1 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: That's a horrible way to begin. It could happen here. 2 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: That's how we start a podcast. And Robert Evans podcast, 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Things falling apart, put them back together, all that good stuff. 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Co hosts here today Garrison Davis, our our our buddy Chris, 5 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: and of course the great Saint Andrew, Andrew Blessing take 6 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: it away, Good morning, and in case I don't see you, 7 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: good afternoon, good evening, and good night. Speaking of the 8 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: Truman shoe, solid reference, well done, Thank you. I wanted 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: to spend today's episode discussing a concept that has been 10 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: brought up in the work of James C. Scott and 11 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: Christopher Ryan, the idea of human domestication. And before people 12 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: start clicking off, I'm not going to go all and 13 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: pri him or anything, you know, It's just I think 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: it's an interesting thing to think about. I think that 15 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: Scott explores it in a very interesting way in chapter 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: two of Against the Green, and so relating as I 17 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: guess to the Truman Show, because I mean, why did 18 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: I bring it up? Truman lives in a suburban picket 19 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: fence American dream dome of a world that's meant to 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: keep him, you know, contained and content and ignorant about 21 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: the fact that he's on a TV show. Truman has 22 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: trapped in this wound that he kind of conformed too, 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: but he can't escape, at least initially, and so you 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: could tell that you know, there's something wrong, and he 25 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: probably felt that way for a long time. It's only 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: over the course of the movie that he develops a 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: sufficient awareness of his condition to leave home and become 28 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: a true man, Thank you very much. Holy alright, alright, 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: good episode, guys. Um and humans like Truman have been 30 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: stewards and cultivators of the natural environment for a long time, right, 31 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: one of the only creatures who do that. By the way, 32 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: I see a lot of people who see who kind 33 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: of like adopt this assumption that he wants just like 34 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: imposing our will on the environment that is otherwise unscathed 35 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: by our presence and all that. And I mean, yeah, 36 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: we do a lot of very very terrible stuff the environment, 37 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: but a lot of our actions are also beneficial. And 38 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: we have the only creatures to shape and sometimes harm 39 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: and sometimes benefit the natural environment. I mean beavers, elephants, 40 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: prairie dogs, bees, and tom not to mention the networks 41 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: of trees and other plants that all manipulate the environments 42 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: to soothe them and there comfort and their survival. You know, 43 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: but there's no nature as we know it as we 44 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: see it um that sort of untouched wild idea without 45 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: the activities of humans. You know, humans have been planting 46 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: seeds and tubers, shaping the evolution of many plants species, 47 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: burning and desirable flora, weeding out, competition, pruning, thinning, trimming, transplanting, mulching, relocating, bark, ringing, compassing, watering, 48 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: and futilizing. And for animals, you know, we have hunted 49 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: even selectively, you know, spared females or reproductive age, or 50 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: hunted based on life cycles, or fish selectively managed streams 51 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: to promote spawning and shellfish beds, you know, transplanted the 52 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: eggs and young of birds and fish, and even raised 53 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: juveniles in some cases. That's kind of how we ended 54 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: up domest skating a lot of animals. And I'm gonna 55 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: get into that. So through fire, through plow, through hunting, 56 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: through a whole array of different activities, humans have domesticated 57 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: whole environments. You know, well before you know the full 58 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: the full society is based on you know, fully domesticated 59 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: wheat and barley, and goats and sheep. The spectrum of 60 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: subsistence moods that we have utilized, whether we're hunting, foraging, pastoralism, 61 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: or farming, have existed and complemented each other, you know, 62 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: sort of harmony. Millennia and I mean those of you 63 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: who have read don't have everything. You kind of see 64 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: that picture coming into shape as it progressed through the book. 65 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: But of course James C. Scott also discussed it years 66 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: before in Against the Green so as he says, enter 67 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: the Domas, just as we transformed our landscapes, we transformed ourselves. 68 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: The Domas was a unique and unprecedented concentration of tilled fields, 69 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: seed and green stores, people and domesticated animals and hangers 70 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: on like mice and rats and covids, all co evolving 71 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: with consequences no one could have possibly foreseen. You know, 72 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: dogs and pigs and cats, all of them. Their entire 73 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: evolution was shaped by their relation to this dom and 74 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: humans are not the exception. Of course, there's some animals 75 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: that easier to domesticate than others, which is why you 76 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: don't see people commonly riding or hooding zebras and gazelle 77 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,119 Speaker 1: um they will make the best cattle or ride um 78 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: and probably knock your brains out if you tried. So 79 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: it's probably best to stick to the ones that we 80 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: have sort of who evolved with, like you know, llamas 81 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: and goats and sheep and pigs and over generations, you 82 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: see the domesticated creatures, unlike their wild counterparts, developer level 83 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: of submissiveness and a decreased awareness of their surroundings. Right, 84 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: So that emotional dampening is basically a condition of life 85 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: because when you're in that domas you know, yeah on 86 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: the human supervision, that instant reaction to predator and you know, 87 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: pray they no longer the most powerful pressures. Because you're 88 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: in this sort of cultivated environment, your physical protection and 89 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: nutrition is more secure than it would be in a 90 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: more wild environment. So the mestigated animal is less allude 91 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: to its surroundings, less away of its surroundings than its 92 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 1: cousins in the wild. UM. And we could see as well, 93 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: you know, with human sidenters, there's also been a reduction 94 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: mobility UM and that of course had consequences for health. 95 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: To be very honest with you, I was actually kind 96 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: of consumed about covering this and I was trying to 97 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: figure out how to cover this um in a way 98 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't make me look like I'm trying to like 99 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: retire into the deeps of Amazonia or something. Yeah, I 100 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: just I find it interesting to think about her environments 101 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: shape us. Yeah, absolutely, I mean you can think about 102 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: these things without becoming a hermit and hiding in the woods. 103 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: As as as attractive as an idea as that, well, 104 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: yeah for sure, for sure. I mean like I have 105 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: this like kind of canon in my head, you know, 106 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: like the whole idea of multi verses. Yeah. I figured 107 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: somewhere in the multiverses a version of myself we have 108 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: retired into the forest and gone through this whole kind 109 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: of like anime training arc and emerged as this like 110 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: one punchman beast of a human. I would I would. 111 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: I would also like to be that tipeline. I think 112 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: that would be very interesting, like a train so either 113 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: all my hair falls out, able to snap trees with 114 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: just a breath. It is like, yeah, the the the 115 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: the quintessential wildman. That's yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's 116 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: also multiverse version of me where I'm president or something. 117 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: It would be pretty interesting to see, Like I should 118 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: be kind of cool. I just had an idea of 119 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: like this, um, this team of versions of oneself that 120 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: team up to like fight the evil versions of themselves 121 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: across the multiverse. It's kind of like kind of the Conqueror, 122 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: except I think in most versions of the multiverse, he 123 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: is evil. Yes, I have, I've definitely, I've definitely read 124 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: that comic before of the good Ones fighting the bad Ones. 125 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the Injustice comics and video games are pretty 126 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: pretty pretty big, pretty big staples of that genre. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 127 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: of course an Injustice it's different characters, Whereas it will 128 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: be interesting to see like a cast that's all just 129 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: one person, just like the same dude, the exact same person, 130 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: but they all grew up in such different environments. Even 131 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: though they share the exact same DNA, they're like different people. 132 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: It would be an interesting commentary on society because we 133 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: do live in one. After all, we do live in 134 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: a society for better for worse. Yeah, But anyway, like 135 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm saying, you know, environments shape us. We shape environments, 136 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: and to me, we need to start shaping our environments again, 137 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: so we could either shape up or chip out of 138 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: existence as a species, right, Um, you know, because the 139 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: way the trajectory were on is not sustainable. Um. So 140 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: we can see, of course, in this transition to domas um, 141 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: the sedentary, green growing sort of community that you know, 142 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: in archaeological studies of the bones of the inhabitants, you 143 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: could see like repetitive stress injuries shaping their bodies, you know, 144 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: like the skeletal signatures of like grinding grain and you know, 145 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: like ah, cutting and sewing and kneeling and bending and 146 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: moving in you know, very repetitive ways, you know. And 147 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: of course with these concentrations of people, we also see 148 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: like epidemics and stuff and parasites starting to fester not 149 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: just within humans or just not just within species, but 150 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: also like cross species pathogens and stuff. Yeah, you know. 151 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: And so as we all on this kind of same arc, 152 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: sharing this micro environment, sharing our gyms and parasites, you 153 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: end ups getting more and more brutal versions of like 154 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: wild diseases, you know, because they basically go through the 155 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: the iron quantlet of you know, like that the disease 156 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: thunder doom, We're only one could come out as Victoria's 157 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: and so they battled out and became these more refined 158 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: and more severe forms, which is why you see in 159 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: Europe where they had this high population densities, they the 160 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: diseases that developed there when they were introduced to the 161 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: coote and quote New World. You know, the really ravaged 162 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: population that didn't really live on that level of density. 163 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: Not to say they didn't have cities, because they did. 164 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: The had cities and villages and collaborations and such a 165 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: people spanning across like large areas, but it wasn't organized 166 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: in quite the same way. It wasn't generalizing quite fairly. 167 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: But you know, it's two whole continents. UM. We also 168 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: see that like ye, nutritional stress starts to develop in 169 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: the bones and teeth of um more quote domiciled humans. UM. 170 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: You see like I and deficiency anemia in people whose 171 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: diets were consisting increasingly of grains and you know, as 172 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: I said told, you know, their diets became narrower, you know, 173 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: less variety UM in both plants and proteins. And so 174 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: that ended up leading to you know, like declining tooth 175 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: size and reduction in statue and skeletal robustness. And of 176 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: course this change and like our physiology and dimorphism as 177 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: a history such as like a lot fool of the 178 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: pact than just in ulithic, but sidentis um and crowding 179 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: definitely left and immediate and legible mark on the archaeological record. 180 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: I do find it interesting. Um. I read this book 181 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: I think last year called Botany of Desire, and in 182 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: it the guy um what's his name? And in it 183 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: Michael Pollan talks about all the plans we thought we 184 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: were domestigating. Domesticated us too, you know, because if you 185 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: think about it, you know, you up in the garden 186 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: on your hands and knees, day after day, sun and rain, 187 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: reading and fertilizing and untangling, protecting and reshaping an environment 188 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: just to suit you little tomato plants. He'll potato plant, 189 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: and I mean the plant kind of hasn't made you know, Um, 190 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: they don't have to worry about the sort of things 191 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: they would usually have to worry about outside of the domas. 192 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 1: You know, you were there to make sure that their 193 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: competitors are weeded out. You were there to make sure 194 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: they get all the nutrients they need. You're there to 195 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: make sure that do insects and stuff come and like 196 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: ravage them, and you even help to fuutilize them as well. 197 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: And so you know, it's kind of like I want 198 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: to say, uh, mutual relationship because as you know, these 199 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: domesticated plants have continued long this path of domestication. A 200 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: lot of them can no longer thrive without our help. 201 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: And in the same way, you know, we can't just 202 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: not go on without them. You know, we also are 203 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: dependent on like a handful of domesticated cultivars. Like we 204 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: can't just certainly switch and just be like, oh, we're 205 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: not gonna grow wheat and corn and potatoes anymore. But 206 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: I mean that's been the foundation of all diets for 207 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: too long. Now. That's what you know, most of our 208 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: food production back you don't have percentages, I won't say most, 209 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: or just say a lot of our food production is 210 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: like centered around that, and so um, you know, we 211 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: can't just jump out to that, especially with the population increases, 212 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: so you just have grown increasingly reliant on a few 213 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: like grains and cereals, um and starches. So yeah, we 214 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: do we need them more than they need said a 215 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: lot of senses. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, because I mean 216 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: a lot of them they do still have like wild 217 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: counterparts that can always you know, take over. It's just 218 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: a wild counterparts generally less appetizing than the ones you've 219 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: gotten used to. I'm sure a lot of people have 220 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: seen that picture of the different types of bananas out there, um, 221 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: or you know, the different types of cooling out there. Um. 222 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: Of course, a lot of corn species that are edible 223 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: because you know they were cultivated in massive America. UM. 224 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: I would like to try them, be because the corn 225 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: that I've grown up with gotten used too much of 226 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: what it's called. But I don't like it. Um. I 227 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: find the texture and taste of it to be kind 228 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: of lack of a vet would revolting. So I mean, like, 229 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: and I've been this way for like a long long time, right, 230 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: Like I growing up used to be refusing to eat 231 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: like an entire plate of food because it had corn 232 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: in it. I didn't like one. And if people used 233 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: to point out the irony and the fact that I 234 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: would readily eat like corn pie, what would eat popcorn? 235 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: What would eat like corn bread? Yeah? But to me, 236 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: it's it's not the same, you know, like corn on 237 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: the cob and and stuff is it's not the same. 238 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: And so like I've tried some some different types of corn, 239 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: Like I've tried it was kind of like soft baby 240 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: corns that they're get in like soup songs. Oh yeah, 241 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: and those delicious you know, I wouldn't such your sights 242 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: too much on those various corn varieties because one of 243 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: the oldest ways of eating corn before we had really 244 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: nice soft kernels. One of one of the oldest ways 245 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: is we would we would take we would take the 246 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: heart the hard corn kernels, um pop them inside a 247 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: inside like a frying pan to make this tart expand 248 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: then crush that up and mix it with like a 249 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: liquid to have a very disgusting, starchy gruel. And that 250 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: was the way that we ate corn for a long time. 251 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: And eventually that was eventually we were able to to 252 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: like um like tortise and stuff. But for a long 253 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: time it was just kind of corn rule. Yeah, this 254 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: was this was a problem. This was a major problem 255 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: during the Irish potato famine because in short, the potato 256 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,479 Speaker 1: crops failed um and so the British government imported a 257 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: bunch of what they called Indian corn at the time, 258 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: which was corn grown in the Ad States um. And 259 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: this was even though Irish people were growing plenty of 260 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: corn to feed themselves, but that corn was being exported um, 261 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: and the Indian corn was seen that it was harder, 262 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: so it was seen as of lower quality. So they 263 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: had to develop a bunch of methods of grinding it down, 264 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: and eventually the government was just like, hey, just soak 265 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: it for like several days and then boil it in 266 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: water for hours and add some milk or some grease 267 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: if you have it. And some of the problems that 268 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: costes that, like the Irish people were starving to death, 269 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: and because when you're starving to death, your your stomach 270 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: is not as hardy as it is when you're not 271 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: starving to death, and so the corn, even after being boiled, 272 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: would cut their stomachs and there is some feel lining 273 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: and cause like in some cases people would like die. Um. 274 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, corn, see I could I could add that's 275 00:18:52,440 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: my reasons to despise corn, like anti Irish violins. I'm 276 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: gonna I will briefly ranch about corn subsidies. People think 277 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: I've actually done that on the show. Yet there's there's 278 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a thing about that'll be high 279 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: traffic domess. That's like like in terms of sort of domestication, 280 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: in terms of human domestication, you know, and in terms 281 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: of the the extent to which we're being shaped, you 282 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: have to be I think, very careful to make sure 283 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: that you're attributing agency to the thing that actually has agency, 284 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: because there's there's a tendency to sort of attribute stuff too, 285 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: you know, Okay, well, this is just a way the 286 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: technical process works. And because this is the way the 287 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: technical process works, here are the social structure is that 288 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: inevitably results out of it. And that's true to some extent. 289 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: But you know, for example, like if if we're talking 290 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: about like whose domestic and whom we look at corners like, well, yeah, 291 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: because we growing and grow an enormous amount of corn. 292 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: But it's not because of sort of like like that 293 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: that's the reason we have so much corn is entirely political. 294 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: It's entirely about the fact that, like there's a corn 295 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: lobby in the US that is enormously powerful. And because 296 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: of the way the Senate works and because of the 297 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: way sort of like the primaries work, you have to 298 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: be pro corn. And this means that the American corn 299 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: industry has billions and billions of dollars and subsidies that 300 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: like this is this is like the only thing every 301 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: economist across the entire political spectrum agrees on like you 302 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: will you will get like the Heritage Foundation agreeing with 303 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: like Marxists who are agreeing with like like that the 304 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: standard LiPo comes. Everyone agrees this is awful to free 305 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: trade people agree with this, the anti free trade people 306 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: agree with this, and it just sticks there because of 307 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: you know, because because because of a very sort of 308 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: a very contingent set of political processes. And I think 309 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 1: that that's something that's important to keep in mind when 310 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: you're thinking about stuff like domestication, which is that like, yes, 311 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: on the one hand, it is true that you are 312 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: being shaped by the production process, but it's also true 313 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: like for example, you know, if you go back to 314 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: the women in the story who you know, you can 315 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: see in in their bones right that they've been sort 316 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: of like bending over like husking crops and stuff. Wells 317 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: like well, that that it's true to some exat that's 318 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: that's because of the production process. But the production process 319 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: works like that because of social reasons, like okay, like 320 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: why is it women doing this work? Right? Like there's 321 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: there's always simultaneously sort of human constructive social systems operating 322 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: at the same time as you have these mechanical systems, 323 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: and people love to attribute all of it to the 324 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: mechanical systems in a way that loses you know it 325 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: it naturalizes things that are bad and could actually be changed, 326 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: and loses the capacity for sort of well yeah, I 327 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: mean our sort of culpability and both the fact that 328 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: it could be different than the fact that we do 329 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: it this way. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but it's still 330 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: I think it's still important to like think about like 331 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: how reliant we still are on it as a resource 332 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: in terms of like maze and like you know, corn 333 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: syrup and like getting like glucose get like, like it's 334 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: so we rely on it for so many facets beyond 335 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: just eating like a corn on the cob, and like, yeah, 336 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of it's like it's like a it's like 337 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: a it's like a figure right infinity loop here that 338 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: we've kind of we've we've kind of like tied ourselves 339 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: into a knot. Um. Yeah, but I'm saying like, like like 340 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff also has to do with 341 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: the fact, like you know, part of the reason that 342 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: there's we use corn syrup is they were like taxes 343 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: on sugar and you could get you can get around 344 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: and then has all there's all these like yeah, there's 345 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: all these sort of feedback cycles of like we become 346 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: dependent on something because of a social process, but now 347 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: we're dependent on the physical process. And it's yeah, I mean, 348 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: so you can you can like tie this into the 349 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: idea of like, once you switched over to large scale agriculture, 350 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: we need to kind of have somebody that that governs 351 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: how it works, because now we're no longer reliant on 352 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: smaller more like individualized farms or forest farming. We're instead 353 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: reliant on a bigger you know, like a bigger stake 354 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: in the land. So if that fails, we're all more 355 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: in trouble. Now, agriculture does not equal sieve. That's not 356 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: that's not an actually sound um and the like like anthropology, 357 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: Like if if you look at the anthropology, that's actually 358 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: not a superstand argument. I think you can you can 359 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: read the the not of everything that makes they make 360 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: that point pretty clear. But still when you do have 361 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: when you do have a large population relying on very 362 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: few like um, very large crop like like of only 363 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: a small diversity of large crops, and there's a lot, 364 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot, there's a lot more stakes on it, 365 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: So you're gonna you know, there's gonna be processes that 366 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: are going to have like authority, authoritative, hierarchical elements to 367 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: help organize those crops so that they don't get you know, famines, 368 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: which of course if you look at Maos China you 369 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: can see that worked out very well. Yeah, and I 370 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: should note for the record, when we're talking about the 371 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: Irish potato fam and that a lot of people didn't 372 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: die because the government imported corn, which they stopped doing 373 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: after the first year of the famine because of TRAVALI. Anyway, 374 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: what we're doing, we'll be doing an episode on the 375 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: potato famine. I didn't want to completely shift on the 376 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: corn that was imported by the government because it was critical. 377 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: It's just also eating corn doesn't historically, as as was 378 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: brought up earlier, eating corn historically does not mean what 379 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: you you think about now. Yeah, well, and and you 380 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: know what, we will also do things on on the 381 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: Mao famines. And part of that also was that the 382 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: centralization of agriculture was a like epocle disaster in a 383 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: lot of ways that took like decades to recover from, 384 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: which yeah, is a is a fun time. Yes, And 385 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: when Chris says a fun time here, he is not 386 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: the end the tru but there was new audias are wondering, 387 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you and Drew for that clarification. I 388 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: was I was slightly I was slightly used. Yes he is. 389 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: He is slash J. He is not slash SR. Yeah. 390 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: I mean it occurs to me that I'm not sure 391 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: I've ever gone back into the record to see if 392 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: anyone in my family died from the famines. I know 393 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: people died later, I don't know if people died specifically 394 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: from that. Which is a good time again, but Chris 395 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: has a good time. What they actually made is not 396 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: a good time. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, back to against the grain, 397 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: back to against the green. So as we're talking about, 398 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: you know, this reliance on this one steep will whether 399 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: it be corn or green or any cereal, really it 400 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: kind of brings to mind um. And also we're going 401 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: to talk about the centralization of farming. Um. You know, 402 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: we've grown to be so reliant on these single things. 403 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: And not only that, but less people know about the 404 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: processes that go into a food than before. UM. We 405 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: see and like as time progresses, UM and as James C. 406 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: Scott points out, and to gatherers, you know, they had 407 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: this ghost of natural rhythms that they had to observe. 408 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: You know, they had like the movement of hoods to season, 409 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: migrations of foods, you know, the resting and nesting places 410 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: of fish, cycles of who holds the different fruits and nuts. Um. 411 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: And if you in the Caribbean, you would know about 412 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: things like you know, mango season and plum season and 413 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: China season, all these different seasons at different times of year. Um. 414 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: And to keep track of all those plus several more 415 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: because they had such diverse diets, I mean, the way 416 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: to attrack the appearance of you know, different mushrooms, um, 417 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: the locations of different types of game. You know, it's 418 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: all these activities that require tool kits, right in, different 419 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: techniques that have to be mastered, have to be understood, 420 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: have to be shared from generations generation. You know. They 421 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: also in addition to that, you know, these foes they 422 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: had the ability to cultivate you know, a lots of 423 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: different stands of you know cereal. Um. They had the 424 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: different tools they had to make sickles and you know, 425 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: um what you call those again sling shots and blue 426 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: dots and all these different tools would have used spears, arrows, 427 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: and they also would have had to recognize the seasonality 428 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 1: of sometimes different ecosystems. You know, they might have been 429 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: crossing for white lands and forests and savannahs and arid environments. 430 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: And so as they understood they had to understand these 431 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: um these rhythms, and they had to be generalists and 432 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: opportunists that could take advantage of these different rhythms, all 433 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: the different episodic bounties that nature may provide or rather provide, 434 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: but you know, bring their way that they would have 435 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: to kind of fight four in some cases. But they 436 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: have this sort of metronome. Right. Farmers on the other hand, 437 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, as we sort of moved to that sort 438 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: of farming dominant, sedentary sort of way of life, you know, 439 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: you largely can find to this one single food web. Right, 440 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: your two routine has a particular tempo you s left, observe, observe, 441 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, different seasonalities and different movements. But it's a 442 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: bit more limited. You know, you have a handful of 443 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: crops that you have to bring successfully to harvest every year, 444 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: and I mean it's complex. A lot of things have 445 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: to look out for, whether it be you know, diseases 446 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: and pathogens and you know different insects and and pests 447 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: at me UM come at your crops. You know, you 448 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: have to look out full of different things, but it's 449 00:28:53,160 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: usually uh closer less expansive range of activities, at least 450 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: in comparison to hunt gatherers. On the other hand, farming 451 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: and the nuances of cereal grain farming um far more complex, 452 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: require far more skill and much wider range of knowledges 453 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: than you know. Working on an assembly line you know 454 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: UM as believe Adam Smith points on Wealth of Nations. 455 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: You know, you have all these people on this assembly 456 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: line making pins. But Alexis they took a Ville asks 457 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: what can be expected of a man who has spent 458 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: twenty years of his life putting heads on pins? You know, 459 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: this sort of a restriction in terms of a contraction 460 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: in terms of the range of knowledges and expert teases 461 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: that you know one can be expected to take on UM. 462 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: And so I guess that kind of links into my 463 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: whole idea of anti work. It's this idea of moving 464 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: outside and beyond this kind of restriction to like one 465 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: or two or a few rigorous activities that you expected 466 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: to do for the rest of your life, and also 467 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: opening people up to exploring a wider range of knowledges 468 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: and expertises and experiences and practices that you know they 469 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: can we eve into their everyday life rather than you know, 470 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: just one minutely choreographed routine of dance steps. You know, 471 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: there's a bit more expression, a bit more freedom in 472 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, how we live, in terms of 473 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: how we work, in terms of how we educate, in 474 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: terms of how we build um, are we socialize um 475 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: being able to sort of much just smashed to one 476 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: beat but sort of generally took a company of music absolutely, absolutely, 477 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: because I think no matter whether or not you own 478 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: a share in the pinmaking factory, I think you're still 479 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: gonna face alienation from your environment by just doing the 480 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: same repetitive taskt hours a day. Like I don't. I 481 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: don't think that's actually much better. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, 482 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: And it requires transmission. And so for those who haven't seen, 483 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, I did a video on anti work sort 484 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: of discussing it, so we can check that out when 485 00:31:49,840 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: this comes out. I suppose I just wanted to that 486 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: right now, we live in a society that um, that 487 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: is governed by institutions that often demand behavior that conflicts 488 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: with our innate capacities and predilections. You know, the millions 489 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: of years of us living in these you know, cooperative 490 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: social sharing environments, you know, where community, communal and individual 491 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: UM rights and and stuff and such were valued and respected. 492 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: I mean to sort of draw back to the Truman 493 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 1: Show analogy. It's almost as if, you know, we went 494 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: from living in the world to living in a zoom 495 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: of our own making. It were just being well, I 496 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: guess we're watching ourselves in this suit. Yeah, It's it's 497 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: like the zoo keeper who lives inside the zoo and 498 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: is also the attraction exactly. And and so I think 499 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: that while obviously we can't switch back to like foraging, 500 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: you know, that's not necessarily desirable. I do think that 501 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: we need to we consider our approaches to you know, 502 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: health and security and work and leisure and the way 503 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: we relate to the natural world. You have to sort 504 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: of change the story and changed how we organize. It's 505 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: going to take Charlione are of course, UM. Anyone who's 506 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: organized can tell you that it is far from easy 507 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: UM and is replete with setback and failure. But I 508 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: think we have a responsibility to m remique. Yes, it's 509 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: not as cool to write the wrongs of yesterday to 510 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: the end tomorrow, nows it? WHOA throw in a couple 511 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: of air horns here. Make sure they're pitched lower so 512 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: that it's not horrible to listen to. No, never do that. 513 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of pool Zone Media. 514 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 515 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 516 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 517 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 518 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,479 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com 519 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening