WEBVTT - Every Body Has A Story 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:07.400 What stands out to me is just the sheer massiveness 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:12.000 of this thing and the absolute brutality in his thing. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 These were real human beings who lost their lives, and 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:17.200 it's not just what happened to them, but they were 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.800 actual people. Legal fireworks are upted in court as George 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.560 Wagner the Force attorneys trying to put a sudden end 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.200 to his trial and the Pike County massacre we would 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.560 ask for this trial basically gruesome photos that shown to three. 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.519 He knows these photographs are coming, So I don't know 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.800 how much of this was rooted in legal practice and 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:49.519 how much of it is rooted in theatrics. This is 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:54.000 the Pike to Masker Returned to Pike County Season four, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:01:01.320 Episode seven. Everybody Has a Story. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.760 television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.080 It's the middle of George Wagner the fourth trial, and 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.800 it's important to note that he has pleaded not guilty 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.360 and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.840 Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:24.399 guilty to all charges. Hours of testimony from investigators and 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.600 relatives has painted a very real portrait of what the 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.199 crime scenes look like. But on this day of the trial, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.479 no one could have imagined the gruesomeness they would face. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.840 Listener morning. This episode covers a particularly graphic portion of 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:49.720 the court testimony. Discretion is strongly advised you soldomnly swear 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:51.880 or from that the testimony you were about to give 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.280 Hill your truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.960 Did you show answer? Unto God? Who? Prosecutor Auntie Kinneppa 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.800 and her team called doctor Karen Lumin to the stand. 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.240 Lumin is a forensic pathologist who carried out autopsies on 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:11.600 all eight of the victims. Wednesday, she talked about examining 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.480 Chris senior son Frankie Rodin, and as fiance Hannah Gilly. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.400 Both were found shot to death in their bed inside 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.920 a mobile home, with their infant son left alive between them. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.840 The eight deceased members of the Rodin family were discovered 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:30.040 on a Friday. Once investigators for BCI were done processing 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.639 the crime scenes, the bodies were removed and transported for autopsy, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.360 and that you did the females first. On April twenty third, 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.920 that seems Saturday, Yes okay, And would you have done 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:48.919 that first thing in the morning? Yes, okay? And what 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:54.640 time is it? Says six o seven am. Here's James Tilcher, 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:59.400 longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve. She 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:03.320 got the call firsting Saturday morning. She starts in she 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.560 had to do eight autopsies in three days, but she 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:12.360 actually did three on one day, and then another four 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.200 on another day, and then another one on Monday. And 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:23.679 these weren't just you're running the mill autopsies. I don't 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.800 know what she must have gone through that weekend. And 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.799 knowing they're all one family, we're all like talking amongst ourselves, 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.120 how are we going to handle our own mental health 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.040 through all of this? I can imagine what she's going through. 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.520 Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. You're talking about 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.320 multiple gunshot wounds and lots of evidence trace evidence. To 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:53.040 recover each one of these autopsies would have taken a 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.840 couple of hours because it would have been X rays, 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.560 external photographs, removal of clothing, searching for trace evidence on 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.920 the clothing in place, documentation of the clothing, documentation of 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.600 the holes in the clothing, the defects and the clothing, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.800 the bloodstains on the clothing, all of those measurements. And 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.680 we haven't even made it to the body yet. Just 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.240 let that sink in. So can you imagine how exhausting 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:26.520 this would be and how draining this is psychically? Based 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.920 on a quick review of doctor Lehman's work, she does 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.080 not shy away from emotionally challenging cases. She has performed 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.360 autopsies and testified in many murder trials, including those of toddlers. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:43.200 On the stand, she appears relaxed and direct. Can you 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.200 tell us what we are looking at? This is a 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:51.280 photograph of Hannah Hazel as we open the body bag. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.800 That's a picture of Hannah's chest showing her bra and 0:04:55.880 --> 0:05:00.320 she has a maternity bra and the hooks for the 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.640 front of the bar open and her breast is exposed 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:08.200 in that photograph. And do you see libermortis in that picture? 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:14.599 There is some livermortis in the picture. Yes, here again, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:19.000 Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, when you begin to think about 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.520 libra mortis, it's probably one of the most solid fallback 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.560 positions when it comes to judging post mortem interval. And 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:33.200 the reason is is that it's totally gravitationally dependent. It's 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.520 not impacted by temperature setting. The blood is impacted only 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.839 only by gravity. So the blood will actually pool in 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:46.279 the lowest depended area. And it's very simple to explain. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.240 Just just think for a moment. If you've got a 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:53.000 cup of water. If you pour that cup of water 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.520 out into the sink, well, what's it going to seek. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.680 It's going to see the lowest point of gravity, and 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.280 in the case of the sink, it's going to be 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.080 the drain. So just imagine, if you will, there's a 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.599 body line flat, which we would call the sup hind 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:10.719 position line flat on the back face upwards. Well, the 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:15.479 blood is going to pool into those dependent regions in 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.400 the back on the posterior. We can tell how long 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.280 someone has been down within two to three hours essentially, 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:25.719 when we apply all of these components, whether it's the 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.000 rigidity of the body, the temperature of the body, and 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:34.479 more specifically the postmorum molbidity, the settling of blood. Can 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:36.680 you tell us if the liver mortist that you see 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.440 in that is consistent with her laying mostly on her 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.800 stomach kind of to the right side on the right, Yes, 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.400 on the right side. Yes, what parts of the body 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.719 did you notice injuries too? I'm miss Gilly Hannah Hazel 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.159 head injuries only to her head. How many gunshot wounds 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:59.640 did Hannah Hazel have? Five lumin examines an X ray 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.760 of Hannah has Lagilli's head and explains you can see 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.680 the round orbits where the eyes are. You can see 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.840 where teeth are at the bottom, and then you can 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:16.040 see four relatively larger white radio opaque things on the 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.080 right side of the head. Those are bigger bullets. They 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.160 are deformed, so you see their funny different shapes. They're 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.400 deformed because they struck the bone. And then you see 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.840 there's tiny little pieces of metal above those four pieces. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.720 And on the other side by the left eye, those 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:39.400 are all tiny little fragments of bullet. Joseph Scott Morgan. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.480 You know they won't show certain photographs in court, or 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.800 they'll because the defense will say they're prejudicial. One of 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.480 the most beautiful things that you can do is show 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.320 X rays. Because X rays don't have blood, they don't 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.920 have gore. You don't see bodies blown apart. You might 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.440 see fractured bone, but it's black and white. And then 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:01.320 anything that is radio opaque. You see that, and suddenly 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.840 the snowstorm appears before you, and they look like little 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.440 white dots everywhere, and those are fragments of bullets. And 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.120 that is powerful when the jury looks at that, and 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.840 everybody knows their brain is in the top part of 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.960 their head, inside of their skull, and you see it. 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.040 You know, white bulb goes off and said, oh my god, 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.240 look in the brain. You can see the little dots 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.000 where all of that the bullet fragment and just ripped 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:31.440 this body to shreds. But photographic evidence follows warning. Some 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:37.000 of this discussion is incredibly graphic. In that photograph. I'm 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:41.000 looking at her left eye. There's some clotted blood that 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.520 you see along the margin of her eye. The blood 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.600 that's in her mouth is not an injury. It's blood 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.440 that's there because of the fractures to the skull. It 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.280 actually fractures the sinus bones and then the sinuses bleed 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.520 down the back of the throat passively. Hey, and it 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.760 almost looks like her tooth is black, but that's actually 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.440 blood that's clouded blood. Yes, there are a lot of 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.920 people that you know, want to turn a blind eye 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.040 to the horror of this. You cannot escape it. There's 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.480 no way to. You know, Church this up within the 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:22.680 context of the graphic detail lost the story, and you 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.760 know people as desperately as they want to turn away 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.920 from it, you have to stare at it. You have 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:30.760 to stare at it and assess it. You have to 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.880 get past the horror of it. But you have to 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:42.480 understand this. Every person that died deserves deserves to have 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.520 their story told. I think that it is unmanageable for 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:52.000 the family. Hearing this graphic testimony from the corner, and 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:56.480 also hearing Joseph Morgan's take on it, we forget they 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:00.480 too are human beings who are seeing carnage and blood 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.760 and bodies so regularly. We assume anybody who works in 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.880 this space get used to seeing in that level of gore. 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:13.600 But that's simply not the case here Again, Special Prosecutor 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.640 Angie Kneppa, do you have an opinion as to whether 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.040 or not her eye would have been opened or closed 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.920 at the time that she was shot her eyes because 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.880 it at least got part of her eyelids. I believe 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.480 her eyelids were mostly closed. The fact that it didn't 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.880 get the upper eyelid, it could be. You know, some 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.520 people sleep with their eyes slightly open. It could be 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.040 that our eyes are slightly open. It could also be 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.040 their eyes are fully open. And it only got the 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.800 bottom lit so it did not go through the top eyelid. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:50.360 That's correct. So I can't tell technically if she was 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.080 asleep or awaken. And did you ultimately or can you 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.640 tell us what distance did you determine that was because 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:03.439 we could see stipling. That's an intermediate gunshot wound. Okay? 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:08.079 And that intermediate again, is that three inches to three yes? 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.680 And do you have an opinion as to the effect 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.400 that would have had on Hannah Hazel? Yes? And what 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:21.120 is that opinion? She would have been immediately unconscious, okay? 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.640 And why do you say that the bullet not only 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.679 causes injury, but there's also kinetic energy that travels with 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.960 the bullets. It's shaking up the brain. It takes a 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.000 lot to break the bones in the skull too. There's 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.079 a lot of concussion trauma. So not only is it 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.920 damaging her eye, but the brain is damaged as well, 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.520 and so she would become unconscious. This is only the 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.760 description of the first gunshot. The bullet ended up in 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.480 the frontal lobe of the brain. You can also see 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.600 she's got some blood coming from her left ear. That's 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.760 a sign that the bones inside the head, especially the 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.800 bone where your inner ear is broken, then you bleed 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.400 outside your ear. So that's what you're seeing. Kneppa and 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.800 Luman go through each individual round, all five shots, and 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.480 the damage each bullet did to Hannah Hazel Gilly's body. 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:21.200 Here's legal analyst Mike Allen. What stands out to me 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:26.200 is just the absolute brutality of this thing. I mean, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.320 it's stunning how brutal it is. Shot in the face. 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:35.800 I mean, testimony about a baby nursing at his mother's 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.800 breast and she's shot. I mean, you think about Hannah 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:46.000 laying in bed with that child, and just the pravity 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:53.320 of someone doing that. It's really hard to imagine. All 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.880 in all, doctor Luman extracted four bullets from Hannah Hazel's head. 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.480 The fifth grazed her skull, creating a whole and a 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:05.480 partial bullet wound. During testimony. Reporter James Pilcher reported live 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:10.840 from outside the courtroom. Frankie was shot three times in 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.800 the head. Earlier Wednesday, Todd Fortner with the Oha Bureau 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.160 of Criminal Investigation finished testifying about processing that crime scene 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.600 on Union Hill Road, saying he found five spent shelf 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.720 casings in the couple's bedroom. Frankie Rodin was lying in 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.240 bed with Hannah Hazel Gilly a pair of blue boxer 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.800 shorts the only clothing he was wearing. They were soaked 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.120 with blood. Doctor Luhman holds up a paper bag with 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.559 this evidence inside, but does not open it. She then 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:45.439 picks up a box. This is our bullet box where 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.480 we put all of the projectiles in. I have it 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:55.040 labeled from the head for Frankie and those represent the 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.800 projectiles that you recovered from the head of Frankie Rodin 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:03.240 on eight sixteen. And can you tell us did you 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.960 notice any differences or similarities between those projectiles and the 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:12.400 projectiles that you recovered from Hannah Hazel Gilly. Yes, Frankie 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.679 was lying face up and was shot through the cheek, 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.880 left temple and ear. Hannah Hazel was at his side 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.480 facing him. The shooter came into their room, facing the 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.000 left side of the bed and opened fire. Despite the 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.640 graphic nature of the work at hand, there were only 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:34.640 positive reviews of Lumen's testimony. Here again, James Pulcher. I 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.720 can tell you, at least from the feedback I've gotten 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:42.680 from watching her, that she has really a lot of 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.360 respect in the community for the respect she's treated the 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.080 victims and their bodies and the autopsy and everything else. 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.680 But the next morning, it's not Lumen's testimony that is 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.960 making news. Legal fireworks are uped in court as George 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.760 Wagner the Force attorneys trying to put a sudden end 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.880 to his trial and the Pike County massacre. We would 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.880 ask for a mistrial based on gruesome photos that have 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:13.800 been shown to the jury. Photos are only missile irrelevant disputation. 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.000 George Wagner's defense attorney, John Parker claims continuing to show 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.160 the jury gruesome photos of the crime scenes and autopsies 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.080 is inflammatory, specifically since the actual facts of how the 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:33.560 victims died are not in question. We're going to take 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:44.640 a break. We'll be back in a moment. Here's Jeff 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.480 speaking with James Pilcher. The defense is asking for a Mistriald, 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.200 What do you make of that? Is that it's something 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.680 that's valid? Could they possibly get one? They are pulling 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.680 every trick in the book that they can't to try 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.480 to get this to start over, to delay it, to 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.680 get the juryman to do whatever the latest thing. They 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:07.840 don't want the prosecution to be able to show the 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:14.480 pictures up on the screen. Here again, Joseph Morgan, What 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.440 is kind of out out of left field is the 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.239 idea that the defense attorney would ask for a mistrial 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.120 based on the nature of the photographs. Most of the 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.480 time that that kind of stuff is handled in pre 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.440 trial motion. You come to an agreement as to what 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.240 photography is going to be used, and in the free 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.680 trial motions there'll be a hearing. And they knew this 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.280 was coming. This is not it's not like they just 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.200 fell from the heavens and they're unaware. They know that 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.520 these photographs are coming. So I don't know how much 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.800 of this was rooted in legal practice and how much 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:58.040 of it is rooted in the address. It appears that 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.040 Judge Deering agrees with the request for a mistriald denied. 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.200 The prosecution moves on to crime Scene three, the home 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:11.439 where Dana Roden, Hannah May Roden, and Chris Roden Junior 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:18.400 were killed. The prosecution recalled BCI special agent Todd Fortner 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.439 to the stand. Fortner had already testified earlier in the 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:28.200 trial about evidence at Chris Senior and Gary's trailer. He 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.480 took many of the photographs at Frankie Roden's house as well. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.879 One n caught the eye of both the prosecution and 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.960 defense was an open window on the backside of the home. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:40.760 As you look at State and did at B one 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.560 thirty five, you testified about that air conditioner that appeared 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.679 to have some grass on it out back. Can you 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.640 see that air conditioner in that picture? Yes, just outside 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:54.160 the window. The back of Frankie Roden's home has two windows. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.640 The open window in questions, it's about five to six 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:02.159 feet up from the ground with two HVAC units blow in. 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:06.159 Interior photos are so next show the jury where that 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:08.480 pictures taken from the what you're to packing in that picture. 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.920 This again from the doorway here looking into the bedroom. 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.280 You can see the clutter and the open window. Here 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.959 Stephanie looking at these photographs and picturing this room and 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.560 where these windows are. An interesting detail too, I thought 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.080 was that there was a bathtub and they must have 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.840 been raising baby chicks because to keep them warm, there 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.800 were little wood chips in the bathtub where the chicks 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.720 were growing. And right beside that there was a toddler's 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.760 pack and play, which we've all seen before, just kind 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.600 of a haunting image against the grizzliness that took place 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:52.000 soon after. Also, you know, it raises the question there 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.120 were so much stuff in and around where the windows are, 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.480 it seems like it would have been very clumsy to 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.720 get through that window. Special Agent Todd Fortner. And when 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:06.119 you initially viewed that picture, did you think it was 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.520 unlikely that anybody had to come from that window? Yes, 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.680 so I felt it was less likely that someone came 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:15.080 in without disturbing some of these items. However, it was 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:20.000 not impossible. Okay, So clearly somebody could have come through 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.120 that window, but based on the way that those items appeared, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.320 nothing was knock over or disturbed or upside down. That correct. Correct. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.040 He gave it some thought and listened very carefully, and 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.520 he opined that he didn't believe that that was case. 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.679 He said, it's not off the table, but you know, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.480 the space is so tight this window, you know that 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.440 you would gain access to and there is no underlying 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.480 area to kind of leverage yourself up onto the window seal. 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.000 The defense tries to drive a wedge between the certainty 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.920 of the prosecution and Fortner alluding to one Wagner who 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:05.040 could have fit through that window, admitted murderer, Jake Wagner. 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.720 You prepare to report in this case, right, Yes? And 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.560 in your report you discussed looking for points of entry. 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.760 Do you recall that I do? And what is it 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.760 you said about that as a potential point of interest. 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.160 As I've already testified, I said, with the items there 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.560 inside the window, I felt it was less likely to 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.520 be a point of entry because it's such a tight 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.320 squeeze to get through there and not disrupt those items. 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.000 Even though you said it was unlikely based on your observations, 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.080 was it impossible, No, it was possible. Like I said, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:40.399 it would take somebody smaller and more agile, but not impossible. 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.119 When he said that, I went back and kind of 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.720 reflectively looked at the images of Jake, you know, back 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.320 during that period of time. On some level, he's bulk 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.960 here now, but back in sixteen he was a smaller person. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.240 Jay pit have made through it back then, but I 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.639 think it's highly unlikely. There's another point that we have 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.640 to consider here. If you go through a window, particularly one, 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:05.280 you have to leap up to and kind of pull 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.560 yourself through there, there would be some remnant of you. 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.760 Potentially a much higher probability is some remnant of you 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.040 left behind in that small space you're trying to wiggle through. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:19.080 You testified that you didn't do any swabbing or DNA 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.680 of that open window area as part of your work 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.439 out there on that day. Is that correct? Correct? But 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.240 did you find out or do you know that later 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.320 as part of the investigation eventually that area was swabbed 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:33.159 for DNA, Yes, it was. There was no DNA and 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:38.679 no fingerprints were covered in or around the window. Every 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.480 contact leaves a trace, So everything that we do physically 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:46.200 within the construct of a crime scene, if we touch surface, 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.760 we're gonna leave some element of ourselves behind, whether it's 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.080 an early fingerprint, whether it's a bit of fiber, whether 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.240 it's a bit of touch DNA which is shedding skin. 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.320 And to my way of understand, they didn't find any 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:05.440 of that. The next morning, another attempt by the defense 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:11.120 to shut down the trial. Here's Judge Deering. A motion 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:16.840 was filed earlier this morning, motion number one eleven, entitled 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:26.080 motion for a mistrial. Thursday began with another attempt by 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.600 Wagner's defense team to get a mistrial in the case. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.760 But as you did wednesday, Judge Randy Deering overruled that motion. 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.359 Here again, Mike Allen on why the defense would file 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:41.200 motions on back to back days. They're making a record. 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:43.800 From what I understand, it was an oral motion the 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.480 day before yesterday. It was put in writing yesterday and 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:50.159 filed and the judge heard the one that is in 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.200 writing today. It's all about making a record in case 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:59.399 there's an appeal again, Joseph Scott Morgan. If George's fauld, 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.280 it's immediately going to go up on appeal. And I 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:05.960 can promise you this is going to be a point 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:08.040 which they're going to argue on appeal. They're going to 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.680 say these photographs were so prejudicial, so over the top, 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.800 that it's swayed in an inappropriate manner. A pain in 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.560 my client is some kind of monster. Soon after the exchange, 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:24.320 Hamilton County Chief Deputy Corner Doctor Karen Lohman returned to 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.040 the stand. Doctor Lohman, can you tell us what we 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:31.119 are looking at there? So this is a side X 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:34.119 ray of Dana's head. You can see she has some 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.920 fillings in her teeth and she has one, two, three, four, 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:42.480 about six large pieces of bullet and blood fragments in 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:47.480 her head. Kneppa, seeing the graphic nature of the photo, 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.480 pauses for many awkward seconds. Luman grimaces and looks down 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:56.639 while Kneppa decides what to do. She asked the judge 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.719 to remove the photo from the in room screen. I'm 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.760 gonna can you minimize seconds. I'm going to approach the 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.640 exhibit with this next photo. If that's okay with Cord, 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:11.720 I'm going to approach the victim with this next From 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:14.359 here on in, she only shows doctor Lumen and the 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:18.800 jury printed photos of the autopsies. Doctor, can you tell 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.680 us when you did your examination of Dana Roden how 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:28.200 many gunshot wounds had she received? Five? Matriarch Dana Rodin 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:30.600 was in a nightgown in bed when she was shot, 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:34.280 and can you tell us we are was gunshot wound 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:39.520 number one located on the diagram. Number one is on 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.479 the far left. It looks like it's on the right forehead. 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:44.560 It's a little more on the side of the forehead. 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:48.879 It traveled across, following a relatively straight path to the 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:52.320 left side of her head, struck the bone on the 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:54.119 left side of her head, but did not exit and 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.760 then fell inside her skull to underneath her brain. And 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:02.360 gunshot wound number two were that located, that is, closer 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:06.680 to the center of the right forehead. Shot three was similar. 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.040 The other two grazed her skull and shattered her jaw. 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.280 And can you tell us do you have an opinion? 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:21.240 Were the bullets in projectile that you recovered from Dana Rodin? 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:25.159 Was that consistent with the bullets and projectiles that you 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:30.720 removed from Frankie Rodin and Hannah Hazel Kelly, Yes, okay, 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:35.800 and inconsistent with the bullets and projectiles that you recovered 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:43.160 from Chris Senior and Gary Rodin. Yes, that's correct. When 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:46.440 initial photos of Hannahme Rodin in a body bag are 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:50.639 presented to doctor Luhman, Angie Kaneppa immediately draws attention to 0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:54.440 a tattoo. There is what appears to be a tattoo 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:58.919 close to the underwear line or the bikini line. And 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:02.080 can you tell us what those initials are? The initials 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:08.439 are EJW. Kire Stephanie Hannah May Rodin on her body. 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:12.879 She has a little tattoo with the initials E J W. 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:18.760 On her hip. Those initials of course afore Edward Jake Wagner. 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:22.919 That's Jake Wagner's legal name, and it just paints a picture. 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:30.520 At one point she was deeply, deeply in love with him. 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:35.400 This is a side view of Hannah's head. You can 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:38.359 see that this long believe gated piece of metal and 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:41.119