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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast. The questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn bast

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Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is

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Speaker 2: Caitlin Drante, my.

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Speaker 1: Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where

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Speaker 1: we talk about your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens.

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Speaker 1: Starting beta test Kitlan, what's that.

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Speaker 2: Well? It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,

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Speaker 2: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test as it was co

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Speaker 2: created with Liz Wallace. It is a media metric that

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Speaker 2: has many permutations. Ours is do two characters of a

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Speaker 2: marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?

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Speaker 2: And is their conversation about something other than a man?

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Speaker 2: And we particularly like it when it's a narratively relevant

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Speaker 2: conversation or just something significant and not just like Hi,

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Speaker 2: how's the weather or whatever?

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Speaker 1: And today's a very special episode. It's one of a

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Speaker 1: handful of documentaries that we've covered on this show before.

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Speaker 1: But it just if you've seen this documentary. It begs

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Speaker 1: to be talked about. There's no shortage of story and

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Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, it's streaming in so many places.

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Speaker 1: Get it together.

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Speaker 2: The documentary of course, Being Paris is Burning from nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety directed by Jenny Livingston. It is yeah, widely accessible,

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Speaker 2: it's iconic, and we have a wonderful guest here with

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Speaker 2: us to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They are an award winning creator, writer, author. They are

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Speaker 2: a co host of BFF Black Fat theem podcast. Their

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Speaker 2: book Fat Femme, Revealing the Power of visibly queer voices

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Speaker 2: in Media and Learning to Love Yourself comes out March

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth.

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Speaker 3: It's John Yay, welcome, dum hey everybody. How you doing.

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Speaker 1: We're great, happy almost release.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know we're wait, oh god, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: There's like thirty one with thirty two more days last.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like exactly, no, it's sooner because it's.

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Speaker 3: February that part. Yeah, you know what, there aren't that many. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so it is a little bit sooner. So it's somewhere

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Speaker 3: around like the like twenty nine thirty days or something

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Speaker 3: like that. But yeah, you know, I'm a little excited,

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Speaker 3: a little nervous, but I will say this. I sent

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Speaker 3: it to my mom and sheat my mom she reads

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Speaker 3: very quickly, and she called me one day and she

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Speaker 3: was like, I'm on page one oh seven and I

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Speaker 3: just want to say I'm very proud of you. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, thanks, Mom, So yeah, So I'm very

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Speaker 3: much in the mind of like, I'm happy that it

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Speaker 3: landed with her. I was worried for a moment, but

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Speaker 3: it landed, so.

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Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. I sent my dad my first draft

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Speaker 1: of my book, and if the response was a little muted,

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Speaker 1: he was like, you know, Jamie, I really like what

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Speaker 1: you're going for here. There are some grammar mistakes. Would

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Speaker 1: you like me to send them to you in a document?

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Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, I guess yeah. And then

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Speaker 1: like six months later he was like, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed it, yeah, yeah, yeah, so cool.

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Speaker 2: I love that. Well, tell us more about your book, John.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so quickly. You know, one of the things that

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Speaker 3: I had I've always been very vigilant about is the

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Speaker 3: idea of how black and specifically black queer voices are

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Speaker 3: either not uplifted or celebrated in media. And that's kind

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Speaker 3: of what I built my whole platform one, right, how

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Speaker 3: do I continue to uplift the voices of those who

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Speaker 3: often don't have the mic? And so I like to

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Speaker 3: tell people that I started this book back, and this

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Speaker 3: is also just a testament to how long it can

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Speaker 3: take to write a book. I started. I went to

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Speaker 3: a Lambda literary retreat back in twenty seventeen, started playing

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Speaker 3: with the idea of writing a book there, and it

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Speaker 3: just kind of set in my Google drafts forever. And

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Speaker 3: then the pandemic came and all my friends wrote books,

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Speaker 3: and everyone got one, you know, everyone got one in

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Speaker 3: or even got two in, and I was just still

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Speaker 3: kind of like, no, no, no, no, I don't think

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Speaker 3: I could do it. And then I just got to

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Speaker 3: a point. You know what ended up happening was I was,

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Speaker 3: you know, playing with it, going back and forth with

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Speaker 3: different agents. And then in twenty twenty three ish, you know,

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Speaker 3: or twenty twenty four, actually, I went to sun Dance

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Speaker 3: and I saw the Luther documentary. And I tell everybody

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Speaker 3: that that was kind of like the catalyst of me

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Speaker 3: wanting to be like, oh god, I know what I'm writing.

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Speaker 3: I saw the documentary, I saw the way that they

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Speaker 3: danced around his queerness, how they didn't talk about his queerness,

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Speaker 3: but also how they did, And I said, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's got to be a way for us to kind

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Speaker 3: of celebrate, you know, like even just looking at Luther

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Speaker 3: and looking at Luther's story, I went back into my

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Speaker 3: own memories about how I thought about queerness from the

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Speaker 3: lens of how my family talked about Luther. And that's

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Speaker 3: kind of how I opened the book. I talk about

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Speaker 3: the idea of how people what they said and what

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Speaker 3: they didn't say about Luther and what that said to

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Speaker 3: me as a young queer kid in southern California. And

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Speaker 3: so I basically get to a point where I start

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Speaker 3: talking about this idea of how I literally had to

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Speaker 3: figure out how to find myself through media, like writing

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Speaker 3: about Luther and his experience and what I got from that.

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Speaker 3: It really helped me understand how I found myself through media.

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Speaker 3: And so that's really what the book is. I talk

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Speaker 3: about Luther, and again it's not about his sexuality per se.

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Speaker 3: It's about all the things I was afraid to delve

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Speaker 3: into because of how my family talked about Luther. And

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Speaker 3: then my first time meeting Andre Leon Talley on the

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Speaker 3: show America's next top model, Miss Jay, you know, Derek j.

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Speaker 3: Miss Lawrence, Like all of these black queer figures I'm

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Speaker 3: seeing in television and what that's telling me about my

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Speaker 3: own identity and how I'm learning through them to find myself.

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Speaker 3: So it's a lot of you know, there's also like

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Speaker 3: moments I talk about what happened to me in college.

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Speaker 3: I talk about fat phobia. I talk about the idea

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Speaker 3: of how much we live, Like how the two thousands

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Speaker 3: lie to us. I talk very, very very vocally about

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Speaker 3: how much the two thousands was. It was just it

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Speaker 3: was shit. It was awful, Like the two thousands was terrible.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's like just such a period of like

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Speaker 1: absurd regression. It's wild to look back on lucky us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I talk about that, like how two

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Speaker 3: thousands shaped my you know, body dysmorphia, and you know,

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Speaker 3: all the things I was doing to try to lose

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Speaker 3: weight while I was in college, to keep up with

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Speaker 3: the other queer kids I was running in groups with,

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Speaker 3: and just really this this overall kind of like how

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Speaker 3: did I get to this place? You know, I get

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Speaker 3: asked out a lot, how do you how are you

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Speaker 3: so confident? How are you so happy in who you are?

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Speaker 3: Like a lot of therapy and a lot of writing.

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Speaker 3: So that's really what it is. But yeah, that's pretty

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Speaker 3: much what my book is. In a nutshell, it's just

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Speaker 3: kind of an ode and a celebration of those who

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Speaker 3: came before us and those who are still here because

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Speaker 3: I know that no one else is going to give

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Speaker 3: them their flowers, and so ultimately I thought, why not?

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Speaker 3: Why not me? Why not I do that?

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Speaker 2: So why not? Yeah? That's amazing. I can't wait to

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Speaker 2: read It's sing And it's also a component of the

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Speaker 2: documentary we'll be discussing is kind of an examination of

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Speaker 2: how media influences the participants of the ballroom scene and

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Speaker 2: how they emulate certain people or certain TV shows or

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Speaker 2: stars or you know, all that kind of stuff. So

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Speaker 2: that'll be fun to dive into.

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Speaker 1: And there's also so much of like the legacy of

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Speaker 1: Paris is burning that there's which I that was the

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Speaker 1: thing I was not familiar with going in, is like

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Speaker 1: the year's long legacy that the Spavia's had, positive, negative,

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Speaker 1: everything in between.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So John, what's your relationship slash history with this documentary? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: You know, so it was one of the documentaries. So

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Speaker 3: I'll say this, I did not know really anything. Again,

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Speaker 3: obviously I tell people, you know, if you go out

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Speaker 3: and get my book, you know, I talk very openly

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Speaker 3: about how I grew up in a cult, and so

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Speaker 3: I do believe that, you know, Jehovah Witnesses are cults,

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Speaker 3: they are part of the cult sect. And so growing

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Speaker 3: up in the cult, you know, I was very very

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Speaker 3: what's the word, not even protected, but I was scared

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Speaker 3: to indulge anything that had queer content. And so I

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Speaker 3: didn't really get to Paris's Burning until probably two thousand

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Speaker 3: and four. And so this is a time where you know,

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Speaker 3: I know about ball room, you know, miss right. I

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Speaker 3: know I know about it, but I don't know it

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Speaker 3: per se right. And so in two thousand and four,

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Speaker 3: I'm in college, you know, I take an Art of

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Speaker 3: film class and that was one of you know, Aaron

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Speaker 3: Race may may he rest in peace. He was one

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Speaker 3: of I'm gonna say he was my favorite instructor. But

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate it the way he did his class.

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Speaker 3: He did his class, and so it was an art

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Speaker 3: of film and I was very much into writing at

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Speaker 3: the time, and he basically had positive you know, this

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Speaker 3: is what a good you know, a good drama is,

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Speaker 3: this is what a good comedy is, and this is

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Speaker 3: what a good documentary is. And so Paris Is Burning

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Speaker 3: was the documentary that he posited for that class. We

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Speaker 3: watched it in class. It was a four hour It

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Speaker 3: was a summer class, and so the summer classes were

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Speaker 3: hell along. If anybody's ever taken the summer class out

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Speaker 3: of college, you know, you're in class for like six hours.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, we watched the class. We watched

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Speaker 3: the film for two hours, and then we worked in

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Speaker 3: groups and we had to dissect what made the documentary great.

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Speaker 3: And that was my first, you know, entrance into that film.

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Speaker 3: And I think what I really loved about the film

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Speaker 3: was that it was giving so many people, specifically trans

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Speaker 3: women or non binary people. It was giving them airtime,

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Speaker 3: like they had a voice. And I had never seen

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Speaker 3: anyone who looked like you know, Peppala Basia or anyone

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Speaker 3: who looked like, you know, Willie Ninja or anything like that,

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Speaker 3: and so it just felt like I was like, oh

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Speaker 3: my god, these are my people. Even though this film

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Speaker 3: was made almost fifteen years ago, you know, I still

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Speaker 3: feel like I found my home right, and so it

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Speaker 3: was just it was a very awakening. I feel like

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Speaker 3: the film really awakened something in me in regards to

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Speaker 3: not only narrative storytelling, but it also awakened kind of

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Speaker 3: this notion of like, wow, this is a subculture, you know,

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Speaker 3: in a subculture that I feel like I have some

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Speaker 3: type of home in if that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yeah, Jamie. What's your history with the documentary?

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Speaker 1: I saw this documentary in high school in uh. I

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Speaker 1: think it was from my music teacher. She also like

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Speaker 1: did the dance stuff in our like plays and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and so she would just kind of show us whatever

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Speaker 1: she felt like, and so she showed us Paris's Burning.

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Speaker 1: I want to say I was in like tenth or

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Speaker 1: eleventh grade and I hadn't revisited since, but it was

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Speaker 1: I'm very glad I saw it as young as I did,

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Speaker 1: so thanks miss Bolani shout out to her. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just remember, you know, being this like big class

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Speaker 1: full of teenagers that you know, it was whatever, the

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Speaker 1: late two thousands, So some kids were total assholes, but

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Speaker 1: most of most everyone was like really really really pulled in.

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Speaker 1: I had never seen a documentary like it before. I

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Speaker 1: think at that point, perhaps tragically, the closest I was

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Speaker 1: familiar with was like the Madonna Vogue music video that

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Speaker 1: I was like obsessed with anytime, like my mom would

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Speaker 1: turn it on for me, which I you know, that

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Speaker 1: is an element of this very complicated conversation around ballroom

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Speaker 1: culture and how white celebrities have sort of co opted

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Speaker 1: it over the years. But when I saw Paris Is Burning,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is what this is, this

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Speaker 1: is what she saw, and was like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: want to present this in my whatever Madonna way, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was really taken with it, particularly obviously, I mean

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about everyone in the in the film, particularly Venus,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I don't know, I just I was really

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Speaker 1: taken by it, and I hadn't revisited it in years,

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Speaker 1: and I had just rewatched it anyways, because I've been

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Speaker 1: working on a project about this feels weirdly tangential but

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Speaker 1: drag in comedy, because I interviewed that do you remember

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Speaker 1: the YouTube video with Kelly.

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Speaker 3: Shoes Shoes Yeah, yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: So I was doing just like some background on on

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Speaker 1: on drag and the history of drag because I interviewed

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Speaker 1: Liam Kyle's all and who plays Kelly. And I just

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Speaker 1: read a book that I would highly recommend called Decolonized

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Speaker 1: Drag by Kareem Kupchandani that I think came out a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago. So I don't know, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's Paris's Burning. I know it is just like a

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Speaker 1: huge touchstone for a lot of people, and it was

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Speaker 1: definitely my first gateway into, you know, seeing this world

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Speaker 1: and also like revisiting it. I was so happy to

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Speaker 1: see again just how inclusive the world of this documentary

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Speaker 1: is and how I mean, like you're saying, John, how

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Speaker 1: you know on drag race trans people weren't allowed to

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Speaker 1: compete for years and years in this really restrictive way.

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Speaker 1: And again, like Paris is Burning is the real deal.

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Speaker 1: It is a full community, and it's just it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: So it's really fun to revisit. Caitlyn, what is your

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Speaker 1: history with this field?

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Speaker 2: I saw it during the great Caitlin movie binge of

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Speaker 2: two thousand and four slash two thousand and five. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I was a It was like during my freshman slash

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Speaker 2: sophomore year in college and I was a film student,

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Speaker 2: and I realized how few movies I'd actually seen I

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Speaker 2: went into film school being like, I'm a scholar already.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know why I'm here. I already know

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Speaker 2: everything about movies.

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Speaker 1: I've seen Indiana Jones, one, two, and three.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you thinkom because I know the I know film

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Speaker 4: And it turns out I didn't know shit.

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Speaker 2: So I started compiling just like a list of all

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Speaker 2: the movies I felt like I needed to watch. And

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Speaker 2: I was getting all the Netflix DVDs back when that

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Speaker 2: was still a bad What a time? What a time?

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Speaker 2: I got three at a time at a time you.

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Speaker 3: Had the premium.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you have the money. So I was cycling through

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Speaker 2: those and Paris Is Burning is one of the ones

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Speaker 2: I watched, and it was probably my first exposure to

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Speaker 2: actually seeing a trans person on screen who was not

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Speaker 2: a like CIS actor playing a trans person because for

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Speaker 2: some reason, I was like really attached to the movie

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Speaker 2: Boys Don't Cry in high school. I watched it many

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Speaker 2: many times, but of course that is an example of

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Speaker 2: a SIS actor playing a trans character slash trans real

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Speaker 2: life person, So I think, yeah, seeing this documentary was probably,

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Speaker 2: if not the first, one of the very first times

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Speaker 2: I saw an actual transperson on screen, and I learned

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Speaker 2: a lot, and I enjoyed the documentary very much. But

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Speaker 2: like you, Jamie, I hadn't revisited it in many, many years,

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Speaker 2: so I was very excited to dive back in and

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Speaker 2: revisited it. And there's so much to talk about. It's

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Speaker 2: really interesting to see the ways in which, like things

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Speaker 2: discussed in the documentary are still very relevant and also

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Speaker 2: some of the ways in which things feel quite dated

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Speaker 2: by our standards today. So lots to discuss. Excited to

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Speaker 2: get into it. Before we do. Let's take a quick

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Speaker 2: break and then we'll come back for the recap and

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Speaker 2: we're back, okay. So here's the recap of Paris is Burning.

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Speaker 2: It's a little tricky to do a recap for a

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Speaker 2: documentary because it doesn't follow, you know, a standard narrative

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Speaker 2: three x structure. But I think I did a pretty

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Speaker 2: swell job here. But feel free to jump in and

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Speaker 2: fill in any blanks. But this is, of course, a

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Speaker 2: documentary about the ballroom scene in New York City, specifically

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Speaker 2: Harlem in nineteen eighty seven. Ballroom, of course, referring to

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Speaker 2: a subculture of the LGBTQ plus community, where predominantly black

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Speaker 2: and LATINX queer folk put on balls, which are shows

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Speaker 2: slash competitions where participants walk on a runway, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: they model their outfit. There is often a component of

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Speaker 2: drag and or costumes. There's often dancing, especially voguing. There

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Speaker 2: are different categories.

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Speaker 1: There's music, there's dynasties, there's families. There's family rivalries.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there is. The rivalry is where it's at.

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Speaker 2: Those were some of my favorite parts of the doc

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Speaker 2: where I think it's Freddie who says House of Lebasia,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be caught dead there. Yeah, but the ballroom

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Speaker 2: scene is all about self expression and being in a

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Speaker 2: space where you can be safe and comfortable and celebrated

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Speaker 2: in your queer identity.

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Speaker 3: Can I also make a no, I'm not to cut

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Speaker 3: you off, but I also think it's it's also imperative

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Speaker 3: to note that there was also as much as it

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Speaker 3: was fun, there was a lot of tension in those spaces,

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Speaker 3: Like specifically that's seen with the jack it right, and

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Speaker 3: they were saying that the person who was walking men's

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Speaker 3: but they said it was a woman's jacket and they

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Speaker 3: were like going, there was like a hole. It literally

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Speaker 3: stopped the entire event, this jacket that they proclaimed to

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Speaker 3: be a woman's jacket. So it just I felt it

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Speaker 3: was important to note that because I think as much

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Speaker 3: as it was fun and celebratory, it was also there

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Speaker 3: was a lot of drama. There was a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Drama for sure, and the response, it's the buttons are

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Speaker 2: on the right side was set, Mama was up set.

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Speaker 1: It was also really I mean, there's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I guess I hadn't really remembered about. It

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Speaker 1: was the generational tension as well, like that is really

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Speaker 1: really interesting to explore, and all I know in ways

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Speaker 1: that we'll talk about, but I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is like sort of a It really is like

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Speaker 1: generations of a family trying to all be at the

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Speaker 1: same event, which always ends in a fight of some sort.

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Speaker 1: So it's not shocking.

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Speaker 3: It's like Thanksgiving every day at the ball, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the older auntie says something to the younger cousin, and

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Speaker 3: the younger cousin is like, you know what, you don't

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Speaker 3: know anything like let's talk about your your dirt, right,

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Speaker 3: you want to talk about my dirt, Let's talk about yours.

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Speaker 3: And I was going to say that, like you know,

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Speaker 3: as much as you know, I have the privilege. So

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Speaker 3: recently I went to Creating Change earlier this year, and

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Speaker 3: earlier this year, like we literally January felt like it

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Speaker 3: was eighteen months. So January I've spent, let me tell you, right,

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Speaker 3: And so I went to Creating Change back last month,

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Speaker 3: I should say, and they had a ball there. It

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Speaker 3: was an actual ball, and it was the same thing.

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Speaker 3: It was very much like as I'm watching the event

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Speaker 3: play out at Creating Change, I'm watching, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: Paris's burning play out in my head, where you have

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Speaker 3: people who are like legends coming up to walk and

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Speaker 3: they're being cut off by people who think that they

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Speaker 3: are currently a legend, and so now there's tension between

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Speaker 3: people and who's walking. What It's just, it was. It

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Speaker 3: was fun, but I could see like Paris is burning

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Speaker 3: playing out in my head as I'm watching the ball

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Speaker 3: take place, So it's still present, It's still present.

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Speaker 2: The drama remains.

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Speaker 1: One of the I think most heavily featured queens in

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Speaker 1: the in the documentary is Dorian Corey, who just like

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Speaker 1: the number of like both extremely shady and funny and

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Speaker 1: also profoundly wise, like those are Dorian's two settings. But

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Speaker 1: I think Dorian really really really sets this like this

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Speaker 1: generational divide between the older generation and the newer generation

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Speaker 1: in a way that is like really fascinating and also

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Speaker 1: super funny because she's super funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it felt like Dorian Corey and Pepper Labasia

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Speaker 2: being the ta who like the generational differences on what

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Speaker 2: they say in their attitudes about things are most prominent.

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Speaker 1: But yeah.

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Speaker 2: Over the course of the doc documentary, we meet several

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Speaker 2: people in this scene, starting with Pepper Labasia, the mother

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Speaker 2: of the House of Lebasia and has been for two decades.

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Speaker 2: We also meet some younger members in the scene, like

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Speaker 2: Kim Pendavis and Kim's friend in protege, Freddie Pendavis. Kim

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Speaker 2: is an aspiring legend. The goal of participating in Balls

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Speaker 2: is to become a legend or to be legendary. Pepper Labasia,

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Speaker 2: for example, is considered a legend. We also meet Dorian

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Speaker 2: Corey shortly after this, another legend. In the scene, Dorian

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Speaker 2: Corey talks about the differences between Ballroom now aka in

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Speaker 2: the late eighties when this documentary was filmed, and Ballroom

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Speaker 2: from when Dorian was first starting out, which I believe

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Speaker 2: would have been I don't know if it was like

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Speaker 2: the fifties or sixties. But first it was like elaborate

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Speaker 2: drag where people were dressing similar to like Vegas showgirls.

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Speaker 2: Then it was people trying to emulate movie stars. Then

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Speaker 2: it became about emulating model like supermodels walking down the runway.

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Speaker 2: As time went on, more categories were created to be

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Speaker 2: more inclusive. So there's categories like high fashion, winter sportswear,

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Speaker 2: luscious body, schoolboy slash schoolgirl, realness, town and Country, executive realness, military,

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Speaker 2: high fashion, eveningwear, and a very specific category butch Queen

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Speaker 2: first time in drags at a ball, to name just

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Speaker 2: a few of the categories.

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Speaker 1: It is so this dock. The categories are not all

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Speaker 1: of them, but some of them are so profoundly eighties

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Speaker 1: that you're like, okay, yes, right, it's wild. And it

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Speaker 1: was also interesting here Dorian speak to the philosophy in

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Speaker 1: costuming and how that's changed, not just like to reflect

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Speaker 1: the whatever the western beauty ideals of the period are,

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Speaker 1: but also like the price of costumes.

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Speaker 3: Where we're gonna say that yeah, right, like.

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Speaker 1: There's this there's a class component to it as well,

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Speaker 1: where it sounds like when Dorian was coming up, you know,

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Speaker 1: everyone made their own costumes. It was very scrappy, and

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Speaker 1: that was understood where by the time the documentary is

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Speaker 1: being filmed, it's again very eighty thing of like designer

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Speaker 1: labels by any means necessary, and in Dorian's opinion, something

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Speaker 1: that required an equal amount of scrappiness but less creativity.

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Speaker 1: Like it was interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say to that point, that

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Speaker 3: was actually one of the things that one of the

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Speaker 3: first things that was on my mind was that it

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Speaker 3: really this film really shows not even just depression, but

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Speaker 3: it shows the the gap that so many of you know,

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Speaker 3: trans specifically trans black women were experiencing in that moment,

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Speaker 3: right It shows the pay disparity, It shows you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of them being houseless, and you know a

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Speaker 3: lot of them talking about what they have to do

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Speaker 3: to survive. And I think, you know, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to get ahead of myself, but what I will say

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Speaker 3: is that I think that them opening talking about that,

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Speaker 3: right about this classism that lives in it, you know,

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Speaker 3: that lives in this ball world, really says a lot

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Speaker 3: to what's actually happening to them outside of these ballrooms, right, Like,

431
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: it's really giving you a greater understanding of what the

432
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 3: disparity was, and I thought it was actually very interesting.

433
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: I forget who it was, I have such a hard

434
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: time remembering names, but the woman who was talking about

435
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 3: wanting to go model, and you know, and how they

436
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: did that inner cut to all at the time, it's

437
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 3: you know, very eighties, but you know all these high

438
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 3: level fashion you know, high level stores and all of

439
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 3: these high level things, right even and then you you

440
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: talk about like even just the different categories. I think

441
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: one of the category was dynasty, right, so the whole

442
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: notion of you know, people trying to pretend to be

443
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: opulent and you know, I want to say herbaceous, but

444
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,959
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the right word. But like,

445
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 3: you just had a lot of people trying to live

446
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: in a financial category that they could never attain, at

447
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 3: least in that moment or in that time. It was

448
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: very very far fetched and it was really hard for

449
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: them to attain it, and so they were playing this

450
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: out in different categories in the ball and I always

451
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: thought that was so interesting.

452
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots to discuss there, and throughout the documentary there

453
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: are various discussions about race, class, gender, sexuality, the intersections

454
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: of all of those things and how systemic biases affect

455
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: the participants in the ballroom community. So yeah, we'll get

456
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: more into that in a bit. There's also talk of

457
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: essentially code switching and efforts to quote unquote pass as straight,

458
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: which is characterized as realness. In this context. Realness also

459
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: refers to passing as a different gender than the one

460
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: you were assigned at birth. There's lots we can discuss

461
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 2: there as well. Pepper Labasia talks about her parents discovering

462
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: that she had breasts and wore women's clothing, and how

463
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: she was ostracized for this. Side note here, From what

464
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: I understand, Pepper Lebasia had breast implants and preferred she

465
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 2: her pronouns, but did not identify as a woman. She

466
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: goes into this a little bit later in the documentary,

467
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: but she talks about how young teens would come to

468
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: her looking for a parental figure after they've been kicked

469
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: out of their house for being queer, and this kind

470
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: of leads into a discussion of found family chosen family,

471
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: which is connected to houses in the ballroom community where

472
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 2: people belong to different houses such as the house of Labasia,

473
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 2: House of Chanel, House of Dupre, house of Extravaganza, etc.

474
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: And they like function as real families family.

475
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

476
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that section with Pepper explaining like I'm a mother,

477
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: but I'm also like a mother, like I'm buying birthday

478
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: presents and which is just I don't know, as a

479
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: really moving section totally.

480
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 2: We meet Venus Extravaganza, a young trans woman who was

481
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: brought into the House of Extravaganza. We'll see more and

482
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: more of her throughout the documentary. We also meet the

483
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 2: mother of this house, Angie Extravaganza, who we see winning

484
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: an award for being like best mother of a house.

485
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: We also meet Willie Ninja, mother of the House Ninja,

486
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: and there's talk of you know, like you said, Jimmy,

487
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: like mothers providing care and support and buying birthday presents

488
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: and sometimes like giving younger members.

489
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: Really right, who talks about buying birthday presents? Yeah?

490
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well also and Angie Extravaganta, Like, I think a

491
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 2: lot of them touch on this, but yeah, they're basically

492
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: like providing care for the like children aka members of

493
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: their house. There's also talk of like this house is

494
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: the best, yeah, the most legendary, the most popular. Oh

495
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 2: that house, I wouldn't be caught dead in that house.

496
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: So there's rivalries. As we discussed earlier, fights breakout, people

497
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: throw shade at each other and fist.

498
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 3: The girls fight, they do fight.

499
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: They talk about something called reading, which is throwing very

500
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: specific insults at one another, the idea being like, oh, well,

501
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: if straight people insult a member of the queer community,

502
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 2: that's very different than members of the queer community in

503
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: insulting each other. So that's the idea behind reading, and

504
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: then throwing shade is like similar but more like subtextual,

505
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: where the insults are a little bit more you know,

506
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: it's shady for lack of a better word.

507
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: Yes, Dorian said, I don't have to tell you you're ugly. Yes,

508
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: you just know you're ugly.

509
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 1: Like it's it's yeah, it's reading, but like with telepathy.

510
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: It's.

511
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: That's such a cute shirt.

512
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: I was like, I would not last a day. I'm

513
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: too sensitive.

514
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: Same yeah. And then from this came voguing, a dance

515
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: that would happen between two or more people who were

516
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: like feuding and throwing shade at each other other. There's

517
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: also talk of class and wealth. None of the people

518
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: featured in the documentary have much money, but part of

519
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: Ballroom is fashion oriented and fashion costs money. High fashion

520
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: costs a lot of money. So we learn about something

521
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: called mopping, which and I think it's Freddy Pandavis, who

522
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 2: is my favorite moment of the movie, was like, oh,

523
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, mopping. That's when you know, you go

524
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: into a store and you see something and you see

525
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: something that you want, and then you're looking at it

526
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: and you look at the thing you want. Mopping is stealing.

527
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's basically you just take the outfit you

528
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: want and you don't pay for it. And it's because

529
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: again racism and homophobia and transphobia and all of these

530
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: systemic prejudices make it so that members of this community

531
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: are often living in poverty, and we also learn that

532
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: many of them earn money through sex work. There is

533
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: discussion of gender and transitioning and gender affirming surgeries, where

534
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: different people who are interviewed have different opinions and experiences,

535
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: where in some cases we see trans women living openly

536
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: and happily as such, people like Octavia's Stan Laurent Brooke

537
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: and Carmen Extravaganza Venus Extravaganza, and then in other cases,

538
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: especially when Pepper Labasia is talking about it. There are

539
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: like just more sort of dated attitudes and hints of

540
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: transphobian misogyny. We can talk more about that, and then

541
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: we cut to nineteen eighty nine, so a few years

542
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: have passed. We check back in with a few of

543
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: the major plays of the scene, such as Willie, Ninja,

544
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: Dori and Corey and Angie Extravaganza, who says that Venus

545
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: Extravaganza had been murdered. She was the one who had

546
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: to go and identify the body and pass the news

547
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: along to Angie Extravaganza's biological family. And that's the note

548
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: more or less that the documentary ends on. So that

549
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: is Paris is burning in a nutshell. Let's take another

550
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: quick break and then we'll come back to discuss further.

551
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: And we're back.

552
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: We're back.

553
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: Where shall we start? There's so many places start? Yeah, John,

554
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: does anything stand out to you? Where would you like

555
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: to start?

556
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: You know? So, I think it's I think the one

557
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 3: thing for me that has always really struck me about

558
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: this film is the idea of like and again. When

559
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 3: I saw it in two thousand and four, it was

560
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 3: it was always like a foreign concept and foreign thought

561
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 3: to me. But this idea of chosen family, this idea

562
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: of like, you know, your family turns you know, because

563
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: you you as you grow up hearing this, right, your

564
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 3: family is the only people who always love you. And

565
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: then you come out and then they're like, no, I

566
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: don't just kidding, you know, just kidding by you have

567
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: to go and so, you know, finding people that you

568
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 3: you vibe with, people who truly are there for you

569
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: and care for you and want to see you not

570
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 3: just you know, survive, but like really thrive. That's the thing.

571
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 3: You know. As much as I always thought Dorian and

572
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: Pepper were really shady, I could tell by the way

573
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: they talked about their chosen you know, the folks in

574
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: their different homes and their houses. You could tell that

575
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 3: there was just this very deep love and admiration that

576
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: they both had for the people in their houses. And

577
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: you know, I don't if you don't have you know,

578
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: I'll say this. If you're a listener and you identify

579
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: as straight and sists, I think there's just this And

580
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 3: maybe I don't know how the two of you identify,

581
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,479
Speaker 3: but I know for me, the friends that I have

582
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: and the community I've built, it's the same concept, right,

583
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 3: you can genuinely feel that they just want the best

584
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: for you. And so this film really kind of opened

585
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 3: my mind up to that of, like, you don't necessarily

586
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 3: have to just rely on your family to be happy.

587
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 3: In this world. You can find people who truly want

588
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: the best for you, and you can live and thrive

589
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 3: and be happy and have a full live life, and

590
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 3: you can also have fun. As much as these balls

591
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: were shady and you know, drama was going down, there

592
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 3: were moments where people were really happy, and there were

593
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: moments when people were celebrating, you know, each other, And

594
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: so I just thought that was really funny. And the

595
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: last thing I'll say, I always thought it was really

596
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: funny in the scene where Dorian is talking and that

597
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 3: cat is walking behind her, Oh my god. I always

598
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 3: said that Dorian reminds me of like, not, lady, what

599
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: movie is that with the cat? It's a Disney movie.

600
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: And for his New Groove, there's another movie where these

601
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: cats are walking and they're just really is it the

602
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 3: Siamese Ones? We are Siamese. It's always in the Lady

603
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: in the Tramp. Okay, I was right. I was gonna

604
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: say that, but I wasn't wasn't sure she reminds me

605
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: of like a Siamese cat in the sense of like

606
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 3: she just knows she's regal, she just knows she's better

607
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: than everyone else. And I was like, it just was

608
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 3: so funny to me as I was watching that doc

609
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 3: I was like, of course there would be a cat

610
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 3: behind her because her personality is so much like a

611
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: Siamese cat. So it's just I thought that was funny.

612
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I loved the cat.

613
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: It was really I mean, I I going off of

614
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: what you were just talking about, John, it was really cool.

615
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: I mean the I mean, there's so many benefits to

616
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: this being a documentary obviously, but where on this show.

617
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: Over the years, we've talked about so many movies that

618
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: have really appealed to queer audiences because of the element

619
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 1: it's a found family in fiction. But there's no coding here.

620
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: You're just seeing the families. There is no like, you know,

621
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: mental hoops that you have to go through to feel

622
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: seen in a movie like Paris is Burning and that's

623
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: so singular and so, you know, not completely unheard of

624
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: at this time, but certainly on it seems like this

625
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: scale of success, which is really amazing but brings me

626
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: there's something I wanted to just touch on that. I mean,

627
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: I wasn't aware really about anything when it came to

628
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 1: the production of this movie, and wow, there's a lot.

629
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on that have also echoed conversations

630
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: we've had before. I did not know that this movie

631
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: was directed by a white woman, for example. But the

632
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: director of this movie, Jenny Livingston, directed it when she

633
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: was in I believe her late twenties. It's her first feature,

634
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: and that and other elements of this production has garnered

635
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: quite a bit of controversy over the years. I think

636
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: rightfully so Jenny Livingston, I can share some quotes, but

637
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: has generally stood her ground on this that there's a

638
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: few different buckets of conversation and how Paris's Burning has

639
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: been criticized. It's been criticized for having a white director

640
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: and primarily featuring Black and Latin people in this community.

641
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: There's also a compensation that I would really like to

642
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: talk about because it reminds me a lot of way

643
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: back when when we covered Tangerine by Sean Baker, where

644
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 1: because white filmmakers statistically have a better chance of getting

645
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: their film made scene and profiting from it, while it

646
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: can produce really amazing work. It doesn't mean that those

647
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: who are featured, like the entire cast of Paris Is Burning,

648
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: is getting equally compensated for literally making the movie. What

649
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: it is not that Jenny Livings and did nothing. Obviously

650
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: a lot of great work went into making this film,

651
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: but it's their stories and that is the appeal of

652
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: the film. And so there's been a lot of conversation

653
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: about that. At the time. I mean, this gets into

654
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: like one of my pet peeves, so we'll I'll just

655
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: shut up about it as quickly as possible. But compensating

656
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: interviewees and how taboo that is across nonfiction filmmaking. I

657
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: just think it's such a crack of shit. But you know,

658
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: when this film was being made, that was the general

659
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: agreement that you know, everyone signed off and agreed to.

660
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: But as is unpacked in both Hollywood Reporter article from

661
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: a twenty twenty one and a Vanity Fair article from

662
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen that reflects on this, a lot of why

663
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: the subjects of this film agreed to do it is

664
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: because they really wanted their stories out there. And so

665
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: there is the argument that cast members have subsequently made

666
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: that like, yes, I did sign the piece of paper.

667
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: I wanted our community and I wanted my story out there.

668
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: I agreed to not be compensated. But then the movie

669
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: was acquired by Miramax and one stuff at sun Dance,

670
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: and you know, eventually made four million dollars and is

671
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: the basis of polls. And who's seen most of that

672
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: money is Jenny Livingston, and so there have been rivalries.

673
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: It does, I guess to her credit. It seems like

674
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: Jenny Livingston has you know, attempted to correct this overtime.

675
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: But it was it was a long, a long standing conversation.

676
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: I won't unpack it beat by beat because it's literally

677
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: thirty five years of back and forth. But I do

678
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: want to share a quote from Jenny Livingston defending herself

679
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: as a white woman. Let's see what she has to say.

680
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: This is her, you know, disputing that Paris's Burning was

681
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: made for white people. She says, the sense that this

682
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: was a production by white pa before white people, that's

683
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: not historical. That is a projection rather than a truth.

684
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: You have to see paris Is Burning in the context

685
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: of nonfiction. She said versions of this over the years.

686
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: What she mainly appears to be alluding to is the

687
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: fact that she feels that this erases many of her

688
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: black collaborators who were working as producers and consultants. But

689
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: the compensation issue, I think there's just she doesn't have

690
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: much of a leg to stand on, I feel. So

691
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to share a quote from Pepper, who is now,

692
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: as is most of the cast of this movie is

693
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: no longer with us. But this is from an interview

694
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: Pepper did when she was forty four, So nineteen ninety three,

695
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: a California magazine said I had sued Miramax in one

696
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: untold millions and was seen shopping with Diana Ross on

697
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: Rodeo Drive in a roles But I really just live

698
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: in the Bronx with my mom, and I am so

699
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: desperate to get out of here. It's hard to be

700
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: the mother of a house when you're living with your

701
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: own mother. And so, as we've seen for many marginalized performers,

702
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: there is a lot of publicity, there's this big cultural moment,

703
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: but it doesn't translate to sustained financials, and that is always, always,

704
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: always the case. I know we talked about it with

705
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: Tangerine as well, but it really stands out here too

706
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: where it's you know, a very similar you know, one's fiction,

707
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: one's nonfiction, but a very similar setup where the white

708
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: filmmaker makes a really good film but does not compensate

709
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: her collaborators appropriately. And it seems like I want to wait,

710
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: there's so many names. Let me see if I can

711
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: find the three names I'm looking for. As of twenty

712
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: twenty one, there were still three surviving cast members from

713
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: Paris Is Burning. I actually didn't know that Poe's was

714
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: like based based on Paris's Burning. I know there's I

715
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: knew that they were like they both surround ballroom culture,

716
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: but it's like officially based. Jenny Livingston was a consultant

717
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,479
Speaker 1: on the first two seasons, and that is a Ryan

718
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: Murphy joint. And we don't have enough time to unpack

719
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy today. But the surviving cast members were invited

720
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: to be consultants, including Junior le Beajia, who is in

721
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: Paris Is Burning, but he was the one of three

722
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: that said no because he felt that there it was

723
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: history repeating itself with Poe's being another story about predominantly

724
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: black and brown communities in ballroom, this time by Ryan Murphy.

725
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: So it's again there's a white creative at the top,

726
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: and he's like, you know, I would love to get

727
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: a check here, but like you're doing it again, and

728
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: it's you know, twenty five years later, so we can

729
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: link those pieces in the description. But yeah, I mean,

730
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: this was just a conversation I was not aware of

731
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: at all and found very interesting.

732
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: Definitely that kind of brings me to Belle Hooks his

733
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: critics of this movie. I believe this quote comes from

734
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: her book entitled Black Looks, Race and Representation. Bell Hooks

735
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: said quote, watching Paris's Burning, I began to think that

736
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 2: the many yuppy looking, straight acting, pushy, predominantly white folks

737
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: in the audience were there because the film in no

738
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: way interrogates whiteness. These folks left the film saying it

739
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 2: was amazing, marvelous, incredibly funny, worthy of statements like didn't

740
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: you just love it? And no, I didn't love it,

741
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: for in many ways, the film was a graphic documentary

742
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: portrait of the way in which colonized black people, in

743
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 2: this case black gay brothers, some of whom were drag

744
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: Queen's worship at the throne of whiteness, even when such

745
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 2: worship demands that we live in perpetual self hate, steal,

746
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: go hungry, and even die in its pursuit. We evoked

747
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: here is all of us black people, slash people of color,

748
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 2: who are daily bombarded by a powerful colonizing whiteness that

749
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: seduces us away from ourselves, that negates that there is

750
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: beauty to be found in any form of blackness that

751
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 2: is not imitation whiteness. And I see where she's coming

752
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: from with this criticism because different people being interviewed in

753
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 2: the documentary will say things like how they long to

754
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: be rich, and they point out that part of the

755
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: appeal of balls is that you can be whoever you

756
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: want to be at a ball and you can live

757
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: a fantasy of being able to be an executive or

758
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: a socialite or other type of wealthy person because society

759
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: will not afford you those opportunities if you are black, brown, queer.

760
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: But this mentality of putting being wealthy on a pedestal

761
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: and emulating business ex executives and like doing ceo drag.

762
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: Like Dorian lays that out like really eloquently.

763
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah right, But this mentality is very reflective of

764
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 2: the times. You know, it's the Reagan era economic ideals

765
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: of the eighties, and there wasn't a ton of pushback

766
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: on that at the time, even from marginalized communities, because

767
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: those ideals were just so pervasive, to the point where

768
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: it was not super common to interrogate things like capitalism

769
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: and white supremacy because they had just been so so

770
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: so normalized. And you know, pre Internet, there weren't as

771
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: many ways or resources to educate yourself or to spread

772
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: information widely except by mainstream media, which was perpetuating these

773
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 2: white supremacist, capitalist, cis, heteronormative ideologies. And I know Bell

774
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: Hooks's criticism is like, yeah, but you still can and

775
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 2: should interrogate those things. So why didn't this documentary which

776
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: also fair, but like, I don't know, it's very tricky,

777
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 2: and it also just speaks to how influential media is,

778
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: where ballroom contestants through the decades were you know, emulating

779
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: movie stars and characters from shows like Dynasty, which I

780
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: was like, oh, yeah, that is a show that I've

781
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: never watched and don't know anything about, but it was

782
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: very popular in the eighties.

783
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: It really been lost to time. I don't think anyone

784
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: like revisits it really, right.

785
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and they did redo it recently they

786
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: did it.

787
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: Was in like twenty seventeen.

788
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, they did for ABC. I think ABC redid it

789
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 3: and it didn't go anywhere. But I think you speak

790
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 3: to so that I think that's the love hate that

791
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: I have with this film, right. I love what this

792
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 3: film stands for because I am a blackquar person who

793
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 3: is also you know, recognizing that even in twenty twenty five,

794
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 3: a lot of the stuff that they said in the

795
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: nineties was extreme. I mean twenty five years was it

796
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: twenty five years ago, thirty five years ago or thirty

797
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 3: five thirty five? Okay, so we're thirty five years out

798
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: from this film. You know, even thirty five years ago,

799
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 3: there were folks who were still dealing with a lot

800
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: of the stuff we're dealing in twenty twenty five. And

801
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: I think that's, like I said, the thing that I

802
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: love is that you see the resilience of these people saying,

803
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 3: you know, regardless, I'm going to live the life I

804
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: want to live, i want to be happy, I'm going

805
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: to find my people, I'm going to find joy. But also,

806
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 3: like I think that's the real issue I had with

807
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 3: the film is that we don't interrogate anything like we

808
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 3: leave these people kind of where we found them, Like

809
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: it's very much. We see you in squalor. We see

810
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 3: that you're going through it. We see that you're unhappy

811
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 3: to an extent, and you're using ballroom to find joy,

812
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: but we're not offering you any resources to get you

813
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 3: to a place where when you're done with this ball

814
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 3: you have somewhere to go to your head where you

815
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 3: feel safe, you feel seen, you have you know, you

816
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 3: have your means. And so I think that that's the

817
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 3: thing that gets lost in translation, is you know, and

818
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 3: I've had to say this on so many different accords.

819
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 3: I actually just sent an email about this this week.

820
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 3: You know, I don't need a handout. I just need

821
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 3: a hand And I think that's the thing that you know,

822
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people in the early nineties,

823
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 3: especially when we're coming out of Reaganomics, we're watching black

824
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 3: and brown people say these systems are set up to

825
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 3: watch me fail, and I'm doing my best to survive

826
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 3: them and survive through them. And the best way I

827
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 3: know how to do that is through sex work, you know,

828
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 3: to the degree like I'm looking around and I'm going

829
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 3: help these people, like give them something like but then

830
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 3: you also have to interrogate. Okay, if Jenny did come

831
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 3: in and she was like, here's some money, then people

832
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: would be interrogating her and calling her the white savior, right. So,

833
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 3: but I think that there's just there's so many levels

834
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 3: to oppression, and I think the biggest thing that I

835
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 3: want folks in my rambling to hear is that there,

836
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: you know, we all have to be so intentional about

837
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 3: how we're just I won't even say reporting, because I

838
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 3: don't think anyone really reports on our stories anymore. But

839
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 3: I think the way that we talk about, you know,

840
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 3: the injustices that we face, right, there is an element

841
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 3: of privilege that's there. And I think that there's so

842
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 3: much education you have to do to make sure that

843
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: when you're going into a community that is oppressed, or

844
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 3: when you're going into a community that needs that kind

845
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 3: of help, that you've done your own intentional work to

846
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 3: make sure that you're not causing more harm. And I

847
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 3: think that's the thing that is most important for me

848
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 3: about watching this film. It's like, yes, it's funny, and

849
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 3: it's created such a you know, a culturally thing, and

850
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 3: I mean ru Paul is mentioning this film like almost

851
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 3: every season. At this point, he's had seventeen seasons of

852
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: Drag Race and he comes up every single season. But

853
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing is is that you have

854
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 3: so many people who are still oppressed and are still

855
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: striving to find peace after the ball, and it's like,

856
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: what do we do? What do we do to end that?

857
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 3: What do we do to help get these people the

858
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 3: resources that they need so that way they're not left for,

859
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 3: you know, left And I'm trying to be mindful of

860
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: my words because I saw your your note.

861
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we don't use like zoomer, we don't

862
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: use like TikTok girls.

863
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, So just just being careful of that, right,

864
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 3: like why are we not you know, how are we

865
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 3: not leaving? Because that's really what it is. I mean,

866
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 3: the fact that it ends on talking about this trans

867
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: woman being killed. It so bothersome to me that that's

868
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: kind of how the film ends. And it's like no

869
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 3: one said or did anything about that, right, you know,

870
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 3: So I don't know, it's just it's it's like I said,

871
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 3: it's it's it's uplifting, but it's like I guess my

872
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 3: and I'm trying not to get into my social justice soapbox.

873
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 3: But I'm like, why is it that we're always having

874
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 3: to be resilient? Like why why why do people enjoy

875
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 3: watching us struggle and and try to find joy in that?

876
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 3: And you know, and I get this all the time too,

877
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 3: even with me. You know, oh, you have a book

878
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 3: coming out, you have a podcasting, you want to warns

879
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 3: it's so great, and it's like I shouldn't have to

880
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 3: be celebrated for all that I've been through to get

881
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 3: to where I am, like, I don't don't do that.

882
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 3: We shouldn't have to do that. So yeah, it's just

883
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 3: something I think a lot about after watching this film.

884
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 2: And then like there's an extreme end of that spectrum

885
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: with like the appropriation of voguing.

886
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: Donna's right, which came out even before this. That was

887
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that had come out before this documentary.

888
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: I think the documentary was filmed, but they were released

889
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: around the same time, so in some ways it was like,

890
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: you know, Madonna was you know, starting to sort of

891
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: steal voguing in the late eighties, and then by the

892
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: time the movie comes out, the video is already out

893
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 1: and it's didn't affect her career that's for fucking sure, right.

894
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 2: And obviously the criticism is that, you know, Madonna and

895
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: already famous rich cis well, woman is profiting off of

896
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: something that she appropriated from ye black and brown queer communities,

897
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: and and most people didn't realize that.

898
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: I would even also say too, there's a document I

899
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 3: don't want to get too much away from Paris's Burning,

900
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 3: but there is a documentary about how dirty she did

901
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 3: her people, the people that she appropriated from, her choreographers

902
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 3: and her dancers that were also in these communities that

903
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: she quote unquote hired and then just let them go,

904
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 3: and how they were just kind of like, yo, you

905
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 3: came in here, and you know, you stole this from

906
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 3: us and and and then didn't give us anything. And

907
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 3: so it's just there's so much to say about entertainment,

908
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: which is like white.

909
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like white pop stars one oh one. It's

910
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: like it's so much evil. It's I also wanted to

911
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: mention and this isn't you know, this isn't a necessarily

912
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: on Jenny Livingston, but where Paris's Burning was sort of

913
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 1: spoke about in media at this time of like there's

914
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: never been a documentary like this before which is patently untrue.

915
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: It is that most of the documentaries made about underground cultures,

916
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: about queer cultures were made by queer black and brown filmmakers,

917
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: and so they just never got the attention or distribution.

918
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: The filmmaker I've seen most mentioned in this conversation who

919
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: was making films around the same time, around a lot

920
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: of the same themes, and had a personal connection to

921
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: these communities was Marlon Riggs, who directed I think four documentaries.

922
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: He passed of complications from AIDS when he was just

923
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: thirty seven. But this was a filmmaker who was working

924
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: at the time of Paris is burning, but his work

925
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: was never spotlighted. And then you see, you know, Jenny Livingston,

926
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: who is a complete you know, admitted it's not like

927
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: she's pretending that she has, you know, intense connection to

928
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: this culture, but she's a complete outsider and it's her

929
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: project that gets the financing, that gets the sun dance,

930
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 1: accolades and all that, which is again just something a

931
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: pattern we say repeated in entertainment over and over and

932
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: over and over.

933
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 2: I wanted to touch a little bit more on the

934
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 2: differing attitudes that are based to some degree on like

935
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 2: different generations in this scene and how you know, for example,

936
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,479
Speaker 2: Pepper Labasia, who again preferred she her pronouns and had

937
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 2: breast implants, but I identified as a gay man who

938
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 2: emulated women but was not a woman, and says she

939
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: would never have any surgery that would like, you know,

940
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 2: give her a vagina and quote unquote make her a woman.

941
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: And she says that she would never recommend anyone have

942
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: that type of surgery because, oh what if they change

943
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 2: their mind? And oh, being a woman in the world

944
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 2: is hard. Why would you want to subject yourself to

945
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 2: the mistreatment and abuse and misogyny that women have to face,

946
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 2: which you know, when we watch this in twenty twenty five,

947
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 2: we realize that's a very like antiquated, enrigid way of

948
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 2: thinking about identity and transitioning. And it's like steeped in

949
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: this idea of your genitals determine your gender and it's

950
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 2: okay to deny someone something they want because I assume

951
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: that they will change their mind about what they want

952
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 2: and all these things. And I mean, I appreciate that

953
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: that is represented in this documentary just to show that

954
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 2: there are differing viewpoints, because that's also like juxtaposed, right,

955
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: next to trans women living happy lives as trans women

956
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: who have had gender affirming surgery. And it was just

957
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: interesting to see those opinions being included in the documentary

958
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 2: because and you hate to see it, but there are

959
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: and have been prejudices within marginalized communities. You know, it's

960
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 2: not constant solidarity all the time, especially in an era

961
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 2: like the eighties but also up to and including now.

962
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and that the movie itself doesn't at least

963
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I let me know if you feel differently,

964
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: But it didn't see like the movie was taking any

965
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: particular side. It was just presenting this is how this

966
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: person feels on this issue, which is a useful like

967
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: historical document And I don't know, I mean, not to

968
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: go back to drag race too much, but but again,

969
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: I really like it didn't ping for me when I

970
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: saw this movie in high school. But I kind of

971
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: forgot that trans drag queens and CIS drag queens were

972
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: so intermixed in the ballroom scene. And that's something that

973
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: also is touched on quite a bit and decolonized drag

974
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: and just its criticisms of drag race and how it

975
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: doesn't always or hasn't always promoted true inclusion, and yeah,

976
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: I appreciated like seeing especially, I mean like it. I

977
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: don't know. I also did not remember how Venus's life ended,

978
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: which is still, I mean, to this day all too

979
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 1: common of trans folks being murdered and no one doing

980
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: anything to seek out I mean, who had done it,

981
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: because they're just not treated. While I thought of like

982
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: Sam Nordquist who was just found killed a transman in Minnesota,

983
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: and I mean, there's just so many, so many, so

984
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: many examples from over the years. And to note that Venus,

985
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: you know, was I Belave Italian and Puerto Rican, was

986
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: supporting herself through sex work and was found killed is

987
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: just it's so devastating. And I don't know. I mean,

988
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know what I wanted the movie

989
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: to do with that, but I just I don't know.

990
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: I guess I wasn't trying to make a point, it

991
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: just was. It was really tragic and horrible and it's

992
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: still something that we're very much dealing with now.

993
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the scary part, you know, so

994
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 3: I will say this, I love our stories being told

995
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 3: in this way, right, but I think that there's also something,

996
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: like I said, kind of going back to my brant

997
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 3: about care, I think there's also something extremely scary about

998
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 3: our stories being told this way because now, you know,

999
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 3: especially with the way that this film ends, it shows

1000
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 3: how disposable black trans people, trans people can be. Right.

1001
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 3: So that's something that I think, you know, I if

1002
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 3: there are any documentarians out there who's who's listening to

1003
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 3: this and are thinking, oh, I want to do this

1004
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: documentary or I want to I want to do this

1005
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 3: type of research, I think this film is a great

1006
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 3: place to kind of come back and to like examine

1007
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 3: and say, like, what are all of the things that

1008
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 3: Genny did right? And what are all the things that

1009
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 3: Genny did wrong, especially when you're working with marginalized people.

1010
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 3: Because even for me, right as someone who loves I'll

1011
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 3: tell you right now, I will tune into I'm I

1012
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 3: was watching one last night, the Parpito documentary on Netflix,

1013
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 3: and there is a documentary. But yes, if it's a

1014
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 3: true crime anything, mama is locked in. But I will

1015
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 3: say to to that point, I think, you know, we

1016
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 3: we have to There's got to be an element, especially

1017
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 3: when we're dealing with marginalized people, that we have to

1018
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 3: be very mindful demure and even I would even challenge

1019
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 3: to be you know, to be cautious about how we're

1020
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 3: how we're framing you know, stories and stories lines. But yeah,

1021
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 3: I will say that I do appreciate that there is

1022
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 3: you know, joy, We're still left with joy from the film.

1023
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 3: And even now, you know, like I said, when I

1024
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 3: watch shows that reference and I watch movies that reference that,

1025
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 3: or even you know, I revisited Polls a couple of

1026
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 3: months ago. It was just really it was affirming to

1027
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 3: see the impact that this documentary had on so many people,

1028
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 3: even now, like you said, thirty five years later.

1029
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely right, because it does certainly something to normalize this

1030
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: subculture and bring awareness to people about it, because I'm

1031
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 2: sure there are lots of people around the country slash

1032
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 2: world who would have no other way really of knowing

1033
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 2: about it, especially in previous decades.

1034
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean all three of us were right, you know.

1035
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the fact that it's like taught in schools

1036
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 2: and universities, and like I put it, I added it

1037
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: to my list because it kept coming up in textbooks

1038
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 2: I was reading about like significant queer cinema, so it

1039
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 2: being pretty mainstream has you know, I think done net good.

1040
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 2: But also like, yeah, the note that it ends on

1041
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: where it is basically just like, yes, Venus Extravaganza was

1042
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: found murdered the end.

1043
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: That's all that's said. Yeah, that's all that said. And

1044
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 1: then we see I believe it's Willie, who has since

1045
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: seen a lot of success. It feels like they're almost

1046
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: presented in opposition to each other, and.

1047
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: Right, here are the two possible outcomes, right like being

1048
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 2: a participant in this community.

1049
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: I wish more care had been taken with. I mean,

1050
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: I feel like, I don't know, I'm not going to

1051
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: redo her movie for her. It's done, it's done. But

1052
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 1: but I would have stayed seated for another half hour

1053
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: forty five minutes to really get into the two years later,

1054
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: because it felt like very much like an after method.

1055
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it was intending to be dismissive, but

1056
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: I think, like, like we've all said at this point,

1057
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: it just felt like and then this happened and it

1058
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: was happy, and then this happened and it was sad.

1059
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 1: These are the two outcomes, thank you, good night, And

1060
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: it's just like, well.

1061
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 4: No, that's giving way a second.

1062
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 3: It did not come here for this, is there more? Yeah,

1063
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 3: you're like girl, I know you have more be rail

1064
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 3: than that, you know, so I know there's gotta be

1065
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 3: some found footage somewhere.

1066
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: It's really and getting back to Bell Hook's criticism of

1067
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: this movie, I mean, there's no criticism of the failure

1068
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 1: of policing to investigate these murders.

1069
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it.

1070
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 1: It's just like there's so many there are moments where

1071
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 1: I feel like it really works to this documentary's advantage

1072
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: to let the subjects just speak, not take a clear

1073
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: like this is what I Jenny am trying to say,

1074
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: Like that's not her job here, But there's so much

1075
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 1: that's left on the table that I suspect there had

1076
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: to have been some footage about and if there wasn't,

1077
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 1: maybe the right questions aren't being asked because there is

1078
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: so much about this specific period in time that's still

1079
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 1: resonant now that it just feels like is either just

1080
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: referenced in passing or like doesn't really come up. And

1081
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: I think that like Bill Hooks was right to criticize

1082
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: the audience reactions. That's if that's the audience's takeaway of likeugh,

1083
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: loved it anyways, brunch time, Like then there you know

1084
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: you can't control how people receive your work, but that

1085
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: does feel like a failure of the documentary to some degree.

1086
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was going to say, to your point,

1087
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: one of the things I'm thinking a lot about to here,

1088
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 3: you know, there could have been and so in my mind,

1089
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 3: so I actually wrote a story about you know, the

1090
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 3: I think it was, was it twenty or twenty twenty one.

1091
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 3: I wrote something about the whole fiasco and how people

1092
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 3: are looking at Jenny Livingstone and now right basically in

1093
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 3: our world, Now, what does this film for Slay? I

1094
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 3: think it was for Slade. I wrote it for And

1095
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 3: I will say this, I actually was in the mind

1096
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 3: you know, actually while I was writing the article, one

1097
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 3: of the things that I had picked up on was

1098
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 3: that folks who were connected to this film back in

1099
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 3: the nineties, they didn't want this to become because again,

1100
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 3: we were living in a political state, right, we had

1101
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 3: to act up, folks, you know, things going on and

1102
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 3: act up. We were five, we were only maybe four

1103
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 3: or five years into the you know, the AIDS crisis,

1104
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 3: and so there's all of these things. And so I think,

1105
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 3: to an extent, you know, one of the justifications of

1106
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 3: Jenny leaving this stuff out is. I don't want this

1107
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 3: to become a political film, right, I don't want this

1108
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 3: to be about, you know, the politics of being black

1109
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 3: and queer. I just wanted to celebrate ballroom. I wanted

1110
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 3: to celebrate a culture and that's it, right, Okay, fair,

1111
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 3: but me, especially me from an intersectional lens, right, we

1112
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 3: cannot just talk about blackness and queerness and ball community

1113
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,919
Speaker 3: without talking about the politics of being black and queer

1114
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 3: at this time. So it's almost like, you know, like,

1115
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 3: like I said, I understand what she was trying to do,

1116
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 3: But at the same time, we have the term intersectionality

1117
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 3: being coined in eighty nine. So I'm thinking to myself, well,

1118
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 3: why wasn't this film done from an intersectional lens where

1119
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 3: we're watching oppression, you know, asking the question right and

1120
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 3: formulating our questions from this place of how is oppression

1121
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 3: impacting those who participate in ballroom?

1122
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: Right?

1123
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 3: Like that that should have been the focus and then

1124
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 3: we could have maybe moved into this what are we

1125
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 3: going to do to vindicate Venus in her life? Right?

1126
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,479
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, and again, and I don't

1127
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 3: want to be heavy. I don't want to be one

1128
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 3: of those people that put their foot on Jenny's neck.

1129
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: She's had enough people put their foot on her, so

1130
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 3: I get it. But what I'm saying is is I

1131
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 3: think that, you know, like I said to my point earlier,

1132
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 3: I think we have to be when we're creating art

1133
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 3: and where, you know, we're trying to tell a story,

1134
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 3: we have to sometimes get away from the fear of

1135
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 3: it quote unquote being too political because we are political.

1136
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 2: Everything is just political. Whoa, I said brilliantly and blew

1137
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 2: everyone's minds wide open.

1138
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I I it's I didn't I

1139
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: didn't realize that you'd written about it, John, That's I.

1140
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, it just felt like there there

1141
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 1: was a lot that feels mysteriously absent. I don't know, particularly,

1142
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean looking at I was, you know, just looking

1143
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: into like where the folks from this documentary documentary are now?

1144
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:54,479
Speaker 1: There are still three living cast members, Freddy and Saul

1145
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 1: pen Davis and Junior li Bejia is still alive as well,

1146
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 1: but most of the cast is gone and the majority

1147
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 1: of them died because of complications related to AIDS. And

1148
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, it's like definitely not I'm

1149
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: not the person to determine how much does that factor

1150
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 1: into this narrative or not. But I've seen the criticism

1151
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: around like where is you know?

1152
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 2: Something that I also thought the documentary might touch on

1153
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:36,439
Speaker 2: but doesn't is the history of ballroom. And I'm by

1154
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 2: no means an expert. I am pulling this a lot

1155
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 2: from scholarly journal Wikipedia, but just to kind of contextualize

1156
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 2: ballroom a little bit. Its origins trace back to the

1157
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 2: mid eighteen hundreds, where, for example, a person by the

1158
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 2: name of William Dorsey Swan, a formerly enslaved person and

1159
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,959
Speaker 2: the first person to describe themselves as a drag queen,

1160
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 2: started hosting secret balls in Washington, DC in the I

1161
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 2: think late eighteen hundreds. Many of the attendees of these

1162
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:30,799
Speaker 2: balls were black men. They would be arrested in police

1163
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 2: raids frequently, but the balls would continue. They caught on.

1164
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 2: Other cities started them. By the eighteen nineties, there were

1165
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 2: similar drag events organized in New York. By nineteen thirty,

1166
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 2: there were similar events in Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore, Philadelphia,

1167
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 2: other cities. They were generally racially integrated, although there was

1168
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 2: a lot of race within that space, and so by

1169
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties, there was you know, predominantly black balls,

1170
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 2: you know, black and brown balls, because they were like,

1171
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 2: we don't want to deal with the racism in these

1172
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 2: integrated spaces because the white people are treating us badly.

1173
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 2: And then that led to a lot of the houses

1174
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:29,759
Speaker 2: that we see represented in Paris's Burning, where for example,

1175
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 2: like Crystal Liabasia founded the House of Liabysia in Harlem

1176
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 2: in the early seventies and that was, you know, part

1177
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 2: of the kind of origins of the specific scene that

1178
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 2: we see represented in the movie. But anyway, there's much

1179
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 2: more information. Again I'm not an expert, but I feel

1180
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 2: like a documentary today would have been like where did

1181
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 2: ballroom come from? You know, and it would have like

1182
01:09:58,120 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 2: gone through that history quite a bit more.

1183
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: But it feels more like a style choice of like

1184
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:06,760
Speaker 1: we're just dropped into this world and there's so much

1185
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:10,440
Speaker 1: I mean, that also speaks to like how under educated

1186
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: you know, people generally are about drag culture.

1187
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 2: The other thing that the documentary to me doesn't make clear.

1188
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,839
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the title Paris Is Burning,

1189
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 2: and it refers to a ball of the same name

1190
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 2: that was held annually by Paris Dupree who was the

1191
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 2: founding member and mother of the House of Dupre. Paris

1192
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,879
Speaker 2: Dupree is credited as one of the pioneers of voguing.

1193
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 2: Paris is seen briefly and mentioned briefly in the documentary,

1194
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 2: but not heavily featured or interviewed. And so I was like, oh,

1195
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 2: interesting that you call the documentary Paris is Burning after

1196
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 2: Paris Dupree's event, but like it's not really a feature

1197
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 2: or interview Paris de Brea.

1198
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1199
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 2: Interesting, but wow. Yeah, I wanted to look into that

1200
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 2: because I was like, why is this called Paris is Burning?

1201
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 2: And that's why is there anything else anyone wants to discuss?

1202
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: Regarding the movie.

1203
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 3: I will say it's an annual It's a film you

1204
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 3: should watch annually at least once a year.

1205
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely get some friends together.

1206
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 1: Yes, it's great. Yeah. So for for all of the

1207
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 1: for all of the criticizing we've been doing for the

1208
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 1: past hour plus, it is a terrific movie. It's very, very,

1209
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 1: very rewatchable. And I think, I mean, as we've all

1210
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 1: sort of talked about, it was a gateway for it's

1211
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 1: a it's a gateway watch. I think, like you know,

1212
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: it's definitely a good one on one for ballroom culture

1213
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 1: that it seems like has paved the way for a

1214
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 1: lot of other work, and some of that, although Ryan

1215
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 1: Murphy is not a good example, is not made by

1216
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 1: Cis white creators. So I think it definitely has a

1217
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 1: strong place in history. And it's also just like, yeah,

1218
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: it's just such a great watch.

1219
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 2: Definitely, the music, choices, the fashion, it's.

1220
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:16,719
Speaker 3: All of it.

1221
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: Yes, the cat, the cat.

1222
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:21,879
Speaker 3: Now the other thing. I don't know if I'm supposed

1223
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 3: to talk about this on the air, y'all. Do know

1224
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 3: that there was some stuff with mother Later on in

1225
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 3: the years, they found folks in Dorian's closet. I don't

1226
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: know if we want.

1227
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,719
Speaker 2: To Oh, we can't wait.

1228
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I forgot that that was Dorian. Oh okay, wait,

1229
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about it just really quickly. Yeah.

1230
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 3: I don't want to go into the mess too much

1231
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 3: because I don't want it to overshadow the joy of

1232
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 3: this film. But I'm just letting you know that that

1233
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:49,959
Speaker 3: was That is a piece.

1234
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 1: Of the history, and history is a many headed, complicated thing.

1235
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 2: Wait for our listeners and also me who doesn't know

1236
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,679
Speaker 2: about this, could you say, yeah.

1237
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like there's like five listeners right now

1238
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:07,599
Speaker 1: that heard us ending the episode and we're screaming at

1239
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: the top of their lungs. Okay, yeah, yeah, John, take

1240
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: it away, like.

1241
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 3: No, not more, but okay. So there is an article

1242
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 3: and it says a famous drac Queen, a mummy in

1243
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:22,759
Speaker 3: the closet, and a baffling mystery, and this was written

1244
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen and so so so what I will

1245
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 3: also posit and say if you are a pose watcher,

1246
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 3: you will know that. I think it was either season

1247
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 3: two or season three. Towards the end of the season.

1248
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 3: There is an actual episode where they're talking about this,

1249
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 3: Uh there's a Louis Vauton trunk that is in I

1250
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 3: think it's in Who's uh, what's her name's house? But anyway,

1251
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 3: all that to be said, they're trying to get to

1252
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 3: this trunk. Well, it's based off of this story surrounding

1253
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 3: Dorian Corey, and I guess one of the clips of

1254
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 3: this article, it says what stands in starkes contrast to

1255
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,959
Speaker 3: the gruesome implications in her closet, it is Corey's demeanor.

1256
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 3: The most extensive video of Corey is in nineteen nineties

1257
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:09,639
Speaker 3: Jennie Livingston's documentary. It's an examination of aforementioned ball culture

1258
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:13,559
Speaker 3: and interviews. She's witty, realistic, and unflappable. In contrast to

1259
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:17,640
Speaker 3: the grandiosity of aspiring models and housewives. She has a

1260
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 3: self possessed cadence and world weary observations, which endear her

1261
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 3: to be a comparatively mainstream audience. So, you know, there's

1262
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 3: this notion that she's just very fun and very you know,

1263
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:35,600
Speaker 3: witty and very you know, very endearing per se. But

1264
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 3: I guess it's probable that there was something that was

1265
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 3: happening between nineteen eighty eight and nineteen ninety and ultimately

1266
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 3: she tucked it away in her closet.

1267
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 1: So okay, yeah, I forgot. How dare I forget about

1268
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: the mummy? Truly?

1269
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:54,440
Speaker 2: The I'm so confused.

1270
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 1: So it's so dead, Bob I was. I would say,

1271
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 1: there's a dead body. I've seen different story as to

1272
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: what the story I was looking at, which is cited

1273
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:11,600
Speaker 1: on scholarly journal Wikipedia, but also is Yeah from a

1274
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five paper called The Drag Queen and the

1275
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 1: Mummy that the body discovered was determined to be dead

1276
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 1: for approximately twenty five years was said to be the

1277
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 1: body of a man named Robert Worley, who hadn't been

1278
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 1: seen since nineteen sixty eight. But it was the theories

1279
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: surrounding that death were either the theories were that Robert

1280
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: and Dorian were in a relationship of some sort and

1281
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:44,479
Speaker 1: that either Robert had been killed and she had hidden

1282
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 1: in his body for whatever reason, or that she had

1283
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 1: killed him in self defense because of violence she was

1284
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 1: experiencing at his hands. And then was like, let's just

1285
01:15:54,960 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 1: go in here. I fascinating lives all around, John, thank

1286
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 1: you for bringing that up.

1287
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:06,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just wanted to say, like, because I don't

1288
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 3: want people listening and being like they totally just over

1289
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 3: they just looked over this whole you know, story. But

1290
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 3: I think it's also tangential to what we're talking about here, right,

1291
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 3: these people, you know, So like I'm even I'm looking

1292
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:21,280
Speaker 3: through the story that I just quickly googled, and it

1293
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 3: said that there's also a rumor that this whoever this

1294
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 3: body was, They basically claim that this man broke into

1295
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 3: her home and tried to rob her, and that it

1296
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:33,320
Speaker 3: was self defense. And so when people ask why she

1297
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 3: kept the body, it says a black drag queen who

1298
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,840
Speaker 3: lived in a poor, dangerous area in the sixties or

1299
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 3: seventies had a little chance of garnering sympathy from the police.

1300
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 3: And so I think it's it's it's as much as

1301
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 3: it's not related to the story of what Genny was

1302
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:50,799
Speaker 3: trying to do with this film, I think it really

1303
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 3: like this story per se says a lot about the

1304
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:57,680
Speaker 3: times that these queer people were living in, right like

1305
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 3: the fear of Okay, well, I I tell someone that

1306
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 3: this man broke into my home and I killed him

1307
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 3: in self defense, and then I still end up in jail,

1308
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 3: and then I end up dead in jail, right right,

1309
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 3: Like that's probably regardless of what the story was. You know,

1310
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,599
Speaker 3: the reality was Dorian was worried about their livelihood and

1311
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 3: so just to be queer at this time, and I

1312
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 3: mean still even now, right, you know, to be worried

1313
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:24,679
Speaker 3: about your livelihood is something that's very real for queer people.

1314
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:27,519
Speaker 3: And you know, as much as like I said, it

1315
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,520
Speaker 3: doesn't relate to the story, it very much does absolutely.

1316
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: I mean, and the ways that I've seen this story,

1317
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 1: I can't believe I didn't connect that it's story and

1318
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 1: from this movie. The ways I've seen the story presented

1319
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:45,680
Speaker 1: over the years has been more framed as clickbait sensationalism

1320
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,480
Speaker 1: in a way that I feel like really leans into biased,

1321
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 1: horrible perspectives of like, well, queer people are inherently violent,

1322
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: and that's why when you find a body in the closet,

1323
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 1: like that is why as opposed to queer people and

1324
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: specifically like black queer people are particularly vulnerable. And like

1325
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: you're just saying, John would not have stood a chance

1326
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 1: at you know, standing up against the white supremacist police state,

1327
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 1: and so it was self defense and was necessary in

1328
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:24,839
Speaker 1: order to survive. I've not really seen that anecdote presented

1329
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,639
Speaker 1: that way. It was more like a fun fact. Did

1330
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 1: you know this famous drag queen from Paris is burning?

1331
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 1: Did you know in the way that I think a

1332
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:38,600
Speaker 1: lot of AI slop kind of leans towards.

1333
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't humanize, it doesn't. And I think that's

1334
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 3: the thing too with these type of not even these stories,

1335
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,520
Speaker 3: but just like I even thine, going back to the documentary,

1336
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 3: it you know, this idea that there's this humanity that's

1337
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:53,599
Speaker 3: not there, you know sometimes you know, and I think

1338
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:57,639
Speaker 3: that's what you know when you were talking about when

1339
01:18:57,640 --> 01:18:59,679
Speaker 3: you were giving the piece about Bill Hooks. I think

1340
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 3: that's what they were ultimately trying to say, that there's

1341
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 3: just this lack of humanity. And I don't even think,

1342
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 3: you know, that's why I said I there was a

1343
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 3: part of me that didn't even want to tell anybody

1344
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,800
Speaker 3: that I was watching the documentary. But it's like, you know,

1345
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 3: I sometimes have to check myself with that of like,

1346
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 3: these were humans. These are people that had really like

1347
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 3: a really terrible thing happened to them, and we sensationalize

1348
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 3: it and there's so much oh my god, this really

1349
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 3: saucy thing happened. You did you hear about it? But

1350
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:30,760
Speaker 3: it's like, yo, like where's the humanity behind it? And

1351
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:33,719
Speaker 3: so I have to catch myself sometimes when I get excited,

1352
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 3: you know, in conversation about these type of films. But yeah,

1353
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 3: that's kind of where I'm left right.

1354
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:46,240
Speaker 2: Well, Paris Is Burning does touch on these topics of class,

1355
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 2: of race, of gender, of sexuality, but it does so

1356
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 2: in a pretty surface way where it'll be like one

1357
01:19:55,040 --> 01:20:01,600
Speaker 2: person's like SoundBite from there, you know, in interview, monologuing

1358
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 2: for a couple sentences about something, and that happens a

1359
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:08,759
Speaker 2: few times throughout the documentary. So It's not as though

1360
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 2: the documentary ignores these topics and the intersections of them,

1361
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 2: but it doesn't zoom out very much as far as like, well,

1362
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 2: how do these things affect these people systemically in larger

1363
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 2: and more significant ways. It doesn't dive deeply into these things.

1364
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:36,519
Speaker 2: It's just pretty I don't want to call it superficial necessarily,

1365
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 2: but it's you know, it's not super deep the way

1366
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,919
Speaker 2: the movie explores these things.

1367
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 1: Which and that connects to something we've talked about a

1368
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: lot where that stands out as particularly when the subjects

1369
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:54,120
Speaker 1: that these films are people who are largely ignored by

1370
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: the rest of culture, and so then it, you know,

1371
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 1: ostensibly becomes the job of one movie to do every everything,

1372
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:04,440
Speaker 1: when the reality is like one movie can't do everything.

1373
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 1: There is plenty to criticize about Jenny's approach here, which

1374
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,160
Speaker 1: we have done and many have done and will continue

1375
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 1: to do it, and rightfully so. But I think it

1376
01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 1: also draws attention to the fact that on a lot

1377
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 1: of I mean think about like how many documentaries are

1378
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 1: there about World War Two, and how every documentary about

1379
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 1: World War two doesn't address every aspect and perspective and

1380
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 1: figure of World War two. But that's okay. There's forty

1381
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: trillion documentaries about World War Two that grandfathers all over

1382
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 1: the world are watching as we speak, and like, there whatever,

1383
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 1: there is more, not that there wasn't more. Like we're saying,

1384
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 1: there were filmmakers that were creating work around these communities,

1385
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 1: but in terms of work that was easily accessible, In

1386
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: terms of work that was getting the financing and marketing

1387
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 1: to support it, there wasn't very much. And so then

1388
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 1: it becomes I mean, it's like a tricky conversation because

1389
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 1: one movie can't do everything, but one movie can do

1390
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:10,640
Speaker 1: more than it's doing.

1391
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:14,640
Speaker 3: It can do something. Chat, that's what I hear.

1392
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, maybe we just need Paris Is Burning to

1393
01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 2: yeah or something, or a different movie.

1394
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 3: Let's start a GoFundMe and we can we can start

1395
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 3: we can be the ones that do that.

1396
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:35,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything else anyone wants to talk about.

1397
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: It's all.

1398
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:36,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1399
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 2: The movie, whether or not it passes the Bechdel test,

1400
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:44,720
Speaker 2: is like not the most applicable since it's a documentary

1401
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:47,920
Speaker 2: format and it's not a lot of people having dialogue.

1402
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 2: But I'm pretty serious anyway, right because many of the

1403
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 2: people featured are people of a marginalized gender, and we

1404
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 2: do see them speak to each other about balls and

1405
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:04,400
Speaker 2: houses and clothes and things like that. So the film

1406
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,639
Speaker 2: does past the Bechtyl test. But what about the Bechtel

1407
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:12,880
Speaker 2: Cast nipple scale, a scale where we rate the movie

1408
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 2: zero to five nipples based on examining it through an

1409
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 2: intersectional feminist lens. John, I see shock and awe on

1410
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:22,799
Speaker 2: your face.

1411
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:28,559
Speaker 1: Anything about Journey nipple? Yes, okay, I really don't know

1412
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 1: what we were thinking, but we committed to it. And

1413
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 1: and that's the scale.

1414
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 3: So one nipple is terrible and five nipples are great.

1415
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:39,839
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, this is correct.

1416
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 3: I would give it. Oh, because you can't do half.

1417
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:46,440
Speaker 2: Nipples, Yes, you can do we do quarter nipples.

1418
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 1: Slice them and dice them. However you like.

1419
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 3: Slice the nipples? Ooh, that's terrifying. Let's go. I would

1420
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:53,960
Speaker 3: do four nipples.

1421
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:58,040
Speaker 2: I'm around that area as well. Yeah, yeah, I think

1422
01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:00,240
Speaker 2: I was going to give it like three point seven five.

1423
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:04,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think three point seven five is perfect.

1424
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I I agree. We've decided it's three point

1425
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 1: seven five and that's.

1426
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 2: That, and that's that. We've discussed the movie's shortcomings, but

1427
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,600
Speaker 2: we've also discussed the many ways in which this is

1428
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 2: a very important piece of cinema and important documentary paved

1429
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:27,240
Speaker 2: the way for similar projects. And uh yeah, I would

1430
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:28,679
Speaker 2: give my nipples too.

1431
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,320
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you can give your nipples away to John.

1432
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:37,160
Speaker 2: We award them. Oh, okay to people. Uh I, I

1433
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:41,200
Speaker 2: sort of just want to give my nipples to everyone

1434
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:45,719
Speaker 2: featured in the documentary. That's and then but specifically setting

1435
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 2: aside one nipple for the cat.

1436
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:52,760
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, I'm gonna just leave my nipples on

1437
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:57,400
Speaker 1: the table. And I wish I could give every participant

1438
01:24:57,439 --> 01:25:01,960
Speaker 1: of this documentary, uh five hundred thousand dollars at the

1439
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 1: time it came up. Oh my god, Like that's just

1440
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:08,559
Speaker 1: I just wish that the subjects of this documentary that

1441
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 1: it's you know, the filmmaking is good, but it is

1442
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 1: the people at the center of this movie that make

1443
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 1: it what it is. That is the reason that we

1444
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 1: are still watching it today, and they should have been

1445
01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:27,839
Speaker 1: compensated better. So yeah, yeah, just distributing money in nineteen

1446
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:29,919
Speaker 1: ninety that's how I'm going to use my nfles.

1447
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:31,799
Speaker 3: Wow.

1448
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 2: Well, John, thank you so much for joining us.

1449
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:37,280
Speaker 3: This was great and this was such a good conversation.

1450
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:39,400
Speaker 3: Thank you for and thank you for thinking of me

1451
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:41,599
Speaker 3: and thank you for including me. This was, like I said,

1452
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 3: I had a really great time, and it also gave

1453
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:47,400
Speaker 3: me a new again. I've watched this film a million times,

1454
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:50,240
Speaker 3: I've written about it, I've done so many things around it.

1455
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:52,639
Speaker 3: But this also gives me a great perspective to think

1456
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,599
Speaker 3: about as I rewatch it. So I will be watching

1457
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 3: it a little bit more closer next time, though.

1458
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:01,160
Speaker 2: I will say that if you want yeah, yeah or not.

1459
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm just like I'm shutting off my brain and

1460
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,240
Speaker 2: watching a thing that I like.

1461
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's me a reality TV.

1462
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:12,880
Speaker 2: We were so delighted to have you. Thank you so

1463
01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 2: much for joining us. Come back anytime for any movie

1464
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 2: you'd like to discuss.

1465
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,400
Speaker 1: Yes, where can we find you? And where can our

1466
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:20,679
Speaker 1: listeners follow your work?

1467
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:25,679
Speaker 3: Well? You can often find me doing a pirouet inside

1468
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:30,080
Speaker 3: of a Krispy Kreme or any donut location. But when

1469
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 3: I am not eating sugar I'm not supposed to have.

1470
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 3: You can find me on social media. My handout is

1471
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 3: doctor John Paul everywhere except for Twitter. I am no

1472
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:43,720
Speaker 3: longer on Twitter, good for you, but you can find

1473
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,400
Speaker 3: me in Blue Sky. I don't know how much longer

1474
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 3: I'll be on Instagram or Facebook, but you can also

1475
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:51,720
Speaker 3: find me there and also on threads. But yeah, and

1476
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,840
Speaker 3: then visit my website ww dot doctor Johnpaul dot com

1477
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 3: and you can probably catch me in a bookstore near you. Yeah,

1478
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 3: if you're in the LA area, you'd like to come

1479
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,680
Speaker 3: to my book launch. All the information for that is

1480
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:04,520
Speaker 3: on my website.

1481
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 2: So yay, we'll be there. We're in the LA area.

1482
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:09,679
Speaker 3: Yes, come down, come down.

1483
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 2: Yes, please pre order John's book. Thank you again for

1484
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,719
Speaker 2: joining us. You can follow us mostly on Instagram these days.

1485
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:24,560
Speaker 2: At Bechdel Cast, you can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon,

1486
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:28,639
Speaker 2: where we cover two movies a month. Plus you get

1487
01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 2: access to the entire back catalog. There's fun, amazing, brilliant

1488
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:40,080
Speaker 2: genius themes such as Rodent Timber coming up this March.

1489
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 1: There's a stunning number of movies about rodents. Would you

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01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 1: like to hear an intersectional feminist discussion of them? If not,

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01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: too bad, you have to drive.

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01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:51,080
Speaker 2: You have to subscribe anyway.

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01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 1: Intersectional feminist discussion of ratitude incoming. Link in description's get

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01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 1: our merch at teapublic dot com. Slash the Bechdel Cast

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01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:07,480
Speaker 1: and with that another wonderful episode of The Bechtel Cast concludes.

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Speaker 2: Wow, see you next time.

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01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 3: Bye Bye, bye bye.

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01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

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Speaker 2: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

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01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:25,240
Speaker 2: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

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01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:29,679
Speaker 2: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Volskrosenski. Our logo in merch

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01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,800
Speaker 2: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

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01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:37,280
Speaker 2: Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

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01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 2: linktree slash Bechdel Cast