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Speaker 1: Pushkin. These days, there's really no shortage of relationship advice

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Speaker 1: out there. There are the usual Dear Abbey in Modern

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Speaker 1: Love type columns and newspapers and magazines. There are also

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Speaker 1: reality TV dating shows, couples podcasts, TikTok videos, Instagram reels,

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Speaker 1: Reddit dating threads, and on and on and on. Some

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Speaker 1: of this advice is helpful, but a lot of it

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Speaker 1: isn't backed up by empirical evidence. So in this new

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Speaker 1: season of The Happiness Lab, I wanted to explore what

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Speaker 1: the science says about building happier relationships, and what better

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Speaker 1: way to begin than with a husband and wife team

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Speaker 1: that not only has decades of married life experience to

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Speaker 1: draw on, but also a wealth of knowledge gained from

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Speaker 1: some truly elegant scientific studies.

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Speaker 2: Julie's walking around with our grand side on her arms.

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Speaker 1: How well does he?

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Speaker 2: He is going to be too in January that he

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Speaker 2: just started doing imaginative play this morning, Okay, Joles, I'd

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Speaker 2: like to be included.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Julie Schwartz Gotman is a clinical psychologist who's helped

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Speaker 1: people facing challenges in many domains of life, including in

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Speaker 1: their romantic relationships.

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Speaker 2: By the way, the book is called fight right, I

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Speaker 2: bet are doing good.

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Speaker 3: Title too, I thought of it, so that means it's

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Speaker 3: really great.

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Speaker 1: Doctor John Gotman is an academic psychologist and pioneering relationship researcher.

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Speaker 1: Back in nineteen seventy six, John used the primitive video

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Speaker 1: technology of his day to capture real life couples interacting

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Speaker 1: with one another. Collaborating with his then research partner, doctor

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Speaker 1: Robert Levinson, John analyzed hours and hours of taped interviews

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Speaker 1: in order to learn how some couples are able to

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Speaker 1: maintain healthy relationships and to spot the warning signs that

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Speaker 1: a partnership could be doomed. Today, Julian John Brunn the

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Speaker 1: Gotman Institute, an entire research center devoted to udying romantic relationships.

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Speaker 1: You probably won't be surprised to hear that they have

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Speaker 1: a lot of wise things to say, so much so

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Speaker 1: that we've decided to split their interview into two chunks. Today,

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Speaker 1: the Gutmans will share what's so called masters of relationships

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Speaker 1: can teach us about avoiding the pitfalls of criticism, contempt, defensiveness,

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Speaker 1: and stonewalling. These are the traits that John and Julie

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Speaker 1: have christened the four horsemen of relationship destruction. They found

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Speaker 1: that their presence in a partnership pretty much guarantees and

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Speaker 1: impending apocalypse. But the real story started way before John

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Speaker 1: and Julie even got together, back when John and his

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Speaker 1: colleague Robert Levinson, we're dreaming up a way to robustly

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Speaker 1: study relationships inside the laboratory.

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Speaker 2: We're too dumb to really have a good area or anything.

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Speaker 2: So we just had couples come into this lab talk

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Speaker 2: about how their day went after they've been apart for

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Speaker 2: eight hours, and interviewed about the major problem in their

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Speaker 2: relationship and ask them to resolve it. And then they

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Speaker 2: looked at their videotapes and turned the dial to tell

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Speaker 2: us what they were feeling from very negative to very positive.

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Speaker 2: And then we just sent them home because we had

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Speaker 2: no clue about that to help anybody, you know. And

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Speaker 2: three years later we recontacted these couples to see if

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Speaker 2: they were still together and how happily married they were,

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Speaker 2: how their relationship had changed, And then we started really

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Speaker 2: looking at the data to get hypotheses and really determined

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Speaker 2: over time by doing this study over and over again,

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Speaker 2: also with gam let's mean couples, that there really are

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Speaker 2: masters of relationship and disasters like Bob and I, so

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Speaker 2: you know, we actually learned from the research. And then

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Speaker 2: twenty six years ago, Julie and I decided to work

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Speaker 2: together in the canoe, you know, where we were paddling

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Speaker 2: in the ocean. Julie suggested they we work together. And

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Speaker 2: it was a great combination because Bob and I had

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Speaker 2: no idea to help anybody, and Julie, with our clinical experience,

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Speaker 2: we were able to combine and create a theory of

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Speaker 2: how relationships work. And then twenty six years that we've

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Speaker 2: been testing it out in experiments.

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Speaker 1: And so Julia, I was going to ask your version

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Speaker 1: of how you two got together in the first place.

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Speaker 1: I guess it involves a canoe.

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Speaker 2: Huh.

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Speaker 3: How we got together in terms of our studies and so.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of both the together in terms of

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Speaker 1: the studies and in terms of the forever together.

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's see. We both moved to Seattle Light around

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Speaker 3: the same time, so I just finished my PhD. John

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Speaker 3: has already been a professor and was moving to University

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Speaker 3: of Washington. So we actually met in a coffeehouse. John

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Speaker 3: came over to me and said, I wish he would

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Speaker 3: have said, you're the most gorgeous thing I've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: I really want to have coffee with you. But you know,

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Speaker 3: he said, what would you think about having coffee with me?

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Speaker 3: You know, kind of a nice try professariat question. So

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Speaker 3: I said sure. So he sat down and we had coffee,

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Speaker 3: and we had the most incredible conversation. It was fantastic,

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Speaker 3: And the next conversation we had over the phone was

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Speaker 3: four hours long, so there was obviously a connection. And

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Speaker 3: I think on our second date, John said, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was in another relationship, but I've told her I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to see her anymore. I found somebody I

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Speaker 3: want to try and work things out with. I immediately

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Speaker 3: had a panic attab it was.

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Speaker 2: Like really already.

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Speaker 3: But five months later he proposed I said yes. And

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Speaker 3: I was working purely in clinical work, so I was

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Speaker 3: working with really the sickest of the sick. I was

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Speaker 3: working with folks who were psychotic, who had severe PTSD,

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Speaker 3: who'd come back from various wars and torture, who might

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Speaker 3: have had addictions and so on, and so I was

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Speaker 3: working quite intensely with those folks in private practice for

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Speaker 3: about I don't know, five or six years or something.

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Speaker 3: But every night over dinner. John would come home and

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Speaker 3: tell me about his research, and I kept thinking to myself,

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Speaker 3: maintain your boundaries, stay in your old world. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's okay, it's interesting, but stay in your own world.

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Speaker 3: And then I didn't. So we were out canoeing outside

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Speaker 3: of Orcas Island in the sea. It was just absolutely gorgeous,

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Speaker 3: and you suggested it and let me finish. And I

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Speaker 3: said to him, honey, what do you think about taking

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Speaker 3: this stuff out of the ivory tower. It's such good

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Speaker 3: knowledge and people have no idea of how to have

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Speaker 3: a relationship. So how about our trying to work on

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Speaker 3: this stuff and create interventions, create theory to really prevent

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Speaker 3: what made the disasters fall apart years later, and then

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Speaker 3: we'll test it, see how it works, and the rest

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Speaker 3: is history. We immediately started jump into that, then form

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Speaker 3: the Dtwin Institute to start having couples workshops and.

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Speaker 2: So on, and we built this apartment lab like a

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Speaker 2: cold love lab, and so one hundred and thirty newly

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Speaker 2: led couples just a couple of months after the wedding,

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Speaker 2: and followed them as many of them became pregnant and

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Speaker 2: had babies, And you know, I learned to study babies

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Speaker 2: and it was really fun. It led to our Bringing

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Speaker 2: Baby Home intervention, which has been our most powerful intervention

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Speaker 2: because when the first baby arrives in the first three

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Speaker 2: years of the baby's life, many couples go through a

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Speaker 2: big drop in relationship happiness and fight a lot and

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Speaker 2: a lot of conflict. But about a third of them don't.

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Speaker 2: And we were able to look at the differences between

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Speaker 2: those two groups and build this workshop and test it

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Speaker 2: and evaluate it and it's very effective.

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Speaker 1: And so when we hear your story about getting together,

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Speaker 1: it's such a lovely story. I think it can people

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Speaker 1: to experience a little bit of a misconception that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us have when it comes to love. Right,

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Speaker 1: that love just happens right. You see somebody in a

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Speaker 1: coffee shop, you ask them to coffee, and the rest

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Speaker 1: is history. But your work shows that that's not really

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Speaker 1: how good love works. Tell me how love in some

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Speaker 1: sense really works well.

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Speaker 3: First of all, the first phase of a loving relationship,

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Speaker 3: which people adoringly call in love, is basically chemistry. It's

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Speaker 3: basically pheromones. You are sensing one another at every level,

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Speaker 3: and all the stars come out in the sky. You know,

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Speaker 3: you're very excited, you're very happy. Everything is wonderful. It's

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Speaker 3: a big honeymoon. You move towards marriage, You get married,

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Speaker 3: and then boom, the bomb drops. You find out your

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Speaker 3: partner is really messy and you're not. You find that

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Speaker 3: you know all the differences between you that are significant

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Speaker 3: and that are true for every single couple. Every person

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Speaker 3: hands their own neun unique personality and lifestyle preference, and

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Speaker 3: nobody is a clone of each other. If they were,

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Speaker 3: we'd be bored to tears. And so people are really different,

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Speaker 3: and as a result, people have to learn how to

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Speaker 3: manage their differences, manage conflict, create a path, a journey forward,

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Speaker 3: especially with commitment, in which you're creating a culture that

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Speaker 3: honors both of you, honors both of your traditions, your rituals,

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Speaker 3: your preferences, and that's not always an easy thing. The

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Speaker 3: other thing, too, is that none of us has a nice, stable,

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Speaker 3: flat line of a mood. We're always going up and

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Speaker 3: down and up and down, and sometimes we're crabby, sometimes

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Speaker 3: we're full of delight. Sometimes we just want sleep all day.

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Speaker 3: And how does our partner hold that in their hands?

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Speaker 3: Are they there for us? There for them? That building

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Speaker 3: of trust is incredibly important. Are you there for me

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Speaker 3: when I'm sick? Are you there for me when I'm depressed?

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Speaker 3: Are you there for me when I'm triumphant and I

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Speaker 3: just got a big raise and I want to celebrate.

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Speaker 3: Are you there for me when I just am so

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Speaker 3: stressed out I can't see street. So there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of back and forth in terms of testing one another.

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Speaker 2: That's a reality. And yeah, all of the trust, all

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Speaker 2: of the conflicts of those one hundred and thirty uliwds,

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Speaker 2: we're basically about trust. About what Julie's talking about, Are

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Speaker 2: you going to be there for me? Can I count

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Speaker 2: on you? And the couples who build trust really go

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Speaker 2: on to have a very good relationship, and usually there's

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Speaker 2: more commitment. With commitment, there really are saying you have

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Speaker 2: the love of my life. There's nobody on the planet

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Speaker 2: that can compare to you. I'm old men, And I think.

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Speaker 1: This importance of trust gets to another misconception that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us have, right. I think when

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Speaker 1: we think of successful couples, a lot of us mistakenly

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Speaker 1: think that they're couples that exist maybe without conflict, or

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Speaker 1: they don't fight very much. They don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of negative interactions, But your work has shown that the

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Speaker 1: negative interactions might not be as important as the flip side.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: Even a woman's anger, for example, which men find unpleasant

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Speaker 2: in the moment, in the long run, really is good

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Speaker 2: for the relationship. You know, what a lot of couple

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Speaker 2: therapists thought was the destruction of anger is actually a

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Speaker 2: good thing. So if people can talk about what they

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Speaker 2: feel and what they need with one another, then you know,

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Speaker 2: these emotions really can be very constructive. And the goal

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Speaker 2: of conflict is mutual understanding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let me say a little more about that. Most people,

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Speaker 3: when they have conflicts, what they imagine is just skating

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Speaker 3: on the surface. They have this current problem. They've got

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Speaker 3: to come up with a fix for that current problem.

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Speaker 3: They are not necessarily aware of all the underlying subterranean messages, history, values,

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Speaker 3: ideal dreams that lie beneath that surface that they're arguing about.

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Speaker 3: And so part of what we saw Laurie with the

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Speaker 3: Masters of Relationship is that they almost always dug deep

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Speaker 3: when there was a really significant issue at stake, and

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Speaker 3: they would reveal their enduring vulnerabilities. The old scar tissue

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Speaker 3: from childhood, baggage they were still carrying, or another relationship,

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Speaker 3: an old relationship. Nobody really escapes childhood without some kind

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Speaker 3: of baggage. I mean, I've never seen somebody who has.

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Speaker 3: And thus, when we are fighting for something we believe in,

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Speaker 3: some of that baggage can get kicked up, right Like,

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Speaker 3: we may feel judged, we may feel rejected, we may

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Speaker 3: feel down. Even when our partner is saying, honey, you're

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Speaker 3: the most wonderful thing on the planet. Still, you know,

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Speaker 3: we're hearing old messages in that brain of ours and

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Speaker 3: misinterpreting what our partner is saying. So the successful couples

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Speaker 3: are people who really check deeply, am I hearing you correctly?

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Speaker 3: Is this what you're saying? Tell me where that comes from?

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Speaker 3: Where did that value get established in your life? Because

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Speaker 3: it sounds like it's relatively new and before that you

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Speaker 3: had a different set of values.

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Speaker 2: What happened?

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Speaker 3: It's people really exploring each other's internal landscape to find

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Speaker 3: out where does their partner live inside? Who is their partner?

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Speaker 3: Really that's the beauty of conflict that you're opening up

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Speaker 3: these aspects of people's inner world that you may not

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Speaker 3: have really been aware of fully and through conflict you

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Speaker 3: learn all about that, and that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: And so I think we're going to dive much more

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Speaker 1: deeply into the conflict work. I want to get totally

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Speaker 1: to fight right. But I also wanted to start with

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Speaker 1: some of your earlier work just on the power of

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Speaker 1: positive interactions, because I think when we think about couples

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Speaker 1: that aren't doing so great, were mostly thinking about couples

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Speaker 1: that are having fights or having conflict or things like that,

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Speaker 1: but we often don't realize that sometimes it's really about

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Speaker 1: couples not investing in the positive side of things and

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Speaker 1: kind of getting to some of these bids and things.

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Speaker 1: And so you talk about this kind of misconception that

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Speaker 1: the investment really needs to be in the positive side

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Speaker 1: of things too.

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Speaker 2: And we noticed very quickly in the Apartment Land that

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Speaker 2: there were these small moments where one or both people

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Speaker 2: were trying to make a connection, get their partner's attention

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Speaker 2: or interest, or have a conversation, get some affection, tell

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Speaker 2: a story, tell a joke, and how the partner responded

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Speaker 2: to this bid for connection really predicted the future of

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Speaker 2: a relationship. And it's now been called the Bird test

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Speaker 2: on TikTok, And the idea is, you know, if you're

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Speaker 2: trying to get your partner's attention just to look at

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Speaker 2: a bird outside and they do, they say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: beautiful bird, then that really predicts a very good relationship.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, the couples who divorced and the love

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Speaker 2: lad had only turned toward bids thirty three percent of

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Speaker 2: the time. The couples who were still together six years

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Speaker 2: earlier had turned toward these bids eighty six percent of

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Speaker 2: the time. So a really huge difference.

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Speaker 1: So give me a side how couples can react to

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Speaker 1: one another's bids, you know. So maybe because you've talked

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Speaker 1: about like three different ways people can kind of react.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, let me start with a bidwn. You know,

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Speaker 2: I had a really disturbing dream last night about your mother.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm reading? Would you stop interrupting me.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Boo.

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Speaker 3: That's hostile, right, that's turning against That's what we call

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Speaker 3: it turning against. Try to get I really had a

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Speaker 3: disturbing dream last night about your mother.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to talk to you about it.

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Speaker 3: Silence. It's as if your partner didn't say a word.

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Speaker 3: They don't exist. That's called turning away, and it makes

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Speaker 3: people feel unimportant, devalued, disrespected, invisible. Now let's try it again.

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Speaker 2: I had a really disturbing dream last night my mother,

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Speaker 2: you did? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Really, my mother got into your dream?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was right in there.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, So what happened to tell me about it?

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Speaker 2: She was so nice to me?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I was really surprised that she was

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Speaker 2: so affectionate.

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Speaker 3: That's called turning towards, where you're immediately responding with interest,

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Speaker 3: with attention, and with connection to your partner's bid for connection.

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Speaker 2: It feels so different, you know, when you try to

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Speaker 2: connect and your partner doesn't. So the probability we discovered

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Speaker 2: a rebidding when your partner turns away is almost zero

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Speaker 2: in relationships that are doomed. It's only twenty two percent

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Speaker 2: in relationships that are going to stay together. So it's

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Speaker 2: very low all the time. So people kind of crumple

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Speaker 2: inside a little bit. Can I describe an image? If

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Speaker 2: you imagine a sea anemone, those are those creatures you know,

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Speaker 2: that have about one hundred little tiny fingers, and those

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Speaker 2: fingers will stretch out, straightened out, and open up when

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Speaker 2: they're relaxed and they're happy. Imagine just poking a little bit,

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Speaker 2: poking in the center, which is the equivalent of turning events,

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Speaker 2: and what happens the cnemone folds up its fingers very

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Speaker 2: quickly and tightly and is very reluctant to open them

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Speaker 2: up again. That's, you know, classically, what happens inside of

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Speaker 2: us when somebody turns against our bid. You know, when

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Speaker 2: we're opening up to our partner, they turn against away.

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Speaker 2: We shrink down inside of ourselves and again feel unsafe,

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Speaker 2: so we don't want to open up again, not for

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Speaker 2: a while. So love occurs in these very small moments,

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Speaker 2: which is why we say love's a verb, because it's

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Speaker 2: what you do moment to moment that makes the difference.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons I find this works so powerful

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, I get the sense, of course,

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Speaker 1: that when you're kind of being adversarial when your partner

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Speaker 1: makes a bid, if you say why are you talking

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Speaker 1: to me or something, that that's negative. I think the

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Speaker 1: striking thing from your work is that it's just as

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Speaker 1: bad when the partner just reacts with silence, when you're

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Speaker 1: not paying attention. After reading your work, I've been much

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Speaker 1: more careful about this with my husband, But there are

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Speaker 1: definitely times when I'm you know, checking my email or

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Speaker 1: looking at a screen that you know, he's mentioning something,

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Speaker 1: and my sense like, h this is not interesting, Like

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Speaker 1: it's so easy not to pay attention. But when you realize,

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Speaker 1: like the person on the other end of that email,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to care that I took you know,

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Speaker 1: time away for two seconds. But my husband, you know

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Speaker 1: that bid it matters a lot if I turn away.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is this the kind of thing you see

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Speaker 1: in couples nowadays? There's so many more distractions for our

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Speaker 1: mid time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, you know. I mean, I'm sure all

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Speaker 3: of us have gone into a cafe and we've seen

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Speaker 3: a table of four people, maybe every single person is

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Speaker 3: on their phone and they're looking at their screens, they're

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Speaker 3: not looking at each other, and there's absolute silence at

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Speaker 3: the table. What kind of community connection is that? It's nothing,

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Speaker 3: which for me anyway, is very painful to see because

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Speaker 3: there's the opportunity all these people sitting together, or a

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Speaker 3: couple sitting together, where they really could be having interaction, connection, laughter, delight, enjoyment,

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Speaker 3: sharing stories. Nope, silence that feels very empty, like a

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Speaker 3: vaccine exists between them.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know what's really amazing RRI is that these

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Speaker 2: small moments mount up. You know, either we an emotional

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Speaker 2: bank account that has a lot of good stuff in

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Speaker 2: it or one that's bearing. In the latter case, it

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Speaker 2: leaves people feeling very lonely and in the other very

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Speaker 2: full and very connected. And it affects not only love

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Speaker 2: in the moment, it affects our physical health and longevity.

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Speaker 2: So if we have a more connected relationship, we're going

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Speaker 2: to live about seventeen years longer than if we don't.

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Speaker 1: If living a longer, happier life isn't a good enough

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Speaker 1: reason to pay just a little more attention to our

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Speaker 1: loved ones, then I don't know what is. But being

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Speaker 1: receptive to our partner's bids for attention are only one

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Speaker 1: of the things that the Gatmans recommend. Their next challenge

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Speaker 1: involves finding ways to remain curious about our lovers, no

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Speaker 1: matter how long we've been with them. We'll hear more

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Speaker 1: about why building curiosity is so important when the happiness

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Speaker 1: labor turns in a moment. If you're months, years, or

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Speaker 1: even decades into a relationship, you might be tempted to

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Speaker 1: think that you know everything there is to know about

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Speaker 1: your partner, But relationship experts Julian John Gotman say that

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Speaker 1: can be a fatal assumption. It can also be a

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Speaker 1: problem when life simply gets in the way of the

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Speaker 1: usual relationship curiosity.

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Speaker 3: When we get busy things to do, children, to pick up,

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Speaker 3: meals to me, grocery shopping to do, busy, busy, busy.

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Speaker 3: How much time do we actually have to give to

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Speaker 3: conversation with our partner where we're simply just wanting to know,

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Speaker 3: how is your day, what was the worst part about

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Speaker 3: it for you? What was really happening that upset you

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Speaker 3: at set, we're not asking each other those big questions.

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Speaker 1: Julie says that retaining a deep curiosity is vital to

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Speaker 1: the health of any relationship, but it's also something that

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Speaker 1: often fades after the early days of courtship.

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Speaker 3: You may remember when you were first dating or you

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Speaker 3: first met your partner, you didn't know anything, and so

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Speaker 3: you ask them lots of questions to find out who

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Speaker 3: are they, what makes them tick, where did they come from,

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Speaker 3: how did that legacy influence them now? But when we

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Speaker 3: get busy with kids, with jobs, with careers. We take

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Speaker 3: for granted that we really know our partner, so we

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Speaker 3: don't need to ask those questions anymore. But think about it, guys,

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Speaker 3: every single day is a new experience, and every new

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Speaker 3: experience builds another layer of identity into each individual. Well,

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Speaker 3: how do you keep up with that evolution of your partner,

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Speaker 3: that development as they go through new experiences, politics, friendships,

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Speaker 3: You know, who do they become? Because we're always in

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Speaker 3: a state of becoming. We never have just arrived. That's

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Speaker 3: an allusion. We're always becoming, and thus we have to

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Speaker 3: keep asking open ended questions, that is, questions that have

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Speaker 3: a great, big answer, not just a one word or

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Speaker 3: two word answer, to learn Who are you today? Who

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Speaker 3: do you want to be tomorrow? Those are important questions

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Speaker 3: to keep repeating throughout our relationship. May I tell you

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Speaker 3: a story, Lorie?

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Speaker 2: Oh please?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, here's the story how all of this got started.

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Speaker 3: When John and I were first married, we didn't have

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Speaker 3: much money. He was a professor, I was starting in

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Speaker 3: private practice. But we wanted to go out on a

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Speaker 3: date night once. So we lived in Seattle and there's

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Speaker 3: a beautiful hotel called the Sorrento that has a magnificent,

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Speaker 3: big stone fireplace in the lobby and gorgeous, beautiful soft

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00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:07,396
Speaker 3: couches that you fold into right in front of the fireplace.

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Speaker 3: So what John and I would do is we would

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Speaker 3: go to this hotel and we'd pretend we were guests

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Speaker 3: and we would grab a couch, stay in the couch

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Speaker 3: for three hours, have one drink, which was cheap, and

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day we would walk out.

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Speaker 3: So during the date, we would ask each other these

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Speaker 3: big questions. John always brought a yellow pad and he

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Speaker 3: would take notes about my answers, which men, Oh my god,

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Speaker 3: I better be careful because one of those answers might

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Speaker 3: wind up been a book. And so I was very

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Speaker 3: careful about what I said. But we were never at

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Speaker 3: a loss for questions because there was always more going

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Speaker 3: on week to week that we wanted to learn about.

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Speaker 2: And later on we developed this tradition of our annual honeymoon.

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Speaker 2: We would rent a room at a bed and breakfast

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Speaker 2: and for about two weeks we would ask each other

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Speaker 2: three questions, what did you love about this year, what

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00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:06,036
Speaker 2: did you hate about this year? And what do you

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00:25:06,076 --> 00:25:08,596
Speaker 2: want next year to be like? So we do kind

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Speaker 2: of like a review of the whole relationship for that

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Speaker 2: year in that annual honeymoon. We've done it for twenty

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Speaker 2: three years now, it's tradition. And we asked those open

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00:25:18,556 --> 00:25:20,516
Speaker 2: and the questions of each other just to kind of

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Speaker 2: understand how our partner has been affected by the year,

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Speaker 2: you know, and what they're thinking about.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like this is so powerful to just kind

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00:25:29,436 --> 00:25:31,916
Speaker 1: of take the time to get to know your partner right.

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Speaker 1: You could notice them changing over time and so on.

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Speaker 1: But this is the kind of thing that we forget

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Speaker 1: to do when we're busy. Another thing we forget to

435
00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:41,956
Speaker 1: do when we're busy is to notice our partner's good features.

436
00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:44,436
Speaker 1: But you've argued that we need to fight this tendency

437
00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:46,276
Speaker 1: that another thing we can do to make love last

438
00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:47,596
Speaker 1: is to notice the good stuff.

439
00:25:47,716 --> 00:25:50,396
Speaker 2: Can I tell you about a study that is really amazing.

440
00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:54,156
Speaker 2: We didn't do it. This study had observers in couple's

441
00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:59,596
Speaker 2: homes just noting down everything positive that one person said

442
00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:02,836
Speaker 2: to the other, and one observer was observing the husband,

443
00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:06,676
Speaker 2: one observing the wife. The couple was also scoring what

444
00:26:06,716 --> 00:26:10,116
Speaker 2: their partner was doing positive and what they discovered was

445
00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:14,636
Speaker 2: that when the relationship wasn't going well, people missed fifty

446
00:26:14,676 --> 00:26:17,796
Speaker 2: percent of all this positivity. They just didn't see it.

447
00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:20,036
Speaker 1: So that is your partner's doing good things. They're taking

448
00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:22,876
Speaker 1: the garbage out, emptying the dishwasher, you know, saying nice things.

449
00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:24,716
Speaker 1: But it's just you don't even notice. It's just going

450
00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:25,116
Speaker 1: over your head.

451
00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:27,916
Speaker 2: You don't even notice it. Right, that's an amazing study,

452
00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:30,996
Speaker 2: Robinson and Price to dead study. You know, it's so

453
00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:35,956
Speaker 2: important because here's the positivity, but it's not getting noticed

454
00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:40,356
Speaker 2: by the partner when they're really unhappy in their relationship.

455
00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:41,036
Speaker 1: Right, and so how do we fix that?

456
00:26:41,276 --> 00:26:44,676
Speaker 3: Well, so our model is look for what your partner

457
00:26:44,796 --> 00:26:50,076
Speaker 3: is doing right and say thank you. Very very simple thing.

458
00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,596
Speaker 3: It's a habit of mind. We've grown up in a

459
00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:59,836
Speaker 3: very critical society. This is a very competitive, contemptuous place

460
00:27:00,476 --> 00:27:05,636
Speaker 3: where critical we're being criticized. We're always comparing ourselves, sometimes

461
00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:09,996
Speaker 3: negatively to other people. So you've come by it righteously,

462
00:27:10,196 --> 00:27:11,916
Speaker 3: this habit to look for what's.

463
00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:13,076
Speaker 2: Going wrong right.

464
00:27:13,476 --> 00:27:18,236
Speaker 3: But it's not that hard to just shift to if

465
00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:22,636
Speaker 3: my partner wasn't taking out garbage, wouldn't that be a drag?

466
00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:26,156
Speaker 3: How wonderful that they're taking out the garbage. Thank you

467
00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:29,516
Speaker 3: very much for taking out the garbage. So if you

468
00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:34,756
Speaker 3: imagine your partner's not doing this positive thing, it means

469
00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:37,396
Speaker 3: you'll probably have to be doing it, which will stress

470
00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:39,556
Speaker 3: you out even more because you already have a lot

471
00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:44,196
Speaker 3: on your plate, right, So it's practicing gratitude and it's

472
00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:49,316
Speaker 3: seeing what are they doing, even those little subtle things.

473
00:27:50,116 --> 00:27:54,036
Speaker 3: Every single morning For the last I don't know, thirty

474
00:27:54,716 --> 00:27:58,236
Speaker 3: seven years since we've been together, John's been making our

475
00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:02,396
Speaker 3: coffee every single morning, and it is really good and

476
00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:07,116
Speaker 3: I love it, and I thank him every single morning,

477
00:28:09,316 --> 00:28:11,556
Speaker 3: knows how I like it. And if I keep saying

478
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:13,116
Speaker 3: thank you, he'll keep making it.

479
00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:16,636
Speaker 1: And I know you had, if I recall from the book,

480
00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:18,636
Speaker 1: I know you had a story where you really noticed

481
00:28:18,636 --> 00:28:20,956
Speaker 1: for the first time how important that was. When he

482
00:28:20,996 --> 00:28:22,236
Speaker 1: wasn't there to make the coffee.

483
00:28:22,956 --> 00:28:27,076
Speaker 3: Well, I was very sad that he wasn't there, and

484
00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:30,356
Speaker 3: I was thanking God. Does it take five scoops or

485
00:28:30,436 --> 00:28:33,396
Speaker 3: six scoops? And I can't remember what I did, and

486
00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:35,516
Speaker 3: I don't know. I put in seven scoops just for

487
00:28:35,556 --> 00:28:38,236
Speaker 3: the heck of it, and then I shot to the

488
00:28:38,356 --> 00:28:41,236
Speaker 3: ceiling after drinking half a cup and stay.

489
00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:43,756
Speaker 2: There for the next four hours. This was not a

490
00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:44,316
Speaker 2: good thing.

491
00:28:44,676 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 3: So the next time when John made the coffee, was like, oh,

492
00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:52,676
Speaker 3: thank you for making I'm so relieved that you're here

493
00:28:52,836 --> 00:28:53,636
Speaker 3: making a coffee.

494
00:28:53,716 --> 00:28:56,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, this can become a habit of mine. Really, Instead

495
00:28:56,596 --> 00:29:00,596
Speaker 2: of focusing on your partner's mistakes and we all make mistakes,

496
00:29:00,836 --> 00:29:02,996
Speaker 2: if you focus on what your partner is doing right

497
00:29:03,076 --> 00:29:07,956
Speaker 2: and really express appreciation for it, then it's an entirely

498
00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:12,356
Speaker 2: different relationship. And actually the person who shifts their habit

499
00:29:12,436 --> 00:29:16,636
Speaker 2: of mind to noticing what's going right actually becomes less

500
00:29:16,636 --> 00:29:20,596
Speaker 2: stressed and they become nicer. That's kind of surprising, but

501
00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:24,116
Speaker 2: you know, when you have that positive habit of mind,

502
00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:27,236
Speaker 2: the world looks a lot kinder and more generous.

503
00:29:27,596 --> 00:29:29,316
Speaker 1: And this is something you've talked about a lot, that

504
00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:31,956
Speaker 1: we really do have much more control over these habits

505
00:29:31,956 --> 00:29:34,476
Speaker 1: of mind than we expect. Right that in some sense,

506
00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:38,276
Speaker 1: this negativity bias not asking these questions in some ways

507
00:29:38,276 --> 00:29:40,996
Speaker 1: there like an active choice, even though we don't realize.

508
00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:42,556
Speaker 2: That's well said.

509
00:29:42,716 --> 00:29:45,396
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, you have to start with intention.

510
00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:49,996
Speaker 3: So is it your intention to make this relationship better?

511
00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:52,516
Speaker 3: You know, in the past, before a lot of this

512
00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:55,556
Speaker 3: research got done, we had no idea of how to

513
00:29:55,596 --> 00:29:59,836
Speaker 3: make relationships better. Did it take more sex, did it

514
00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:03,476
Speaker 3: take better cooking? You know what did it take? But

515
00:30:03,716 --> 00:30:09,036
Speaker 3: now with this research well rounded here and telling us

516
00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:14,956
Speaker 3: what to do, then we have tools. We have alternatives

517
00:30:15,476 --> 00:30:19,356
Speaker 3: as to the good habits to put into place in

518
00:30:19,396 --> 00:30:23,996
Speaker 3: our relationship. And they're really not that hard. Laurie, here's

519
00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:27,316
Speaker 3: how much it takes. Wow, look at that beautiful bird.

520
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:33,236
Speaker 3: Huh nice, That's all it takes. Period, is just a

521
00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:37,596
Speaker 3: couple of little syllables. All of us can do that.

522
00:30:38,316 --> 00:30:43,916
Speaker 3: It's just a matter of our intention, our intention to connect,

523
00:30:44,196 --> 00:30:44,876
Speaker 3: to be loving.

524
00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:48,036
Speaker 2: Can I say something here about this? So you know

525
00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:52,236
Speaker 2: my former graduates the Jennis Driver, discovered that when people

526
00:30:52,276 --> 00:30:56,356
Speaker 2: increase their turning toward, which just takes really an awareness

527
00:30:56,396 --> 00:31:00,396
Speaker 2: of how your partner is reaching out, then what happens

528
00:31:00,516 --> 00:31:04,436
Speaker 2: is when there's conflict, people automatically have a sense of

529
00:31:04,516 --> 00:31:08,156
Speaker 2: humor about themselves. They can laugh at themselves, and being

530
00:31:08,236 --> 00:31:13,476
Speaker 2: able to laugh together when you're disagreeing reduces physiological arounsoal

531
00:31:13,916 --> 00:31:18,356
Speaker 2: it really bonds you even though you're disagreeing on atopic

532
00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:20,196
Speaker 2: so it's very powerful.

533
00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 1: And if it's with this other ratio that you figured out,

534
00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:26,636
Speaker 1: which is that the positivity to negativity ratio overall seems

535
00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:28,956
Speaker 1: to matter, right, so that little infusion of humor can

536
00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:31,396
Speaker 1: be quite powerful. Explain what this ratio is and why

537
00:31:31,436 --> 00:31:33,596
Speaker 1: it's so important for relationship success.

538
00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:37,196
Speaker 2: So, you know, Bob Levinson and I counted in a

539
00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:41,596
Speaker 2: fifteen minute conflict discussion, how many seconds people are kind

540
00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:46,156
Speaker 2: to each other, interested, curious, generous, saying even small things

541
00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:50,756
Speaker 2: like oh yeah, oh wow. You know those kinds of reflections.

542
00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:55,956
Speaker 2: They really lubricate the wheels of conflict so that we

543
00:31:56,156 --> 00:31:59,796
Speaker 2: arrive at more mutual understanding. What was a big surprise

544
00:32:00,036 --> 00:32:04,556
Speaker 2: was that the Masters of relationships during conflict at ratio

545
00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:11,996
Speaker 2: of positive to negative that interested in one another, that excitement, curiosity, agreement,

546
00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:18,476
Speaker 2: understanding was five times as common as negativity in the

547
00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:22,956
Speaker 2: Masters of Relationships, and in couples that were doomed, that

548
00:32:23,116 --> 00:32:25,716
Speaker 2: ratio was zero point eight, just a little bit more

549
00:32:25,756 --> 00:32:29,196
Speaker 2: negativity and positivity. It's very famous in Seattle. I was

550
00:32:29,236 --> 00:32:32,916
Speaker 2: coming out of Starbucks a couple of months ago when

551
00:32:32,916 --> 00:32:35,036
Speaker 2: this sky drone by in his truck and rolled down

552
00:32:35,076 --> 00:32:39,036
Speaker 2: his window and said five to one. Right. You know,

553
00:32:39,716 --> 00:32:41,836
Speaker 2: it's become well known at least in Seattle.

554
00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:46,556
Speaker 1: When John says it out loud, it seems so obvious.

555
00:32:47,276 --> 00:32:51,036
Speaker 1: Happy relationships spring from two people being warmed towards one another,

556
00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,516
Speaker 1: willing to express interest in and concern for their partner

557
00:32:54,676 --> 00:32:57,556
Speaker 1: in far greater proportion than any complaints they might air.

558
00:32:58,316 --> 00:33:01,636
Speaker 1: After the break, we'll hear more advice that again sounds obvious,

559
00:33:01,796 --> 00:33:04,636
Speaker 1: but seems to be followed only by those rare masters

560
00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:08,156
Speaker 1: of relationships. That advice is not to treat your partner

561
00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:11,676
Speaker 1: like a mind reader the happiness lab. We'll be right back.

562
00:33:19,996 --> 00:33:22,356
Speaker 1: Are there things you want from your life, partner? Are

563
00:33:22,356 --> 00:33:25,116
Speaker 1: there issues welling up that bother you or make you unhappy?

564
00:33:25,516 --> 00:33:28,436
Speaker 1: Have you expressed these thoughts openly to your partner? Or

565
00:33:28,436 --> 00:33:31,156
Speaker 1: are you storing these problems away as resentments that are

566
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:34,356
Speaker 1: slowly building up over time? When you say it out loud,

567
00:33:34,516 --> 00:33:37,116
Speaker 1: it sounds like such a stupid strategy, but it's also

568
00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:40,156
Speaker 1: one a lot of us follow. And doctor Julie Schwartz

569
00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:41,436
Speaker 1: Scotman has a theory.

570
00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,996
Speaker 3: Why let me just say first give it some context

571
00:33:45,236 --> 00:33:48,236
Speaker 3: that in this country, at least, we have grown up

572
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:53,076
Speaker 3: with the value of your weak When you need somebody else,

573
00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:57,636
Speaker 3: it's not okay to have needs, women especially are called

574
00:33:57,916 --> 00:34:02,036
Speaker 3: too needy. And you know, here's the basic truth. The

575
00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:05,956
Speaker 3: truth is that human beings are pack animals. We are

576
00:34:06,076 --> 00:34:11,236
Speaker 3: pack animals. We don't survive without our tribe or are

577
00:34:11,396 --> 00:34:15,156
Speaker 3: intimates who are really there for us. It's the lone

578
00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:19,396
Speaker 3: wolf versus the wolf pack, right, Well, we're very similar

579
00:34:19,436 --> 00:34:23,796
Speaker 3: to that. So what does that mean. It means we

580
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:27,636
Speaker 3: need to connect. We need to connect all the time.

581
00:34:28,116 --> 00:34:34,836
Speaker 3: So when people feel terrible about expressing their needs, they

582
00:34:34,836 --> 00:34:38,116
Speaker 3: can go two ways. Either they expect their partner to

583
00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:41,876
Speaker 3: read their minds and then out of nowhere, the partner

584
00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:45,916
Speaker 3: is hearing. Why didn't you actually see that I was

585
00:34:45,956 --> 00:34:49,276
Speaker 3: sick and bring me tea? Why didn't you do that? Well,

586
00:34:50,116 --> 00:34:53,076
Speaker 3: the partner number one didn't know that this first person

587
00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:56,036
Speaker 3: was sick, didn't know they liked tea when they were sick,

588
00:34:56,116 --> 00:34:59,036
Speaker 3: et cetera. How would they know the other person is

589
00:34:59,116 --> 00:35:03,836
Speaker 3: not saying what they need? Right, So those needs can

590
00:35:03,876 --> 00:35:09,036
Speaker 3: stack up over time and create huge amounts of resentment

591
00:35:09,756 --> 00:35:13,636
Speaker 3: and anger that the other person is not there for them.

592
00:35:14,196 --> 00:35:16,396
Speaker 3: But the fact of the matter is, how would the

593
00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:20,596
Speaker 3: other know how to be there for the first person

594
00:35:20,716 --> 00:35:24,916
Speaker 3: when the needs are not being expressed. So it's incredibly

595
00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:31,956
Speaker 3: important for people to realize that interdependency is what creates

596
00:35:32,116 --> 00:35:38,836
Speaker 3: a strength in a relationship. An interdependency is created by

597
00:35:39,636 --> 00:35:44,236
Speaker 3: saying what you need in a positive way, saying how

598
00:35:44,316 --> 00:35:49,036
Speaker 3: your partner can shine for you, and then hopefully your

599
00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:53,116
Speaker 3: partner responds in that way, which is really fulfilling for

600
00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:58,156
Speaker 3: you and fulfilling for them because it makes them feel

601
00:35:58,356 --> 00:36:02,476
Speaker 3: valued and trusted that you're expressing a need to them.

602
00:36:02,676 --> 00:36:07,236
Speaker 3: They're the chosen one that you are trusting. And let

603
00:36:07,276 --> 00:36:09,316
Speaker 3: me say something else, Lorill.

604
00:36:09,356 --> 00:36:12,796
Speaker 2: We've been talking about asking open ended questions and now

605
00:36:12,836 --> 00:36:16,436
Speaker 2: we're talking about expressing needs. So if your listeners go

606
00:36:16,556 --> 00:36:20,396
Speaker 2: to the app store and type in Gotman card Decks,

607
00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:25,356
Speaker 2: they can download a free app that has expressing needs

608
00:36:25,476 --> 00:36:28,836
Speaker 2: cards that they can go through once a week, you know,

609
00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:30,796
Speaker 2: for a half an hour and say, well, here's what

610
00:36:30,916 --> 00:36:33,876
Speaker 2: I need from you. This lead to feel loved, and

611
00:36:33,916 --> 00:36:36,716
Speaker 2: they can have a card deck that has all these

612
00:36:36,756 --> 00:36:39,956
Speaker 2: open ended questions on it that they can use. We

613
00:36:40,036 --> 00:36:42,796
Speaker 2: use these card decks all the time and they've been

614
00:36:42,916 --> 00:36:47,316
Speaker 2: downloaded about three hundred and fifty thousand times, so they're

615
00:36:47,356 --> 00:36:48,316
Speaker 2: available for free.

616
00:36:48,516 --> 00:36:50,596
Speaker 1: And I think that you know having like a little

617
00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:52,516
Speaker 1: bit of help when you're asking for what you need

618
00:36:52,516 --> 00:36:54,756
Speaker 1: can be really important because I know, you know, maybe

619
00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:57,436
Speaker 1: this is just in my own life that you know, Julie,

620
00:36:57,436 --> 00:36:59,836
Speaker 1: you mentioned that we need to ask with positivity, but

621
00:36:59,876 --> 00:37:02,636
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you're feeling really resentful, that can

622
00:37:02,676 --> 00:37:05,236
Speaker 1: be hard. And sometimes when you finally go about asking

623
00:37:05,276 --> 00:37:08,076
Speaker 1: for help, it can come off sounding like a criticism.

624
00:37:08,196 --> 00:37:10,276
Speaker 1: It can sell it off like you didn't empty the

625
00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,356
Speaker 1: dishwasher and I needed that. Talk about maybe a healthier

626
00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:15,556
Speaker 1: way to go about asking for those needs and like

627
00:37:15,636 --> 00:37:17,436
Speaker 1: the steps that we need to get in there to

628
00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:18,316
Speaker 1: do it effectively.

629
00:37:18,716 --> 00:37:21,236
Speaker 3: First of all, let me just insert a little piece

630
00:37:21,236 --> 00:37:26,316
Speaker 3: of research here. What John and Bob and other colleagues

631
00:37:26,436 --> 00:37:30,716
Speaker 3: found is that the first three minutes of a conflict

632
00:37:30,716 --> 00:37:35,236
Speaker 3: conversation when you're bringing up your complaints not only predicts

633
00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:38,476
Speaker 3: how the rest of the conversation will go that first

634
00:37:38,516 --> 00:37:42,596
Speaker 3: three minutes, it also predicts how well the relationship is

635
00:37:42,636 --> 00:37:45,836
Speaker 3: going to go six years down the road, with over

636
00:37:45,996 --> 00:37:50,996
Speaker 3: ninety percent accuracy. So how we bring up our complaint

637
00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:55,676
Speaker 3: is absolutely crucial. We found that successful couples had a

638
00:37:55,676 --> 00:37:59,956
Speaker 3: formula for this, which we really try to practice and

639
00:38:00,036 --> 00:38:05,396
Speaker 3: to teach others to practice. Number one, say what you feel.

640
00:38:05,476 --> 00:38:10,836
Speaker 3: You're describing yourself, so you're saying things like I feel angry,

641
00:38:11,316 --> 00:38:16,436
Speaker 3: I feel resentful, I feel frustrated. You can't sabotage it

642
00:38:16,516 --> 00:38:19,316
Speaker 3: and say I feel that you are an idiot. No,

643
00:38:19,556 --> 00:38:21,716
Speaker 3: it's not gonna work, or I feel like you're such

644
00:38:21,716 --> 00:38:25,036
Speaker 3: a schmuck. That's not going to work. Right, So it

645
00:38:25,076 --> 00:38:29,076
Speaker 3: has to be a real emotion. I feel stressed, I

646
00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:35,156
Speaker 3: feel disappointed. Then step two about what now. Notice that's

647
00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:38,476
Speaker 3: not about who about your partner and how rotten they are.

648
00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:42,476
Speaker 3: It's about the situation. So it's going to sound like

649
00:38:43,196 --> 00:38:47,436
Speaker 3: I feel upset that there's a new dent in the car.

650
00:38:48,036 --> 00:38:52,916
Speaker 3: That's the situation. I feel angry that. Here's the situation.

651
00:38:53,436 --> 00:38:58,476
Speaker 3: The bills haven't been paid, I'm sick and tired of

652
00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:05,116
Speaker 3: cooking dinner every night, etc. So you're describing the situation

653
00:39:05,236 --> 00:39:08,876
Speaker 3: and you're feeling about it. Then the all important step three,

654
00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:12,796
Speaker 3: you say what your positive need is, and let me

655
00:39:12,876 --> 00:39:19,116
Speaker 3: distinguish positive from negative. Negative need means what you don't

656
00:39:19,316 --> 00:39:24,596
Speaker 3: want your partner to do. Positive need means what you

657
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:27,836
Speaker 3: do want your partner to do. So, if you have

658
00:39:27,916 --> 00:39:31,276
Speaker 3: a negative need, like stop leaving the kitchen a mess.

659
00:39:31,996 --> 00:39:36,476
Speaker 3: That's a negative. Flip it on its head and think, Okay,

660
00:39:36,636 --> 00:39:39,076
Speaker 3: what would be the opposite of this that I would

661
00:39:39,076 --> 00:39:44,036
Speaker 3: really like? I wish you would clean up the kitchen nightly.

662
00:39:44,476 --> 00:39:48,156
Speaker 3: That would be such a help. And that positive need

663
00:39:48,836 --> 00:39:53,316
Speaker 3: opens up your partner so much more than your partner

664
00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:57,116
Speaker 3: hearing a criticism, which feels like a put down, which

665
00:39:57,196 --> 00:40:00,196
Speaker 3: makes them want to withdraw and pull away or get defensive.

666
00:40:00,836 --> 00:40:03,476
Speaker 1: It's such a powerful strategy because when you say what

667
00:40:03,516 --> 00:40:07,596
Speaker 1: you're healing about what situation, and then stay to positive need.

668
00:40:07,756 --> 00:40:10,236
Speaker 1: Nowhere in there is a critique of your partner, right,

669
00:40:10,316 --> 00:40:12,636
Speaker 1: Like you haven't said because you did this bad thing.

670
00:40:12,676 --> 00:40:14,996
Speaker 1: There's no kind of causal thing that your partner did wrong.

671
00:40:15,036 --> 00:40:16,956
Speaker 1: And that must mean that like people just don't get

672
00:40:16,996 --> 00:40:19,716
Speaker 1: as offended. Right, everybody's on board with trying to help it.

673
00:40:19,796 --> 00:40:22,396
Speaker 1: Lets your partner be a help rather than a hindrance

674
00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:23,796
Speaker 1: in this really important.

675
00:40:23,356 --> 00:40:28,556
Speaker 3: Way, beautifully said, that's exactly right, that's exactly right. Yes,

676
00:40:28,716 --> 00:40:32,956
Speaker 3: So you're really telling your partner I love you, I

677
00:40:32,996 --> 00:40:36,556
Speaker 3: know you can be there for me, and if you

678
00:40:36,596 --> 00:40:39,436
Speaker 3: would be there for me in this particular way, it

679
00:40:39,476 --> 00:40:40,796
Speaker 3: would make me so happy.

680
00:40:41,076 --> 00:40:43,756
Speaker 1: Have you all harnessed this kind of strategy for talking

681
00:40:43,796 --> 00:40:47,596
Speaker 1: about your own unmet needs and your relationship? Any good examples?

682
00:40:48,916 --> 00:40:54,676
Speaker 3: Yeah? I would say the books. Probably the books, right, okay?

683
00:40:55,036 --> 00:41:01,996
Speaker 3: So John is an avid book collector, which means probably

684
00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:07,396
Speaker 3: once a week we get seven books a week, maybe

685
00:41:07,716 --> 00:41:11,156
Speaker 3: something like that. We're getting books all the time. We

686
00:41:11,236 --> 00:41:15,756
Speaker 3: don't have bookshelf space for seven books a week, because

687
00:41:15,996 --> 00:41:18,036
Speaker 3: add it up, that's almost thirty.

688
00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:19,676
Speaker 2: Books a month. Where are you going to put them?

689
00:41:20,076 --> 00:41:24,156
Speaker 3: So they end up being on the stairs, in the

690
00:41:24,196 --> 00:41:27,836
Speaker 3: front entryway, on the dining room table, on the kitchen island,

691
00:41:28,196 --> 00:41:30,276
Speaker 3: you know, everywhere, on her side of the bed, on

692
00:41:30,316 --> 00:41:32,036
Speaker 3: my side of the bed, and on.

693
00:41:31,996 --> 00:41:32,836
Speaker 2: His side of the bed.

694
00:41:32,876 --> 00:41:35,396
Speaker 3: There's such a big pile that I risk breaking my

695
00:41:35,596 --> 00:41:38,516
Speaker 3: neck to bend over the books to make the bed.

696
00:41:38,996 --> 00:41:43,196
Speaker 3: So it's a danger to my life. And so what

697
00:41:43,236 --> 00:41:44,036
Speaker 3: I have to.

698
00:41:43,996 --> 00:41:45,276
Speaker 2: Do is.

699
00:41:46,716 --> 00:41:50,236
Speaker 3: I know this is his personality and lifestyle preference, right,

700
00:41:50,596 --> 00:41:53,876
Speaker 3: very different than mine. Okay, So it doesn't make him

701
00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:57,596
Speaker 3: a bad person, just makes him different than me, right,

702
00:41:57,756 --> 00:42:03,316
Speaker 3: with just different priorities. And so I'll say, honey, would

703
00:42:03,316 --> 00:42:06,476
Speaker 3: you please clean up the books? And he may pay

704
00:42:06,476 --> 00:42:07,516
Speaker 3: attention or he may not.

705
00:42:07,956 --> 00:42:08,596
Speaker 2: We too.

706
00:42:09,356 --> 00:42:13,676
Speaker 3: I'll say, sweetie, those books are becoming a danger to me.

707
00:42:14,116 --> 00:42:17,596
Speaker 3: Would you please clean up the books. I'm afraid I'm

708
00:42:17,596 --> 00:42:20,596
Speaker 3: going to trip on them going down the stairs. See

709
00:42:20,596 --> 00:42:26,356
Speaker 3: there's no criticism in there. Okay, Week three, I'm going honey,

710
00:42:26,756 --> 00:42:30,516
Speaker 3: you know, the voice tone has changed and I'm saying, honey,

711
00:42:31,116 --> 00:42:33,236
Speaker 3: I'm at risk for breaking my neck. And you don't

712
00:42:33,236 --> 00:42:36,596
Speaker 3: want a dead wire, right, No you don't, So please

713
00:42:36,756 --> 00:42:40,076
Speaker 3: please please clean up the books. I beg you, this

714
00:42:40,116 --> 00:42:43,996
Speaker 3: is a warning. So and then he finally does it,

715
00:42:44,476 --> 00:42:46,636
Speaker 3: and the books are all cleaned away, and then it

716
00:42:46,676 --> 00:42:52,996
Speaker 3: starts to build again. So we have this coverstage periodically

717
00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:55,716
Speaker 3: once a long, i'd say regularly.

718
00:42:56,076 --> 00:42:57,796
Speaker 1: But it's good that you've been able to figure out

719
00:42:57,796 --> 00:42:59,916
Speaker 1: a way to do it. That's not, you know, attacking

720
00:42:59,956 --> 00:43:02,516
Speaker 1: the person's personality, like why are you this kind of

721
00:43:02,516 --> 00:43:05,036
Speaker 1: person who you know collects all these books. It's really

722
00:43:05,476 --> 00:43:07,916
Speaker 1: doing it in a way that's expressing what your needs

723
00:43:07,916 --> 00:43:10,116
Speaker 1: are and kind of giving a clear path. The helping too,

724
00:43:10,156 --> 00:43:11,476
Speaker 1: which I love so right.

725
00:43:11,956 --> 00:43:15,316
Speaker 3: You know the other thing too that people forget glory

726
00:43:15,676 --> 00:43:18,236
Speaker 3: is that we have to be humble. We have to

727
00:43:18,396 --> 00:43:22,956
Speaker 3: realize that. Okay, we're asking our partner to be perfect, right,

728
00:43:23,476 --> 00:43:24,516
Speaker 3: are we perfect?

729
00:43:25,116 --> 00:43:25,596
Speaker 2: No way?

730
00:43:25,956 --> 00:43:29,716
Speaker 3: I drive John crazy with would you please clean this up?

731
00:43:29,756 --> 00:43:30,636
Speaker 3: Will you please clean?

732
00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:32,796
Speaker 2: I don't want to. I just want to sit and

733
00:43:32,836 --> 00:43:33,516
Speaker 2: read my book.

734
00:43:33,876 --> 00:43:39,236
Speaker 3: I'm driving him nuts with my need for tidiness, right,

735
00:43:39,876 --> 00:43:45,076
Speaker 3: So he's tolerating that in me and being patient and

736
00:43:45,556 --> 00:43:51,796
Speaker 3: eventually supportive putting away the books. So I'm no perfect

737
00:43:52,156 --> 00:43:56,876
Speaker 3: icon either here. I can get grouchy, I can, you know,

738
00:43:56,956 --> 00:43:59,276
Speaker 3: go a little nuts with all the books all over

739
00:43:59,276 --> 00:44:04,716
Speaker 3: the place. He has to tolerate that, right, the same

740
00:44:04,756 --> 00:44:08,036
Speaker 3: way I tolerate the difference in how he treats space.

741
00:44:08,636 --> 00:44:12,516
Speaker 3: So okay, I have to be humble about you know,

742
00:44:12,676 --> 00:44:15,316
Speaker 3: my flaws, my faults, and of course you know that

743
00:44:15,436 --> 00:44:19,236
Speaker 3: message is throughout most of our religious texts. You know,

744
00:44:19,356 --> 00:44:22,676
Speaker 3: whatever religion you're in, you know, look at yourself before

745
00:44:22,676 --> 00:44:26,596
Speaker 3: you start criticizing your partner. So I really tried to

746
00:44:26,756 --> 00:44:28,356
Speaker 3: hone that to a fine heart.

747
00:44:29,556 --> 00:44:30,476
Speaker 2: How you do a good job.

748
00:44:30,836 --> 00:44:34,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, as well as being wise, the Gautmans are just

749
00:44:34,956 --> 00:44:37,276
Speaker 1: a super fun couple to hang out with. And so

750
00:44:37,316 --> 00:44:39,436
Speaker 1: you'll be glad to hear that we've only just scratched

751
00:44:39,476 --> 00:44:41,636
Speaker 1: the surface. Of the advice that they have to share.

752
00:44:42,076 --> 00:44:44,596
Speaker 1: In the second part of our conversation, they'll let me

753
00:44:44,636 --> 00:44:46,716
Speaker 1: in on some secrets for dealing with one of the

754
00:44:46,756 --> 00:44:50,156
Speaker 1: most upsetting and destabilizing aspects of being in love, the

755
00:44:50,236 --> 00:44:51,676
Speaker 1: inevitable disagreements.

756
00:44:52,196 --> 00:44:55,036
Speaker 2: I turned the phone off, but they didn't turn it off.

757
00:44:55,356 --> 00:44:59,156
Speaker 1: I yeah, not seeing I die with your partner is

758
00:44:59,196 --> 00:45:00,116
Speaker 1: perfectly natural.

759
00:45:00,556 --> 00:45:03,436
Speaker 3: I'm really sick and tired of the laundry being all

760
00:45:03,436 --> 00:45:04,196
Speaker 3: over the floor.

761
00:45:04,356 --> 00:45:07,396
Speaker 1: Disagreements shouldn't be swept under the rug tofest, but they

762
00:45:07,396 --> 00:45:09,436
Speaker 1: also shouldn't generate hostility either.

763
00:45:09,636 --> 00:45:12,996
Speaker 3: I'm just second tired of the stupid, stupid laundry.

764
00:45:13,156 --> 00:45:15,476
Speaker 1: The good news, says the Goatmans, is that there is

765
00:45:15,516 --> 00:45:17,676
Speaker 1: a way that we can all learn to argue better.

766
00:45:17,956 --> 00:45:20,876
Speaker 3: The laundry is on the floor. I really don't like

767
00:45:20,996 --> 00:45:24,756
Speaker 3: seeing it. Would you please clean it up before we

768
00:45:24,836 --> 00:45:25,316
Speaker 3: got dinner.

769
00:45:26,276 --> 00:45:29,036
Speaker 1: That's coming up next time on the Happiness Lab with me,

770
00:45:29,316 --> 00:45:30,476
Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Sandos