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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 1: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 1: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 1: But enough with that, Let's get to the show. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Counterpoints. We have a big show for everyone today.

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Speaker 1: We're going to start with twenty twenty four. Go to

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Speaker 1: a really concerning new bill that a bipartisan coalition of

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Speaker 1: senators is promoting. On TikTok, We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: Stephen Donzinger's case and an interesting Supreme Court decision, an

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Speaker 1: interesting sort of cross ideological Supreme Court decision. We're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about Sam Bankmin Frieda and China, an

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Speaker 1: update in the serial case of on Sai Ed. Ryan

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Speaker 1: and I both have some interesting stories. I'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about Stephanie Rule, Ryan and You'll be talking about Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk and India and Twitter. And then you have a

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Speaker 1: fascinating interview with churn No Ba on the lab leak

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Speaker 1: for everyone to watch. But just as a reminder, by

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Speaker 1: the way, if you are a Spotify subscriber, you can

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Speaker 1: actually get a subscription for Breaking Points Premium in the

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Speaker 1: description of this remember we have video available if you

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Speaker 1: listen to the show if you watch the show on

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Speaker 1: Spotify now. So that's awesome. I love that. I do

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Speaker 1: that all the time with Brogan. I'm a huge fan

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Speaker 1: of Spotify's video function. So if you can get a

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Speaker 1: Breaking Points Premium subscription from the description here, and you

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Speaker 1: can watch full video on Spotify, which is super cool.

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Speaker 1: And as people have notice, we're not rolling out all

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Speaker 1: of today's show on YouTube. It'll still obviously be on

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Speaker 1: the YouTube link. It'll be on the video link for

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Speaker 1: premium subscribers, but for the free loaders on YouTube, don't

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Speaker 1: just be just be a couple of clips and then

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Speaker 1: some some more of them posted kind of throughout the

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Speaker 1: week and over the over the weekend. Right, But that's Spotify. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's Spotify, and there's the and there's also the podcast

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Speaker 1: of course, if you if you need the entire show

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Speaker 1: today for free, yes, and as a premium subscriber myself,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be able to watch Crystal and

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Speaker 1: Sager's beautiful faces on my Spotify, but not while you're scootering.

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Speaker 1: I hope no. I would never do that. I would

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Speaker 1: never do that. I actually I'm not convinced by that.

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Speaker 1: I do isn't a podcast while I'm scootering, But I

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Speaker 1: don't watch that. I do. You know, sometimes, like last night,

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Speaker 1: I wore noise canceling headphones on a bike and I

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Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be doing it. Not a great idea. This

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Speaker 1: is going to come back to bite me. But let's

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Speaker 1: dive right into twenty twenty four Chris Christie, which you

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Speaker 1: just asked me whether or not he was declared. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe he is declared. I don't think he's declared.

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Speaker 1: Chris Christy, are you serious? So anyway, so Chris Christy

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Speaker 1: is in the news. We can put this up here

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Speaker 1: because he's telling Republican voters that you need somebody that's

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Speaker 1: going to be able to go mano amano with Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that he says he's going to be

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Speaker 1: able to be that one even though he was completely

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Speaker 1: humiliated by Jared Kushner. If you have been humiliated and

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Speaker 1: like beaten down by Jared Kushnan. I don't think you

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Speaker 1: get to call yourself like the man of the macho

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Speaker 1: moment if you emasculated by Jared Kushner. So he is

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Speaker 1: referring back to, as everybody can probably guess by now,

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Speaker 1: that time he owned Marco Rubio. Oh he loves it.

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Speaker 1: It's like a high school quarterback. But the entire here's

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Speaker 1: the problem. And everybody has to remember that that viral

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Speaker 1: debate moment where Marco Rubio kept repeating himself saying, don't

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Speaker 1: let's dispel with this notion that whatever something Obama Obama,

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Speaker 1: and he said it like three times. Christy didn't own him.

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Speaker 1: Everybody watching that across the world, it's like, why do

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Speaker 1: you keep saying that? Like it? It was the most

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Speaker 1: obvious debate gaff that I've probably ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 1: And kudos to Chris Christy for saying, oh, you're doing

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Speaker 1: it again. But he was doing it again. If that's all,

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Speaker 1: If that's your whole rationale. He was sort of Trump

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Speaker 1: before Trump in a way, like when he won the

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Speaker 1: New Jersey governorship, he was this brash, macho dude who

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Speaker 1: was telling the liberals, you know, where they needed to

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Speaker 1: go and that that was like refreshing for a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of Republican voters. Then he buzz up with

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama in twenty twelve after Hurricane Sandy, and he's

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Speaker 1: been pretty much persona on Grada since then. And Trump

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Speaker 1: is just you know, he's a twenty ten Chris Christie

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Speaker 1: times like a thousand. You can't it's I think it's

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Speaker 1: even apples and oranges. Yeah. This is the direct quote

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Speaker 1: from Chris Christy, who was at sant Anselm in New

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Speaker 1: Hampshire on Monday. So he's not declared, but he is

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Speaker 1: roaming the New Hampshire Wilderness, which can only mean one thing.

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Speaker 1: He's seriously considering a bid. Quote. You better have somebody

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Speaker 1: on that stage who can do to Trump what I

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Speaker 1: did to Marco, because that's the only thing that's going

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Speaker 1: to defeat Donald Trump. That is a ridiculous opinion. Like

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Speaker 1: first and foremost, like that is if you compare what

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Speaker 1: he did to Marco to any of their attempts to

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Speaker 1: take down Donald Trump, not just in the Republican primary

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Speaker 1: and sixteen, but since then, absolutely nothing works because as

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Speaker 1: soon as you try to mud wrestle with Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: you lose. There is absolutely nobody who can mud wrestle

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Speaker 1: with Donald Trump and beat him. He is the in

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Speaker 1: disputed champion of American political mud wrestling. And if someone

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Speaker 1: can show me another politician that can beat Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: at mud wrestling, I would be shocked. And it's not

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Speaker 1: going to come from you saying that Marco Rubio is

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Speaker 1: repeating himself. It is just not on par with that

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Speaker 1: at all. Right, And Trump had already almost literally emasculated

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Speaker 1: him with the little Marco and then you know they

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Speaker 1: got into the whole contest about who had bigger hands, yes,

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Speaker 1: and Trump just went right there. Yeah, none of these

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Speaker 1: people are up for what Trump's going to bring. That's

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Speaker 1: a good point because Mark Rubio memorably went after the

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Speaker 1: size of Trump's hands in South Carolina because there were

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Speaker 1: all of these reports saying Donald Trump is really really

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Speaker 1: insecure about the size of his hands, because that's innuendo,

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Speaker 1: and is actually very insecure about the size of you

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Speaker 1: can fill in the blank. And Marco Rubio's team really

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Speaker 1: thought that they got him on that one, like they

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Speaker 1: really thought that was the way to go. And you

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Speaker 1: can't mount wrestle with Donald Trump. He basically came out

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Speaker 1: and had a hilarious response that endeared more voters to

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. It completely backfired. It's just impossible. So if

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Speaker 1: Chris Christy, who by the way, is asked by an

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Speaker 1: audience member, when are you going to take down Trump, replies,

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Speaker 1: I have my timetable. If he seriously thinks that he

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Speaker 1: can mud wrestle with Donald Trump and come out on top,

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Speaker 1: he's more delusional than I even realized. So speaking of

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Speaker 1: delusional Ron Santas, so let's I do not support or

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Speaker 1: endorse that transition. So let's play. So. Megan Kelly has

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Speaker 1: apparently been asking Rond de Santis to come on to

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Speaker 1: her show for an interview for quite some time. He

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Speaker 1: hasn't said yes yet. She saw him on Pierce Morgan recently.

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Speaker 1: That got her upset and that led to this clip.

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Speaker 1: Let's play Meagan Kelly here. I will say for the record,

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Speaker 1: we asked DeSantis to come on the show. He has

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Speaker 1: not said yes, and I find that very interesting. You know,

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Speaker 1: I love Piers Morgan, He's a pala mine. Well why

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Speaker 1: would you go sit with the British guy and not

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Speaker 1: come on the show. And I do think there's a

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Speaker 1: reason for it, and I will adventure to say he's afraid.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna put out there he's afraid because he

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Speaker 1: knows the kind of interview that I would give him.

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Speaker 1: He's not going to get a pass, same as Trump

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Speaker 1: never got a pass from me. This is into the machismo,

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Speaker 1: tough guy, who can do you know, who can handle

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Speaker 1: it better? And so how does this work for DeSantis

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Speaker 1: to have, first of all, to have Megan Kelly here?

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Speaker 1: So who is Megan Kelly in the Republican ecosystem right now?

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Speaker 1: Because she's she's kind of transformed her role a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So Megan Kelly is an extremely popular podcaster. I mean

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Speaker 1: you can just call it at this point what it

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Speaker 1: is an extremely popular broadcaster who has pretty wide reach

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Speaker 1: on the right and I think probably in the center

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Speaker 1: as well, voters that rond de Santis will definitely need.

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Speaker 1: I actually was on a jeep tour in a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks ago, and a woman from Florida recognized me

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Speaker 1: from going on Megan Kelly's show. Whenever I go on

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Speaker 1: her show, I hear from people I went to high

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Speaker 1: school with. That's always kind of like my marker of

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Speaker 1: how big the show is, Like if it gets out

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Speaker 1: into kind of your high school friends you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: twenty years or something. It's huge, h It's a huge show.

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Speaker 1: And I do think it's important to the voters that

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Speaker 1: Rond de Santis would need to win, So I anticipate

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Speaker 1: this actually means Rnda Santis is going to be on

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Speaker 1: Megan Kelly's show fairly quickly, and I actually think that's

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Speaker 1: probably what she was doing. And I do think it's true.

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Speaker 1: People definitely, especially on the left, I think, underestimate Megan Kelly.

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Speaker 1: She gives good interviews, She's like very prosecutorial in her

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Speaker 1: interviews of candidates, and I think it's probably makes sense

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Speaker 1: that ronand DeSantis, at this stage, not having formally announced anything,

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Speaker 1: would want to avoid that on his book tour because

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Speaker 1: that's where he's been making all these media appearances with

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Speaker 1: Piers Morgan and everyone else that you wouldn't necessarily want

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Speaker 1: to dive into like a pretty prosecutorial back and forth

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Speaker 1: worth and in a venue that is important to you

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Speaker 1: because of the people that it reaches. So that would

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Speaker 1: be my road on the situation. But I think this

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Speaker 1: probably does get DeSantis on the show. So basic you're

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Speaker 1: saying that she's right, that right, that he that tough

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Speaker 1: questions like the kind that Megan Kelly delivers don't play

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Speaker 1: into the strategy around a book tour, right, the book

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Speaker 1: tour strategy Megan Kelly's is not on it for a reason. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: I think that's true. I mean with Piers Morgan it's tabloidy, right,

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Speaker 1: it's more you know, what do you think about Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump saying this and that and it's not going to

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Speaker 1: be I think probably like you've said this and you

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Speaker 1: did that, like you you used to support privatizing sales security,

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Speaker 1: Like where are you now that kind of thing? Right,

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Speaker 1: here's Morgan's not going to do that. No, he's not

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Speaker 1: going to do that. That's what we would do. So

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Speaker 1: we should put a request out to DeSantis and then

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Speaker 1: if he does, if he's not on here by next week,

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Speaker 1: we can shame him. How's that We should start doing

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Speaker 1: that more often? Once a week we should shame someone

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Speaker 1: into coming on the show and see what happens. We'd

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Speaker 1: love to have to Santis. It would be a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. But on that note, Mike Pence is also

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Speaker 1: making the rounds. He though even though he's making the rounds,

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Speaker 1: I will also say he is wrapped into the January

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Speaker 1: sixth situation. This is news for me. Yesterday, a federal

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Speaker 1: judge has ordered former Vice president Mike Pence to testify

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Speaker 1: before in the federal probe of Donald Trump's bid to

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Speaker 1: subvert the twenty twenty election. According to a person familiar

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Speaker 1: with the ruling, so that's a big hurdle. Mike Pence's

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Speaker 1: team has sort of resisted it, so clearly they see

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Speaker 1: it as a big hurdle. I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that it's well, why does this team against because

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Speaker 1: they they've turned kind of state's evidence in public pretty consistently.

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Speaker 1: They've come after him on every platform that they can find.

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Speaker 1: Is it just the fact that they don't want to

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Speaker 1: be seen collaborating with Democrats and coming after him. I

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Speaker 1: think that's probably it. I think that's when I was

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out, you know, what the sticking point

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Speaker 1: might be. There's I think it's the optics. First of all,

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Speaker 1: it's the optics of being pulled into a grand jury

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Speaker 1: probe not great, and on top of it, yet looks

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Speaker 1: like you can see how it would be framed as

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Speaker 1: like collusion with the force that are out to get

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Now this is a quote from Politico. Legal

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Speaker 1: scholars generally agree that Pence has a legitimate case that

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Speaker 1: his role as President of the Senate may warrant immunity

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Speaker 1: from testimony sought by the executive branch. So the Federal

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Speaker 1: Appeals for Court in Washington is expected to rule imminently

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Speaker 1: on a separate effort that's related to Scott Parry. So

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Speaker 1: it's actually kind of about a power's situational axceparation of

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Speaker 1: powers question and not as clear cut as maybe it seems.

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Speaker 1: On top of that, did you see what John Stewart

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Speaker 1: said about uh, about the Trump and diaverments. This was

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Speaker 1: pretty fun. Yeah, we rolled rolled John Stewart here. Oh,

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Speaker 1: the law should always take into account someone's popularity. I

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Speaker 1: think that's that's I mean, what what's happened to our

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Speaker 1: country for It's as though you can't even commit financial

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Speaker 1: fraud anymore. You can't. You can't inflate the value of

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Speaker 1: your properties when you need a loan and then deflate

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Speaker 1: it with taxes. I mean, the next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: they're going to send you to jail instead of your

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Speaker 1: lawyer and your accountant and your campaign manager and everyone

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Speaker 1: else around you. It's no to the idea that someone

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Speaker 1: may face accountability who's that rich and powerful is outrageous

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Speaker 1: and this country shouldn't stand. But what if what if

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Speaker 1: it turns out to be his get out of jail

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Speaker 1: free pass, it's his bath to people will see him

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Speaker 1: as a martyr. He gets here, Okay. I regreon with

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Speaker 1: that is I don't I'm president again. He could become

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Speaker 1: president anyway. For Reid, we either have the rule of

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Speaker 1: law or we have no rule of law. The rule

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Speaker 1: of law does not take into account if that might

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Speaker 1: make you a martyr to somebody. I'd much rather have

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Speaker 1: the conversation be what is the law? Well, that is

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Speaker 1: the conversation, now what is the law? He also goes

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Speaker 1: on to say, this is on Free Zakaria Sunday show,

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Speaker 1: that all prosecution is political something to that extent. I

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Speaker 1: think Zakaria said that was sort of the issue here,

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Speaker 1: and I think that is fundamentally the issue here. If

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Speaker 1: we're talking about trumping up a campaign finance violation into

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Speaker 1: felony on a legal theory that is not very widely

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Speaker 1: accepted and applying it to a former president, that's not

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Speaker 1: just saying we either have the rule of law or

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Speaker 1: we don't, so that would be my pushback on it.

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Speaker 1: He is. Generally, the point I think is correct that

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Speaker 1: it's laughable to say we shouldn't have accountability for very

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Speaker 1: powerful people, whether they're on the left of the right,

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Speaker 1: or whether it creates sort of discord in the public

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Speaker 1: or not. I mean, that's how you end up getting

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Speaker 1: in this stupid tip for tat. So I agree with

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Speaker 1: that point, but in the specific case of the campaign

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Speaker 1: finance probe, I think it's ridiculous, right, because rule of

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Speaker 1: law doesn't mean you can kind of produce a new

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Speaker 1: law to fit a new rule, and the rule being

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Speaker 1: that you're under a lot of pressure to indict Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump for something. It's the opposite, right, I think Donald Trump, obviously,

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Speaker 1: I think to me, has committed a bunch of different

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Speaker 1: crimes and it shouldn't be that difficult for Democrats to

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Speaker 1: find a serious one, rather than this thing where they're

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Speaker 1: saying that the bookkeeping wasn't done correctly around the way

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Speaker 1: that they made the payment to Michael Cohen to reimburse

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Speaker 1: him for the payoff to Stormy Daniels, and that then

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Speaker 1: campaign finances involved. So then we're gonna rash it up

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Speaker 1: to like a low level fellon. They're related to that,

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Speaker 1: we don't you know, there are these types of deals

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Speaker 1: are done all the time, you know, a settlement, a

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Speaker 1: payoff for silence, an NDA. It's it's not necessarily criminal.

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Speaker 1: And so what they have to do is they have

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Speaker 1: to then find some basically paperwork violation around it, rather

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Speaker 1: than saying, wait a minute, did this guy sell American

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Speaker 1: foreign policy to Saudi Arabia for a two billion dollar check?

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Speaker 1: But let's let's see if he did that. If he

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Speaker 1: did that and we can watch and we can see

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Speaker 1: how the money flows, Uh, then let's let's prosecute him

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Speaker 1: for that. But then that's where we don't actually have

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Speaker 1: rule of law, because once you kind of if you

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Speaker 1: subpoena the bank records of the Arab Emirates leadership, the

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Speaker 1: Saudi Saudi leadership, you're gonna see money flowing in all

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Speaker 1: sorts of places. And if you actually did follow that money,

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Speaker 1: you'd have to corral a lot more people than just Trump.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that's why he's gotten away with

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Speaker 1: his bigger, more brazen crimes, because there are crimes that

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Speaker 1: are obviously like way outside the bounds, but so is

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Speaker 1: most of what Washington does. He's just a little bit

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Speaker 1: more kind of reckless and unapologetic about it. So they

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Speaker 1: have to try to find other things. And the porn

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Speaker 1: star thing is perfect because very few politicians you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get caught up in something like that. That's a very

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Speaker 1: trumpy thing. And so they're like, all right there that

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Speaker 1: that seems like outside of what the normal politician does.

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Speaker 1: So let's prosecute him for that. That way, we can

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Speaker 1: let the rest of this ecosystem just rest in peace.

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Speaker 1: Even the charges done in Georgia I think are more serious.

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Speaker 1: Don't go for those. Find me eleven thousand votes, like

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Speaker 1: that's like, just try that see if like and you know,

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Speaker 1: they are trying to try it. We'll see how the

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Speaker 1: grand jury goes. But I would much rather see a

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Speaker 1: jury hear that evidence and weigh that, like, did he

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Speaker 1: actually try to illegally, you know, flip the election in Georgia? Right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll see how it plays out with Pence DeSantis, potentially

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Speaker 1: Chris Christy. The way they handle this January sixth probit

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Speaker 1: is ongoing and of itself, I think is an interesting question.

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Speaker 1: Let's move on to TikTok Ryan. This is fairly big

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Speaker 1: news that I haven't seen basically any coverage from the

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Speaker 1: corporate media of and I looked, actually, when the Restrict Act,

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Speaker 1: which is being supported, it's sponsored by Mark Warner, has

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Speaker 1: a very bipartisan coalition behind it, eleven Democrats, eleven Republicans.

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Speaker 1: It is aimed at TikTok. It does not say the

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Speaker 1: word TikTok once in the bill, which is always a

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Speaker 1: giant red flag here in Washington. When a bill that

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Speaker 1: is aimed at doing one thing doesn't mention it, that's

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Speaker 1: always a sign that the language is probably wildly overly broad.

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Speaker 1: Some screenshots from the bill started circulating on Twitter, and

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Speaker 1: I think this is where a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: the media, myself included, turned and paid attention to the

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Speaker 1: Restrict Act after Mark Warner was promoting it on Face

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Speaker 1: the Nation Sunday. If you dig into the text of

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Speaker 1: this bill, it is outrageously broad. And I think it

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Speaker 1: was Greg Price on Twitter. So this is the Patriot

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Speaker 1: Act for the Internet. A couple of things. This is

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Speaker 1: Michael Sabolik. He says, there's a reason the White House

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Speaker 1: supports this legislation. They don't want to ban TikTok. The

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Speaker 1: bill gives them a gigantic loophole to avoid doing so.

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Speaker 1: The Warner Thoon restrict Act is not a TikTok bill.

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Speaker 1: If this thing passes, the chances of a TikTok ban

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Speaker 1: or forced divestment grow incredibly small. Why the bill slow

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Speaker 1: walks actions against transactions that are under review right now.

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Speaker 1: So if anything, when we saw that like bipartisan display

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Speaker 1: of animosity towards TikTok, which by the way is like

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Speaker 1: five years overdue in Congress last week, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people who are maybe on the anti establishment side started

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Speaker 1: getting nervous, rightfully, So this is why. And we already

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Speaker 1: have Syphius, which is what they're sort of referring to.

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Speaker 1: So Syphius is a law that says that if there's

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Speaker 1: some type of infrastructure that is critical to the United

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Speaker 1: States that is being taken over by a foreign government,

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Speaker 1: then that can't just be a normal business transaction. It

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Speaker 1: has to get approved by this licifious board. I think

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Speaker 1: one example was, like I think the UAE back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six tried to buy a bunch of ports,

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Speaker 1: And this was right after a couple of years, after

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven, and the country was like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to sell our ports to a foreign government,

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Speaker 1: and whether no offense to UEE, but just in general,

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Speaker 1: we'd like to keep control of that. As what's Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's line, you don't have a country. Yeah, if somebody

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Speaker 1: else controls your ports like that, you can imagine how

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Speaker 1: that can become problematic at some point. Yes, And so

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Speaker 1: that's why there has to be these sifiust reviews. And

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Speaker 1: so if there is a case the government can make

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Speaker 1: that TikTok is encroaching on some type of critical infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: whether social media, the narrative control is basically what this

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Speaker 1: is coming down to, then put it before the safiest

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Speaker 1: review and beat it there like you, in other words,

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Speaker 1: where it is right you already which is where it

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Speaker 1: is and frankly should be, and you already have the

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Speaker 1: laws in the book. So then why why this Resist Act?

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Speaker 1: Why this overly broad piece of legislation that they're pushing forward.

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Speaker 1: And the people who are circulating these screenshots on Twitter

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Speaker 1: might seem paranoid, but if you read the law, they're right,

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Speaker 1: like this it is. It is extremely overbroad. It does

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Speaker 1: it even mentions the Patriot Act. It linked you know,

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Speaker 1: it's using Patriot Act language in the It combines power definitions, right,

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Speaker 1: it combines powers with Patriot Act. It references parts of

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Speaker 1: the Patriot Act that would apply in this case to

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Speaker 1: the entities they're describing. And some of it is just

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Speaker 1: funny jingoistic American imperialism. I think we have this first

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Speaker 1: part up here, where it says where they define foreign

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Speaker 1: adversary means any foreign government or regime determined by the

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Speaker 1: Secretary pursuant to sections three and five to have engaged

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Speaker 1: in a long term pattern serious instances of conduct significantly

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Speaker 1: adverse to the national security of the United States or

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Speaker 1: the security and safety of United States persons. So all

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Speaker 1: the Secretary would have to do is say this a

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Speaker 1: country fits this definition, and then if that country has

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Speaker 1: any controlling, any share at all in the company that

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Speaker 1: it would then be under the kind of unilateral authority

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Speaker 1: of the Secretary. And then they list some just in

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Speaker 1: case you're curious about who they are. These ones are

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Speaker 1: definitely included, China, Cuba, Get out of here, Cuba, are

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Speaker 1: you serious? The Cuban apps come on, Iran, of course,

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Speaker 1: North Korea, Russia, and Venezuela. But they specify Venezuela under

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Speaker 1: the regime of Nicolas Mondoro Moros so Venezuela as long

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Speaker 1: as they get rid of because we don't recognize. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's why they're saying that that that Venezuela doesn't

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Speaker 1: really exist as far as we're concerned. But since it's

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Speaker 1: actually alive, now we're going to put them in this law.

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Speaker 1: And then when I said any amount of stock that

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Speaker 1: they that they own, they define holding as quote an equity, interests,

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Speaker 1: a stock, a security, a share, a partnership interest, an

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Speaker 1: interest in a limited liability company, a membership interest, or

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Speaker 1: any participation right or other equivalent, however, designated end of

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Speaker 1: any character. So basically, you know, if anybody that the

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Speaker 1: Secretary finds to have done anything negative to any US

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Speaker 1: person has any interest in a company, then that company

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Speaker 1: comes under their purfew. It's nuts. Tucker Carlston called attention

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Speaker 1: to what you were saying about foreign adversaries, and he says,

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Speaker 1: what's a foreign adversary? And who gets to decide? The

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Commerce and the Department and the DN I

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Speaker 1: not the Congress, they get to decide what foreign adversaries are.

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Speaker 1: He goes on to point out that the transactions with

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Speaker 1: foreign adversaries covered by the restrict Act would include quote

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Speaker 1: this is from the bill, any acquisition, importation, rants for installation,

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Speaker 1: dealing in, or use of any information in communications technology,

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Speaker 1: product or service, including ongoing activities such as mandated service

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Speaker 1: as data transmission software updates, repairs with the provision of

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Speaker 1: data hosting services. And it gives the government basically the

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Speaker 1: ability to tap into all kinds of your different communications

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Speaker 1: technological communications methods in order to make these determinations valuations

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Speaker 1: as they're referred to in the bill. It's just incredibly broad.

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Speaker 1: No surprise that you have a bipartisan coalition of Mark Orner,

426
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: je On Thun all kinds of establishment Republicans and Democrats

427
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: are ready to have twenty one sponsors is a fairly

428
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: big deal. Josh Hawley has a clean TikTok ban on

429
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: the table, and he has for a while. It is

430
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: just a ban of TikTok. Of course, that's not what

431
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: they want to do when they say they want to

432
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: ban TikTok. They want to expand the surveillance powers of

433
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 1: the federal government. And that is exactly what they put

434
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: in writing here. And when reading these types of bills,

435
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: it's always useful to go to the very end of

436
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: a section because there'll be specific, specific, specifics specific, and

437
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: then the very last one will be like and anything

438
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: else we didn't cover. They have a good example of

439
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: this one here in what is this section section three

440
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: a subsection two here that a company that quote otherwise

441
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: poses an undo or unacceptable risk to the national security

442
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: of the United States or the safety of United States persons.

443
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: So all of these things, but then also anything that

444
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: we say is unacceptable, like literally if it's unacceptable, well,

445
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: what's what's something that's not acceptable? Well, it's something that's unacceptable.

446
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: So why right there in the law my t shirt

447
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: is explaining I don't understand why I'm raising so many questions. So,

448
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: and I think this goes to the broader point that

449
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: the debate has been held publicly around data security and privacy, which,

450
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: as somebody who has covered data security and privacy for

451
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: fifteen years now, it makes a mockery of the way

452
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: that Congress thinks about data security and privacy. They have

453
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: no interest for them. I mean, there is a bipartisan

454
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: coalition that we've talked about on the show before that

455
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: does really good work and trying to push back against

456
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: the national security state when it comes to this. But

457
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: in general, the majority of Congress it does not care

458
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: about privacy, does not care about that type of thing.

459
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: They barely understand it. And so to have them now

460
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: saying that they're so concerned about your data that they're

461
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: going to ban TikTok just doesn't pass the sniff test.

462
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: What it really is about, and I think Crystal's talked

463
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: about this too, is that they don't like the fact

464
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: that a China backed social media company can control the

465
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: narrative inside the United States. I think they should just

466
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: have that debate, because I think you can actually make

467
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: you can make a case like, Okay, you know what,

468
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: maybe that isn't good, And a lot of other countries

469
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: would say, you know what, we don't want if Voice

470
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: of America, for instance, was like as dominant in China

471
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 1: as TikTok is in the United States, unthinkable, China be

472
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: like no, no, no no, no, no, what are you doing.

473
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: In fact, lots of countries did ban Voice of America

474
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: because we're sending in American propaganda and then we would

475
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: try to like figure out ways to like get it

476
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: in anyway like this, the propaganda war between countries has been,

477
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: you know, has been basically part of kind of geopolitics

478
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: going back to the medieval ages, with like ever since

479
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: you had a printing press, you had people slipping propaganda

480
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: in the behind enemy line. So have that argument rather

481
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: than trying to pretend like all of a sudden you

482
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: care about privacy. Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And the

483
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: House Financial Services Committee put out a tweet where they

484
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: said the restrict Act is using TikTok as a smoke

485
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: screen for the largest expansion of executive power since the

486
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: I E E. P A. The US can't beat China

487
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: been becoming more like the Chinese Communist Party, which is

488
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: to say, expanding surveillance powers massively over people. I think

489
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: that's fairly well put, and it signals to me, honestly

490
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: that the restrict Act has been come in short time,

491
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: fairly toxic. I expect you'll see people actually revoke their

492
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: support for the bill. I don't think it'll get much

493
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: more support since it's gotten this level of public attention,

494
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: at least on the right. I have again really not

495
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: seen mainstream so called mainstream outlets cover this at all.

496
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: The bill has been out for a while some conservatives

497
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: were on top of it several weeks ago. But I

498
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: think that even the House Financial Services tweet is from

499
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: several weeks ago but really not getting any coverage in

500
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: the mainstream press that said, it's not going to pick

501
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: up any more Republicans. I'm fairly confident at this point,

502
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: and I would if I were going to make an

503
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: appeal to my fellow lefties, I would say, would you

504
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: want to give this authority to Donald Trump to pressure YouTube?

505
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: Let's say he has a falling out with Elon Musk,

506
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: and Elon Musk is like, you know, juicing the algorithm

507
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: against Trump. Would you want Trump to be able to

508
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: threaten to shut down Twitter because Saudi Arabia has a

509
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: gigantic entry. Do you want Trump to be able to

510
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: threaten YouTube? Or Trump to be able to threaten Facebook

511
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: or Like or any president to have this amount of authority.

512
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: I made those arguments all during the Obama era, over

513
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,239
Speaker 1: the Drone War and over other you know, warnings of

514
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: what a theoretical Republican president who followed Obama might do

515
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: with this executive authority that Obama was aggregating to it himself,

516
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: and it all fell on deaf ears. So I'm not

517
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: sure that this argument is going to work well with

518
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: them either. But of course it turned out that all

519
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: of your warnings were just hyperbolic and wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Trump.

520
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: Trump didn't do anything. It didn't didn't abuse executive thory

521
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: at all. That was fine. Why would he do that?

522
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: That was totally fine, you know. Yeah. And the other

523
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: thing that I just to add really quickly is the

524
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: administrative state or the executive branch, is one of the

525
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: most indirect forms of democracy that we have right now,

526
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: especially the way it's abused, the way the powers that

527
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: rest in the administrative state are often abused. And this

528
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: punts so much power to the Secretary of Commerce that

529
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: the bill is specifically just like creates a new universe

530
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: of powers for the Secretary of Commerce in a way

531
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: that is very hard to hold to account outside of

532
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: a presidential election. You'd have to take this out basically

533
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: on the president of the United States. So another thing

534
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 1: to keep an eye on, ye, And the Secretary Commerce

535
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: is basically just a big donor as the position that

536
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,719
Speaker 1: goes to like the richest person, right yeah, in this administration.

537
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: And the last one, speaking of money and politics, let's

538
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: move on to the Supreme Court case involving or the

539
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: Supreme Court's decision actually not to hear a case involving

540
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: Stephen Donzinger, something that the show has certainly covered over

541
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: the years. Ryan, Basically, you have on Monday, Neil Gorsich

542
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: Brett Cavanaugh dissenting from the Court's decision not to review

543
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: a lower court's ruling involving Donzinger's case, who's sentenced to

544
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: six months in prison for contempt of court. You know

545
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: this case like three years in the end, right, right,

546
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: And you know this case much better than I do.

547
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: But the descent was really interesting. It basically gets over separation,

548
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: It gets into separation of powers questions, which is where

549
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: you see Gorsich and Kavanaugh dissenting and where you see

550
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: interesting decisions from the ostensibly liberal members of the Supreme Court.

551
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: What did you make of this? And we were just

552
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: last segment talking about an administrative state and the rights

553
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: hostility toward it, and I suspect that that's where some

554
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: of this is coming from. So why the liberals wouldn't

555
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: side here and why Gorsich and Kavanaugh fell down the

556
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: way they did. But I think Gorsis and Kavanaugh are

557
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: right on this one. So to recap for people who

558
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: haven't followed this the key thing to understand here. So

559
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: Donziger represented plaintiffs who were suing Chevron and Ecuador Chevron.

560
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: Chevron requested that the case go down to Ecuador and

561
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: be handled there where they thought they had a better

562
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: chance of prevailing. As Neil Gorsich rights in his descent,

563
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: Chevron would live to regret that decision because there's a

564
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: nine plus billion dollar verdict against Chevron that that Donziger won.

565
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: Chevron then comes back to the New York, back to

566
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: the United States and starts fighting Donziger there, saying that

567
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: it was unfair the way that Donziger, uh, you know,

568
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: was able to you know, manipulate, manipulate and bribe the court,

569
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: et cetera, in order to give in order to give

570
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: him this uh get get in order to win this verdict,

571
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: which is just hilarious to hear one of the wealthiest,

572
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: uh and most powerful organizations on the planet saying that

573
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: they got got beaten by you know this these indigenous

574
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: plaintiffs down in Ecuador and just just completely unfair in

575
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: the court hippy lawyer in the court that they asked

576
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: to be sent down to so uh they got they

577
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: get back to the United States. The judge demands to

578
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: demands Donziger turn over all of his electronic equipment in

579
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: order to kind of go in a fishing expedition to

580
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: see if they can prove these Chevron allegations. He says, no,

581
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: that that's a massive violation of attorney clink privilege, et cetera,

582
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: et cetera. The judge holds him in contempt, refers to

583
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice for a criminal prosecution. The Department

584
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: of Justice looks at it and says, no, thank you,

585
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: like we are going to use our prosecutoral discretion and

586
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: we are not going to prosecute this contempt case. Go

587
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: on about your case, leave us out of this. The

588
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: judge then appoints a private prosecutor from a law firm

589
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: that had done business with Chevron, and the private attorney

590
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: then prosecutes this contempt charge. Donziger is prevented by the

591
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: same judge from having injury. Instead, it's the judge who

592
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: is prosecuting him. It's bizarre that finds him guilty and

593
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: then sentences him to prison. And so Donziger has appealed,

594
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: and the appeal is narrow on the question of whether

595
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: or not the judge had the legal or the constitutional

596
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: right to appoint this prosecut And I would encourage people

597
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: to read Coursach is decent, it's short, it's signed by Kavanaugh.

598
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: It's very clear. He makes the point. He says, Look,

599
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: nobody thinks that the executive can appoint my law clerks.

600
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Why I have the quote right here? Go ahead, He says.

601
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: The notion that the Constitution allows one branch to install

602
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: non officer employees and another branch would come as a

603
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: surprise to many. Who really thinks that the president may

604
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: choose law clerks for my colleagues, that we can pick

605
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: White House staff for him, or that either he or

606
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: we are entitled to select aids for the Speaker of

607
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: the House. Why do judges on the left not join

608
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: a dissent like that? If they had, there's three liberals

609
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: left in the court. If they had and they joined

610
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: these two, they could have vacated this conviction. Absolutely so

611
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: why didn't they, my guess, and they didn't. They don't

612
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: have to give a reason when they reject cert things,

613
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: just say we don't want to hear this. My guest

614
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: goes back to the administrative state that they that they

615
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: were worried that if this judge's appointment of this prosecutor

616
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: is ruled invalid, then somehow they're going to peel that

617
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: back and say, okay, well then OSHA is also unconstitutional

618
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: or the e p A is on constitution or something

619
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: like that, which I think is just absurd. Like, first

620
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: of all, the idea that you're you can capitulate away

621
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: and the right is going to stop coming after OSHA

622
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: or the e p A is absurd, like're you're coming

623
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: for it, like it's it's happening. Whether this dirty water

624
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: and dirty air and I want it now unsafe conditions

625
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: in all workplaces, yeah damn it. And but so whether

626
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: whether this particular case went that way, I don't think

627
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: UH is going to affect that broader war at all.

628
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: But also, you know, the the liberal justices are liberal

629
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: when it comes to kind of civil and civil rights

630
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: and cultural issues over the years. But if you look

631
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 1: at cases that the Chamber of Commerce has, you know,

632
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: has weighed in on liberal justice, is often are siding

633
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: with the Chamber of Commerce. So it's not as if,

634
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: in other words, they're not going to stick their neck

635
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: out to buck Chevron. Yeah. Now, I remember when Catanja

636
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: Brown Jackson was up for confirmation. I interviewed Marshall Blackburn

637
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: about some of her plans for it and asked specifically

638
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: if her staff was reviewing Jackson's record on sort of

639
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: corporate powers, and she told me yes. I don't know

640
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: whether or not that was the case, but that's what

641
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: she said. And I think it's kind of an interesting

642
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: question as to whether you see that aligned realignment start

643
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: hitting the Supreme Court because corporate power is on the right.

644
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: One of the big things they challenge when it comes

645
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: to ESG, when it comes to DEI, is in fact

646
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 1: the sort of corporate consolidation of powers and the way

647
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: that they're used. But at the same time, the rights

648
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: entire institutional judicial movement is fairly Chamber of Commerce friendly,

649
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: so it would take a lot of like unwinding. But

650
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: I think it's a good point too, because you see

651
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: it on the left as well, that the sort of

652
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: institutional progressive legal movement is tied up in many ways

653
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: with the political establishment. And we'll just just wrap with

654
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: Gorsich here. He concludes, however much the District Court may

655
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: have thought, mister Donzeger warranted punishment. The prosecution in this case,

656
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: Brokes broke a basic constitutional promise essential to our liberty

657
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: in this country. Judges have no more power to initiate

658
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: a prosecution of those who come before them than prosecutors

659
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: have to sit in judgment of those they charge. In

660
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: the name of the quote United States, two different groups

661
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 1: of prosecutors have asked us to turn a blind eye

662
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: to this promise. Respectfully, I would not with this court's

663
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: failure to interview today only and he goes on to say,

664
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: I hope that this doesn't become precedent because that helps her.

665
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: Would that be like then we're in the kind of

666
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: like the Spanish court where the judges become the prosecutors, which,

667
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: all right, if you want to have that system, have

668
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: that system. But that's not the one that we have. No,

669
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: not at all, not even close. No, speaking of our system,

670
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: let's transition to Sam Bankman Freed. This is from Reuters.

671
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: US prosecutors on Tuesday unveiled a new indictment against SPF,

672
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: accusing the founder of the now bankrupt FTX cryptocurrency exchange

673
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: of paying a forty million dollar bribe to Chinese officials

674
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: so that they would unfreeze his hedge funds accounts. This

675
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: adds to the pressure on the thirty one year old

676
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: former billionaire, who now faces a thirteen count indictment over

677
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: the November collapse of ftx SO, says Reuters. He's expected

678
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: to be arraigned on the new indictment on Thursday before

679
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: a Manhattan judge in federal court. He intends to plead

680
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: not guilty. According to a person familiar with the matter.

681
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: That's cited in the Reuters report, forty billion dollars or

682
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: forty million dollar bribe to Chinese officials to unfreeze hedge

683
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: fund accounts just to drop in the bucket if you're

684
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: overseeing a sports million crypto. Yeah, this monopolynyess? Is that really? That?

685
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: Really a crime? What's funny is that this guy in

686
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: some ways is getting arrested speaking of Trump doing things

687
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 1: that everybody else does. Really for doing what everybody else does.

688
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: So he's getting arrested for campaign contributions and political spending

689
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: in races in the United States and bribing Chinese politicians

690
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: and Chinese government officials. Just another day in the life.

691
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: He's got to be like, wait, these things are illegal.

692
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? Like they have a billion

693
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: dollars of our assets frozen because it's caught up in

694
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: a separate kind of investigation going on in China. And

695
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: the way to get it out is we bribe people

696
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: to get our money back. And now all of a sudden,

697
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: that's a crime. And then when it comes to the

698
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: campaign finance stuff, it's like, wait a minute, we set

699
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: up dark money groups, we funnel money to politicians. Politicians

700
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: sign questionnaires saying that they support all of our issues.

701
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: That's how we do this. Now, they the one law

702
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: they do actually enforce when it comes to campaign finance

703
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: is this straw donor thing. You give two thousand dollars

704
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: to a candidate and I pay you back. Densh just susan,

705
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah like that. That that's the one thing that they

706
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: still seem to care about. And he apparently did that,

707
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: legendly did that. Well, yeah, so this is Prosecutors are

708
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: saying that he ordered this forty million dollar crypto payment

709
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: to a private wallet from Alameda's main trading account, and

710
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: that was to persuade Chinese government authorities to unfree unfreeze

711
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: Alameda accounts with more than one billion dollars of cryptocurrency

712
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: and u this they were frozen as an investigation, as

713
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 1: you mentioned, ran into this unnamed Alameda counter party and

714
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: his dance spegling, and so he also apparently, according to prosecutors,

715
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: they're alleging he authorized a transfer of tens of millions

716
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: of dollars of additional crypto to quote complete the bribe

717
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: back in November of twenty twenty one. He's apparently expected

718
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: if it's a plead not guilty. From reading this report

719
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: in Reuter's about the indictment, it looks a lot like

720
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: the case is solid. Then again, when you're charging people

721
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: with bribery, you really have to have a very clear

722
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: evidence that their intentions were X, and that's you know,

723
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 1: SPF was fairly shameless, so they may well have if

724
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: there's anybody who will give them that evidence it's SPF.

725
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: Then you have a signal chat called wirefraud, don't we all.

726
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: If there's anybody who is going to be texting his

727
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: subordinates to say, please send forty million dollars in bribe

728
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: money to these Chinese officials and using the word bribe,

729
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: it would be Spfah not say he did that, but

730
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 1: if there's anybody who did it, it would be him. Yeah,

731
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: and it seems like again and word otherwise. Don't call

732
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: your signal group wirefraud. Don't call your bribes bribes, call

733
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: them contributions fraud. Advice from Ranger Anthropy. Yeah, set up

734
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: a foundation. It's so easy. Don't be stupid. Let's move

735
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: on to breaking news yesterday. As of yesterday, in the

736
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 1: case of Adnan sa Ed, this is from CNN and Maryland,

737
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: a pellate court on Tuesday reinstated the conviction of say Ed.

738
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: He you remember his murder case was the serial case.

739
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: Of course. It was a two to one ruling from

740
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: the appellate court, who said that the lower court had

741
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: violated the rights of the victim's brother, Young Lee, to

742
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: attend a key hearing. Here's more from CNN. Because the

743
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: circuit court violated mister Lee's right to notice of and

744
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 1: his right to attend the hearing on the state's motion

745
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: of vacate, this court has the power and obligation to

746
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: remedy those violations, as long as we can do so

747
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: without violating mister Sad's right to be free from double jeopardy.

748
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: It's actually from the court's opinion, not from CNN. Fairly

749
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: Big News. Ryan I am not at all in the

750
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: rabbit hole, in the serial rabbit hole. Obviously, this is

751
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: a huge decision do you make of it? This is

752
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: a case, I think where the headlines did a little

753
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: bit of a disservice to to how big of a

754
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: deal it is, because it's kind of a technicality, and

755
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: all of the experts on all sides of this seemed

756
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: to think that there's no reason that it would go

757
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: any differently the next time that this happens. It has

758
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: an interesting kind of victim rights question that we could

759
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: get to yes in a second. But briefly, the facts

760
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: of the case. Her brother was given apparently thirty minutes

761
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: notice to come to this hearing, and it's not that

762
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: he just needed to be there to witness it. He

763
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: was going to participate in it. He was going to

764
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: make his case for why the evidence should not lead

765
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: to an exoneration of non Siad. He couldn't get there

766
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: in purpose, in person. He was at work. He just

767
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: had to quickly zoom in. He didn't have anything prepared,

768
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: and as a foul like the judge should have you know,

769
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: they couldn't. Judge could have delayed a day doesn't mean

770
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: you have to delay it months and months. The judge

771
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: could have given more warning. Now, what what defense attorneys

772
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,959
Speaker 1: are saying is that the problem here is that now

773
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: you're giving kind of victims too much of too much standing,

774
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: and victims families too much standing in the process, which

775
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: can which runs up against the party that has the

776
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: actual standing, which is the people. You know, the people

777
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: versus non side. The people are prosecuting on side on

778
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 1: behalf of the victims. It's not the the victims themselves

779
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: or the victims families themselves are doing it. Because when

780
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: you get into the victims themselves doing it, and then

781
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: then it becomes less rule law and more vigilante oriented.

782
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: And so that's why the kind of defense community was

783
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: really bothered by this ruling because it it could open

784
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: up the floodgates for all sorts of other kind of

785
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: procedural claims made by victims and victims families to to

786
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: redo and reinstate entire convictions. But nobody thinks that the

787
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 1: evidence has changed much. Basically, the prosecution, it has been proven,

788
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: had significant exonerating and evidence at the time of the

789
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: prosecution and did not turn it over to Adon Saad's

790
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: defense attorney. And there's nothing the prosecution can do to

791
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: go back in time and undo that, and so the

792
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: entire thing is toxic and we'll probably get thrown out

793
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: as a result. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. I

794
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: want to ask you about this part from the opinion.

795
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: They say the quarter is the power and obligation and

796
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: remedy those violations as long as we can do so

797
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: without violating mister said's right to be free from double jeopardy, right,

798
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: Because the question is does his conviction getting tossed out

799
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: count as a not guilty verdict? And if it does,

800
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: then double jeopardy kicks in and you can't come back.

801
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: So that clearly they're saying that it's not close enough

802
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: to a not guilty to say that you can't come

803
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: back in. But yeah, you don't want people in a

804
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: situation where they get found not guilty and then you

805
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: go through different procedural hoops and be like, oh, you

806
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: got to come back again, we'll get you this time.

807
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 1: Like that would really undermine one of the bedrock principles

808
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: that protects people's individual liberty. Where can people expect this

809
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: to go from here? I think he'll it'll get tossed again,

810
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: and he's not being brought back in to prison or

811
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: anything like. He's free until the next hearing, and at

812
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: the next hearing it's very likely that it'll be tossed again.

813
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: Such a mess. Yeah, what's your point today? Oh, we're

814
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: talking about one of my favorite people in all of

815
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: cable news, Stephanie Rule. It's been clear for a while

816
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: that Stephanie Rule abused her journalistic platforms to help her

817
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: very very close friend, Kevin Plank and his company Under Armour.

818
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: In addition to Rule providing extensive business advice and flying

819
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: on the company jet, the pair reportedly carried out an

820
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: extra marital affair as well, which The Wall Street Journal

821
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: first brought to the public's attention back in twenty nineteen

822
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: after the Under Armour board discovered quote intimate e between

823
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: Rule and Plank. The rest of the media largely ignored

824
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: Rule's misconduct. By the way, if you google her, you'll

825
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: be hard pressed to find any substantive critiques of the

826
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: journalistic malpractice at hand, not the affair or the ethics

827
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: the journalistic malpractice. Today, Rule hosts The Eleventh Hour on MSNBC.

828
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: She has her own show, and this senior business analyst

829
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: over at NBC News, but her support for Plank and

830
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: under Armour may have been even more problematic. Follow me

831
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: over to Scotland, where the City Council of Aberdeen has

832
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: been fighting under Armour in court, accusing the company of

833
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: artificially boosting its share price. As Fox News reports quote,

834
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: the Scottish town allegedly lost millions from a pension fund

835
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: for local workers as a result, as it was heavily

836
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: invested in under Armour. So where does Rule factor in

837
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: this lawsuit over Scottish pension funds? Well? As Fox notes,

838
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, Morgan Stanley published a report that downgrained.

839
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: It graded under Armour stock to underweight and reduced its

840
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: price target from one hundred and three to sixty two

841
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: dollars per share, which caused the stock to plummet. According

842
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 1: to the filing, the document alleged that Rule then offered

843
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 1: a detailed counterpoint to the Morgan Stanley report on air,

844
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: attacking its underlying data and essentially cheerleading under Armour in

845
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: the process. So this is where things get a bit hairy.

846
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: Aberdeen's lawyers want Bloomberg to turn over rules emails with Plank,

847
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: based on the argument that their personal relationship which seems

848
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: to date back to about twenty fifteen when she was

849
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: working at Bloomberg, is not deserving a First Amendment protections

850
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: that quote an independent journalist source relationship generally warrants. Bloomberg

851
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: disagrees with that, But we actually don't have to settle

852
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: that argument here and now, or even see the emails

853
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: to recognize what Stephanie Rule did was deeply unethical and wrong.

854
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: It also fits a very clear pattern of behavior too,

855
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: when that NBC News would address publicly if it cared

856
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: more about than ideology and ratings. The conservative Washington Free

857
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: Beacon was one of the only outlets to report on

858
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: Rule's coverage of under arm Armor back when the Wall

859
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: Street Journal story broke. Here's what they wrote. Quote. In

860
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 1: June of twenty sixteen, the company released Steph Curry branded

861
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: sneakers that were universally roasted as ugly and boring. Under

862
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,959
Speaker 1: Armour employees were told not to address criticism because Rule

863
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: told the company she would step in and discuss the

864
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: shoes on TV. The Wall Street Journal reported, sure enough,

865
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: archived video of rules appearance on NBC's Today that weekend

866
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: shows she defended the shoes without disclosing her and Plank's

867
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: relationship business friendship or otherwise, or revealing that she coordinated

868
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: with under Armor. Okay, let's just watch the segment, because

869
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: with all of that said, it's pretty hilarious. I don't

870
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: figure the market a bit of a problem. Twitter killed

871
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: these shoes, calling them the Metamucial sixes the sevens. But

872
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: they look an awful lot like a classic Nike or

873
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: a New Balance. That's a mass market she is. It

874
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 1: is a taxi and this is what he was wearing

875
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: during the games. Yes, this is what he goes from

876
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: this to this, so naturally some for sure. I think

877
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: that's why the pushback when you think about a stepf

878
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: curasue of basketball shoe. It's hard. Yes, just in time

879
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: for Father's Day, dad. There you go. It's so good.

880
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: She actually then used a professional Twitter account to post

881
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: twice about those shoes in particular. The Beacon went on

882
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: to note quote Rule would continue to hawk under Armoured

883
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: products and feel good PR campaigns at least a dozen

884
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: times throughout the next two years, a dozen, never just

885
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: closing her reported relationship or role as an advisor. Now,

886
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: none of this is especially surprising from a longtime Deutsche

887
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: Bank managing director and the former quote highest producing credit

888
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: derivative salesperson in the United States, who, by the way,

889
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: was apparently unfaithful to her hedge fund CEO husband during

890
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: her affair with Plank. Rule is basically an archetypical corporate

891
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: democrat in the new mold of liberal suburban mom who

892
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: wants low taxes and smug Sheryl Sandberg feminism. Her show

893
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: is basically just for people with Equinox memberships and g

894
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: wagons full of shin guards and orange slices. But the

895
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 1: lawsuit out of Aberdeen shows why this isn't fun and

896
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: games at all. Chatting about tennis shoes might be a

897
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: cute way to help your secret CEO boyfriend, and it

898
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: may seem like no big deal to read corporate talking

899
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: points about his company stock on air. To wealthy media

900
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: talking heads, these conflicts are mere playthings. They don't think

901
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: twice about Scottish pensioners who may be invested in the stock.

902
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: They sit around, do each other favors and assume it

903
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: it'll all work out just fine. It's pretty much how

904
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: you get Gotham, and it should be a very big

905
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: deal to rules peers in media and to her co

906
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: workers at NBC News. But my best guess is that

907
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: it won't unless they get win. That it's affecting the

908
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: bottom line without mainstream media criticism, that seems quite unlikely.

909
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: All right, Ryan, what is your point today? Well, I'm

910
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 1: looking at India and Elon musk and so so. Two

911
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: months after teaming up with the Indian government to censor

912
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: a BBC documentary on human rights abuses by Prime Minister

913
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: and Andramodi, Twitter is yet again collaborating with the government

914
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: to impose an extraordinarily broad crackdown on speech. I have

915
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: a new story up at the Intercept with my colleague

916
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: Martaza Hussain looking at the latest successful effort by the

917
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: Indian Prime Minister to persuade Twitter to censor its critics.

918
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: So last week, the Indian government imposed an Internet blackout

919
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: across the northern state of Punjab, home to thirty million people,

920
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: as it conducted a manhunt for a local Sikh nationalist preacher.

921
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: The shutdown paralyzed the Internet and text communications in Punjab.

922
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: I asked readers and viewers in India about the crackdown

923
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: and some told me that for much of the time

924
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: the shutdown was targeted at mobile devices. All of this

925
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: is worth reporting on here because it could easily be

926
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 1: a dry run for other countries. Now, while Punjab police

927
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 1: detained hundreds of suspected followers of Amrit Paul Singh, Twitter

928
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: accounts from over one hundred prime politicians, activists and journalists

929
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: in India and abroad have been blocked in India at

930
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: the request of the government. On Monday, the account of

931
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: the BBC news poonjob Punjabi was also blocked, the second

932
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: time in a few months that the Indian government has

933
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: used Twitter to throttle BBC services in its country. The

934
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: Twitter account for jag Meet Singh, who's a leading progressive

935
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 1: seek Canadian politician and a critic of Modi, was also

936
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: not viewable inside India. Under the leadership of owner and

937
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: CEO Elon Musk, Twitter has promised to reduce censorship and

938
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: allow a broader range of voices on the platform. But

939
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: after The Intercept reported on Musk's censorship of the BBC

940
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: documentary in January, as well as Twitter's intervention against high

941
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: profile high profile accounts who shared the documentary, Musk said

942
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: that he had been too busy with his other jobs

943
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: to focus on the issue. First, I've heard Musk wrote

944
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: on January twenty fifth, he said, it is not possible

945
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: for me to fix every aspect of Twitter worldwide overnight

946
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: while still running Tesla and SpaceX, among other things. So

947
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 1: in late February, Singh's followers sacked a Punjab police station

948
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: in an attempt to free allies that were held there.

949
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: The Indian media reported that the attack triggered the government's response.

950
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: In the void left by Twitter blocks and the internet

951
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: shut down across much of the region, Indian news outlets,

952
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: increasingly themselves under the thumb of the ruling government and

953
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: its allies, have filled the airwaves with speculation on Singh's whereabouts.

954
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: On Tuesday, Indian news reports claimed that CCTV footage appeared

955
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: to show Singh walking around Delhi masked and without a turban.

956
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: While Modi's suppression has focused on poon job, Twitter's collaboration

957
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: has been nationwide, restricting public debate about the government's aggressive move.

958
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: And so basically they're saying that this Sikh preacher, Imri

959
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: Paul Singh is a dangerous and wanted criminal and that

960
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 1: he needs to be captured by any means necessary, and

961
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: that's why they're going to kind of shut down the

962
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: Internet for thirty million people. But what Twitter has done

963
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 1: is not allowed any public discussion to be held about

964
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: whether or not the Indian government is actually justified in

965
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: carrying this out. Anybody who would be critical from the

966
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: kind of either the opposition party or critics outside of

967
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: the country, like jag Meat Singh, who's the leader of

968
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: the kind of leftist Canadian political party, they can't even speak.

969
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: So you're just left with Mody's narrative that this guy's

970
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: so dangerous that we have to lock down an entire

971
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: region of thirty million people to round him up. Musk

972
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: hasn't responded to this yet, which I find really disturbing

973
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: because if somebody has his ear and they bring him

974
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: a problem, he's like interesting looking into it. On top

975
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: of that, two months ago he responded because there was

976
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: so much attention to our first story on this. It's

977
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: like I can't deal with everything. Come on, man, I

978
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: got so many jobs. Leave me alone. It's like, okay,

979
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: well it's been two months and now you've only kind

980
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: of taken your censorship to a higher level. So why

981
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: is that okay? If it's not okay here? Well, and

982
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: are you telling me that a request from the Indian

983
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: government is not being debated at high levels to his awareness.

984
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: I mean, I just have a hard time believing that.

985
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: I do think you said something in the monologue I

986
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: thought was really important, which was it could be a

987
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: dry run for other countries. And when you look at

988
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: Elen Musk who I think, you know, we could have

989
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 1: a conversation about some of the good some of the bad.

990
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: One of the bad is his relationship with the Chinese government.

991
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: You've pointed out his relationships with other government. I mean,

992
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: in order to do business on the scale that he

993
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: does and the types of business that he does, it's

994
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: basically unavoidable. But to take over a speech platform with

995
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: those pre existing relationships, I think raises some obviously problematic questions.

996
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: And to your point, when you already have proven a

997
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,720
Speaker 1: willingness to cooperate literally in Shinjong with the Chinese government,

998
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 1: he opened a big tesla factory in Shinjong. Well, they

999
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: were sort of in the middle of conversations about treatment

1000
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: of weaker Muslims. You don't get the benefit of doubt anymore. Yeah,

1001
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: And you and I talked about this a lot when

1002
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: they were when he was just debating whether or not

1003
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: whether or not he was going to buy Twitter that

1004
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: he could believe in his heart he could be the

1005
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: the most the most pure free speech absolutist that has

1006
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: ever lived. But if you have all of these financial

1007
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: entanglements across the world that that's going to push on

1008
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,479
Speaker 1: your heart, you're gonna say, well, free speech is good.

1009
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know, I kind OF's

1010
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: got a factory over here that needs its needs its

1011
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: supplies to keep moving, or it's just you don't care

1012
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: because it's not not here in the United States. And

1013
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,919
Speaker 1: then finally a lot of what a lot of people

1014
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: will say as well, MOSC has said he's going to

1015
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: follow the laws of the cunt Tree that he's operating

1016
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: in two things. So that one, a request from the

1017
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: executive in India is not quote unquote following the law

1018
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 1: like the old Twitter. If they would get a request

1019
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 1: from the executive in India and they did all the

1020
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: time to take down this critic or that critic, they

1021
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: would say, no, you'll come back with a court order.

1022
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 1: And when the court order would come, if it came,

1023
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: often it wouldn't, but if it came, then they would

1024
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: challenge that order in court and they would and they

1025
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: would fight and make it as difficult as possible for

1026
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: a government to censor an account, rather than a request

1027
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:35,959
Speaker 1: comes in and you're like, oh, you know, jag meats

1028
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: saying Canadian patolitician. Okay, boom nut, he's down, He's down.

1029
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: And then the second point would be, I don't even

1030
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: think that's a good policy to say that you're going

1031
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 1: to follow the laws of every country that you're in,

1032
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: because if that's the case, you never would have had

1033
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: an Arab spring, because you know, move Barak's laws did

1034
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 1: not allow for Twitter and Facebook to just allow people

1035
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: to communicate freely and publish criticism of the government. But

1036
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: it was that ability and their ability to share actually

1037
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: WikiLeaks revelations that got people out into the street and

1038
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: gave people the sense that they could actually take control

1039
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: of their own destinies. And if you would have had

1040
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: a policy at the time that said, well, we actually

1041
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: only allow speech that is allowed by a government in

1042
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: that country, then you would have no you know, you

1043
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: have no ability to protest against authoritarian governments like a

1044
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: Mobaric regime at the time, and that's where Mark Zuckerberg

1045
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: and Jack Dorsey sort of earned their rebel bond. They

1046
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: felt really good. They clearly loved it, like they relished

1047
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: having those rebel bona fides, and that very quickly changed.

1048
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's a bad policy. Obviously, it's

1049
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: bad policy. We should be exporting positive American values and

1050
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: not bending to the will of authoritarian governments. But to

1051
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: your point, I mean, is it even the policy, Like

1052
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: that's another completely legitimate question. The big takeaway, one of

1053
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: my big takeaways from this is just that when you

1054
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: have a platform as important and influential as Twitter, it

1055
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: does make me nervous. Like I love the entrepreneurial startup

1056
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: energy that Elon Musk has brought to it. I genuinely

1057
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: think that's like interesting and exciting. That's fun. It's been fun,

1058
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: and I think it can be a recipe for success

1059
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: at other sort of startups and small companies and even

1060
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: companies that have a footprint that's much bigger than the

1061
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: size of their company. I think that's cool. But man,

1062
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: do I think it also when you have something that's

1063
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: so influential like Twitter is, it's such a recipe for

1064
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: disaster and chaos. When you're understaffed, overworked, and unorganized, it's

1065
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: it's creating problems I think with speech here in the

1066
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: United States already uneven sort of violation decisions, We've already

1067
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: seen that happening. That's inevitable, but it feels like it's

1068
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: happening at a disturbing rate. Things that are promised like

1069
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: that impact people's business, like this verified membership which would

1070
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: cost like ten grand a year or something to that extent.

1071
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,919
Speaker 1: It's going to happen now, No, it's going to happen then,

1072
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: you know it just it's It does feel like a

1073
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: really powerful, influential and serious space of public discourse is

1074
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: a mess right now, and that could go in some

1075
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: dangerous directions here or abroad could indeed. So up next,

1076
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: we're going to have an interview with Sierra Leoni and

1077
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: journalist Chernoba, who wrote a book on the Ebola outbreak

1078
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: from twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen. We recently reported on

1079
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: a new apparent admission by virologist Christian Anderson that a

1080
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: lab run by the US based Viral Hemorrhagic Fever Consortium

1081
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: in Kenema, Sierra Leone was in fact performing a Bola

1082
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: research in twenty fourteen, contrary to previous denials. The presence

1083
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: of that lab along with gaping holes in the zoonotic

1084
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: theory have long led to calls for a deeper investigation

1085
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: into the origin of the twenty fourteen a Bola outbreak

1086
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: and calls for restrictions on dangerous research and tighter lab

1087
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: safety regulations. Now for background on that question, see our

1088
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: reports from last week in the week before. But today

1089
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: we're fortunate enough to be joined by a journalist who

1090
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: has been examining this issue for years, Churno Boz the

1091
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: editor of the Africanist Press, and he's the author of

1092
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: the book The Abola Outbreak in West Africa, Corporate Gangsters,

1093
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: multinationals and Rogue Politicians. He's also the ongoing target of

1094
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: death threats from the government from his government back in

1095
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: Sierra Leone. He's in exile here in the United States

1096
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: right now, and we're very fortunate to have him with

1097
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: us in the studio. And so Turno and if we

1098
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: could put up the first tearsheet here the CNN report,

1099
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: So Tcherno, the kind of mainstream version of the story

1100
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: of the Abola outbreak is that there was this two

1101
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: year old boy who's playing with some bats. YadA YadA, YadA,

1102
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: we get an Abola outbreak. So you explored this theory

1103
01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: by actually going to the village. Did the story hold up? No,

1104
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: that was when we first read the story. When the

1105
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: report came out in December twenty fourteen, I knew that there,

1106
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, there must be or their obvious inadequacies in

1107
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: the report. In the first place, it was reported that

1108
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: the in this case of the outbreak, Emil woman was

1109
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: a two year old child who the alleged was involved

1110
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: in the hunting and grilling and eating off bat that

1111
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: transmitted the virus to the child. So that did not

1112
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: hold up. So in fact, that was what triggered my

1113
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: interest to investigate the narrative, to interrogate the narrative. So

1114
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: I traveled from Cerrillly onto Guinea and then met family

1115
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: members of Emil, the father. I spoke to the father

1116
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: who was never by the time mentioned by any of

1117
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: the reports, and I that is what I documented in

1118
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: my book. Basically, part of the book, or the main

1119
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: aspect of the book, is to challenge the Domino narrative.

1120
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: We found out at the time that the child was

1121
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: not even two years old. He was eighteen months old. Yes,

1122
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: he was eighteen months all the time. So since then

1123
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: there has been a revision of the age of the

1124
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: child by even journalists who had earlier reported who had

1125
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 1: taken on that narrative, so many of the and there

1126
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: was no clinical evidence to support the fact that the

1127
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: child had actually died of ebola. In fact, medical practitioners

1128
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,479
Speaker 1: in the village, in the health clinic who had dealt

1129
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: with all of these supposing this cases, earlier cases of

1130
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: the supposed outbreak, believed that the child died of malaria

1131
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: related conditions. So that was too obvious. And I think

1132
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: more work has now increased work into that examination of

1133
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: that narrative has rendered it basically baseless. And you found

1134
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: a couple other inaccuracies or omissions around the size of

1135
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: his family and other people who were involved. What were

1136
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 1: were some of those? Yeah, there were also this is

1137
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: what you might call a larger family of the childhood

1138
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: or the siblings who were basically in the household who

1139
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: we are never infected. There was a sister, eight other

1140
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: siblings who were in the house that were never infected.

1141
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: And the report also made no mention of his of

1142
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: his p limits. So and and the key thing here

1143
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 1: is that but hunting in that area is not done

1144
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: by by by children so eighteen month olds. So MHM.

1145
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: On the surface of it, it was too obvious. And

1146
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: the report i think also mentioned the fact that insect

1147
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: eating bats were responsible for triggering the outbreak. And in

1148
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: that region, the bats that are obviously present there are

1149
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 1: foot bats and at the time food bats. We are

1150
01:03:56,080 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: not known to carry a boy or so, like I said,

1151
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: every aspect of that of that narrative has been on

1152
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 1: the mind by the fact that there was no clinical

1153
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: evidence to support the argument that Emil was the index case.

1154
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: The fact of the child was also not infected. Even

1155
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 1: though he dealt with all of the suppose index cases,

1156
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: the mode of the child and the other relatives or

1157
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: other members in the village who were supposedly identified as

1158
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 1: the primary victims of the of the of the outbreak,

1159
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 1: and and the family still believed that the child was

1160
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 1: not The child never died of ebola, right and you know, right,

1161
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: so you get this major outbreak later in March. This,

1162
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: this is happening in December. This in December. What about

1163
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: the rest of the people in the village. Did they

1164
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: believe that in hindsight that they were the epicenter of

1165
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: of the Ebola outbreak or what was there. What was

1166
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: their thoughts as you talked to that now they were

1167
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: even surprised with the fact that you know, all of

1168
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: these people, we are going there and pinpointing, you know,

1169
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: the village or highlighting the village as the as the

1170
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: epicenter of the of the outbreak. They it's we have

1171
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,439
Speaker 1: to underline the fact that many of the under five

1172
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: deaths in that region are basically are shooted with malaria.

1173
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: So that is the known, the known epidemic or disease

1174
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: that's responsible for many of the debts and has a

1175
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: similar symptoms, similar symptoms to fiver and and and and

1176
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 1: all of that. So they, like I said, recent even

1177
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: writers did a follow up interview with the father in

1178
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 1: which he actually reported exactly what we had documented, what

1179
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 1: I had documented in the book, that the child was

1180
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 1: never the in the case of the outbreak, was also

1181
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: not a victim of of of ebola. So I think

1182
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 1: that that argument has been has been settled. So because

1183
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: we disputed the fact that uh but amilian do the

1184
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 1: village was could not be the episode of the outbreak.

1185
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: We had raised the question about the lab in Kenema,

1186
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 1: which we believe there was what going on there and

1187
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: in all of the earlier conversations, nobody had mentioned the

1188
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: presence of research as in in in the neighboring region

1189
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: in in in Srira Llian. So in my in my book,

1190
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 1: as far as I know, that was one of the

1191
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: things that I argued that why was that aspect the

1192
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: presence of western research as in Kenema never part of

1193
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 1: the relevant Yes, so it's finally it's finally getting attention now.

1194
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: And so Christian Anderson, who worked in that lab, was

1195
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,919
Speaker 1: recently on a podcast and in trying to knock down

1196
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: what he called the conspiracy theory, ended up making this admission.

1197
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: We want to roll this this clip from the podcast.

1198
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,439
Speaker 1: The problem is that people see these quincs and says

1199
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: one of the new ones is the Ebola lab league,

1200
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,880
Speaker 1: which also is being blamed on us because we have

1201
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 1: been studying Ebola in Canaman, Sierra Leone and Lo and behold,

1202
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 1: Ebola emerged just a few miles from there in twenty fourteen,

1203
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: right obviously across the border in Guinea, but it's maybe

1204
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: one hundred miles or so away. And people then put

1205
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: that together and saying, oh, so that Ebola must have

1206
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: been aliab league too, And it was Robert Gary and

1207
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: Christian Anderson again. And the reason why these names keep

1208
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 1: coming up, and the reason why we get grant money

1209
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: to study infectious diseases is because we study infectious diseases

1210
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: and have done so for many, many decades. And that's

1211
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: why the names keep coming up again. Right, It's not

1212
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 1: because there's some major conspiracy theory here where all of

1213
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: us have been sort of fiddling with the fields well

1214
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: prior to the pandemic. So hearing doctor Anderson apparently acknowledged

1215
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,959
Speaker 1: that bola research was going on, which seemed to be

1216
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: the conclusion that so many other people had drawn already

1217
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: based on research papers and other evidence, and also the

1218
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: fact that it was called the hemorrhagic centers it. What

1219
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: was it like for you when you first heard that

1220
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: that admission from doctor Anderson. Well, I wasn't surprised because

1221
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: in my book I had called for the disclosure of

1222
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: all of the information relating to the work that was

1223
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 1: happening in Kenema, which had received a tremendous amount of

1224
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: funding Western defense funding from the United States and all

1225
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 1: the parts of the world who were basically concerned about

1226
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: the potential weaponization of certain pathogens that could be used

1227
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 1: as part of the modern day warfare. So I knew

1228
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: from my work as a journalist in the region that

1229
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 1: Kenma had been the center of biodefense research way back

1230
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 1: in two thousand and four subsequent to the Antras incident here,

1231
01:08:56,040 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 1: that increased funding was going on by twenty ten. I

1232
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: also knew that an Umbrell organization called the Viral Hemorrhagic

1233
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 1: Fever Consulting VHFC has been formed that coordinated all of

1234
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 1: these defense funding and research that was going on in

1235
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 1: the region. So what I was surprised about was that

1236
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,839
Speaker 1: in all of the conversations that happened from twenty fourteen

1237
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: right up to this admission, nobody was willing to admit

1238
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 1: that we should be looking at the possibility that the

1239
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: outbreak may have or the outbreak likely emerged out of

1240
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 1: the lab itself, or how is the lab the activities

1241
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: of that lab connected to what was what happened in

1242
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 1: instantly and in the region in twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen.

1243
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 1: So the admission here is, you know, we've been calling

1244
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 1: for that, We've been calling for the disclosure of information

1245
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: relating to the kind of research what's happening, and kind

1246
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 1: of my if you look at it. We most underline

1247
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: the fact that that kind of research should not be

1248
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: undertaken in an environment that lacked all of the Yes, actually,

1249
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: we have a aal aerial image of that figure. All. Yeah,

1250
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: all of the security protocols that are needed to undertake

1251
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 1: a class air patrogen and resart deliver with a class

1252
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: air patrogen are absent here. We're talking about the dilapidata,

1253
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 1: this hospital environment where medical officers lacked the basic tools

1254
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 1: of protection, right, you know, and if you and this

1255
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: was underlined by a writer's researcher, a writer as reporter

1256
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:34,719
Speaker 1: who had interviewed some of these researchers about the site

1257
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 1: being part of the US War on Terror, and researcher

1258
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: was going on there and they said they lacked the

1259
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 1: security protocol, but they're able to carry out to you know,

1260
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 1: they think it's possible to carry out the kind of work.

1261
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 1: So we are still calling for the disclosure, complete and

1262
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: full disclosure of information about the kind of research that

1263
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 1: was happening and the link, the potential link between that

1264
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: research to the outbreak, because we're talking about hundreds of lives,

1265
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of lives, you know, people dying and

1266
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 1: often now the families in the region who have been stigmatized,

1267
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 1: who have lost family members, who are still dealing with

1268
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: that trauma of the horrific nature of the outbreak, the deaths,

1269
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: and this is a region that has a history of

1270
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:32,440
Speaker 1: crisis and conflict, was tremendous exploitation of environmental and resources diamonds,

1271
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: gold box sized aluminumris that have been mined and transported

1272
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 1: by leading corporations. So it is not surprising that Western

1273
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 1: scientists and researchers will also use the same environment for

1274
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 1: the production of medical knowledge that would serve defense and

1275
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:57,559
Speaker 1: other interest outside of the protection of the communities in

1276
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 1: that region. And there's also a potentially interesting thing slip

1277
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,719
Speaker 1: that doctor Anderson makes in that clip. If you noticed

1278
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 1: he said, we're doing you a bowl of work in

1279
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: this lab, and then there was an outbreak a few

1280
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: miles away. Then he says, well, what I mean is

1281
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 1: that there was an outbreak one hundred miles away in Guinea.

1282
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:18,920
Speaker 1: But if the if the original outbreak, as you're saying,

1283
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: has been rejected by everybody in the community and has

1284
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 1: fallen apart and doesn't make sense, would it be more

1285
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: accurate what his original claim have been more accurate that

1286
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 1: actually the the original epicenter could have been within very

1287
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: close proximity to Kinema. Yes, because I even one of

1288
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 1: the statements I made in my book is the fact

1289
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: that the Lenda's narrative, which located at the European Investment

1290
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:51,720
Speaker 1: not Investment Investigative, is located at the outbreak in Guinea

1291
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 1: miles away from Kenema. Was could be a potential cover

1292
01:12:56,439 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: up because if we if they had identified Kenema as

1293
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 1: the site of the outbreak, then the defense funel and

1294
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: operation that has been going on since twenty and four

1295
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: to twenty ten and twenty fourteen would have been the

1296
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: subject of the primary interrogation. So by locating the outbreak

1297
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: and the initial in this case is miles away from Kenema,

1298
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 1: it takes people's attention away from what was potentially happening

1299
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: in Kenema and how that is related to the outbreak itself.

1300
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 1: So I think that is the essence of the Lender's narrative,

1301
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 1: with all the inadequacies, It was just repeated and popularized

1302
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: by mainstream media out here and also the academy itself.

1303
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:43,559
Speaker 1: So without pausing and examining the potential of a two

1304
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: year old boy to participate in the you know ads

1305
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 1: task of hunting and grilling of a bat. So that

1306
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 1: is the it provided an alibi basically where all of

1307
01:13:54,280 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 1: these scientific research that is potentially implicated in this tragedy

1308
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 1: that has claimed the lives of people in the region

1309
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 1: could not be part of the conversation. So in five

1310
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:09,520
Speaker 1: years down the line, now we're beginning to get admission

1311
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 1: and research related to Ibola had been ongoing and happening

1312
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: in the region. And the subtitle of your book talks

1313
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: about corporate gangsters and rogue politicians, and that gets us

1314
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: a little bit into why you're in exile now from

1315
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:26,519
Speaker 1: Sierra Leone. I wanted to talk a little bit about

1316
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: your own career kind of evolving out of the out

1317
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 1: of this book, but the what the Africans press is

1318
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:35,600
Speaker 1: up to and what kind of threats you're facing. So

1319
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 1: and I think I think we have a clip made

1320
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 1: from this one one of the journalists protection organizations that

1321
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 1: is that has stood up, that has stood up for

1322
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:47,440
Speaker 1: you and for your organization that you've been the illegitimate,

1323
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 1: you know, illegitimate subject of of threats from the government

1324
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 1: for your reporting on government corruption. What what what was

1325
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 1: the what was the reporting that that really got you

1326
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 1: in the crosshairs of of the the government and what's

1327
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: the status of that now. Well, for the last twenty years,

1328
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 1: through the African e space, we've been holding different core politicians,

1329
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: especially in Isralian and in the region in West Africa,

1330
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:17,040
Speaker 1: accountable to minimum standards of good governance and accountability. And

1331
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 1: for the last four years, we have been perhaps with

1332
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,600
Speaker 1: all humility, the only press organization in Isralian that is

1333
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: holding the current government accountable. We've reported on high levels

1334
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 1: of corruption involving the current president, the wife of the president,

1335
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 1: and all of the leading officials in government. That has

1336
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: led to a a tremendous amount of exposed the government's facad

1337
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 1: and hypocrisy in its commitment to fight corruption, and that

1338
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 1: has actually resulted into all kinds of threads against my

1339
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 1: life to the point that I cannot go back home

1340
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 1: right now. And then, Yeah, their threat has and their

1341
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 1: response has been almost comically aggressive. Yes they've Yeah, they've

1342
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 1: gone as far as sacking the Auditor General of the

1343
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 1: of the of the National Audit Service is Relion including

1344
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 1: fire their top order thinking he is a source of

1345
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: yse Yes, it's a woman's thinking. She's a very credible

1346
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: woman who was known over the years whole you know,

1347
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: for presenting reports that detailed public the misuse of public funds.

1348
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 1: And the current president sacked, fired constititionally on the suspicion

1349
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 1: that the Audit Service was responsible for providing details of

1350
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 1: government corruption to The African Express and only that. Even

1351
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 1: people in the Central Bank have also been sacked, bankers,

1352
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 1: other public officials to we have counted over one hundred

1353
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: and seven where you're getting this, yeah, trying to figure

1354
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: out how we should blow us or the source of

1355
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:42,960
Speaker 1: our information. How many they fired? Did you say? More

1356
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 1: than one hundred and seventy of people who've counted so far,

1357
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: in in in, in in across the government, from the

1358
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: Minister of Finance, the President's office, the Central Bank Australion

1359
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 1: to the Audit Service and still an ongoing process of harassing,

1360
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:01,560
Speaker 1: harassing people. Nobody could even identify themselves since relion affiliates

1361
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 1: of the African Express, because it's dangerous to do so.

1362
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: So your reporters are writing under names, yes, yes, underground

1363
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 1: those of us who put our real names and people

1364
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 1: who are outside of the country, right. Yeah. We talk

1365
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 1: a lot about in the United States about so and

1366
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: so just produced a courageous report. And I always think

1367
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 1: about reporters, I like the ones who are working for

1368
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: you and yourself, that who are doing actually courageous journalism

1369
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 1: that could lead to real consequences rather than some mean

1370
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:36,719
Speaker 1: things said about you online. Yes, that's what I've witnessed,

1371
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: threads coming from all, you know, both sides of the

1372
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: political divide, from the opposition parties in parliament and also

1373
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,840
Speaker 1: the ruling parties. So you find those who support your

1374
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 1: work would only do so when they find a political

1375
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 1: interest in doing that. When you write about their opponents

1376
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,680
Speaker 1: or you reveal things that are supposedly damaging to the

1377
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: opponents the Halia work, you present something that affects their

1378
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 1: own political interest, they also condemn you. So we are

1379
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:09,559
Speaker 1: caught between that line, you know, in the middle of

1380
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: that crossfire among these correpor politicians. I called them two

1381
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:18,679
Speaker 1: functions of the same ruling class who've divided themselves along

1382
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 1: these parties that you know, but they pursue the same thing,

1383
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 1: loot public funds. Uh, this disregard the welfare of ordinary

1384
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:29,479
Speaker 1: people and then are committed to uplifting society. Now, yeah,

1385
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:33,719
Speaker 1: we have that here too, We sure do. So everybody

1386
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 1: here at the Breaking Points Networks certainly deeply supportive of

1387
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 1: the work you're doing to expose this corruption. Really, thank

1388
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 1: you for joining us here, and I'm glad you could

1389
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 1: be in studio. We're lucky that you were coming through town.

1390
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. All right, So that was Chernobo.

1391
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:53,679
Speaker 1: We taped that. We taped that interview earlier this week.

1392
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: Emily wasn't able to join us for that one. Starry,

1393
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 1: you couldn't be there. No, no, no, this is this

1394
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:00,880
Speaker 1: is this topic also you know it inside and out

1395
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 1: because you've been looking at this for a while. What

1396
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,679
Speaker 1: were your big takeaways from this conversation with Turno, Well,

1397
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One, Uh, just the extraordinary courage

1398
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 1: that that Turno and his colleagues have shown at the

1399
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 1: at the africanis press uh to be to be going

1400
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 1: up against the be, going up against the powers that

1401
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:23,599
Speaker 1: be in those in those countries, not just Sierra Leone,

1402
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 1: but Guinea Liberia elsewhere. It's it's real, it's it's it's

1403
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 1: sad that he is in exile. Uh, it is it

1404
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 1: is a credit to the authenticity and the power of

1405
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 1: his work that he has been pushed into exile. There

1406
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:40,639
Speaker 1: there are going to be elections in June in Sierra Leone,

1407
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 1: and there's there's some hope that there will that there

1408
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 1: will be some enough political change that could allow uh

1409
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:51,360
Speaker 1: some uh churno bond some of the other uh you know,

1410
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:54,639
Speaker 1: kind of dissident journalists to return back back into the country.

1411
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 1: Before the interview, he and I were talking about how

1412
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 1: how the way that he was describing their work felt

1413
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: very similar to the way that the Intercepts work is received.

1414
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:09,640
Speaker 1: He's like, whenever we are attacking the government, then the

1415
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 1: opposition party is sharing our work, is celebrating us as

1416
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 1: these as these courageous independent journalists who are just speaking

1417
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 1: truth to power. And then the next week they'll they'll

1418
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 1: expose corruption within the opposition parties and then they're just

1419
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, stooges of this and that other thing, and uh,

1420
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 1: you know, you can't this is just character assassination. And

1421
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 1: and but and but the very clear differences that have

1422
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:36,080
Speaker 1: won to one hundred percent clear about it. They are

1423
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:40,719
Speaker 1: facing you know, serious, you know, physical and safety risks

1424
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:43,640
Speaker 1: for the for the work that they do, whereas we

1425
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 1: suffer from mean tweets, yes, basically brutal yeah, and some

1426
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: mean dms every now. Yeah, but his his work on UH,

1427
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 1: you know, his his work on the Ebola outbreak is

1428
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 1: it was was path breaking and you know, he was,

1429
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: for instance, the first one to demonstrate that the patient zero,

1430
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:07,840
Speaker 1: the meal was not two years old, was eighteen months

1431
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 1: and that was that was a critical discovery which later

1432
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 1: the rest of the kind of conventional narrative had to

1433
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:18,679
Speaker 1: incorporate helped discovered that the dates were off. He also

1434
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 1: he also discovered that a Meal was, as he mentioned

1435
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 1: in the interview, part of a very large family, and

1436
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:29,759
Speaker 1: that his siblings did not end up catching a Bola,

1437
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,799
Speaker 1: which nor did his father, who treated him the entire time,

1438
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 1: which is just extraordinarily difficult to imagine, which would make

1439
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 1: it more likely that the local doctors diagnosis of what

1440
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 1: he had of malaria was actually was actually accurate. And

1441
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 1: so that if you cannot pinpoint the patient zero to

1442
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:56,800
Speaker 1: early December or even late December as they changed as

1443
01:21:56,840 --> 01:22:00,759
Speaker 1: they changed it to later in this village, and where

1444
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 1: did it start and how and the overlap with COVID

1445
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:08,680
Speaker 1: is obviously fascinating and direct, Like like several of the

1446
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:13,040
Speaker 1: key figures in the UH COVID lab League controversy were

1447
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 1: literally present at that one. Unbelievable. I look forward to

1448
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 1: your future reporting on it. I know that you're you're

1449
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 1: not giving up on this. Yes, it's yeah, it's it's

1450
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:28,639
Speaker 1: it's awful to think about how these all of these,

1451
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 1: all of these deaths, all of the suffering, may have

1452
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:37,679
Speaker 1: been preventable by just smarter policy, smarter policy and more transparency. Wow.

1453
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 1: All right, well that does it for us in this

1454
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 1: edition of Counterpoints. Thank you so much for watching. We

1455
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 1: hope you have a great rest of your week, and

1456
01:22:44,840 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 1: we will see you back here next Wednesday.