1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: My rent. Wow, because of my income. Well, I know 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: rents in general have gone off in the last two years. 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: It's just been outrageous. I work with vulnerable population and 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: I I deal with rents that they have to deal with. 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: It's been extremely hard. It's the big take from Bloomberg 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: News and I Heart Radio. I'm West Cosova today. People 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: all over are struggling to afford their rent. How did 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: it get so high? Inflation means the price of everything 9 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: is going up. But it's a good bet your rent 10 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: has risen even faster in the past few years. And 11 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: not just in cities like New York where it's always 12 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: been crazy. Rent increases are far outpacing wages for many 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: people in the U US and around the world. Slowed 14 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: down there for a bit during the thick of the pandemic, 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: but then it came roaring back. Why is this happening 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: and is there any relief insight? My Bloomberg colleague Preshanko 17 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: pol reports on real estate and he joins me now 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: from Boston, Prishan, thanks for being here. Great to be here, Prishan. 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: I think the quickest way to lose an hour of 20 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: your time is to go up to somebody and say, so, 21 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: how do you feel about your rent? Everyone seems to 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: be complaining that their rent is so much higher than 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: it used to be. We used to think about New 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: York and San Francisco, other big cities here the amazing 25 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: stories about how much people were paying. But now medium 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: sized cities, small town's rent is just crazy high. Exactly 27 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: why is that and how did this happen? Yeah, well, 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, part of it is that the for sale 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: market got so hot, especially during the past few years 30 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, so a lot of people couldn't buy, 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: and so that meant that relatively wealthy people, people who 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: were wealthy enough to purchase, were sort of shoved back 33 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: into the rental market, which became a really crowded place. 34 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,839 Speaker 1: So you ended up with like the kind of rent 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: growth that we've never seen in this country before. I mean, 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: typically rents go up maybe a few percentage points a 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: year or something like that, but we were like seeing 38 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: double digit growth and all over the country, not just 39 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: in the land of Wall Street and Silkin Valley. This 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: was happening in the heartland. One of our colleagues, Alex Hanzi, 41 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: recently wrote a story that said that more than half 42 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: of renters reported that their rent had gone up by 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: a twelve hundred dollars or more in the last year alone. Yeah, 44 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: that's nuts. I mean, I I've done stories throughout this, 45 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: and I remember just talking to people during the worst 46 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: of it. It wasn't so long ago, maybe a year 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: year ago or so. They were struggling, you know, in Florida, 48 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: for example, people were just struggling to even to find 49 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: a place to live. In Florida was a place where 50 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: you could usually find a place for a reasonable amount 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: of money outside of saying like Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Yeah, 52 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: it was one of the appeals of you know, living 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: down in Florida, right. I mean, so these people were 54 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: getting on waiting lists like one after the other, and 55 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: they would have to pay kind of application fee each time, 56 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: and they were racking up, you know, maybe a thousand 57 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: dollars or more sometimes an application fees just to have 58 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: an opportunity to potentially have an apartment. They mean, you know, 59 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: I guess the landlords in those cases were pocketing that money, 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: but it was a huge mess for shot. While we 61 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: were talking through this episode, our producer's end up said 62 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: that a friend of hers living in Brooklyn was going 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: through this very thing. So she gave him a ring, 64 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: and here's what he had to say. My name is 65 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: not Long tens In and I am from Queen. I 66 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: currently live in Bushwick. Since I moved into this apartment 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, I like got the pandemic discount that 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people were also getting. And it was 69 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: one of those situations where it was like the rent 70 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: is initially it was twenty six, but we're going to 71 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: give you one month off, so it sort of came 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: down to like twenty four or something. So that's what 73 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: we signed on twenty four initially. After you're living here, Um, 74 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: we got the new like lease with updated rent, and 75 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: then the landlord basically hyped it up all the way 76 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: up to twenty nine. Yeah, so we were just like, 77 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: that is a lot of money. I like grew up 78 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: in like a very like horror immigrant family where we 79 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: still sort of like it's like it's hard to pay rent, 80 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: you know. And yeah, I mean there's just a lot 81 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: of people that are coming in that can't afford to 82 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: stay here, and then it's ultimately the people that just 83 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: have to move. So you talked about how people who 84 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: would have bought a house but couldn't because of the 85 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: financial squeeze during COVID, uh stuck with rentals and that 86 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: kind of lowered the supply. What are some of the 87 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: other reasons that have caused is because the increase in 88 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: rent oversay the last ten years has so far outpaced 89 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: wages and even outpaste inflation. Yeah, I mean, like part 90 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: of this is the fact that we've had a lot 91 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: of construction more recently, but we've had a lack of 92 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: home construction in America for a long time, you know, 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: of all kinds, so it just hasn't kept up with 94 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: what's needed. The other thing is that a lot of 95 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: the construction we did have was sort of focused on 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: the wealthier people, and there really hasn't been very much 97 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: built for the people really need it. There's that there's 98 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: also this idea that you know, people were leaving their 99 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: parents basements and roommate situations and striking out on their own. 100 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: And you also had this kind of demographic boom right 101 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: of young people all seeking you know, to begin their lives. 102 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: There's just a lot of demand. And and then let's 103 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: throw one more thing on top of it, which is COVID, Right, 104 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: and COVID kind of lit a fire under people. It 105 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: wasn't just that people were rushing to buy homes in 106 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: the suburbs. People were just rushing to make changes of 107 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: all kinds. And that could be just you know, finding 108 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: a job elsewhere, somewhere cheaper, you know, in Phoenix or 109 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: Tampa or you know, Austin is not very cheap anymore, 110 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: but it's cheap, you know, if you were living in 111 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: New York. So a lot of these moves really added 112 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: to that demand. There's a perception I heard a lot 113 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: from people that landlords are taking advantage of what you're 114 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: describing here, that there is a shortage supply and there's 115 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: an increase in demand to raise rents much higher than 116 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: they you know, ordinarily could have. And there's a certain 117 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: amount of gouging going on, just people opportunistically raising rents 118 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: because what are people gonna do. Is that something that 119 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: you actually see bearing in data or is that just 120 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: something people kind of suspect. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean 121 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: these kinds of rent increases are just astronomical. I mean 122 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: some of them they look like mistakes, you know, like 123 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: increases and this is like Austin and just these are 124 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: crazy and and these are sort of the bulk of 125 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: these increases are going to be actually for new leases, 126 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: not for existing leases, but people who even had renewals. 127 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: We're seeing crazy jumps and it was shocking to them, right, 128 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: But they didn't have much of a choice because where 129 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: are they going to go. Another thing that seems to 130 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: be contributing to this is real estate companies, sometimes financial institutions, 131 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: buying up a lot of rental property simply to make 132 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: money on it in a way that hasn't been done before. Yeah, 133 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of the institutionalization of the American 134 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: housing market. Right. This really was a byproduct of the 135 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: Great Financial Crisis and the massive housing crash and foreclosure 136 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: wave that we experienced starting in two thousands seven or so, 137 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: and you ended up with just a whole lot of 138 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: distressed properties. And you know, like White Knights, private equity 139 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: firms showed up starting around and they kind of hoovered 140 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: up all these for closed properties that we're sitting vacant 141 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: and disrepair, often bank owned, and they kind of got 142 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: the housing market moving again because they bought those properties 143 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: up and turned them into rentals, which was a new thing. 144 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: You had a sort of a whole new class here. 145 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: You had mom and pop landlords in the past that 146 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: it owned single family homes. We never had sort of 147 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: institutional players that were doing this. They were they bought 148 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: apartment buildings, not sort of scattered site single family rentals. 149 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: So by doing this they actually allowed home prices to 150 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: start rising. But what happened is they did this so 151 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: aggressively in some places that they ended up kind of 152 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: getting rid of a lot of the homes that might 153 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: have been affordable to first time buyers, and you ended 154 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: up with this severe shortage of housing. So it's the 155 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: opposite problem in prices just kept growing building off of 156 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: the shortage, and it got worse and worse and worse 157 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: and worse over ten years. I see here in Washington, 158 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: d C. Seeing New York, Chicago, a lot of other cities, 159 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: a lot of construction of rental apartments to meet this demand, 160 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: and yet they seem to be really expensive apartments. The 161 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: rents are really really high in these places. Who do 162 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: they think it's going to afford them, because people are 163 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: already struggling to pay existing rents. Is their demand for 164 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: these really expensive places. The issue now is that there's 165 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: a ton of high end construction of multi family homes. 166 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: It might be the highest in at least ten years 167 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: that rental homes that will deliver this year, right, And 168 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: these were homes that were built before inflation took off 169 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: and when there was a lot of demand, and now 170 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: things kind of changed once they were already committed, kind 171 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: of like a giant like cruise turning around a giant 172 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: cruise ship, you know, they have to make decisions like 173 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: so far in advance, so they can't pivot very easily. 174 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: People believed that there would be no end to this 175 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: kind of boom and rental demand because people have to 176 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: live somewhere, right, So even if the first sale market 177 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: weaken that that would only be good news for rentals 178 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: because yeah, more people will be renting. But I think 179 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people are just kind of not leaving 180 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: their apartments. They're staying in place, you know. And one 181 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: reason that's happened is because where they're going to move. 182 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: So if they move somewhere else, there's now such a 183 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: What they were charging for these new leases for you know, 184 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: empty apartments is so much higher than what you'd pay 185 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: if you just stayed put. So a lot of people 186 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: just stayed put. The other thing is that a lot 187 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: of people are nervous about the economy. So when you're nervous, 188 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: you don't really want to make big moves, right, So 189 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: there's that. There's also the fact that the cost of 190 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 1: everything has gone up, you know, from groceries to commuting 191 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: to everything else. So for renters, their budgets are squeezed, 192 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: and again that's another reason to kind of not make 193 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: a big move. Preshian, please stay with me. We'll talk 194 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: about what renters can expect in the year ahead after 195 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: the break. Prishan, We're talking about the U S rental market, 196 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: but rents are high all over the world. Our producer 197 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: in London went out to hear what people there had 198 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: to say. So our rent was up in October, so 199 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: we're running for a year, and then they were like 200 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: trying to increase it. We're like, come on, we've been 201 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: here for a while, you know us, please half it, 202 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: and then we did so like it's out not too bad, 203 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: I guess. So I'm from Greece and I rent here 204 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: in London, but I mean, like I'm a landlord as well. 205 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: I mean I would raise my rents. I mean, of course, absolutely, 206 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: the students I'm living with their on like k Yeah, 207 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: so if it increased, there's no way we could collectively 208 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: afford it at all. Like we're on the brink right now. 209 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, subsistence living. Rather than saying I think they're 210 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: all doing well, it seems like they're all doing the 211 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: bare minimum. I get that kind of vibe from all 212 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: the landlords I've lived, So they just do the least 213 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: they can because they know that there's high demand property here. 214 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: For sure. You've spelled out this, you know, pretty challenging 215 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: situation renders. I think in real life people are really 216 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: feeling what you're describing. Is there any relief in sight? Yes, 217 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: great news for renters this three Maybe they're a year. 218 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: Landlords have a problem all of a sudden, which is 219 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: that there's a ton of multi family construction underway and 220 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: a lot of these units will deliver this year. And 221 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: these tend to be middle or high end units in 222 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: places like Seattle and Austin and Atlanta, but also in 223 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: the suburbs and in the middle of nowhere. There's just 224 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: a ton of construction of all kinds, you know, maybe 225 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: a larger amount than we've seen in many, many years. 226 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, you have landlords who 227 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: are gonna have to start dropping their rents in general 228 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: because their tenants are gonna start bolting and looking for 229 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: other opportunities. So as rents go down elsewhere and the 230 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: market starts to become a little more competitive, it's going 231 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: to be the landlords who have to be more competitive 232 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: as opposed to buyers being exactly. Yes, so it's a 233 00:13:54,280 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: real turnaround. Some cities have required that new construction set 234 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: aside a certain amount of housing for people who have 235 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: lower incomes. Has that helped it all? What do we 236 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: see happening there? This is sort of the market solution 237 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: to the problem, which is that you require, like, if 238 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: you're going to build something, you have to include a 239 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: percentage that would be affordable. The trouble there is, you know, 240 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: it just sort of gives an incentive for the landlord 241 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: to actually boost the rents for every other unit to 242 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: sort of make up for it. So I'd say the 243 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: jury is out, but that is sort of a major 244 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: way that they've been trying to do it. There's also 245 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: like various kinds of subsidies, right the low income housing 246 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: tax credits and things like that, So you end up 247 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of not enough let's say, not enough 248 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: affordable housing. So I think it's really hard for people 249 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: on the lower end of the spectrum right now to 250 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: find a place to live, and that leads to instability 251 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: people you know, living in a illegal apartment and a basement, 252 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: or or crowding in way too many people, or living 253 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: in their car, or you know, in a tent or 254 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: in a homeless shelter. This is sort of the result. 255 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: And we're already seeing the data show that rank collections, 256 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: whereas you're not seeing this for moderate or hire income rentals. 257 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: People are paying their rent, but on the lower end 258 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, the rent collections have have dropped in 259 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, meaning that people just aren't 260 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: able to afford to pay their rent exactly. And do 261 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: you think that the relief you describe happening at the 262 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: high in the middle part of the market in the 263 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: coming year will also bring some relief at the lower 264 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: end of the market. It takes time, because you know, 265 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: the way this works is like you build the high 266 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: end unit and then ten years later it's not such 267 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: a great unit anymore, and then that moves to the 268 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: moderate and then eventually, you know, thirty years down, and 269 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: that's subsidized housing or whatever, you know, and making up 270 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: the time frame there. But it doesn't happen instantly. So 271 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: there may be some help, right, but it's not enough. 272 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we were just talking earlier about how people 273 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: saying that rents went up twelve hundred bucks last year. 274 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: Do you think a year from now we're going to 275 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: see the story that says people say their rents went 276 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: down meaningfully? I think so. Yeah. I really hate predicting 277 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: the future because you know, as we've learned during these 278 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: past few years, that we always tend to be wrong. 279 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: With all this construction happening, it does seem like there 280 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: has to be a change, right, And if the economy 281 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: turned south, that would only make that more true because 282 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: if people start losing jobs, you know, people can't afford 283 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: these sky high rents. They just went up way too fast. 284 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: So in a way, the landlords are to blame for 285 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: allowing the rents to get as high as they did, right, 286 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: because it means that they have further to fall. Shanko, Paul, 287 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking with me today. All right, 288 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: thank you, after the break. What's happening in the rest 289 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: of the world, My colleague Neil Callinan joins me now 290 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: from London. He's going to give us a broader look 291 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: at turmoil and all kinds of real estate all over 292 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: the world. Neil, thanks so much for being here. Thanks, 293 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: it's good to charge you. So now we've been talking 294 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: about rents and hearts difficult for people to afford housing 295 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: a lot of parts of the world. You have written 296 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: a story that takes a big step back and looks 297 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: across real estate markets, in particular commercial real estate markets. 298 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: Can you first just start by telling us when we're 299 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: talking about the commercial real estate market, what are we 300 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: talking about. We're talking about everything that's not a house 301 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: that you own effectively. So you can actually include multi 302 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: family in some jurisdictions and not so. If you live 303 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: in an apartment block that can be actually classified as 304 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: a commercial building. But for most people, it's the office 305 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: they go to, it's the shops that they go to, 306 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: it's the strip mall that they stop off and on 307 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: the way home, and it's those assets that combine with 308 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: how they make actually propertly the biggest asset in the world. 309 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: And you know, you've been talking about rental housing and 310 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: the cost of rents and people struggling with Part of 311 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: that comes out of the global financial crisis, when the 312 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: credit crunch meant that people build fewer houses and a 313 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: lot of home builders and multifamily developers went bust. So 314 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: there was a kind of shortage of house building during 315 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: the bad times that didn't apply everywhere, and in fact, 316 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: in some countries like China, obviously there was a huge 317 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: amount of house building, mainly aimed at buyers. And now 318 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: we're going to start to see the outfall of that 319 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: because a lot of the valuations and a lot of 320 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: the house prices that people have paid, and this also 321 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: goes for the office blocks and the shopping malls and 322 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: so forth, are based off low interest rates, and so 323 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: once the cost of paying that loan goes up, then 324 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: the values start to fall because nobody else is willing 325 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: to pay what you paid for. And this is the 326 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: pain that we're starting to see come true now, and 327 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: in many cases it won't come true in data until 328 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: the second half of the year, particularly for the bank 329 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: lending books. But already, for example, you're seeing commercial property 330 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: values in the UK down about sevent in the US 331 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: there not about fifteen percent. They may go another ten 332 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: percent this year so we're seeing big, big value declines 333 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: starting to come true in the property market. And you've 334 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: taken a look at the property market around the world, 335 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: and it seems that there really is this global trend 336 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: that there are very few bright spots when you look 337 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: around at what's happening with property. It's about out there. 338 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: You know, malls have had a really really tough time 339 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: for a few years. That's going to continue. Just seemed 340 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: like they were starting to get back on their feet 341 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: last year, and then obviously interest rates wrote so much 342 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: that in many cases they've made them on investable. And 343 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: then i'll it's blocked to work from home trend that's 344 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: really really really hitting off its values in the tech 345 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: cities in particular, so from Dublin to San Francisco and 346 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: in London as well to an extent. But then mainly 347 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: it's a kind of like secondary offices, by which we 348 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: mean like lower quality ones in not the best locations 349 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: where maybe they were struggling to find a tenant in 350 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: the first place, and maybe they don't the company hasn't 351 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: been growing very quickly. Those are the buildings that values 352 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: where really you're going to see the stress, not just pain, 353 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: but actually distress starting to come true, and is all 354 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: of this happening now just as a result of the 355 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: general global downturn and kind of the end of cheap money. Yeah, 356 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean for real estate is a real double whammy, right, 357 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: because you know, typically when you're going into a recession, 358 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: central banks react by cutting interest rates, which kind of 359 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: like allows you kick the can down the road a 360 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: bit it because you don't really have to act. Now 361 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: you have massive inflation meets economic downturn meets central banks 362 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: who want to push rights forward to bring inflation down. 363 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: So their priority is no longer the borrowers and the 364 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: holders of capital. Their priority is inflation. And it's as 365 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: simple as that. And the cost of living has to 366 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: come down, and that means real estate is going to suffer. 367 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: And so this is a pretty unique set of circumstances. 368 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: The other thing you're going to see is actually a 369 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: slump in transactions, so we have to wait for what's 370 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: called seller capitulation. The sellers still think their buildings weren't 371 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: let's say a hundred million, because it was worth a 372 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: hundred million last year. The buyer, because there's far less 373 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 1: of them and they can't borrow as much as in there, well, 374 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: I actually think your buildings worth seventy eight and so 375 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: we have to wait for the seller to almost give up. 376 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: And that's going to be the next trend that comes true. 377 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: And that's how you start getting what we call price discovery, 378 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: which is when you start to see what something's really 379 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: worked as a host to what it's theoretically worth. And 380 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: that's when some of the banks will start to suffer. 381 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: Now it's worth saying the banks have been much more 382 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: responsible this time than in the build up to the 383 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: global financial crisis. Their loan to values and most of 384 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: the commercial real estates in the fifties, so you'd have 385 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: to see a pretty big value decline in order to 386 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: hit that. So a lot of the cases, it's actually 387 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: the equity holders, which are many cases are are pension funds. 388 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: They're going to be feeling the impact of this coming 389 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: up in the next year. In the UK, for example, 390 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: I think you write that housing prices are as much 391 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: as twenty percent overvalued. Yeah, and what we're starting to 392 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: see is price falls as a result of that. So 393 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: it's starting to finally come true into the data that 394 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: house prices have been overvalued, that they have been void 395 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: by low interest rates, particularly to try and say the 396 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: economy during the pandemic. Actually saw something yesterday that said 397 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: house prices in London and the southeast of England, which 398 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: is the areas around London, effectively are over valued. Now. 399 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody is saying that there's going to 400 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: be a forty percent to climb, but certainly that area 401 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: looks very vulnerable going forward. And I think one of 402 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: the global trends you're going to see is the countries 403 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: that were the winners of the last downturn, that came 404 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: out of it in the best shape, are going to 405 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: be the losers this time around because maybe they didn't 406 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: need interest rates to be as low as they were. 407 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: So you know, in China we've already seen mortgage holders 408 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: boycotting paymaking payments while apartment blocks halted instruction. House prices 409 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: in Sydney are falling at the fastest rate and record 410 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: in Canada. Toronto has just had his worst run ever Sweden. 411 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean, the house price declined there is unbelievable and 412 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: early eighteen percent, about eighteen percent in just a few months. 413 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: When you look down the road, how do you see 414 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: all this playing out? Right? Now? There's a lot of 415 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: people who are upside down or in distress. Where does 416 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: it go from here? Yeah, I think the market will 417 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: go to a downturn until such time as basically prices 418 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: reset at a level that makes sense for the borrowing 419 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: environment that we're in. So it's got to go to 420 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: a level where you can afford to pay your mortgage. 421 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: Basically if you're a homeowner, and that might sound simplistic, 422 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: but if your interest rates have gone up and the 423 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: Fed raised interest rates at the fastest pace on record, 424 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: and you can afford to pay let's say, of your 425 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: post tax income, it's basically got to go to a 426 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: level that reflects that, and in some cases that means 427 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: price falls in order that people can afford these. Otherwise 428 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: you have to wait, hold on to it, maybe rented 429 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: out what we call accidental landlords, so you actually don't 430 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: want to be a litler, but you can't afford to 431 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: get rid of your place, so you kind of hold 432 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: onto the rent until the market comes back. And you know, 433 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm irish, and we we basically had people to do 434 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: this for fifteen years. It took fifteen years for the 435 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: market to rec over, and we may end up in 436 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: a situation like that, where lots of lots of people 437 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: are holding onto property they can't afford to get rid of. 438 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: And I do think the banks are in better shape. 439 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: I do think there will be a shake out there, 440 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: but it won't be anywhere near as bad as a 441 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: financial crisis. What's interesting is for the banks is that 442 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: a lot of what are called stage two loans, which 443 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: is kind of a very boring jargony termed that basically 444 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: means the loans starting to get a bit in trouble, 445 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: but it's not in proper trouble yet. The level of 446 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: increase of that in Europe in the last year has 447 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: been the fastest on record, So that suggests that the 448 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: banks see some trouble coming down the tracks and they're 449 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: getting ready and preparing for that. Neil Calenan, thanks so 450 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: much for talking with me today. Thank you. You can 451 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: read more from Prashanko Pol and Neil Calenan on Bloomberg 452 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for listening to us here at the 453 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: Big Take, the Daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. 454 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: For more shows from my heart Radio, visit the heart 455 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Read today's 456 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at bloomberg dot 457 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: com slash Big Take, and we'd love to hear from you. 458 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: Email us with questions or comments to Big Take at 459 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take 460 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: is Vicky Bergolina. 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