WEBVTT - The Scientist and the Shaman: My Egoic Mind 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.000 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:14.120 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.239 My name is Robert Lamb, and this week Julie is 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.439 out on vacation, so we thought we would rerun a 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.919 pair of episodes that we were really proud of, and 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.320 we received a lot of positive feedback from our listeners 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.479 about I'm speaking, of course, of the Scientists and the Shaman. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:34.400 This two parter deals with psychedelics, with the psychedelic compounds, 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.440 electropic compounds that have been with this for ages. Uh, 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.159 their effects on the human mind, and how modern science 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.080 is turning back to some of these substances to see 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:48.680 how they can aid us in understanding how the mind works, 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.800 how to treat various disorders, et cetera. So uh, and 0:00:53.080 --> 0:01:04.520 have a listen to this classic pair of episodes. Just 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:06.679 up front, I want to mention that on this podcast 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.080 and the other Shaman and Scientists podcast that we're putting out, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.120 we are going to be talking about psychedelics, and by 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.880 which I mean psychedelic drugs of it. So just be 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.880 aware we're gonna handle this and a mature science backboned 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.400 since but I know that this subject is probably not 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.800 for everybody, So just a fair warning that that's what 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:27.839 we're gonna be talking about. And we do not advocate 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.039 the use of psychedelic substances and illicit substances at all 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.040 in orged you not to do them. But the science 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.640 behind them is really fascinating. The current scientific investigations of 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:39.800 how they affect our mind and what they can help 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.600 uncover about how our minds work is totally game, totally 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.480 in our wheelhouse. So we just had to cover it. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:48.800 We've covered a little bit in the past, So here 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.000 another couple of slices from that particular cake. Yeah, And 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:53.920 we just couldn't help it because a lot of times 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.280 we talk about what is consciousness and we'll get deeper 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.400 into that question in this podcast, but psychedelics, turns out, 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.000 can help us answer that question or get a little 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:05.200 bit closer to what we think consciousness is. Um. But 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.720 all of this was actually inspired by a talk that 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:10.760 you went to, Yes, and you went to in a 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:16.680 sense yeah, yeah, yeah, via the wonderful recording that you 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.399 took of it. Um. It was a talk at Emory University. Yeah. Yes, 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.200 it was called four I Am the Black Jaguar. Well, 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:24.920 it was part of the four I Am the Black 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.440 Jaguar exhibit, which is an art exhibit they did having 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.600 to do with shamanistic visionary experience in ancient American art. 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.360 So a lot of ancient American art that depicts things 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.600 that that you know, it might be jaguars, it might 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.400 be mushroom men, things of this nature that have something 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.760 to do with shamanistic traditions, particularly as they relate to 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.560 the consumption of psychedelic psychotropic substances. And a lot of 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.160 it too, is this unity with nature and this unity 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.080 of man, or the duality i should say of of 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.000 human and animal, and then the bringing together of these 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.280 different aspects right our humans. And the talk that I 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:06.440 attended was given by Dr Catherine McLean, and also Dr 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.040 Charles Raison was there as well. But McLean is particularly 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.560 interesting because she is involved with some really groundbreaking investigations 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:19.200 at Johns Hopkins where they are looking into again how 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.600 these substances affect the human mind and human consciousness and 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.760 human perceptions and what that can tell us about how 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.440 our brains actually work. Because one of the things she 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.440 pointed out in her talk is that you know, we're 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:37.400 talking about how these things change our consciousness affect our consciousness, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.840 and we already have a difficult time actually saying what 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.840 human consciousness is and how it works. To get back 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.480 to the title of the episode, we're talking about the 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.040 show like the voice she did? So can you do 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.400 that again? Which one the title of not just the episode, 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.680 but of the exhibit for I am the Black Tech War. 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.800 Y see, I was listening to an old Timothy Leary 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:02.000 album earlier to get kind of stoked. Larry was first 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.800 of scientists, then a shaman, and uh, anyway, we're gonna 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.000 get into that a little more. But on the surface 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.280 of things, you have the shaman in one category and 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.640 the scientists and the other. Right, dragging in a lot 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.040 of stereotypes here, but the shaman. You think of the shaman, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.480 you think of somebody that's spiritual. They're ritualistic, they're magical, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.920 their heartfelt, they might have a really long beard and 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.520 varying degrees of robes or no robes at all, right, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.359 man or a woman, man or woman. Then you have 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.680 the scientist, which again can be a man or a woman, 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.440 but logical, meticulous, reasoned um with a certain amount of 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.880 distance between themselves and their their feelings and the subject 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.800 matter they're looking into. So we on the surface of things, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.159 we tend to think of these as very different, different 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.680 people and very different modes of perception when it comes 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.840 to the realities of the world and the realities of 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.960 the mind. But the curious thing, okay, is that all right? 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.200 So the shaman he looks inward, He or she looks 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.599 inward at the mysteries of the soul and human consciousness, 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.520 and so too, of course, does the con and a neuroscientists. So, um, 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.000 you know, the questions of who are we, what's the 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.080 root cause of human suffering? How do we achieve liberation 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.640 from it? How can we treat mental illness? Questions of 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.560 these nature's nature are on various levels covered by both sides. 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.240 So while they're they're very different. If you were to 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.800 form a then diagram, you know, with the two circles 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.080 with partial overlap, and you had one circle as the shaman, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.320 one circle as the neuroscientists, there would be a definite 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.359 overlap there. Now, of course, the shaman helps you explore 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.800 these questions by bringing into a sacred space, producing a 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.640 tray of magical substances that, when consumed, alter your perception. 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.560 Uh an experience of reality, setting you on a journey 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.720 of exploration. Meanwhile, the scientist brings you into a lab, right, 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.440 gives you a pill that might be a placeba, and 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.480 then run some tests on you, maybe throws you into 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.120 a brain imaging machine or hooks you up to some sensors. Right, 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.760 these seem like very different scenarios that one might find 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.560 oneself in. But then there's also some interesting overlap here 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.400 as well, particularly John hop Into University School of Medicine. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.840 That's where again Dr Kathery McClain conducts her research along 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.679 with a very talented assortment of professionals, and they find 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:13.919 themselves not going completely halfway between the shaman and the scientists, 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.159 but entering a little more into that shamanistic territory because 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.240 they keep like a calm, meditative space to put the 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.360 test subjects in when they are given some of these 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.960 likedelic substances. And Kathery McClain in this talk at Emory 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.920 actually spoke a bit about her role as a kind 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.279 of guide for these people too, because they end up 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.039 trying to to color their experiences to a to an extent, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.520 you know, to to guide their trip, as it were, 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:41.960 in a direction that's more positive so that they can 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.320 study it. Yeah, we talked about this a bit in 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:50.720 our podcast about hallucinogens and stage four cancer patients who 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.520 were taking hallucinogens in an effort to try to UM 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.400 get over this huge obstacle of fear that was really 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:02.960 actually um just of affecting them on a level where 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.240 they were like deer in the headlights. They couldn't even 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:09.320 operate in the space of their lives anymore. And so UM, 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.080 you know, we've talked about this idea where in a 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.840 lab setting you want to have a level of trust, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.800 you want to make it as comforting as possible, and 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.160 so the researchers, the scientists are, as you say, taking 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.240 on this persona of guide, of spiritual guide to a 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.800 certain extent, because they have to guide people through this. 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.920 And I think it's really interesting that Kathleen McClain is 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.160 also a Buddhist and she does kind of inhabit that 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.960 space of the Shawoman from time to time, heavy and the 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.040 the meditation and all that. And I can't help to 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.280 think about another past podcast UM having to do with 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:50.200 magicians in neuroscience, because again you've got neuroscience looking at magicians, UM, 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.640 looking at these hundreds of years old practices and trying 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.920 to learn something about reality and illusion and how our 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.640 mind tricks us and what if so central to this 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.200 idea of mind trickery, I think is something called the 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.760 monkey mind. And probably a lot of you out there 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.120 are familiar with this concept that this constant chatter in 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.440 our brains UM can sometimes hamstring us when we're trying 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.000 to accomplish things in our lives. UM. And of course 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.360 this all points back to the question of consciousness and 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.360 this idea about whether or not consciousness is actually a 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.280 static thing. Now McClain and her talk says, I'm not 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.880 quite sure consciousness is something that is coherent, UM. But 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.959 again it's this idea of trying to get into what's 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.680 going on in these three pounds of computation material in 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.800 our brains. UM. She says, you know, it's hard to 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.719 to really try to pin it down and figure out 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.199 what's going on. She says, we can't explain normal consciousness 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.559 in terms of neuroscience, so explaining altered states of consciousness 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:56.480 is even more difficult. And UM, I also wanted to 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.040 point this out too, as we begin to delve into 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:03.080 consciousness and the monkey mind. UM. I've brought this up before. 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.200 There was a study by Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert and 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.760 Matthew Killingsworth, and they actually developed an iPhone app that 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.840 would track people's um waking states and their ability to 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.319 concentrate and so on and so forth and something like 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:25.199 a people participated in this study and what they found 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.680 was that mind wandering is something that takes up half 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.320 of our time. And that seems pretty big, But when 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.200 you step back and you look at it throughout the day, 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.440 you know how, when you're not speaking, when you're not 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:45.000 um doing something that really requires you to fire in 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.720 all four cylinders, what are you doing your daydreaming? Right? 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.720 So hence you've got this monkey mind, and hence you 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.079 have this idea that maybe some of this consciousness points 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.680 back to this chatter in our brains. Yeah. There you 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.280 see that this represented various ways to another um out 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.240 modes of thought. Outside of science, there's always the classic 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.679 vision of the guy with a demon on one shoulder 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.480 and an angel on the other. These little voices that 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.800 are chattering Adam, saying you should be doing this, No, 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.400 you should be doing this. You should steal that candy bar, No, 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.920 you should pay for that candy bar with with hard 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.000 earned money, can you steal it? Um? I always try 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:22.960 and compromise still half of it by the other half, 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.520 you know. But it's the classic more dilemma whether to 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:28.600 to steal the candy bar. But then you also have 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.520 people like new Age guru Akarta who calls it the 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.200 going mind um and you see that term thrown around 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.319 a lot as well, this idea that it's a this 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.160 this mode of thinking that very tied into who I am, 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.480 what my story is. We've talked about that before when 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.880 we're talking about storytelling and the power of storytelling and 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.079 how we all kind of see our lives in this 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.800 mode of story. I am the central character in my story, 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.200 and these are the obstacles I am up against. These 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:54.800 are the things I have achieved, and these are the 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:59.559 things that I've lost. Um. So it's this default mode network, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.200 as it's called in the scientific papers, not to be 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.480 confused with depeche mode network, because that's that would waver 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.880 between just can't get enough in black celebration. Whereas the 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.080 default mode network is again this this this sort of 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:16.560 idle thinking zone, and you know, it's it's in it's 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.080 better states. It's introspective. It's daydreaming, and it's worst states, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.120 it's depressive. It's that that demon on your shoulder beating 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:24.880 you up and saying, oh, these are the things that 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.400 that I don't have anymore, These are the things about 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.640 me that suck and and and I'm never going to 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.240 succeed in this kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, this 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.280 is where when we start talking about consciousness and defining 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.080 the eye of ourselves, you start to look at the 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.480 default mode network, because this is where you have your 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.200 pastiche of memories, feelings, and thoughts and again that chatter 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.760 that me, me, me. What we're talking about when we 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.880 talk about the default mode network is the medial prefrontal cortex, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.480 the medial parietal cortex, and the medial temporal lobes. And 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.559 the idea there's a couple of different theories about what 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.040 they're doing ing um. The idea is that these associations 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.720 between these different parts of the brain are the brain's 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:10.360 baseline of processing and information, where we consolidate experiences and 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.600 we prepare to react to the environment. The second theory 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.920 is that it also facilitates stream of conscious thought, also 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.079 known as stimulus independent thought, which I think is really 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.840 interesting to know stimulus independent thought, meaning you're not even 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.760 aware of your surroundings. You're just chattering, chattering, chattering to me. 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:30.840 I think of it as like, you know, driving to 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.600 work every day and I pulled into the parking lot 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:36.400 and go, oh, how did I get here? I don't 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.920 really have a memory of that because I was so 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.120 consumed with my own thoughts. Um. So sort of stuff 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.720 that you see in daydreaming. Again, keep in mind that 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.439 half of our day is spent in the state of daydreaming. 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.520 Um and it's important that here right also totally takes 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.040 you out of your surroundings. You know, like on your 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.880 your drive to work, we've kind of go into autopilot 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.199 mode and suddenly you're there because it's like you weren't 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.360 actually on that drive to work. You were wrapped up 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.600 in these thoughts of what happened yesterday or what's going 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.240 to happen and with the rest of your day, uh, 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.640 totally wrapped up in your thought life. You everything else 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.480 in your surroundings, be it you know, the the highway 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.160 on the drive to work, or a beautiful park or 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.160 the love of your family, all of it just kind 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.880 of fades as this inner dialogue kicks up, and by 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.520 pointing out the parts of the brain, I think that's 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.319 the really amazing part here is that you know, on 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.240 one hand, we're talking about the devil and angel on 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.400 your soldiers. We're talking about grasping in the Buddhist sense 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.480 for for things that you want or don't have, and 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.160 and all of this this inner and kind of spiritual stuff. 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.800 But we can actually look at the brain and look 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.320 at the part the network that lights up when the 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.440 when this kind of thinking takes place right. And this 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.760 this kind of thinking does need to happen right because 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.319 it is balancing the sense of self and this ego 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.360 and again it's giving us some sort of um consciousness 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.880 or idea of ourselves through this process. The problem, of course, 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.360 is when there's hyperactivity in this area. It's like like 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.080 when a dog has some sort of problem on its scan. Right, 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:05.880 it's gonna lick, it's gonna know a little bit. But 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.520 then it gets out of hand when that gnawing and 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.640 that looking never stops, when it turns into self harm. 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.040 And certainly we see that time and time again in 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.640 patients of a variety of mental problems, where we see 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:21.040 that that see this heightened activity in this default mode network. Yeah, 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.080 and according to Dr Charles Frey Salam, who is also 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.200 part of that talk, people with depression exhibit hyperactivity in 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.800 the default mode network. So, as you say, it's fascinating 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.800 because you can literally point to that brain scan and 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.120 you can see that hyperactivity and you can see that 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.760 it's the cause of some of this depression. Because now 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.520 think about that chattering in this UM, this idea of 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:46.880 that that chattering is absolutely involved with self and worry. 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.200 So what you have going on is is this sort 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.920 of midline chatter that is encouraging a person to turn inward. 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.880 And then in addition to that hyperactive default mode network, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.880 it becomes more and more entangled with the anterior singulate cortex, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.520 which is responsible for the fear response. So not only 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.560 do you have this turning in word, you now have 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.800 a fear factor that's involved, and this can contribute really 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:16.280 heavily to depression. Yeah, all right, we're gonna take a 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:27.200 quick break. Stay tuned for more. So we bring all 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:31.400 of this up because this is really important in terms 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:38.760 of UM some experiments with hallucinogens and perhaps relieving this depression. 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.160 This quieting the default mode network as well as meditation. Right, 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.320 and before we get that, do of course need to stress. 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.760 The thing about the default mode network is that under 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.000 normal situations, it's more active during rest than it is 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:55.080 during cask performance. So it's it's when you're in that uh, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.440 that easy state of driving to work a road that 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.920 you travel every day, or you're waiting on something, you're 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.320 sitting around, it's it's like the screen saver of your mind. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.720 But if you're busy, if you are just vigorously trying 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.880 to get something done at the last minute, or you're 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.080 in that state of flow the job or a hobby 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.880 that you love, or certainly if you're engaging saying yoga 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.320 where you're you're totally in your body and not in 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.120 your mind, we see that network shut down to a 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.640 certain extent. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.680 there is this idea of getting outside of yourself. Right, 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:28.960 So if you're doing something that's in the state of flow, 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.240 then you're getting outside of that chatter and that that 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.520 mind and you're quieting the default mode network. Now, this 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.360 is where we're gonna get a little more back into 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.720 into psychedelics. And I just want to do a quick 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.320 note about the nature of psychedelicist reminded about what we're 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.120 talking about here. Okay, uh, for the most part, especially 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:49.120 as far as shamanistic practices go, you know, ancient spiritual 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.960 practices that date back long before ability to create synthetic drugs. 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:58.640 We're talking about naturally occurring substances such as psilocybin, mushrooms, iowa, 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.600 sa vines. We're talking about peyote, cacti and other naturally 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:07.920 occurring psychoactics, after substances in vegetation, in animals, uh, you know, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.080 code centipedes, what have you. And then when taken, they 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.880 have the potential to alter vulturally every level of awareness 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.720 and experience. Now, some of you listening may have had 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.120 some sort of experiences with this kind of altered state 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.399 of mind, either naturally occurring or due to illness or 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.560 any other lucid dreaming that sometimes dreaming and sometimes in 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.280 this character. But for for a lot of a lot 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:30.920 of other people, you may think you may hear about, 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.160 you know, tripping on psychedelics, and you instantly think of 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:35.360 the movie Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, or any 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.560 number of movies that have attempted to show an altered 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.560 state of awareness and perception. It's kind of kind of 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.960 like Hollywood tripping. And it's important to note that while yes, 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.720 if one took enough of certain hallucinogens, they could have 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:54.200 this kind of very visual, crazy fantastic experience of dinosaurs 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.360 climbing out of the walls and all that. Yes, that's 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.560 that's possible, but that's not that in and of itself 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.600 is just like one slice of the cake. There are 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.119 a lot of other modes of perception and modes of 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.439 understanding that can be altered by psychedelics. We're talking about 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.720 changes in your awareness of your own body, of visual peculiarities, 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:17.399 audible peculiarities, strangeness and thought, and perception in the experience 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:21.399 of time and self. So pretty much any way that 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.879 we think or see the world can be tweaked, you know, 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.200 because what we talked again earlier, like what is consciousness? 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.119 All right, Well, what do we know about how we 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:31.640 think and what our brain is. We know that their 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.600 chemical processes, that biological processes, and it's subject to change. 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.320 You can change the way you think by looking at 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.160 a puppy or or a cat. We've talked about that before. 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.320 They're there are all sorts of ways to tweak what 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.800 you're experiencing and how you're experiencing the world, and how 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.879 you're constructing this world that you perceive. We talked about, 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.520 you know, the whole child versus adult. The child has 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.920 this lamplight view of the world and then the human 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.240 has the flashlight view. I mean, all of this is 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:03.160 we're talking about changes in perception and these substances. Depending 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.399 on what a person takes, how much they take, and 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:11.520 also an individual's particular biochemistry, it'll it'll affect that person 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.320 on varying levels. Yes, So I think it's interesting to 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.399 introduce it like that because there are various ways, as 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:19.560 you say, we can change our perception, and you can 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:21.240 sort of do it a little bit or a lot, 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.919 and certainly through something like psilocybin, that is something that 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.360 will get you into that spot where you are sort 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.480 of blowing open the doors of perception. And that is 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.399 why scientists use it, because they are trying to figure 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.760 out how it is interacting with the brain, what it's 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.840 doing um to personality as well. So we talked about 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.879 the default mode network and depression. Then it makes sense 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.280 that neuroscientists want to look at psilocybin and see what 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.320 sort of effect it has on the human brain. Yeah. Now, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.440 another interesting thing about research into this, and we've stepped 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.240 in this in the past, and around the mid fifties, 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.119 that's when science really got that interested in psychedelics and 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.080 and that's also you know, you saw the advent of 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.840 LSD in that age, and you also saw of course 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.480 the rise of the counterculture and all that. So by 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.520 the end of the nineteen sixties you saw the the 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.240 end of actual research into this because it started off 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.200 people were looking into, Okay, what are these chemicals doing, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.240 how are they affecting the mind? And then you have 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:19.840 Timothy Leary out there, but you know, again initially approaching 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.880 things from a more scientific standpoint, but then becoming more 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:24.760 and more of a cultural figure and more of the 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.679 shaman and less of the scientists. And then eventually you 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.280 have people like John C. Lily who are just taking 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.880 LSD in there in the tank next to the apartment 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.000 in which the dolphin lives, so that he can communicate 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.960 with the dolphin people, and and subsequently losing his funding 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.000 because eventually it just gets so nunny that they pull 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.320 his funding. So you're right, it starts to get clouded 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.720 with this idea that it's not a good idea to 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:52.920 research this culturally, politically, it just falls off until basically, 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.280 I'm saw the dawn of the twenty one century and 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.080 and so we that's where we are now a decade 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.760 and some change into that. Yeah, then these really saw 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:02.879 a resurgence in this and particularly the last couple of 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.199 years too. We've seen a ton of data coming online 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.640 about this UM. But when we talk about the default 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.000 mode network and depression and psilocybin, it's important to talk 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.119 about someone named David Jane Nutt. He's a psychiatrist at 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.800 the Imperial College of London, and his team recruited fifteen 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.200 healthy people, people that they made sure to scan beforehand 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.919 and that they are sort of thing that they were 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.360 sound and mind and body UM. And then they also 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.080 wanted to make sure that these people had previous experience 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.840 taking hallucinogens. This is key and this is something that 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.760 McLean brought up in her talk as well. Because you're 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.399 bringing people into experiment UM, you know how their brains 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:43.879