1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: What stands out to me is just the sheer massiveness 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: of this thing and the absolute brutality of this thing. 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: These were real human beings who lost their lives, and 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: it's not just what happened to them, but they were 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: actual people. Legal fireworks are uped in court as George 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: Wagner the Force attorneys try to put a sudden end 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: to his trial and the Pike County massacre. We would 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: ask for this trial based on grusal photos they've shown 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: to the jury. They noticed these photographs were coming, So 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: I don't know how much of this was rooted in 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: legal practice and how much of it is rooted in theatrics. 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: This is the piped massacer. Returned to Pike County Season four, 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: Episode seven, Everybody Has a Story. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecer and Jeff Shane. 15 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: It's the middle of George Wagner the Fourth's trial, and 16 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: it's important to note that he has pleaded not guilty 17 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 18 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: guilty to all charges. Hours of testimony from investigators and 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: relatives has painted a very real portrait of what the 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: crime scenes look like, But on this day of the trial, 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: no one could have imagined the gruesomeness they would face. 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: Listener warning, this episode covers a particularly graphic portion of 24 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: the court testimony. Discretion is strongly advised. You soldomnly swear 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: or from not the testimony you're about to give. Hill 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 27 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: truth that you shall answer unto God. I do. Prosecutor 28 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: Anji Cineppa and her team call doctor Karen Luhman to 29 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: the stand. Luman is a forensic pathologist who carried out 30 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: autopsies on all eight of the victims. Wednesday, she talked 31 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: about examining Chris Senior's son, Frankie Rodin and his fiance 32 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: Hannah Gilly. Both were found shot to death in their 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: bed inside a mobile home, with their infant son left 34 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: alive between them. The eight deceased members of the Rodent 35 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: family were discovered on a Friday. Once investigators for BCI 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: were done processing the crime scenes, the bodies were removed 37 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: and transported for autopsy. And you did the females first. 38 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: On April twenty third. That seems sack. Yes okay, And 39 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: would you have done that first thing in the morning? Yes, okay? 40 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: And what time is It's six seven am. Here's James Pilcher, 41 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve. She 42 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: got the call first thing Saturday morning. She starts in 43 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: she had to do eight autopsies in three days, but 44 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: she actually did three on one day, and then another 45 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: four on another day, and then another one on Monday. 46 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: And these weren't just you're running them all autopsies. I 47 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: don't know what she must have gone through that weekend. 48 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 1: And knowing they're all one family, we're all like talking 49 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: amongst ourselves, how are we going to handle our own 50 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: mental health through all of this? I can imagine what 51 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: she's going through. Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. 52 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: You're talking about multiple gunshot wounds and lots of evidence 53 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: trace evidence. To recover each one of these autopsies would 54 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: have taken a couple of hours because it would have 55 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: been X rays, external photographs, removal of clothing, searching for 56 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: trace evidence on the clothing in place, documentation of the clothing, 57 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: documentation of the holes in the clothing, the defects in 58 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: the clothing, the bloodstains on the clothing, all of those measurements. 59 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: And we haven't even made it to the body yet. 60 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Just let that sink in. So can you imagine how 61 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: exhausting this would be and how draining this is psychically? 62 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: Based on a quick review of doctor Lehman's work, she 63 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: does not shy away from emotionally challenging cases. She has 64 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: performed autopsies and testified in many murder trials, including those 65 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: of Toddler's. On the stand, she appears relaxed and direct. 66 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: Can you tell us what we are looking at? This 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: is a photograph of Hannah Hazel as we open the 68 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: body bag. That's a picture of Hannah's chest showing her 69 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: bra and she has a maternity bra and the hooks 70 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: for the front of the bra are open and her 71 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: breast is exposed in that yestograph. And do you see 72 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: liver mortis in that picture? There is some liver mortis 73 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: in the picture. Yes, here again, Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, 74 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about live or mortisy, it's 75 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: probably one of the most solid fallback positions when it 76 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: comes to judging post mortem interval. And the reason is 77 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: is that it's totally gravitationally dependent. It's not impacted by temperature. Sadly, 78 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: the blood is impacted only only by gravity. So the 79 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: blood will actually pol in the lowest dependent area. And 80 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: it's very simple to explain. Just just think for a moment. 81 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: If you've got a cup of water. If you pour 82 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: that cup of water out into the sink, well, what's 83 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: it going to seek. It's going to seek the lowest 84 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: point of gravity, and in the case of the sink, 85 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: it's going to be the drain. So just imagine, if 86 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: you will, there's a body lying flat, which we would 87 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: call the soup high position line, flat on the back, 88 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: face upwards. Well, the blood is going to pool into 89 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: those dependent regions in the back on the posterior. We 90 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: can tell how long someone has been down within two 91 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: to three hours essentially, when we apply all of these components, 92 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: whether it's the rigidity of the body, the temperature of 93 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: the body, and more specifically the post war mobidity, the 94 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: settling of blood. Can you tell us if the liver 95 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: mortars that you see in that is consistent with her 96 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: laying mostly on her stomach kind of to the right side, 97 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: on the right side, yes, on the right side, Yes. 98 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: What parts of the body did you notice injuries to 99 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: on ms Gilly Hannah Hazel head injuries only to her head. 100 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: How many gunshot wounds did Hannah Hazel have? Five lumin 101 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: examines an X ray of Hannah hazeler Gilly's head and 102 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: explains you can see the round orbits where the eyes are. 103 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: You can see where teeth are at the bottom, and 104 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: then you can see four relatively larger white radio opaque 105 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: things on the right side of the head. Those are 106 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: bigger bullets. They are deformed, so you see their funny 107 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: different shapes. They're deformed because they've struck the bone. And 108 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: then you see there's tiny little pieces of metal above 109 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: those four pieces. And on the other side, by the 110 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: left eye, those are all tiny little fragments of bullet. 111 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. You know they won't show certain photographs 112 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: in court or because defense will say they're prejudicial. One 113 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: of the most beautiful things that you can do is 114 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: show X rays. Because X rays don't have blood, they 115 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: don't have gore. You don't see bodies blown apart. You 116 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: might see fractured bone, but it's black and white, and 117 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: then anything that is radio opaque. You see that, and 118 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: suddenly the snowstorm appears before you and they look like 119 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: little white dots everywhere, and those are fragments of bullets. 120 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: And that is powerful when the jury looks at that, 121 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: and everybody knows their brain is in the top part 122 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: of their head, inside of their skull, and you see it, 123 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, light bulb goes off and said, oh my god, 124 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: look in the brain. You can see the little dots 125 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: where all of that the bullet fragment, and just rip 126 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: this body shreds. But photographic evidence follows warning some of 127 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: this discussion is incredibly graphic. In that photograph, I'm looking 128 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: at her left eye. There's some clotted blood that you 129 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: see along the margin of her eye. The blood that's 130 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: in her mouth is not an injury. It's blood that's 131 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: there because of the fractures to the skull. It actually fractures. 132 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: The sinus booms and then the sinuses bleed down the 133 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: back of the throat passively. Okay, And it almost looks 134 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: like her tooth is black, But that's actually blood. That's 135 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: clauded blood. Yes, there are a lot of people that 136 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: you know, want to turn a blind eye to the 137 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: horror of this. You cannot escape it. There's no way to. 138 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: You know, Church this up within the context of the 139 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: graphic detail lost the story, and you know, people as 140 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: desperately as they want to turn away from it, you 141 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: have to stare at it. You have to stare at 142 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: it and assess it. You have to get past the 143 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: horror of it. But you have to understand this. Every 144 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: person that died deserves deserves to have their story told. 145 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: I think that it is unimaginable for the family. Hearing 146 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: this graphic testimony from the corner, and also hearing Joseph 147 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: Morgan's take on it, we forget they too are human 148 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,239 Speaker 1: beings who are seeing carnage and blood and bodies so regularly. 149 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: We assume anybody who works in this space get used 150 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: to seeing in that level of gore. But that's simply 151 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: not the case here Again, Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa, you 152 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: have an opinion as to whether or not her eye 153 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: would have been opened or closed at the time that 154 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: she was shot her eyes, because it at least got 155 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: part of her eyelids. I believe her eyelids were mostly closed. 156 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: The fact that it didn't get the upper eyelid. It 157 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: could be you know, some people sleep with their eyes 158 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: slightly open. It could be that heir eyes are slightly open. 159 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: It could also be their eyes are fully open. And 160 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: it only got the bottom lid, so it did not 161 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: go through the top eyelid. That's correct. Okay. So I 162 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: can't tell technically if she was asleep or awake. And 163 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: did you ultimately, well, can you tell us what distance 164 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: did you determine that was? Because we could see stippling. 165 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: That's an intermediate gunshot wound. Okay. And that intermediate again, 166 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: is that three inches to three fees ish rang Yes? 167 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: And do you have an opinion as to the effect 168 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: that would have had on Hannah Hazel? Yes? And what 169 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: is that opinion? She would have been immediately unconscious, okay? 170 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: And why do you say that the bullet not only 171 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: causes injury, but there's also kinetic energy that travels with 172 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: the bullets. It's shaking up the brain. It takes a 173 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: lot to break the bones in the skull too. There's 174 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: a lot of concussion trauma. So not only is it 175 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: damaging her eye, but the brain is damaged as well, 176 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: and so she would become unconscious. This is only the 177 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: description of the first gunshot. The bullet ended up in 178 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: the frontal lobe of the brain. You can also see 179 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: she's got some blood coming from her left ear. That's 180 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: a sign that the bones inside the head, especially the 181 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: where your inner ear is, is broken. Then you bleed 182 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: outside your ear. So that's what you're seeing. Kneppa and 183 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: Luman go through each individual round, all five shots and 184 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: the damage each bullet did to Hannah Hazel Gilly's body. 185 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: Here's legal analyst Mike Allan. What stands out to me 186 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: is just the absolute brutality of this thing. I mean, 187 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: it's stunning how brutal it is. Shot in the face. 188 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean, testimony about a baby nursing at his mother's 189 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: breast and she's shot. I mean, you think about Hannah 190 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: laying in bed with that child, and just the pravity 191 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: of someone doing that. It's really hard to imagine. All 192 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: in all, doctor Lumin extracted four bullets from Hannah Hazel's head. 193 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: The fifth grazed her skull, creating a and a partial 194 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: bullet wound. During testimony, Reporter James Pilcher reported live from 195 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: outside the courtroom. Frankie was shot three times in the 196 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: head earlier Wednesday, Todd Fordner with the Oha Bureau of 197 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: Criminal Investigation finished testifying about processing that crime scene on 198 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road, saying he found five spent shelf casings 199 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: in the couple's bedroom. Frankie Rodin was lying in bed 200 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: with Hannah Hazel Gilly a pair of blue box of 201 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: shorts the only clothing he was wearing. They were soaked 202 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: with blood. Doctor Luhman holds up a paper bag with 203 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: this evidence inside, but does not open it. She then 204 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: picks up a box. This is our bullet box where 205 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: we put all of the projectiles in. I have it 206 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: labeled from the head for Frankie and those represent the 207 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: projectiles that you recovered from the head of Frankie Rodin 208 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: on eighteen twenty four f twenty sixteen. And can you 209 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: tell us did you notice any differences or similarities between 210 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: those projectiles and the projectiles that you recovered from Hannah 211 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: Hazel Gilly. Yes, Frankie was lying face up and was 212 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: shot through the cheek, left temple and ear. Hannah Hazel 213 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: was at his side facing him. The shooter came into 214 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: their room, facing the left side of the bed and 215 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: opened fire. Despite the graphic nature of the work, at hand, 216 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: there were only positive reviews of Lumen's testimony. Here again, 217 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: James Pulcher, I can tell you, at least from the 218 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: feedback I've gotten from watching her, that she has really 219 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: a lot of respect in the community for the respect 220 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: she's treated the victims in their bodies and the autopsy 221 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: and everything else. But the next morning, it's not Lumen's 222 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: testimony that is making news. Legal fireworks are upped in 223 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: court as George Wagner, the Force attorneys try to put 224 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: to sudden end to his trial and the Pike County massacre. 225 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: We would ask for a mistrial based on gruesome photos 226 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: and then shown to the jury. Photos are only irrelevant 227 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: and protive of a disputed issue. George Wagner's defense attorney, 228 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: John Parker claims continuing to show the jury gruesome photos 229 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: of the crime scenes and autopsies is inflammatory, specifically since 230 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: the actual facts of how the victims died are not 231 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: in question. We're going to take a break. We'll be 232 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Here's Jeff speaking with James Pilcher. 233 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: The defense is asking for a mistrial. What do you 234 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: make of that? Is that it something that's valid? Could 235 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: they possibly get one They are pulling every trick in 236 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: the book that they can't to try to get this 237 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: to start over, to delay it, to get the jury mad, 238 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: to do whatever the latest thing. They don't want the 239 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: prosecution to be able to show the pictures up on 240 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: the screen. Here again, Joseph Morgan, what is kind of 241 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: out of left field is the idea that the defense 242 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: attorney would ask for a mistrial based on the nature 243 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: of the photographs. Most of the time that kind of 244 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: stuff is handled in pre trial motion. You come to 245 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: an agreement as to what photography is going to be used, 246 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: and in the pre trial motions there'll be a hearing. 247 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: And they knew this was coming. This is not like 248 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: this just fell from the heavens and they're unaware. They 249 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: know that these photographs are coming. So I don't know 250 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: how much of this was rooted in legal practice and 251 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: how much of its rooted in theatress. It appears that 252 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: Judge Deering agrees with the request for a mistrial denied. 253 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: The prosecution moves on to crime scene three, the home 254 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: where Dana Rodin, Hannah Mae Rodin, and Chris Rodin Junior 255 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 1: were killed. The prosecution recalled BCI Special Agent Todd Fortner 256 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: to the stand. Fortner had already testified earlier in the 257 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: trial about evidence at Chris Senior and Gary's trailer. He 258 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: took many of the photographs at Frankie Roden's house as well. 259 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: One that caught the eye of both the prosecution and 260 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: defense was an open window on the backside of the home. 261 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: As you look at State and Zibitt B one five, 262 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: you testified about that air conditioner that appeared to have 263 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: some grass on it out back. Can you see that 264 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: air conditioner in that picture? Yes, just outside the window. 265 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: The back of Frankie Roden's home has two windows. The 266 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: open window in questions, it's about five to six feet 267 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: up from the ground with two HVAC units blow in. 268 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: Interior photos are shown next show the jury where that 269 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: pictures taken from and what you're depicting in that picture. 270 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: This again from the doorway here looking into the bedroom. 271 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: You can see the clutter and the open window. Here 272 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: Stephanie looking at these photographs and picturing this room and 273 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: where these windows are. An interesting detail too, I thought 274 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: was that there was a bathtub and they must have 275 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: been raising baby chicks, because to keep them warm there 276 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: were little wood chips in the bathtub where the chicks 277 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: were growing, and right beside that there was, you know, 278 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: a toddler's pack and play, which we've all seen before, 279 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: just kind of a haunting image against the grizzliness that 280 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: took place soon after. Also, you know, it raises the 281 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: question there was so much stuff in and around where 282 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: the windows are. It seems like it would have been 283 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: very clumsy to get through that window, specially agent Todd Fortner. 284 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: And when you initially viewed that picture, did you think 285 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: it was unlikely that anybody had come from that window? Yeah, 286 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: so I thought it was less likely that someone came 287 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: in without disturbing some of these items. However, it was 288 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: not impossible. Okay, So clearly somebody could have come through 289 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: that window, but based on the way that those items appeared, 290 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: nothing was knockover or disturbed or upside down. Was that correct? Correct? 291 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: He gave it some thought and listened very carefully, and 292 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: he opined that he didn't believe that it was case. 293 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: He said, it's it's not off the table, but you know, 294 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: the space is so tight this window, you know that 295 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: you would gain access through and there is no underlying 296 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: area to kind of leverage yourself up onto the window seal. 297 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: The defense tries to drive a wedge between the certainty 298 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: of the prosecution and Fortner, alluding to one Wagner who 299 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: could have fit through that window, admitted murderer, Jake Wagner. 300 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: You prepared to report in this case, right, yes, And 301 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: in your report you discussed looking for points of injury. 302 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: Do you recall that I do, And what is it 303 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: you said about that as a potential point of interest, 304 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: As I've already testified, I said, with the items there 305 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: inside the window, I felt it was less likely to 306 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: be a point of entry because it's such a tight 307 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: squeeze to get through there and not disrupt those items. 308 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: Even though you said it was unlikely based on your observations, 309 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: was it impossible, No, it was possible. Like I said, 310 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: it would take somebody smaller and more agile, but not impossible. 311 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: When he said that, I went back and kind of 312 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: reflectively looked at the images of Jake, you know, back 313 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: during that period of time. On some level, he's bulk 314 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: here now, but back in sixteen he was a smaller person. 315 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: Jay could have made through it back then, but I 316 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: think it's highly unlikely. There's another point that we have 317 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: to consider here, if you go through a window, particularly 318 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: when you have to leap up to and kind of 319 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: pull yourself through there, there would be some remnant of you, 320 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: potentially a much higher probability of some remnant of you 321 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: left behind in that small space you're trying to wiggle through. 322 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: You testify that you didn't do any slabbing or DNA 323 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: of that open window area as part of your work 324 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: out there on that day. Is that correct? Correct? But 325 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: did you find out or do you know that later 326 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: as part of the investigation eventually that area was slabbed 327 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: for DNA, Yes it was. There was no DNA and 328 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: no fingerprints recovered in or around the window. Every contact 329 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: leaves a trace, So everything that we do physically within 330 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: the construct of a crime scene, if we touch a surface, 331 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna leave some element of ourselves behind, whether it's 332 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: an oily fingerprint, whether it's a bit of fiber, whether 333 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: it's a bit of touch DNA which is shedding skin. 334 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: And to my way of understanding, they didn't find any 335 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: of that. The next morning, another attempt by the defense 336 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: to shut down the trial. Here's judge deering motion was 337 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: filed earlier this morning. Motion number one eleven, entitled motion 338 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: for this mistrial. Thursday began with another attempt by Wagner's 339 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: defense team to get a mistrial in the case, but 340 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: as he did Wednesday, Judge Randy Dearing overruled that motion. 341 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: Here again, Mike Allen on why the defense would file 342 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: motions on back to back days. They're making a record. 343 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: From what I understand, it was an oral motion the 344 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: day before yesterday. It was put in writing yesterday and 345 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: filed and the judge heard the one that is in 346 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: writing today. It's all about making a record in case 347 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: there's an appeal again, Joseph Scott Morgan. If George s foul, 348 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: it's immediately going to go up on appeal. And I 349 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: can promise you this is going to be a point 350 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: which they're going to argue on appeal. They're going to 351 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: say these photographs were so prejudicial, so over the top, 352 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: that it's swayed them in an inappropriate manner. A pain 353 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: in my client is some kind of monster. Soon after 354 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: the exchange, Hamilton County Chief Deputy Coroner doctor Karen Lohman 355 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: returned to the stand, Doctor Lowman, can you tell us 356 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: what we are looking at there? So this is a 357 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: side X ray of Dana's head. You can see g 358 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: has some fillings in her teeth and she has one, two, three, four, 359 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: about six large pieces of bullet and bullet fragments in 360 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: her head. Canepa, seeing the graphic nature of the photo, 361 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: pauses for many awkward seconds. Luman grimaces and looks down 362 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: while Kinnepa decides what to do. She asked the judge 363 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: to remove the photo from the in room screen. I'm gonna, 364 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: can you minimizes, I'm going to approach the exhibit with 365 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: this next photo. If that's okay with the court, I'm 366 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: sor I'm going to approach the victim with this next 367 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: photel From here on in, she only shows doctor Luhman 368 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: and the jury printed photos of the autopsies. Doctor, can 369 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: you tell us when you did your examination of Dana 370 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: Rodin how many gunshot wounds had she received? Five? Matriarch 371 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: Dana Roden was in a nightgown in bed when she 372 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: was shot. And can you tell us where was gunshot 373 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: wound number one located on the diagram? Number one is 374 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: on the far left. It looks like it's on the 375 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: right forehead. It's a little more on the side of 376 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: the forehead, It traveled across following a relatively straight path 377 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: to the left side of her head, struck the bone 378 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: on the left side of her head, but did not exit, 379 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: and then fell insiderr skull to underneath her brain and 380 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: gunshot wound number two is that located? That is closer 381 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: to the center of the right forehead. Shot three was 382 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: similar The other two grazed her skull and shattered her jaw. 383 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: And can you tell us do you have an opinion 384 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: where the bullets and projectile that you recovered from Dana Roden? 385 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: Was that consistent with the bullets and projectiles that you 386 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: removed from Frankie Rodin and Hannah Hazel Kelly. Yes, okay, 387 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: and inconsistent with the bullets and projectiles that you recovered 388 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: from Chris Senior and Gary Roden. Yes, that's correct. When 389 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: initial photos of Hannah me Rodin in a body bag 390 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: are presented to doctor luhman Angi Kineppa immediately draws attention 391 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: to a tattoo. There is what appears to be a 392 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: tattoo close to the underwear line or the bikini line. 393 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: And can you tell us what those initials are? The 394 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: initials are EJ. W. Cure. Stephanie had to may Roden 395 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: on her body. She has a little tattoo with the 396 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: initials E J W on her hip. Those initials, of course, 397 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: are for Edward Jake Wagner. That's Jake Wagner's legal name, 398 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: and it just paints a picture. At one point she 399 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: was deeply, deeply in love with him. This is a 400 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: side view of Hannah's head. You can see that this 401 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: long labigated piece of metal and a shorter one there. 402 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: Those are the ear rings that we saw previously in 403 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: the previous picture. And then you can see some small 404 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: radiopaque white pieces of bullet in her head. And when 405 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: you conducted your examination of Hannah road In, how many 406 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds did you observe her to have too? Here again, 407 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: reporter James Pilcher, Hannah was the main target because she 408 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: was the one holding up the issues with the custody, 409 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: and yet she only got shot twice and the rest 410 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: were you know, Dana got shot five times. It makes 411 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: no sense. Anname Roden was shot in the upper left 412 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: back of her head and behind her left ear She 413 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: was found resting facing away from the door to her bedroom. 414 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: So if, for instance, somebody comes in through here, this 415 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: individual sees that person and then turns away, either instinctively 416 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: to because they see a gun in or to protect 417 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: the child that's lain and better with them. Are the 418 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: injuries in the pathways that you saw took her head 419 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: consistent with that? Yes? Did you observe the shirt to 420 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: be in any certain position? Yes? And what was that position? 421 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: The shirt was pulled up over the right brist And 422 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: did you actually have some other abnormal finding when you 423 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: did the internal examination of Hannah Roding or an additional finding? Yeah, 424 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily abnormal, but yes, additional findings. And what was that? 425 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: One of them was that she was lactating, and the 426 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: other was that her uterus was enlarged because she'd just 427 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: given birth several days before, so it takes a while 428 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: for your uterus to shrink back down, so I could 429 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: tell that she'd recently given birth. Back in twenty sixteen, 430 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: the weekend after the murderers, Karen Lehman returned to the 431 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: Mark on Sunday after spending an entire Saturday with the 432 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: bodies of Dana, Hannah Hazel and Anime. Chris Junior was 433 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: the first body she examined that day. The fifteen year 434 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: old is found lying on his stomach covered by a comforter. 435 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: There were four shots to the right side of his 436 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: head and face. And is that consistent with the body 437 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: being positioned this way and somebody coming up and shooting 438 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: him from this side? Yes? Yes, Did you observe any 439 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: exit wounds to Christopher Junior? No? Did you collect the 440 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: projectile that you recovered from within his head? Yes? Okay, 441 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: showing you it's been Marcus dates exhibit K ninety three 442 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: if you can tell me what that is. This is 443 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: a bullet box labeled from the head and it's holding 444 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: all of the bullets in one box that we collected 445 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: at all. Toops here again, James Pilcher, seeing the crime 446 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: scene photos of Chris Junior about may cry. I'm a 447 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: parent of a fifteen sixteen year old and to see 448 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: him just lying dead in bed with a bullet hole 449 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: in his forehead and purple was just not something I'd 450 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: ever want to see again. That afternoon, court adjourns for 451 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: the week after hours of grilling testimony about crime scene. 452 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: Three jurors who will decide George Wagner's Gilbert innocence have 453 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: a lot to think about this weekend. Let's stop here 454 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: for another break. Monday morning comes quickly for a tired 455 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: panel of jurors. Doctor lumin arrives for her final day 456 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: of testimony. It's the final day bearing witness to the 457 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: most grizzly details of how an entire branch of the 458 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: family tree was chopped off in one night. In a 459 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: previous episode, we analyzed Kenneth Roden's crime scene, known as 460 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: crime Scene four, in depth, but Karen Luman adds an 461 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: additional detail we had not heard about Kenny Roden's murder. 462 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: Do you have a fainting within a reasonable agree medical 463 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: certaty as to the cause of death of Kennedyry? Yes? Hey, 464 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: what would that be? Duck her? It was a single 465 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: gunshot wound to the head. His eyes were closed because 466 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: the bullet went through his eyelids. This is where we 467 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: found the bullet. It is a refrain she touched upon 468 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: across her testimony. James Pilcher the moment said she could 469 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: tell many of the victims died in their sleep. It 470 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: became apparent looking at where the wounds were that it 471 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: seemed that many of them were shot multiple times and 472 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: never moved, never appeared to have reacted to other people 473 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: in the house being shot as well. Here's Jeff speaking 474 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: with Mike Gallon. It's more detail than we've ever gotten 475 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: about the brutality of what happened to the Rodan family. 476 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: And you know, there didn't appear to be much of 477 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: a struggle, and she said that's not normally the case. 478 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: My guess is that they're probably they probably were asleep 479 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: because I mean, if you hear a gunshot, or if 480 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: you see somebody coming at you holding the gun or 481 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: anything at that time of night, I think your suspicions 482 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: would be raised if you didn't have any defensive wounds 483 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: and nobody really resisted. Yeah, it's it's hard to like 484 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: picture it. I mean, for sure to me points too 485 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: that Jake was not alone in shooting them, like there 486 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: had to have been more than one shooter. I mean, 487 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: if you think about if everyone was in bed, if 488 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: you go to Dana's house, it's Dana, Hannah, and little Cress. 489 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: So were there three shooters at the same time, you know, 490 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: all counting down or could there be another reason no 491 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: one woke up. They're for getting further and further away 492 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: from tying it to the actual defendant. Here, we really 493 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: got to get to the beginning when the plotting and 494 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: planning and real conspiracy took place. And this is a 495 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: fired bullet, a forty caliber. So the focus of testimony 496 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: now is ballistics, the bullets that were found at each 497 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: of those four crime scenes. It's part of a number 498 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: of experts in the state will be calling to show 499 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: the jury the evidence to tie it to the Wagner family. 500 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: They have to show this because we learned today there 501 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: was no Wagner family members DNA at any of those 502 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: four crime scenes. More on that next time. For more 503 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on 504 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is produced 505 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, Scott de Grau, Andrew Arnow, 506 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 507 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: by Jeff Taw Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Maskers 508 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio and Katie's Studios. For more podcasts 509 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 510 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome 511 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: Markite County Dogged Festival. Queen Lord. I just thank you 512 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: for bringing us all together as a community. Okay there 513 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: all over the house? Who could have killed eight family 514 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: members in one mite. I lost my best friends and 515 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: I will never be the same because of that day. 516 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left 517 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that 518 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the master mind? 519 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: I'm telling you it's a I'm not sitting in prison. 520 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: One thing our lard. The smaller the town, the bigger 521 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: the sacreds. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The 522 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: Pike County Murders of Family Massacre, premiering on NBC Universal's 523 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day 524 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. Please check 525 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: your local listings and our hearts are with the Rodents 526 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: and the Gilly families.