Speaker 1: Hi, Brian. Hi, Katie. So if a picture is worth
Speaker 1: a thousand words, what do you think one point nine
Speaker 1: million pictures are worth? Brian? I was never very good
Speaker 1: at math, Katie, A lot a lot of words. I
Speaker 1: find that hard to believe, because you're good at everything.
Speaker 1: Well enough. That's how many pictures today's guest took in
Speaker 1: his eight years as the chief official White House photographer
Speaker 1: for President Barack Obama. That is right, Katie. Pete Susa
Speaker 1: is responsible for some of the most amazing and iconic
Speaker 1: photos from President Obama's time in the White House, Like
Speaker 1: one of my favorites, the one from the Oval office
Speaker 1: of President Obama bending over so a little African American
Speaker 1: boy could touch his hair to see if it's like
Speaker 1: his own, or or how about that picture which we
Speaker 1: discuss from the Situation room when the National Security team
Speaker 1: watched the raid that killed us on a bit laden
Speaker 1: and never forget those intense expressions on everyone's face for
Speaker 1: the fact that Hillary Clinton was the only woman seated
Speaker 1: in a room full of men. But I digress. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we talked with Pete Susa about his experience working for
Speaker 1: President Reagan. He was in that White House too, about
Speaker 1: how he first got to know Barack Obama when he
Speaker 1: was a junior senator from Illinois, and about his continuing
Speaker 1: relationship with the president, which has lasted to this day.
Speaker 1: And if you want to see what we're talking about
Speaker 1: instead of just listening to us talk about photographs. I
Speaker 1: am wondering about this medium to talk to a photographer,
Speaker 1: but hopefully we're painting some pictures for you and our descriptions.
Speaker 1: Pete is out this week with a book of photographs
Speaker 1: called Obama An Intimate Portrait. I'm looking at Pete's beautiful book,
Speaker 1: which has some of the beautiful photos that you took
Speaker 1: during your eight years of covering President Obama. Uh, you
Speaker 1: must have gotten to know him very very well, Pete,
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you could write an excellent tell all,
Speaker 1: but you're not going to tell us about what you
Speaker 1: observed and learned from being around Barack Obama all that
Speaker 1: time in a whole array of situations. Oh, where to begin, Katie. Um.
Speaker 1: I met him on his first day in the Senate,
Speaker 1: so in January, I think it's January four of five,
Speaker 1: and still know him today, just saw him last week,
Speaker 1: and the character of the guy has not changed one bit.
Speaker 1: Even though he had this amazing job for eight years,
Speaker 1: grueling so many experiences, the core of him is still
Speaker 1: the same. How would you describe that core decent? He's
Speaker 1: a decent man, trying truly every day. I think he
Speaker 1: went to work and he was thinking about what's the
Speaker 1: best thing for the country in any decision, some of
Speaker 1: which were not politically popular. He also thought about that
Speaker 1: we live in this age of social media and everything's
Speaker 1: today and react right away, and he was not afraid
Speaker 1: to think the long term. Right, What's what's the right
Speaker 1: thing to do in the long term, Pete, What would
Speaker 1: you say are President Obama's biggest strengths and weaknesses? And
Speaker 1: and along those lines, what do you think the public
Speaker 1: doesn't get still about President Obama? The I started arguing
Speaker 1: with a not arguing. I started responding to a question
Speaker 1: the other day from a I won't mention person's name,
Speaker 1: but they were like, tell me about the two Barack Obamas.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, there's not two Barack Obamas. What do
Speaker 1: you talk about? And I think the point being that
Speaker 1: he said that President Obama was aloof and he was
Speaker 1: not aloof. People tend to try to caricaturize our presidents
Speaker 1: based on incomplete information, and I think that's what's happened
Speaker 1: in this case. He was he was a guy who
Speaker 1: had a core group of friends, He enjoyed spending time
Speaker 1: with his family, and he he didn't like the Washington
Speaker 1: you know, party circuit, and so I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people thought, because he didn't socialize the way you're
Speaker 1: supposed to socialize in Washington, that people came up with
Speaker 1: this idea that he was aloof. So it's just like,
Speaker 1: let's knock that down right now. Having said that he
Speaker 1: was a cool customer, I mean, let's face it, I
Speaker 1: think he was very h I would say he had
Speaker 1: a cool temperament, wouldn't you say? No, No, absolutely, very
Speaker 1: even tempered. You know, it's interesting sing the Some people
Speaker 1: have asked me to compare him with President Reagan, who
Speaker 1: I also spent some time as a White House photographer
Speaker 1: for President Reagan. That's sort of like the one characteristic
Speaker 1: that they had that was similar, where Reagan two was
Speaker 1: very even, even tempered. But President Obama maybe even more so.
Speaker 1: I think that had to do with his upbringing and
Speaker 1: being from Hawaii. Um, your listeners know that he actually
Speaker 1: wasn't born in Kenya, right, hopefully. Okay, I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, because we have a lot of faith in
Speaker 1: our listeners, so I believe they do. But Pete, you
Speaker 1: still want to answer the question, what what were his
Speaker 1: biggest weaknesses and biggest strengths? Weaknesses at all? I mean weaknesses.
Speaker 1: It's like it's hard, It's it's hard to say. Okay,
Speaker 1: he wasn't that good of a dancer. How's that he
Speaker 1: thought he was? But he really wasn't. You know. He's
Speaker 1: a good singer though, I gotta say he carried a
Speaker 1: tune pretty well. He was so good when he sang
Speaker 1: al Green. What other songs did he used to sing? Um?
Speaker 1: Lean on Me? You know, that was a big one.
Speaker 1: I think little Bill Withers. Yeah, what else? Um? You know,
Speaker 1: earth Wind and Fire really September wonder you know? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And what do you think the public still doesn't get
Speaker 1: about Barack Obama? Oh? I think they. I think they
Speaker 1: get Barack Obama. I really do. I think they get him.
Speaker 1: He was two. I'll tell you two things about him
Speaker 1: that maybe well, people may know about him, but they
Speaker 1: don't know this much about him. One very disciplined guy.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a guy who just in terms
Speaker 1: of like exercise and diet, more discipline than any other
Speaker 1: person I've ever met, didn't He used to eat like
Speaker 1: six almonds on his desk. Yeah, that was just somebody
Speaker 1: I think told that to a reporter almost as a joke.
Speaker 1: They were trying to make the point that he didn't
Speaker 1: eat like you know, so they this number of almonds
Speaker 1: every day. I don't know that that was true. Can
Speaker 1: we like curse on this? Yeah? Okay, that was bullshit,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm kidding. Okay, I think he was.
Speaker 1: I think he was. Probably people were probably goofing on
Speaker 1: him for being so disciplined, right, And that is one
Speaker 1: of his key characteristics, wasn't it well? But it carried
Speaker 1: over to his work. And so every night, uh, sometime
Speaker 1: after dinner, between like seven thirty and nine thirty, depending
Speaker 1: how organized the staff was, he would get his briefing
Speaker 1: book for the next day. It was a stick binder
Speaker 1: memos for every meeting that he was going to have
Speaker 1: background you know, a schedule list of people that were
Speaker 1: coming to any event and their background memos for national
Speaker 1: security meetings, things like that. And he was disciplined so
Speaker 1: much that I can account maybe one or two or
Speaker 1: three times in eight years where he'd be in a
Speaker 1: meeting and he wouldn't say I read the memos. So
Speaker 1: let's just get to the crux of the issue, meaning
Speaker 1: he always did his homework. He would always read his
Speaker 1: ten letters um. The correspondent staff would choose ten letters
Speaker 1: that spoke to the number of letters he was getting.
Speaker 1: Some of them were not complimentary, and but every day
Speaker 1: he would read those ten letters at night too. So
Speaker 1: it's very discipline in his work as well as exercise diet.
Speaker 1: He did smoke a few SIGs every now and then.
Speaker 1: Didney Pete he quit smoking in I forget exactly what
Speaker 1: it was. It was either oh nine or early ten,
Speaker 1: and has never had a cigarettes since. Really, he didn't
Speaker 1: sneak cigarettes every now and then? Did he choot nick come? Yes,
Speaker 1: he popped nickerette the rest of his administration. Yes, that's okay.
Speaker 1: Tell me about sort of like despite the fact that
Speaker 1: President of mom was was super cool and disciplined and
Speaker 1: even tempered, did you see him get really mad or
Speaker 1: really upset at all? He would get set, you know.
Speaker 1: X A. Rod used to talk about um. His analogy was,
Speaker 1: we've got the best running back of all time, and
Speaker 1: what we continue to do is give him the ball
Speaker 1: on every play, meaning that he was sometimes overscheduled, and
Speaker 1: sometimes he would not like that and get upset when um,
Speaker 1: he was overscheduled, So he'd get ticked. And did he
Speaker 1: have flashes of temper and situations like that, you know occasionally,
Speaker 1: but it was sort of like one of those things
Speaker 1: where you know he could, uh he got mad at me?
Speaker 1: A couple of times he did, yeah, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: was more fied. Uh and like the next day, it
Speaker 1: was as if nothing had happened. Why did you get
Speaker 1: mad at you? P? It was usually a competitive situation.
Speaker 1: What do you mean, like we're playing cards on Air
Speaker 1: Force one, So he'd get mad at you because you'd
Speaker 1: beat him in cards, not not maybe the way I
Speaker 1: you know, occasionally played a hand or something like that.
Speaker 1: And what about getting upset? Did you ever see President
Speaker 1: Obama cry? Well, he cried at Newtown. He cried recalling
Speaker 1: the events at Newtown publicly a couple of times. Did
Speaker 1: you ever see him cry privately? I mean a Newtown
Speaker 1: I mean I think, uh, and and greeting the families
Speaker 1: backstage before that event. It was horrific, you know, that
Speaker 1: was a really difficult time. I think one of the
Speaker 1: most extraordinary things I witnessed President Obama during his presidency
Speaker 1: was that speech in Charleston and he um at some
Speaker 1: point decided to break into amazing grace. What a moment
Speaker 1: that was, and that was completely extemporaneous. We talked to
Speaker 1: Valerie Jarrett about that. That's an interesting day because that
Speaker 1: was such a wrening day emotionally when we went down
Speaker 1: to Charleston for Reverend Pickney I believe his name was
Speaker 1: his funeral Um. That's why we had gone to Charleston.
Speaker 1: This was the church shooting and if you remember, earlier
Speaker 1: that day the Supreme Court upheld same sex marriage, and
Speaker 1: so we came back that night to d C. It
Speaker 1: was a Friday night, and someone on staff had come
Speaker 1: up with the idea to light the White House and
Speaker 1: rainbow colors at night. So we went from this just
Speaker 1: awful emotional day in Charleston and came back to the
Speaker 1: White House just before dark, and then they started to
Speaker 1: light up the White House and it was just an
Speaker 1: extraordinary day of emotions, good and bad. It was like
Speaker 1: one of those days that you served never forget. We're
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break, but don't go away. Everybody
Speaker 1: keep those earbuds firmly implanted, because we'll be back soon
Speaker 1: with more from Peze Susa. And now back to our
Speaker 1: conversation with Pete Susa. Pete, We're gonna return to your
Speaker 1: experiences with President Obama because there's a lot more we
Speaker 1: want to talk about. But first let's go back and
Speaker 1: talk about you. You grew up in Massachusetts. You trained
Speaker 1: to be a journalist. Why a photographer rather than a reporter.
Speaker 1: I went to Boston University and I actually wanted to
Speaker 1: become a sports writer, so I went to their communications school.
Speaker 1: Um I I thought I would be interested in photography.
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure, so I took a photo class photo
Speaker 1: one my junior year. I had never really taken pictures before,
Speaker 1: and I think that the first time that I was
Speaker 1: in the dark room, UM, developing a print and in
Speaker 1: the tray and there's a developer and you're kind of
Speaker 1: like shaking the tray. You have these red safe lights on,
Speaker 1: so you see this image start to appear, and it
Speaker 1: was to me, it was like magic. And I think
Speaker 1: like that day, I was like, Okay, this is what
Speaker 1: I want to do. You worked at the Chicago Tribune
Speaker 1: and National Geographic and and then you became aim an
Speaker 1: official photographer for President Reagan. How did you get that job?
Speaker 1: I went to grad school at Kansas State University, went
Speaker 1: to work for a couple of newspapers in Kansas, and
Speaker 1: at one point I had interviewed for a job at
Speaker 1: the Kansas City Star, and there was a director of
Speaker 1: photography by the name of Carol Greenawalt who had interviewed me.
Speaker 1: But she didn't she didn't hire me. She she gave
Speaker 1: the job to somebody with more experience. Um, and unbeknownst
Speaker 1: to me, she kind of continued to follow my career.
Speaker 1: She then became the White House photo editor, working under
Speaker 1: Michael Evans, who was Reagan's chief photographer. And so at
Speaker 1: some point in nineteen three they had an opening for
Speaker 1: someone to work under Michael, and so Carol suggested me,
Speaker 1: and that's how I That's how I got to the
Speaker 1: White House the first time around. Where do you stand
Speaker 1: politically and was it ever hard peat for you to
Speaker 1: work for someone with whom you disagreed politically or did
Speaker 1: you just separate yourself from that. I separated myself from
Speaker 1: it to a certain extent. There were certainly things that Um,
Speaker 1: President Reagan. You know, some of his policies I didn't
Speaker 1: I didn't agree with, but at the same time, I
Speaker 1: respected him as a person and I could see that
Speaker 1: he was trying to do what he thought was right.
Speaker 1: Did you ever say, hey, Mr President, I like the
Speaker 1: word with you. I'd like to I'd like to discuss
Speaker 1: you breaking up the air traffic controllers union and what
Speaker 1: impact that might have on the working man. Katie, I'm
Speaker 1: smarter than that. Give me some credit. How would you
Speaker 1: compare President Reagan to President Obama? I know you said
Speaker 1: they both have similar temperaments or had similar temperaments when
Speaker 1: they were in the White House, any other ways of comparison.
Speaker 1: That was almost like another lifetime ago for me, and
Speaker 1: I've had some people ask me that question. Still having
Speaker 1: a difficult time, um, making those comparisons because I'm so
Speaker 1: in the moment with President Obama. I mean, I spent
Speaker 1: eight years with him, the last eight years and then
Speaker 1: the last year working on this book, so it's hard
Speaker 1: to go back to that time. What did you do
Speaker 1: between President Reagan and President Obama? So that's when I
Speaker 1: freelanced for nine years for National Geographic but also with
Speaker 1: other magazines, some commercial work, and then went to work
Speaker 1: for the Chicago Tribune for nine years and their DC
Speaker 1: bureau as their national photographer Pete. After nine eleven, you
Speaker 1: were among the first journalists to cover the fall of
Speaker 1: Kabbal Afghanistan, having crossed I read the Hindu Kush Mountains
Speaker 1: on horseback in three ft of snow to get your pictures.
Speaker 1: What what was that experience like? That was I'm I'm
Speaker 1: glad I'm still sitting here right now. That was those
Speaker 1: Those those probably one of the more difficult things I've
Speaker 1: done physically. You know, the Hindu Kush Mountains two feet snow,
Speaker 1: and as majestic as it was, it was as soon
Speaker 1: as the sun went down it got so cold and
Speaker 1: we thought we were going to freeze to death because
Speaker 1: we really weren't dressed for a weather like that. And
Speaker 1: we came across this Northern Alliance hut. So these are
Speaker 1: the guys that were fighting the Taliban within inside Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: and they had this little hut that we came across
Speaker 1: and with a little wood burning stove, and we spent
Speaker 1: the night in there, and I think we would have
Speaker 1: frozen to death if we had not come across this, uh,
Speaker 1: this little hut, and I remember like there's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, eighteen or twenty of us, and there's probably
Speaker 1: not an inch of space, um that was not covered
Speaker 1: by a body. So then the next morning we were
Speaker 1: able to get out of the hinder kush and make
Speaker 1: our way closer to Cobble, and we actually thought we
Speaker 1: might have to be there the entire winner, because everybody
Speaker 1: was saying the fighting season as they called it, was
Speaker 1: coming to a close and low and behold in the
Speaker 1: In the next four days is when the Northern Alliance,
Speaker 1: backed by American fighter jets B fifty two bombs, made
Speaker 1: their final push and into Cobble, and Cobble fell. So
Speaker 1: it was our timing was quite fortunate. Were you ever
Speaker 1: in it? A lot of danger? Grave danger um? I
Speaker 1: mean compared to some foreign car respondence, maybe not, But
Speaker 1: I do remember walking with the Northern Alliance down this
Speaker 1: one dirt road and hearing sniper bullets whizzing by. And
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell if they were five ft above my
Speaker 1: head at our fifty ft above. But when you hear
Speaker 1: a bullet whistling by, that's a little unnerving. And we
Speaker 1: had a couple we got close to some rocket propelled
Speaker 1: grenades that were coming in UH, and I learned a
Speaker 1: valuable lesson never stand by the tank. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was near the Northern Alliance tank and that's what the
Speaker 1: Taliban was trying to take out. So I kind of
Speaker 1: learned very quickly stay away from tanks. Good, good practical advice.
Speaker 1: Fir Us All. So, so you were in Washington, as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, as a photographer for the Chicago Tribune, and
Speaker 1: the new senator from Illinois was this guy named Barack Obama.
Speaker 1: Why do you think you two hit it off the
Speaker 1: way that you did because your relationship, I think quickly
Speaker 1: went beyond just you know, a photographer and a new
Speaker 1: member of Congress. He kind of was forced to get
Speaker 1: along with me in the sense that I had. So.
Speaker 1: Jeff Zeleny, who now works for CNN but was then
Speaker 1: a correspondent in the Washington Bureau it had come up
Speaker 1: with this idea of let's let's do sort of like
Speaker 1: a documentary print print wise on his first year in
Speaker 1: the Senate, and the Obama communication staff was really trying
Speaker 1: to low profile him that first year in the Senate
Speaker 1: because there had been a lot of hype after his
Speaker 1: two thousand four speech, and so they're really trying to
Speaker 1: like stay under the radar. But because we were the
Speaker 1: local paper, his hometown paper, they acceded to given us access,
Speaker 1: especially me, where they were letting me go behind the
Speaker 1: scenes covers meetings. Jeff and I actually did a congressional
Speaker 1: delegation trip with Obama and Luger, a senator Luger to Russia, Ukraine,
Speaker 1: Azerbaijan to look at this man told nuclear weapons. And
Speaker 1: it was very unusual for them to take journalists along
Speaker 1: on a congressional delegation plane like that, So just by
Speaker 1: close proximity and you know, small talk here and there.
Speaker 1: And I think he appreciated the way I worked, which
Speaker 1: I call low footprint. He got to know me a
Speaker 1: little bit. I think he liked my pictures, and I
Speaker 1: think he liked my sometimes sarcastic sense of humor. When
Speaker 1: you were asked to go back and be the White
Speaker 1: House photographer, was there a part of you, Pete that said, yuck,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be stuck working at the White
Speaker 1: House seven when I could be covering more interesting things
Speaker 1: outside the building. I recognized the historic aspect of his presidency,
Speaker 1: and one of the things that I learned in my
Speaker 1: coverage of him as senator was he was a great
Speaker 1: photographic subject in that the presence of the camera didn't
Speaker 1: affect what he did. He wasn't self conscious. He wasn't
Speaker 1: self conscious at all, which was extremely important and it's
Speaker 1: very rare, especially in a politician. So was President Reagan
Speaker 1: self conscious? He was an actor. He was an actor,
Speaker 1: you know, probably a little more so. Yeah, did he
Speaker 1: pose for the camera a little bit because that is
Speaker 1: what he did for a living at Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: if you go back to the eighties, this is that
Speaker 1: this is at a time when magazines kind of ruled
Speaker 1: the photographic world, right, and they would schedule like fifteen
Speaker 1: minute photo shoots with President Reagan. You know, one week
Speaker 1: it was for Time, two weeks later was for Newsweek,
Speaker 1: And so he was kind of forced to um to
Speaker 1: do those kinds of shoots and contrast it with President Obama.
Speaker 1: Although he had no problem with allowing me tagging along
Speaker 1: with him, or if there was a magazine photographer that
Speaker 1: was going to spend the day with him and they
Speaker 1: would just shadow me um to get pictures. He had
Speaker 1: no problem with that, But when it came to posing
Speaker 1: for photos. Magazine covers things like that President Obama just
Speaker 1: didn't that was not his thing. He didn't like doing
Speaker 1: that at all, So you probably got a lot more natural,
Speaker 1: spontaneous jo with him as a result. There were a
Speaker 1: lot of personalities in that White House when you covered it,
Speaker 1: Pete and I wanted to ask about Joe Biden and
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. What was the president's relationship like with each
Speaker 1: of them as you viewed their interactions in real time?
Speaker 1: He was a bro with Joe Biden romance. They had
Speaker 1: a bromance. I mean I think that, um, what an
Speaker 1: excellent choice he was for vice president. I don't think
Speaker 1: they knew each other that well coming in, but over
Speaker 1: time they formed this unique bond. It was a brother show.
Speaker 1: And you know, Joe Biden was the older brother, and
Speaker 1: I think President Obama respected his opinion on every issue.
Speaker 1: I don't think he always agreed with him, but certainly
Speaker 1: respected and wanted to hear what Joe thought all the time.
Speaker 1: What about Hillary? With Hillary, history is going to show
Speaker 1: that what a courageous decision it was for him to
Speaker 1: hire her as his secretary of State. I mean, they
Speaker 1: had this brutal campaign, right and as she's written, and
Speaker 1: as he's written, it was I think at first, I
Speaker 1: guess she didn't want to do it, she didn't think
Speaker 1: this would be possible. But what a good decision that was.
Speaker 1: I would say it was very magnanimous. Yes, yeah, And
Speaker 1: the President had just read I think Doris Karns Goodwin's
Speaker 1: book Team of Rivals and was partly inspired by that.
Speaker 1: Both Biden and Clinton had run against Obama, of course,
Speaker 1: and oh eight, um, maybe the most iconic you took.
Speaker 1: Pete featured Obama, Clinton, Biden and others, And it was
Speaker 1: taken at four oh six pm on May one, in
Speaker 1: the situation room when the National security team was tracking
Speaker 1: the operation against Ossaba bin Laden. What was it like
Speaker 1: to be in that room at that moment? Well, i'll
Speaker 1: take you back to um to that day and everyone
Speaker 1: jamming into that little conference room which is across the
Speaker 1: hall from the big conference room within the situation room,
Speaker 1: where the communications link had been set up in this
Speaker 1: this little room, and the President decided he wanted to
Speaker 1: monitor this, and they didn't think they could um switch
Speaker 1: the link to the big conference room without losing the signals.
Speaker 1: So that's why everybody piled in. And if you look
Speaker 1: at that picture, or you see the president is not
Speaker 1: seated at the head of the table because there was
Speaker 1: a brigadier general who was on a laptop communicating with
Speaker 1: Admiral mccraven, and as he stood up to give his
Speaker 1: seat to the president, the President just said no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you stay there, and he pulled up a chair right
Speaker 1: next to him, this folding black chair, I think, which
Speaker 1: is now in the National Archives. So everybody was focused
Speaker 1: for forty minutes on what was taking place in Pakistan.
Speaker 1: And if you look at all those faces and you
Speaker 1: realize nobody's talking, they're just observing. You have the most
Speaker 1: powerful people in the government in that room and they're
Speaker 1: they're helpless. They're powerless to do anything about what's taken place.
Speaker 1: They've made a decision already in the weeks and days before,
Speaker 1: and now all they can do is hope that these
Speaker 1: guys that are carrying out this mission are successful, because
Speaker 1: this could have gone really bad. And as a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, it started out really bad when one of
Speaker 1: the helicopters crashed coming into the compound, so things could
Speaker 1: have gone south, and I think that's what accounts for
Speaker 1: all the tension and anxiety you see in every one
Speaker 1: of those faces understandably, So why do you think they
Speaker 1: released that photo fairly quickly after that day? So the
Speaker 1: following day, this was on a Sunday night, I believe,
Speaker 1: when the President made the announcement, And on Monday, I
Speaker 1: came into the office Ben Rhodes, who's a deputy and
Speaker 1: assal security advisor, his offices across the hall from me.
Speaker 1: So when he came in, just popped into his office
Speaker 1: and I was like, Ben, should we think about editing
Speaker 1: some of these photos from yesterday? And He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. So I went through. I shot a
Speaker 1: thousand pictures that day, thousand two to be exact, and
Speaker 1: went back through all the pictures and the one that
Speaker 1: people refer to as the situation room photo was one
Speaker 1: of them. But there were like several meetings during the day.
Speaker 1: I've got pictures of him calling President Bush, President Clinton.
Speaker 1: So I've got to serve the whole day and we
Speaker 1: ended up choosing I think like nine photos including that one,
Speaker 1: to release two to the world. You were in so
Speaker 1: many sensitive situations, so many times, you know, to quote
Speaker 1: Hamilton's in the room where it happened. Um, how did
Speaker 1: the president and his team learn to trust you so
Speaker 1: completely that no matter what they said or did, that
Speaker 1: you would keep it in confidence. Did you have to
Speaker 1: sign an n D A. I didn't sign an NDA,
Speaker 1: but I think it was it was understood I was
Speaker 1: never going to leak anything. Plus, you know, most of
Speaker 1: the actual real top secret stuff is in paper, right,
Speaker 1: is in memos. Yes, they talk about it during meetings,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't privy to paperwork. And when you're a
Speaker 1: photographer in those situations, you're worrying about clicking the shutter
Speaker 1: at just the right moment, your composition, framing, trying to
Speaker 1: capture the mood and emotion. You're paying attention to the
Speaker 1: general conversation, so you're you can accurately capture that mood
Speaker 1: and emotion. But I couldn't relay any like well, but
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I mean I was not there to take notes.
Speaker 1: What kind of camera did you use? Pete? So you're
Speaker 1: like one of those, aren't you? Just like want to
Speaker 1: know the I am one of those? Because so I'll
Speaker 1: first say this, like the camera you use doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It's like the person behind the camera, right, Okay, but
Speaker 1: the photographers and are listening audience, Yes, So I used
Speaker 1: the Canon five D Mark two and then upgraded to
Speaker 1: the three before I left. And the reason I chose
Speaker 1: that camera coming into the White House was it was
Speaker 1: quieter than the Nikon. The Nikon was just too loud,
Speaker 1: and I thought the most important aspect, because all the
Speaker 1: cameras were good by then, the quieter camera was what
Speaker 1: was really important to not disturb what was going on.
Speaker 1: You don't want to have this loud clang going off
Speaker 1: every five seconds or something. You could You sometimes used
Speaker 1: your smartphone too, though, Pete, right, I did. I started
Speaker 1: mostly during the second term. I would use an iPhone
Speaker 1: occasionally too, usually like shoot little snippets away from the action.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at your table here, and if this was
Speaker 1: at the White House, I'd be like zooming in on
Speaker 1: some of these cool faces that people have drawn on
Speaker 1: the table, right, things like that. So just sort of
Speaker 1: more fun. Let's talk about Election Night two thousand sixteen,
Speaker 1: something that we're actually marking the anniversary of what was
Speaker 1: Election Night two thousand sixteen, Like for you, Pete oh Man,
Speaker 1: so don't hold that it was um it was sort
Speaker 1: of living in a surreal world. So I had I
Speaker 1: had talked to the President earlier in the day, and
Speaker 1: he had said, well, I'm going to call Hillary and
Speaker 1: and Trump, uh, probably be pretty late eleven twelve o'clock.
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna go home
Speaker 1: and have dinner with my wife and then I'll just
Speaker 1: wait to hear, you know, see how it's going, and
Speaker 1: then come back in and come up to the residents
Speaker 1: just to you know, document that call um. And then
Speaker 1: watched the results at home with my wife, and you know,
Speaker 1: disbelief because I had believed everything that I was reading
Speaker 1: and hearing, you know, like the kind of things Katie
Speaker 1: was telling me and other people that Hillary is gonna win.
Speaker 1: And I could see that this this was gonna be
Speaker 1: a long, a a long night and be it wasn't
Speaker 1: gonna go so good for the Democrats. And I actually
Speaker 1: went to bed when I got word that I can't
Speaker 1: remember if the President sent a message to somebody who
Speaker 1: then forwarded it to me, and it was basically I'm
Speaker 1: not going to call anybody tonight, and I just couldn't
Speaker 1: watch TV any longer. So I went to bed, and
Speaker 1: I remember waking up around six or six thirty in
Speaker 1: the morning, and I had like a million text messages,
Speaker 1: and so I didn't kind of really need to look
Speaker 1: at the A P story and find out what had happened.
Speaker 1: And in fact, Pete, we now know that the night
Speaker 1: before the election, I don't know, maybe you witnessed this,
Speaker 1: the President said to Hillary after that rally at which
Speaker 1: they both appeared in Philadelphia, you got this. I'm so
Speaker 1: proud of you. So he clearly expected that she would win.
Speaker 1: And we also know that on election night, I guess
Speaker 1: you weren't there for that moment, the President called Hillary's
Speaker 1: team to encourage her to concede because he wanted the
Speaker 1: peaceful transfer to happen and as orderly and smooth away
Speaker 1: as possible. I was not there. That must have been
Speaker 1: like three o'clock in the morning or something. Fast forward
Speaker 1: to President Trump came to visit President Obama, and shall
Speaker 1: we say it was a bit awkward. You were there,
Speaker 1: There were a lot of photographers there, in fact, because
Speaker 1: it was a photo op. Uh, you watched this. What
Speaker 1: were you feeling? What was he feeling? What was the
Speaker 1: mood of the room. Was it as sort of uncomfortable
Speaker 1: as it appeared. I think President Obama was very gracious.
Speaker 1: I might add, didn't you think from the video. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you this because he said this, Um, he
Speaker 1: remembered very much how President Bush treated him during the transition,
Speaker 1: and despite the fact that the election didn't go the
Speaker 1: way he wanted. Um, the American people had spoken, and
Speaker 1: his duty was to give President elect Trump the same
Speaker 1: respect that President Bush gave him. One of the most
Speaker 1: memorable photos, Pete of yours, of many memorable photos, was
Speaker 1: the day after the election when it looked like members
Speaker 1: of the White House staff were going to either throw
Speaker 1: up or as if they were attending their mother's funeral.
Speaker 1: So talk about that photo. So that this is the
Speaker 1: day after the election. The President comes in to the
Speaker 1: office from the residents and he says to Ferreal, go
Speaker 1: over Sherry his personally, why don't you get Josh down here.
Speaker 1: That's the way he said it, because he wanted to
Speaker 1: uh relay to Josh Um, Josh press secretary, how he
Speaker 1: should describe the President's reaction during his press briefing. So
Speaker 1: Ferreal called Josh just down the hall and gut word
Speaker 1: that Josh was in with his team. And so the
Speaker 1: President said, well, just tell Josh to bring his team down.
Speaker 1: And what neither one of them knew was wasn't just
Speaker 1: Josh and his three deputy press secretaries. They were like
Speaker 1: sixty people in Josh's office, researchers, speechwriters, national security people,
Speaker 1: all the regional press people. And so when the Oval
Speaker 1: Office door opened and people started walking into the Oval
Speaker 1: Office and it wasn't just four people, it was like
Speaker 1: fifty people, the President had to kind of change what
Speaker 1: he was going to say because it was no longer
Speaker 1: about hey, Josh, because how I think you should say
Speaker 1: what the president thinks of what happened last night? So
Speaker 1: instead he kind of had to be the adult in
Speaker 1: the room and consoler in chief be well, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say consolar chief, but be you know, the chief of
Speaker 1: pep talk. But it's that picture is in my book,
Speaker 1: and I think the faces that you see will articulate
Speaker 1: how people felt beter than my words. Can I think
Speaker 1: you're right, because um, yes, everyone looks pretty darned devastated.
Speaker 1: Now you've said you're not going to comment on President Trump.
Speaker 1: But that said, you've become famous and amassed quite the
Speaker 1: Instagram following posting old pictures from the Obama White House
Speaker 1: at very opportune times. We should add, let's face it
Speaker 1: really trolling President Trump. I mean that the picture in
Speaker 1: many ways is so much more devastating than any written
Speaker 1: criticism might be. So you've been, you know, a one man,
Speaker 1: you know, attack machine against President Trump by releasing these photos.
Speaker 1: I know, I think that's probably a little hyperbolic. I
Speaker 1: would say it's almost a little slyer than that. I
Speaker 1: think there's a bit of a wink and a nod
Speaker 1: when Pete posts photos which seemed to tell a very
Speaker 1: different story than what maybe going on in the Trump administration.
Speaker 1: Would you say that's a little safer than attack dog. Hi,
Speaker 1: I stand on my characterization. The photos are meant to
Speaker 1: convey that President Obama would not have handled whatever it
Speaker 1: is this way, and in fact was dramatically different, and
Speaker 1: it it cast a sort of a nostalgic glow on
Speaker 1: the previous administration. I like hearing you guys talk about this.
Speaker 1: How would you assess it? Pete? Uh? Well, One thing
Speaker 1: is like when someone first wrote a story about this
Speaker 1: about my Instagram feed, there was something about there was
Speaker 1: a headline about, you know, former White House photographer throwing
Speaker 1: shade at the Trump administration, and I had to look
Speaker 1: up what throwing shade meant because I didn't really I
Speaker 1: didn't know what it meant. Um. It's purposeful that I
Speaker 1: haven't really talked about this UM. Now that I have
Speaker 1: a book out, I kind of enforced it to discuss it. UM.
Speaker 1: But it kind of speaks for itself, and I think
Speaker 1: I'm doing it in a way that actually is pretty respectful.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's hateful. I think it's respectful. I
Speaker 1: think it's playful, and I think it's subtle enough, especially
Speaker 1: when you compare it to what some people, for instance,
Speaker 1: say on Twitter. I think I'm a lot more respectful
Speaker 1: than that. Some people air quotes you're talking about the president.
Speaker 1: Of course I didn't say that. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's hateful that said you know, you said it
Speaker 1: was now he said it was kind of an attack.
Speaker 1: You were kind of machine. I'm not attack machine. Come on,
Speaker 1: when there are reports out that the president is attacking
Speaker 1: his attorney general or criticizing Jeff Sessions, and you immediately
Speaker 1: post a photo of President Obama in a very kind
Speaker 1: of respectful pose with Eric Holder, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that's uh. You know, your your shining a spotlight on
Speaker 1: that news and you're striking a contract. You've been a
Speaker 1: bit of a fact checker as well. For instance, when
Speaker 1: President Trump says that President Obama did not call gold
Speaker 1: Star families, you basically prove him wrong photographically. Well, I
Speaker 1: will say this, President Obama visited Walter Reid twenty four
Speaker 1: times every three months, visited hundreds of wounded soldiers, spent
Speaker 1: hours with them. We'd go to events around the country,
Speaker 1: and he would so often meet privately with gold Star families,
Speaker 1: families who had lost a son or daughter, husband killed
Speaker 1: in action. It was constantly that he did those sorts
Speaker 1: of things. And I was just posting public domain photos
Speaker 1: that had been made public earlier, and um just you know,
Speaker 1: putting them up there for people to see. Well, clearly
Speaker 1: this mischaracterization. You bite your nails like I do a
Speaker 1: little hangnail. I try this mischaracterization definitely stuck in your craw,
Speaker 1: and other others continue to stick in your craw and
Speaker 1: your I mean, listen, let's call us badas bade. I
Speaker 1: think I've said enough already on this. I've made my point,
Speaker 1: and I continue to make my point in a very
Speaker 1: subtle way. And I will, you know, occasionally do that
Speaker 1: as well. I wonder how it feels to watch the
Speaker 1: Trump administration U systematically undo much of President Obama's legacy.
Speaker 1: Because you were there, Pete during many of the signature accomplishments,
Speaker 1: I can imagine, Uh, it's troubling for you. I, um,
Speaker 1: the the arc of the moral universe is long, but
Speaker 1: it bends to horns justice. I have confidence in uh,
Speaker 1: the American people in our country that, um, even if
Speaker 1: sometimes things go the wrong way, that eventually they will
Speaker 1: get right. You still have a relationship with President Obama.
Speaker 1: You see each other, can you just kind of update
Speaker 1: us and tell us how he and Mrs Obama are doing.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him that much as I was at
Speaker 1: the Obama Foundations summit last week, so I spent a
Speaker 1: couple of days with him. Then, UM, I went to
Speaker 1: Texas with him for that benefit concert for hurricane victims.
Speaker 1: That wasn't on assignment. I just called and see if
Speaker 1: you had an ext re set on his plane because
Speaker 1: I thought that would be a historic time. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's not gonna be many times where the five formers
Speaker 1: are going to be together, and I thought it'd be. Um,
Speaker 1: it's something that I should photograph for the historical record,
Speaker 1: so I went along with him on that. I think
Speaker 1: he's doing fine. Um, Michelle is doing fine, he said.
Speaker 1: Everybody's happy. Malie is at college, Sasha's in high school.
Speaker 1: I think life is good. You got to know the
Speaker 1: girls pretty well too, didn't you, and got to watch
Speaker 1: them grow up, because that's a that's a lifetime for
Speaker 1: a kid. It doesn't seem like a very long period
Speaker 1: of time for us old folks. Well, Brian, you're not
Speaker 1: really old, but Pete and I are. Um, but you
Speaker 1: really got to see them grow up and develop into
Speaker 1: you know, young women. There's a there's a picture in
Speaker 1: my book. Um my book is chronological, so you see
Speaker 1: you see the family come in throughout the book. And
Speaker 1: I think one of the last pictures of the girls
Speaker 1: is at the dinner for Prime Minister Trudeau State Dinner
Speaker 1: of Canada, and they were the only time they were
Speaker 1: invited as guests and they have these long gowns on
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh my gosh, they've grown up there
Speaker 1: like sunrise and such. I sing at every podcast a
Speaker 1: little something, Pete, So thank you for giving me some
Speaker 1: a little suggestion there. In closing, Pete, what is President
Speaker 1: Obama's favorite photo. He's he ever described that to you.
Speaker 1: The one I just talked about is actually on his
Speaker 1: bookshelf at his new office. He used to say he
Speaker 1: came across the picture that I have of Spider Man,
Speaker 1: you know, the little kid who's that really cute. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember he when he first saw that picture, he goes, oh,
Speaker 1: that's like my favorite photo. And then I think within
Speaker 1: a week there was a really cool photo with Sasha
Speaker 1: Maliyah and that was it. From then on, it was
Speaker 1: always something that the girls were in were the ones
Speaker 1: that he really treasured. And speaking of the girls, you
Speaker 1: told me as we were preparing for the podcast and
Speaker 1: waiting for Brian who got stuck in traffic in Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you told me what President Obama used to
Speaker 1: tell his daughters, which I thought was really interesting and
Speaker 1: sweet and made me think maybe I should say that
Speaker 1: to my daughters. Well, I thought you were gonna do.
Speaker 1: You're gonna use that with me today because the first
Speaker 1: part of it is be kind and be useful, and
Speaker 1: that's not a bad advice for a parent to give
Speaker 1: her child, um and it's not a bad thought to
Speaker 1: having the back of your head going forward in life.
Speaker 1: Be kind and be useful. Pete Susa, this was really fun.
Speaker 1: And what are you gonna do now? You you spent
Speaker 1: the last year working on this book. UM, I'll probably
Speaker 1: take some time off, but I want to do some
Speaker 1: new photography. What that is I don't know, but UM,
Speaker 1: I'm not done yet. I don't plan to do any
Speaker 1: more political photography. UM. I think once you've been in
Speaker 1: the White House, especially with this president, I think it's
Speaker 1: time to retire from political photography and move on to
Speaker 1: something else you never know, may afford you some new opportunities.
Speaker 1: Michelle is not going to run, so if that's what
Speaker 1: you're hinting at, thank you, Pete, and good luck with
Speaker 1: the book. It's beautiful on Your photographs are so fun
Speaker 1: to look at. You're one of my favorite things on
Speaker 1: my Instagram feeds. So thank you, Thank you so much, Pete.
Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary book. Thank you, Bryan. I'm not an
Speaker 1: attack dog as usual. We'd like to beg our production team.
Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer is our producer. Even though she's not here today,
Speaker 1: she's still our producer. Nora Richie is our production assistant,
Speaker 1: and Jared O'Connell engineers and mixes the show. And Ryan
Speaker 1: in l A helped to engineer today's show, as well
Speaker 1: as special thank you and shout out to Alison Bresnik.
Speaker 1: Not only does she have her finger on the pulse
Speaker 1: of all things social media, but she booked our interview
Speaker 1: with Pete Susa this week. Well played, Allison, well played.
Speaker 1: Mark Phillips is the man behind our theme music, and
Speaker 1: Emily Beana makes the magic happen over at Katie Currik Media.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to find us on social media. I'm Katie
Speaker 1: Couric on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, and I'm Katie dot
Speaker 1: Corric on Snapchat. Brian me Well is tweeting up a
Speaker 1: storm over at Goldsmith b on Twitter. He's very amusing
Speaker 1: and slightly outspoken, ever so slightly And if you have
Speaker 1: feedback or guest ideas, do drop us an email at
Speaker 1: comments at correct podcast dot com. You can also leave
Speaker 1: us a voicemail at nine to nine to to four
Speaker 1: four six three seven until next week. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening, Ladam