1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: This episode of wrongful Conviction contains discussion of suicidal ideation. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 2: Please listen with caution and care. At six forty five 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: pm on January seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, the director of 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: Oregon Corrections Michael Frankie, had left work ready to testify 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: the following day before the state legislature about corruption within 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: his department. But by seven to twenty pm, staffers notice 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: that his car was still in his parking spot with 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 2: the door ajar, but Frankie was nowhere in sight. Five 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: hours later, his body was discovered outside the building's portico, 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: fatally stabbed. Local authorities were quick to call it a 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 2: car burglary gone wrong, even though Frankie's wallet, watch, and 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 2: keys warrant missing. Then months later, an alleged tip led 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: them to twenty nine year old Frank Gable, who maintained 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: his innocence through a violent interrogation. So police found eight 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: more people who were willing to cooperate as for the 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: testimony Michael Frankie was scheduled to deliver that following day. 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: That must have had nothing to do with it. This 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: is wrongful conviction. The Fox Foundation is proud to support 19 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: this episode of wrongful conviction and the work of After Innocence, 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 2: a nonprofit that helps hundreds of people nationwide rebuild their 21 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: lives after wrongful incarceration. Each year, innocent people are released 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 2: after spending years behind bars for crimes they didn't commit. 23 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: Nearly all of them leave prison with nothing more than 24 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 2: the clothes on their backs, with no help or compensation 25 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: from the state as they face the steep challenges of 26 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: rebuilding their lives after wrongful imprisonment. After Innocence is changing 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: that After Innocence helps exoneries get and make good use 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: of essential services like health care, dental care, mental health support, 29 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: legal aid, financial counseling, and more. Since twenty sixteen, they've 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: brought that help to more than eight hundred exoneries across 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: forty six states, working tirelessly to ensure that no one 32 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: released after wrongful incarceration is left behind. Learn more at 33 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: after Dashinnocence dot org and join After Innocence to support 34 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: exoneries as they rebuild their lives. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 35 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: This is Lauren Bright Pacheco and I am joined now 36 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: by Jason Flahm, and I have to tell you, Jason, 37 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: this is such an incredible full circle moment for me 38 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: because on this episode we're speaking with Frank Gable, who 39 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 2: was wrongfully convicted and spent nearly thirty years for the 40 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: murder of Michael Frankie, who was the then head of 41 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: Oregon's Department of Corrections. But indirectly, it's really why you 42 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: and I met In twenty eighteen, I had left television 43 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: but took a freelance job as a producer just to 44 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: meet you, because when I was researching Murder and Oregon, 45 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: it was the first real wrongful conviction I had encountered 46 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: from an investigative standpoint, and so to educate myself, I 47 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: googled wrongful conviction and what pops up but your podcast, 48 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: which is why I wanted to meet you. And I 49 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: casually mentioned that I had a podcast too, and that's 50 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 2: when we made the connection that you were actually listening 51 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: to Murder and Oregon at the time. 52 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: Well, I mean listening is not the right word. I 53 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: had been obsessing about it. It's just got so many 54 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: layers of insanity as it goes up levels into the 55 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: even government, it's almost too much. 56 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: It is a case of corruption that went high up 57 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: the ranks. 58 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the one hope that we have 59 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: is that by shining a light and not letting this 60 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 3: story die, that maybe eventually people in positions of power 61 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 3: will feel the heat. 62 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: All right, Well, with that, we will share the interview 63 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: with Frank Gable, who, again I feel very connected to Frank, 64 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: to you, to Michael Frankie's brothers, Pat and to Kevin, 65 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: and to Phil Stamford. It's very much a full circle 66 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: moment for me. And I don't know if justice will 67 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: truly ever be served in this case. But if there 68 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: was ever a case in which accountability is called for, 69 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: it is the conviction of Frank Gable in the murder 70 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: of Michael Frankie. 71 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: It was so. 72 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: Brutally murdered for no other reason than the fact that 73 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: he was trying to do the right thing. 74 00:04:58,279 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: He was trying to fix the system. 75 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was trying to fix it, and 76 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: so the whole thing is exactly opposite of. 77 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 4: What it's supposed to be. 78 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty seven, Michael Frankie, a Navy veteran, former 79 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: prosecutor and judge who went on to be the director 80 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: of Corrections in New Mexico, was then hired to overhaul 81 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: the Oregon Department of Corrections, which was headquartered at the 82 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: Dome Building in Salem, Oregon. And in a town like 83 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: this where the main employer is the prison, one can 84 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 2: typically expect a sluggish economy with a thriving drug market, 85 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: and it appears those two elements had intertwined in Salem. 86 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: In fact, just a year earlier, an investigation into drugs 87 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: smuggling at the prison led to the resignation of the 88 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: prison superintendent as well as several guards losing their jobs. 89 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: Like, I've seen a lot of just shady stuff there, 90 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, like use an inmate labor, to stealing equipment, 91 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: to funneling drugs in and out, to all kind of 92 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: just criminal behavior that they were doing. 93 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: That is Frank different Cloud, known to the state as 94 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: Frank Gable, talking about the corruption in Salem that even 95 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: a state representative had described to me as similar to 96 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: the mafia. 97 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's an all buddy system because it's the prisonal hire. 98 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: Like your uncle and your grandpa, you know, his brother 99 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: and then so if something happens, who they going to 100 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: believe the three cousins that are making a story up 101 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: on you and telling you, oh, yeah, he had these 102 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: drugs or whatever. He had, and you know, and that's 103 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: how they do it. 104 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: So Michael Frankie was hired as the director of Corrections 105 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 2: in Oregon, only to be murdered twenty months later. And 106 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: Frank was framed for that murder. And I'd like to 107 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: welcome him as well as his attorney, Rachel Brady. 108 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: I think he's glad to do it. 109 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: And so, Frank, you were a married man at this time. 110 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: Tell us about your life in Salem. 111 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, like, you know, I'm just like to say, 112 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm an outdoors person. I like to fish in a hunt. 113 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: But then you know, I got off track, you know, 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: was drinking and using myth infetamine and you know it 115 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: was just bad. You know, it's shit I'm not proud of. 116 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: But you were surrounded by that in Salem at the time. 117 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a lot of it around there, and 118 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't just in it for a short time. 119 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: But it didn't take but a short time to just 120 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: destroy my life, you know, and might caused a lot 121 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: to just have it. 122 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: Frank's involvement in the drug scene made him familiar with 123 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: the system, including a bunk exchange program which was born 124 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: out of overcrowding, allowing inmates to cycle out for a 125 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: week at a time to make room for others, which 126 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: also allowed for the free flow of contraband, and one 127 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: can imagine that this Golden Boy outsider, Michael Frankie, was 128 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: not welcomed by the folks who were profiting from that 129 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: free flow. In fact, Michael was set to testify in 130 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: front of the State legislature on January eighteenth, nineteen eighty nine, 131 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: about his findings, which brings us to the night before. 132 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: Around six forty five pm, Michael Frankie left work at 133 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: the Dome building and according to the Custodian, around seven 134 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: pm he'd seen two men in the parking lot in 135 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: some kind of altercation and one walked back to the building, 136 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: while the other who fled was described as six foot short, 137 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: dark hair, one hundred and seventy five pounds, twenty to 138 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: forty years old, wearing a tanned trench coat. Now between 139 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: seven o five and seven to twenty pm, several other 140 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: staffers had seen Michael's car still in his parking space 141 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: with the door ajar, but Michael was not discovered until 142 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: twelve forty am, lying in a pool of blood at 143 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: the Dome Building's north portico, stabbed in the torso, arm 144 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: and heart. He also had some defensive wounds, and despite 145 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: the almost six hour gap between an alleged altercation in 146 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: the parking lot and the discovery of his body, the 147 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 2: official theory became a car burglary gone wrong. 148 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole story of you know, their 149 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: car burst. This foolish. I mean, like I've seen crime 150 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: seen photos and stuff, and you could look in that car, 151 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: like if you just looked in the window, there's nothing 152 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: in there. Who's going to break into it? 153 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, parts in front of the head of the Department 154 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: of Correction sign Frankie's found with his wallet, his watch, 155 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: his car keys. Nothing was gone except they think the 156 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: briefcase that would have had floppy discs and his computer, 157 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: which would have been the meat of the investigation. 158 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,239 Speaker 1: They just jumped on something because I think Johnny Kraus 159 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: put that in their head and they just went with 160 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: that theory after that, I don't know. 161 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: In February nineteen eighty nine, another local named Johnny Krause 162 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: told his parole officer that he'd witness a group of 163 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: men beating up one man by the Dome Building that night, 164 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: which later became that he'd been offered three hundred thousand 165 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: dollars to murder Michael Frankie. Then that April, Kraus confessed 166 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: again to the carburglary theory, which sounds suspicious, but his 167 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: confessions contained elements not shared with the public, like the 168 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: location of the stab wounds, that he'd worn a tan jacket, 169 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: and that Michael yelped when he was stabbed, which aligned 170 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: with the custodian's account. He'd also repeated this confession to 171 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 2: his brother, mother, and girlfriend in front of authorities, and 172 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: soon we'll discuss why this lead was ignored in favor 173 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: of Frank Gabel. 174 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: Well, first, I got arrested in I think it was 175 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: June in Salem for driving an unauthorized motor vehicle. They 176 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: come in and wanted to talk to me then, and 177 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: we're asking all people that are inmates where you were. 178 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: And I told mom, I think I was home with 179 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: my wife, you know, and I was it, and they 180 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: asked times and he put the police report in there, 181 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: and that's what it says. 182 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: Mind you, this is four months later, so Frank wasn't sure, 183 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: and he said, I think I was home with my wife. 184 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: And as investigators continued to ignore Kraus's confession, they spoke 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: with other potential suspects, like Michael Kieran's, who deflected blame 186 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: from himself by claiming Frank Gable had confessed to him, 187 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: at which point the police went to the local media 188 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 2: to broadcast that Frank Gable, who they also alleged was 189 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: a police informant, was now their main suspect. And so 190 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: ten months in, they dragged Frank in again to ask 191 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 2: his whereabouts, and again Frank wasn't sure, so he offered 192 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: that perhaps he was with his friend Shelley Thomas. 193 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: They was interrogating me, telling me, oh, well, where else 194 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: could he have been? I said, well, if I wasn't there, 195 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: I was at Shelley's. And then they'd go, oh, Shelley says, 196 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: you wasn't there. Yeah. 197 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: The crazy thing is I think it would be difficult 198 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: for anybody to remember where they were. 199 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: Not ten months later. I mean I didn't even remember 200 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: telling like I read a bunch of police supports and 201 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: then we talked a bunch and like, you're not going 202 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: to know unless it was like somebody specific, like birthday 203 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: or you were at work and you knew that, and 204 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: that's what he said. When it was interiorgating, He's like, oh, well, 205 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 1: you said you were here, and you said you were there, 206 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: and I said no, you asked me where I possibly 207 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: would and I'm trying to help you figure out where 208 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: maybe I was. 209 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: But it turned out that they knew where Frank was. 210 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: On January seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, Frank and his wife 211 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 2: Janine didn't have a quiet night at home. They hosted 212 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 2: a pretty loud party, one that was so loud, in fact, 213 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: that their landlord issued them an eviction notice the next day. 214 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, we had that eviction notice. And that kathing on 215 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: that eviction notice is when the police asked me. He said, well, Frank, 216 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: what did you get the eviction notice for? And I 217 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: don't hesitate. I don't say, well, which one, because like 218 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: we had multiple ones we had won, and that was 219 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: that eviction notice. And they asked me that. I said, oh, 220 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and they said, well, who was all there? 221 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: I said all the neighbor kids through the play. These 222 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: people were all here, and blah blah blah. Then immediately 223 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: he realizes, I think that I know where I was 224 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: on that night because the key here is he doesn't 225 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: say that eviction notices for the night of the seventeenth, 226 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: which is the night of the murder. He just says, 227 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: what did you get the eviction notice for? And I 228 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: started telling now all these people, there's nine people at 229 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: this plate being thrown or mentioned this plate being thrown, 230 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: or the landlady, or my ex wife, or the two 231 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: neighbor kids, Lamontley, Robert Cornett, Kevin Walker were all there, everybody, 232 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: and I'm listed it off. And then he goes off 233 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: tape right there and says, oh, we're gonna go off tape, 234 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: and then comes back on a completely different subject. So 235 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: at that point he knew that I knew where I. 236 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: Was, and perhaps this explains why they're alleged main suspect 237 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: was let go once again. But then they picked up 238 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: Jody Swearingen, a team runaway with a juvenile record who 239 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: initially said she didn't know anything, but according to her 240 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: later recantations, trial testimony, and sworn Affidavid's, she was interrogated 241 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: twelve times, given twenty three polygraphs, after each one being 242 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: told she was lying and that she was going to 243 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 2: face criminal charges. So she told a story about how 244 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: her boyfriend Kapi had picked her up at the Dome Building, 245 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: which also housed the Oregon Psychiatric Hospital, and from his 246 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: car they had witnessed Frank stab Michael. So they arrested 247 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: Frank and tried to coerce a confession. 248 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: Well, they wanted me to take a polygraph. I'm telling 249 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: them I didn't do it. All these multiple detectives are 250 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: just interrogating you and calling you murder and talking bad 251 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: about your ex wife and your mom, telling you she's dying, 252 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: telling me I'm going to get to death penalty, all 253 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: kind of crap like that, trying to make me confess 254 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: to something. It was crazy, like they had me crying, 255 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: they break me down, and they got so mad because 256 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: I keep repeating over and over I didn't do it. 257 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: I don't know who did. I wasn't there. If you 258 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: read the police reports, it just says that I don't 259 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: know how many times I said that, And McCafferty got 260 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: mad and that's why he choked me because I kept 261 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: saying that and he goes, oh, you're going to cry 262 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: or something, and I said, oh, you want me to 263 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: cry like that. I was getting irritated with him, and 264 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: he choked me out I woke up doing the dry 265 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: tuning like this, and my shoulder was full of slobbery 266 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: because that's how long I was blacked out because right 267 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: here was all wet. And then Fred Akerman had said, oh, 268 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: well they had and argument, but he never really choked him. 269 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: He choked me on. I mean, if the guy didn't 270 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: choke me now here, I am sixty six years old, 271 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: why would I need to lie about the guy choking me. 272 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: I just think back to how confused you must have been, 273 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: knowing that you were innocent and not understanding why they 274 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: were so aggressively trying to get you to confess. 275 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, because all they do is ask you questions to 276 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: try to implicate you. Period. That's all they're doing. They're 277 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: not trying to like, go, oh it is this guy innocent. 278 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: They're just trying to implicate your ass. They don't care, 279 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: they don't have to have no evidence, nothing, They will 280 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: just come at you. 281 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: I want to just point back to two things. One 282 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: you mentioned the tape going off and the tape going 283 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: back on, And that's really important because they basically use 284 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: selective recordings to make it look like you were incriminating yourself. 285 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they would make statements then try to make 286 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: it sound like I said something that I didn't like 287 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: the God me statement. 288 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: The God me statement Frank's talking about was a moment 289 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: in this stop and Go recording in which Frank said 290 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: there were quote only two people who know who killed Frankie, 291 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: Frankie and God end quote and a detective pointed out 292 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: that Frankie couldn't know because he was dead. 293 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: And I said, well, I know this, I know and 294 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: God know. And then he jumps on and says, oh, 295 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: Fridian slip. And I said, well, what's that now. I'm 296 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: just a young country kid. I didn't know what the 297 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: hell Freudian slip man. And he's explaining the Freudian slip. 298 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: It's like, well, your mouth says something before your mind 299 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: catches it, and da da da, And so you just 300 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: confess to the murder that you said only you and 301 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: God know who did it. I said, no, I didn't 302 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: say that. I said, you cut me off with the 303 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: Friudian slip thing. 304 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: But it appears that even they knew that didn't amount 305 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: to a confession, since they dragged in a trove of 306 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: people from the drug scene in Salem looking to gather 307 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: statements and they use the same tactics that they used 308 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: on Frank and Jodi Swarringen. 309 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 4: So polygraphs are unreliable, they are not admissible in court, 310 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 4: they are impossible to verify, and they are subject completely 311 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 4: to the polygraph examiner's interpretation of the information that comes 312 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 4: out at the charts. Polygraphs are also really scary, and 313 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 4: they're intimidating, and for witnesses who have other crimes in 314 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 4: their backgrounds, for witnesses who are vulnerable in any number 315 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 4: of ways, witnesses who are being threatened with other crimes, 316 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 4: this crime, witnesses who are being threatened to have their 317 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 4: children taken away from them, any number of vulnerabilities can 318 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 4: be exploited. 319 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: Some of the stuff they did to some of these 320 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: witness and like say Shelley Thomas go over there, threaten 321 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: to arrest her take her child away if she didn't 322 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: bring the right story. Or John and Kelly Bender, they 323 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: got them turn on each other and make different stories. 324 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: And then the stories that they were developing, I mean 325 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: it was so like you can just see they weren't true. 326 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: So then they'd take them and change that story, like 327 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: take them out to the crime scene or give them 328 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: a polygraph. 329 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 4: So when you have a person who comes into a 330 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 4: polygraph in a heightened emotional state with a lot on 331 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 4: the line, can very easily figure out what answer they 332 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 4: think they're supposed to be giving to any question on 333 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 4: a polygraph. And none of these witnesses were polygraphed once. 334 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 4: They were polygraphed repeatedly, multiple times over the same day, 335 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 4: over in the middle of the night, over the course 336 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 4: of months. These witnesses were given polygraphs, and each time 337 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 4: they were told which questions they passed and which questions 338 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 4: they failed. 339 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: So they were using them as a training tool. 340 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And so if any person could figure out, oh, 341 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 4: I failed this particular question on a polygraph, and my 342 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 4: freedom is at stake, let me just give a different 343 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 4: answer next time I'm asked a similar question. And you 344 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 4: can see the progression every single witness. You can see 345 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 4: the progression and the questions they're asked and how their 346 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: answers change over time. 347 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 2: Like what happened over Jody's swearing gens twenty three polygraphs. 348 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: Jody said they took her to the crime scene like 349 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: thirteen times, told her there were cigarette butts on the ground, 350 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: what kind they were? Just so they could form a 351 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: later story. Said, oh, well, there were some cigarette butts 352 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: over here. Do you smoke camels? And she says yeah, Jody, 353 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: she's a sixteen year old runaway and you're taking her 354 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: out of Hillcrest giving her a nine hundred dollars in 355 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: cash at sixteen seventeen years old. What do you think 356 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: she's going to go do with it? She's gonna go 357 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: buy myth and fetomine and hang out with the meth heads. 358 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: Like her boyfriend Kathy Hardin, who came in and backed 359 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: up her story that they had actually seen Frank Gable 360 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 2: stab Michael Frankie in the parking lot. And investigators visited 361 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: other vulnerable people from the Salem drug scene who knew Frank, 362 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: like Earl Childers, who claimed to have seen Frank driving 363 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: near the scene that night and that Frank later confessed 364 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: to him while they were doing meth. Then there was 365 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: Mark Gesner, who claimed that Frank had dropped by his 366 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: house that night and asked him to get rid of 367 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: a bag of clothes. And then Kevin Walker said that 368 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 2: Frank had confessed to him the following day. 369 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: Now, I've never ever had any real bones with Kevin 370 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: Walker ever like I liked him, he liked me, I 371 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: thought him or Mark Gist's dumb ass. And I didn't 372 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: even meet Mark gust until then. First came to my 373 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: house was that viction. Notice that's the first night. So 374 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: how was I ever going to his house and bring 375 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: him a damn bag of clothes or whatever he said 376 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: and throwing it off a freaking bridge or a river. 377 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: That's the crazy part about Kevin Walker and Mark Gesner. 378 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 2: On the night of the murder. They were both at 379 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: Frank's house party that got him evicted, So they should 380 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: have been alibi witnesses. 381 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: Like every one of them had some kind of crime 382 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: against him, like charge like Guesner's federal charges and guns, drugs, 383 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: and then like Earl Childers Jeanie, all of them. 384 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: Frank's wife should have been an alibi witness too, But 385 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: somewhere during this investigation, she and Frank had a huge 386 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: falling out and she had lost custody of her daughter. 387 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: So investigators promised to get her daughter back if she 388 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: said there was no house party on January seventeenth, but 389 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: rather that she was home with her daughter while Frank 390 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: was out somewhere in the car in addition, there were 391 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: Daniel Walsh and Linda Perkins who also claimed that Frank 392 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: had made vague, incriminating statements. 393 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 4: The thing that sets Frank's case apart from most of 394 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 4: the other cases that I've worked on is just the 395 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: sheer volume of the misconduct. There are some cases and 396 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 4: small departments where one detective coerces one witness into providing 397 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 4: a false identification and the whole investigation is wrapped up 398 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 4: in twenty four hours. Frank was antagonized by law enforcement 399 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 4: for months and months before he was ultimately charged, and 400 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 4: law enforcement went to such astonishing lengths to tie up 401 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 4: any possible loose end and really perfect the false narratives 402 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 4: that they were putting forward. And they weren't just relying 403 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 4: on one person to provide a false inculpatory statement. 404 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: They'd amassed a web of at least nine liars, one 405 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: of whom Michael Kieran's, who testified at the grand jury, 406 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 2: recanted on the eve of trial in May nineteen ninety one. 407 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: So the state moved ahead with what they thought were 408 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: eight witnesses, most of whom had allegedly heard a confession 409 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: or should have been alibi witnesses. But Capy Harten testified 410 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: that he and Jody Swearingen had actually seen Frank stab 411 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 2: Michael in the parking lot, and then Jody Swearingen took 412 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: the stand. Yet she decided to recant, saying that neither 413 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: she nor Cappy had seen anything, and they pulled out 414 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: her grand jury testimony, but she insisted that she had 415 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: been pressured to lie. 416 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: So. 417 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: In addition to the states now seven witnesses, some of 418 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: the investigators testified about various things Frank said that were 419 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: presented as incriminating, like the god me statement. 420 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: The Freudian slip thing. That was a big thing in 421 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: my trial because I said, well, I know this, I 422 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: know and God know that. He jumps on and says, oh, 423 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: Friudian slip, you just confess to the murder. I said, no, 424 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I said you cut me off 425 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: with the Freudian slip thing. But in trial they told 426 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: the jury that I said, oh, only me and God 427 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: know who did. 428 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: They also presented Frank's confusion over his whereabouts as deceit. 429 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: It made it sounds of the jury like, oh, well 430 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: he said he was here, then he said he was there, 431 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: And the whole time they had my alibi, and they 432 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: hit it, and they literally just hit the freaking eviction. Notice, 433 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: my attorney does nothing with it. 434 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: And even though Frank's trial council called his landlord to 435 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 2: testify about the party on January seventeenth that resulted in 436 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 2: the eviction, the defense failed to use that information to 437 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,479 Speaker 2: impeach Kevin Walker, Mark Gesner, and Janine Gable, all of 438 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: whom were at that party. The defense also tried to 439 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 2: raise Johnny Krause's confession, but the state's evidence rules barred 440 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: it from trial. So, with so many unimpeached witnesses incriminating Frank, 441 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: the verdict came back guilty, and then the jury voted 442 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: again on his sentence, life without the possibility of parole 443 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: or death. 444 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: I was two votes away from the death penalty. So 445 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: that's like ten people thought I wasn't worthy to live 446 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: and then they give you life without parol. I never 447 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: thought I was going to get out. As I went 448 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: through prison, I studied law myself. I did a lot 449 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: of classes. You know, then once you read the stuff 450 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: and you see what happened, oh the crap, and then 451 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: you really understand what happened and things they were doing. 452 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: What kept you going all those years against all odds. 453 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if I was really 454 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: like going. I just was like living, just trying to survive. 455 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: I actually tried to commit suicide a couple of times, 456 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 1: but I didn't have the courage. 457 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you didn't make that choice, because now 458 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: you have a wonderff. 459 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: Different for me. You know, I'm thankful I to do 460 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: nothing stupid, I am too. 461 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: You know what's crazy too about this is the amount 462 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: of support that you did have, not just from Michael 463 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: Frankie's brothers, Kevin and Pat, but also you had almost 464 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: the who's who of journalists in Oregon constantly writing about 465 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: your case. You would Phil Stamford from the Oregonian, You 466 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: had Steve Jackson from the Statesman Journal, in addition to 467 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: Nigel Jaquis from willam At Week, and then of course 468 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: Jim Reddin from the Portland Tribune. Whereas so many of 469 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: these wrongful convictions are waiting for the attention, your case 470 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: had the attention and still because of as we've talked about, 471 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: the forces above and beyond your control. 472 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, going to let it am. 473 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: Not at state level anyway, unfortunately, frank State remedies were 474 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: not exhausted until two thousand and seven, when he could 475 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: move on to filing a federal habeas where proper attention 476 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: might be paid not only to the confession of Johnny Krause, 477 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: but also some recantations, starting with Kevin Walker in nineteen 478 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 2: ninety three, who admitted that he had been at the 479 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: Gables House party on January seventeenth, which also impeached Janine 480 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 2: Gable and Mark Gesner. And then in two thousand and five, 481 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: Kapy Hardin swore that after he was repeatedly questioned, polygraphed, threatened, 482 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: and told that Frank had informed on him that he 483 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: had decided to align with JODI's false statement. But Frank's 484 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: federal proceedings didn't get traction until Frank's attorney, Nell Brown 485 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 2: came on board in twenty fourteen. 486 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: Before Nel Brown coming on, like, I had other attorneys 487 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: and I had to get some of them fired disbarred 488 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: because they were just selling out and not doing no 489 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: job for me at all. I was tired of taking 490 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: advantage of me. 491 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: How did you get connected with now? 492 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: Well, now just got a pointed through the federal defenders 493 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: and we just kind of clicked right out of the gate, 494 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: and then like she seen all the stuff, and then 495 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: she believed in it and started really championing my case. 496 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: You know, in between my wife and all the investigative 497 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: stuff she did and research on legal stuff she did, 498 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: we put together a case. 499 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: The wife he just mentioned is Rainy, who he married 500 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 2: while he was still inside. She was and is still 501 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: his fiercest advocate. And so by twenty fourteen, there were 502 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: four more recantations, Jody Swarringen, Janine Gable, Daniel Walch, and 503 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 2: Michael Kieran's. In addition, Mark Gesner and Linda Perkins were 504 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 2: impeached by the other recantations or witnesses to the circumstances 505 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: of their statements, which just left Earle Childers who is 506 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: now just not sure about what he said he saw 507 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: or heard. And all of the witnesses described the same 508 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: coercive tactics, for which the defense hired an expert to 509 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: testify about how those tactics can lead to false statements. 510 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: They knew, I was, there's no way you couldn't know. 511 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: The eviction, noticed the phone records and all the stuff 512 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: that don't match their bullshit stories. I Mean, there was 513 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: just so many red flags along the. 514 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 2: Way, including the biggest red flag, Johnny Krause. So after 515 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: his credible April nineteen eighty nine confession, that June he 516 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: gave more information involving a conspiracy among state officials who 517 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: tried to hire him to kill Michael Frankie to keep 518 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: him from exposing their prison drug operation, And in the 519 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: following months other witnesses came forward identifying another man named 520 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: Timothy Natividad as participating in the murder as well at 521 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: the behest of the same cabal. But most telling was 522 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: in November nineteen nine, Kraus was offered immunity from prosecution 523 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: for making alleged fault statements to the police. So unless 524 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: he went on records saying that his previous confessions involving 525 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: the state officials was false, they were going to prosecute 526 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: him for it. So he accepted immunity and went away quietly. 527 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: So the court allowed all of this procedurally barred evidence 528 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: to be heard based on Frank's actual innocence claim, and 529 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: the ruling finally came down in twenty nineteen. 530 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like out on the yard and then 531 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: I talked to my wife and I said, well, I'm 532 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: going to go in. It was like I worked out 533 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: in the yard, and so I go in and shower 534 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: and hanging outside the tier because like a lot of 535 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: the guards, you know, they liked me, said they let 536 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: me run around a lot. So I thought, well, I'm 537 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: gonna jump on the phone real quick and call my wife. 538 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: So I went around the phone and she said, I'll 539 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: be there Friday to get you. I said what she said. Yeah, 540 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: Judge corst it is just with your favor. You're one 541 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: hundred present exonerated. You just do nothing but cry. I mean, 542 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: I just broke down. It was crazy hearing that. You know, 543 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: you kind of believed it would come, but you just 544 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: didn't never really want to hope that much where it 545 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: would crush you, you know what I mean, you didn't 546 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: want to hope that much. 547 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: Judge Acosta's ruling rachel He didn't just overturn Frank's conviction. 548 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: He called it constitutionally invalid, ordered the entire record expunged, 549 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 2: and barred the state from ever trying him again. 550 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 4: It is very difficult to get the kind of relief 551 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 4: that was granted in this case. As a general matter, 552 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 4: I mean, there are so many people who they never 553 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 4: get out they never get the relief. So the fact 554 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 4: that Judge Acosta acknowledged the misconduct, that he acknowledged this 555 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 4: signal nificance of the evidence in the case is no 556 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: small deal. 557 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know, the state is still challenging Frank's 558 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: innocence despite multiple court siding with him. 559 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an interesting posture that the certificate of innocence 560 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 4: case is in because it shows the competing interests at 561 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 4: play here. And so you have the State of Oregon, 562 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 4: and you have the organ Attorney General and the governor, 563 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 4: and then you have the individual defendants and the wrongful 564 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,479 Speaker 4: conviction case, and you have the Oregon State Police. And 565 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 4: it shows that their competing interests here and that doing 566 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 4: the right thing is not the only interest at stake. 567 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,719 Speaker 2: So even though their certificate of innocence is a separate 568 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: suit from the civil matters, it might have an impact 569 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: on the dynamic and their other proceedings. 570 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 4: I'm sure communication is happening on the back end about 571 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 4: how the wrongful conviction case would be impacted by a 572 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 4: certificate of innocence. So we want everybody to do the 573 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 4: right thing, but these cases have a lot of working 574 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 4: parts and a lot of it is political and unfortunately, 575 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 4: you can't force someone to do the right thing. 576 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in an ideal world, people would acknowledge mistakes, 577 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: take responsibility, make amends. That's what accountability really should look like. Frank, 578 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,959 Speaker 2: you and I have had conversations about accountability, and I 579 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 2: know that. You know you've been compensated just to the 580 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: exact amount that Oregon they thought they had to compensate you. 581 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: But you filed a suit now against twenty four officers 582 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: who helped build the case against you and fabricate evidence. 583 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 2: Why is that accountability so important? 584 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: They just shouldn't be allowed to do this to somebody. 585 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: It's like, and it's not just me, there's many. It's 586 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: like they just keep doing it and there's no accountability. 587 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: They need to change the laws, like something like you 588 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: can just take a person's life for thirty years. Make 589 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: me basically live in hell, you know, watching people get murdered, 590 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: stab shot, you know, riots every day, and then they think, oh, 591 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: throw some money at them, and I don't make it better. 592 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 1: I guess I got a little bit of money. I'm 593 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: not much happier, you know. I still every day I'm 594 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: in turmoil. Every day I have nightmares about prison violence 595 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: and people getting stabbed and you know their throats cut 596 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: or shot. 597 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 2: Well, you told me something about the doorbell ringing. 598 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, any well, certain noises say like somebody drops 599 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: a broom and it cracks on the floor. I mean 600 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: I instantly like get in a chemical adrenaline thing in 601 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: my throat and my mind, you know, goes right back 602 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: to prison and you know, people getting shot. It just 603 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: immediately reminds you of, you know, that freaking nightmare. 604 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: In terms of preventing this nightmare from happening in the future, 605 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: what do you think needs to be done in terms 606 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: of the system. You and I talked about the fact 607 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: that you need to go to school longer to be 608 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: a barber. 609 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it takes longer to be a barber than 610 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: go to be at the academy at the state police office. 611 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: Ten weeks, you know, and then they're deciding your life 612 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: where they lock you up, what their constitutional rights is. 613 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: Come on, you can't tell me you know enough about 614 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 1: the law and the constitution in ten weeks and look 615 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: what happened. Just retrain them all, get rid of all 616 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: the buddy buddy crap, you know, cousins and brothers in 617 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: there to cover each other's back. 618 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: What to you, Rachel, would accountability look like, not just 619 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 2: in this case, but you know, perhaps in wrongful convictions 620 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 2: in general. 621 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 4: I think one of the things that I wish would 622 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 4: happen in our cases generally is I wish somebody would 623 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 4: admit what they did, and I wish that they would say, look, 624 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 4: we got it wrong, and we're really sorry, and we're 625 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 4: going to fix it, and we're not going to challenge 626 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 4: your innocence petition, and we're not going to resist giving 627 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 4: you relief and giving the accountability that you're seeking. It 628 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 4: happens every so often, but I think that the impulse 629 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 4: for law enforcement is to protect their convictions no matter what, 630 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 4: even when they are so obviously false. And I think 631 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 4: there's probably some level of you know, if we admit 632 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 4: that we got it wrong, then what does that mean 633 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 4: for the rest of our convictions, and what does that 634 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 4: mean for our belief in the criminal legal system generally? 635 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 4: And so you have to just dig in your heels 636 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 4: and say we didn't get it wrong. And I wish 637 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 4: that that didn't happen. I wish that folks were willing 638 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 4: to really reflect on what they did and acknowledge when 639 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 4: they did it wrong. 640 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 2: That's wild because frank in a way, when this all 641 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: went down, that's what you wanted. You wanted that acknowledgment, 642 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 2: that apology. 643 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: I think the apology means more to me than the 644 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: money man. Look me in the face and apologize, you know, 645 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: it's simple thing. There should be. What kind of character 646 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: do you have? You know, if you can't look another 647 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: man in a face and apologize when you did something 648 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: wrong and admit it, you know, and it's like people 649 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: don't care, you know. It's like they put you in 650 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: prison and they throw you some money and say, oh, 651 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: we're sorry, but that doesn't help. You know, my mom 652 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: and dad died when I was in there. All my 653 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: uncles passed away. Get out and a year later my 654 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: brother dies. A year after that, my sister, you know, 655 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,919 Speaker 1: my two of my best friends die. Since I've bet out, 656 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: it's like, you know why I even get out sometimes 657 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: and so every day you wake up thinking, well, why 658 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: did I have to suffer all this? And why did 659 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: my family have to die? And why did all these 660 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: other people have to go this? Like the Frankie family, 661 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,959 Speaker 1: they don't have justice yet, you know, And I'm out 662 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: here and you know, we're pretty good friends, and so 663 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to like not celebrate like I'm free and 664 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: you know, I got a settlement while they're suffering. 665 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,800 Speaker 2: That's the bittersweet thing of this. You know, the Frankie 666 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 2: brothers have championed you from the beginning. They knew that 667 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 2: you didn't kill their brother. But you're right, they've had 668 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: no justice. Yeah, it's still an unsolved murder, and unfortunately, 669 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem that there's a lot of interest in 670 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 2: solving it, which is an injustice in and of itself. 671 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 2: They should want to know who killed a high ranking 672 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,240 Speaker 2: public official. They should want to have the right person 673 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: health account. 674 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think I told them that in the interview. 675 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: I said, look, there's a murder out there running around, 676 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: and you're coming at me and my knowledgy list join 677 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: a cross. Are he's still out there? Because I have 678 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: no idea. 679 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 2: I have some theories. We can talk about it. 680 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: After Oh I have no idea. It's like, oh, grip 681 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: all right. 682 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 2: Last question for both of you, Rachel, what do you 683 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: hope people take away from Frank's story. 684 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 4: A lot of folks think, you know, this could happen 685 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 4: to someone else, but it would never happen to me, 686 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 4: but it can happen to anybody. And until police are 687 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 4: held accountable for what they're doing, and until it is 688 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 4: crystal clear that you cannot prosecute someone without probable cause 689 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 4: and you can't make up evidence to support your theory, 690 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,240 Speaker 4: it has to work the other way around. You follow 691 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 4: the evidence, not the person, that that this work will 692 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 4: never stop and that they're innocent people in prison, and 693 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 4: there needs to be a concerted effort to uncover all 694 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 4: of the wrongful convictions and get folks out of prison 695 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 4: who are innocent. It is such an injustice that this 696 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,720 Speaker 4: happens to even one person, and people need to understand 697 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 4: in law enforcement needs to understand that this can't. 698 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 2: Keep happening right beautifully put, Frank, do you want to 699 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 2: add anything to that? No? 700 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: Oh, gied. 701 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 2: If you could sit down with anyone who doubted you, 702 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,879 Speaker 2: what would you want them to know and what would 703 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 2: you want them to take away from your experience? 704 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: I'd want to know that there's just because you've got 705 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: a shitty live doesn't mean you don't have value, And 706 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: don't send a person that you think don't have no 707 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 1: value to present wrongfully convicted. 708 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 709 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 2: to this and all LoVa for Good podcasts one week 710 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: early and add free by subscribing to LoVa for Good 711 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 2: Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'd like to thank our production 712 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 2: team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as executive 713 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 2: producers Jason Vlahm, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn. 714 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time 715 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 716 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 717 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 718 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 2: at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 719 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 720 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported 721 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: in this show are accurate. 722 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in 723 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 2: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect 724 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 2: those of Lava for Good