WEBVTT - Paris is Burning with DoctorJonPaul 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.560 On the Bechdelcast. The questions asked if movies have women 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.920 and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:12.400 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn bast 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.320 start changing with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.520 Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:20.840 Caitlin Drante, my. 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.439 Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:29.040 we talk about your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens. 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.840 Starting beta test Kitlan, what's that. 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:38.400 Well? It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.320 sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test as it was co 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:47.440 created with Liz Wallace. It is a media metric that 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:53.400 has many permutations. Ours is do two characters of a 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.080 marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.440 And is their conversation about something other than a man? 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:06.040 And we particularly like it when it's a narratively relevant 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:11.040 conversation or just something significant and not just like Hi, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.479 how's the weather or whatever? 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.400 And today's a very special episode. It's one of a 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:22.440 handful of documentaries that we've covered on this show before. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.959 But it just if you've seen this documentary. It begs 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.800 to be talked about. There's no shortage of story and 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.600 if you haven't seen it, it's streaming in so many places. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:34.240 Get it together. 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.280 The documentary of course, Being Paris is Burning from nineteen 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:44.399 ninety directed by Jenny Livingston. It is yeah, widely accessible, 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.800 it's iconic, and we have a wonderful guest here with 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:50.280 us to talk about it. 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:51.240 Yeah. 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.920 They are an award winning creator, writer, author. They are 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:59.280 a co host of BFF Black Fat theem podcast. Their 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.480 book Fat Femme, Revealing the Power of visibly queer voices 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.160 in Media and Learning to Love Yourself comes out March 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:08.080 twenty fifth. 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.920 It's John Yay, welcome, dum hey everybody. How you doing. 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.520 We're great, happy almost release. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.080 Yeah, you know we're wait, oh god, oh my god. 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:21.519 There's like thirty one with thirty two more days last. 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.519 Yeah, it's like exactly, no, it's sooner because it's. 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.160 February that part. Yeah, you know what, there aren't that many. Yeah, 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.079 so it is a little bit sooner. So it's somewhere 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.120 around like the like twenty nine thirty days or something 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.760 like that. But yeah, you know, I'm a little excited, 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.239 a little nervous, but I will say this. I sent 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:44.079 it to my mom and sheat my mom she reads 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.400 very quickly, and she called me one day and she 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:47.920 was like, I'm on page one oh seven and I 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.320 just want to say I'm very proud of you. And 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.640 I was like, thanks, Mom, So yeah, So I'm very 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.840 much in the mind of like, I'm happy that it 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.160 landed with her. I was worried for a moment, but 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:58.040 it landed, so. 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:02.639 That's so beautiful. I sent my dad my first draft 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.960 of my book, and if the response was a little muted, 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.520 he was like, you know, Jamie, I really like what 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.680 you're going for here. There are some grammar mistakes. Would 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:14.760 you like me to send them to you in a document? 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.480 And I was like, yeah, I guess yeah. And then 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.079 like six months later he was like, by the way, 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.000 I enjoyed it, yeah, yeah, yeah, so cool. 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.000 I love that. Well, tell us more about your book, John. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.600 Yeah, so quickly. You know, one of the things that 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.240 I had I've always been very vigilant about is the 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:38.120 idea of how black and specifically black queer voices are 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.040 either not uplifted or celebrated in media. And that's kind 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.200 of what I built my whole platform one, right, how 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.000 do I continue to uplift the voices of those who 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.760 often don't have the mic? And so I like to 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.560 tell people that I started this book back, and this 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.720 is also just a testament to how long it can 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.360 take to write a book. I started. I went to 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.160 a Lambda literary retreat back in twenty seventeen, started playing 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.360 with the idea of writing a book there, and it 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.440 just kind of set in my Google drafts forever. And 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.800 then the pandemic came and all my friends wrote books, 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.920 and everyone got one, you know, everyone got one in 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.119 or even got two in, and I was just still 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.360 kind of like, no, no, no, no, I don't think 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.919 I could do it. And then I just got to 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.320 a point. You know what ended up happening was I was, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.159 you know, playing with it, going back and forth with 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.880 different agents. And then in twenty twenty three ish, you know, 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.720 or twenty twenty four, actually, I went to sun Dance 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.200 and I saw the Luther documentary. And I tell everybody 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.240 that that was kind of like the catalyst of me 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.240 wanting to be like, oh god, I know what I'm writing. 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.120 I saw the documentary, I saw the way that they 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:45.440 danced around his queerness, how they didn't talk about his queerness, 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.760 but also how they did, And I said, you know, 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.719 there's got to be a way for us to kind 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.320 of celebrate, you know, like even just looking at Luther 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.279 and looking at Luther's story, I went back into my 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.360 own memories about how I thought about queerness from the 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:00.880 lens of how my family talked about Luther. And that's 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.040 kind of how I opened the book. I talk about 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.000 the idea of how people what they said and what 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.200 they didn't say about Luther and what that said to 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.359 me as a young queer kid in southern California. And 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.520 so I basically get to a point where I start 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.039 talking about this idea of how I literally had to 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.279 figure out how to find myself through media, like writing 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.560 about Luther and his experience and what I got from that. 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:27.440 It really helped me understand how I found myself through media. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.360 And so that's really what the book is. I talk 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.480 about Luther, and again it's not about his sexuality per se. 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.960 It's about all the things I was afraid to delve 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.560 into because of how my family talked about Luther. And 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.400 then my first time meeting Andre Leon Talley on the 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.760 show America's next top model, Miss Jay, you know, Derek j. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.200 Miss Lawrence, Like all of these black queer figures I'm 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.200 seeing in television and what that's telling me about my 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.039 own identity and how I'm learning through them to find myself. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.359 So it's a lot of you know, there's also like 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.599 moments I talk about what happened to me in college. 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.200 I talk about fat phobia. I talk about the idea 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.400 of how much we live, Like how the two thousands 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.200 lie to us. I talk very, very very vocally about 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.800 how much the two thousands was. It was just it 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.200 was shit. It was awful, Like the two thousands was terrible. 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.400 I mean it's like just such a period of like 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.400 absurd regression. It's wild to look back on lucky us. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.240 Yeah, And so I talk about that, like how two 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.839 thousands shaped my you know, body dysmorphia, and you know, 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:30.800 all the things I was doing to try to lose 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.599 weight while I was in college, to keep up with 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.840 the other queer kids I was running in groups with, 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.680 and just really this this overall kind of like how 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.280 did I get to this place? You know, I get 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:40.760 asked out a lot, how do you how are you 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.120 so confident? How are you so happy in who you are? 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.760 Like a lot of therapy and a lot of writing. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.840 So that's really what it is. But yeah, that's pretty 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:50.600 much what my book is. In a nutshell, it's just 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.960 kind of an ode and a celebration of those who 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.400 came before us and those who are still here because 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.040 I know that no one else is going to give 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.159 them their flowers, and so ultimately I thought, why not? 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:00.919 Why not me? Why not I do that? 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.400 So why not? Yeah? That's amazing. I can't wait to 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:08.479 read It's sing And it's also a component of the 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.520 documentary we'll be discussing is kind of an examination of 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:17.720 how media influences the participants of the ballroom scene and 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.800 how they emulate certain people or certain TV shows or 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.080 stars or you know, all that kind of stuff. So 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:25.800 that'll be fun to dive into. 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.440 And there's also so much of like the legacy of 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.720 Paris is burning that there's which I that was the 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:34.880 thing I was not familiar with going in, is like 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.960 the year's long legacy that the Spavia's had, positive, negative, 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:39.800 everything in between. 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:46.720 So John, what's your relationship slash history with this documentary? Yeah? 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.320 You know, so it was one of the documentaries. So 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.280 I'll say this, I did not know really anything. Again, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.800 obviously I tell people, you know, if you go out 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.000 and get my book, you know, I talk very openly 0:07:58.040 --> 0:07:59.560 about how I grew up in a cult, and so 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.200 I do believe that, you know, Jehovah Witnesses are cults, 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.239 they are part of the cult sect. And so growing 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.600 up in the cult, you know, I was very very 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.320 what's the word, not even protected, but I was scared 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.680 to indulge anything that had queer content. And so I 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.920 didn't really get to Paris's Burning until probably two thousand 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.880 and four. And so this is a time where you know, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.520 I know about ball room, you know, miss right. I 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.400 know I know about it, but I don't know it 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:31.480 per se right. And so in two thousand and four, 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:33.719 I'm in college, you know, I take an Art of 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.360 film class and that was one of you know, Aaron 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.120 Race may may he rest in peace. He was one 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.680 of I'm gonna say he was my favorite instructor. But 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.200 I really appreciate it the way he did his class. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:47.920 He did his class, and so it was an art 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.520 of film and I was very much into writing at 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.160 the time, and he basically had positive you know, this 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.520 is what a good you know, a good drama is, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:57.440 this is what a good comedy is, and this is 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.800 what a good documentary is. And so Paris Is Burning 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.800 was the documentary that he posited for that class. We 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:04.840 watched it in class. It was a four hour It 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.240 was a summer class, and so the summer classes were 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.440 hell along. If anybody's ever taken the summer class out 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.880 of college, you know, you're in class for like six hours. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.480 And so, you know, we watched the class. We watched 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.679 the film for two hours, and then we worked in 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.600 groups and we had to dissect what made the documentary great. 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.679 And that was my first, you know, entrance into that film. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.800 And I think what I really loved about the film 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.800 was that it was giving so many people, specifically trans 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:34.400 women or non binary people. It was giving them airtime, 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.280 like they had a voice. And I had never seen 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.840 anyone who looked like you know, Peppala Basia or anyone 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.600 who looked like, you know, Willie Ninja or anything like that, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:44.920 and so it just felt like I was like, oh 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.400 my god, these are my people. Even though this film 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.920 was made almost fifteen years ago, you know, I still 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.480 feel like I found my home right, and so it 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.160 was just it was a very awakening. I feel like 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.520 the film really awakened something in me in regards to 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.720 not only narrative storytelling, but it also awakened kind of 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.280 this notion of like, wow, this is a subculture, you know, 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.080 in a subculture that I feel like I have some 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.280 type of home in if that makes sense. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:16.479 Yeah, of course, yeah, Jamie. What's your history with the documentary? 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.920 I saw this documentary in high school in uh. I 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.400 think it was from my music teacher. She also like 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.679 did the dance stuff in our like plays and stuff, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.360 and so she would just kind of show us whatever 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.160 she felt like, and so she showed us Paris's Burning. 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:36.880 I want to say I was in like tenth or 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.120 eleventh grade and I hadn't revisited since, but it was 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.960 I'm very glad I saw it as young as I did, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:51.160 so thanks miss Bolani shout out to her. But I mean, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.360 I just remember, you know, being this like big class 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.959 full of teenagers that you know, it was whatever, the 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.120 late two thousands, So some kids were total assholes, but 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:03.040 most of most everyone was like really really really pulled in. 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.440 I had never seen a documentary like it before. I 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.120 think at that point, perhaps tragically, the closest I was 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.800 familiar with was like the Madonna Vogue music video that 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:18.120 I was like obsessed with anytime, like my mom would 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.719 turn it on for me, which I you know, that 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.600 is an element of this very complicated conversation around ballroom 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.360 culture and how white celebrities have sort of co opted 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.040 it over the years. But when I saw Paris Is Burning, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.880 I was like, oh, this is what this is, this 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.000 is what she saw, and was like, you know, I 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:41.920 want to present this in my whatever Madonna way, But yeah, 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:46.240 I was really taken with it, particularly obviously, I mean 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.160 we'll talk about everyone in the in the film, particularly Venus, 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.680 and yeah, I don't know, I just I was really 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.160 taken by it, and I hadn't revisited it in years, 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.160 and I had just rewatched it anyways, because I've been 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.640 working on a project about this feels weirdly tangential but 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.040 drag in comedy, because I interviewed that do you remember 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.400 the YouTube video with Kelly. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:16.480 Shoes Shoes Yeah, yes, yes, yes. 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.040 So I was doing just like some background on on 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.439 on drag and the history of drag because I interviewed 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.000 Liam Kyle's all and who plays Kelly. And I just 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.240 read a book that I would highly recommend called Decolonized 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.280 Drag by Kareem Kupchandani that I think came out a 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.760 couple of years ago. So I don't know, I mean 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.840 it's Paris's Burning. I know it is just like a 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.120 huge touchstone for a lot of people, and it was 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.720 definitely my first gateway into, you know, seeing this world 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.200 and also like revisiting it. I was so happy to 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:57.400 see again just how inclusive the world of this documentary 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.800 is and how I mean, like you're saying, John, how 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.200 you know on drag race trans people weren't allowed to 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.920 compete for years and years in this really restrictive way. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.840 And again, like Paris is Burning is the real deal. 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.800 It is a full community, and it's just it's beautiful. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.559 So it's really fun to revisit. Caitlyn, what is your 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:20.679 history with this field? 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:26.440 I saw it during the great Caitlin movie binge of 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.560 two thousand and four slash two thousand and five. Yes, 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:35.000 I was a It was like during my freshman slash 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.000 sophomore year in college and I was a film student, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:45.120 and I realized how few movies I'd actually seen I 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.960 went into film school being like, I'm a scholar already. 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.680 I don't even know why I'm here. I already know 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:52.600 everything about movies. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.920 I've seen Indiana Jones, one, two, and three. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:14:05.040 Yeah, you thinkom because I know the I know film 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.640 And it turns out I didn't know shit. 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.640 So I started compiling just like a list of all 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.280 the movies I felt like I needed to watch. And 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.600 I was getting all the Netflix DVDs back when that 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.240 was still a bad What a time? What a time? 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.640 I got three at a time at a time you. 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:26.760 Had the premium. 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:31.280 Oh, you have the money. So I was cycling through 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.560 those and Paris Is Burning is one of the ones 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:40.480 I watched, and it was probably my first exposure to 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.440 actually seeing a trans person on screen who was not 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:51.000 a like CIS actor playing a trans person because for 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.680 some reason, I was like really attached to the movie 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.160 Boys Don't Cry in high school. I watched it many 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.400 many times, but of course that is an example of 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.440 a SIS actor playing a trans character slash trans real 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:11.920 life person, So I think, yeah, seeing this documentary was probably, 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.400 if not the first, one of the very first times 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:20.360 I saw an actual transperson on screen, and I learned 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.880 a lot, and I enjoyed the documentary very much. But 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.360 like you, Jamie, I hadn't revisited it in many, many years, 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.120 so I was very excited to dive back in and 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.800 revisited it. And there's so much to talk about. It's 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.120 really interesting to see the ways in which, like things 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:43.480 discussed in the documentary are still very relevant and also 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.360 some of the ways in which things feel quite dated 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:51.640 by our standards today. So lots to discuss. Excited to 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.960 get into it. Before we do. Let's take a quick 0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:10.040 break and then we'll come back for the recap and 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:16.200 we're back, okay. So here's the recap of Paris is Burning. 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.120 It's a little tricky to do a recap for a 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:23.920 documentary because it doesn't follow, you know, a standard narrative 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.320 three x structure. But I think I did a pretty 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.080 swell job here. But feel free to jump in and 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.240 fill in any blanks. But this is, of course, a 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:39.760 documentary about the ballroom scene in New York City, specifically 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:45.120 Harlem in nineteen eighty seven. Ballroom, of course, referring to 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:52.440 a subculture of the LGBTQ plus community, where predominantly black 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:58.160 and LATINX queer folk put on balls, which are shows 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:04.520 slash competitions where participants walk on a runway, so to speak, 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.639 they model their outfit. There is often a component of 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:15.440 drag and or costumes. There's often dancing, especially voguing. There 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:16.680 are different categories. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.000 There's music, there's dynasties, there's families. There's family rivalries. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:26.679 Yes, there is. The rivalry is where it's at. 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:28.480 Those were some of my favorite parts of the doc 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.480 where I think it's Freddie who says House of Lebasia, 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:38.120 I wouldn't be caught dead there. Yeah, but the ballroom 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.800 scene is all about self expression and being in a 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.840 space where you can be safe and comfortable and celebrated 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.000 in your queer identity. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.520 Can I also make a no, I'm not to cut 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.080 you off, but I also think it's it's also imperative 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.399 to note that there was also as much as it 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.720 was fun, there was a lot of tension in those spaces, 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.760 Like specifically that's seen with the jack it right, and 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.600 they were saying that the person who was walking men's 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.280 but they said it was a woman's jacket and they 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.520 were like going, there was like a hole. It literally 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:12.159 stopped the entire event, this jacket that they proclaimed to 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.439 be a woman's jacket. So it just I felt it 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.440 was important to note that because I think as much 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.240 as it was fun and celebratory, it was also there 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.879 was a lot of drama. There was a lot of. 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.719 Drama for sure, and the response, it's the buttons are 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:32.040 on the right side was set, Mama was up set. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.960 It was also really I mean, there's one of the 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.720 things that I guess I hadn't really remembered about. It 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.760 was the generational tension as well, like that is really 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.399 really interesting to explore, and all I know in ways 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.360 that we'll talk about, but I was like, oh, yeah, 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.720 this is like sort of a It really is like 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.000 generations of a family trying to all be at the 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.920 same event, which always ends in a fight of some sort. 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.080 So it's not shocking. 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:02.240 It's like Thanksgiving every day at the ball, like, you know, 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.199 the older auntie says something to the younger cousin, and 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.720 the younger cousin is like, you know what, you don't 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.720 know anything like let's talk about your your dirt, right, 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.080 you want to talk about my dirt, Let's talk about yours. 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:14.560 And I was going to say that, like you know, 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.679 as much as you know, I have the privilege. So 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.840 recently I went to Creating Change earlier this year, and 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.280 earlier this year, like we literally January felt like it 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:28.880 was eighteen months. So January I've spent, let me tell you, right, 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.160 And so I went to Creating Change back last month, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.600 I should say, and they had a ball there. It 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.920 was an actual ball, and it was the same thing. 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.600 It was very much like as I'm watching the event 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.600 play out at Creating Change, I'm watching, like, you know, 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.440 Paris's burning play out in my head, where you have 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.840 people who are like legends coming up to walk and 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.720 they're being cut off by people who think that they 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.920 are currently a legend, and so now there's tension between 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.359 people and who's walking. What It's just, it was. It 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.679 was fun, but I could see like Paris is burning 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.200 playing out in my head as I'm watching the ball 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.919 take place, So it's still present, It's still present. 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:09.240 The drama remains. 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.920 One of the I think most heavily featured queens in 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:18.199 the in the documentary is Dorian Corey, who just like 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:24.199 the number of like both extremely shady and funny and 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:29.240 also profoundly wise, like those are Dorian's two settings. But 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.639 I think Dorian really really really sets this like this 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.520 generational divide between the older generation and the newer generation 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:42.560 in a way that is like really fascinating and also 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.120 super funny because she's super funny. 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:50.359 Yeah. Yeah, it felt like Dorian Corey and Pepper Labasia 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.119 being the ta who like the generational differences on what 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:58.480 they say in their attitudes about things are most prominent. 0:20:58.800 --> 0:20:59.120 But yeah. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.399 Over the course of the doc documentary, we meet several 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.840 people in this scene, starting with Pepper Labasia, the mother 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.040 of the House of Lebasia and has been for two decades. 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:14.879 We also meet some younger members in the scene, like 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:22.000 Kim Pendavis and Kim's friend in protege, Freddie Pendavis. Kim 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:27.000 is an aspiring legend. The goal of participating in Balls 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.680 is to become a legend or to be legendary. Pepper Labasia, 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.320 for example, is considered a legend. We also meet Dorian 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:40.760 Corey shortly after this, another legend. In the scene, Dorian 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:46.800 Corey talks about the differences between Ballroom now aka in 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:51.560 the late eighties when this documentary was filmed, and Ballroom 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.120 from when Dorian was first starting out, which I believe 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:56.879 would have been I don't know if it was like 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:01.280 the fifties or sixties. But first it was like elaborate 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.440 drag where people were dressing similar to like Vegas showgirls. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.920 Then it was people trying to emulate movie stars. Then 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:13.920 it became about emulating model like supermodels walking down the runway. 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:19.320 As time went on, more categories were created to be 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:25.240 more inclusive. So there's categories like high fashion, winter sportswear, 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:34.120 luscious body, schoolboy slash schoolgirl, realness, town and Country, executive realness, military, 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:39.240 high fashion, eveningwear, and a very specific category butch Queen 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.359 first time in drags at a ball, to name just 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:45.200 a few of the categories. 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.720 It is so this dock. The categories are not all 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.560