WEBVTT - Tom Werman 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.479 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefts Podcast. My 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.720 guest today is record producer Tom Mormon. Know him from 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:21.200 his work with Cheap Trick, Ted Nugent, Twisted Sister Motley Crue. 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.200 Tom Good to have you, good to be here, wonderful, 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:30.560 real honor. So what was the first record you ever produced? Well? 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.479 I kind of co produced Ted Nugent, the Ted Nugent 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:40.720 Ted Nugent Record with Stranglehold on it Um. I signed 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:45.480 Ted and his manager actually owned his production contract, which 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.320 gave him the right to produce him. I wanted Pete 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:53.840 Townsend to produce him and piece. Pete's attorney had a 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:58.040 good laugh over that one. But anyway, I was forced 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.319 we Epic was forced to acce up this guy's role 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.319 as producer and I went into the studio to protect 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.959 my investment because it took me a long time and 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:14.959 a lot of tries to sign Ted Um. I had 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.600 offered three bands to Epic before that turned out to 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.560 be huge, but they passed UM. So so I went 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.960 into the studio and I started making a lot of suggestions, wait, wait, wait, 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.200 let's slow down a little bit. What those of us 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.920 before he came back on epic. We just know him 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.480 from Journey to the Center of the Mind. What was 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.360 Ted doing at the time, and why was he so 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:42.000 hard to sign? He wasn't hard to sign for me, 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:47.840 but it was hard for me to get the company 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:52.760 to accept the signings that I brought them. Um. I 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.559 had a boss who was really bright and really nice, 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.640 but knew very little about rock and roll. So um, 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:04.440 he passed on Kiss, Leonard, Skinners, and Rush, which I 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.160 had brought to the label free and clear, and um, 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.920 you know. The only other band I had signed in 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.639 the first six years at the label was Ario Speedwagon 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.960 and that was the first band I signed. Um. Anyway, 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.480 so I finally got an opportunity to sign Ted. And 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.720 at this point I really needed a hit because I've 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.520 been at the label for six years and only signed 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:37.480 one band and one successful band, and um, you know, 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.799 and our guys generally need to bat at least two 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.440 in order to keep their jobs. So I really wanted 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.720 to protect this investment. And I went into the studio 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.880 and I kind of horned in and just just one 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.640 question before of course, during most of the heyday, David 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.240 Krebs Liber Crebs were the managers? Were they the ones 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.040 who had the production deal? Was this someone for them? Now? 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.560 They were just the managers? Um? Yeah, lou Futterman had 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:09.240 the production deal. He owned Ted and he managed him. 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:16.720 He uh, I guess sold man the management to to David. Um. 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.760 David came out to Lansing, Michigan because Ted was opening 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:27.000 for Aerosmith. So so David came out to Arrows. David 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.240 was managing Aerosmith, and he came out and watched Ted 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:37.560 while I and my boss watched Ted because I invited 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.640 my boss to come out and see Ted because I'm okay, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.360 it makes a question. Who is your boss? Uh? Steve 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:49.720 Popovitch at that time. Um, the former boss was Don Ellis, 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.960 who had gone over to our c A and Steve 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.920 Popovitch came up and he said, Worman, what what have 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.560 you been doing here for six years? And I said, well, 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.640 I tried to sign blah blah blah. And he said, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.440 is there any when you were interested in? Now? I said, well, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.480 actually Ted nugent Um. I didn't know much about Ted 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:16.360 at all, but um, you know his manager. Uh, this 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.960 this guy, Louke Fundaman nice man came in and said, hey, 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.200 Ted new did it is available? He played me a 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.760 little something, and I thought this was pretty good. So 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.800 I went to Chicago to see Ted play in a 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:34.240 very half empty auditorium at Illinois Institute of Technology, and 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.479 he was superb. Now we didn't talk politics. I want 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:42.640 to make that very clear, very clear. The whole time 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.520 I knew Ted, you know that we worked together, which 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:52.600 was five years. Um, we got along famously and the 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.840 subject of politics actually never came up because there was 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:03.480 nothing controversial back then. Um. So I enjoyed Ted. He 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.360 was appreciative. We worked very well together. A little bit slow. Okay, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.080 go back to the story. So you went in as 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:15.799 co producer and you were making suggestions continue from there. Well, um, 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.080 you know, I actually didn't go in as co producer. 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.600 I went in as the label guy, you know, the 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:23.880 guy from the label D A and R Man who 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:30.200 was overseeing the project. And um, by the end, lou 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.640 Futterman mixed the record. I wasn't for some reason, I 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.960 wasn't around for the home mix. I didn't like it. 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.760 So I asked my boss could I have another five 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:47.000 thousand dollars to remix this record? And he agreed. I 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.960 went down to Atlanta to where we made the record, 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:55.080 and I remixed the record with the engineer and it 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.400 went platinum, and not necessarily because of my mix, but 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:04.000 it went nevertheless. And you know that means in the 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:11.240 record industry, Bang, you're a producer. You're beautiful, babe. So uh, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.440 you know that. I continued in the office for a 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:20.680 few months, and then the Cheap trick of Project came up, 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:28.040 and and that was in color a little bit slower certainly. Uh, 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:30.600 if you were an in house guy, which you were, 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:37.120 did you get royalties on the records? Good question. We 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:42.200 didn't get a piece back then because it was our 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.000 job description. You know, you go out and you find 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:52.880 us acts. I did get um a nickel for for 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.760 every ten Newgent record we sold, and then I think 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:01.840 they've moved me up to twelve cents on um Cheap 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:07.280 trick Um. But this was a gift. There was no contract. 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.880 There was no agreement between me and the label for 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.640 me to get a royalty. Somewhere in the mid nineties. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.120 It was a very big success right off the bad, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.240 huge debut album, and it made the A and R guy, 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:27.960 you know, a millionaire instantly because they had instituted the 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:35.320 practice of cutting us in giving us a piece. Okay, Uh, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.800 so let's go to a cheap trick. So you who 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:45.560 did sign cheap trick? I did. But Jack Douglas called 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:51.800 me two recommend to request that I go see them, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:57.480 and uh, I love Jack Douglas. He had made Rocks, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.760 the Aerosmith album, which I thought was among the best ever, 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:08.080 uh in terms of American rock and roll. So um, 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.040 I hopped on a plane, went right out to see 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:17.600 them in this little town in Illinois and we're from Rockford. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:22.080 They were from Rackford, and they were playing in a 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:27.560 strip mall in a club packed, and um, you know 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.720 they were they were amazing. They were really really amazing. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:37.160 So again I brought out my boss and we signed them, 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.840 and Jack made their first record, which was really a 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:47.160 great record, but not terribly commercial. Um, and I, you know, 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.840 I did the second record because Jack was busy with Aerosmith, 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:58.520 and I, you know, I as as a staff producer 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:05.079 in the day of FM and a M. I felt 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:12.120 that it was my assignment to get bands on AM 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:17.320 radio and get them hit singles because you know, it's 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.480 sold a ton of albums. So um, I made a 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.719 more commercial record, which was in color, and and then 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:31.520 I was I was irreversibly a producer because they Okay, 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.320 let's let's stop with in Color. I believe in Color 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.760 is the best cheap trick record. The one that Jack 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.680 Douglas made to start was darker. It had Mandicello, etcetera. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:48.000 You made in Color. You certainly made Heaven Tonight, which 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.160 no one ever talks about taking me back, which I love. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:57.880 But after that the band became heavier and from scuttle. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.440 But they may have not have been happy with your 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.600 let's just call it more commercial sound, but that was 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:10.800 their definitive statement. That's right. Well, look, you know several 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.559 bands have well they slap you on the back in 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.040 high five you when they're selling gazillions of records, and 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.600 twenty years later you sucked. Um. You didn't capture their sound. 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:28.199 You were too lightweight. Again, I'm a pop guy. I 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:33.080 did not ask to be pigeonholed in metal or hard rock. 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.000 I enjoy it. I enjoy a lot of it. But 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:43.480 you know, I've had some disagreements in the press with 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:49.640 with Rick who said, you know why, he didn't know 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:53.480 anything about the piano on I want you to want me. 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.480 That's that's just not true. I'm not going to get 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:02.559 into that. I shouldn't get into that now. But UM, 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.760 I made hit singles. I tried to make hit singles. 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.559 UM the bands. I I felt that if I got 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:14.520 them on the radio, UM, and then they would get 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.160 the attention of a large audience and then they could 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.840 do what they wanted. UM. So that's what it did. Okay, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.600 let's start with the in color. Let's go in depth. 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:26.800 So what is the process. They've made their first record, 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:30.520 they've gotten some notice, not commercially successful. How do you 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.320 so Jack is doing it? You tell the band you 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.760 want to produce it or how does it end up happening? 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:42.000 And do they immediately agree? Well, they asked me actually 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:46.600 to to to produce it. With the blessing of H. 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:52.199 Bruce Lundball, who was then the president of CBS Records. UM. 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.760 I was actually in the process of preparing to produce 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.960 Eddie Money's first album, UM and I had met with 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.440 Eddie and San Francisco and we were getting ready to 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:11.320 go when this whole cheap Trick needs a producer situation 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:16.199 came up and I met with Bruce and I said, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.160 you know, quite frankly, I would I would rather do 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:24.720 cheap Trick and he said, okay, I can fix it, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:29.480 and he ran interference for me with Bill Graham because 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:37.079 Bill Graham wasn't happy about this. The producer switch. Uh, 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.360 and that was it. We agreed they wanted to record 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.679 in l A. I had never been, but I was game, 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.880 and uh. We went out to to to the record 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.240 plan in l A and and Sound City and we 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.080 made in color. I went out there and I interviewed 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.640 an engineer over the phone. I didn't really know anything 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.440 about recording in l A. Remind me who that engineer was, 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:09.719 Gary Litdinski. We made sixteen records together. And you met 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.400 him over the phone. Yeah, I met him over the phone. 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.679 I interviewed a few guys over the phone, and he 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:22.360 was He was definitely the most modest, the most the funniest. Anyway. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.600 He was a house engineer at the record plant, the 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.960 third Sweet Record Plant in l A, the Fable Record Plant, 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.760 my home away from home, and it was, you know, 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.520 we just had had a wonderful time and continued making 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.400 records for about five or six years. Okay, so let's 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:48.480 go back. Traditionally, the producer creates the budget. Need let's 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.240 just say if the beans from Illinois and you're living 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.480 in New York. Yeah, there's issues of hotel transportation, studio time. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.520 At your level of inexperience, how did you come up 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:03.720 with a budget? You know, I actually don't remember how 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:10.440 we arrived at a budget. Um, but you know we 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.840 were We all went to l A together. We stayed 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:19.440 at the Sunset Marquee, which was cheap at the time. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:25.360 Amazing and um, you know we made a deal. Uh, 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:32.640 Gary booked the studios because I just you know, deferred 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.440 to him about that. You know, there are studios he wanted. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.400 There was a studio he wanted to track in, which 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.880 was Sound City, and then we went back to the 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:48.680 record plant, which he knew intimately two over dubbed and mix. Um, 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:54.160 it wasn't it. You know, the budgets weren't really a 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.680 big problem then they weren't that big. Well, the question 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.760 would be if you wanted more money or spend more money, 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.640 did the label push back? Well, it depended on what 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.280 they heard, you know, if it was developing into something 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.920 really good and you needed you needed to go over 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:19.880 budget like they do in films. Um, usually it was okay, 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.000 it was your asked on the line. You know, so 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.520 you're in l A. They show up, what state there was? 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:32.640 Stay within color? What was the state of the material? Well, 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.840 it was very It was pretty complete, and we had 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.560 a lot of songs to choose from, which is typical 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:46.320 for an album early in the band's career because they 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:52.160 spent ten years writing songs and then, you know, then 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.400 they have a hit record and they have to come 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:59.280 up with twelve more really good songs in three months. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.800 So there was plenty of There was plenty of of 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:07.640 of material to choose from. And so did you rehearse her? 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.120 You just went reading the right in the studio? Well, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.640 I I always um. I listened to their demos, and 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:20.400 I made notes and rearranged some things. It's you know, 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.960 and and we we went into a rehearsal studio. Wait wait, 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.760 wait what might you rear? What did you rearrange? What 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:31.240 level of rearrangement are we talking about? Well, you know, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.000 some typical would be let's um, let's cut the intro 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:41.280 and half um change this UM, go to the ride 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.600 symbol instead of the high hat in the first verse. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.840 We'll add a B three oregon in in the chorus. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:54.680 Let's do this harmony? You you arranged and and maybe 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:59.800 you double the length of the guitar solo and you 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.760 fade instead of having a cold ending anything that occurs 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.320 to you, you know, if you're a good producer. I 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:13.840 think arranging is the is the main part of the gig. Um. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.600 So I would make extensive notes and then we'd go 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.040 into a rehearsal studio with a boom box and we 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.359 would make a rough, um, you know, recordings in the 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:29.320 boom box of the changes we had made the new 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:34.040 version of the song. And uh we would then take 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.720 this little boom box cassette into the studio with us 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.879 so we could refer to it because it was a 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.159 new arrangement and maybe the band had been playing the 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.560 old arrangement for five years, day in and day out. 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:52.159 So so we would use it as a model to 0:17:52.320 --> 0:18:01.040 what to what degree were the bands are open? Yeah? Well, um, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.760 quite a They were quite agreeable, most of them, some 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.680 cheap cheap trick had a lot of As you make 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.680 more and more albums, if you make a second album 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:17.480 or a third album with the band, they almost always 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:24.200 became more involved in you know, in in creative input. Um. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:30.320 Some bands that I worked with really use the studio 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:35.040 as a as a party room and uh, recorded on 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:39.720 the side instead of instead of going to record to 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.520 make a record and partying on the side. But those 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:50.560 bands were distracted more and left much more up to me. Um, 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.919 the bands were usually what we would do. What I 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.719 would do is say, listen, I think we should do this, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.879 let's try it. We try it it. Usually if it 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.359 didn't work, we didn't do it. Um. Regardless of what 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:10.959 bands say, the producer is hired by the band. He 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.800 can be fired, he can be changed. Um, they don't 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:19.400 have to use him for the follow up record. Um. Hm. 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.119 The job of the producer is to help the band 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:27.719 realize its musical vision. And uh. He does not have 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.440 the power to say we're not going to do that 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.919 song or you have to do it this way unless 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:38.240 he's you know, a very very heavy producer, and and 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.440 you don't you know, the band doesn't want to alienate 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.679 him minutes their first record something like that. So Okay, 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.760 where did you get the confidence to make these changes 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:55.280 since you were newbie? Well I didn't. It didn't get 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:59.280 the confidence. But but I think that my ideas were 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.440 good enough that the band you know, considered them ricks 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.959 very smart. This was cheap picks a bunch of smart guys, 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:15.359 very talented, extremely good on on their instruments, and you 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.320 know that I think I think we had a mutual respect. 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:26.320 So every hit you make gives you a little more confidence. 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:32.160 It also it also makes you a little more afraid 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.879 of making a stiff the next time and being discovered 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:40.840 as a complete impostor. Okay, so an album like a 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.720 cheap trick in color. How much rehearsal did you do? 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.480 We probably did h four or five days. Okay, then 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:52.800 you go in the studio. When you go in the studio, 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.080 at that point, I believe there are twelve tracks on 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.000 that record. Have you already whittled it down to twelve 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:00.560 or you cut more than that? You cut more than that, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.439 probably about fifteen or sixteen, and you know pretty quickly 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:09.040 which ones have potential um. In some cases you know 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.200 before you get into the studio which one is the 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:18.960 hit um or the most probable hit UM. So then 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.600 then you cut them down, uh to ten or twelve 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.320 you know, depending on how many you feel you should 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.399 have on the album and what the what the total 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:35.720 time is on both sides. Because that when you made 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:42.360 records that actually affected the level of the record if 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.639 you had a twelve you know, a very very long 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:51.400 uh side, then you just couldn't make it as loud. Um. 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.320 So that was that was a consideration. But after you 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:59.119 got down to your ten or twelve songs, um, again, 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:03.840 you would make a judgment usually and say, okay, these 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.680 are the good ones, let's spend most of our time 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.760 on them. And there there would be one or two turkeys, 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.840 and you would not spend very much time on those. Okay, 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:18.320 what is I say? Would you literally cut as I say? 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.480 There are ten tracks? And in color? Would you actually 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:27.560 cut fifteen? Yes? Okay, and then you would uh, you know, concentrate. Okay. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.480 There are a couple of really big songs in retrospect 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:33.679 on in color? Did you know that I Want You 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:36.760 to Want Me? Was the single? Or Clock Strikes ten? 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:43.200 Or Southern Girls? You know, I I knew I want 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.560 You to Want Me was was very catchy. But but 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.919 again I treated it as a dance hall tune, like 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:56.480 a thirties song with attack piano and finger snaps. Um. 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:02.200 They changed it drastically, you know, for Buddhican or when 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:08.760 when they when they left the studio. Um. So I 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.679 didn't think that that was I can't remember the all 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.560 all the songs on the album uh right now, but 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.600 I don't think I thought that was the single. Well, 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:20.840 needless to say, the album comes out, gets a lot 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:24.359 of presses, love, but there is no hit single. So 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.960 then how do you end up then moving on to 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:33.080 Heaven Tonight. Well, they liked the record and Rolling Stone 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:37.040 named an album of the year, so you know it 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:46.080 was um it had credibility and the manager uh urged 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:49.600 them to uh to stay with me and and that's 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:54.240 what they did, I and and and Heaven Tonight. I 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:59.520 think that's one of the best records I ever produced. Um, 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:02.919 we just got along. We did well, and we thought 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:07.440 that the day would come if we kept at it. Okay, 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:09.359 that album comes out and tell us the story of 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:16.240 Buddha con Well, the story is quick. Um. I wasn't there. 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:23.200 I was finishing Ted's fifth album UH down at Criteria 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:27.760 in Miami, and I had about two weeks to go. 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:32.040 I guess I got a call from uh Lenny Pizze, 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:37.880 who was then Um. Yeah, he called me and he said, listen, 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:43.560 Cheap Trick is going to record in Japan at Buddha 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:49.240 con Um. We want you to go over there. And 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:53.120 and oversee the project. And I said, I can't leave ted. 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:57.160 I'm I'm busy here. I gotta finish this album. And 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:01.360 um so I'm I missed out on a wonderful experience. 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.240 Um you know which which was going. I've been to 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:09.880 Tokyo twice and I really love it. And boy were 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:16.280 they They were loved in Japan. So um that was that. 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:22.240 And and and we when we did Heaven Tonight, I 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:24.360 think it was Heaven Tonight or was it dream Police? 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:28.960 Dream Police that you put on the back burner? That's right, 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:33.200 we did. We finished dream Police in one month start 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:37.119 to finish, which was a real feat at that time, 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:40.960 not not these days, not even twenty years ago, but 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:44.200 in the seventies it was. It was a big deal. 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:47.360 And we we we broke our backs to finish that 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.520 because they were going out on tour and then Boudhican 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:54.760 exploded and they put Dream Police on the shelf for 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.560 eight months and that was that. Okay, to what degree 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.280 were you involved? Because I remember buying Buddhakan as an 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:04.080 import and then they were playing if you want Me 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:07.720 to Want Me, Want you to Want Me? On radio 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:10.880 and then it ultimately had a US release to what 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:14.359 did we were you involved in the album's production? None, 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:20.040 not whatsoever? You were at the label? Whose decision was 0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:23.840 it to release the record in America? Well it was 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:29.200 I can't remember. I can't remember, but obviously it would 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:32.120 have been that it would have been the head of marketing, 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:36.359 the head of of an R, or the head of 0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:42.000 the label Ronald Lexemburg at that time. Um it was. 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.880 It was a huge hit in uh in Japan, so 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:50.600 you know it was it was ours, it was free 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:55.960 and why not? It was an established band. Okay, so 0:26:56.440 --> 0:26:59.920 dream Police comes out and it is not a success 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:04.040 full as he anticipated. It was like the whole world 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:07.440 was primed. I thought the quality was not as good 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.040 in the sales were not as good. What was their 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:14.199 perspective from your eyes? I thought the quality was was 0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:19.840 very good. I thought it was the production values. We're 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:27.040 uh up up to Heaven Tonight. Um Entry Police was 0:27:27.040 --> 0:27:30.879 was a reasonably successful single. I think the album was 0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:35.560 did go platinum. So I don't know what what people expected, 0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:39.840 but uh, it was. It was a hit album. I 0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:44.359 mean all Heaven Tonight, Entry and Police were both platinum, 0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:47.840 so I think it did as well as Heaven Tonight. 0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:51.440 So How did it end with you in Cheap Trick, Well, 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:56.680 it ended amicably, but they decided to go with George Martin, 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:01.800 and I certainly couldn't argue with that. But it turns 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:05.919 out that that that the album they made with George 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:11.439 Martin was a relative stiff UH compared to the albums 0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:15.960 that we had done in terms of sales. It's a 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:20.680 great album, but it it didn't. It didn't certainly didn't 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.960 do what I think everyone expected it to do, especially 0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:30.080 with Sir George's involvement. And I have the greatest respect 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:42.440 for Sir George. Okay, but then they go on their 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:45.000 own journey of producer after producer. How can they will 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:49.120 come back to you? Who knows? Who knows? You know 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:55.720 you can make? I think making three or or more 0:28:55.840 --> 0:28:59.440 albums with with the band for a producer is a 0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:05.240 good run. UM. Many bands in those days went from 0:29:05.480 --> 0:29:10.160 producer to producer every single album they made. Some stayed 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:15.520 with the same UH successful um formula UH for for 0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:19.760 a long time. But I think it's perfectly natural for 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:25.840 UH Motley Crue two switch producers. After three albums with 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:31.640 me for Cheap Trick Um, the only UM see I 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.360 I did five records with Ted and five records with 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:43.680 Molly Hatchett. Um. Leaving those bands, it was my decision. Um. 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:47.560 But if a band chooses to leave, you know, they 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:49.959