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Speaker 1: N and welcome to rewind with Karen and Georgia.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Every Wednesday, we're here recapping our old shows

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Speaker 2: with all new commentary and insights and updates.

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Speaker 1: Today we're recapping episode seventy six, which we named My

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Speaker 1: Own Sinkhole.

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Speaker 2: Oh. This episode came out on July sixth, twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's listen to the intro of episode seventy six.

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Speaker 2: Happy fourth of July. Hello, wait, let's start over. It's

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Speaker 2: not fourth of July anymore, so, oh, happy fifth of July.

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Speaker 2: It's not the fifth, it's the sixth. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 2: to my favorite murder.

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Speaker 1: Hi, welcome, thanks for coming. That's Karen kill Garret. What

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Speaker 1: do we always started? It's like it's super uncomfortable. We've

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Speaker 1: gone over this a million times. We're staring at each other.

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Speaker 2: I mean many start of us. We just stare at

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Speaker 2: each other to see who's going to go first, and

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Speaker 2: then the fakest voices that we have to offer come

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Speaker 2: out of our heads. And then we asked to start over.

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Speaker 2: But we don't.

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Speaker 1: And we never plan anything. I mean, what are you

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Speaker 1: going to plan? What are you gonna plan?

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Speaker 2: I mean we have an ending? What more do you want?

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Speaker 2: Who cares? Anyway? Of all the things? Have you seen

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Speaker 2: that picture? The newest pictures that have come back from

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Speaker 2: the Hubble telescope that show the galaxies, they're purple. They

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Speaker 2: did it basically, it's like black background they did. Purple

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Speaker 2: were the galaxies in the picture, and orange was the

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Speaker 2: gas the different things of gas that make stars. And

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Speaker 2: it like there's a countless number of galaxies in this photo.

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Speaker 2: We're giving me an anxiety attech. I'm just saying, who cares?

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Speaker 2: What we how we start this podcast? Do get? We're

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Speaker 2: start ust? Dude? Did or made a start? We? Really?

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Speaker 2: I can't even start to think about it. Wait, that

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Speaker 2: is it? The the vastness of space gives you anxiety?

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Speaker 2: The vastness of space, the reality of life? What is it?

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Speaker 1: What are we are? We're aliens? Clearly, I mean everyone is.

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Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually irish, which is worse and harder. There's you

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Speaker 1: know that podcast We love Mysteries abound, yet we go

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Speaker 1: to sleep too. The liking the last episode is like

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Speaker 1: are are humans actually aliens?

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Speaker 2: And it's like I got so into that episode that

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Speaker 2: when I landed, when I went to Pedloma for Father's Day.

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Speaker 2: When I landed and Lauren Adrian came and picked me up,

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Speaker 2: I got into the car and was like, so the

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Speaker 2: thing is that there's a really good chance we're all aliens.

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Speaker 2: So that's evinced too. He was, and I explained it

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Speaker 2: very poorly. She was like, I don't know. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: then then I turned to him and went night.

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Speaker 1: When Elvis was sitting on me and I said, do

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Speaker 1: you think cats are alien?

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Speaker 2: He was just like, no, I am.

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Speaker 1: Now I am the weird one in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: He is the like, uh, what's it called. He's the

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Speaker 2: voice of reason? Yes, that, oh, speaking of which, there's

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Speaker 2: a reason we can never think of the word trophy.

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Speaker 2: And I would like to say I would like to

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Speaker 2: take responsibility for it because I think every time it's happened,

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Speaker 2: it's been in my story where we feel like a

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Speaker 2: serial killer takes trophies. Yeah, they take a thing, they

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Speaker 2: keep it so they can look at it and remember

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Speaker 2: the bad thing they did. That's called a trophy.

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Speaker 1: It's all the word memento, which is what we use.

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Speaker 1: This is the fucking same word.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I guess, I guess the most often used

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Speaker 2: term and the ones that people tweet to us in

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Speaker 2: all caps with seventeen exclamation points after his trophy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so maybe here in the podcasting loft which we finally

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Speaker 2: moved into and everyone, are you gonna ever tweet picture

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Speaker 2: or put pictures on Instagram?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I just like didn't feel like it was done yet,

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Speaker 1: but I should just posted.

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Speaker 2: It's so good you guys, all of the awesome art

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Speaker 2: you sent us and dolls you've made us, and pictures

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Speaker 2: and everything Georgia has arranged in her loft obsessively, and

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Speaker 2: it looks so cool. It's super fun to write it

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Speaker 2: on social media.

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Speaker 1: But there's like things I want to frame still and

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Speaker 1: things I need to put up here and there, but.

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Speaker 2: I'll post it for now.

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Speaker 1: And there's also a drawing of a let's sit crooked

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Speaker 1: and talk straight, yes drawing, And I thought it was

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Speaker 1: so funny when I hung it crooked.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I saw it immediately and it made me laugh.

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Speaker 1: It's driving me crazy, like as a fucking OCD person,

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Speaker 1: But it's got a point.

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Speaker 2: There's a reason it's that way, the reason.

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Speaker 1: I don't need to download the app that is a

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Speaker 1: measure leveler. Ooh they have that I can have that dude. Dude,

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Speaker 1: you can have an app for anything.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: Man, when the grid goes down, we're gonna we're screwed. Believe,

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Speaker 1: nothing will be straightened. No frames will be straight.

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Speaker 2: And you won't know even if there are like landlines,

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Speaker 2: if they can get a hard line in some way.

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Speaker 2: Could you do you know even your own phone number anymore? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Do you know mine? No? I Vince and I purposely.

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Speaker 1: Memorized each other. So I'm gonna give it out right now.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great, please call us day or night. Do you

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Speaker 2: know what I like?

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Speaker 1: I'm super prepared, trying to prepare for earthquakes, you know,

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Speaker 1: and so I got like extra.

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Speaker 2: This is boring. This is so boring. Nobody cares. Where

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Speaker 2: does I take a huge step of die code thinking

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Speaker 2: you're going to cover for at least thirty seconds? Now,

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Speaker 2: preparing for earthquakes is necessary and a reality in California.

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Speaker 2: But would you do buy some flashlights?

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Speaker 1: Come on, jud it up a little bit, have a flashlight.

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Speaker 1: I have external batteries in my car and and my.

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Speaker 2: Hand crank kind no, no, no, they're.

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Speaker 1: For their phone, like like that have a charge on them.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh right, listen, everyone be prepared Yeah, that's it's

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Speaker 1: very important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a like a and I have an

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Speaker 2: earthquake kit in my front closet. I do, but all

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Speaker 2: I think of is what if that's the part of

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Speaker 2: the house that goes down.

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Speaker 1: Dude, I have one in the loft, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: clearly the loft is going to collapse.

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Speaker 2: What is it doing here? I stick flashlights under everything

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Speaker 2: in my whole house. Smart and I've actually when I

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Speaker 2: bought my house, I had to sign a piece of

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Speaker 2: paper declaring that I understood that my house is on

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Speaker 2: land that if there's a strong enough earthquake it turns

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Speaker 2: to liquid and sinks into the earth. What I will

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Speaker 2: get my own sinkhole, which is, as many people know,

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Speaker 2: one of my great passions of life is sinkholes.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a question. What kind of liquid liquid

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Speaker 1: are we talking about? Because it's something fun like kool aid.

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Speaker 2: Then I'm like, great, yes, I have there's a kooloid

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Speaker 2: spring underneath my OUs. No, it's because I'm near the

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Speaker 2: quote unquote La River. Uh, they're the one that's feet

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Speaker 2: from my door. Yes, well that goes right up kind

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Speaker 2: of near my house if you go north, and that

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Speaker 2: creates the water table is right, I guess close to

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Speaker 2: under my house. So basically, if the ground shakes, the

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Speaker 2: kind of silt or whatever ground is under my house,

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Speaker 2: we'll just mix with the water, become like sand quicksandbye

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Speaker 2: and goodbye and goodbye and good night.

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Speaker 1: So just things to skippers, come back, skippers.

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Speaker 2: This is what you need to know the most.

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Speaker 1: Skippers in places where there isn't and won't be earthquakes ever. Hi,

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Speaker 1: you never know though. Do you think there's a geologist

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Speaker 1: who listens? Is that an earthquake doctor? Yes, definitely, Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's going email. So you are completely incorrect about all

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Speaker 1: of this information. I signed paperwork listen, speaking of I'm

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Speaker 1: not oh experts, that's right. I have a letter, an

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Speaker 1: email from a girl who so, I did the Mainline murders,

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Speaker 1: the fucking insane Mainline murders last week, and the girl

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Speaker 1: whose dad was involved in the case emailed us. WHOA, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited when you covered the Mainline murders in

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Speaker 1: your last episode, as my dad was very closely involved

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Speaker 1: in the case. He prosecuted Karen Reinhart's lover, William Bradford

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Speaker 1: Patches Patches, the professor. Yeah for stealing from her estate,

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Speaker 1: so the one thing he got. In the beginning, he

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Speaker 1: described Bradfield as a master manipulator and a truly evil man,

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Speaker 1: despite being a prosecutor for over thirty years and putting

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Speaker 1: hundreds of murderers behind bars, including billionaire murderer John DuPont

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Speaker 1: Ooh wait, wait, is that the Fox Catcher guy?

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Speaker 2: Hell?

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Speaker 1: Yes, my dad says, no case has ever affected him

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Speaker 1: quite like this one. He's a father of four daughters,

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Speaker 1: and he still tears up when he talks about the kids,

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Speaker 1: the innocent children, and the discovery of Karen's art museum

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Speaker 1: pin on the.

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Speaker 2: Floor of the car.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I accidentally called her Carol at

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Speaker 1: the very end of it.

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Speaker 2: And let's just you were off the page though you

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Speaker 2: were just trying to talk. Yes, that's always a mistake.

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Speaker 2: It's the mistake that we're dedicated to making.

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Speaker 1: Yes, never apologize for like I just apologize. So Patches

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Speaker 1: and Principal Smith were co conspirators, he thinks, and that

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Speaker 1: Patches had agreed.

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Speaker 2: I'm just calling them this.

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Speaker 1: I agree to split Karen's life insurance money with Principal

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Speaker 1: in exchange for killing Karen and her children. To this day,

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Speaker 1: he's still heartbroken over the police mishandling the evidence that

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Speaker 1: led to j Smith's conviction and being thrown out. Thank

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Speaker 1: you guys so much, et cetera, et cetera. John Man

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Speaker 1: a JFK. Thanks again today Sex you don't get murdered,

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Speaker 1: Brianna ps and Steven said he can.

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Speaker 2: I read this? Steven? Oh no, you're gonna be embarrassed.

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Speaker 2: Steven said, fine, I don't want to embarrass you. Say

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Speaker 2: it and then we'll decide after Okay, we can cut

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Speaker 2: it out. Stephen ps is, Stephen Stingle, nop.

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Speaker 1: Is, Stephen Stinky, Stephen Single.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Steven, I'm gonna take this one. Can we say that?

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Speaker 2: Then you can cut this out. Obviously you're in charge

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Speaker 2: of this whole show.

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Speaker 1: You get everything out. I have so many, so many

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Speaker 1: listeners like this. Yeah, inquiring minds. He's a cat guy,

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Speaker 1: which lots of girls like. But don't mistake that for.

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Speaker 2: Innocence or or any kind of uh, don't mistake his

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Speaker 2: kindness for gentleness. What is the saying, don't mistake my

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Speaker 2: weakness for kindness. I like that. I saw that one

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Speaker 2: time on Tumblr. I dig it, right, Stephen, this is.

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Speaker 1: Going to be a dating profile that whole big clip

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Speaker 1: of this podcast. Where are you going? Are you going

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Speaker 1: to tender what? Everyone know?

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Speaker 2: I haven't decided yet. Okay, I think you should take

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Speaker 2: it over to what's it called too Many Fish the

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Speaker 2: Christian dating site. Too many fish? That is, plenty of fish,

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Speaker 2: plenty of fish. There are too many fish. I don't

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Speaker 2: like fish, so I feel like there's too many true. Yes, Stephen, religion,

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Speaker 2: that's really important to you.

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Speaker 1: I mean I am a Satanist, So so bring that

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Speaker 1: act over to too Many Fish.

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Speaker 2: And then for a change of pay speaking of traveling,

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Speaker 2: but can I just say one thing really quick please?

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Speaker 2: At the end of that email, did she start calling

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Speaker 2: the woman Karen because Karen was the daughter? Yeah, now

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Speaker 2: I know, only because my name.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, she said the discovery of Karen's art museum

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Speaker 1: pan at the floor of the car, So the kid's

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Speaker 1: the kid. But then later on, yeah, you're right. She

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Speaker 1: may know you're right she did fuck yeah, not just me, right,

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Speaker 1: I just want to make sure so I know I

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Speaker 1: feel thoughtful.

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Speaker 2: The mother's no, this isn't right. Okay. Anyways, here we go, well,

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Speaker 2: just so just so they know we didn't do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: should we start. That was just a run through. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to say this, the Cleveland murdering knows how to

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Speaker 2: meet up. They sent us pictures, they sent us a video.

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Speaker 2: There's a bunch of them. They're a good looking group.

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Speaker 2: They were all in a bar, enthusiastic, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of people were tweeting just saying what a great group

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Speaker 2: it was, how happy it made them to be a

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Speaker 2: part of it. Other people were writing saying, hey, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know, I wish I was there. And they ended

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Speaker 2: up collecting five hundred dollars for end back Law, which

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Speaker 2: is so cool. So thank you guys so much, and

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Speaker 2: congratulations and way to go, because that really makes a difference.

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Speaker 2: That's lovely. Yeah, that's nice.

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Speaker 1: Des Moine, Sorry, des Moines, sorry guys.

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Speaker 2: Sorry we're talking shit.

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Speaker 1: I actually have no idea what it's like there, but

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Speaker 1: apparently it's lovely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I was like a great place.

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Speaker 1: And I think there was an iom meetup too where

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Speaker 1: they went and saw Despicable Meat together and so as

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Speaker 1: a photo and I'm like, what, that's cool. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to make a bunch of cocktails with a like

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Speaker 1: funny name. Do you just go watch a movie that's

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Speaker 1: so good.

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Speaker 2: There was a somebody sent I can't tell if he

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Speaker 2: it was the person that sent it was wearing the

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Speaker 2: sweatshirt because he kind of looked like a model, or

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Speaker 2: if it was just showing the picture of a sweatshirt.

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Speaker 2: But you can get a sweatshirt that says des moin

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Speaker 2: d u h like it's basically spelled phonetically but also

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Speaker 2: dumb oin win made me laugh really hard. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: so we're you know, yes, we're going to do We're

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Speaker 2: on each other's radar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can I say one more thing about Murderina? So

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Speaker 1: on Instagram they're having I guess the thing called the

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Speaker 1: lettering Challenge, which I didn't know is a thing. It's

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Speaker 1: all these people who are like written to calligraphy and

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Speaker 1: like write in like lettering r.

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Speaker 2: This is a thing.

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Speaker 1: And so they're having my favorite murder lettering challenge. I

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Speaker 1: guess there's like a whole it's a whole community. They

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Speaker 1: have challenges for like the month and so there it's

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Speaker 1: hashtag letter MFM. And I think I found the girl

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Speaker 1: who was going to design my tattoo, my my favorite

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Speaker 1: murder tattoo.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's great. So do you want to get one

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Speaker 2: with me? Or should I surprise you? That is so

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Speaker 2: fucking weird. I had a dream the other night that

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Speaker 2: everyone in my family was getting a tattoo together, and

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Speaker 2: I was in the dream. I was like, really, Aunt Mary,

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Speaker 2: like in your mid seventies, Like I was just looking

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Speaker 2: on at my family, like, and you know what, we

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Speaker 2: were getting a tattoo of some toes. What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'll look it up, but yes, I'll

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Speaker 2: get a tattoo with you going together? Yes, okay? Can

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Speaker 2: I want to get mine all across my one haunch,

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Speaker 2: just my whole lip front to back.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm going to get mine, like what's this

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Speaker 1: called undernap armpit side of my body?

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Speaker 2: Ribs? I love it?

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Speaker 1: And then I'm going to get an SSDGM and this

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Speaker 1: chick it is clearfy really well, who I'll shout out

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Speaker 1: when I get the tattoo I'm going to have.

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Speaker 2: I'm having her design something. Maybe I'll get it on

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Speaker 2: my neck? Are you serious? No? My I used to

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Speaker 2: know a guy that used to call neck tattoos job stoppers. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: hand tattoos, But I don't think that's true anymore because

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Speaker 2: how many chefs do you see with neck tattoos or

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Speaker 2: like podcasters. I mean people who are tatted up are like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: fuck you. I run my entire company. I have a

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Speaker 2: face tattoo. Do you give it? Get it? And I

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Speaker 2: make more money than you and your dad? Come my

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Speaker 2: own boss. Too bad, your dad?

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Speaker 1: It's okay. Do you know my dad is driving lyft now?

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Speaker 1: And he said, I keep wondering if all these young

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Speaker 1: girls are get in my car are murderinos. That sounded

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Speaker 1: like he was going to kill them at person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he has to be careful with how he brings that up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So if you see Marty picking up on left, Marty,

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Speaker 1: I think that's.

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Speaker 2: All it's all for you. Let me say step I

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Speaker 2: was going to say, yeah, here's a little parner. There's

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Speaker 2: a little fun thing for for us, based on last

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Speaker 2: week's story. On your story, Karen, I know it's July

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Speaker 2: right now, but I think it's never too early for Okay,

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Speaker 2: all right, what is it? The Andy Williams Christmas Special?

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Speaker 2: Holy shit, Claudine Lange's first and this was the one

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Speaker 2: that like was it was it?

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Speaker 1: That?

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Speaker 2: It was? This is the highest ranking television show before

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Speaker 2: you got knocked out by some Super Bowls yeah, this

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Speaker 2: is the classics. This is and we spend a weekend

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Speaker 2: watching this. That is amazing. Do we save it for Christmas?

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Speaker 2: Just to go? Okay, July Christmas special event? Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much. Wait someone sent it to us or did

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Speaker 2: you get it? Steven?

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Speaker 1: Really good gift giving. You're now invited to watch it

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Speaker 1: with us. Okay, it's me this week? Right, Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: I knew. Now you know Steve's not paying attention.

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Speaker 2: I definitely went first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because now we're all back, We're all like, we're

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Speaker 2: all on it again. What's a bummer though?

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Speaker 1: And I think that we have this often is that

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Speaker 1: mine is a real bummer at the end. And I

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Speaker 1: hate closing with a real bummer. Yeah, but then we

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Speaker 1: have something.

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Speaker 2: That's why they have a positive That's why we turn

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Speaker 2: it hard, we take a hard left into positive land. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: People don't like when murder podcasts are a real bummer.

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Speaker 2: They don't know they do. Yeah, that's the whole point.

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Speaker 2: And we're back.

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Speaker 1: I want to go ahead and say right at the

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Speaker 1: top that because of this podcast and the murdering knows

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Speaker 1: who listen, I was able to help my dad retire.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't drive lyft anymore. He has a nice apartment

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Speaker 1: and a van that he loves. So I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to let everyone know that and thank them for listening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Every moment that you spend with us

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Speaker 2: has affected our lives and in ways that are so crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so crazy. And I mean like, it was a really

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Speaker 2: exciting time back then when you got new that split

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Speaker 2: level apartment, that high class, high ceiling split level apartment,

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Speaker 2: just so funny. And now I own a home that

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Speaker 2: is built on granite. I'm no longer in a liquefaction zone.

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Speaker 2: I got to move on up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're doing a location update. My dad is not

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Speaker 1: driving lyft and lives in an great apartment. Karen's house

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Speaker 1: is and not a potential sinkhole.

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Speaker 2: There's no secret rivers under me anymore. It's great, so grateful.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe that the big one hasn't happened though

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Speaker 1: since then. I'm sorry, that's so stupid to me to say,

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Speaker 1: but like I've been waiting for it, yeah, this whole time.

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Speaker 2: For a little while on social media or online or whatever,

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Speaker 2: the thing was that the calldera in Yellowstone was going

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Speaker 2: to blow and they were like any second. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: I think it's the kind of thing of a little

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Speaker 2: perspective of the thing we get told what to worry about, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and we don't realize it. So suddenly I here comes COVID. Yes,

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Speaker 2: COVID's on the way. But I'm literally all eyes on

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Speaker 2: Yellowstone every day of like how's the call dera? Is

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Speaker 2: it bubbling or not? It's like, how crazy is it.

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Speaker 1: That we just had no clue what was going to

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Speaker 1: hit us in a couple of years, Like of COVID,

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Speaker 1: we have no clue.

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Speaker 2: Unprecedented in our lifetime, yes, yeah, or sorry, yes, in

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Speaker 2: our lifetime. So I was like, wait, the Spanish flu,

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Speaker 2: but we weren't there.

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Speaker 1: For that in the twenty first century. Unprecedented, Yes, yes, definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yes, That's what I remember when COVID first started and

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Speaker 2: they were kind of like talking about quarantine, where I

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Speaker 2: was like, how are we going to do this? We've

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Speaker 2: never done it before, And the answer is we're going

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Speaker 2: to wipe down our cereal boxes and freak the fuck out.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of MFM tattoos, I still haven't gotten one, will

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Speaker 1: I ever, But I did recently have a great idea

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Speaker 1: for Vince and I what if we got each other's

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Speaker 1: MFM animated characters tattooed on ourselves. How cute would that

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Speaker 1: be if I got the little MFM animated Vince and

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Speaker 1: he got the Little MFM animated.

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Speaker 2: No, I let me explain this to you. I was

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Speaker 2: just thinking of, like, would it would Vince go.

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Speaker 1: Even No, I already said that it's not excited, and

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Speaker 1: then he reacted like you reacted.

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Speaker 2: Let's rephrase it. You're going to get a tattoo of

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Speaker 2: we watch wrestling, the logo of we watch wrestling across

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Speaker 2: your back, and he's gonna get MFAM. But I mean,

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Speaker 2: I love those characters. I love the way those characters look.

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Speaker 2: It would be cute.

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Speaker 1: If we had to get a couple's tattoo. That would

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Speaker 1: be like the fucking cutest thing, don't you think?

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Speaker 2: How big would it would be? Georgia as the mothman

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Speaker 2: on the back of Vince's calf, Oh my god, that'd

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Speaker 2: be even cooler.

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Speaker 1: If I was the mom double bird's whole leg.

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Speaker 2: That would be so cute.

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Speaker 1: Now he already does enough by wearing our merch, which

400
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Speaker 1: is above and beyond.

401
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Speaker 2: The fucking funniest. It is the funniest. He's number one.

402
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Speaker 2: What I really love is when in the live shows

403
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Speaker 2: just forgetting this part and Vince walking on to tell everybody,

404
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Speaker 2: here's the mic, and then I'm gonna stand over here.

405
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Speaker 2: The way that audience loves Vince is the cutest thing

406
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,959
Speaker 2: in the light. It's so sweet. I love it they

407
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 2: start screaming for him. He loves it. Also. I just

408
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: love that we're really laying down the groundwork the cannon

409
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Speaker 2: of sinkhole where it's like it's if anybody thought I

410
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 2: was a fake lover of sinkholes, if I was some

411
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Speaker 2: sort of bandwagonyer of sinkholes, you can just go right

412
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Speaker 2: back to this fucking episode. Karen goes way back. She

413
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 2: was into sinkholes before they were cool. I liked them first.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get into Karen's story about Mark Hoffman.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Mine is it's hard sometimes, as we've talked about,

416
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Speaker 2: to get for me to get my homework done. Yeah,

417
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Speaker 2: and especially when I will work on something for a

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Speaker 2: while and then if I have a friend who goes,

419
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Speaker 2: I've ever heard of this one? I will switch immediately

420
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Speaker 2: and go do my friends I switch? I switch.

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Speaker 1: You know you're halfway done. It's not like you're just

422
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 1: reading about it. No, I switch all the time.

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00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so many of these stories because you know,

424
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: you guys are just as into true crime, if not

425
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Speaker 2: more than either of us. So oftentimes you feel like

426
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,679
Speaker 2: I'm only telling a third of this story. I know

427
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 2: there's so much more. I should have read an entire

428
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: book about this whatever. That's what other people do. So

429
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 2: sometimes I'll bail just because I know a story has

430
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Speaker 2: much more to it and I should invest more.

431
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: T you're not going to give to a justice right exactly,

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Speaker 1: someone else already has.

433
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 2: But this one was so juicy and I loved it

434
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 2: so much. My friend Bridger is the one who told

435
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 2: me about it. He's hilarious. Uh he's he's very famous

436
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 2: on Twitter and he's a great writer and he grew

437
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 2: up in Utah. So he was like, have you ever

438
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: heard of this one? And I had never heard anything

439
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: about it. Turns out there's a forensic files, there's lots

440
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: of stuff, there's an amazing book. But anyway, I'll just

441
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 2: give you. I'll give you what I know. So we're

442
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: we're in Salt Lake City. Okay, what's this? Is there

443
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: a call? Is it called anything? I'm not going to

444
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: call it anything because I usually do that and then

445
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 2: I end up giving it anyway, I totally understand. Okay,

446
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 2: So we're in Salt Lake City the morning of October fifteenth,

447
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, and a man named Steve Christensen, who

448
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: is a businessman, a husband, a father of four, and

449
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 2: a bishop of the Mormon Church. He arrives at his

450
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: office on the sixth floor of the Judge Building in

451
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: downtown Salt Lake City. One time I did a story

452
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 2: and it was that horrible one about the woman throwing

453
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: her kids off the top of the hotel in Utah,

454
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: in Salt Lake City even and in that I threw

455
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: out the random idea that it was a very because

456
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, all of Utah, I assume is very Mormon,

457
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: that Salt Lake City would be a conservative town. Well,

458
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: I couldn't have been more wrong about that. Would like

459
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: to say now I now know, because of making that

460
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: mistake that actually Salt Lake City is the like liberal

461
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: part of Utah, and it's a college town and it's

462
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 2: the hip place, and it's probably best case scenario. And

463
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: if you're looking for, I don't know, a great shirt

464
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 2: or really cool flats, I don't know. So see if

465
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 2: Christensen gets to his office. He sees a brown wrapped

466
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 2: box shaped package in front of his office door and

467
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: his name's written on top of it. He picks it

468
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 2: up and it immediately immediately explodes.

469
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: Oh fuck here, I thought it was something else and

470
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: this is fucking let's do that.

471
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was a pipe bomb. Steve is killed

472
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 2: the Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Fight. Yeah, it's it

473
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 2: was a pipe bomb that was made with concrete nails

474
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 2: or inside. And concrete nails are the nails you use

475
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 2: to pound in. They're not made of concrete. They're the

476
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: really strong, industrial sized nails that you pound into concrete.

477
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: So the person that made this pipe bomb wanted the

478
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 2: person who picked it up to be killed. Yeah, So

479
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: the ATFUH officers arrive. They begin to piece the bomb

480
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: back together to figure out that it's a pipe bomb

481
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: and that was activated by a mercury switch that would

482
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 2: go off when the package was picked up untilted one

483
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: way or the other. So the minute the mercury like

484
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 2: shifts exactly, it's in a little glass circuit, and if

485
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: it is laying on one side of this little glass thing,

486
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 2: and then when you pick it up, if you put

487
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: it in chip it one way or the other, the

488
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: circuit connects and that's when the bomb explodes. So they

489
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: know from a bomb like that that the person that

490
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: the bomber dropped that box off, because they would have

491
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: to make sure it stays exactly the way it is.

492
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: They couldn't mail it, Yeah, you can't just give it

493
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: to somebody else. So also inside the bomb were Tandy

494
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 2: brand batteries, which is, as many RC enthusiasts snow, Tandy

495
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: is the radio shack brand of batteries. Really, so they

496
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: start going around to the local radio shacks trying to

497
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: find out who has bought batteries there, you know, the

498
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: past week or whatever. They also so find out that

499
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: Steve Christensen had recently worked at a financial company called CFS, which,

500
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: after doing huge business in the seventies and the early eighties,

501
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: had started losing money and wasn't serious trouble. So this

502
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: is the part that I actually found really interesting, because

503
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: so the eighties were like a time of big money.

504
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: That's when everybody pretended to be rich and preppies and

505
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: you know, it was like very Izod coke time. Yeah,

506
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: And apparently Salt Lake City in that time was a

507
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: hotbed for financial fraud. Really. Yeah, So what people would

508
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: do conmen would go to Salt Lake City and they

509
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: would kind of like get get into the Mormon Church.

510
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: They would either pretend they were Mormons or they would

511
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: be friend higher ups in the Mormon Church. And then

512
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: when they would do business, they would like say they

513
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: were in securities or whatever.

514
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: Stocks box they like, I got a ground floor fucking

515
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: thing to get in.

516
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 2: On, exactly. And then the elders or whoever in the

517
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: church would be like, oh, this guy is trustworthy. And

518
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: so then all the prishners or Mormons, I'm not sure

519
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: what you call the general word for, but all the

520
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 2: people in that church would then trust that person and

521
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: buy into whatever thing that that person was bringing to

522
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: the table, whether it was high finance or also very

523
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: popular pyramid scheme. Vitamin sales got to be very popular.

524
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: What the fuck back then? Yeah, so it was kind

525
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 2: of an ant. There was lots of Amway, low grade

526
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: Amway kind of bullshit going on.

527
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: They get the vitamins? Did they ever get the vitamins?

528
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: They ever get the vitamins they needed? I don't know,

529
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: but it was it was a kind of thing.

530
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: They call it affinity fraud and It happens in lots

531
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: of different different kinds of religions.

532
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: Just is wind my money is under my bed, right.

533
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: And trust no one. It's the same. It's the assumption

534
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: that quote unquote one of your own is going to

535
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: look out for your interest as opposed to an outsider.

536
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: Trust anyone, do you No, I'm scared of my cousin,

537
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: is any financial whatever the fuck?

538
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: And I like scared? Sorry, Well, because it's it's so

539
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: anyone can tell you anything, and if you don't know

540
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: exactly what's going on you it's one hundred percent pure

541
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: trust yea.

542
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: And people are that in the money, like they're in

543
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: the money and they want it, yeah, exactly, Okay.

544
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: Well, so it's the same thing Bernie Madoff did to

545
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: uh he got twenty billion dollars. As you well know

546
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: watching that documentary from Wealthy Jewish People. A guy named

547
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: Alan Stanford did it to Southern Baptists. He had a

548
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: seven million, seven billion dollar empire that fell. There was

549
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: even a con man named Monroe L. Beachi who became

550
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: trusted within the Amish community, and he went to prison

551
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: for orchestrating a scheme that defrauded twenty seven hundred investors,

552
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: many of them his friends and neighbors. What a dick.

553
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: So it's just a very common practice of like this

554
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: idea that your religion would would stand for your good

555
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: morals and that that therefore the business is trustworthy. It's

556
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: almost worse.

557
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: Con than just you know, clients, because yeah, these people

558
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: are trusting because they because if you're in their religion,

559
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: it's because you believe the same things they do, you

560
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: have the same morals.

561
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: They're they're they're going right on the inside. You know,

562
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: they're not just standing out and like rolling the dice

563
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: and maybe you'll believe them and maybe not. They're they're

564
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: asking you. They're playing on your ultimate faith, which is

565
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: very ugly. And in the Mormon religion, it was the

566
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: kind of thing where there I believe that a lot

567
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: I know lots of Mormons. I've grown up, I grew

568
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: up with Mormons. One of my good friends that I

569
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: used to work with, Betsy, is a Mormon. And you know,

570
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: it's it's a very moralistic they the life they live

571
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: is really the whole idea of it is that you

572
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: live this life based on your faith. So it's like

573
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: my friend just said it the other day, he's like

574
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: Mormons really walk the walk. So it's not just and

575
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: I maybe I'm only saying this because to all those

576
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: like design websites that you see these days, and when

577
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: you trace them back, it's like a young Mormon family.

578
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: But it's like the most beautiful you know, table setting, Yeah,

579
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: and the cutest design and it's like, here's a great

580
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: thing for your baby.

581
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: I've heard so many bloggers, like famous bloggers or like

582
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,239
Speaker 1: the big ones that have beautful websites for Mormon for

583
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: some reason.

584
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's kind of like it's the the whole

585
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: idea of like home building, Yeah, and like putting the

586
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: best into your home.

587
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: Right and being ambitious and always having something anyways.

588
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean these are insane generalizations. Obviously we're

589
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: not speaking for every single person that's in the religion,

590
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: but there is just there's something to them. There's something

591
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: to that. Where there's it, there is a there seems

592
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: to be an innocence that in the set and eighties

593
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: con men were like, oh, we can exploit this community,

594
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 2: this sense of community that they have. Okay, two hours

595
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: after Steve Christensen's attack, there's another bombing at the home

596
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: of Gary and Kathy's Sheets. Gary Sheets was Steve Christensen's

597
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: boss at CFS and his wife Kathy was the one

598
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: who picked up the package. It exploded in her hands

599
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: and she was killed. Oh my god, how I never

600
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: heard of this I know. So now the police are

601
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: thinking that these bombings are related to the failed CFS

602
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: business dealings, and so it could be a retaliation from

603
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: an old employee or even the mafia. Police talk to

604
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: the Sheets thirteen year old next door neighbor who saw

605
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: a tan mini van pull into the Sheets driveway the

606
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: night before around midnight and thought it was suspicious, but

607
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: all he saw was the car. He didn't see anybody

608
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: anybody get in or out. But then they also talked

609
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: to a jeweler who worked on the fifth floor of

610
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: the Judge building, one floor below Steve Christensen's office. His

611
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: name is Bruce Passy, and he tells the police that

612
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: the morning the morning of the bombing, he got into

613
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: the elevator with his father and there was a man

614
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: standing in the elevator wearing a letterman jacket but with

615
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: no letter on it, and he was holding a brown

616
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,239
Speaker 2: like paper wrapped box that said to Steve Christensen on

617
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: the top of it. And so he Bruce Passey describes

618
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: this man to the police, saying he's a white male

619
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: five foot eight, medium brown hair. The next day there's

620
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: a third bombing. This time it's inside a car and

621
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: the victim is seriously injured, but he's not killed. It's

622
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: thirty year old Mark Hoffman. He is rushed to the

623
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: hospital where he's in critical condition, but he ends up

624
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: being able to tell the police that he had opened

625
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: his car door and the package was sitting on the

626
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: driver's seat. With the action of opening the door, it

627
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: fell off and exploded.

628
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: Oh good, So he didn't get the full impact right, but.

629
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: He had a fingertip blown off. He had a huge

630
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: wound in his knee where parts of the explosives went

631
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: into his knee cat like his knee area. So he

632
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: was pretty badly injured. But immediately the police are suspicious

633
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: because if he had his fingers blown off, that doesn't

634
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: that means that the box was in his hands, not

635
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: on the seat, and then tumbling to the ground. Also

636
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: with the direction. The guy in forensic files explains it

637
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: really well, but it's basically the way they know bombs

638
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: explode in the directions they go. If the thing was

639
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: in his knee. Then he could not have been standing

640
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: outside of the car. He must have been inside of

641
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: the car, leaning over, And so they basically reconstruct it.

642
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: I want to watch that. I'm like trying to picture

643
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: up my head. And basically they with the trajectory of

644
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: the stuff that flew out of the bomb which hit him,

645
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: they realized he must have been leaning over the center

646
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: console holding the box, and basically inside the car. So

647
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 2: his story, why would you lie about that? Why wouldn't

648
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: you just tell him exactly?

649
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: I love when cops figure that out, like this person

650
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: killed themselves and it's like, no, the trajectory like yours

651
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: last week. The trajectory shows yes, that that person couldn't

652
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: have killed themselves.

653
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: And that's the relatively new forensic part. That's like what

654
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: forensic files is all celebrating because it's like, we you

655
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: would never have known that until forensics comes in and

656
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: is like hold up. So the police search Mark Hoffman's

657
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: house and they find a Letterman jacket just like the

658
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: one that Bruce Passy said the guy in the elevator

659
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: was wearing, and they also find they also see that

660
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: he has a Tan minivan. Oh shit, and there's gunpowder

661
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 2: that they find traces of around his house that match

662
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: the brand used in all three bombings. There you go.

663
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 2: So Mark Hoffman maintains his innocence, says he's the victim,

664
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 2: and he demands to take a lie detector test, and

665
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: he does. They give him a lie detector test and

666
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: he passes with flying colors. Shit. Yeah, so the police

667
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 2: start looking into who this guy really is. So Mark

668
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: Coffin was born in Salt Lake City on December seventh,

669
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four. Raised in a strict Mormon household, He

670
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: was a mediocre student, but later he was tested to

671
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: have an IQ of one hundred and sixty nine. Wow,

672
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: which is insanely high. That's one point over mind. I

673
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: feel like in stories I've read, people who are like

674
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: mad geniuses are usually in like the mid one thirties

675
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: to one forties.

676
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: I was going to say that, like, I feel like,

677
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: very very, very fucking smart is like one thirty I

678
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: think so, But like then genius is like one sixty something.

679
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 2: And maybe I like us trying to guess what genius

680
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: IQ of the dumbest way, Well.

681
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: I know when my brother was a kid with fucking

682
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: attention issues, they tested him and he had like one

683
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: very high up there because it's like.

684
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: Well, he's just fucking bored. Yes, that's why.

685
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I never I was not that smart

686
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: and I was never bored. No, I was always you're like,

687
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: I was so fascinating bored, not smart and bored.

688
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: Okay. So he collected coins as a teenager and when

689
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: he was when he was young. Uh, that's a weird

690
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: cut and paste. He collected coins teenager and at some

691
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: point he forged a rare mint mark on a dime

692
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: that was verified by an organization of coin collectors to

693
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 2: be genuine.

694
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: And when he was a kid, he tricked the shit

695
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: out of fucking professional coin people exactly.

696
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: He got he got the taste early of like, you know,

697
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 2: it's impressive.

698
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: I think so too. This don't kill people next.

699
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: I mean so in some In nineteen seventy three, he

700
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: volunteered to spend two years as an LDS missionary. When

701
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: he came back from his mission, which was in England,

702
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: he enrolled as a pre med major at Utah State University.

703
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: He married Dora ley Old in nineteen seventy nine. They

704
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: eventually have four children together, and she filed for divorce

705
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven. So in nineteen eighty Hoffman claims

706
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: to have found a seventeenth century King James Bible with

707
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: a document inside that he claimed to be the transcript

708
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: the Joseph Smiths, who was the founder of the Latter

709
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: Day Saints church. He had ascribed named Martin Harris, and

710
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: was supposed to be a transcript that Martin Harris brought

711
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: to a Columbia classics professor in eighteen twenty eight that

712
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 2: was originally copied by Joseph Smith from the golden plates

713
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: from which he translated the Book of Mormon. So I'm

714
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 2: going to say this probably incorrectly, but the general idea

715
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: of the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ the

716
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: Latter day Saints is Joseph Smith found golden tablets that

717
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: he dug up, and from those tablets he wrote down

718
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: the tenants of the religion, and an angel appeared to

719
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: him as he dug up those tablets to help him.

720
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 2: So basically, he presents this document, they freak out because

721
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: they're like they'd never it's a historical document from their

722
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: church they'd never seen before, and the church ends up

723
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 2: buying it from Hoffmann for twenty thousand dollars. Fuck. So

724
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: this not only sets him financially, but it also sets

725
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: his reputation as a historical documents dealer. So I wonder

726
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: where he said he found it. Oh, inside a King

727
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 2: Dame's Bible, so he okay, So he was already trying

728
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: to become like a historical book okay, dealer. So one

729
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: of the books, okay, that makes sense. It was a

730
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 2: really old It was a seventeenth century King James Bible,

731
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 2: so then it was like inside that it. So basically

732
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: he then starts for the next several years selling forged

733
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: quote unquote lost LDS documents to the church, the most

734
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 2: notorious notorious of which was the Salamander Letter in nineteen

735
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: eighty four. So he basically starts forging piece as a

736
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: historical text and bringing them to the church, and as

737
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: a church member himself, going I found this. I found this.

738
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: Now the church is part of it is like a

739
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 2: little bit like, oh, yeah, we need to we need

740
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: to be owning these papers. And sometimes he would donate

741
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: them and sometimes they would buy them from him, but

742
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: essentially it was it was text that they that was

743
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: relevant to them knowing about their own religion and the

744
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: and the founder of their own religion. So the one

745
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 2: that is the most infamous is the Salamander letter, which

746
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: basically said that when Joseph Smith dug up those tablets,

747
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 2: it wasn't an angel that appeared to him, but a

748
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: white salamander that uh uh so, So that was such a.

749
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: Change of the historical record, and they had never heard

750
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: that before.

751
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: They'd never heard it before, super freaky, and it was

752
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: kind of like they didn't know if they should announce it.

753
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: It put them in a really weird position because suddenly

754
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a very non religious sounding and almost

755
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: like a magical, witchy sounding version of the story of

756
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: how their church is founded.

757
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: That's a sound salamander was kind of like not as

758
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: cool as a snake is a snake?

759
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 2: No, uh well, but snake's in like Christian religion are evil,

760
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 2: So there's there's just something weird about It's an albino salamander,

761
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: like as opposed to an angel.

762
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: Man, I think he could have done better, well, a bear,

763
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: albino bear, a.

764
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: Blue bear, a blue Well, it turned out he was

765
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: actually forging all of these documents and he had lost

766
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: his faith in when he was a teenager, like he

767
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: went on his mission. Basically, he felt a lot of

768
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 2: pressure from his family because he was raised in such

769
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: a strict Mormon household. But he he was trying to

770
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: embarrass the church. So he was writing these documents and

771
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: changing these stories and basically adding in little inconsistencies and

772
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: mistakes so that the church would kind of be scrambling

773
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 2: and not knowing what their official approach should be. And

774
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: he and he was like a mass ster forger because

775
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: he had already sold Let's see this, here's the list

776
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 2: he'd forged. Unpublished poems by Emily Dickinson, signatures of Mark Twain,

777
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: a full handwritten letter supposedly written by Betsy Ross. No,

778
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: he tricked the Library of Congress. He tricked Sotheby's. He

779
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 2: sold signatures by George Washington, John Adams, John Quincy Adams,

780
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 2: Daniel Boone, John Brown, Andrew Jackson, Nathan Hale, John Hancocks,

781
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: Francis Scott Key, Abraham Lincoln, John Milton. Wow, this guy

782
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: is so lucky. He just finds all this shit, yeah,

783
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: and makes a ship ton of money off of it.

784
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: There was somebody named Button Gwynett. No, the signature was

785
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: the rarest and therefore the most valuable of any signer

786
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 2: of the Declaration of Independence. A guy named Button signed

787
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 2: the Declaration of this poor girl. Oh sure, no way,

788
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: Button Gwyne got up there. He also said he claimed

789
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: to have discovered a famous document called the Oath of

790
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: the Freeman, which is believed to be or you know,

791
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: some say the precursor to the Declaration of Independence. It's

792
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: from the sixteen hundreds and it was worth over a

793
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 2: million dollars.

794
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: Oh but this they never knew it existed until he came.

795
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: They knew it existed, but they didn't There were no

796
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: copies of it in America. Okay, so he had claimed

797
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: he found one and he was trying to sell that,

798
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: but it was the sale of that was kind of

799
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 2: held up because they were questioning its authenticity.

800
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: Finally, yeah, I was like, you know what we should do.

801
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: Well in this. It's funny because I think in the

802
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: forensic files they start talking about how they because it's

803
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: within the church and the way he did it. He

804
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: was a master manipulator. She was super smart, so he

805
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: knew how to do it where they would not. They

806
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: didn't question the documents because of who he was and

807
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: what he had already sold. So it was like, well,

808
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: if he sold something to the Library of Congress and

809
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: Southby's and all these places, we're going to question him. Yeah,

810
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: this guy's an expert and he's a Mormon, so get

811
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: him all the way in on the inside. But he

812
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: also would buy really expensive things, so he was always broke.

813
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 2: Even though he would make big money on selling these forgeries,

814
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: he would then buy like rare books, and he was

815
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: buying things so that he could then forge other things later.

816
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it's very complicated. And there's a book called

817
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: The Poet and the Murderer by Simon Worrel and that

818
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 2: tells the story of Mark Hoffman, but specifically from the

819
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: view of him pretending to have discovered poems by Emily Dickinson,

820
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: and the public library in Amherst, Massachusetts, which is where

821
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: she was from, collects money to buy these heretofore unpublished

822
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: lost Emily Dickinson poems that were fake. Yeah, so he's

823
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: he is like a he he was like one of

824
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: the greatest forgers or the you know, most infamous forgers

825
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: anyone had ever seen work. Uh, he's doing it. So

826
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: essentially what happened was he was trying to sell some

827
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 2: new set of documents to the church. Steve Christensen knew

828
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 2: a little bit about antiquities and old documents, and so

829
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: he was questioning. He was like, I heard this guy

830
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: is being questioned about the Oath of the Freemen. They're

831
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: they're not even sure, Like he's under investigation. We need

832
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: to look closer at these papers calling them out. Yeah,

833
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: So what he did was he plants a bomb at

834
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 2: Steve Christensen's office to kill him. Then he planted the

835
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 2: other one at Gary Sheet's house to make it look

836
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: like it had something to do with CFS instead of

837
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 2: anything to do with him.

838
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: Shit, that's fucking tricky. Yeah, I mean this guy is

839
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, tricky. He is a trickster.

840
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: He was eventually arrested in January of nineteen eighty six,

841
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: charged with a total of twenty seven counts, including murder, forgery,

842
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: possession of an unregistered machine gun, and Jesus Christ. Yeah

843
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 2: that's a literally Jesus Christ.

844
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: Uh a salamander. So he albino, Salomon bino. You can't

845
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: forget the albino.

846
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: I mean that all of their beliefs for hundreds of

847
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: years are one thing, and then he gives them paper

848
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 2: that's like it turns out an albinos salamander how to say.

849
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: They're like, you know, an angel sounds cooler, So we're

850
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: just gonna stick with that.

851
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 2: They're like, we now we need to have a really

852
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: big meeting, and.

853
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: What if we have to start sucking praying to an

854
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: albino's salamander?

855
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: I mean, would that ever even have been a choice?

856
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 2: So they say, also, so he had like six hundred

857
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: forgeries that got sold and are in the market where

858
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 2: they're still finding them. Yeah, I was gonna a yeah,

859
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 2: so there apparently, and he wrote a letter from jail

860
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: explaining which things that he did were forgeries because some

861
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 2: things obviously when he started out he kind of there

862
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 2: were valid ones. So but they're saying that they're like

863
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: there's some Daniel Boone uh uh signatures out there that

864
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: are fake that like, there's there's because there were hardly

865
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: any in the first place. But then Mark Coffin comes

866
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: along and suddenly there's four that are in the marketplace,

867
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,919
Speaker 2: which brings the value down right, And it turns out,

868
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 2: you know, three of them aren't real.

869
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: Do you think that his forgeries are now worth money?

870
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: A lot of money?

871
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: Some murderino types, yeah, or like is there a Forgers museum?

872
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: I'd go to that. I would to. I mean, I

873
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: think overall the historical signatures are gonna be worth the most,

874
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 2: of course, because they're like the you know, but I

875
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 2: feel like.

876
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 1: There's got to be like Smithsonian or some kind of

877
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: thing that's just.

878
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 2: Like, you know, it's a history. Look at this rap

879
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 2: bastard in that department. Look what happened. Yeah, I just

880
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: think it's funny that he did it so much. And

881
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: when you see the paper, like he would bake the

882
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: paper in the.

883
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 3: Oven, I was gonna ask, yeah, exactly like an old

884
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: Western all that they found all this, you know, they

885
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 3: found inc that he specifically mixed to match.

886
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: But then the when the the guy who finally started

887
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 2: investigating it forensically, he was like the new ones all

888
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: glow blue underneath a microscope because they're new, and so

889
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: he was just really easily able to once they knew,

890
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: start investigating all of them and just be like, none

891
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: of this is real. I'm sorry, this letter from Betsy Ross,

892
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 2: that's crazy.

893
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: I bet he'd be good at the lettering challenge. He

894
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: might bewriting.

895
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: He would add in. He'd be like, I believe that

896
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: this is a real I know going but anyhow. He

897
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 2: initially maintained his innocence, but at a preliminary hearing, the

898
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: prosecutors showed so much evidence of his forgeries and his

899
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: debts and all of the evidence linking him to the bombs,

900
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: that instead of risking the death penalty, he pled guilty

901
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: to two counts of second degree murder, account of theft

902
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 2: by deception for the Salamander Letter, an account of fraud

903
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 2: for the sale of the McClellan collection, which was that

904
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: last collection he was trying to sell when Steve Christianensen

905
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 2: stepped in. He confessed all of his forgeries in open court.

906
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: He was in January nineteen eighty eight. He was sentenced

907
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 2: to five years to life in prison. He's spending life

908
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: in prison. Five year.

909
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: Wow, and he's still there when we can still there?

910
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: Wow. Yep, that's smart coffin everybody.

911
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: At first, I thought you were going towards a Ted

912
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: Kaczynski route when I heard about a bomb. But that's

913
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: fucking crazy. I've never heard about that. Oh, to be

914
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: killed by a mom. Do you ever open envelopes and

915
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: you're like, I don't know what this is going to be?

916
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, that's my moth's thing. I never think it's

917
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: a mom though, a bomb though, Well, I'm a mom,

918
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: just a mom coming to tell me to sweep up

919
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: the kitchen. Money, do those dishes? Oh what is that fear?

920
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 2: They're just sitting there. You let him soak for too long.

921
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't just let things soak in cold water, Karen.

922
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 2: It's true. But also this was the eighties when like

923
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: this was back when you could walk into an office

924
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: building with a plane package. I feel like, you know,

925
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: as worrisome as it all sounds, we don't live in

926
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 2: that world anymore. It's like that was definitely a very

927
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: pre nine to eleven era. Yeah except that, Yeah, yeah,

928
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: but maybe not. You know what I mean. Well, I'm scared.

929
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: I know, I know you can be. Well, that's fucked up.

930
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: Good job, Thank you, thanks and thank you. I don't know,

931
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: thank you.

932
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, we're back, Karen.

933
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 2: Do you have any updates? I have a couple. Mark

934
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: Hoffman is still in prison. He's never given an interview

935
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: to the press. He's only corresponded with his family from prison.

936
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 2: Netflix had a three part docuentries that covered this case

937
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: called Murder among the Mormons. And victim. Kathy Sheet's daughter,

938
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 2: Gretchen Sheets Nicknees, grew up to actually be a detective

939
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 2: with the Salt Lake City Police Department because she wants

940
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: to ensure that Hoffman is remembered for what he is,

941
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: which is a cold blooded murderer. And she told the

942
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: Deseret Times, I think they've kind of idolized him and

943
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 2: given him a unique status I don't think he deserves. Yes,

944
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: he did those forgeries, but he also killed two people

945
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: and didn't care who he killed.

946
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: That's so important when we cover these cases that were

947
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: not idolizing these people and thinking, like, especially when we

948
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: do live shows, and really, okay, what if the victim's

949
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: cousin or brother or sister were in the audience.

950
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: Right, how would they feel if we were.

951
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: Saying this thing and making them seem like a hero

952
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: when they're not, Yes, right, or like you know, some

953
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: kind of anti hero. Like we don't want to do that.

954
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: We tried really hard.

955
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 2: Not to do that, right, But it's the kind of

956
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: awareness that we definitely had to develop over time. Yeah,

957
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: And it is the kind of thing. It's like hearing

958
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 2: from people and knowing and basically thinking that it made

959
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: their job a little bit harder because it was that

960
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: thing of like what if someone is there, and then

961
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: it's like, then if someone is there, right to that, yeah,

962
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 2: like represent them right while you're putting everything else together

963
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 2: and don't be cheap about it, which is what we

964
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 2: thought when we started this podcast. We were in this

965
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: like third person away commentator kind of thing, but no

966
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 2: one is that in true crime.

967
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: Right totally, and knowing that, like, you know, history is

968
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: written by the victors, like, don't take the reporting and

969
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: the you know, what's been written and documented about it

970
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: as face value because there's so many sides to the story,

971
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 1: you know, and.

972
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 2: Weirdly the victim side. It's new for the victim side

973
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 2: to be considered first, to have that part of it,

974
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 2: or like I think even just in the beginning, when

975
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 2: we would just call serial killers pieces of shit, yeah,

976
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 2: felt very revolutionary because it's like, oh my god, can

977
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 2: you believe they're saying that, and it's like it's a

978
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: serial killer. I remember I remember getting into an argument

979
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 2: with a guy who was really mad about toxic masculinity

980
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 2: ruins the party again, and he was like all pissy

981
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: about it because he was a men's rights activist. Essentially

982
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 2: and I remember saying to him, I was like, you

983
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 2: do know I'm talking about John Wayne Gacy's father, right, Like,

984
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 2: there's a context to this conversation, and it's about serial

985
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: killers and how that comes to.

986
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: Be totally Like, that's what you're defending.

987
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: You're defending us being mean to serial killer? Why right?

988
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: What do you mean?

989
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 1: And you were saying specifically toxic masculinity, So he's defending

990
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, not masculinity, yes, toxic right, Okay, dude.

991
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the game is you're not allowed to talk about us,

992
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 2: and what we were saying without realizing it is we

993
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: can talk about whatever the fuck we want to talk about, right, absolutely, Yeah, Okay,

994
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: so let's get into Georgia story now. And ma'am, what

995
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: a timely fucking story it is too. It's the story

996
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 2: of the Central Park five.

997
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm glad we were talking about the eighties and you

998
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: explained kind of like the money stuff, because mine takes

999
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: place in the eighties two and has a lot to

1000
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: do with class wars and all this stuff. Maybe should

1001
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: I not tell you the name of it? Whatever you think,

1002
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: because I think you'll know immediately about it. Okay, all right,

1003
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna yeah, I'm not gonna tell you, Okay, all right,

1004
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: So New York late eighties, it's insane. Jim Dwyer of

1005
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: The New York Times calls it completely it's ahrenic. You

1006
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,479
Speaker 1: got one side where there's just insane wealth from Wall Street.

1007
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: Everyone's getting fucking rich and doing coke and having eyes

1008
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: odds and such. Like we've said, the financial interest industry

1009
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: is booming after a long period of stagnation, and it

1010
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: got so bad like in the seventies and I think

1011
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: early eighties that the City of New York was going

1012
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: to file for bankruptcy.

1013
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: Do you remember that. I didn't know that about New

1014
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 2: York City the city was going to file for bankruptcy.

1015
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 2: But I mean, it really was so bad in the

1016
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 2: seventies and like the late seventies and yeah, the Carter

1017
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 2: administration where it was just like a recession, huge recession.

1018
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: Like we've talked about before, gas lines, you couldn't get

1019
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: gas on certain days. I mean, the whole the whole

1020
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: country was going through this, but New York City, because

1021
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: they had so much violence and that sort of thing,

1022
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: I feel like it was a lot worse. And in fact,

1023
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: so during the financial Crisis of the seventies, a ton

1024
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: of neighbor hoods in Brooklyn and the Bronx. The homeowners

1025
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: and the landlords were lighting the apartment buildings on fire

1026
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: and burning under the ground just to collect insurance money.

1027
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: So all these people had nowhere to live and then

1028
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: and they left them like that. So there are these,

1029
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: you know, looks like how you see how you saw

1030
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: Detroit for a little while, just.

1031
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's insane. There's sorry, there's a movie now,

1032
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 2: I can't remember what it's called. An Albert Finney is

1033
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: in it, and they have it's basically like it's basically

1034
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 2: a kind of a were wolf in the in New

1035
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: York City movie. But there's parts of it where I

1036
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 2: think it's the Bronx where it's just people maybe like

1037
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 2: kids whatever, playing in like their vacant laws filled with

1038
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 2: just burned out debris. Wolf exactly right. It's kind of

1039
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: a kooky. It's supposed to be scary, goofy movie. But

1040
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 2: you can see all that where it's like, now New

1041
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 2: York City is pristine and amazing, and of course, like

1042
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: the real estate is like.

1043
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: Once Giuliani took over and made it fucking Disneyland. But

1044
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: there's also photo not that didn't think that it's better

1045
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: when it was dangerous, but there's photographs you can go.

1046
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: There's a couple great photo one of the slide shows

1047
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: of New York in the seventies and eighties. And I

1048
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: mean just the subways alone are terrifying. Yeah and yeah,

1049
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: and they had kids playing on like mattresses and vacant

1050
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: burned out. It's just it's crazying crazy, And especially I

1051
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: think younger people who never saw that should go and

1052
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: look those photos because you'd be you're be very surprised.

1053
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where that punk rock came from.

1054
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was mostly in black and Latino neighborhoods

1055
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:35,919
Speaker 1: at this burning down was doing. Let's see, so both

1056
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: unemployment rates and crime rates were at an all time high,

1057
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: and because of the bankruptcy coming up, police and firefighters

1058
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: had been laid off. Municipal services were cut, including sanitation,

1059
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: and after school programs were totally cut.

1060
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: So these kids who.

1061
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: Had working parents had nowhere to go after school, so

1062
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: they were, you know, on their own in this insane city.

1063
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 1: And during this time, Son of Sam was on the loose, Yes,

1064
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: so people were fucking terrified to that as well. And

1065
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: then there was the Blackout of seventy nine, and there's

1066
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: a fucking great American experience called the Blackout, and I

1067
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: fucking everyone should watch it. It's so good and it shows

1068
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: what it was like at that time. And after that

1069
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: there were these crazy fires and looting and it never

1070
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: really got cleaned up.

1071
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 2: So you have abandoned buildings, you have all this stuff.

1072
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 1: So then in the early eighties, Wall Street suddenly boomed,

1073
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: created crazy wealth for people. I mean the wealth they

1074
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: had compared to what normal people had even was insane.

1075
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: And then the other side of the city is experiencing

1076
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: crazy poverty. The crack epidemic starts, crazy violence that's fed

1077
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: by and understaffed a lot of times racist and correct

1078
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: police department that is, you know, horrible, and there's class

1079
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: tensions and racial unrest. In about eighty four, crack came

1080
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: to New York and that just increased the crime. The

1081
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: crack wars came, so also giving really young kids access

1082
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: to a lot of money and weapons. So you just

1083
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: have these young kids and teenagers, you know, with yeah,

1084
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: all hell rigs last.

1085
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: That's that was like the way to get a job

1086
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: and to get out of the hood totally. Basically it was,

1087
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,959
Speaker 2: and for some of them it was the only way. Yeah,

1088
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 2: I always there's an amazing movie called Fresh. It's one

1089
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: of my favorite movies of all time. It's really good.

1090
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: It's a fat with this other movie with the Andy

1091
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: Williams Christmas Special.

1092
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 2: It's such It's about a black kid who's trying to

1093
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 2: figure out a way to get out of the bad

1094
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: neighborhood and the bad situation he's in. And it is

1095
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: so brilliantly written and brilliantly shot, and it's it's one

1096
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: of my favorite movies.

1097
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: I definitely want to watch that. Yeah, we need a

1098
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: fucking we I need, And I'm sure other people want

1099
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: just a lineup of.

1100
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: Movies you suggest, because it's never me. I think.

1101
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: I suggest documentaries like ken Burns and you're like, here's

1102
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: this movie that'll change your life. And I'm so, we're

1103
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: going to need someone to make a list of those movies.

1104
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 2: We're going to need someone with a mustache to write

1105
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 2: that down.

1106
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: Only we had of shit, I owe you money byo

1107
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: you okay, check, I forgot I didn't forget, Oh Steven,

1108
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. So crack came Hell breaks loose, all right.

1109
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 1: On a typical day in nineteen eighty nine, which is

1110
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: where the story takes place, New Yorkers reported not one

1111
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: day nine rapes, five murders, two hundred and fifty five robberies,

1112
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: and one hundred and ninety five ninety four aggravated assault.

1113
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 2: Shit. And that's later in the eighties eighty nine. God yeah, okay,

1114
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 2: So da da da da da da da da da.

1115
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: So the people who are experiencing this, of course, are

1116
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: the poor working class families. They're falling through the cracks

1117
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: La da da Brown and Latino Black and Latino communities

1118
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: in mostly Bedford sty in Brooklyn, Harlem, Brownsville, East New York.

1119
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: These neighborhoods are experiencing all of this. And then you

1120
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: have the Upper East Side of fucking Richish shit people,

1121
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: all right, for example, And then I'll get onto the story.

1122
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, Bernard gets he was a thirty

1123
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: seven year old Queen's Native white dude, nerdy white dude.

1124
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: He's on the subway and he starts getting accosted by

1125
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: four young black men. They tried to mug him, and

1126
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 1: he takes out a gun and shoots.

1127
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: All four of them, They all survived, but.

1128
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: He became known as a fucking subway vigilante. People celebrated him,

1129
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 1: and he was ultimately found not guilty on all charges

1130
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: except for possession of an illegal firearm and sentenced to

1131
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: one year in prison for shooting four people.

1132
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, so that's also sorry, But that's also

1133
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: the time that they started doing guardian angels. Where they

1134
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 2: were it was almost like people didn't believe anyone was

1135
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 2: going to help them with crime, and like the Bernard

1136
01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: Gets thing was such a racially kind of motivated situation,

1137
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: but also is just the these everybody it's the irony

1138
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 2: of like what you just said was the people that

1139
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: were in the worst neighborhoods, which were demographically minorities and

1140
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 2: people of color, were actually getting the worst of this crime.

1141
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,479
Speaker 2: But then it's like the white vigilanti that starts shooting everybody, right,

1142
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: oh you.

1143
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: Know, not like yeah, you don't go to these neighborhoods

1144
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: and ever, you know, there's work. These are working class people.

1145
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: I mean, they were working their asses off and they're

1146
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: not going to be able to move into other neighborhoods.

1147
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 2: There's so much racism.

1148
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 1: There's kind of this race war between white people and

1149
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: people of color. But it's you know, it's not everyone

1150
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: who's they're being affected more so right by this. So okay,

1151
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: so we'll get into this. Let's get into the Central

1152
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: Park five and the east side. Right. Oh shit, dude, yeah,

1153
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: all right, I'm going there.

1154
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 2: Sound all right like you're not. No, I mean, this

1155
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: is just one of the heaviest. The thing that I

1156
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: remember most about this case is how go you know,

1157
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 2: go tell me no, no, No, It's just it was

1158
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 2: such a big deal. And this was like when I

1159
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 2: was in high school.

1160
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, I was maybe ten, so I didn't

1161
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: My mom kept that away from me. So you'll have

1162
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: to jump in at any time. Yeah, tell me stuff. Yeah,

1163
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: all right. The night of Wednesday, April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine,

1164
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 1: around nine pm, approximately thirty thirty god emburbing sorry, thirty

1165
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: teenagers who lived in East Harlem went into the northmost

1166
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: part of Central Park and they proceeded to commit several attacks, assaults,

1167
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,439
Speaker 1: and robberies. Can you imagine thirty teenagers. I don't care

1168
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: what what fucking nationality or color they are, I would run.

1169
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: No. Teenagers are bad. Teenagers are bad people. Teenagers are horrible. Also,

1170
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 2: two teenagers are fine. Yeah, thirty teenagers thirty volume alone. Yeah,

1171
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 2: I don't care if they're women. Girls, I fucking run.

1172
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 2: I think girls are worse. Yeah. Here's the thing, though,

1173
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 2: were the do we know for a fact that they

1174
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: were committing those crimes or was that that was that

1175
01:03:59,120 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 2: like a fact?

1176
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: Well I can yeah, I have a list of great,

1177
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: great crimes they were actually committing.

1178
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: So I don't.

1179
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard because you want to see everyone is innocent,

1180
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: but they you know, and it was thirty so who

1181
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: knows how many.

1182
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: Of them are actually doing it?

1183
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: Right, So they attacked several bicyclists, threw rocks at a

1184
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: cab and attacked a man who was who they assaulted,

1185
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 1: robbed and left unconscious. A school teacher out for a

1186
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: run was severely beaten. They attacked another jogger, hitting him

1187
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: in the back of the head with a pipe and

1188
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: a stick. And they beat two men unconscious, hitting them

1189
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: with a metal pipe, stones and punches and kicking them

1190
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: in the head.

1191
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 2: Wow. So there was a group of these thirty kids

1192
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 2: and they were basically kind of wilding throughout the park.

1193
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: Well that's the word that was created later.

1194
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: Okay, Yes, so a chase ensued by the police, and

1195
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: about ten fifteen a handful of the kids are taken

1196
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: into custody, including Kevin Richardson and Raymond Santana. And they're

1197
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: both fourteen years old, so these you're young kids, and

1198
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: they're charged with quote mischief. So cut to one thirty

1199
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: in the morning, passerbys discover the unconscious body of Tricia

1200
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: Miley in a shallow ravine in a wooded area of

1201
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: the park, wearing only her bra. Tricia had gone for

1202
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: a run on her usual path in Central Park before

1203
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: nine am, I mean sorry nine pm that evening her

1204
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: and then when her almost lifeless body was found about

1205
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: four hours later, she had been knocked down, dragged or

1206
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: chased three hundred feet and violently assaulted. She was stabbed

1207
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: five times, raped, sodomized, and beaten almost to death. The

1208
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: first policeman who saw her said she was beaten as

1209
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: badly as anybody I've ever seen. Meanwhile, back at the

1210
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: police station, the kids were about to be released from

1211
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 1: custody when a police offer officer was told about Tricia

1212
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 1: being found, and then what followed was hours of intense

1213
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: interrogation using tactics to get them to wear them down,

1214
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: as now we know that's how you get a confession,

1215
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: whether it's legitimate or not. Exhaust them. They get no food,

1216
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 1: no drink, no sleep for almost two days it takes,

1217
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: and they're repeatedly told that they could go home once

1218
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: they confessed. And then eventually, after like two days, the

1219
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 1: boys turn against each other. They tell them they admit

1220
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 1: just to you know, go home. And these are fourteen,

1221
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 1: fifteen year old children that aren't bad kids. They So

1222
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: there's this documentary by Ken Burns and his daughter and

1223
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 1: it's this incredible documentary that I definitely think everyone should

1224
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: watch called These Central Park five and they talk about

1225
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: the kids' backgrounds and they're all good kids from good homes.

1226
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 2: None of them had.

1227
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: Ever ever been arrested or taken in before. You know,

1228
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: they were Little League baseball players. These were not bad children.

1229
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they also when there's a group of thirty, yeah,

1230
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 2: how do they know who through what? Rock? Who through

1231
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: like what? Basically it's the slowest kids get arrested. Well, yeah,

1232
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 2: go ahead.

1233
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 1: The thing is later, none of the people who had

1234
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: been attacked that night, aside from Tricia, were able to

1235
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: identify any of the boys who got who were brought

1236
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: in for this attack, so they probably didn't have anything

1237
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: to do with it, otherwise they would have been identified. Yeah,

1238
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: so they implicate each other and the assault.

1239
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 2: The boys begin to confess after two days.

1240
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: I already said that, So in their written statements and

1241
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 1: videotape confessions, each confessed to being an accomplice to the rape,

1242
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 1: although not participating in the rape itself. And they start

1243
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: telling details of what happened and how, and then they

1244
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: implicate three other boys in the attack, and they're picked

1245
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: up for question and Anton McCrae who's fifteen, Yusuf Salam

1246
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: who's fifteen, and Corey Wise who's sixteen, and they ultimately

1247
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 1: all confess except for Yusuf Salaam, along with and then

1248
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: along with the other two boys, the five of them

1249
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 1: are arrested and charged with the attack.

1250
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 2: The media fucking loses its shit.

1251
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 1: Which is such a big part of the story, right,

1252
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 1: And probably how you heard about all of this is

1253
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: it was huge news and the story kind of confirmed,

1254
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, the white New Yorker's image of what's wrong

1255
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 1: with the city and confirms their racial prejudices.

1256
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 2: The boys when.

1257
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: They confessed were calling it that they were wilding, which

1258
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: is a phrase that became huge and everyone used it,

1259
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 1: and it was kind of this reference to them all

1260
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: being these untamed you know, children running amook. They formed

1261
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: quote a wolf pack, which is also was what they

1262
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: made up.

1263
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 2: So sorry, those were the boy's words. Yeah, like that's

1264
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 2: what they were telling the police wilding.

1265
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, they called it wilding, which they made up.

1266
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 1: And then the underage suspects names were printed. Despite the

1267
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: fact that the names of criminal criminal suspects under the

1268
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 1: age of sixteen are supposed to be held from the

1269
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 1: media and the public, they also print the names.

1270
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 2: So they have been.

1271
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: Names, photos, and addresses, no fucking way of the juvenile

1272
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,959
Speaker 1: suspect before any of them had been formally arranged or indicted.

1273
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, who did it? What was it that?

1274
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: I just think that at that point it was so

1275
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 1: many of them.

1276
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 2: But it's basically the tabloid. Yeah, the tabloid. Yeah, seeds

1277
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 2: seeds Seed.

1278
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,759
Speaker 1: None of them are arrested, and they retracted their statement

1279
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: within weeks, claiming that they had been intimidated, lied to,

1280
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: and coerced into making false confessions, and the confessions themselves

1281
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,600
Speaker 1: were videotaped after they had been interrogated and confessed and

1282
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: written statements. That part wasn't taped at all, so they

1283
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 1: had no way to show that they were being fed

1284
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: information and coerced.

1285
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 2: So they only taped the part where they said I

1286
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 2: did it or someone else did it.

1287
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: They only taped the part after all this, when they

1288
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 1: had their stories down okay, and they knew the details

1289
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be talking about.

1290
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 2: It didn't tape any of the part where they make

1291
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 2: them tell the story five hundred times.

1292
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 1: Right, or you know you've seen these things that they say,

1293
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 1: is that what happened, That's not what happened. Tell me

1294
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 1: the truth, and they kind of feed it in this

1295
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: really creepy way.

1296
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 2: They lead them into the correct.

1297
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: Story, right, And who knows if they even do it.

1298
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 1: Do the cops do it on purpose? Do you think detectives?

1299
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 1: I just don't think they even know. I mean, most part, it.

1300
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 2: Seems like for a long time it was just the

1301
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 2: way things were done until people, lawyers and whoever writes

1302
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 2: activists came back and were just like, you can't tell

1303
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 2: them how it went. And then when they repeat that

1304
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 2: back to you because they want a sip of water

1305
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 2: or they want to go home and use it against them.

1306
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: Well it's the whole thing too, of like that shouldn't

1307
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,800
Speaker 1: be a missive. The confession videotape should not be admissible

1308
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 1: in court because there's no background, right still, Okay, it's.

1309
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 2: Like apropos of nothing essentially.

1310
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay. So meanwhile, Trisha's injuries are so bad that

1311
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: she's given last rites, like they think she's going to die.

1312
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 1: But after being comatosed for twelve days, she survives and

1313
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: was eventually able to talk, read, and walk. But she

1314
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 1: had no memory of the night of the salts whatsoever.

1315
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:08,639
Speaker 1: So now the trial, so usually the homicide detective usually

1316
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: they look in okay, instead of the homicide unit getting

1317
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 1: put on the case because they thought she was going

1318
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: to die, Linda Ferstein of the sex head of the

1319
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 1: sex crimes unit and her prosecutor, Elizabeth Letterer were put

1320
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: on the case and for some fucking reason, they're part

1321
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: of the police investigation from day one. So they're helping

1322
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: investigate this case thinking that these five kids did it

1323
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: and building the case around that. So they get to

1324
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 1: analyze the crime scene, they get to do all of

1325
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 1: these things that clearly are going to lead the case

1326
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: for the prosecutors.

1327
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 2: You know, but they were supposed to be the defense.

1328
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:50,679
Speaker 1: No, they're the prosecutors, right, They're the sex Crimes Unit

1329
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 1: and their prosecutors, and they are investigating case from the minute.

1330
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:58,480
Speaker 2: It happened, okay, And that's not normal, no, because.

1331
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:01,000
Speaker 1: This way they can skew the results in the direction

1332
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: they want, which is immediately for these five boys.

1333
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 2: Okay, So they're you.

1334
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 1: Know, usually the prosecutors and the defense team and the

1335
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: attorneys wouldn't get the information un till after the whole

1336
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: investigation has been completed by the detectives or the sex

1337
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: crimes unit, which is this woman who allowed her prosecutor

1338
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:18,839
Speaker 1: to be in on Oh oh I see.

1339
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 2: Okay, got it? That makes sense.

1340
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So the boys are brought to trial. Sixteen

1341
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 1: year old Corey Wise is being tried as an adult

1342
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 1: for some reason because he's sixteen, And the newspapers are going,

1343
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 1: that's the case of a white woman being attacked by

1344
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: a rowdy group of black teens, stirring up the racism

1345
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 1: in the city, which kind of was this underlying thing

1346
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 1: that no one was talking about. But finally they had

1347
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 1: something to point at and.

1348
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, like this is it was the equal opposite of

1349
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:50,719
Speaker 2: the Bernie Getz situation. Yeah, it was. It was basically, yeah,

1350
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 2: that's kind of retribution, right, the idea of retribution. Yeah,

1351
01:12:55,439 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 2: and piling it all very conveniently on yeah, these five boys. Yeah.

1352
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 1: So, for example, the night of the Central Park rape,

1353
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 1: a woman in Bedford sty was raped and thrown off

1354
01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 1: a building, never fucking talked about in the media, and

1355
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,919
Speaker 1: that same week that this happened, twenty eight rapes were reported,

1356
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 1: but those were not being reported by the media. But

1357
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:22,719
Speaker 1: the black community even turned against the boys as well

1358
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 1: because some of them because they were having their own

1359
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 1: run ins with the black youths who had saulted and

1360
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 1: intimidated those people in their own neighborhood, and they felt

1361
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: that they were giving the whole community a reputation as

1362
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: you know, drug dealers and felons. So even the you know,

1363
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 1: the black community was fucking pissed about them. Oh and

1364
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 1: good old Trump puts out a full page ad in

1365
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 1: four newspapers calling for the death penalty to be a

1366
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: reinstated in New York even though the death penalty wasn't

1367
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 1: even on the table for this.

1368
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 2: He just and at the time he was he was

1369
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:54,680
Speaker 2: a slum.

1370
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 1: Lord, a very wealthy one, a very wealthy slum lord,

1371
01:13:57,960 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: a very wealthy businessman.

1372
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, who made money off of basically being a slowmarn Yeah.

1373
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 2: Oh and casinos, yes, okay.

1374
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 1: And then the City Sun newspaper and the Amsterdam New

1375
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: Amsterdam News used a victim's name in their paper, despite

1376
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: the media policy of not publicly identifying victims of sex crimes.

1377
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they gave out her name even though I'm

1378
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: supposed to.

1379
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:24,679
Speaker 1: And they said it's because, well, if the other people

1380
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 1: are willing to put out the boys' names, then she

1381
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 1: should have her name out too, which is like, so

1382
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: fucked up.

1383
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 2: Well that doesn't know. That's not a one to one

1384
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 2: at all, it's not. But it sounds like this was

1385
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 2: the wild West essentially. Yeah, this sounds like the worst

1386
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 2: eight nine, maybe eighties. It's just just like, yeah, wild West.

1387
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 1: So, the analysis was done on the DNA that was

1388
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 1: collected at the crime scene, and it didn't match a

1389
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,160
Speaker 1: single one of the suspects. They also didn't have any hair,

1390
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 1: any any evidence, and the crime scene looked like it

1391
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: didn't look like five people could have been attacking someone.

1392
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 1: It looked like a single person was attacking someone. There

1393
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 1: was like this small little path that was walked up

1394
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 1: and taken uh Tricia away from the main road.

1395
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:13,799
Speaker 2: But there wasn't you know, beat up dirt or anything

1396
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 2: like that. So it's like she was down in a

1397
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 2: ravine and there was like one track down to her

1398
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,320
Speaker 2: body and back up. Yes, not like five.

1399
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: People walk down, right, And when the boys got in there,

1400
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 1: they didn't have any mud or dirt on them. And

1401
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 1: the other thing is if she were fighting back, which

1402
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 1: they said the cops said that she put up a

1403
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: hell of a fight, they would all have scratches and crazy.

1404
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 2: Things on there.

1405
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 1: One kid had one of them had a scratch on

1406
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 1: his eye. But that's it, right, So the DNA collected

1407
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 1: and so when the DNA was collected and didn't match,

1408
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 1: the prosecutors just said that they must have been there

1409
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 1: must have been a sixth one of them.

1410
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 2: Then that the DNA matches, and.

1411
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 1: Still brought them to trial with a case that was

1412
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 1: almost entirely based on a confession circumstantial.

1413
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:02,480
Speaker 2: So okay.

1414
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 1: So the four boys, Kevin, Yusuf, Anton, and Raymond are

1415
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 1: convicted of rape, assault, robbery, and riot and the attacks

1416
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,719
Speaker 1: they were fifteen years old and fourteen, so they got

1417
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 1: maximum sentence for juveniles, which is five to ten. But

1418
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 1: Corey Wise is sixteen and Trieden was adult, so he

1419
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 1: gets five to fifteen in fucking Rikers, which is like

1420
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: a hardcore prison, and going in as a rapist, especially

1421
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 1: against a white woman where there's a lot of arian

1422
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 1: people in the prison, right, is ugly?

1423
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 2: All right?

1424
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,439
Speaker 1: Well, the summer that the attack on Trisha occurred, there's

1425
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 1: a serial rapist terrorizing the Upper east Side called the

1426
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:45,879
Speaker 1: east Side Rapists.

1427
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 2: Okay, I just got a weird chill. Did you remember

1428
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,680
Speaker 2: I have no I've never heard of this before. Yeah,

1429
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:53,800
Speaker 2: so you know that story, but you don't. I know

1430
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 2: that story very well. All I know was that the

1431
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:01,640
Speaker 2: mentality at the time was they caught some This was

1432
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 2: the mentality. They caught some of them, and they're going

1433
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:08,719
Speaker 2: to jail like good and everyone Yeah, everyone rejoiced. Everyone

1434
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:15,480
Speaker 2: was absolutely and I feel like in general unquestionably swallowing

1435
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:19,479
Speaker 2: the story that was being fed everyone.

1436
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 1: I mean, they wanted it to be solved, and it

1437
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 1: was a perfect backdrop and proof of what was going

1438
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 1: on and what they'd been saying was going on, and

1439
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 1: what they were mad about and something to say. This

1440
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 1: is why I feel this way about you know, this

1441
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 1: is why my racism is justified.

1442
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 2: Exactly right, And and to say as if this is

1443
01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 2: the only these are the only people that are breaking

1444
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 2: the law in New York City. Yeah, that this and

1445
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 2: that to me is the That's the thing I feel

1446
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 2: like all the way up to and obviously passed until

1447
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 2: very recently, but like around the oj trial, where it's

1448
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 2: this idea of you don't just get to say who

1449
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 2: is who is innocent and who's guilty, but like you

1450
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:04,679
Speaker 2: don't just get to pull people through the legal system

1451
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 2: and just be like they're the problem is solved, because

1452
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 2: if you have if it's a setup, which many of

1453
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:13,479
Speaker 2: them have been, you still have somebody that's guilty out

1454
01:18:13,479 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 2: there doing it totally and who knows what color that

1455
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:21,719
Speaker 2: person is. But you've now not solved the problem, ruined

1456
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 2: people's lives, supported racial stereotypes, not told an accurate story.

1457
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 1: So but this is how the story ended. In two

1458
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:33,439
Speaker 1: thousand and two. Okay, so the summer that the attack happened,

1459
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 1: a serial rapist named the East Side Rapist is sucking

1460
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 1: terrorizing everyone. August fifth, nineteen eighty nine, seventeen year old

1461
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:46,640
Speaker 1: Mattias Reis is caught after raping another victim. He's the

1462
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: east Side rapist, east up, the east Side rapist. He

1463
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:55,400
Speaker 1: so the woman who was raped noted to detectives that

1464
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:58,560
Speaker 1: she saw fresh stitches on his chin, and it was

1465
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 1: right after the attack on Trish. So he ultimately confessed

1466
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 1: to one murder, five rapes, two attempted rapes, and the

1467
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 1: rape and murder. The murder was Lord Lords Gonzales, and

1468
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 1: she was pregnant and her three children heard through the bedroom.

1469
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:25,280
Speaker 1: So August fifth, you've got this guy getting caught for rape,

1470
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:29,599
Speaker 1: and it's saying that he murdered people. And then on April,

1471
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 1: and in April, a couple of months before that, this

1472
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:36,080
Speaker 1: rape of Tricia happened.

1473
01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 2: This attack, let's see.

1474
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,680
Speaker 1: So after being in prison, he's in prison for more

1475
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 1: than a decade for the murder. In two thousand and two,

1476
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 1: he finds God. Rayes finds God, comes forward and says

1477
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,640
Speaker 1: that he is the attacker of Tricia.

1478
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 2: He did it.

1479
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: So he then goes on to detail how he followed

1480
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: raped brutally her with and then details that the five

1481
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 1: that the Central Park five never got right. They never

1482
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 1: even had similar stories of what happened.

1483
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:08,719
Speaker 2: They were all different.

1484
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,519
Speaker 1: And he just tells exactly how it really went from

1485
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 1: where he threw the socks to where he threw the

1486
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 1: keys and why because he was mad that she wouldn't

1487
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 1: give him her address so he could break into her house,

1488
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 1: so he threw the keys. And they had always wondered

1489
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:24,639
Speaker 1: what the deal with the keys were, exactly what she

1490
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 1: was wearing, that she had a walkman that was stolen,

1491
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,760
Speaker 1: and they never they weren't sure if there was a

1492
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 1: walkman involved. All her friends said she always ran with

1493
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 1: a walkman and he said it too, Yeah, which it

1494
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:39,960
Speaker 1: wasn't even at the scene. So the fact that thing

1495
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 1: he knew about it meant, you know, he was there.

1496
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 1: He definitely fucking did it. Yeah, And the DNA is

1497
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 1: then tested.

1498
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 2: And uh, it's his DMA oh man.

1499
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's see the detective who who gave him,

1500
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,760
Speaker 1: who gave the statement, who he took the statement said,

1501
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,919
Speaker 1: Mitrays is one of the top five lunatics he's interviewed

1502
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:07,360
Speaker 1: in more than twenty years investigating homicides. The five boys

1503
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 1: had already been released from prison. They're adults now, but

1504
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 1: they were struggling because they were now sex offenders on

1505
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 1: the Sex Offender Registry and Raymond Santana was still in

1506
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:21,600
Speaker 1: jail because he had a drug charge. He took to

1507
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:23,840
Speaker 1: selling drugs because he couldn't get a job with a

1508
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 1: sex offender on as a sex offender. Yeah, but his

1509
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:32,400
Speaker 1: sentencing because of that drug charge, because of his prior conviction,

1510
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 1: was longer, So he was still in prison based on

1511
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:36,799
Speaker 1: his prior conviction.

1512
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:38,200
Speaker 2: So he's released.

1513
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: And then in two thousand and two, Manhattan District Attorney

1514
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:46,280
Speaker 1: Robert Morgenthau threw out the convictions in the Central Park

1515
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: jogger case.

1516
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:48,320
Speaker 2: The five are dexonerated.

1517
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, New York City paid them forty one

1518
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,960
Speaker 1: million dollars a settlement. Really, yeah, are you crying? Yeah,

1519
01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 1: forty one million. That's like, we fucked up so hard.

1520
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1521
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: So the prosecutors, the woman who is the prosecutor, the

1522
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:13,759
Speaker 1: sex offender unit head, refuses to admit that they were wrong.

1523
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 1: She's now a teacher at some big college and they're

1524
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 1: like starting up a petition to get her kicked out

1525
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 1: because she uses this case as one of the highlights

1526
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:27,200
Speaker 1: of her career. Oh no, yeah, so she can't say

1527
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 1: it's true. She says, maybe there were six of them.

1528
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 1: Still sticks to that story.

1529
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 2: And doesn't acknowledge the hard evidence of the lunatic no rapists, no,

1530
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:41,640
Speaker 2: who admitted he did it? Why would you admit you

1531
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 2: did something and did it alone? And then no, and

1532
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,760
Speaker 2: then actually have the hard evidence and know the details.

1533
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:50,480
Speaker 2: I mean, that's very difficult to deny.

1534
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: Right, Yes. And then so the police detectives a lot

1535
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 1: of them won't admit that they were wrong, and of

1536
01:22:58,479 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 1: course Trump refuses to admit.

1537
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 2: He says, look at the confession.

1538
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 1: So he's still stuck on this confession, which, as we

1539
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 1: know now, so many confessions are coerced easily, especially out

1540
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 1: of children. Totally as for the victim, So, Tricia had

1541
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 1: five months of rehabilitation, she returned, and then she returned

1542
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 1: to running in Central Park. In ninety five she ran

1543
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,400
Speaker 1: the New York City Marathon, and in two thousand and three,

1544
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 1: so she had been anonymous up until then. In in two

1545
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:39,120
Speaker 1: thousand and three she comes out and with a published

1546
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:42,719
Speaker 1: publishes a memoir called I Am the Central Park Jogger.

1547
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:46,160
Speaker 2: I remember that? Yeah? Yeah, I don't know.

1548
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: I want to know what she thinks about, well, you know,

1549
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 1: thinking that these five boys were her attackers for so long,

1550
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 1: and then having to switch your brain completely. It's just

1551
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 1: so scary and it feels so much for her just

1552
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 1: based on that and now then she began a career

1553
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,679
Speaker 1: as an inspirational speaker. She works with victims of sexual

1554
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,839
Speaker 1: assault and brain injury in the Mount Sini Sexual Assault

1555
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 1: and Violence Intervention Group. So that's the Central Park five

1556
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:14,799
Speaker 1: and the East Side rapist.

1557
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 2: Wow, huge, I know that's such a huge story. Did

1558
01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:25,360
Speaker 2: I tackle that? Okay? Did I give it justice? Yeah? Okay, yeah, okay.

1559
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:29,640
Speaker 2: I mean this is I feel like, especially in this

1560
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 2: day and age, it's so difficult to talk. The first

1561
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 2: thing I thought of while we were talking about this

1562
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,439
Speaker 2: is I remember one time, a long time ago, we

1563
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 2: were talking about something and the way we intimated it,

1564
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:43,680
Speaker 2: it made it sound like what we were saying is

1565
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 2: all people of color live in the ghetto, right, And

1566
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 2: we got a lot of people who wanted to talk

1567
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:50,720
Speaker 2: to us about that, where that is in no way

1568
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:53,040
Speaker 2: what me meant, but it was like the wording of

1569
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:55,680
Speaker 2: how it sounded, And so I would just point that

1570
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 2: out that, you know, like, this isn't the assumption that

1571
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:01,840
Speaker 2: because you of color you live in the worst part

1572
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,639
Speaker 2: of the bronx, And it doesn't mean that because you're

1573
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:08,160
Speaker 2: of color, you go wilding, like none of what we're

1574
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 2: talking about is to say every single person was living

1575
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,240
Speaker 2: only this one way in New York in that time.

1576
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 2: I'm sure there was tons of you know, upwardly mobile

1577
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:21,759
Speaker 2: black people and people Hispanic people and people of color

1578
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 2: that lived on the Upper West Side. So it's not

1579
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 2: it's not that, but I think that the lines were

1580
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 2: absolutely drawn because back then the white like it was basically,

1581
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:37,040
Speaker 2: white men ran most media, and white men were the

1582
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 2: cops usually for the majority, I would say, And so

1583
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:43,920
Speaker 2: that was the story that we were always given, and

1584
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 2: that's that was the story people were reacting to, and

1585
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 2: that's what we're talking about.

1586
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:51,440
Speaker 1: Well, it's just so hard because for this with this podcast,

1587
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:53,479
Speaker 1: like you know, I don't want to do the thing

1588
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:56,120
Speaker 1: that so many people talk about is that like blonde

1589
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:59,479
Speaker 1: white women, that's all the stories we cover, which I don't.

1590
01:25:59,280 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 2: Think we do.

1591
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:02,960
Speaker 1: But you know, I want to give I want to

1592
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 1: tell them the stories because I want to represent as

1593
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:09,840
Speaker 1: many people as we can and as many victims as

1594
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 1: we can, which I totally think these boys are victims

1595
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:16,680
Speaker 1: in this story. But you know, it's hard as a

1596
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:20,240
Speaker 1: white woman. I try to empathize, but I'll never I know,

1597
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:23,680
Speaker 1: I'll never understand completely what's going on. So, you know,

1598
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,280
Speaker 1: like the my Terce Richardson case, I just really wanted

1599
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 1: to to Yeah, I just want to make sure that

1600
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:31,600
Speaker 1: we're covering them, but I know it's never going to be.

1601
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 2: Perfect, definitely, So it's a bit of a risk to

1602
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 2: even talk about them because everything is very loaded these days,

1603
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 2: and I think people it makes people feel better if

1604
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 2: you make if you misspeak about something. It makes people

1605
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,519
Speaker 2: feel better to tell you how wrong you are. It

1606
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 2: makes it makes it feel like that's that's making a difference,

1607
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,799
Speaker 2: which it definitely is. Yeah, I mean in some ways,

1608
01:26:56,200 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 2: but I guess our hesitation is when you put stuff

1609
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 2: like that out there, it's easy to say something incorrectly,

1610
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:07,200
Speaker 2: or sound insensitive, or make it sound like you're making

1611
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 2: a generalization. Right.

1612
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. I tried very hard

1613
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:16,720
Speaker 1: not to, but please email us. We're always open to

1614
01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:20,639
Speaker 1: you know, hear your story or have your corrections, and.

1615
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,320
Speaker 2: They know that, I know, I mean Jesus, that's the

1616
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:25,160
Speaker 2: one thing we do.

1617
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, But I think what's better than not

1618
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 1: covering it because it's too loaded, is just not talking

1619
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: about it at all, and so I think that's important.

1620
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 2: As well to talk about it.

1621
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, especially for people who have a podcast, you know,

1622
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 1: who are talking it specifically about murder and podcasts. In

1623
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:47,439
Speaker 1: a podcast, it's like, we can't just cover the easy

1624
01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 1: ones well.

1625
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 2: And also the ones that have been covered, because you're

1626
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 2: exactly right, that's the thing of it's the blonde cheerleader.

1627
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 2: When the blonde cheerleader goes missing, everybody freaks out because

1628
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:01,840
Speaker 2: the society that's built up around us is basically said, well,

1629
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 2: that's what makes the money, that's what sells the newspapers.

1630
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:09,240
Speaker 2: There's a lot of like very convenient rationale that goes

1631
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:12,439
Speaker 2: into why we talk about some murders and crimes and

1632
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:14,920
Speaker 2: why we don't talk about others. I think that example

1633
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:16,639
Speaker 2: of like a woman who was raped and then thrown

1634
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 2: off a building on the very same night and no

1635
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 2: one has heard of that stuff, that's I think that's

1636
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 2: very kind of symbolic. And I think it's that thing

1637
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:28,479
Speaker 2: of like it's just good, it's good to start trying

1638
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:30,800
Speaker 2: to open your eyes. I think it's a hard thing

1639
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:33,880
Speaker 2: for some people to do. There's some people that will

1640
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 2: never be able to do it. But if you can try,

1641
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 2: I think it's important. I think it is going to help.

1642
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 2: Our society needs this kind of help very badly, definitely,

1643
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:46,800
Speaker 2: to come together and to be like, I get it,

1644
01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 2: nobody's nobody's you know, horror is worse than another person's horror.

1645
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:56,760
Speaker 1: And then for you and I to to kind of

1646
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 1: to kind of open the conversation up because we're two

1647
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 1: white women, and then it's not you know that we're

1648
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 1: trying to understand what's going on in.

1649
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 2: Other people's worlds. And I'll take that out. It's sad. No,

1650
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 2: I had it and then it was gone, Okay, we're back.

1651
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 2: Are there any updates on this case, Georgia? Yes there are.

1652
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:29,719
Speaker 1: So here's where the exonerated five are today. Yusuf Salaam

1653
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 1: became a board member of the Innocence Project and has

1654
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:38,000
Speaker 1: advocated for criminal justice reform, particularly for juveniles. In twenty sixteen,

1655
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:41,200
Speaker 1: he won a Lifetime Achievement Award from Barack Obama. He

1656
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 1: won the Democratic nomination and seat for New York City

1657
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:47,640
Speaker 1: Council's ninth district in twenty twenty three.

1658
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:49,160
Speaker 2: Incredible Yeah.

1659
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 1: Raymond Santana started a clothing company called Parc Madison NYC

1660
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,839
Speaker 1: and donates a portion of its proceeds to the Innocence Project.

1661
01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 2: I didn't know that Park Madison, NYC. People should know

1662
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 2: so they can buy that stuff just to support him absolutely.

1663
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 1: Corey Wise remained in New York, where he works with

1664
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 1: the Innocence Project to advocate for the rights of the

1665
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:13,959
Speaker 1: wrongly convicted, as well as criminal justice reform. Antron McCrae

1666
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:17,360
Speaker 1: is married with six children and lives in Georgia. Kevin

1667
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 1: Richardson served as an advocate with Santana and Salam to

1668
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:24,040
Speaker 1: reform New York State's criminal justice practice's, advocating methods to

1669
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:29,479
Speaker 1: prevent false confessions and eyewitness misidentifications. In twenty nineteen, Netflix

1670
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:31,840
Speaker 1: released a four part mini series on the Case Which

1671
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,799
Speaker 1: Is So Incredible, called When They See Us. The series

1672
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:38,680
Speaker 1: was highly praised and won a Peabody Award in recognition

1673
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 1: of its powerful storytelling around racial justice and state violence,

1674
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:46,240
Speaker 1: and in December twenty twenty two, a Central Park entrance

1675
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 1: was renamed Gate of the Exonerated to honor the Five

1676
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:53,559
Speaker 1: Men Wow. On October twenty first, twenty twenty four, the

1677
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:57,479
Speaker 1: Exonerated five sued Trump for defamation in federal court in

1678
01:30:57,479 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 1: Philadelphia after Trump once again claimed they were guilty during

1679
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:05,479
Speaker 1: a twenty twenty four presidential debate, which is, oh wow, facts,

1680
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 1: let's not just yea, let's not even pay attention to them.

1681
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:10,800
Speaker 1: Trump tried to have the case thrown out, but Judge

1682
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:14,000
Speaker 1: Wendy Beetlestone rejected Trump's motion to dismiss the case, and

1683
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 1: the case is still going through the courts.

1684
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:19,760
Speaker 2: All right, So let's head back now to wrap this

1685
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 2: show up.

1686
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so it's something positive. Yeah, that's how

1687
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 1: we end this so everyone doesn't get bummed. Do you

1688
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 1: want to go first?

1689
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 2: No, you go first. Okay.

1690
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:35,160
Speaker 1: The good thing that happened to me, you know, I said,

1691
01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:37,599
Speaker 1: I went last week to a new psychiatrist. The fucking

1692
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:41,759
Speaker 1: change in medications already working. Oh really, I am. It

1693
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:43,760
Speaker 1: just makes me so hopeful when I wake up in

1694
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:47,000
Speaker 1: the morning, I'm not exhausted all day, you know, and

1695
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm sleeping at night without any pills.

1696
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 2: It's just like makes me really hopeful.

1697
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 1: Oh good, And really, you know, I had two days

1698
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:58,439
Speaker 1: of not exhaustion and I was just so happy about it.

1699
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:03,160
Speaker 2: That's great. Yeah, what's yours? My friend? I have a friend,

1700
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 2: my friend Kevin Farzod has a band called Shore Shore

1701
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 2: and they have no music coming out. They're truly one

1702
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:13,160
Speaker 2: of my favorite bands. It's like the kind of music

1703
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 2: you can put on, like I just feel so stressed

1704
01:32:16,200 --> 01:32:19,760
Speaker 2: out lately, and I think a lot of people have been.

1705
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 2: It's the kind of music that's like super catchy and great,

1706
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 2: but it's not like invasive. I can't explain it. It's

1707
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:29,840
Speaker 2: just very good. I totally recommend it. I think they're

1708
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:33,400
Speaker 2: coming out with a new album soon, but I will

1709
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:36,479
Speaker 2: be retweeting their music. I'm just a big believer in

1710
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:39,639
Speaker 2: shore Shore the band, and so I think everyone should

1711
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 2: listen to them.

1712
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: That's a good one. Yeah, music is such an important

1713
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:48,200
Speaker 1: part of you know, the human existence, human experience in

1714
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 1: life and happiness.

1715
01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:56,919
Speaker 2: Okay, we are back. So this episode was originally titled

1716
01:32:56,920 --> 01:32:57,920
Speaker 2: My Own Sinkhole.

1717
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:00,639
Speaker 1: If we were naming it today, maybe we would call it,

1718
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 1: Oh my God, I love this one so much.

1719
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:07,120
Speaker 2: Too many Fish, which never sounded wrong to me, is

1720
01:33:07,160 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 2: still to this day doesn't sound wrong to me. I'm like,

1721
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:12,080
Speaker 2: as I read plenty of Fish, I'm like, oh, got it.

1722
01:33:12,120 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 2: That makes I think that is so like, that is

1723
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:19,760
Speaker 2: such a what's it called slip Fridian slip. Yeah, too

1724
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:24,360
Speaker 2: many fish. I guess that's just something about you can't

1725
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:26,840
Speaker 2: get involved with those fish. There's too many other and

1726
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:31,400
Speaker 2: there aren't plenty. There's no fucking way there's plenty. No, no, no, okay.

1727
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 1: The other one could be called really Aunt Mary.

1728
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 2: Where we talk about tattoos, we all make our whole

1729
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:42,160
Speaker 2: family get tattoos. That's also some toes is one of

1730
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:44,880
Speaker 2: the weirder. Yeah, like, that's the tattoo I want everyone

1731
01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:48,040
Speaker 2: to get. Also one point over mine, which is George's

1732
01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:55,479
Speaker 2: amazing joke about Reku baby. Forgot about that? Great. Well,

1733
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 2: that's the episode. That's this week's episode of rewind.

1734
01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 1: Let's let Elvis say goodbye from twenty seventeen. Thank you

1735
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 1: guys for listening.

1736
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:08,639
Speaker 2: Thank you all right, stay suxy and don't get murdered.

1737
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:19,160
Speaker 1: Bye Elvis, Elvis, LOI wife Muki, Elvis. One cookie come here,

1738
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 1: he's coming, Elvis. One cookie, come here.

1739
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 2: Therey comes. Gosh, the video of that one cookie. Wow,