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Speaker 1: Quody diners, but Joseph's gotten more. I can't really speak

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Speaker 1: for little girls, but for little boys. Having formerly been

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Speaker 1: a little boy, one of the coolest things I used

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Speaker 1: to like to do is to build a fort. And

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Speaker 1: it could either be a fort outdoors or if you

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Speaker 1: had a few dining room table chairs in my case

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Speaker 1: that my granny would let me use. All it took

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Speaker 1: was to take those chairs to a special area of

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Speaker 1: the house and throw a blanket over them. That's a

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Speaker 1: rudimentary for it. And you can have all kinds of

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Speaker 1: going on in your mind. You can be under attack,

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Speaker 1: you can set up defensive positions, or you can just

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Speaker 1: sit there and be in that space when all hell

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Speaker 1: was breaking loose in your family and you just want

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Speaker 1: a quiet, quiet place to escape to. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about case. Actually it's a disservice to say that.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about two cases, both connected both

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Speaker 1: in life and in death and in blood. Today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about two little kids that were found

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Speaker 1: hanging in their mother's basement. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Bags today. There's one location I lived

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Speaker 1: in when I was nine ten and I for those

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Speaker 1: of you that have, you know, know something about my background,

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Speaker 1: family history. I'd love to escape. I love doing two things.

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Speaker 1: I love to escape into books, which I spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time doing. And I love to go out

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Speaker 1: to the woods and there's a peace that exists there.

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Speaker 1: But you know, for some you know, for some kids,

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Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with a basement, but I've often

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Speaker 1: imagined if you could get away, you would want to

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Speaker 1: go to a basement, perhaps some quiet, dark area where

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Speaker 1: you could, you know, pretend that the rest of the

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Speaker 1: world is not happening. If you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: that you freeze that moment time you're seeking that place

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Speaker 1: of peace. And in today's cases, and Dave, I want

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Speaker 1: you to admonish me if I if I say that

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Speaker 1: in singular these are cases it's not just a singular death.

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Speaker 1: We've got two precious little babies that have have died,

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Speaker 1: and they have died. We'll go ahead and tell you

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Speaker 1: right now, they have died at the hand of their

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Speaker 1: convicted mother. Now, and this this is I have to admit,

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Speaker 1: this case was not on my radar, and it popped up.

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Speaker 1: And I think you and I have some pretty strong

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Speaker 1: feelings about this going forward.

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Speaker 2: When it happened September of twenty nineteen. It happened on

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Speaker 2: my oldest son's birthday, September twenty third, twenty nineteen. And

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Speaker 2: I remember the case when it happened because it was horrific.

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Speaker 2: But even from the very beginning, when you hear a

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Speaker 2: story and the headline is two children eight and four

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Speaker 2: found unconscious in their basement, trying to remember the actual

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Speaker 2: phraseology that was used because the children were found hanging

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Speaker 2: in the basement, and the immediate impact that is what

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Speaker 2: happened before that led up to this, was no one

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Speaker 2: paying attention. Was this an older child that killed a

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Speaker 2: younger child and then tried to kill himself. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are so many different things to take off with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you hear, particularly mental health professionals, and

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Speaker 1: they talk in these very clinical terms about the taking

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Speaker 1: of one's own life, there's two there's two kind of

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Speaker 1: markers that you look for and you listen to. And

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Speaker 1: I've had to listen to a lot of psychiatrists and

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Speaker 1: psychologists over the and social workers of the course of

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Speaker 1: my career when I was investigating suicides. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that we don't give as much attention

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Speaker 1: to homicides we do, but with a suicide in my

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Speaker 1: world of the medical legal world, we're kind of the

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Speaker 1: we're the lead detectives where the lead investigators in those

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Speaker 1: because there's nothing to prosecute, So you have to go

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Speaker 1: back and talk to all of those that are in

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Speaker 1: inner circle. So these terms, these markers that you hear about,

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Speaker 1: and this goes to what you just revealed, is the

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Speaker 1: idea of They'll ask suicidal ideation, does that exist? That

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Speaker 1: is the individual thinking about it? Okay? And then they'll

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Speaker 1: say suicidal ideation with vocalization. So there's kind of this

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Speaker 1: gulf that apparently takes place in the brain where you've

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Speaker 1: got an individual that's been thinking about it, but now

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Speaker 1: they say it. And that's like this kind of threshold

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Speaker 1: that they cross over and you get beyond the saying

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Speaker 1: and they begin It's one thing for somebody to say

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like going on. It's another thing for

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Speaker 1: somebody to say, I don't feel like going on, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do X and X in order to

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Speaker 1: facilitate that. That takes it to another level beyond that,

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Speaker 1: and so you have to assess these cases when you're

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Speaker 1: going out, and you know the underlying theme and I

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Speaker 1: know I've talked to you about this over our time together, Dave,

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Speaker 1: is that every death, every death is a homicide until

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Speaker 1: proven otherwise. And so we're gonna when you have a suicide,

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Speaker 1: I want to and you're being presented with this. If

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Speaker 1: I lived in a perfect world and I'm an investigator,

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Speaker 1: I'm showing up. I don't want the police, I don't

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Speaker 1: want a crime scene tech. I don't want even the

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Speaker 1: nine to one one operator that's dispatching me to a scene.

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Speaker 1: I would rather than just say it's a death, don't

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Speaker 1: tell me that it's a suicide, because just say a suicide,

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Speaker 1: you're assuming something and you do that at your own peril.

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Speaker 1: I've actually had that happen to me where I just

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Speaker 1: assumed that something was a suicide and it turned out

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Speaker 1: to be different. And from an investigative standpoint, that your

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Speaker 1: achilles heel, because there are certain things you have to

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Speaker 1: do in homicides you're not necessarily going to do in

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Speaker 1: suicide investigation. So your vision is colored automatically, you know,

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Speaker 1: the way your brain is wired. I'm working this as suicide.

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Speaker 1: I'm working this as suicide. Along could be something else,

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Speaker 1: and how much more so with a double hanging, which

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Speaker 1: is something that is so beyond the pale of my experience.

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about everybody else. You can go out

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Speaker 1: there and you can find these outlier cases, and I

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Speaker 1: know that they exist. But from my experience, have ever

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Speaker 1: had murder suicides? Yeah? Oh yeah, they occur regularly. We'll

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Speaker 1: hear about them in the news. Interestingly enough, when you

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Speaker 1: hear about somebody that goes in and you know, like

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Speaker 1: kills their whole family and then kills themself, isn't it

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Speaker 1: interesting how it only makes it through like one news

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Speaker 1: cycle essentially. And these are big, big deals, you know,

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Speaker 1: in that whatever jurisdiction is, you've got multiple deaths in

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Speaker 1: one location, so you it's really easy, I think for

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Speaker 1: some people intellectually to brush things off. But I always

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Speaker 1: feel like that there's a suspect, and that's I'm jaded

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Speaker 1: and hardened to this. I always assume as an investigator

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Speaker 1: that people are lying to me, and that what I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to allow my lying eyes to dictate to me.

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Speaker 1: You know, perception is one thing, but can I prove

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Speaker 1: it scientifically? Back to the bigger question, have I ever

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Speaker 1: had kids in my experience as a medical legal death

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Speaker 1: investigator at this age we're talking eight and four. No,

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Speaker 1: I have not. I have not had these kinds of

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Speaker 1: events that have occurred in my experience where I've had

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Speaker 1: a child that has committed suicide and certainly not some

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Speaker 1: kind of double event that that's so off the beam,

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Speaker 1: if you will, uh, this is you know, if this

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Speaker 1: were a real thing. Okay, if it were real, this

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Speaker 1: is the kind These are the kind of cases, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that people that do research on they would write papers

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Speaker 1: about this. Okay, a double suicide of an eight and

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Speaker 1: a four year old. Just let that seep down into

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Speaker 1: your groundwater just for a second and begin to think

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Speaker 1: about that. What what are the odds you're going to

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Speaker 1: have two kids that are going to simultaneously make a

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Speaker 1: decision like that and in their lives and so and listen,

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Speaker 1: this is not like we're not talking, Dave, about a firearm.

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Speaker 1: Who you know, we have to say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: eight and four year old are going to be able

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Speaker 1: to wield a weapon. Now, have I ever worked accidental

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Speaker 1: shootings with kids? Yes, yes, that's a thing. It happens

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Speaker 1: with some frequency. Okay, but we're talking about something that's

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Speaker 1: really complex here, Dave. We're talking about with hangings. You

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Speaker 1: have to first off identify a ligature, a suitable literature.

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Speaker 1: Then you have to calculate is this going to be

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Speaker 1: sufficient to the task at hand, Like, if I'm looking

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Speaker 1: to take my life, all right, where do I tie

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Speaker 1: it off? How do I secure the knot where I'm

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Speaker 1: anchoring the thing? Then how do I tie a noose,

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Speaker 1: which to this day I've tried to understand. I remember

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Speaker 1: there was a case many years ago where I had

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Speaker 1: a guy that had tied an authentic hangman's news. You

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Speaker 1: generally don't see those, okay, where it's actually wrapped around

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Speaker 1: thirteen times. Took a piece of rope and tried to

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Speaker 1: do that, and it's I'm not I'm not a navy guy,

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Speaker 1: so I don't I don't do well with knots, and

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Speaker 1: I couldn't duplicate it. It's something that has to be practiced.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's what happened here, but you have

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Speaker 1: to be able to understand form and function. And this

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Speaker 1: is really higher level thinking. When you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about it, are considerate. You know, you're talking about placing

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Speaker 1: a noose around your neck. Oh, and here's the other thing.

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Speaker 1: How are you going to get up high enough to

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Speaker 1: do it?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Well, we have to find a couple of chairs. That

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Speaker 1: we're talking about an eight and a four year old.

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Speaker 1: And you and I we're both daddies and granddaddies. We

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Speaker 1: know what a distinct difference in height exists between an

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Speaker 1: eight and a four year old, particularly between a little

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Speaker 1: boy and a little girl. How are we going to

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Speaker 1: be able to assess that at this at this age

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Speaker 1: so automatically, automatically, bells and whistles are going off in

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Speaker 1: my brain and think the Lord above, all right, thank

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Speaker 1: the Lord above that in this case, these authorities that

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Speaker 1: were out on the scene, Boba, they were like, something

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Speaker 1: stinks in the state of Denmark here, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's something smells bad about this case. This is not

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Speaker 1: this is not as one of the friends of pathologists

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Speaker 1: I used to work with he said this all the time,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of stuck in my lex County says,

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Speaker 1: this is not as as advertised. And so that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're telling me that it's a suicide. All right, you're

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Speaker 1: telling me it's suicide. Ain't buying it. I'm just not

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Speaker 1: buying David, you got me fired up with this case.

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Speaker 1: You know I can't. It's so it's so bizarre. I

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Speaker 1: really need you to rain me in, draw me back down.

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Speaker 2: To actually get excited about doing it.

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Speaker 1: Joe, Well, it's just it, and it gets me. I'll

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Speaker 1: get up on a soapbox. And also, just please bring

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Speaker 1: me back to reality here, and let's orient everybody as

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Speaker 1: to what's going on here.

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Speaker 2: We're starting with the nine one one call. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of information that gets packed in at the beginning

199
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Speaker 2: when you have in this case, mom calls nine one

200
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Speaker 2: one and says, I found my children downstairs in the

201
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Speaker 2: basement hanging, and there are several things that didn't take

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Speaker 2: place after that that really bother me. And I need

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Speaker 2: your first hand take on this for me personally, Joe,

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to assume that others need the same thing,

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Speaker 2: because from that nine to one one call and from

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Speaker 2: what we learned after the fact is that when EMTs arrived,

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Speaker 2: these children were still hanging. And yeah, all I could

208
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Speaker 2: think of is my first reaction would be if I

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Speaker 2: were to come downstairs and see not one child, but

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Speaker 2: two small children and an eight year old and a

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Speaker 2: four year old hanging. My first thought would be to

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Speaker 2: cut them down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it would be. And I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: I don't give two hoots in hell about how fragile

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Speaker 1: you are as a mama. Okay, just let me lay

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Speaker 1: that groundwork. These are your babies. They're suspended in the air.

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Speaker 1: Why is it that you are not moving Heaven and

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Speaker 1: Hell to get over there to release this pressure from

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Speaker 1: their neck.

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Speaker 2: And they would still be warm.

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Speaker 1: Oh, let me tell you something. Not only would they

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Speaker 1: still be warm, but these kids lived three days afterwards, David,

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Speaker 1: they were still alive.

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Speaker 2: You have evidence or first hand accounts from the EMTs

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Speaker 2: that arrived who could describe the scene as they see

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Speaker 2: it as opposed to what they would have seen. If

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Speaker 2: it had been me, they would have come into a

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Speaker 2: train wreck. I would have had both children on the

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Speaker 2: ground trying to do whatever I could, because that's what

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Speaker 2: everybody I know in my entire life would have done. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but that that didn't happen here. And so my multi

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Speaker 2: prompted question for you is one, have you ever had

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Speaker 2: a child commit suicide that you had to work and

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Speaker 2: child I'm talking under ten? Have you ever had a

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Speaker 2: child hanging? And have you ever ever heard of somebody

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Speaker 2: finding a child in this situation and not taking them down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me break this down. So in answer to

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Speaker 1: the question part A, I have never worked me personally,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I have colleagues out there that have. I've

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Speaker 1: never worked a case involving a child ten and under

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Speaker 1: that committed suicide. I know that they exist. I know

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Speaker 1: that they've happened. It hasn't happened in my world, all right.

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Speaker 1: Number two children hanging, Yes, I have, and probably two

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Speaker 1: of the most tragic cases I've ever had, and they

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Speaker 1: still haunt me to this day. I had I think

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Speaker 1: this child was eleven, and this was in Atlanta. His

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Speaker 1: mom was cracked out. He was left in charge of

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Speaker 1: all of his siblings, and it was right after one

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Speaker 1: of the Batman movies had come out, and he they

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Speaker 1: had no television. This was in the winter time. There

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Speaker 1: was no heat in the house. I'll never forget this

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Speaker 1: as long as I lived. This child would he had

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Speaker 1: an old jump rope, you know, the cloth kind of

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Speaker 1: rope thing. They're real inexpensive, And what he would do

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Speaker 1: was they had this house was really old and I

256
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Speaker 1: had huge closets, and he would tie off the jump rope,

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Speaker 1: and he would put on his batman mask and make

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Speaker 1: a cape out of a towel, and he would swing

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Speaker 1: from inside of the closet on the outside and bounce

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Speaker 1: back and forth, and he would have all the little

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Speaker 1: kids on the floor watching him, and he'd entertain them. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well he did this and he got twisted in that

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Speaker 1: in that rope and suspend the suspension, hanging with this thing,

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Speaker 1: and he died in front of his little siblings. And

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Speaker 1: the mother was out walking the stroll and this lady

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Speaker 1: that lived down the street heard a child crying in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the street. And the child is only

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Speaker 1: wearing a diaper, and memory fails me. I think this

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Speaker 1: was like in February in Atlanta day, which is rather cool.

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Speaker 1: This baby is walking down the street crying, and this

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Speaker 1: little old lady comes out and she knew about the house.

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Speaker 1: She knew, you know, bad things were going on. And

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Speaker 1: she finds this little precious child walking down the road.

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Speaker 1: She goes and scoops her up and little babies crying,

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Speaker 1: and she goes in the house and finds the other

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Speaker 1: kids in total you know, they're in total disarray, and

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Speaker 1: this child is hanging. That was the first one that

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Speaker 1: comes to mind. Second one, I had a child that

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Speaker 1: I actually assisted on the autopsy on. I didn't work

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Speaker 1: the scene, but one of my colleagues did. And this

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Speaker 1: was a kid that was on top of a tire swing.

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Speaker 1: And you know how kids will get on top of

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Speaker 1: a tire swing, put their feet on the tire and

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Speaker 1: then swing back and forth and kind of do you know,

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Speaker 1: move gyrate the rope and it and his mother drove

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Speaker 1: up and it had wrapped. He had slipped off and

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Speaker 1: the tire had pendulumed around his body and he hung

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Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, those happened, But Dave, those are

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Speaker 1: extreme cases where these are accidental events that occur. I've

290
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Speaker 1: had adults that have accidentally hung themselves and that's you know,

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Speaker 1: and that that happens, you know, I mean, it truly does.

292
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Speaker 1: And generally they get twisted up in cord somehow, or

293
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Speaker 1: it's just blind fate you know, that creates these things.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what we're talking about here, Dave. These

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Speaker 1: these two babies, the children by the way of Lisa Snyder,

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Speaker 1: were found hanging by dog leads in the basement, which

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Speaker 1: for me is you know, dog leads are generally I

298
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 1: found and she purchased these I think from Walmart if

299
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Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, or had purchased them online.

300
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Speaker 2: She ordered them the day before and take them up

301
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Speaker 2: in the morning of Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And these things are generally you can get them in

303
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Speaker 1: a variety at a time. If you think about a

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Speaker 1: central cable that runs through it's kind of like, you know,

305
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Speaker 1: a twisted wire of a certain gauge. The lower the

306
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,719
Speaker 1: number of the gauge, the bigger in diameter or something is.

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Speaker 1: It's counterintuitive many times anyway. And they're coated with rubber

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Speaker 1: or some kind of rubber eyes plastic, you know that

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Speaker 1: kind of it is like almost like a conduit, you

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Speaker 1: know that that that you know contains these things. But

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Speaker 1: she had bought these things, and these have been used

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Speaker 1: in order to facilitate the hanging of both of these children.

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Speaker 2: Dave Joe. When looking at a case like this where

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Speaker 2: you have two people dead from hanging, and in this scenario,

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Speaker 2: eight year old and four year old, when mom calls police,

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Speaker 2: calls nine one one and describes it. She went upstairs

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Speaker 2: to call nine one one. The hanging stick place in

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Speaker 2: the basement. She never returned back downstairs. She calls nine

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Speaker 2: one one and never goes back down. Now, would this

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Speaker 2: be a tip off to investigators that this is not

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Speaker 2: in the norm, and would it be enough for them

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Speaker 2: to actually say it out loud something's wrong here?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yeah not. I would expect her to stand

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Speaker 1: and deliver at that moment, Tom, if I asked her

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Speaker 1: a direct question, what and you know I hate to

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Speaker 1: watch question. Let's see, how could I phrase this?

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Speaker 2: Why didn't you cut him down?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Why didn't you cut him down? What was what

329
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Speaker 1: was going through your mind? What was it that was

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Speaker 1: some more important that you stay up here as opposed

331
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Speaker 1: to going down there. And let me go ahead and

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Speaker 1: tell you, ma'am beforehand, fear don't count.

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Speaker 2: She actually had an answer, Joe, Yeah, I got to

334
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Speaker 2: hear it, Dave. She said that she tried to tried

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Speaker 2: to do what she tried to get him down. Four

336
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Speaker 2: year old Brindley, little girl, beautiful little thing. Four year

337
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Speaker 2: old Brindley. I think weighed under forty pounds, right, okay,

338
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Speaker 2: and she mom didn't have the strength to get her down.

339
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Speaker 2: Connor eight years old was a big boy. He weighed

340
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Speaker 2: just south of one hundred and fifty pounds, and when

341
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Speaker 2: she couldn't get Brindley. She immediately just said, well, I

342
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Speaker 2: can't get him. That's the story she told. That's what

343
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Speaker 2: she said. And I think about the mother's stories we've heard,

344
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Speaker 2: you know, mother's lifting cars off babies and things like that. Yeah,

345
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Speaker 2: this internal this much the motherhood strength is not just physical.

346
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Speaker 2: It's emotional. It's like allogical, it's every type of strift.

347
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Speaker 1: It'll trump just about anything that's out there. And also

348
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Speaker 1: response response, response toward other individuals that are coming into

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Speaker 1: the sphere of their children too. Uh. You know, things

350
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Speaker 1: that moms will do. They'll get in between their kids

351
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Speaker 1: and a pit bull. Uh. And you don't think, you know,

352
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Speaker 1: as you know, you're you're here and you're thinking, well,

353
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Speaker 1: I don't want to be subjected to the pain of

354
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Speaker 1: all that stuff falls away when you're talking about your babies.

355
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Speaker 1: You'll do anything, you know, and where where is that here?

356
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Speaker 1: And I think for investigators, you know, when they're hearing this,

357
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Speaker 1: and I'm sure that some of these investigators are moms

358
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Speaker 1: and dads, and they're they're thinking, you know, what, what's

359
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: wrong here?

360
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Speaker 2: Why?

361
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Speaker 1: Why is it? Why is it that that you have

362
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Speaker 1: not done something? And you know, I do know this,

363
00:23:53,600 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 1: I do know that the sun. He had asked if

364
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Speaker 1: he could go down into the basement and build a fort,

365
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: and he had taken two chairs down there to facilitate this.

366
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Speaker 2: You know, we mentioned that earlier at the Yeah building

367
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Speaker 2: a fort. Yeah, My grandson Braylan, Yeah, has been in

368
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 2: that mode. Oh yeah building. Yeah, he will build a

369
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Speaker 2: ford out of anything. And that's what struck me as well.

370
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Speaker 2: When you were talking about that earlier. I thought, Yep,

371
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Speaker 2: he's in that zone of and has been.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I don't you know, you think about Connor,

373
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Speaker 1: who's this eight year old kid he's got We know

374
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Speaker 1: that he has issues.

375
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Speaker 2: And very specifically the issues of disability for him. He

376
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: has a speech issue, he has dexterity issues, he doesn't

377
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: not as and these are things that he's growing with.

378
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Speaker 2: And he is a big boy. I mentioned eight years old.

379
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Speaker 2: He's one hundred and fifty pounds. This is a jovial child, Joe.

380
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: But mom, Mom claim from the very beginning he was

381
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Speaker 2: bullied at school, bullied on the bus, did not want

382
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: to go to school, hated going to school. She laid

383
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: out all the reasons and even said he didn't want

384
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Speaker 2: to die alone. Her eight year old son bullied at school,

385
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: hates school, wants to die, doesn't want to die alone.

386
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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's break that down real quick, because here's the deal.

387
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 1: For every kid that is actually bullied, that's you know,

388
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: truly being bullied in an environment, well, first off, by

389
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: virtue of this. And I know that this probably doesn't

390
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: matter to Lisa Snyder at this point in time. She's

391
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: got more problems on her hands, but it diminishes, it

392
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: diminishes everybody else that are every other child that's going

393
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: through this kind of thing, right, and so, and it's

394
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: almost like that that's a default position any times bullying.

395
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: And you can say that, you know, and it really

396
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: doesn't require much of a deep dive, you know, you say, oh, bully, okay,

397
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: well let's let's roll with that. That that superficiality many times, uh,

398
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: kind of clouds of judgment when you're trying to do

399
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: an investigation. And I think that she understood, yeah, and yeah, exactly,

400
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: and so she's by that by virtue of that. It's

401
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: my opinion that she's trying to put the police off scent.

402
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: You know, she's given them you know, you know, I

403
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: got to tell you, Dave, there's something that happens when

404
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: you work the death of a child, and I know

405
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: this to be a fact in my world of investigations.

406
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: Most of the time parents, particularly in the immediate one

407
00:26:54,760 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: or two things happens, they're either nonverbal or they're screaming

408
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: so loud and it's unintelligible that you can't make sense

409
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: out of it. There is no middle ground. Most of

410
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: the time, you don't have somebody that when they're talking

411
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: to you and you're asking them about the death of

412
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: a child, where you know they've got that very kind

413
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: of flat thing that's going on, where calm collected. You know,

414
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: they have kind of all the plot line is there,

415
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: or as they say in Hollywood, the through line is there.

416
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: You know, you don't have that, and so investigators would

417
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: pick up on that, and then you go back to

418
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: to the idea that these you know, you couple that

419
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: with this explanation, and then these children are suspended, still

420
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: hanging when she goes down there. And here's another little thing.

421
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: Those chairs that I mentioned, they're turned over, and that's

422
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: again that goes to staging. It goes to staging because

423
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: you can take I mean, how much effort does it take. Well,

424
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: if I take the chair and I lay it on

425
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: its side like this, It's gonna look like they kicked

426
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: the chair out from undrum, you know, in some grand thing,

427
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: you know, like the scene with Brooks in Shawshank Redemption.

428
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: You know where he kicks you know, kicks the back, Yeah,

429
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: rocks it back and forth. And that's kind of the

430
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: classic thing. You're going to tell me that an eight

431
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: and a four year old child did this and the

432
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: chairs are both laying there, and yeah, it would be horrific,

433
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 1: But I would think it would be a greater horror

434
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: if you have to look back and say I didn't

435
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: do a damn thing about this to rescue my children

436
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: from death. So you know, for me, I think working

437
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: a case like this, I'll have more questions than answers,

438
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: because here's the thing. This would not have been a

439
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: painless death. This would have been something that these children

440
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: would have been fully aware of that the last bit

441
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: of oxygen was leaving their body. Their brain is screaming,

442
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: it's on fire, their chest no longer capable of rising

443
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: and falling. They can't take it in because all the while,

444
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: all the while, that noose created by a dog lead

445
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: is growing tighter and tighter around their necks simultaneously while

446
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: the weight of their body draws them down, and there

447
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: would be an awareness there. It would not be merciful death.

448
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: But I have to say Lisa Snyder is faced with

449
00:29:51,560 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: a certain reality of prison. Brother, let me kind of

450
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: break this down for you. Let me tell you what

451
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: this person, Lisa Snyder has said about her children, all right,

452
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: in this case. First off, she's told investigators that she

453
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: thought that her children wanted to kill themselves, just you know,

454
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: think about that. Then she says that her child was

455
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: bullied at school. Connor specifically, She claims that Connor again

456
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: we go back to, you know, when I was talking

457
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: about ideation and with vocalization. She claims that he had

458
00:30:53,560 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: vocalized about taking his life, Okay, And then she said,

459
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: and this is a very profound statement here when you

460
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: think about it, that he didn't want to die alone.

461
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: You know, that's that's the kind of thing you hear,

462
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: like if somebody's you know, suffering from some kind of

463
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: horrible terminal illness, I don't want to be alone, you know,

464
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: in my bed when I pass on, I want my

465
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: loved ones around me or something. That he's this eight

466
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: year old is actually vocalizing this to her. And here's

467
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: the other piece to this that kind of it's almost

468
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: like she's building out this narrative. She says that Connor

469
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: did not like to go into the basement alone, ergo,

470
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: he's going to bring his four year old sister down

471
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: there to accompany him. And of course for her in

472
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: her mind, I'm assuming this is her line of logic here,

473
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: she's trying to, you know, get the police are rationale

474
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: for what she wound up bearing witness to when she

475
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: went down there and saw both for kids suspended uh

476
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: in the basement. You know, you think about, well, how

477
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: does how does this work? You know, we're not we're

478
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: not talking about like two adults that have entered into

479
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: and these cases do happen. I've actually worked a couple

480
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: of these where you have two adults that have entered

481
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: into a suicide packt and but that generally involves like

482
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: an od uh uh there. It's smacks of what we

483
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: used refer to as a final exit death, which are

484
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: kind of detailed in this book that was wetten years ago.

485
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: You have all those, but it goes to kind of

486
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: a higher level thinking something you don't expect, you know,

487
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: from an eight year old child. And and here's the

488
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: other thing. We're talking about child that police discovered and

489
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: he's been diagnosed with praxia, and he's you know, he

490
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: has a difficult vocalizing things. His thought pattern doesn't marry

491
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: up to others. But he's jovial kid. And he's also

492
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: here's the other thing, David, he's also got dexterity issues

493
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: that kind of accompanies apraxia. He has limited motor motor

494
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: ability or it's compromised. It's not the same as say

495
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: a children on a normal developmental scale. And so the

496
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: fact that you go just at a baseline, David, at

497
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: a baseline, why this is so absurd is you think

498
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: about again the tying of everything, the facilitation of moving chairs,

499
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: and then he would have had to have if this

500
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: were the case, he would have had to have taken

501
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: his little sister, gotten her up on a chair, put

502
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: a noose around her neck, and then kicked the chair

503
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: out from under her, or pushed her swinging out away

504
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: from her and pulled it down to whatever the case

505
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: might be. How how do you explain that if this

506
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: kid has this this handicap essentially, you know, how do

507
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: you do that. Oh and by the way, after this

508
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: eight year old bears witness to what this horrible thing

509
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: that he is alleged to have committed, then he's going

510
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: to get on the chair and do the same thing.

511
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: How does it? Please explain to me, and this is

512
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: obviously rhetorical, Please explain to me, how exactly does that happen?

513
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well, here's the other thing. You've got two siblings,

514
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: one eight and one four. They look at one another

515
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: and they go, Okay, we've got the news is set up,

516
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: one two, three go. It's that the other option that

517
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: I have here. See, that's what really makes this so absurd.

518
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: There's so much planning in my experience with suicidal hangings

519
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: that takes place. I just I'm not buying it. I'm

520
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: not buying it, no matter how hard you try to

521
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: sell this to me. That's what it's so absurd. But David,

522
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: if this couldn't get any darker, please, I'm begging you.

523
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: I've already heard this line about she had mentioned to

524
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: somebody that and I'm paraphrasing here. I just I couldn't

525
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: do it anymore. I didn't want to do it anymore.

526
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: Whatever the case might be. You know, crimea river, but

527
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: this scene really took another dark turn here, didn't it.

528
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in today's world, there's always a digital

529
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 2: footprint that has to be looked at, and as police

530
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: were searching, they found out that Lisa Snyder had done

531
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: a number of things online. She looked up topics such

532
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: as carbon monoxide, hanging yourself, effective ways of hanging a person.

533
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: She searched episodes of the TV show I Almost Got

534
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: Away with It, which is fascinating to me because in

535
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: each one of those cases they didn't get away with it.

536
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: You're not really going to learn how to get away

537
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: with it, You're going to learn how they got caught.

538
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: But the other thing that pops up in this authorities

539
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: recover digital evidence that revealed photos and conversations regarding sexually

540
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: explicit messages about the dog performing sexual acts on Snyder.

541
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: There you have it right there, betiality and holy moly, Joe,

542
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: you've got a woman accused of killing her two children,

543
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: ages eight and four, and add bestiality to it all.

544
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 2: She's going to have a great time in prison.

545
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, because you know, look, I know people

546
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,479
Speaker 1: judge folks that are that are in prison, and people

547
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: are in for a number of reasons. You know, there's

548
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: many paths that lead there. But let me tell you something.

549
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: A group of people that do exist in prison, and

550
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: just let this sink in. Their mama's in prison. Their

551
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: mama's in prison that lament every day the decisions that

552
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: they have made that have separated, that have separated them

553
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: from their precious babies on the outside. Okay, they sit

554
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: there and they think about that. Now, Lisa Snyder, who

555
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: has now been found guilty okay in a court of

556
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 1: law in Pennsylvania, she's going to mark herself into that prison.

557
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: And the prison population is fully aware of what a

558
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: new inmate has done. They have ways of finding out. Okay.

559
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: I would suspect there would be a few people within

560
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: that prison that would look at this mother and realize

561
00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: suddenly that she in fact destroyed these two precious babies

562
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: because she was tired of it. Where you have that

563
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: portion of that population that every day would long to

564
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: wrap their arms around their babies that are on the

565
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: outside while they're in think she's going to have a

566
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: tough road ahead over Listen, folks, if any of you

567
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: are struggling with issues, or you have friends that are

568
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: struggling with issues. All you have to do is called

569
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: nine eight eight. That's nine eight eight. There's a lifeline.

570
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: It's a suicide and crisis lifeline. Please don't sit back,

571
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: You're not alone. There's hope, there's help again. That's nine

572
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: eight eight. Just reach out, there's help available. I'm Joseph

573
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Baddies