and you're pretending it's a poster or did you use 0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:08.320 real posters? You know? Is it all fake franchise stuff? 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:11.640 Does it feel like a child actually lived in this 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:14.319 room or not? And I think they do just a 0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:19.120 fabulous job with Sarah's room here, with her reality of stuff, 0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:21.400 which is going to be vitally important to the plot, 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:24.279 of course, but it also needs to feel real. 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:27.440 Yeah, what are her music posters? She have like stinging 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:28.400 on the wall or something. 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:29.840 Yeah. Yeah. 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:32.520 But also we see in the room. I think it's 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:34.360 in her room that there's a copy of Where the 0:52:34.360 --> 0:52:38.400 Wild Things Are. That really caught my eye because currently 0:52:38.400 --> 0:52:40.759 my daughter is obsessed with Where the Wild Things Are. 0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:43.279 She calls it Max Boat. You know, Max gets in 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:44.920 a boat, goes across the ocean. 0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:47.200 Oh that's a great one. Yeah, yeah, we read that 0:52:47.239 --> 0:52:47.960 one a lot too. 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:51.719 She likes to hear Where the Wild Things Are like 0:52:51.840 --> 0:52:55.920 while she's eating, she's having dinner, and she wants us 0:52:55.960 --> 0:52:58.439 to read it to her while she's having dinner, which 0:52:58.440 --> 0:52:59.920 we indulge in sometimes. 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:01.000 Her favorite wild Thing. 0:53:01.320 --> 0:53:04.279 Well, honestly, I think it's Max. She likes Max. He's 0:53:04.320 --> 0:53:06.080 the king of the wild Things. He's the one who 0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:08.560 says it's time to let the wild rump us begin? 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:10.920 So all right, solid sod. 0:53:11.320 --> 0:53:13.040 I don't know. Maybe as we continue to read it 0:53:13.080 --> 0:53:15.719 over time, she'll she'll find more to love down the 0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:21.040 character sheet. But anyway, Sarah is left to take care 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.560 of Toby while her parents go out, and so she 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:29.440 discovers at some point that one of her old stuffed animals. 0:53:29.480 --> 0:53:31.440 I think it's named Lancelot. It's like a teddy bear 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:35.000 named Lancelot has been taken from her room and given 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:38.560 to the baby, and this makes her even more angry. 0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:41.759 And then the baby's crying and she doesn't know how 0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:44.600 to make him stop, which again, you know, is a 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:48.120 relatable feeling. It does create this feeling of helplessness. And 0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:51.040 while in the middle of all these frustrations about to 0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:55.480 boil over, Sarah suddenly gets an idea, a terrible idea, 0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:58.480 an idea that seems to be related to the book 0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:01.719 or the play that she's been met. She gets the 0:54:01.800 --> 0:54:05.480 idea to I think sort of say a magic spell 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:09.919 from whatever the story is that makes goblins come and 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:13.640 take a child away. And this actually leads to one 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:17.480 of my favorite little stylistic choices, one of my favorite 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:21.600 editing moments in the movie. So when she's trying to 0:54:21.640 --> 0:54:24.440 remember the words to say to summon the goblin magic 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:29.120 and remove Toby from her life, suddenly, with no warning 0:54:29.200 --> 0:54:32.680 at all, we just cut to a bunch of goblin 0:54:32.760 --> 0:54:36.120 faces waiting with baited breath for her to say the words. 0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:39.080 They're like yelling at each other, like listen she's gonna 0:54:39.080 --> 0:54:43.120 say the words. Such an odd and surprising choice, the 0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:46.759 way we just smash cut to goblins with no previous 0:54:46.760 --> 0:54:50.960 introduction or even indication that they exist. Everything up to 0:54:51.000 --> 0:54:55.040 this point has been fully realistic, no fantasy elements at all, 0:54:55.560 --> 0:54:58.480 and so the first time we see anything magical is 0:54:58.520 --> 0:55:03.000 an absolutely unexpl did smash cut. It almost reminds me 0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:06.080 of the moment in The Exorcist when Reagan is at 0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.480 the doctor's office and she's staring up at the ceiling 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:11.600 and we smashed cut to the Pazuzu face peering out 0:55:11.640 --> 0:55:15.719 of the darkness. This isn't as evil and menacing as that, 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:19.200 but it's semi evil and a little bit scary. And 0:55:20.000 --> 0:55:22.640 I love the way that the magic just bursts in 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:24.359 like that, with no warning at all. 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:26.919 Yeah, and we don't even really get a clear sense 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:29.200 of where the goblins are. Are they in the closet 0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:30.680 and are in the walls? Are they just in the 0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:34.920 nether void? You know that's easily accessible, but equally distant, 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:38.120 distant from you know, our real life at any time. 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:41.319 But yeah, all this build up is wonderful. I love too, 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:45.760 how she's self narrating her plight here, including talking about 0:55:45.800 --> 0:55:49.120 one day when Baby was especially cruel to her. Yes, 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:54.000 which of course is just such a deliciously over the 0:55:54.000 --> 0:55:58.560 top exaggeration of her current circumstance. Yes, the baby Toby 0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:02.200 was cruel to you today, Baby Toby definitely stole your 0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:02.920 stuffed animal. 0:56:04.719 --> 0:56:08.880 So anyway, she does eventually remember the words to say, 0:56:08.960 --> 0:56:13.280 and then the magic descends. Toby disappears, he is gone, 0:56:13.760 --> 0:56:17.160 and instead she is now faced with David Bowie playing 0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:21.359 the Goblin King Jarreth. He appears in Toby's room, and 0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:24.960 she quite quickly regrets that she sent Toby away. You know, 0:56:25.040 --> 0:56:28.239 she wants him back, but Jared says, at first, I 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:30.160 think he says she can't have him back, and then 0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:32.319 finally he says, Okay, she can only have him back 0:56:32.640 --> 0:56:35.160 if she makes it to his castle at the center 0:56:35.200 --> 0:56:38.800 of the Great Labyrinth before midnight, and if not, Toby 0:56:38.840 --> 0:56:41.719 will become absorbed into the Goblin Horde. He will just 0:56:41.760 --> 0:56:42.719 become goblin. 0:56:43.520 --> 0:56:46.759 Yes, yeah, I mean, there's just so many great details 0:56:46.840 --> 0:56:49.160 in this moment and leading up to it. I mean, 0:56:49.200 --> 0:56:52.719 I love the goblins when they start invading the room. Yes, 0:56:52.840 --> 0:56:58.560 I love Jireth laying out the challenge you have thirteen 0:56:58.600 --> 0:57:01.680 hours in which to solve the labyrinth and making a 0:57:01.800 --> 0:57:04.960 time go weird on her. And then the first of 0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:06.759 what will be kind of a recurring element in the 0:57:06.760 --> 0:57:10.759 film of characters really trying to shoot down her optimism, 0:57:11.600 --> 0:57:13.759 you know, where she says, Okay, I can do this, 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:16.280 and he's like, it's further than you think, you know, 0:57:16.360 --> 0:57:18.880 And we'll get something similar from Hoggle later on, where 0:57:18.880 --> 0:57:20.800 he's like, yeah, it just gets tougher from here on out, 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:23.680 you know, which These lines seem to like echo a 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:27.080 sort of adult sensibility that has been handed down to 0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:29.800 Sarah and is reflected in the fantasy world here. 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:34.120 Yeah. Yeah, So suddenly we're in a different place. We 0:57:34.200 --> 0:57:36.320 have been taken to the Goblin Kingdom. We're not in 0:57:36.360 --> 0:57:40.160 Sarah's house anymore. How would you describe the esthetics of 0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:42.120 the Goblin Kingdom? What is this world like? 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:46.200 Oh, it's beautiful for starters, but it's also a little 0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:50.480 bit desolate and everything. So many surfaces in the Goblin realm, 0:57:50.720 --> 0:57:53.280 and it varies depending on what section of the labyrinthin 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:56.120 you're in. So many surfaces look like they have very 0:57:56.160 --> 0:57:58.680 recently been crawled over by some sort of a fairy 0:57:58.760 --> 0:58:01.480 slug that leaves just a little bit of a like 0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:03.880 a glistening sparkle to everything. 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:05.920 A glittering mucus trail overall. 0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:10.280 Yeah, but it does, I think, read rather accurately, like 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:14.000 a fine kingdom that has been ruled too long by goblins. Like, yes, 0:58:14.560 --> 0:58:17.680 upkeep is happening, but it's maybe not as loving as 0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:18.160 it could be. 0:58:18.600 --> 0:58:23.800 Yes. Now. Pretty quickly, while finding her way to the 0:58:24.200 --> 0:58:26.800 to the entrance of the labyrinth so she can get 0:58:26.840 --> 0:58:31.240 Toby back, Sarah runs into someone. She meets, a character 0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:33.200 named Hoggle, who's going to be one of the main 0:58:33.280 --> 0:58:35.800 characters in the movie. When we first meet Hoggle, he 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:38.320 is urinating into a reflecting pool. 0:58:38.760 --> 0:58:39.040 Yeah. 0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:44.760 Yeah, but so that's I guess an inauspicious beginning. But 0:58:44.840 --> 0:58:47.240 it's sort of a difficult meeting. At first. Hoggle is 0:58:47.280 --> 0:58:50.280 not inclined to be very helpful to her. Instead, he 0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:54.080 is busy poisoning fairies I think, like dusting them with 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:56.200 some like fairy insecticide. 0:58:56.720 --> 0:58:59.800 Yep, yep. He is exterminating fairies. He is not helpful. 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:04.520 He is grumpy. Hogle is interesting because Hogel is not 0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:12.240 maybe not objectively cute, but you do grow to love him. 0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:15.440 He is a character that will betray Sarah over and 0:59:15.480 --> 0:59:21.240 over again and really struggles to muster any true sustaining courage. 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:24.200 But you know eventually he's going to get there. But 0:59:24.320 --> 0:59:27.040 you do have to be patient with him on that journey. 0:59:27.240 --> 0:59:30.480 That's right. And he does sort of disappear and reappear 0:59:30.520 --> 0:59:32.000 repeatedly throughout the story. 0:59:32.320 --> 0:59:34.360 Yeah. Yeah, he's difficult to count on for a while. 0:59:34.640 --> 0:59:40.880 Yeah. So, when Sarah first goes into the quick question 0:59:41.160 --> 0:59:44.280 of terminology, should we continue to call it the labyrinth 0:59:44.360 --> 0:59:47.880 or should we call it a maze? I think I 0:59:47.960 --> 0:59:52.000 recall from our episodes on the Minotaur that technically a 0:59:52.080 --> 0:59:55.520 labyrinth is one in which there is only one path 0:59:55.560 --> 0:59:58.480 and it does lead ineluctably to the ending. 0:59:58.560 --> 1:00:03.160 Is that right you some definitions? Absolutely? So, Yeah, in 1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:05.800 some respects, you could think of the labyrinth here as 1:00:05.840 --> 1:00:09.080 more of a maze. But I don't know. I mean, 1:00:09.400 --> 1:00:12.400 if the ruler of this room calls it a labyrinth, 1:00:12.480 --> 1:00:16.120 I guess we have to respect his goblin word choices. 1:00:16.400 --> 1:00:19.240 Well, I guess that's true. In any case, it does 1:00:19.280 --> 1:00:21.560 not seem that this is a place where you just 1:00:21.800 --> 1:00:24.040 continue walking and you will eventually get to the end. 1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:26.160 You have to make choices about where to turn and 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:31.240 where to go. But when Sarah first gets into the labyrinth, 1:00:31.280 --> 1:00:35.320 it's interesting that the first real challenge she faces is 1:00:35.320 --> 1:00:37.400 that she can't find anywhere to turn. It just seems 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:40.680 like one endless corridor. And so she has a wonderful 1:00:40.680 --> 1:00:44.200 little scene where she discusses this with a worm who 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:46.240 tells her he's like, ah, yeah, I can't tell you. 1:00:46.360 --> 1:00:48.920 I can't help you. I'm just a worm. But then 1:00:49.160 --> 1:00:52.840 he does provide some helpful advice because she discovers that 1:00:53.440 --> 1:00:56.800 there are gaps in the walls that she can move 1:00:56.840 --> 1:00:59.640 through to make turns and find new ways to navigate 1:00:59.680 --> 1:01:02.880 through them, but they're hidden by optical illusions. And I 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:05.960 love the effects used here because from what I can tell, 1:01:06.400 --> 1:01:10.240 there's no real trickery going on except that they just like, 1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:13.200 for example, we'll have a gap in the walls of 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:17.120 the maze that from the perspective we're looking at it 1:01:17.160 --> 1:01:20.360 totally blends in with the wall behind it, so you 1:01:20.400 --> 1:01:22.640 can't even tell their two separate walls. 1:01:23.160 --> 1:01:26.160 Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's just a complete practical illusion 1:01:26.200 --> 1:01:27.160 that they depend on here. 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:38.160 Yeah, Now we don't have time to talk through the 1:01:38.320 --> 1:01:41.960 entire plot seen by scene, but maybe we should just 1:01:42.000 --> 1:01:45.040 pick out some of our favorite moments. As Sarah is 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:50.600 navigating the labyrinth and its challenges and the people she 1:01:50.680 --> 1:01:53.560 meets along the way. One thing I know you wanted 1:01:53.600 --> 1:01:56.000 to talk about was the riddle of the doors who 1:01:56.160 --> 1:01:57.880 with the dogs guarding them? 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:00.400 Yeah? Yeah, these guys are a lot of fun. I 1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:03.480 covered these on the Monster fact a while back there. 1:02:03.800 --> 1:02:06.800 They're delightfully weird enough on their own, of course, two 1:02:07.000 --> 1:02:11.560 headed doglike humanoid creatures that are fixed behind shields, kind 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:14.400 of in the manner of double headed European playing cards. 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:17.720 It's already a wild design. But then the scenario gets 1:02:17.720 --> 1:02:21.120 even wilder because we find out, of course, that one 1:02:21.160 --> 1:02:22.920 door leads to the castle at the center of the 1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:26.320 labyrinth and the other one leads to Bubbabubum certain death. 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:29.480 The lower heads have no idea what's going on, which 1:02:29.520 --> 1:02:32.480 door is which the upper heads do, but Sarah is 1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:35.440 only permitted to ask one of them. Furthermore, one of 1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:38.240 the two guardians always tells the truth, while the other 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:41.680 one always lies. So Sarah faces a conundrum here. How 1:02:41.680 --> 1:02:44.320 can she find out which door is which? How can 1:02:44.360 --> 1:02:47.800 she risk asking the wrong guardian and being lied to? 1:02:48.680 --> 1:02:52.880 And this is really fascinating because the scenario here, of course, 1:02:52.920 --> 1:02:56.160 instantly invokes what is known as the liar's paradox. If 1:02:56.200 --> 1:02:58.640 a liar tells you they are lying, then they are 1:02:58.640 --> 1:03:02.280 telling the truth. Consider the statement, this sentence is a lie. 1:03:02.680 --> 1:03:05.439 If that statement is true, then it's false. If it's false, 1:03:05.480 --> 1:03:06.240 then it's true. 1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:09.080 Right, Hence that it's a paradox, it's self contradictory. 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:13.640 Yeah. Now the scenario that Sarah is facing here, I 1:03:13.680 --> 1:03:15.760 have to admit that I really have to do some 1:03:15.800 --> 1:03:18.320 mental gymnastics to make sense of the riddle here. I 1:03:18.320 --> 1:03:20.800 think when I was younger, at one point I did 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:23.680 like settle down and think about it long and hard 1:03:23.760 --> 1:03:26.000 enough to where it clicked. But for the most part 1:03:26.000 --> 1:03:28.240 here I just really have to trust that the film 1:03:28.320 --> 1:03:29.960 is not lying to me when it tells me that 1:03:30.000 --> 1:03:32.920 this is the correct answer. But I did research it 1:03:32.960 --> 1:03:35.840 a little bit. As John Touri points out in the 1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:39.720 paper objective falsity is essential to lying an argument from 1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.880 convergent evidence published in Philosophy Studies twenty twenty one, Sarah 1:03:43.920 --> 1:03:47.920 here is engaging in what is called answer laundering. The 1:03:48.000 --> 1:03:51.800 truth and the lie dependably cancel each other out in 1:03:51.880 --> 1:03:55.240 this scenario, provided to Rey stresses that lies cannot be 1:03:55.360 --> 1:03:59.280 true because the answer laundering she engages here is of course, 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:02.680 she asks one of the guards what the other guard 1:04:02.720 --> 1:04:07.320 would say in reaction to her question, and she uses 1:04:07.400 --> 1:04:09.960 that answer to figure out which way is which. 1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:13.600 But that makes sense because you know either way that 1:04:13.680 --> 1:04:15.640 will point you to the wrong door. If you ask 1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:19.160 the truth telling guard what the other guard would say, 1:04:19.480 --> 1:04:21.880 they will truthfully tell you that the other guard will 1:04:21.960 --> 1:04:24.040 lead you to the wrong door. And if you ask 1:04:24.120 --> 1:04:26.680 the lying guard what the truth telling guard would say, 1:04:26.720 --> 1:04:30.480 they will lie and tell you the wrong door. So 1:04:30.760 --> 1:04:33.360 either way that indicates which door is the wrong one. 1:04:33.480 --> 1:04:35.640 So by elimination you know which is the right one. 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:38.720 It's a piece of gay. So Terry points out that 1:04:38.800 --> 1:04:41.640 the riddle here of the four guards is a variant of, 1:04:42.120 --> 1:04:43.880 or seems to be a variant of the Knights and 1:04:43.960 --> 1:04:48.560 Knaves logic puzzle from Raymond Smullian's nineteen seventy eight publication 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:52.080 What is the Name of this Book? Yeah, This scenario 1:04:52.160 --> 1:04:54.480 closely resembles what we see in Labyrinth. It involves a 1:04:54.560 --> 1:04:58.440 knight and a knave otherwise indistinguishable, who guard a fork 1:04:58.440 --> 1:05:00.720 in the road? Which what are you going to take. 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:03.720 Dare you ask these two men, given that one is 1:05:03.760 --> 1:05:06.680 secretly a noble knight and one is secretly a vile nave. 1:05:07.240 --> 1:05:11.680 The solution, again is via answer laundering. You ask which 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:14.480 path the other individual would say is the correct one, 1:05:14.680 --> 1:05:16.360 and then you can use that to determine which is 1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:19.880 the correct way. Sarah guesses correctly, but of course Sarah 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:22.880 gets cocky and she gets the trap door for her efforts. 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:26.280 It almost indicates that she got it wrong, but I 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:27.640 think she did get it right. 1:05:28.200 --> 1:05:28.840 I believe so. 1:05:29.160 --> 1:05:33.280 Right, yeah, yeah, So she goes through the door and 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:37.240 then immediately falls down a trapdoor into and there's like 1:05:37.280 --> 1:05:40.120 a so the pit she falls into. It's kind of 1:05:40.120 --> 1:05:42.840 funny that there are all these hands poking out the walls, 1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.960 you know, like they like stop her from falling, and 1:05:46.000 --> 1:05:48.600 they say they're helping hands, and they form faces that 1:05:48.720 --> 1:05:51.600 talk out of the gloved hands. So it's kind of 1:05:51.640 --> 1:05:54.040 a weird, creepy scene. It reminds me of something that 1:05:54.160 --> 1:05:56.600 actually that would be in return to Oz and then 1:05:56.720 --> 1:05:57.440 feel right. 1:05:57.600 --> 1:06:01.480 Yeah, absolutely, yeah, great sequence, a very inventive use of 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:04.880 hand puppetry. Yeah, there's nothing else like it. 1:06:05.440 --> 1:06:06.919 But they ask her if she wants to go back 1:06:07.000 --> 1:06:08.560 up or to go back or to go all the 1:06:08.600 --> 1:06:11.120 way down, and for some reason she chooses down, so 1:06:11.240 --> 1:06:15.200 that ends up dropping her into an oubliette where she 1:06:15.440 --> 1:06:19.160 eventually Oh here she meets back up with Hoggle again. 1:06:19.360 --> 1:06:23.440 Yeah. Rescued by Hoggle, they make a deal over some jewelry, right. 1:06:24.320 --> 1:06:27.960 I think there are some additional negotiations with Jareth down here. 1:06:28.920 --> 1:06:30.600 I think this is the sequence where they have to 1:06:30.680 --> 1:06:33.560 run from this like nightmare device that's chasing them down 1:06:33.640 --> 1:06:36.040 a tunnel, threatening to grind them into the wall. But 1:06:36.080 --> 1:06:38.960 they eventually they bust through and find a ladder up 1:06:39.000 --> 1:06:42.560 to the surface, after which they talk to like a 1:06:43.040 --> 1:06:45.480 snoozy old wise man who I think is sort of 1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:47.800 a dog but also is a human and then has 1:06:47.800 --> 1:06:49.000 a bird on his head. 1:06:49.120 --> 1:06:53.000 Yep, yep, and they gets some limited amounts of wisdom 1:06:53.000 --> 1:06:53.680 from this character. 1:06:54.680 --> 1:06:57.400 Somewhere around here also is where we meet another one 1:06:57.600 --> 1:07:00.880 of the lovable friend to care aracters who become a 1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:05.960 part of Sarah's gang. This is Ludo. Ludo is initially 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:08.760 caught in a trap and hanging upside down and being 1:07:08.800 --> 1:07:11.600 badgered by a bunch of goblins. Ludo is like a 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:16.360 large sort of sasquatch type creature with sort of curving 1:07:16.440 --> 1:07:20.040 horns on his head, who appears very monstrous but in 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:21.960 fact is actually quite sweet natured. 1:07:22.400 --> 1:07:25.280 Yeah, or if you're Gene Siskel, this is a ripoff 1:07:25.280 --> 1:07:27.200 of Chewbacca. What a ripoff? 1:07:28.800 --> 1:07:29.800 Because he has fur? 1:07:30.080 --> 1:07:30.480 Is that it? 1:07:31.640 --> 1:07:35.440 I guess he's big and has fur, therefore is Chewbacca. 1:07:35.920 --> 1:07:38.240 But yeah, Ludo's great, Ludo's a gentle giant. 1:07:38.280 --> 1:07:42.160 You love him, Yes, lovable. Sarah rescues Ludo from being 1:07:42.520 --> 1:07:44.440 harassed by the goblins. 1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:47.120 With the nibbler sticks. Great sequence. And oh and then 1:07:47.120 --> 1:07:49.960 this is where they're doing the hobby horse technique here 1:07:50.000 --> 1:07:51.680 for the little guys running around. It's great. 1:07:51.840 --> 1:07:53.680 Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. So they've got like these 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:56.479 little monsters attached to the ends of sticks that they're 1:07:56.680 --> 1:08:00.760 using to bite Ludo with. But then she frees She 1:08:01.000 --> 1:08:03.240 like gets the goblins all fighting each other until they 1:08:03.280 --> 1:08:07.080 run away, and then she frees him, and after that 1:08:07.160 --> 1:08:12.040 Ludo is friend. Now in this sequence, Hoggle runs away, 1:08:12.080 --> 1:08:14.360 but he'll show back up again later. I think somewhere 1:08:14.360 --> 1:08:17.280 around in here is where Sarah ends up running into 1:08:17.360 --> 1:08:18.479 the fire Gang. 1:08:19.280 --> 1:08:24.000 Yes, the fire Gang or the Fieries. Oh, These are 1:08:24.040 --> 1:08:27.280 creatures that have always been pure nightmare fuel to me. 1:08:27.960 --> 1:08:31.880 They're a band of musical bird like goblinoids with like 1:08:31.960 --> 1:08:37.400 bright you know, orange and fire colored feathers, fur somewhere 1:08:37.439 --> 1:08:42.080 in between. And they have disturbing natural abilities in the 1:08:42.080 --> 1:08:46.680 realms of pyrokinesis as well as dismemberment. They can rip 1:08:46.760 --> 1:08:50.880 their bodies apart and reattach them at will willy nilly 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:54.240 in various positions. They can even connect their limbs together 1:08:54.360 --> 1:08:59.280 into new monstrous shapes. It's a sequence full of body, heart, 1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:05.400 dance music, Menace Mayham. It is a lot to process, 1:09:06.080 --> 1:09:08.720 but it is a musical number. The song here is 1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:12.480 David Bowie's Chilli Down. If you listen to the soundtrack 1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:14.920 Slash Score album, you get to hear Bowie singing on 1:09:14.960 --> 1:09:17.520 it a little bit of belief. But in the film 1:09:17.680 --> 1:09:22.160 it is performed by Kevin Klash born nineteen sixty as 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:25.880 the voice of Elmo, the original voice of Elmo. He's 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:28.880 the voice of the main fiery. Then you have Danny 1:09:28.960 --> 1:09:32.040 John Jules born nineteen sixty a British actor, dancer and 1:09:32.080 --> 1:09:34.479 singer who is also a member of the Blood Pack. 1:09:34.560 --> 1:09:38.719 In Blade two, he voices Fiery four, the really dangerous 1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:42.400 looking one. Then you have Charles Oggins, a British actor, 1:09:42.520 --> 1:09:46.000 dancer and choreographer who also choreographed this scene as well 1:09:46.040 --> 1:09:50.320 as the excellent magic dance scene from earlier. And then 1:09:50.360 --> 1:09:53.599 also you have actor Richard Bodkin doing a voice as well. 1:09:53.960 --> 1:10:01.000 So just some horrifying, freaky goblinoid creatures here performing a 1:10:01.160 --> 1:10:04.560 very wild song. And this whole sequence of course escalates 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:09.320 into them deciding they need to dismember Jennifer Connelly. Sarah, 1:10:09.400 --> 1:10:11.680 they need to rip her head off, because you're not 1:10:11.720 --> 1:10:14.320 supposed to throw other people's heads, even though they throw 1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:16.479 each other's heads around earlier, Like they don't even follow 1:10:16.520 --> 1:10:19.080 their own rules. They're just pure creatures of chaos. 1:10:19.360 --> 1:10:21.160 Yeah, what are the lines where they're like trying to 1:10:21.160 --> 1:10:23.200 pull her head off? They're like, Eh, it's not coming off. 1:10:23.240 --> 1:10:23.840 What's going on? 1:10:24.120 --> 1:10:24.320 Yeah? 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:25.040 Pull harder. 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:27.519 Yeah. And that's one of the things that I think 1:10:27.560 --> 1:10:29.840 always like really struck me about this scene. It's like 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:33.840 it's two different realities clashing. Their reality is one of 1:10:34.200 --> 1:10:39.639 just fun dismemberment. It's easily reversible and you can play 1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:42.559 with it. It's a good time for everybody, but Sarah 1:10:42.600 --> 1:10:45.080 is from a world where dismemberment is permanent. It is 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:49.800 permanent and fatal, and they just don't understand that. Why 1:10:49.800 --> 1:10:51.360 don't you want to take your head off? What is 1:10:51.400 --> 1:10:52.599 the matter with you? Now? 1:10:52.640 --> 1:10:54.960 You mentioned that there was an earlier part of the 1:10:55.000 --> 1:10:58.280 movie that featured a musical number called the Magic Dance. 1:10:58.280 --> 1:11:00.519 I didn't remember exactly where this came. This is the 1:11:00.520 --> 1:11:04.479 one where we get to see inside the Goblin Castle 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:08.680 where David Bowie's hanging out. Toby is there with all 1:11:08.720 --> 1:11:11.320 the goblins. He's sort of crying. It looks like Toby's 1:11:11.360 --> 1:11:13.919 not having a great time, but the goblins are all partying, 1:11:14.680 --> 1:11:16.599 and I guess this song is sort of about how 1:11:16.640 --> 1:11:18.240 Toby's going to become one of them. 1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:22.920 Yeah. Yeah, it's a great sequence, a great song. Bowie 1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:24.840 seems to be having a great time as Jareth here 1:11:24.960 --> 1:11:28.000 with throwing the baby around and just so many Goblin 1:11:28.040 --> 1:11:31.320 shenanigans as well. This is a goblin packed musical number. 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:34.280 You got a goblin doing the Barney Gumbel like laying 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:36.679 down with his mouth under the tap of the beer keg. 1:11:36.960 --> 1:11:39.200 Yeah. When I was watching it here, I said to 1:11:39.240 --> 1:11:40.600 my son, he was watching with me. I was like, 1:11:40.600 --> 1:11:44.200 why doesn't this goblin just get a cup? Like they're 1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:46.360 not charging by the cup here, This is just this 1:11:46.400 --> 1:11:48.680 seems to be free for any goblins. But now he's like, 1:11:48.800 --> 1:11:51.320 it's just so much easier if I just lay down 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:54.840 underneath it on the floor and just catch straight droplets 1:11:54.880 --> 1:11:55.519 of the stuff. 1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:58.799 Yeah, the cup requires too much arm exercise. It's difficult. 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:03.280 It's goblin, I guess. Yeah, so at any rate, Yeah, 1:12:03.360 --> 1:12:04.960 the fire Gang is something else. 1:12:05.320 --> 1:12:08.880 Yes, But Sarah does eventually escape the fire Gang with 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:11.679 the help of Hoggle. I think Hoggle like throws down 1:12:11.720 --> 1:12:14.160 a ladder to her from the top of a top 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:16.599 of a wall to help them get away, or maybe 1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:17.880 a rope. Maybe that's it. 1:12:18.200 --> 1:12:20.800 Yeah, Yeah, And so she's able to escape and doesn't 1:12:20.840 --> 1:12:21.879 get ripped to pieces. 1:12:22.600 --> 1:12:26.320 But Hoggle and Sarah end up in the Bog of 1:12:26.600 --> 1:12:30.799 Eternal Stench. This is a place Hoggle has been threatened 1:12:30.800 --> 1:12:33.200 with before. I think that, you know, it's like, if 1:12:33.200 --> 1:12:36.000 he doesn't do what Jarreed, the Goblin King says, he's 1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:38.160 going to be cast into the Bog of Eternal Stench. 1:12:38.479 --> 1:12:41.559 The premise is that the bog smells very bad, and 1:12:41.840 --> 1:12:44.840 if any part of your body touches the liquid in 1:12:44.880 --> 1:12:46.599 the bog, you will stink forever. 1:12:47.479 --> 1:12:50.559 Yeah, for the rest of your life. And I've long 1:12:50.760 --> 1:12:53.200 puzzled over that, like how did it works? How does 1:12:53.240 --> 1:12:56.280 it permanently taint you like that? Does it change your biology? 1:12:56.760 --> 1:12:59.559 What would it look like in like Dungeons and Dragons rules? 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:04.120 Is it like a permanent like disadvantage to all charisma 1:13:04.200 --> 1:13:05.479 roles or something? I don't know. 1:13:05.960 --> 1:13:08.559 Yeah, now here in the Bog of Eternal Stench, they're 1:13:08.600 --> 1:13:12.920 trying to get get out without touching the cursed water, 1:13:13.560 --> 1:13:15.759 and at one point they need to cross a bridge, 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:18.960 but their path is blocked by a feisty little character 1:13:19.120 --> 1:13:21.719 who will later become part of our group of friends. 1:13:22.120 --> 1:13:25.360 This is Surditymus, who I think is either supposed to 1:13:25.400 --> 1:13:28.080 be a fox or some type of dog, though it's 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:31.040 sort of confusing because he's a muppet who is an 1:13:31.040 --> 1:13:34.840 anthropomorphic fox or dog, but he rides a dog. He's 1:13:34.840 --> 1:13:36.880 got a dog that is a dog and he rides 1:13:36.960 --> 1:13:37.360 the dog. 1:13:37.600 --> 1:13:41.360 Yeah, it's kind of the Pluto Goofy paradox once more. 1:13:41.640 --> 1:13:45.439 Yes, Yeah, Sirditamus is kind of a reap, a cheap 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:49.200 sort of character. He's like, he's very small, and feisty 1:13:49.400 --> 1:13:53.479 and thinks himself very chivalrous and he's always itching for 1:13:53.520 --> 1:13:53.880 a fight. 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:56.720 Yeah, he's a lot of fun. He's he's always down 1:13:56.760 --> 1:14:00.519 to joust, but his mount of course frequent as not, 1:14:00.680 --> 1:14:01.360 as we'll see. 1:14:01.680 --> 1:14:06.240 So Sarah, Ludo, and Hoggle are trying to trying to 1:14:06.240 --> 1:14:08.120 get through this place, and I think they get blocked 1:14:08.120 --> 1:14:10.559 at a bridge by Sir Dinimus. But I think Sarah 1:14:10.640 --> 1:14:14.040 is the one who figures out that Sir Dinimus is saying, 1:14:14.040 --> 1:14:16.639 no one may pass this bridge without my permission, so 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:19.519 she realizes she can just ask his permission. It seems 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:21.800 this has never occurred to Sirditimus, that he can just 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:24.000 grant permission and still keep his vow. 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:27.240 Yeah. Yeah, he's like, oh yeah, sure granted. They're like 1:14:27.240 --> 1:14:28.280 all right, good, let's go. 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:31.640 Yeah, and so they're like leaving. Now. There is an 1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:34.920 interesting thing here where we discovered that Ludo is not 1:14:35.040 --> 1:14:38.839 only friend to Sarah, he is also friend to Rocks. 1:14:39.000 --> 1:14:41.680 Because there's one point where Sarah is sort of like, 1:14:41.880 --> 1:14:44.680 I think a bridge collapses underneath her. She's dangling over 1:14:44.720 --> 1:14:47.760 the bog by hanging onto a tree branch, and she 1:14:47.960 --> 1:14:51.479 is saved when Ludo summons his rock friends to emerge 1:14:51.560 --> 1:14:53.200 up out of the earth so that she can use 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:55.040 them as stepstones to cross the water. 1:14:55.479 --> 1:14:57.400 That's right, And of course this will come into play 1:14:58.280 --> 1:15:00.800 in one of the big climaxes picture. 1:15:00.800 --> 1:15:03.640 Now there is up here somewhere we get one of 1:15:03.680 --> 1:15:08.559 the Hoggle betrayals, because Hoggle gives Sarah a poisoned peach 1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:12.799 that the Goblin King gave to him, and this turns 1:15:13.160 --> 1:15:15.760 this sort of sends Sarah into a trance where she 1:15:16.000 --> 1:15:20.800 experiences a magic masquerade ball where she is she is 1:15:20.840 --> 1:15:23.960 tempted to divert from her mission to save Toby and 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:26.680 instead just sort of, I don't know, becomes some kind 1:15:26.720 --> 1:15:27.920 of evil queen of magic. 1:15:28.760 --> 1:15:32.240 Yeah. Yeah, it's like this is one of Jared's temptations 1:15:32.280 --> 1:15:34.080 to her, like this is what your life could be 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:36.880 if you just loved me and stayed with me here 1:15:36.920 --> 1:15:40.320 in this realm. And so it's this dreamy but also 1:15:41.040 --> 1:15:45.880 frightening sequence, you know, it is it feels like some 1:15:45.920 --> 1:15:49.160 sort of a weird trip, you know, it's it's a 1:15:49.160 --> 1:15:51.920 great sequence, but it's not like there are there are 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:54.320 a lot of uncanny elements to it. They're creepy masks, 1:15:55.200 --> 1:15:59.000 you know, sort of typical I guess, you know, period 1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:04.240 mass that the other dancers are wearing. They're Also there's 1:16:04.280 --> 1:16:09.360 a feeling of actually being like drugged, of reality being 1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:11.320 slowed down because she is drugged. But we have to 1:16:11.320 --> 1:16:14.240 remember if she ate a poisoned peach and that's how 1:16:14.240 --> 1:16:17.719 she's entered into this realm. And it's this feeling of like, Okay, 1:16:17.760 --> 1:16:21.360 now the hallucination is upon her, and can she recognize 1:16:21.360 --> 1:16:24.200 it for the hallucination it is and break free from it? 1:16:24.560 --> 1:16:26.360 And in the midst of this, of course, we have 1:16:26.400 --> 1:16:29.559 another musical number, we get as the World Falls Down, 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:33.200 which I mean, no big surprise. I love all of 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:35.360 these songs, so I will also say this one is 1:16:35.360 --> 1:16:38.880 a great one. But but yeah, it's It has a 1:16:38.960 --> 1:16:41.559 nice dreamy air to it, a nice dancing and slow 1:16:41.600 --> 1:16:44.439 motion within a silver prison kind of a song. 1:16:52.560 --> 1:16:55.760 Now, Sarah does not fully succumb to these temptations, and 1:16:55.800 --> 1:16:58.960 she does wake up in a different place. She she 1:16:59.200 --> 1:17:02.120 wakes up in a sort of a garbage world, a 1:17:02.600 --> 1:17:06.559 giant junkyard that seems to lie outside of the Goblin City, 1:17:07.200 --> 1:17:09.800 and she meets a character who is like a junk 1:17:09.840 --> 1:17:14.160 trader woman who I think is trying to like, Sarah's 1:17:14.240 --> 1:17:18.160 memory seems only partially intact at this point, and she's 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:20.960 not fully aware of what she was supposed to be doing, 1:17:21.560 --> 1:17:24.800 and this junk trader woman is like offering her up 1:17:24.880 --> 1:17:29.479 little like trinkets and baubles and toys to I think 1:17:29.520 --> 1:17:32.280 this is part of a different type of temptation we 1:17:32.280 --> 1:17:35.320 were talking about earlier about her like multiple different desires 1:17:35.360 --> 1:17:37.240 at the beginning of the movie, and this is the 1:17:37.280 --> 1:17:40.240 temptation to just sort of regress, to go back into 1:17:40.439 --> 1:17:45.040 childhood and just obsess over over little trinkets and selfish 1:17:45.160 --> 1:17:49.920 toys and collecting little magic, glittering things. And the lady 1:17:49.960 --> 1:17:52.200 of the junk world is trying to tempt her into 1:17:52.240 --> 1:17:52.840 that fate. 1:17:53.800 --> 1:17:56.280 Yeah, it's a great sequence. It's also perhaps a little 1:17:56.320 --> 1:17:59.000 bit frightening because we you know, she goes into what 1:17:59.040 --> 1:18:02.080 seems to be her child room and it seems like 1:18:02.120 --> 1:18:05.240 maybe she's back, but then imburse the junk lady, and 1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:08.640 the junk Lady has this enormous backpack of stuff that 1:18:08.720 --> 1:18:13.280 has just seemed to like crush and wither her. And 1:18:13.439 --> 1:18:16.400 there is this scene where Sarah's seated in front of 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:18.719 her mirror in her childhood room, but the junk Lady 1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:21.639 is bringing her all over things, and at least visibly 1:18:21.680 --> 1:18:25.080 from an a visible sense, piling up like a pile 1:18:25.120 --> 1:18:28.519 of things behind Sarah's back, as if constructing her own 1:18:28.600 --> 1:18:32.640 backpack that will eventually wither and crush her. You know, like, 1:18:32.720 --> 1:18:35.760 here are your earthly possessions. They are meaningful in and 1:18:35.800 --> 1:18:39.000 of themselves, and this is what you should cling to. 1:18:39.680 --> 1:18:42.919 You know, forget what they might represent. That's not important. 1:18:42.960 --> 1:18:45.320 Here's your stuff. Just focus on your stuff. 1:18:45.520 --> 1:18:49.000 But fortunately, while being weighed down with these things that 1:18:49.080 --> 1:18:51.280 I think, in the view of the movie, don't really matter, 1:18:51.360 --> 1:18:55.160 all these trinkets and treasures, she is saved by the 1:18:55.200 --> 1:18:58.400 things that do matter, which are her friendships. She starts 1:18:58.439 --> 1:19:01.000 to kind of realize something is wrong. The place is 1:19:01.000 --> 1:19:03.400 sort of crumbling, and she's like climbing out of this 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:06.960 false room prison, and she is. She meets up with 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:11.880 and is rescued by her group of friends, including Hoggle, Anderditimus, and. 1:19:11.880 --> 1:19:14.640 Ludo, and so from here, basically to get to the 1:19:15.040 --> 1:19:17.360 Castle of the Center of the Center of the Goblin City, 1:19:17.680 --> 1:19:21.559 they're like two more obstacles. First there's like the gate, 1:19:21.840 --> 1:19:24.240 which has a big automaton in it, and then there 1:19:24.320 --> 1:19:29.839 is the Goblin City. The automaton battle is a sequence 1:19:29.880 --> 1:19:32.320 that I've always found to be very visually impressive. You know, 1:19:32.360 --> 1:19:36.519 I really like the creature design here, but it also 1:19:36.640 --> 1:19:38.840 has always felt like kind of a natural bathroom break. 1:19:39.200 --> 1:19:42.200 I don't know, there's something about it that it shouldn't. 1:19:42.880 --> 1:19:45.240 I'm not saying it's boring, but it is not as 1:19:45.280 --> 1:19:46.439 exciting as it should be. 1:19:46.640 --> 1:19:48.920 Hoggle is actually this is one where we get to 1:19:48.920 --> 1:19:51.479 see Hoggles brave though he's the one who defeats the 1:19:51.520 --> 1:19:52.280 Goblin mech. 1:19:52.600 --> 1:19:56.479 Yeah, it's actually it's absolutely essential from that standpoint, But 1:19:56.880 --> 1:19:59.120 I don't know, I've always found something was lacking here. 1:19:59.520 --> 1:20:02.559 But anyway, we passed that test and now the party 1:20:02.640 --> 1:20:05.680 is united. Everyone's behind Sarah. But they have to move 1:20:05.720 --> 1:20:08.280 through the Goblin City, and that's where they are met 1:20:08.360 --> 1:20:12.599 with the Goblin army and we get this enormous battle. 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:16.320 It's a real blast, a mad cap, slapstick battle for 1:20:16.360 --> 1:20:19.960 the ages, featuring every goblin you've seen in the film 1:20:20.000 --> 1:20:23.679 thus far. Just hordes of goblins of varying types, all 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:29.879 sorts of shenanigans, explosions, sword fights, ludo calls the rocks. 1:20:30.840 --> 1:20:33.080 I always enjoy watching this sequence. 1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:36.280 It's a great thing when he calls the rocks for help, 1:20:36.280 --> 1:20:38.680 and then we get to see boulders rolling uphill to 1:20:38.720 --> 1:20:39.840 attack the goblins. 1:20:41.000 --> 1:20:43.479 So they get through that, and then it's time for 1:20:43.520 --> 1:20:48.400 the final showdown with Jarreff in Jareth's stronghold, and we 1:20:48.439 --> 1:20:51.280 get the scene where we see versions of this in 1:20:51.320 --> 1:20:53.120 a lot of pictures, right, and a lot of stories. 1:20:53.400 --> 1:20:55.599 Sarah has to go in alone. She has to confront 1:20:55.680 --> 1:20:59.280 Jareth alone. Her friends can't help her in this part 1:20:59.320 --> 1:21:01.240 of the quest, and so they say goodbye to her 1:21:01.520 --> 1:21:06.040 and she ventures into this mc escher world of you know, 1:21:06.320 --> 1:21:08.840 mind bending paradoxical staircases. 1:21:09.479 --> 1:21:11.799 That's right, and it's not just a comparison. She basically 1:21:12.000 --> 1:21:15.200 literally is in the MCEs you're drawing with the staircases 1:21:15.280 --> 1:21:17.120 and the doorways going in every direction. 1:21:17.439 --> 1:21:19.160 Yeah, this was another I think there's a poster in 1:21:19.200 --> 1:21:20.639 her room to this effect as well. 1:21:21.240 --> 1:21:23.679 Yeah, and we get a song here, right. 1:21:23.920 --> 1:21:27.080 Yeah, this is within you. That is it's really great 1:21:27.080 --> 1:21:29.760 because it's threatening, it's very threatening in places, but it's 1:21:29.800 --> 1:21:34.080 also very vulnerable in places. And Bowie's vocal performance here 1:21:34.120 --> 1:21:36.600 is great too, because you have these parts of it 1:21:36.640 --> 1:21:40.439 where he's very firm and commanding, and then other bits 1:21:40.479 --> 1:21:44.160 where his voice is like trailing off and growing weak, 1:21:44.720 --> 1:21:47.839 like almost like he is dying while singing it. Because 1:21:47.840 --> 1:21:50.639 this is all, of course Jared's final appeal to Sarah, 1:21:50.720 --> 1:21:55.000 like please, you know, just fall in line, you know, 1:21:55.120 --> 1:22:00.679 be here with me, don't defy me. And no, Sarah 1:22:00.720 --> 1:22:02.720 is going to stick to her guns and she is 1:22:02.760 --> 1:22:06.000 going to do what it takes to defeat Jarreff. What 1:22:06.160 --> 1:22:09.400 exactly that is I still have questions about, but she doesn't. 1:22:09.840 --> 1:22:12.800 Well, I checked. So what she does to defeat him 1:22:12.880 --> 1:22:17.400 is she remembers the words, which is interesting because that's 1:22:17.439 --> 1:22:20.160 the same thing she did to get into this trouble 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:23.839 in the first place. By remembering the words, the lines 1:22:23.920 --> 1:22:26.919 from the Goblin story. That's how she got Toby kidnapped 1:22:26.920 --> 1:22:30.240 by the goblins. Remembering the lines from the story is 1:22:30.280 --> 1:22:33.840 also how she defeats Jarref. She says she has the 1:22:33.880 --> 1:22:36.000 same lines she was reciting at the very beginning of 1:22:36.000 --> 1:22:39.879 the story when she says, through dangers untold and hardship's unnumbered, 1:22:39.920 --> 1:22:41.920 I fought my way here to the castle beyond the 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:44.160 Goblin City, and so on and so on. It goes 1:22:44.200 --> 1:22:47.320 on several more sentences, but it ends with her remembering 1:22:47.360 --> 1:22:49.879 the final line that she couldn't remember at the beginning. 1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:53.200 My kingdom is as great and you have no power 1:22:53.320 --> 1:22:56.160 over me. She repeats this, you have no power over me. 1:22:56.760 --> 1:22:59.720 And then I think the clock chimes midnight or one 1:23:00.040 --> 1:23:02.000 of it is that the time that she had to 1:23:02.120 --> 1:23:06.160 rescue Toby by and Jarreth is defeated, and so she 1:23:06.520 --> 1:23:08.880 gets to go back home with Toby. 1:23:08.720 --> 1:23:10.800 Thirteen o'clock, I believe, I think, I don't know if 1:23:10.800 --> 1:23:12.000 it's thirteen pm. 1:23:11.800 --> 1:23:15.960 Or am, But I like how there's an ending where 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:20.200 she sort of reconciles her earlier frustrations with Toby, Like 1:23:20.240 --> 1:23:25.120 she you know, repents of her earlier scapegoating of Toby 1:23:25.200 --> 1:23:27.880 because Toby wasn't really the problem, you know, she was, Like, 1:23:28.520 --> 1:23:31.400 she's just struggling with herself and her role in life 1:23:31.400 --> 1:23:34.680 at this point, and I think she has some perspective 1:23:34.720 --> 1:23:37.160 on that. But also I like how she ends up 1:23:37.200 --> 1:23:43.000 sort of reconciling her relationship with fantasy. She realizes she 1:23:43.080 --> 1:23:45.760 has to part ways with her magical friends, she has 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:47.920 to live in this world, but she also needs to 1:23:47.920 --> 1:23:49.280 see them from time to time. 1:23:49.920 --> 1:23:50.160 Yeah. 1:23:50.320 --> 1:23:54.439 Yeah, So she defeats Jared again, I never doubt this 1:23:54.560 --> 1:23:57.800 on an emotional level, you know what's happening, Like she 1:23:57.840 --> 1:24:00.559 finds the strength to overcome him, and then she's back 1:24:00.600 --> 1:24:03.519 in her room. She sees like the reflection of her 1:24:03.560 --> 1:24:06.599 friends through the mirror, but realize that she can call 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:08.559 on them when she needs them, and then she does 1:24:08.920 --> 1:24:11.160 and we get like a final big party sequence in 1:24:11.160 --> 1:24:14.360 her room, which is great. Though I've always been disturbed 1:24:14.400 --> 1:24:18.680 by the fact that the Fire Gang members are there, Yes, like, 1:24:18.760 --> 1:24:20.640 why did you invite them? Why did you could have 1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:23.160 maybe just let them go, Sarah, It's right, you don't 1:24:23.160 --> 1:24:26.400 have to keep all of these strange creatures. Maybe let 1:24:26.479 --> 1:24:29.160 the fire guys go off and live their own life 1:24:29.160 --> 1:24:32.760 and oblivion. But no, they're there as well, but they 1:24:32.800 --> 1:24:34.439 seem to be well behaved. They're not trying to pull 1:24:34.479 --> 1:24:35.200 anybody apart. 1:24:35.640 --> 1:24:40.439 I invited the bog of eternal stench here it's in 1:24:40.520 --> 1:24:41.439 my sink now. 1:24:41.760 --> 1:24:45.559 And we once more get the theme song underground and 1:24:45.600 --> 1:24:49.120 we roll back. We see that the owl, the animal 1:24:49.200 --> 1:24:51.719 form of Jarreff, has like been watching through the window 1:24:52.040 --> 1:24:54.160 and then takes off and flies away into the night. 1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:57.559 It's beautiful, it is. It's like I say, very like 1:24:57.640 --> 1:25:01.719 emotionally and visually beautiful, satisfying conclusion to the picture. 1:25:02.040 --> 1:25:04.559 So in the end, you agree with Ciskel that it's awful, 1:25:04.720 --> 1:25:05.719 ugly and terrible. 1:25:06.520 --> 1:25:11.400 I could not disagree with Ciskel more on Labyrinth. I 1:25:11.439 --> 1:25:14.120 mean the thing. It really was challenging to talk about 1:25:14.160 --> 1:25:16.880 Labyrinth here in some respects because you could go on 1:25:16.960 --> 1:25:18.599 and on, or I could go on and on about 1:25:18.640 --> 1:25:22.320 just about any moment in the picture. There's always something 1:25:22.360 --> 1:25:25.640 interesting going on in the set design or in the costuming, 1:25:26.120 --> 1:25:29.839 in the particular dialogue choices that are in play lyrics 1:25:29.840 --> 1:25:32.320 to the songs. There are some weird lyrics to these 1:25:32.320 --> 1:25:35.080 songs we didn't even get into. There are also lines 1:25:35.120 --> 1:25:38.360 of dialogue, particularly from David Bowie. Some of them I 1:25:38.479 --> 1:25:41.400 never fully understood, Like I couldn't really understand what he's 1:25:41.400 --> 1:25:44.040 saying until like this viewing of the picture where I 1:25:44.080 --> 1:25:45.600 was like, all right, I'm going to turn on the 1:25:46.280 --> 1:25:48.360 captions for a minute, and it's like, oh, he's saying, 1:25:48.560 --> 1:25:50.599 well laugh, And I always thought he said well love. 1:25:51.040 --> 1:25:52.719 I don't know why I thought that was the line, 1:25:52.760 --> 1:25:55.799 but that's what I've been hearing for decades. Huh. 1:25:55.880 --> 1:25:58.599 Yeah, this is the kind of movie where I feel 1:25:58.600 --> 1:26:00.640 like a lot of things, especially and you're watching as 1:26:00.640 --> 1:26:02.479 a kid, can just go right over your head. 1:26:03.720 --> 1:26:05.640 But you know, there are lots of confusing things in 1:26:05.680 --> 1:26:08.200 the world of the Labyrinth. Yeah, you know, it's a 1:26:08.240 --> 1:26:12.160 film in a world full of paradoxes and illusions, and 1:26:12.200 --> 1:26:16.680 it's part of its texture. There was some essay I 1:26:16.680 --> 1:26:18.599 was looking at. Maybe it's the one I sided earlier 1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:20.760 talking about well, some people were confused when they saw 1:26:20.840 --> 1:26:23.479 Jarref when they saw David Bowie's Chariot, and it's like, well, yeah, 1:26:23.720 --> 1:26:26.880 you should be confused when you behold Jared. He is 1:26:27.120 --> 1:26:30.280 supposed to be this alluring and kind of confusing character, 1:26:30.520 --> 1:26:32.120 Like that's that's intentional. 1:26:32.800 --> 1:26:35.679 It was the confusion like why isn't he a goblin 1:26:35.840 --> 1:26:38.439 like the others? Like why are the goblins ruled over 1:26:38.520 --> 1:26:40.679 by a rock star who with a human form? 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:44.200 Right? That? And then also some of the aspects of 1:26:45.240 --> 1:26:49.600 Jariff being a like a sexually alluring character, but in 1:26:49.640 --> 1:26:52.400 a way that makes sense, like he is he is 1:26:52.760 --> 1:26:56.479 like his role is in relationship to Sarah, a young woman, 1:26:56.880 --> 1:26:59.519 and therefore he has these kind of like pop star 1:26:59.840 --> 1:27:02.840 las to him, you know. Yeah, And so there are 1:27:02.840 --> 1:27:05.400 a lot of deliberate choices with the way that he 1:27:05.439 --> 1:27:09.240 has presented as an object of obsession and desire. 1:27:09.200 --> 1:27:11.479 Like would be on a poster on a bedroom wall. 1:27:11.720 --> 1:27:13.880 Yeah yeah, but a bedroom but a poster on the 1:27:13.920 --> 1:27:18.280 bedroom wall that also is directly bordering of the fay 1:27:18.400 --> 1:27:21.760 world and is influenced by the strange energies of the 1:27:21.760 --> 1:27:22.400 fairy folk. 1:27:22.680 --> 1:27:25.519 Yes, why do you think jareded is an owl? 1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:28.719 Well, you know, the owl ism is a magical bird 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:31.280 of the night, so I guess it is a fitting 1:27:31.960 --> 1:27:33.040 animal form. 1:27:33.439 --> 1:27:37.719 The owl is dangerous, the owl is inscrutable, the owl 1:27:37.960 --> 1:27:41.320 is yeah, yeah, it seems like it's got secrets. 1:27:41.680 --> 1:27:44.160 Yeah, all right, Well, we're gonna gohead and close this 1:27:44.200 --> 1:27:45.759 one out, but we would love to hear from everyone 1:27:45.760 --> 1:27:48.080 about Labyrinth. I'm sure a lot of you have thoughts, 1:27:48.520 --> 1:27:51.240 thoughts about things that we discussed in this episode, but 1:27:51.320 --> 1:27:54.120 also again many of the details in the picture that 1:27:54.160 --> 1:27:57.080 we didn't have time to get into, so right in, 1:27:57.200 --> 1:27:59.559 we would love to hear from you or reminded of stuff. 1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:01.439 To Blow your Mind is primarily a science and culture 1:28:01.439 --> 1:28:03.760 podcasts with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on 1:28:03.760 --> 1:28:06.280 Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to talk about 1:28:06.320 --> 1:28:08.599 a weird film here on Weird House Cinema. And if 1:28:08.640 --> 1:28:10.160 you want to see a full list of the movies 1:28:10.200 --> 1:28:12.360 we've done over the years on Weird House Cinema, go 1:28:12.439 --> 1:28:14.559 to letterbox dot com. That's L E T T E 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:17.160 R B O x D dot com. 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