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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back following up our

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Speaker 1: last episode about the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: You know, Robert, this is something that I have wanted

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Speaker 1: to do an episode about for a long time. I

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Speaker 1: think it was mainly just because I love those letters

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Speaker 1: of Plenties and I wanted to read them and talk

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Speaker 1: about them. But there was a reason that we just

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Speaker 1: recently decided, Okay, it's time to do Vesuvius, And it

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Speaker 1: was because of a new study I read about that

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Speaker 1: set the lava of my heart flowing anew. And so

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Speaker 1: here we are because a lot of the really great

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Speaker 1: and shocking research about Vesuvius is like basically, what happened

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Speaker 1: to people's bodies when when the volcano erupted? Oh absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mentioned in the first episode, how I how much,

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Speaker 1: how clearly I remember looking through at only Geographic when

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Speaker 1: I was a child and and seeing these images of

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Speaker 1: the remains of uh In Pompeii and Herculaneum uh one

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Speaker 1: in particular, I remember, was a photograph of this one

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Speaker 1: bit of human remains that are referred to as ring

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Speaker 1: Lady because it is the skeleton and you see, uh,

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Speaker 1: these these rings there, and it's just like the skeleton

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Speaker 1: emerging from the you know, half half revealed in the

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Speaker 1: in the ash and soil, and it was just very haunting.

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Speaker 1: It's this idea of this place just buried and frozen

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Speaker 1: in time. I'm looking at this image. Does she have

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Speaker 1: rings on her fingers but also bigger rings down around

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Speaker 1: her like her elbow? Yes, I believe so. And I

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Speaker 1: think another photo included in our notes is rather small,

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Speaker 1: but I believe they are serpents too, their like, you know,

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Speaker 1: precious metal serpents. Uh. So you know that all these

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Speaker 1: little details like that, you know, always were just very

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Speaker 1: intriguing me. Such a dramatic moment in history, and then

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Speaker 1: to have so much of it preserved, Yeah, in some

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Speaker 1: cases preserved in a shockingly pristine way, but in other

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Speaker 1: cases transformed in an even more shocking way. So this

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Speaker 1: new study that that I was reading about was by

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Speaker 1: pure Paolo Petrona, published in the New England Journal of

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Speaker 1: Medicine just this month or just last month in January. Actually,

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Speaker 1: so Patroni was the lead author, but there were a

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Speaker 1: bunch of authors named on it. And I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to say the name of the study because that might

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Speaker 1: spoil a little bit about what happened. But basically, there

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Speaker 1: have been a lot of modern analyzes trying to understand

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened to the bodies of the victims of

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Speaker 1: Vesuvius in settlements like Pompeii and Herculaneum. It's like some

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Speaker 1: of them the ones people were most familiar with, or

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Speaker 1: when essentially the like the the the ashes that formed

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Speaker 1: around body have been used as a kind of mold,

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Speaker 1: you know, pour a substance down in there, let it uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, harden, and then when you bring it back out,

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Speaker 1: you have this this picture of these these humans from

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Speaker 1: any nine see at the basically the moment of death. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And in a lot of cases, these people died under

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Speaker 1: circumstances so extreme that it's difficult to imagine exactly how

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Speaker 1: it would play out on our soft, fluid filled bodies. Um.

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Speaker 1: This particular study concerns one such case, which got a

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Speaker 1: good right up in the New York Times by Jennifer Pinkowski.

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Speaker 1: So this study looked at one specific body exhumed from

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Speaker 1: the buried ruins of Herculaneum, and this was a man

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Speaker 1: who was believed to have been in his mid twenties,

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Speaker 1: and he was found lying on a wooden bed in

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Speaker 1: the colleg Gum august Stallium, which was a building on

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Speaker 1: the main street of the town away from the waterfront.

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Speaker 1: And the man's ash entombed remains were discovered sometime in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, but more recently researchers were able to

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Speaker 1: extract a strange object from inside the dead man's head.

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Speaker 1: And it is a warped, black, shiny fragment of glassy material.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Well, I mean, if if one worked

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Speaker 1: it to guess, you might think, well, this must be

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Speaker 1: a piece of you know, volcanic shrapnel, something that you know,

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Speaker 1: flying through the air and become it gets embedded in

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Speaker 1: the skull, right sure. And when I was looking at

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Speaker 1: images of the fragment, I was thinking exactly along those lines,

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Speaker 1: because it reminded me a bit of the appearance of

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Speaker 1: tech tits, which are these gravel sized pieces of natural

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Speaker 1: glass that are formed from terrestrial material, including things like sand,

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Speaker 1: which get rapidly superheated to the melting point during meteorite impacts. So,

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Speaker 1: like you know, a meteor hits the surface, it kicks

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Speaker 1: up a lot of stuff is some of it quickly

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Speaker 1: melts and turns into glass. And natural impact glass is amazing.

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Speaker 1: I think we talked about it a bit in our

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Speaker 1: episode about the Kabba Um but but yeah, just to

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Speaker 1: imagine that, like an object falling from space hits the

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Speaker 1: surface of the Earth, throws up this big explosion of debris,

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Speaker 1: and some of that debris gets so hot from the

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Speaker 1: impact it turns into a shower of glass. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: the images of this object extract it from the man's

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Speaker 1: head look kind of like tech tits or kind of

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Speaker 1: like obsidian. But it also has this crazy complicated shape

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Speaker 1: and texture with these sharp hooks and crags and little

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Speaker 1: rounded divots as if created by frozen bubbles. And so anyway,

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Speaker 1: the authors of this study believe the evidence tells us

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Speaker 1: what the glassy material is. It's vitrified brain tissue, human

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Speaker 1: brain turned into glass. Hence the name of the study.

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Speaker 1: Heat induced brain vitrification from the vesuvious eruption in CE

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Speaker 1: seventy nine uh and is summarized in Pinkowski's article. According

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Speaker 1: to pure Paolo Patrona, who is a forensic anthropologist at

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Speaker 1: the University Federico, the second of Naples and the first

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Speaker 1: author on the study, again, the man's brain quote turned

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Speaker 1: to glass as a result of high heat from the

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Speaker 1: pyroclastic flow, and the victim's skull exploded. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: not actually the first case of research indicating that heat

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Speaker 1: from the volcanic eruption caused people's heads to explode. That

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Speaker 1: that's the thing that had been established by some previous

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Speaker 1: research right. In fact, one of the older episodes of

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, I think titled stuff that

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Speaker 1: will literally blow your mind. Well, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things we mentioned as being something that could actually make

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Speaker 1: your your head pop, would be becoming caught in say

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Speaker 1: a pyroclastic flow like this. Yeah, not not to be

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Speaker 1: too grim, but I mean I think of the comparison

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Speaker 1: to like when we've discussed our problems microwaving butter, where

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Speaker 1: there's like too much vapor formation, very rapidly rapid temperature

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Speaker 1: change like that. Yeah. So, to quote some text from

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Speaker 1: the study itself, and this was quoted secondarily from the

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Speaker 1: BBC quote the detection of glassy material from the victim's head,

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Speaker 1: of proteins expressed in the human brain, and if fatty

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Speaker 1: acids found in human hair indicates the thermally induced preservation

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Speaker 1: of vitrified human brain tissue. So first you'd have extreme

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Speaker 1: radiant heat which would pretty much instantly ignite fat in

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Speaker 1: the body and vapor rise fluid content and body tissues.

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Speaker 1: What kind of heat are we talking about? Well, analysis

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Speaker 1: of the charred wood nearby shows temperatures right around the

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Speaker 1: man probably reached to something like five hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: degrees celsius, which is over nine hundred and sixty degrees fahrenheit,

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Speaker 1: which I believe is hotter than the average surface temperature

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Speaker 1: on the planet Venus. Uh. So we're we're in extreme

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Speaker 1: territory here and uh And though I should say that

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Speaker 1: not all experts are convinced that the black glass is

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Speaker 1: truly the man's brain, because Pinkowski Uh in her article

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Speaker 1: for The Times, also quote somebody named Christina Kilgrove, who

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Speaker 1: is a bioarchaeologist at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill,

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Speaker 1: who's done firsthand research on Vesuvius and of the brain

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Speaker 1: to glass study. She says, quote, while their analysis is intriguing.

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Speaker 1: I do not think they've proved its human brain material,

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Speaker 1: nor nor have they ruled out other origins. The fatty

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Speaker 1: acids they identified are typical of vegetable or animal fat

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Speaker 1: or hair. So apparently, you know, once you start achieving

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Speaker 1: temperatures that potentially turn all kinds of organic material into glass,

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Speaker 1: you create some room for confusion. Maybe this is some

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Speaker 1: kind of other organic material that terrified, right, And and

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Speaker 1: then again this is like these are special circumstances to

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Speaker 1: create this these forensic remains, so it's difficult to compare

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Speaker 1: these to other cases. Now, that's not the only study

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Speaker 1: to come out recently about grim death scenes in these towns.

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Speaker 1: There was another one I was looking at that was

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Speaker 1: revising some earlier research about how some people had died

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Speaker 1: when their their remains were found within these stone houses

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Speaker 1: that were along the shores at Herculaneum that were sort

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Speaker 1: of known as the boat houses, to appear that people

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Speaker 1: died crowded inside. I think they had probably crowded into

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Speaker 1: the buildings for shelter. The buildings got closed up and

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Speaker 1: then got superheated, and the question was how did the

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Speaker 1: people die inside? And again it's a very grim scene.

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Speaker 1: But it looks like it's sort of turned. The buildings

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Speaker 1: provided some insulation from the flow of what was happening outside.

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Speaker 1: I'd but just gradually heated up and sort of worked

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Speaker 1: like an oven. It's kind of horrible to imagine. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, they they managed to avoid like instant cooking,

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Speaker 1: but instead got slightly more gradual cooking. Now his luck

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Speaker 1: would habit there was. There was another very recent bit

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Speaker 1: of news concerning the eruption of the Suvious. In January,

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Speaker 1: a number of news sources ran a story about the

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Speaker 1: possible discovery of Plenty the Elder's skull. What yes, um

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Speaker 1: in one of the better red ups that the one

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Speaker 1: I was looking at, in fact, was Katherine J. Woo's

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Speaker 1: This two thousand year old skull may belong to Plenty

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Speaker 1: of the Elder, published on smithsonian dot Com. Okay, what's

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Speaker 1: the case here? Alright, So this, this latest wrinkle in

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Speaker 1: the story comes via Italian researchers regarding one of some

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Speaker 1: seventy skeletons buried together in the aftermath of the eruption.

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Speaker 1: So this particular body that they're looking at, or really

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Speaker 1: particularly particularly we're dealing with a skull and job on uh.

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Speaker 1: They were found to have the body that it's associated with,

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Speaker 1: found to have heavy or heavily ornamented short sword in

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Speaker 1: its possession, and jewels, all of this becoming of a

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Speaker 1: person of means. Perhaps they speculate a high ranking naval officer. Now,

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Speaker 1: these remains were unearthed about a hundred years ago, and

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Speaker 1: engineer Gennero Mathrone theorized that this might be Plenty Uh,

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Speaker 1: but there was no way to really explore this any further. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just kind of circumstance, like, hey, we

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Speaker 1: found a this this body looks like it was somebody

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Speaker 1: of of means. The most famous person of means to

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Speaker 1: have we know died uh in the eruption of Vesuvius

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Speaker 1: is of course Plenty of the elder. So he's thought,

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Speaker 1: I think this might be him. So fast forward to

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Speaker 1: the twenty one century and the skull and the jaw

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Speaker 1: are now in the possession of Rome's Museum of the

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Speaker 1: History of the Art of Medicine, and using DNA sequencing technology,

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Speaker 1: researchers found that it was the skull of Quote, a

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Speaker 1: man who could trace some of his lineage to Italy

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Speaker 1: and who likely died in his forties or fifties. Now

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Speaker 1: Plenty would have been fifty six, so it's possible. The jaw,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, turned out to be from a

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Speaker 1: different individual of North African heritage. Okay, so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: even from the same head as to the rest of

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Speaker 1: the skull. So all of this is still very uncertain.

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Speaker 1: This is not a this is not They're not really

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Speaker 1: hitting it out of the park with this one. I

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Speaker 1: think you can fairly say, yes, it sounds possible that

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Speaker 1: this particular skull could have belonged to Plenty of the

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Speaker 1: elder But narrowing it down to just a you know,

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Speaker 1: a man who could trace some of his lineage to

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Speaker 1: Italy and who likely died in his forties or fifties,

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they're going to be other individuals in

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Speaker 1: that category that died with the eruption of Vesuvius. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting, but yeah, I'm I'm far from convinced.

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Speaker 1: So again to go over to the evidence, he would

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Speaker 1: have been in the right age bracket, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of people would have been. He would have been an

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Speaker 1: Italian man, but a lot of people there would have been,

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Speaker 1: and he had some he had some possessions indicating that

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Speaker 1: he was rich, like an ornamented sword and jewels. But again,

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Speaker 1: so the argument is like, well, this was the kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff that you might expect to find upon a

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Speaker 1: naval officer, to to find upon you know, somebody like

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Speaker 1: Plenty of the Elder. But that's about as far as

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Speaker 1: we can really go with it. Yeah, uh yeah. This

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Speaker 1: reminds me of other cases where we've talked about on

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Speaker 1: the show before where people kind of like, you're so

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Speaker 1: eager to take one fact or character or place from

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Speaker 1: a historical narrative and try to connect it with physical

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Speaker 1: artifacts on on often a very tenuous basis. Like I

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Speaker 1: remember in our episode about Lot's Wife where we discussed

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Speaker 1: the Dead Sea region and the tendency to take a

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Speaker 1: rock or salt formation, and people would say, that's a

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Speaker 1: Lot's wife, um, and like even so, even if you

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Speaker 1: were someone who believed the you know, destruction of Ottoman

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Speaker 1: Gomora story as as history, and believe the whole Lot's

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Speaker 1: of Wife thing, why would you expect an individual rock

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Speaker 1: you come across to actually be her? Right? Yeah, The

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Speaker 1: idea is of course endlessly attractive to be able to

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Speaker 1: have this physical proof of Plenty of the Elder and

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Speaker 1: individual who factors so heavily into this particular historical narrative.

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Speaker 1: But also it is just such an uh an important

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Speaker 1: figure in the you know, the historical writings. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think it speaks to a kind of human tendency of

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Speaker 1: like the characters we know from literary sources, whether it's

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Speaker 1: history or mythology. They're like friends and you know, the

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Speaker 1: same way that you walk through a crowd and you

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Speaker 1: yearn to recognize people. You know, you see somebody and like, oh,

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Speaker 1: is that Jeff, No it's not him, but your your

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Speaker 1: brain went there for a second, is that plenty Skull? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Wait what it might be somebody else, But still it

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Speaker 1: feels it feels special for a second there, Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: So I guess i'd say the evidence here not even

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Speaker 1: close to decisive, But if you want to imagine maybe

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Speaker 1: it's plenty Skull, I guess there's no harm in that,

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Speaker 1: right and now. And on the same hand, I don't

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Speaker 1: to criticize this more recent research because because clearly they

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Speaker 1: were they were following up on this much earlier speculation

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Speaker 1: where this goes like I think it's plenty and they said, well,

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Speaker 1: let's let's apply some science to this. Let's what we

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Speaker 1: can we can discern from the bone of the skull itself,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, this is what they figured out. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: can find out more that's either consistent or not consistent

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Speaker 1: with what somebody has already claimed. Yeah, and if they

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Speaker 1: had found that it was, you know, the skull of

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Speaker 1: a of a woman in her eighties, then it probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been Plenty, right, Or if the the the

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Speaker 1: entire like the skull and the job bone had both

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Speaker 1: turned out to have North African origin, that would have

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Speaker 1: also been a firmer. No, So instead we just have

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Speaker 1: a lingering maybe. All right, on that note, we're going

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Speaker 1: to take the possible skull of Plenty of the elder

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna place it up on the shelf, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to drink coffee from it. Yes, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but we will be

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Speaker 1: right back and we will continue to discuss the lessons

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Speaker 1: of Vesuvius. Alright, we're back. So there are all these

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Speaker 1: genres of things that archaeologists have uncovered at at the

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Speaker 1: settlements that were ruined by the eruption of Vesuvius, especially

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Speaker 1: like Pompeii and Herculaneum, and there's no way for us

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Speaker 1: to talk about all of the discoveries. A lot of

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Speaker 1: them are just things about, like, you know, everyday Roman life,

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Speaker 1: you know, the way the houses are preserved, things about

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Speaker 1: how the kitchens would have run, and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: because you have all the stuff still in there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the things about the past that and then

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Speaker 1: we've touched on this plenty of times before, is you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the everyday stuff that is not always preserved in

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Speaker 1: say the history books or and you know, religious art

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Speaker 1: or what have you. And and that's often the most

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Speaker 1: interesting thing, like how did the common people live? How

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Speaker 1: what did people eat? What did they drink? Well, how

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Speaker 1: healthy were they? But like the common information like that

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Speaker 1: is not the kind of stuff that is usually thought

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Speaker 1: notable to be recorded by historians of the time because

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Speaker 1: common life is not interesting to them at least because

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Speaker 1: it's common, might be interesting to us for which it

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Speaker 1: is unusual and unknown. Instead, the things that historians are

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Speaker 1: likely to record are the unusual events, you know, the

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Speaker 1: wars and everything like that. Yeah, yeah, the the the

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Speaker 1: the dramatic moments, etcetera. So or and indeed, with the

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Speaker 1: with Vesuvius and its eruption, like you know, that's we

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Speaker 1: have this wonderful account that survived and provides all these

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Speaker 1: these details about the this, the unnatural horror that fall,

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Speaker 1: the falls, the cities that exist in the area surrounding

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Speaker 1: the Volcanic mountain. But you know, Plenty is not taking

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Speaker 1: a lot of time to talk about what he ate

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Speaker 1: for breakfast that morning, right, so I think he does

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Speaker 1: say his uncle had a light luncheon. You don't say

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Speaker 1: what it was. But one of the amazing genres of

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Speaker 1: things that archaeologists have uncovered at Pompeii that is definitely

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Speaker 1: worth looking up if you haven't seen it, is this

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Speaker 1: some of the surviving original artwork, which in some cases

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Speaker 1: is preserved in a strikingly vivid and colorful way. Oh yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are definitely worth looking up. And some of them

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Speaker 1: are you know, it's it's one of these things where

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Speaker 1: it makes you really think about trying and put yourself

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Speaker 1: in the shoes of the of these people who lived

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Speaker 1: in and so there are things that make perfect sense, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course you'd want to live in a uh in

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Speaker 1: a in a space that is uh you know, has

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Speaker 1: rich decoration. But then you ask, well, why this painting,

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Speaker 1: why this particular fresco et cetera. Well, I'm thinking if

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Speaker 1: it happened to my house and future archaeologists were digging

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Speaker 1: it up, they'd be like, what does it mean that

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Speaker 1: he had a poster for the film Attack of the

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Speaker 1: Crab Monsters on his wall. Clearly he thought it was

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Speaker 1: a great film, or he he realized that giant psychic

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Speaker 1: crabs were holy creatures and were to be venerated in

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Speaker 1: the home as a kind of a household god. They

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Speaker 1: might think this is a religious artifact. But so one

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Speaker 1: of the fresco is that I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: was something I was just reading about from a site

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Speaker 1: called Reggio five Reggio v. Uh assume that means five

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Speaker 1: and not just the letter V, which is still under excavation.

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Speaker 1: And this is a well preserved fresco that appears to

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Speaker 1: have been in the basement of a large building, underneath

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Speaker 1: the stairwell. I don't know if that contributed to how

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Speaker 1: well it was preserved. It might have, might have, But

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Speaker 1: it depicts the end of a fight between two gladiators

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Speaker 1: of fighter types that we can actually identify based on

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Speaker 1: their weapons in their armor in the painting. So one

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Speaker 1: is of a type known as the Murmillo, and the

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Speaker 1: other is a of a type known as the three

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Speaker 1: X or the Thracian. So I was looking these up

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Speaker 1: in a book called Gladiators at Pompeii by Luciana Jacobelli

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Speaker 1: from two thousand three, and she writes of the mrmalo

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Speaker 1: that had so the name of the mrmalo type fighter

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Speaker 1: originally comes from a marine fish, the murma, which had

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Speaker 1: an image of this fish was drawn on this type

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Speaker 1: of fighter's helmet. So this fighter would have a very

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Speaker 1: scary looking helmet actually. So it's got a visor that

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Speaker 1: closed is over the face, and it's got kind of

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Speaker 1: a chain pattern, like chain link pattern across the visor um.

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Speaker 1: And then of course it depicts this fish. And then

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Speaker 1: the gladiator to fight bare chested or sometimes we're something

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Speaker 1: known as the subla gaculum uh. And then he'd have

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Speaker 1: his right arm protected by something called a manica, which

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Speaker 1: I've seen depicted as like a kind of a sleeve

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Speaker 1: of padding laced up around the right arm, which was

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Speaker 1: the sword arm. So you'd hold your short sword called

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Speaker 1: a gladius in the right arm with that laced up

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Speaker 1: with this padding. And then in the other hand you

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Speaker 1: would have a rectangular shield called a screwed them that's

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Speaker 1: about one meter high. And as we've discussed in the

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Speaker 1: past talking about gladiators on the show Roaming Gladiatorial Combat.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not unfair to compare it to the

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Speaker 1: film adaptation of The Running Man. You know, it's there's

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Speaker 1: theatrics here, there's mythic symbology involved here. Uh so it's

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Speaker 1: a it's it's not merely there's there's a mix of

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Speaker 1: a function but also just mythic form and entertainment. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and there's another element of it that comes in, which

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Speaker 1: is just like ethnic representations, like the Romans would have

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Speaker 1: some fighter types that were supposed to represent sort of

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Speaker 1: like exotic foreign types of warriors who the fighters might

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Speaker 1: not necessarily actually be from those regions. But say the

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Speaker 1: other fighter in this not the Mrmala, but the Thracian,

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Speaker 1: you know, so that's like a type of person. And

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Speaker 1: so this is supposed to be modeled after the idea

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Speaker 1: of a Thracian warrior. I'm well, I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: it would actually in any accurate way represent what the

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Speaker 1: Thracians were Like. Yeah, I mean this is actually something

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Speaker 1: you see reflected even in some I think contemporary examples,

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Speaker 1: but definitely in twentieth century examples of professional wrestling, yes,

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Speaker 1: where various. And this is something you would see in

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Speaker 1: different parts in pretty much everywhere that pro wrestling was

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Speaker 1: slash is popular. So talking about Mexico, Japan, the United States, uh,

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Speaker 1: those three anyway, you would often see depictions of other

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Speaker 1: nationalities UH in different enemy roles. And of course you

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Speaker 1: see all manner of you know, xenophobia and UH and

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Speaker 1: racial stereotypes, the cultural stereotypes embodied in those forms. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and you know a funny thing that I was reading

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Speaker 1: about with the Roman gladiators that like sometimes gladiator types

390
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Speaker 1: would go out of style as as certain ethnic groups

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Speaker 1: were more comprehensively incorporated into the empire. So like earlier

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Speaker 1: on you would have a type of fighter that was

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Speaker 1: basically the gallic fighter, you know, like this is our

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Speaker 1: this is our parody of the UH, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what you want to call it, you know, their parody

396
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Speaker 1: or their understanding of like the the ethnic Gaul as

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Speaker 1: a warrior as Gaul. Then goal today modern like France

398
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Speaker 1: basically became a more fully incorporated part of the Roman Empire.

399
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Speaker 1: That type of fighter fell out of fashion and was

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Speaker 1: replaced by representations of ethnic groups that were still more

401
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 1: considered outsiders or there's Yeah, it's a it's an interesting

402
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: way to think about the you know, that space where

403
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Speaker 1: where sport and war meet, and and they meet more

404
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: directly in gladiatorial combat obviously, but you see this in

405
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Speaker 1: other types of sporting entertainment out there, even like full

406
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Speaker 1: on team sports. Uh. You know, there's this idea that uh,

407
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Speaker 1: instead of two nations going to war, they go to game. Uh.

408
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: And that you know, that's ultimately part of the spirit

409
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Speaker 1: of even the Olympics, which are again often uh you know,

410
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Speaker 1: held up as an example of nations coming together in

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Speaker 1: peace and uh. And I think certainly certainly fulfills that

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Speaker 1: that need for the international community. And yet at the

413
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Speaker 1: same time, it is about my country and your country

414
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Speaker 1: going head to head and we're going to see which

415
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Speaker 1: one has the has the right stuff to to emerge

416
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Speaker 1: victorious at the end. Yeah. But at least in the

417
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Speaker 1: case of the Olympics, it's like people actually from the

418
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Speaker 1: original countries coming together to compete. It would be a

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00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 1: different thing if you were just like wherever somebody actually

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00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: came from, you had them depicting a person from a

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Speaker 1: certain country, and then in that you would see more

422
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: of a parallel in say twentieth century American professional wrestling. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So jacob Elli writes about this other type, that the

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00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 1: second type in the Fresco, the Thracian quote. The Thracians

425
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Speaker 1: armor included a small, strongly convex squarish shield known as

426
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: a parmula a manica. Again this is an arm bands

427
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: like this like padding laced up around the sword arm

428
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: uh and two high leggings, often decorated up to the knee.

429
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: The weapon most typical of this gladiator was a short sword,

430
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: either curved or angled, called a ska, so like you

431
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: have a little kind of curved scimitar thing. And she

432
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: writes that even the helmet was unusual, usually be decorated

433
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: with this tall decorated crest. So in the Fresco, it's

434
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,719
Speaker 1: a battle scene, and it's at the end of the battle,

435
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: and the Mermalo fighter stands victorious, holding his sword in

436
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: his right hand and holding his shield high in his left,

437
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: and the Thracian is bent over badly wounded, bleeding from

438
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: wounds on his wrist, in his chest. He's disarmed, his

439
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 1: shield is lying on the ground. Next to him, and

440
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: he's making a sign with his left hand, and it's

441
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: not clear exactly what that is, but some historians and

442
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: archaeologists think that he's possibly appealing to the audience for

443
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: mercy with this sign, and we don't know if the

444
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: fight would have ended with mercy or execution. That's interesting

445
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: because then it then also not not only you're wondering

446
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: about what he's depicted in the art, but then why

447
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: is it depicted, Like why is this image celebrated? Are

448
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: we celebrating the presumably the valiant warrior that has fallen

449
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: and is is appealing for for mercy, like saying, Hey,

450
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: I put up a good fight, didn't you? And and

451
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: maybe the people looking at the art can be like, yeah,

452
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: even if you lose, if you put up a good fight,

453
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: there's there's grace and honor in that. Or is it

454
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: about the other guy, like yeah, defeat the other of

455
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: combating at all costs, and maybe they'll beg for mercy,

456
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: but you still want right is the purpose us of

457
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: the artwork to be like look at this thration loser? Uh? Yeah?

458
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: And according it gets even more interesting because, according to

459
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: Massimo Osana, director general of Pompei's Archaeological Park. This building

460
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: was probably both a tavern and a brothel that was

461
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: frequented by local gladiators. So Reggio five is very near

462
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: to another side that's believed to have been a barracks

463
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: for the fighters, So the gladiators would have had their

464
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: barracks nearby. They would go for I guess recreation at

465
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: this tavern and brothel. And inside the tavern and brothel

466
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: where the gladiators go, there are scenes on the walls

467
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: of gladiators killing each other, And it's like, is that

468
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: what they would have wanted to see? Is that what

469
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: they just had to put up with? Yeah? Like who

470
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: who decorated this space? I don't. It's so interesting trying

471
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: to understand what would motivate people to to decorate buildings

472
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: in certain ways in the ancient world. You like, you

473
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: can't again the same thing we were talking about, like, like,

474
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: how would a future civilization understand the spirit with which

475
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: I hang up a Poe stir for a trashy nineteen

476
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: fifties sci fi movie, Like do they like do they

477
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: have the level of complexity and imagining? My mind that says, okay,

478
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 1: this had something to do with like love of horror movies,

479
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,239
Speaker 1: but also a sense of irony and you know, like

480
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: or would they just have to assume I guess this

481
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: is just like a religious artifact or something. Yeah, yeah,

482
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: there's some of there's Yeah, there's so many generalities to

483
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: potentially apply to that situation. And then and then it's

484
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: going to get you know, very specific about the individual

485
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: whose house it is. Of course, in this case, it

486
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: is a you know, again more of a less a

487
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: public space for the gladiators that are assembled there. But

488
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: then you have to again question who decided that this

489
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: is what should be on the wall, and then what

490
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: is the intended meaning of that? Like what are they

491
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: trying to enforce or celebrate? Right? Is it valiant? Is

492
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: it funny? Is it honoring them? Is it scaring them?

493
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: Like what if they put that that image up at

494
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: work here, like would we take away from that? Or

495
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I don't know. Are they both podcasters?

496
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: So I don't I don't know what's happening. So again,

497
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: we're not gonna be able to get into anywhere close

498
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: to all the studies that discuss what daily life was

499
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: like in Pompeii or Herculaneum prior to the eruption of

500
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: Vesuvius and seventy nine CE. But but I do want

501
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: to discuss just a few quick ones, and these are

502
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: all relatively recent that shed some interesting light on everything.

503
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: So the first one I want to talk about is

504
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: a two thousand seventeen University of Southern Denmark study that

505
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: looked at the drinking water situation for the Romans of

506
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: Pompeii and they found that while yes, lead pipes which

507
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: they used would sometimes poison the water, of the issue

508
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: here is they would quickly calcify, so you would only

509
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: be dealing with high toxicity levels after they've been initially

510
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: installed or when you've had to make some repairs. H So,

511
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: so the lad would from time to time poison you,

512
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: but that the toxic chemical element antimony would have been

513
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: more of a factor it was with the lead, and

514
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: it was a more It was also more common in

515
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: the groundwater, as is typical of areas of volcanic activity.

516
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: So this would have, according to the researchers quote, lead

517
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: to daily problems with vomiting, diarrhea, and liver and kidney

518
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: dan So um, I mean, it's yeah, it's it's it's

519
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: it's terrific to imagine. But but but it does shed

520
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: a little a little more light, like, what does it

521
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: what does it mean to have amazing and really advanced

522
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: plumbing in uh in seventy nine CE? While it probably

523
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 1: meant being poisoned part of the time, especially in this area, Well,

524
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: it makes me think. So Pompei is basically a rich town.

525
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 1: It's kind of a resort region. A lot of successful

526
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: elites lived there poisoning themselves with diarrhea pipes. And it

527
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: reminds me of the raw water trend from a couple

528
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: of years. I remember that a lot of like rich

529
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: tech world kind of people decided they were going to

530
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: pay fifteen dollars a gallon for untreated drinking water full

531
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: of giardia. I haven't looked it up. Is that like,

532
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: is that still a thing or did that go away?

533
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: I hope it went away, but but I don't know.

534
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: We'll have to say, maybe we'll do an episode on that.

535
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll get as a sponsor. Who knows. Um, Now,

536
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: a couple of other study. Both of these other studies,

537
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about our University of Cincinnati studies. UM, Okay,

538
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: there's a teams there that have have been working uh

539
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: in POMPEII, and both of them have really concerned, like

540
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: refuse what we can learn, not so much from the

541
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: the artistry that has survived or the human remains that

542
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: we can look at, but digging around in the trash,

543
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: looking in the sewer pipes and trying to solve the

544
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: riddle of you know what they ate, what they how

545
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: they lived and uh and you know how they disposed

546
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: of their trash. So there's two thousand and twelve University

547
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: of Cincinnati study looked at a question that has come

548
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: up in archaeology concerning trash uh in POMPEII. Why was

549
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: there so much garbage littered among the tombs? So one

550
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: theory was that we saw garbage dumb in tombs and

551
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: a grave sites that had been damaged by previous earthquakes

552
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: in the vicinity and therefore they had been abandoned. And

553
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: since this was an abandoned you know, grave area that

554
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: wasn't used anymore, people decided, what would just dump our

555
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: trash here? Right? Yester year's graveyard is today's dump. Yeah,

556
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: And we see shades of this in today's society. Right.

557
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: You have you have, say a house that's under repair

558
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: or it's you know, it's there's something there's nobody's living there.

559
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: One person dumped some garbage there, and then suddenly other

560
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: people were dumping old couches and what have you. And

561
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: there may be signs to try and prevent people from

562
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: doing it. But now this is a place where garbage accumulates. Yeah,

563
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: it's the RLO go three principle. You know, the Thanksgiving

564
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: day masaker. Okay, is this from Alice's restaurant? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

565
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: Or they find where you find garbage somewhere you figure

566
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: that's where you put the other garbage on top. That's

567
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: that's that's part of the human experience. However, in this

568
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: particular study, Allison Emerson argued that the Romans of the

569
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: time they simply had a more casual approach to trash.

570
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: So she points out that there's no evidence for any

571
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: kind of a centrally managed system for garbage disposal, and

572
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: so life was probably just lived in close proximity to

573
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: the refuse that created, especially in the alleys, the streets, roads, cemeteries,

574
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: and tombs as well. Plus one thing that she drives

575
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: home is that tombs at the time, like these were

576
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: places you didn't want your tomb just today we think of, oh,

577
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: where do I want to be buried? Where do want

578
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: my remains to go? I wanted to be a nice,

579
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: quiet place that occasionally be visited by children or families,

580
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: but for the most part is just left to the

581
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: squirrels and the birds. Uh So, Emmerson argues that this

582
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: was not the Roman way you wanted to be remembered.

583
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: Uh So, your tomb needed to be seen. Your tomb

584
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: needed to be in a place that was going to

585
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: be highly trafficked. Uh And so these tombs would have

586
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: been high traffic spaces, which meant people would probably be

587
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: littering everywhere, that they would be leaving graffiti, etcetera. And

588
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: that was I mean, that was just part of it.

589
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: Like this is, you want to be seen, you want

590
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: to be remembered, you need to be in a living space.

591
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: Living space means graffiti and garbage. Oh yeah, this is

592
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: common in the ancient world. It makes me think of

593
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: the Chattelhoya situation, where people would literally bury the remains

594
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: of their ancestors in the floor of the house where

595
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: they lived. Yeah, you want to be near the living

596
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: That's that's part of the whole equation here. And they

597
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: would often keep body parts of that, like maybe keep

598
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: their head covered in plaster just on the shelf. Now,

599
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: another University of Cincinnati study came from and this one

600
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: looked specifically at the drains, cisterns, and the trains of

601
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: Pompeii to learn what people ate. And it's interesting we've

602
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: we've talked about how yes, there were definitely some very wealthy,

603
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: uh members of Roman society in the area. This was

604
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: a very rich part of the Roman Empire. At the

605
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: same time, there were, of course commoners, there were people

606
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: lower down all on the socioeconomic spectrum. And so in

607
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: looking at the the these remains, these vestiges of of

608
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: the of these diets you were, they were able to

609
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: find these clear socio economic divisions. So for instance, they

610
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: looked at one area and they found grains, or they

611
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: found the remnants of grains, fruits, nuts, olives, lintels, local

612
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: fish and chicken eggs, as well as minimal cuts of

613
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: more expensive meat and salted fish that had been imported

614
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: from Spain. And so this would have been you know, um,

615
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: this would have been the the the food of of

616
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: people lower down on the socioeconomic spectrum, the workers throughout

617
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: the regular people, yeah, eating you know, the staples, but

618
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: then occasionally having something a little more fancy. But then,

619
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: of course there were the richer areas. UH. And here

620
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: they found more imports from outside Italy, such as various shellfish,

621
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: sea urchins, and I love this detail, even delicacies that

622
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: included the butchered leg joint of a giraffe. And UH

623
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: Professor Steven Ellis points out that the bone quote represents

624
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: the height of exotic food and is underscored by the

625
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: fact that this is thought to be the only giraffe

626
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: bone ever recorded from an archaeological excavation in Roman Italy. So,

627
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: as far as we know, the only bone from a

628
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: giraffe ever found in Italy at the time, and it's

629
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: in it's underneath the restaurant. Now, some of you might

630
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: be wondering, Well, you might think to yourself, well, it

631
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't even occur to me to eat a giraffe, which

632
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: is a giraffe taste like? Well, there's a wonderful article

633
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: you should read on this. This was published in New

634
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: York Magazine in februaryeen titled what does Giraffe Meat Taste Like?

635
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: By Adam Martin and basically, UH, Martin says that, you know,

636
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: descriptions are gonna vary, but on one hand, you'll see

637
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: it described as a very tender meat that is served

638
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: extra rare and it kind of melts in the mouth.

639
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: Health Other accounts have said that it's an intensely flavored,

640
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: lean meat like that of a tender horse, so like

641
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: horse meat, except not as tough. And another source said

642
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: that what that giraffe meat was tough and chewy but

643
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: also flavorful. Now I would have guessed like tough and gamey. Yeah,

644
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's a wild animal. Yeah, this is not

645
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: like the kind of the breeds of cattle that are

646
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: bred for meat. Yeah. Yeah, I felt the same. And

647
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: of course a big part of this too is like

648
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 1: it's exotic, right, people, And this is the reason why

649
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: rich Romans would have potentially ordered this in a menu.

650
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: It's like, what do you have? What are your specials today? Well,

651
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: we have the leg of a giraffe, you know, exciting.

652
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: I've never had that before. I will try it and

653
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: then I'll have some cost on how I respond to

654
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: the taste exactly. Now, Martin does our drive home though

655
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 1: that okay, Yes, there are examples of modern giraffe meat

656
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: that have been obtained legally, uh, certain like from calling

657
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: efforts in certain places. But if you but don't use

658
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: this as license to go and try and obtain giraffe

659
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: meat because it's also giraffe meed is gonna bring with

660
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: it a high risk of being harvested unethically. So ultimately

661
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: it's not worth it because it's not it doesn't sound

662
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 1: like it's gonna taste great, and you don't want to

663
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: go around trying to order yourself up a leg of

664
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 1: giraffe for the barbecue. Uh, if you're gonna have to

665
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: contend with the fact that it might be obtained unethically.

666
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: I wonder how many pounds of meat you get out

667
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: of side of giraffe. I mean, it's it's quite a bit.

668
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: This Uh, this article by Martin goes into that a bit.

669
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: How sometimes they're poaching. There's there you'll see poaching of

670
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: giraffes because if you land a giraffe, it's worth like

671
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: it's as much meat as you would get from say,

672
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: sell several say in Paula or gazelles or something. Um.

673
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: That being said, it's going to be probably tough and weird. Yeah,

674
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: Now if you were one of those people thinking like

675
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: it would never occur to you to eat a giraffe.

676
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: I was thinking like that, this, this really indicates that

677
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: you do not have a Roman elitement tality. Because we've

678
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: discussed on the show several times. Uh, the Romans ate everything,

679
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, look at this interesting exotic animal.

680
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: Get the butcher knife. Uh. They were they were really like,

681
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: let's try to eat that culture. Uh. And apparently another

682
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: thing I was reading about is that they loved the

683
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: rare delicacy of flamingo tongue. I was reading about this

684
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: in Food of the Ancient World by Joan p Alcock,

685
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: where she writes, quote, flamingo's tongue was a great delicacy.

686
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: Emperor Vitellius in a d. Sixty nine presented the goddess

687
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: Minerva with a dish containing peacock brains, pike livers, pheasant brains,

688
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: and flamingo tongues, which he afterward ate, Which is great.

689
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: You know, you got to present it to Minerva and

690
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: then you know, chow down yourself because Minerva is not

691
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: going to eat it. Now. I feel I love two

692
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: minds on all of this, because on one hand, yes,

693
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: they're all these wonderfully really exotic sounding things with the

694
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: Romans eight. And yet if you had to decipher, like

695
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: which which menu of possibilities is more exotic and uh,

696
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: you know, it depends on on wider you know, geographic sourcing.

697
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: Is it this restaurant in Pompeii where the giraffe leg

698
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: was was served? Is it even the the available menu,

699
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: say it even any given time in Rome itself? Or

700
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: is it what you might get at the large whole

701
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: foods or armies or what's the restaurant with the colossal

702
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: menu cheesecake factory? You know, like like if you like

703
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: trace the origins of all those things and see it

704
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: as see cheesecake Factory as a restaurant of empire, is

705
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: it ultimately a larger empire by far than that of

706
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: the the even like the richest table setting in the

707
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: Roman Empire? Well, I mean you clearly drive home that

708
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: like some of our judgments about these kinds of things

709
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: are completely arbitrary, you know, about like what is an

710
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: exotic extravagant food and what is just normal food? And

711
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 1: the Roman poet Marshall was actually he lamented the idea

712
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: of eating flamingo tongues. I don't know why exactly. It's

713
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: it's what's so bad about flamingo tongues compared to the

714
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 1: other stuff. But he was generally attacking, you know, like, uh,

715
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: certain Roman elites as decadent, you know, decadent epicureans or whatever.

716
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: But there's this couplet that Marshall wrote that I found

717
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: translated in a book called The Flamingo Smile by Stephen

718
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: Jay Gould, And so Marshall wrote, my red wing gives

719
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: me my name, but epicures regard my tongue is tasty,

720
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: but what if my tongue could sing? Well? I think

721
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: it sounds like what he's getting at is is a

722
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: basic truth. The flamingo is a beautiful animal that we

723
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: love to look at. It is it is different from

724
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: other varieties of bird that we might behold. And and

725
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: that's why generally you go to a zoo, what's the

726
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 1: first thing you see? Flamingos there? Like this the standard

727
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: greeters at. It's so many different zoological parks. I mean,

728
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: flamingos are weird. They are beautiful, like I the way

729
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: they eat with their heads upside down, you know. In

730
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: this book, Gould goes on to write about the about

731
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 1: how the flamingos tongue has special texture and taste because

732
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: of its unique evolutionary function that unlike most birds, flamingos

733
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: are actually filter feeders. They're more like billen whales, and

734
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 1: they dip their heads into the water turned down too,

735
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: and they open up their mouths and they've got these little, uh,

736
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: these hair like things called lamlay. And then the tongue here,

737
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: the part that the emperor would eat. It serves as

738
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: a kind of pump to like rapidly suck water in

739
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: and out of the mouth through the filters. And this

740
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: pulls in all the you know, weird little bits and

741
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: life forms that the flamingos ultimately survived based on. But

742
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: that it's this strange morphology that apparently made it so

743
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: delicious to uh, to Roman epicures like Vitelius. Well, you

744
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: know it's I guess it's possible it had a special

745
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: taste or special texture, uh that that made people want

746
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: to eat it. But I you at the impression, it's

747
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: mostly like here is a unique animal. Uh, serve it

748
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: to me. Well, I just want to say, as an addendum,

749
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: Vitelius did not last long. He he was only emperor

750
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: for less than a year. Uh. He lost a power

751
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: struggle to Vespasian, was dragged out of hiding by a

752
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: mob of his enemies and beheaded in the streets of Rome.

753
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: And uh, I attached a picture for you to look at.

754
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen this artwork, but it's

755
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: called Vitelius dragged through the streets of Rome by the

756
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: Populace by George Rosia Gross. He looks like he's having

757
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: a bad day. Yeah, yeah, that is a yeah, that's that.

758
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: That is a bad day for sure. But maybe he

759
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: should have served giraffe to Minerva instead and his luck

760
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: could have changed. Well, I think even today it would

761
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: probably be just political death for most politicians to to

762
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: suddenly publicly eat the tongue of a of a flamingo,

763
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: or or eat a big chunk of giraffes at the

764
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,959
Speaker 1: Iowa State Fair eating fried flamingo tongue on a stick. Yeah,

765
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, okay, and now I'm second guessing myself.

766
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: But all right, on that lovely note, we will take

767
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: one more break, but when we come back, we will

768
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: return more specifically two volcanoes. Alright, we're back, So we

769
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. How the slopes of Vesuvius, you know, once

770
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: more are home to vineyards and and uh in human populations.

771
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: The area around Vesuvius is highly urbanized today, but authorities

772
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: have established a red zone a Zona Rosa, to be

773
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: evacuated if signs indicate that an eruption is likely Sona rosa.

774
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: That sounds so nice, yeah, I mean, or or it

775
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: sounds like like a horror movie, doesn't it like Origento

776
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: kind of cold, be a jello like Lazona Rosa. Yeah. Now,

777
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: the general consensus is that if the signs were to

778
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: prevent themselves, we'd have about two weeks notice on an eruption.

779
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: But there are a lot has been written about, like

780
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: the the actual preparedness in place for an event like this.

781
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: So Lee Marshall wrote about this topic in a September

782
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: seen article for The Telegraph, pointing out that again at

783
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: the time, seven hundred thousand people lived in this red

784
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: zone of Vesuvius, and while there there was a finalized

785
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: evacuation plan and it was still in the process of

786
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: coming online in six uh. But according to to one

787
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: Francisco Emilio Barelli Regional Council for the Green Party, quoted

788
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: in a November two thousand nineteen euronews dot com article

789
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: exercises regarding evacuation, we're no longer being carried out. And

790
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: in that article, Filipo Pultronieri pointed out that other urban

791
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: areas near volcanic areas are also highlighted for insufficient planning,

792
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: namely the island vacation destination of Iscia and UH and

793
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: also of Flagrian Fields, which is another another area in

794
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: that region that is known for its volcanic activity. Lee Marshall,

795
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: writing at the time, pointed out quote the notorious ss

796
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: TO six S eight dual carriageway between Naples and the

797
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 1: Sarentine Peninsula, design not only to relieve congestion but also

798
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: provide an escape route from the volcano, is still not complete.

799
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: Construction of the road started incredibly in the eighties. So

800
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: in that article, Marshall contended that the locals were more

801
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 1: inclined to take solace in religious faith than in emergency planning. Now,

802
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: this was obviously written a few years ago, and I

803
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 1: was looking around trying to find any confirmation that ss

804
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: TO has actually been completed and is, you know, in operation.

805
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: I couldn't find any articles about it. Uh some of

806
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: them were, you know, in Italian somewhere translated into English.

807
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: So if we have any Italian or Italian speaking Italian

808
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: reading listeners out there who want to set the record straight, uh,

809
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. But based on

810
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: I was looking around, like Google Maps. If you look

811
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: a Google Map inquiry for a route between Naples and

812
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: the Sarentine Peninsula, it initially only provides a route via

813
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: SS three, sixty six and forty five which travels right

814
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: between the ocean and the slopes of Mount Vesuvius. So like,

815
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: not a good place to be. So that sounds like

816
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: a roughly herculaneum zone. Yeah yeah, like and like, yeah,

817
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: you don't want to be between Vesuvius and the ocean. Yeah,

818
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: this is this is definitely in the red zone. Um.

819
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: But the more I, when I look closely, it looked

820
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: like you could actually it would route you on s

821
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: S two if you dragged the route around with your

822
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: mouse cursor. So I personally cannot tell to what degree

823
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: like that is now a valid option to deal with

824
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: the evacuation. Okay, we have had an official Google Maps

825
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: fail getting out, but but to whatever degree you know,

826
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: this is finally in place etcetera. Like what I'm trying

827
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: to to drive home from those articles that I that

828
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: I cited there is that you know, we still live,

829
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: We still have people living in high concentration in areas

830
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: near active volcanoes. And yes, even with modern science, we

831
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: may have again two weeks notice on a pending eruption,

832
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: but that's two weeks to sometimes move a very large

833
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: number of people out of the danger zone. It, I mean,

834
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: it makes you start to wonder more broadly about like

835
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: what are the kinds of risks that human settlements should

836
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: be tolerant of, because it's clear, you know, they're all

837
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: kinds of places where there are there are different risks

838
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: of natural disasters that are going to come with different severity,

839
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: different frequency. I mean, I don't know how exactly you

840
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: compare say like densely populated areas around a volcano that

841
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: you know that sometimes will erupt, hasn't had a majorly

842
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: destructive eruption, and while but you know probably is at

843
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: some point in the indeterminate future going to erupt again. Uh,

844
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: and you know that would be massively destructive versus I

845
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: don't know, like having civilizations in like a tornado zone

846
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: where each you know each tornado is that tornadoes are

847
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: going to be more regular, They're gonna happen every year.

848
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: Each one is less destructive than a volcanic eruption. But

849
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: they're just coming in these constant waves, and you just

850
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: hope one doesn't come near your house. Yeah, and then

851
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: you have to what degree are you leaning on, um,

852
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: emergency preparation or even again religious faith to deal with

853
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: that probability? Yeah, I guess I just mean I don't

854
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: know how to do the math on you know, how

855
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: to compare those types of risks. Well, I mean, you know,

856
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: a big one, of course, is residing in coastal regions

857
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: that are gonna be affected by hurricanes, you know, and

858
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: in some cases the I've read that the best advice

859
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: is like, well, if your home is destroyed, like do

860
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: not rebuild it. You need to move further inland. Um.

861
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: So you know there there's a version of this for

862
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: for various different environments around the world. I mean, even

863
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: places where the risk is not as notably catastrophic. If

864
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: it's just say, and a region that is highly susceptible

865
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: to the ravages of drought, you know, uh, it doesn't

866
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: look is good on a painting the drought, uh, you know,

867
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 1: reaking habit compared to that of a volcano. But still

868
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: it can be extremely deadly, and it has proven deadly

869
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: many times in the past. So Vesuvius has been described

870
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: as the most densely populated area of active volcanism in

871
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: the world. But here are a few others of note. Um.

872
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: One is Cotapaxi, Ecuador, which is actually a volcano I

873
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: hope to see in the in the not too distant future.

874
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: Uh three hundred thousand people. I've also seen it listed

875
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: his three hundred twenty five thousand live relatively closely nearby.

876
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: A last eruption was and it was mostly steam. But

877
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: it is an area of a frequent discussion with these

878
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: and but on top of that, it is also supposed

879
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: to be just a very beautiful location and fun fact,

880
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: Alexander von Humboldt attempted to climbate in eighteen o two. Okay,

881
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: I must uh that must be described in that book

882
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: about him. I like what I recommend of this in

883
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: our summer reading many years ago, The Invention of Nature

884
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: by Andrea Wolf fantastic book about Alexander von Humboldt. If

885
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: if you haven't read it, you should all right, here's

886
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: another one, Katla, Iceland. This is near the town of

887
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: the Vic and it last erupted in nineteen eighteen. Katla

888
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: is even larger than e Figilogical, which disrupted European flights

889
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,479
Speaker 1: when it erupted in So I've been to the town

890
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: of Vic. I stayed in a hotel near Vick one time,

891
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: and I remember having a conversation with the guy. The

892
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: hotel I think was basically this guy's house and it's

893
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,959
Speaker 1: sort of been expanded out to have hotel rooms in it. Uh,

894
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 1: And I remember talking to this guy who ran the place,

895
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: and he was like showing us a map of the

896
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: area on the wall and just sort of talking about like,

897
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: you know how, yeah, here's what happened the last time

898
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: the volcano erupted, and it will erupt again at some point.

899
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, it was strange. I mean, he he

900
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: must have just had a different attitude about this different

901
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: emotional relationship to the idea of his home being destroyed

902
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: by a volcano, because he didn't seem all that concerned

903
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: about it. He was just sort of matter of factly

904
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: explaining that at some point there will be a geological

905
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: event that will completely destroy his home. And uh, I

906
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: don't know if his matter of factness was just something

907
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: about this guy in particular, if more people would seem

908
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: more upset by the idea, or if like, living in

909
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: a place like that kind of forces you to make

910
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: peace with it in a way that I don't know,

911
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: you're just like, yeah, it will happen at some point, Yeah, yeah,

912
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: I mean probably a little bit of both, right. Yeah.

913
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: A few other places of note. There's uh uh Sakurajima, Japan,

914
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: near the city of Kegoshima. That's a six hundred thousand people.

915
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: There's Mount Etna that we mentioned earlier. Then there's also Papocotta, Petal, Mexico,

916
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: and this is near Mexico City itself. And of course

917
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: one of the big concerns with all these is not

918
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: you know, it's not necessarily it's not only who are

919
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: in the danger zone, but then having to deal with

920
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: people from the danger zone, refugee crisis, et cetera. Now

921
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 1: you might be wondering, you know, why do we find

922
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: so many people living near some of these volcanoes. So

923
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: we've already touched, you know, on the the advantages of

924
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: say the volcanic soil and all and the geological advantages

925
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: to some of these locations. And you know, again on

926
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: one levels, just part of the human experience, part of

927
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: living on a volatile planet where various regions offer threats

928
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquake drouts, blizzards and more. Um. According

929
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: to the U S Geological Survey, not counting ocean floor volcanoes,

930
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: which are is where we find most of them, UH,

931
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 1: there are fifteen hundred potentially active volcanoes worldwide, five hundred

932
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: of which have erupted during historical time. Some of these

933
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: are more remote and perhaps only threatened a limited number

934
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: of people, such as say the two hundred people who

935
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: live on the remote Japanese island of Agoshima in the

936
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: Philippine Sea. It would this particular volcano last erupted in

937
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, killing half the population, and today uh

938
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: people live inside the volcanic crater depending on its geothermal power.

939
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: And you can you should look up a picture of this.

940
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: It's spelled Ao g A s h I m A,

941
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: and they had some of these images. You can you

942
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: see the whole volcanic island, and you can pinpoint um.

943
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: You know, the signs of human habitation within the crater.

944
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: And again it's just kind of a reminder of what

945
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: it means to be a human in uh, you know,

946
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: on a planet that is subject to to to upheaval

947
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: like this. And then of course they're the Hawaiian islands,

948
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: which are of course products of volcanic activity. The islands

949
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: themselves were created by eruptions, and then ideal bays and

950
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: harbors or you know, often the remnants of the calderas

951
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: with Vesuvius. The region is beautiful and economically valuable because

952
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: of the volcanic formation of the surrounding region. And on

953
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: top of that, the volcanic soil, like we mentioned in

954
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: the first episode, rich ideal for orchards and vineyards, and

955
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: it's a vacation destination as well. But isn't like the

956
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: most active volcano in the world old in Hawaii. Yeah,

957
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: Kilauea on the Big Island is is quite active. Yeah,

958
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: and uh, and it's it's really it's worth looking at

959
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: because there's a there's a wonderful two eighteen New York

960
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: Times article by Simon Romero titled Hawaii's volcano country, where

961
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: land is cheap and the living is risky. And I

962
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: thought this, this is really telling to again getting that

963
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: question of why do people live in close proximity to

964
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: U volcanoes? Sometimes um so in this particular situation. Obviously,

965
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: Hawaii is beautiful. I love Hawaii. I have when I've visited.

966
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: I've been fortunate to visit a few times, and uh

967
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 1: and I always love it. I never want to leave

968
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: when I am there. But here's the thing. There's limited

969
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: land there, and the way that land is used is

970
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,720
Speaker 1: oftentimes controversial. On top of this, there's a severe housing

971
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: shortage and very little affordable property and uh, you know,

972
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: Ramero writes that the economic factors alone have led some

973
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: on the Big Island to live ever closer to the

974
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: wrath of this, this beautiful but active volcano. In this article,

975
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: which I do recommend reading in full, the author speaks

976
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: with one uh, an individual by the name of Jaris

977
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: dreaming um musician. So that's thus the colorful name uh.

978
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 1: And he's an individual who purchased some one hundred acres

979
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: of land for a hundred thousand dollars. And the reason

980
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: it was so cheap was because it's very close proximity

981
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: to active lava flows. So not just the possibility of

982
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: volcanic activity, but the the visual like the clear of

983
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: volcanic activity of moving lava um. Another example, I just sorry,

984
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: I just had a question. How does real estate law

985
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: deal with lava flows that like change the outlines of land?

986
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: That's that's a great question. Yeah. Yeah, So like if

987
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: you say, if you own land and then it gets

988
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: paved over by lava flows, I assume you still own

989
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: I don't know how you measure it, like afly the

990
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: same land with the same borders. What about if so

991
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: lava flows create new land going out into the ocean

992
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 1: where it was previously, Like who gets that land? I

993
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: don't know, that's a that's a good question. I'm thinking

994
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that in most of the situations that we'd

995
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: be able to look at, it would not be like

996
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: an individual's land. I don't know that would it be

997
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: whoever owns the shoreline that it extends from. I guess.

998
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: But then also I'm I'm I'm pretty sure that would

999
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: be off limits anyway, Like you wouldn't be able to

1000
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 1: They wouldn't let you even try to build an active

1001
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: lava um for instance. An example that Romero brings up

1002
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: in this particular article is that a nine eruption buried

1003
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: a hundred homes in Kalapana in uh In, Hawaii on

1004
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 1: the Big Island, and today you'll find dozens of not

1005
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: to code homes that have been built atop the same

1006
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: flow field. So it's I mean, you know, this is

1007
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: the place was buried. Now there is new land there,

1008
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: and you know, aparently nobody's supposed to officially be living there,

1009
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: but there's available land there in a place where available

1010
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: land is scarce, so of course people are going to

1011
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: move there despite the risks. I mean, it's kind of

1012
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: like I think about haunted houses a lot, especially when

1013
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: when topics of like home values come up and and

1014
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: so forth, in part because I find those topics of

1015
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: dreary and depressing and I want to retreat into fantasy.

1016
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: But also I'm like, I would put up with a

1017
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: ghost if you know, if it meant uh, you know,

1018
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 1: lower lower mortgage payment and whatnot. I maybe I would

1019
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: even invent the idea of a ghost if it resulted

1020
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: in that, you know, um, so oh yeah, can you

1021
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: get a discount that way? Like call up your bank

1022
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: and say, like, nobody told me this house was haunted.

1023
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: I want to I want to reduce my mortgage. Yeah.

1024
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean, plus the other side, the other way of

1025
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: looking at it is that you know, a ghost is

1026
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: much safer than an act of lava flow in your backyard,

1027
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: So I would be all for it. You know what

1028
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: this makes me think is we could do a whole

1029
00:56:56,239 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: other episode sometime on the theology of volcanic eruptions. Oh

1030
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 1: for sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah, the various divine interpretations of

1031
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: the eruptions, the mythological reasons given for the eruptions, that

1032
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: would be cool to get into. Yeah. We didn't even

1033
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: really touch that, didn't. I think the most we did

1034
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: was discussing how there were stories of the rumblings of

1035
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: Vesuvius being tied to tales or accules fighting monsters or

1036
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: giants in the earth. Yeah. Probably. I think that has

1037
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: something to do with the naming of Herculaneum. Yeah, like

1038
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: the idea that it was founded by hercules. Yeah, and

1039
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: of course in uh in the culture of Hawaii you

1040
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: find the tales of of Pale the volcano deity. So yeah,

1041
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: there there would be a lot of rich territory to

1042
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: discuss there. So maybe we'll return. If everybody's into the

1043
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: topic of volcanoes. There's a lot more to discuss. There's

1044
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: a like. One area I'd like to come back to

1045
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: potentially would be to discuss volcanic winter, discussed the year

1046
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: without summer. Yes, that would be uh, I think a

1047
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: good one to return to. We'll be back in the meantime,

1048
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: just like the lava flow will be back. Yes, they will.

1049
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: It's an active world. Uh. In the meantime, we would

1050
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: love to hear from any of you, especially if you

1051
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: out there have if you live or have lived in

1052
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: an area of volcanic activity, Uh, definitely right in and

1053
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: let us know what it's like. If you have, if

1054
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 1: you can answer our questions about the highways surrounding vesuvious,

1055
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: we'd like to hear from you as well. Have you

1056
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: visited some of these places, We'd we'd love to hear

1057
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: from you about that as well. Uh. In the meantime,

1058
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