WEBVTT - #555 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Frank Gable 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.359 This episode of wrongful Conviction contains discussion of suicidal ideation. 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:11.080 Please listen with caution and care. At six forty five 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:15.800 pm on January seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, the director of 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:20.160 Oregon Corrections Michael Frankie, had left work ready to testify 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.640 the following day before the state legislature about corruption within 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:29.440 his department. But by seven to twenty pm, staffers notice 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:31.720 that his car was still in his parking spot with 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.520 the door ajar, but Frankie was nowhere in sight. Five 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.120 hours later, his body was discovered outside the building's portico, 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.680 fatally stabbed. Local authorities were quick to call it a 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.159 car burglary gone wrong, even though Frankie's wallet, watch, and 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:52.200 keys warrant missing. Then months later, an alleged tip led 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.000 them to twenty nine year old Frank Gable, who maintained 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:59.000 his innocence through a violent interrogation. So police found eight 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.480 more people who were willing to cooperate as for the 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.440 testimony Michael Frankie was scheduled to deliver that following day. 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.880 That must have had nothing to do with it. This 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:18.800 is wrongful conviction. The Fox Foundation is proud to support 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.080 this episode of wrongful conviction and the work of After Innocence, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.479 a nonprofit that helps hundreds of people nationwide rebuild their 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:31.560 lives after wrongful incarceration. Each year, innocent people are released 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.919 after spending years behind bars for crimes they didn't commit. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.160 Nearly all of them leave prison with nothing more than 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.199 the clothes on their backs, with no help or compensation 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.000 from the state as they face the steep challenges of 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:49.040 rebuilding their lives after wrongful imprisonment. After Innocence is changing 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.280 that After Innocence helps exoneries get and make good use 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.640 of essential services like health care, dental care, mental health support, 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.680 legal aid, financial counseling, and more. Since twenty sixteen, they've 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.680 brought that help to more than eight hundred exoneries across 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.440 forty six states, working tirelessly to ensure that no one 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.160 released after wrongful incarceration is left behind. Learn more at 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.840 after Dashinnocence dot org and join After Innocence to support 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:33.520 exoneries as they rebuild their lives. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.040 This is Lauren Bright Pacheco and I am joined now 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.360 by Jason Flahm, and I have to tell you, Jason, 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.960 this is such an incredible full circle moment for me 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.720 because on this episode we're speaking with Frank Gable, who 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:53.080 was wrongfully convicted and spent nearly thirty years for the 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:58.040 murder of Michael Frankie, who was the then head of 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.480 Oregon's Department of Corrections. But indirectly, it's really why you 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.919 and I met In twenty eighteen, I had left television 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.520 but took a freelance job as a producer just to 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:16.000 meet you, because when I was researching Murder and Oregon, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:23.680 it was the first real wrongful conviction I had encountered 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.840 from an investigative standpoint, and so to educate myself, I 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:33.760 googled wrongful conviction and what pops up but your podcast, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.680 which is why I wanted to meet you. And I 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.480 casually mentioned that I had a podcast too, and that's 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.119 when we made the connection that you were actually listening 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.160 to Murder and Oregon at the time. 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.400 Well, I mean listening is not the right word. I 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:54.640 had been obsessing about it. It's just got so many 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:59.200 layers of insanity as it goes up levels into the 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.600 even government, it's almost too much. 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.080 It is a case of corruption that went high up 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:06.000 the ranks. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.640 Yeah, and I think the one hope that we have 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.040 is that by shining a light and not letting this 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:18.240 story die, that maybe eventually people in positions of power 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.080 will feel the heat. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.840 All right, Well, with that, we will share the interview 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.440 with Frank Gable, who, again I feel very connected to Frank, 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.719 to you, to Michael Frankie's brothers, Pat and to Kevin, 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.159 and to Phil Stamford. It's very much a full circle 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.960 moment for me. And I don't know if justice will 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.200 truly ever be served in this case. But if there 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.800 was ever a case in which accountability is called for, 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.520 it is the conviction of Frank Gable in the murder 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:52.560 of Michael Frankie. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:53.120 It was so. 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.800 Brutally murdered for no other reason than the fact that 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:57.960 he was trying to do the right thing. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:04:59.560 He was trying to fix the system. 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:01.359 Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was trying to fix it, and 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.400 so the whole thing is exactly opposite of. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:05.200 What it's supposed to be. 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.159 In nineteen eighty seven, Michael Frankie, a Navy veteran, former 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.000 prosecutor and judge who went on to be the director 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.760 of Corrections in New Mexico, was then hired to overhaul 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.440 the Oregon Department of Corrections, which was headquartered at the 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.080 Dome Building in Salem, Oregon. And in a town like 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.240 this where the main employer is the prison, one can 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.799 typically expect a sluggish economy with a thriving drug market, 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.840 and it appears those two elements had intertwined in Salem. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.560 In fact, just a year earlier, an investigation into drugs 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.719 smuggling at the prison led to the resignation of the 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.960 prison superintendent as well as several guards losing their jobs. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.600 Like, I've seen a lot of just shady stuff there, 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:56.400 you know, like use an inmate labor, to stealing equipment, 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.159 to funneling drugs in and out, to all kind of 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.440 just criminal behavior that they were doing. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.440 That is Frank different Cloud, known to the state as 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.560 Frank Gable, talking about the corruption in Salem that even 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.680 a state representative had described to me as similar to 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:15.479 the mafia. 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.559 Yeah, there's an all buddy system because it's the prisonal hire. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.360 Like your uncle and your grandpa, you know, his brother 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.440 and then so if something happens, who they going to 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.040 believe the three cousins that are making a story up 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.000 on you and telling you, oh, yeah, he had these 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.039 drugs or whatever. He had, and you know, and that's 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:34.760 how they do it. 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.400 So Michael Frankie was hired as the director of Corrections 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.280 in Oregon, only to be murdered twenty months later. And 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.520 Frank was framed for that murder. And I'd like to 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.960 welcome him as well as his attorney, Rachel Brady. 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.280 I think he's glad to do it. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.760 And so, Frank, you were a married man at this time. 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.600 Tell us about your life in Salem. 0:06:58.000 --> 0:06:59.880 I don't know, like, you know, I'm just like to say, 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.360 I'm an outdoors person. I like to fish in a hunt. 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.839 But then you know, I got off track, you know, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.760 was drinking and using myth infetamine and you know it 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.200 was just bad. You know, it's shit I'm not proud of. 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.680 But you were surrounded by that in Salem at the time. 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:18.480 Yeah, there was a lot of it around there, and 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.920 you know, I wasn't just in it for a short time. 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.160 But it didn't take but a short time to just 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.800 destroy my life, you know, and might caused a lot 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:26.600 to just have it. 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.440 Frank's involvement in the drug scene made him familiar with 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.720 the system, including a bunk exchange program which was born 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.520 out of overcrowding, allowing inmates to cycle out for a 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.280 week at a time to make room for others, which 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.600 also allowed for the free flow of contraband, and one 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.840 can imagine that this Golden Boy outsider, Michael Frankie, was 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.880 not welcomed by the folks who were profiting from that 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.360 free flow. In fact, Michael was set to testify in 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.000 front of the State legislature on January eighteenth, nineteen eighty nine, 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.800 about his findings, which brings us to the night before. 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.360 Around six forty five pm, Michael Frankie left work at 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.040 the Dome building and according to the Custodian, around seven 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.720 pm he'd seen two men in the parking lot in 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.280 some kind of altercation and one walked back to the building, 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:20.120 while the other who fled was described as six foot short, 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.200 dark hair, one hundred and seventy five pounds, twenty to 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.920 forty years old, wearing a tanned trench coat. Now between 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.800 seven o five and seven to twenty pm, several other 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.280 staffers had seen Michael's car still in his parking space 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.640 with the door ajar, but Michael was not discovered until 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.120 twelve forty am, lying in a pool of blood at 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.840 the Dome Building's north portico, stabbed in the torso, arm 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.800 and heart. He also had some defensive wounds, and despite 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.480 the almost six hour gap between an alleged altercation in 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.320 the parking lot and the discovery of his body, the 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.839 official theory became a car burglary gone wrong. 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.760 Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole story of you know, their 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:07.440 car burst. This foolish. I mean, like I've seen crime 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.160 seen photos and stuff, and you could look in that car, 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.200 like if you just looked in the window, there's nothing 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.080 in there. Who's going to break into it? 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.880 Yeah, parts in front of the head of the Department 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.960 of Correction sign Frankie's found with his wallet, his watch, 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.880 his car keys. Nothing was gone except they think the 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.720 briefcase that would have had floppy discs and his computer, 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:34.800 which would have been the meat of the investigation. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.239 They just jumped on something because I think Johnny Kraus 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.760 put that in their head and they just went with 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:42.960 that theory after that, I don't know. 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.400 In February nineteen eighty nine, another local named Johnny Krause 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.320 told his parole officer that he'd witness a group of 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.240 men beating up one man by the Dome Building that night, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.280 which later became that he'd been offered three hundred thousand 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:02.000 dollars to murder Michael Frankie. Then that April, Kraus confessed 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:07.240 again to the carburglary theory, which sounds suspicious, but his 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.000 confessions contained elements not shared with the public, like the 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.360 location of the stab wounds, that he'd worn a tan jacket, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.360 and that Michael yelped when he was stabbed, which aligned 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.440 with the custodian's account. He'd also repeated this confession to 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.680 his brother, mother, and girlfriend in front of authorities, and 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.439 soon we'll discuss why this lead was ignored in favor 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:31.360 of Frank Gabel. 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.920 Well, first, I got arrested in I think it was 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.800 June in Salem for driving an unauthorized motor vehicle. They 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.800 come in and wanted to talk to me then, and 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.920 we're asking all people that are inmates where you were. 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.040 And I told mom, I think I was home with 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.440 my wife, you know, and I was it, and they 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.520 asked times and he put the police report in there, 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:53.920 and that's what it says. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.880 Mind you, this is four months later, so Frank wasn't sure, 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.200 and he said, I think I was home with my wife. 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.920 And as investigators continued to ignore Kraus's confession, they spoke 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:10.040 with other potential suspects, like Michael Kieran's, who deflected blame 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.720 from himself by claiming Frank Gable had confessed to him, 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.320 at which point the police went to the local media 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.680 to broadcast that Frank Gable, who they also alleged was 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.560 a police informant, was now their main suspect. And so 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.600 ten months in, they dragged Frank in again to ask 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.439 his whereabouts, and again Frank wasn't sure, so he offered 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.000 that perhaps he was with his friend Shelley Thomas. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.520 They was interrogating me, telling me, oh, well, where else 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.559 could he have been? I said, well, if I wasn't there, 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.840 I was at Shelley's. And then they'd go, oh, Shelley says, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:43.800 you wasn't there. Yeah. 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.000 The crazy thing is I think it would be difficult 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.000 for anybody to remember where they were. 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.600 Not ten months later. I mean I didn't even remember 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.960 telling like I read a bunch of police supports and 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.840 then we talked a bunch and like, you're not going 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.840 to know unless it was like somebody specific, like birthday 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.679 or you were at work and you knew that, and 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.480 that's what he said. When it was interiorgating, He's like, oh, well, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.719 you said you were here, and you said you were there, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.040 and I said no, you asked me where I possibly 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.720 would and I'm trying to help you figure out where 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:14.560 maybe I was. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.840 But it turned out that they knew where Frank was. 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.480 On January seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, Frank and his wife 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.679 Janine didn't have a quiet night at home. They hosted 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.960 a pretty loud party, one that was so loud, in fact, 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.440 that their landlord issued them an eviction notice the next day. 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.120 Yeah, we had that eviction notice. And that kathing on 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.480 that eviction notice is when the police asked me. He said, well, Frank, 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.600 what did you get the eviction notice for? And I 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.800 don't hesitate. I don't say, well, which one, because like 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.520 we had multiple ones we had won, and that was 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.080 that eviction notice. And they asked me that. I said, oh, 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.520 blah blah blah, and they said, well, who was all there? 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.800 I said all the neighbor kids through the play. These 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.720 people were all here, and blah blah blah. Then immediately 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.640 he realizes, I think that I know where I was 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.560 on that night because the key here is he doesn't 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.439 say that eviction notices for the night of the seventeenth, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.760 which is the night of the murder. He just says, 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.080 what did you get the eviction notice for? And I 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.160 started telling now all these people, there's nine people at 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.240 this plate being thrown or mentioned this plate being thrown, 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.360 or the landlady, or my ex wife, or the two 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:27.760 neighbor kids, Lamontley, Robert Cornett, Kevin Walker were all there, everybody, 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.480 and I'm listed it off. And then he goes off 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.840 tape right there and says, oh, we're gonna go off tape, 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.720 and then comes back on a completely different subject. So 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.760 at that point he knew that I knew where I. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.520 Was, and perhaps this explains why they're alleged main suspect 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.760 was let go once again. But then they picked up 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.920 Jody Swearingen, a team runaway with a juvenile record who 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.080 initially said she didn't know anything, but according to her 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:59.080 later recantations, trial testimony, and sworn Affidavid's, she was interrogated 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.920 twelve times, given twenty three polygraphs, after each one being 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.000 told she was lying and that she was going to 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.719 face criminal charges. So she told a story about how 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.840 her boyfriend Kapi had picked her up at the Dome Building, 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.800 which also housed the Oregon Psychiatric Hospital, and from his 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.920 car they had witnessed Frank stab Michael. So they arrested 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.320 Frank and tried to coerce a confession. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.920 Well, they wanted me to take a polygraph. I'm telling 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.800 them I didn't do it. All these multiple detectives are 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.680 just interrogating you and calling you murder and talking bad 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.720 about your ex wife and your mom, telling you she's dying, 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.600 telling me I'm going to get to death penalty, all 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.240 kind of crap like that, trying to make me confess 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.560 to something. It was crazy, like they had me crying, 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.520 they break me down, and they got so mad because 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.400 I keep repeating over and over I didn't do it. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:54.720 I don't know who did. I wasn't there. If you 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.440 read the police reports, it just says that I don't 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.800 know how many times I said that, And McCafferty got 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:01.680 mad and that's why he choked me because I kept 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.080 saying that and he goes, oh, you're going to cry 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:05.800 or something, and I said, oh, you want me to 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.800 cry like that. I was getting irritated with him, and 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.960 he choked me out I woke up doing the dry 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.160 tuning like this, and my shoulder was full of slobbery 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.480 because that's how long I was blacked out because right 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.640 here was all wet. And then Fred Akerman had said, oh, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.840 well they had and argument, but he never really choked him. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.600 He choked me on. I mean, if the guy didn't 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.240 choke me now here, I am sixty six years old, 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:31.840 why would I need to lie about the guy choking me. 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:52.040 I just think back to how confused you must have been, 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.640 knowing that you were innocent and not understanding why they 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.000 were so aggressively trying to get you to confess. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.040 Yeah, because all they do is ask you questions to 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.440 try to implicate you. Period. That's all they're doing. They're 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.920 not trying to like, go, oh it is this guy innocent. 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.680 They're just trying to implicate your ass. They don't care, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.120 they don't have to have no evidence, nothing, They will 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:17.840 just come at you. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.640 I want to just point back to two things. One 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.840 you mentioned the tape going off and the tape going 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.720 back on, And that's really important because they basically use 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.480 selective recordings to make it look like you were incriminating yourself. 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.480 Oh yeah, they would make statements then try to make 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.080 it sound like I said something that I didn't like 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:39.200 the God me statement. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.560 The God me statement Frank's talking about was a moment 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.040 in this stop and Go recording in which Frank said 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.840 there were quote only two people who know who killed Frankie, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.320 Frankie and God end quote and a detective pointed out 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.600 that Frankie couldn't know because he was dead. 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.560 And I said, well, I know this, I know and 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:01.840 God know. And then he jumps on and says, oh, 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.800 Fridian slip. And I said, well, what's that now. I'm 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:07.960 just a young country kid. I didn't know what the 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.280 hell Freudian slip man. And he's explaining the Freudian slip. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.760 It's like, well, your mouth says something before your mind 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.679 catches it, and da da da, And so you just 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.879 confess to the murder that you said only you and 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.119 God know who did it. I said, no, I didn't 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:22.960 say that. I said, you cut me off with the 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.000 Friudian slip thing. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.760 But it appears that even they knew that didn't amount 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.480 to a confession, since they dragged in a trove of 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.560 people from the drug scene in Salem looking to gather 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.960 statements and they use the same tactics that they used 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:39.800 on Frank and Jodi Swarringen. 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:45.760 So polygraphs are unreliable, they are not admissible in court, 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.359 they are impossible to verify, and they are subject completely 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:55.280 to the polygraph examiner's interpretation of the information that comes 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.840 out at the charts. Polygraphs are also really scary, and 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:04.919 they're intimidating, and for witnesses who have other crimes in 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.600 their backgrounds, for witnesses who are vulnerable in any number 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.720 of ways, witnesses who are being threatened with other crimes, 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.359 this crime, witnesses who are being threatened to have their 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.480 children taken away from them, any number of vulnerabilities can 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:19.240 be exploited. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.240 Some of the stuff they did to some of these 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.200 witness and like say Shelley Thomas go over there, threaten 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.680 to arrest her take her child away if she didn't 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.320 bring the right story. Or John and Kelly Bender, they 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.960 got them turn on each other and make different stories. 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.000 And then the stories that they were developing, I mean 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.320 it was so like you can just see they weren't true. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.040 So then they'd take them and change that story, like 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.560 take them out to the crime scene or give them 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:47.440 a polygraph. 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:49.800 So when you have a person who comes into a 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.439 polygraph in a heightened emotional state with a lot on 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:57.280 the line, can very easily figure out what answer they 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.040 think they're supposed to be giving to any question on 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.639 a polygraph. And none of these witnesses were polygraphed once. 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.160 They were polygraphed repeatedly, multiple times over the same day, 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.600 over in the middle of the night, over the course 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.040 of months. These witnesses were given polygraphs, and each time 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.080 they were told which questions they passed and which questions 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:16.600 they failed. 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:18.880 So they were using them as a training tool. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.080 Yes, absolutely, And so if any person could figure out, oh, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.920 I failed this particular question on a polygraph, and my 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.560 freedom is at stake, let me just give a different 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.679 answer next time I'm asked a similar question. And you 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.240 can see the progression every single witness. You can see 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.400 the progression and the questions they're asked and how their 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:36.800 answers change over time. 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.120 Like what happened over Jody's swearing gens twenty three polygraphs. 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.840 Jody said they took her to the crime scene like 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.760 thirteen times, told her there were cigarette butts on the ground, 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.960 what kind they were? Just so they could form a 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.960 later story. Said, oh, well, there were some cigarette butts 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.880 over here. Do you smoke camels? And she says yeah, Jody, 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.879 she's a sixteen year old runaway and you're taking her 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.439 out of Hillcrest giving her a nine hundred dollars in 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.880 cash at sixteen seventeen years old. What do you think 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.679 she's going to go do with it? She's gonna go 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.560 buy myth and fetomine and hang out with the meth heads. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.000 Like her boyfriend Kathy Hardin, who came in and backed 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.800 up her story that they had actually seen Frank Gable 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:24.120 stab Michael Frankie in the parking lot. And investigators visited 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.600 other vulnerable people from the Salem drug scene who knew Frank, 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.280 like Earl Childers, who claimed to have seen Frank driving 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.320 near the scene that night and that Frank later confessed 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.040 to him while they were doing meth. Then there was 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.080 Mark Gesner, who claimed that Frank had dropped by his 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.320 house that night and asked him to get rid of 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.920 a bag of clothes. And then Kevin Walker said that 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.480 Frank had confessed to him the following day. 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.480 Now, I've never ever had any real bones with Kevin 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.199 Walker ever like I liked him, he liked me, I 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.800 thought him or Mark Gist's dumb ass. And I didn't 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.480 even meet Mark gust until then. First came to my 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.520 house was that viction. Notice that's the first night. So 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.320 how was I ever going to his house and bring 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.480 him a damn bag of clothes or whatever he said 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:10.880 and throwing it off a freaking bridge or a river. 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.760 That's the crazy part about Kevin Walker and Mark Gesner. 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:16.920 On the night of the murder. They were both at 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.080 Frank's house party that got him evicted, So they should 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:21.480 have been alibi witnesses. 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.200 Like every one of them had some kind of crime 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.879 against him, like charge like Guesner's federal charges and guns, drugs, 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.800 and then like Earl Childers Jeanie, all of them. 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.600 Frank's wife should have been an alibi witness too, But 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.200 somewhere during this investigation, she and Frank had a huge 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.960 falling out and she had lost custody of her daughter. 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.480 So investigators promised to get her daughter back if she 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.679 said there was no house party on January seventeenth, but 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.240 rather that she was home with her daughter while Frank 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.320 was out somewhere in the car in addition, there were 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.960 Daniel Walsh and Linda Perkins who also claimed that Frank 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.399 had made vague, incriminating statements. 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.399 The thing that sets Frank's case apart from most of 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.919 the other cases that I've worked on is just the 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.960 sheer volume of the misconduct. There are some cases and 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:16.919 small departments where one detective coerces one witness into providing 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.520 a false identification and the whole investigation is wrapped up 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:23.360 in twenty four hours. Frank was antagonized by law enforcement 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.600 for months and months before he was ultimately charged, and 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.479 law enforcement went to such astonishing lengths to tie up 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:39.200