1 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: In May, I packed myself into the San Francisco Forts 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Football Stadium with forty other middle aged rockets to watch 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: YouTube perform. Bonno did a little intro before the music began. 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Here we are once again with the cars. That's when 5 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: I knew Silicon Valley's mania for this technology who gone 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: truly mainstream. When techs aren't complaining about President Trump, flying 7 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: cars often come up. Ubers working on a sky taxi project. 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: Google co founder Larry Page is funding two startups, and 9 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: a flock of other companies are working on their own 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: version of this technology. Here's the vision. A vehicle that 11 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: looks like the love child of a helicopter, drone and 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: a light airplane will zip people around the urban areas, 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: unclogging commutes and transforming cities. There will be an app, 14 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: of course, for your smartphone, so you can heal these vehicles. 15 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: And it will all happen in the next five or 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: ten years. But what many people in Silicon Valley are 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: too young to remember is that flying car euphoria has 18 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: already gripped the world, way back before iPhones, drones, and 19 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: even the Internet. I did grew up in a checkpoint, 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: like you said, and and and some hommy birds got 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: trapped in one of my father's sheds. The vision of 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: this vertical takeoff capability just struck me, and it's never 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: left me. That was inventor Paul Mueller, describing how a 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: chance encounter more than seventy years ago began his lifelong 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: dream of making a flying car. It's turned into a 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: nightmare though, involving hundreds of millions of dollars lost, regulatory investigations, 27 00:01:49,800 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: allegations of fraud and bankruptcy. Hi am akito and I'm 28 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: at and this week on Decrypted, we're telling you the 29 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: story of Paul Moehler's unwavering, even crazy optimism in the 30 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: face of dancing, technical, and financial challenges. There are lessons 31 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: for today's flying car devotees who are busy proclaiming that 32 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: this time is different, sounding really similar to Paul decades ago. Okay, 33 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: we have to start by asking what might be a 34 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: stupid question? Aren't flying cars just helicopters? That is, um 35 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: not a stupid question. That's alex As Silly, an entrepreneur 36 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: and partner at one of Europe's top venture capital firms, Atomico. 37 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: He's backing a German flying car startup called lillium. He 38 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: says there's already a ten to fifteen lion dollar market 39 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: for this technology, which is the market for conventional helicopters. 40 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: There is a difference, though. Helicopters are expensive and noisy, 41 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: with huge rotors that limit where they can land. Flying 42 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: cars are designed to be smaller and cheaper and combine 43 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: what backers hope are the best qualities of helicopters and airplanes. 44 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: Some use electric power, making them potentially quieter, Others use 45 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: a comba of battery and traditional gas power, and of 46 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: course a key feature is the ability to take off 47 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: and land vertically while also flying pretty fast to cover 48 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: longer distances. Some designs look like large drones, while others 49 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: look more like airplanes with multiple propellers that tilt up 50 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: and down. The cost of these things um is going 51 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: to come significantly down, I think, just as the starting 52 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: point will be considered really less expensive than helicopter. And 53 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: the vision, of course is that you know these will 54 00:03:58,080 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: be this will be a form of the market time 55 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: of their transport for kind of short media range. And 56 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: to tell the story from the beginning, we need to 57 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: go back to Paul Mueller's family farm back in the 58 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, long before Alex and most other flying car 59 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: backers were born. After Paul saw those hummingbirds you heard 60 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: about earlier, he began building all sorts of things that 61 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: either flew, moved fast, or held people through the air 62 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: in other ways. For example, at fifteen, he tried to 63 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: build a helicopter based on illustrations he saw in a book. 64 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: I didn't get too far before I realized I had. 65 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: I didn't have the materials, I didn't have the money, 66 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: I didn't have the machinery, but I didn't build part 67 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: of it. He spent all his time tinkering with tools 68 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: in his dad's shed. So he was a pretty poor 69 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: high school student. So he attended trade school in Canada 70 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: rather than college and emerged as an aircraft mechanic. Then 71 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: came his big break while taking grad courses at McGill 72 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: in his spare time in walks his famous aeronauticle engineer. 73 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: Then you won't know a little bit about me. You 74 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: know who the hell are you? According to Paul, Dr 75 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: Barry Newman wrote the reference that helped him land a 76 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: job as an acting assistant professor at the University of California, 77 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: and Davis You couldn't many more in the lead level 78 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: than that, But I did get ten year within five years, 79 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: and I left the university shortly after I got ten 80 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: year on a full time basis, started my company in Davis. 81 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: And that's the beginning of the story. By seven, Paul 82 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: Test flew his first vehicle with the press watching. It 83 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: was the shape of a flying saucer with a single 84 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: pilot sitting in the middle and fan blade engines around 85 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: the cockpit. What you're hearing here is the sound of 86 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: an early Modi flying car, the M two hundred X, 87 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: hovering above a field, attached to a crane by a 88 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: long cable. Then Paul made the new Era two hundred, 89 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: the Firefly, the sky Car two hundred and four hundred, 90 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: an air abouts, which was in early form of a drone. 91 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: By the late eighties, the media had fully caught the 92 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: flying car bug. CBS Evening News announced their imminent arrival 93 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: to the nation report that was mostly about Paul's exploits. 94 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: It's one of those American dreams that just won't go away. 95 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: Behind every garage door, not a car, but a personal 96 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: flying machine. It's a dream more widely pursued than you 97 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: might imagine. In There was another tethered test flight for 98 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: an updated M two in front of an even bigger audience, 99 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: and we had blades fly off on occasion. And we 100 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: knew that if we went how long, one minute, two minute, 101 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: five minutes, the blades were going to fly off. But 102 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: I needed a show of something. I had to show 103 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: that I could do this. So I went that flight. 104 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: It was a two minute flight, and I thought there 105 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: was a reason, possibly I would die. Just so you know, 106 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: he didn't die. I'm up there and our qualite fly around. 107 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: The flight is great. I run into the end of 108 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: the tether with a big bang and the plane stabilizes beautifully. 109 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: It's a beautiful picture. If you see the thing I comment, 110 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: you'll see that I'm so excited. Can hardly speak just 111 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: the fact that I managed to live foods my Sonia 112 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: said run a series we were on Discovery shot at 113 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: least four or five times as we were on CNN. 114 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I was sitting one day doing a story 115 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: for What's the British magazine like Blueberg I'm doing. I'm 116 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: doing a story on the phone with the economists, and 117 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson calls up. He wants a flying car and 118 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: That was probably the peak for Paul's flying car dreams. 119 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 1: Despite the early promise of flying car inventor Paul Mulla, 120 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: today none of his manned aircraft have flown far enough 121 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: to be commercially viable. We visited him at his new, 122 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: smaller headquarters near you see Davis in California's hot Central Valley. 123 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: It felt more like a museum than a tech company. 124 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: Prototype aircraft were arranged on a carpeted entrance area near 125 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: Paul's office. He gave us a tour and so you 126 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: hit that and then it'll drop down. Don't hang yourself 127 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: out the side when and then you've been the front 128 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: one close to that les too close, So I pressed, 129 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: I can Yeah, this is this is quite comfortable. That's 130 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: ACTI climbing into a red Molla flying car that looks 131 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: like a ite jet and being enclosed in the glass 132 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: dome of the cockpit. Yeah, I felt like such a badass, 133 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: like a military pilot. Six fan like engines about two 134 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: ft in diameter surrounded her. It has two seats, a 135 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: controller that looks like a joystick in the middle, and 136 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: a control panel with a tight cluster of about thirty 137 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: cream colored buttons. Can you turn one on, can we No, No, 138 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: that's that the f A and I I mean the 139 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: f A is very demanding or where they let you 140 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: go on what you do and when you can do it. 141 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: And that's where we're in right now, is working with 142 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: the f A. Much of the stuff you see flying 143 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: around is totally illegal with real man flights always out 144 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: of reach. Paul's inventions generated little revenue, and the project 145 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: was constantly bleeding cash. Paul says, the engines are the 146 00:09:54,320 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: really expensive challenge. Engines are luck at like a bonamous 147 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: of money. I've spent you know, probably two day's dollars 148 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: a hundred million on the damn engine. You can invent 149 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: any kind of weird design and get it patent and 150 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: get people pouring buckets of money in it before they 151 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: realize it's it's not thermally efficient, it's not reliable, it's 152 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 1: not any number of things. An engine, after all, is 153 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: key to a person's product. If it's a hybrid car 154 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: or an airplane, your life's going to depend on it. 155 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: Whatever it is, it's it's really important. Still, he tried 156 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: to feed that bottomless pit by making money on all 157 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: these other related inventions that he sold on the side. 158 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: Paul's super trapped mufflers became a hit accessory for bikers 159 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: and motorcycle races. He developed a successful real estate project 160 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: called Davis Research Park. Those two projects made him millions 161 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: of dollars, which he plowed back into his rehel obsession. 162 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: It still wasn't enough, though, so Paul tried to raise 163 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: money from investors directly and through the internet by to 164 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: Don't Two shares in the flying car company, Mueller International, 165 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: were publicly trading in the US over the counter market, 166 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: which is kind of like a second tier stock market. 167 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: Things look great at first. He said he was personally 168 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: worth four hundred million dollars at one point, but in 169 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: two thousand three, the SEC sued Paul in his company. 170 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: The SEC alleged that he was misleading investors by making 171 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: bold predictions that never came true. For example, they claimed 172 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: he said the stock would list on the Nastack the 173 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: top tech market, but it never was. They said Paul 174 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: projected sales of ten thousand flying cars by two thousand two, 175 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: Actually they didn't sell any. The SEC also said he 176 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: raised money from unsophisticated, less wealthy people without the right 177 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: public disclosure. That's also a big known it. The company 178 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: ended up settling for fifty thousand dollars without admitting that 179 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: it broke the law. Paul says he can't talk about it, 180 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: but he can't seem to stuff himself. If you read 181 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: the legal document everything else, we were not convicted or 182 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: anything or even suggested the end. If you read the 183 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: letter from our attorney and all the other things that 184 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: appeared on the internet site, we were never charged with anything. 185 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: Yet we still paid a fifty fine to decease and 186 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: desist or whatever term they have it of something we 187 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: never did. Still, the more we dug into Poul's funding 188 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: efforts for the last twenty years, the more questions we had. 189 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: Are you Are you a huckster? You? You are you 190 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: an inventor? Like most entrepreneurs, you you operate in and 191 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: world we're Optimism is your number one driving criteria, and 192 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: I am, I must admit, extremely optimistic about how quickly 193 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: things can happen. So if I'm a huckster, I'm diluting myself. 194 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: We also quiz job and ever, founder of one of 195 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: the hottest new flying car startups, job Aviation, and a 196 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: former student of Paul's job been describes Paul as a 197 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: visionary and an incredible engineer who poured his fortune into 198 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: flying cars time and time again, and then ran a 199 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: foul of securities laws through passion and lack of financial 200 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: sophistication rather than malice. But he had a warning to Yeah, 201 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: Joe Bend stressed that we shouldn't do a podcast that 202 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: encourages regular people to invest in Paul's project. He didn't 203 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: say why, but I got the message and I mentioned 204 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: it to Paul. Well, that's sure enough, that's a fair comment. 205 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: I have no problem with him saying that Paul's flying 206 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: car business never really recovered. Fast forward to and shares 207 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: of his public company, Moller International, are treating well below 208 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: one cent down for more than five dollars. In two 209 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: thousand two. Paul has also had a file for personal bankruptcy. 210 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: One thing that has seen a come the hype over 211 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: flying cars. This idea of consumer vehicles with vertical takeoff 212 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: and landing capabilities is just as hot as it was 213 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: back in until nine seventy eight, when airlines were just deregulated. 214 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: The idea getting on an airplane and popping across the country, 215 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: you know, to go somewhere, was you know, people dressed up. 216 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: It was a very special thing. That was Rob Racket, 217 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: co founder of a mobile charter aircraft booking service. So 218 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: we've already made that leap, right, so it's not it's 219 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: not terribly crazy to think that we can continue to 220 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: make that leap. He spoke to a reporter Justin Bachman, 221 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: on the sidelines of a conference Uber organized in April 222 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: where Uber unveiled its ambitions to develop electric sky taxis 223 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: that fly over cities. And that announcement came less than 224 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: a year after our boss Brad Stone, who, as many 225 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: of you know, co host this podcast, broke the news 226 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: that the pages backing to flying car startups z Arrow 227 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: and Kittie Hawk. We asked Paul about the sudden enthusiasm 228 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: for flying cars again, because this is someone who's been 229 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: working on this technology his entire life, and now these 230 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: much younger engineers are coming in and dominating the headlines. 231 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: I think it's the best thing in the world. And 232 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: I and I know that we're going to join forces 233 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: at some point with some of them, you know. Yeah, 234 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: and maybe we joined forces with some of the companies 235 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: like oh, We're Lived for example, or other ones were 236 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: I'm willing to work. And I'm not one of those 237 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: guys to say I want to have control of this company. 238 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: I like to have some say in the company, but 239 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: I've never success for me is having our vehicles in 240 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: the air and and and and getting it making some 241 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: some impact on on transportation. But then he still went 242 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: on to criticize almost every single competitor out there. It's 243 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: as stupid as design is never gonna work. It's absolutely 244 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: need how not to do things. But it shows you 245 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: can do anything if you want, if you don't really 246 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: understand or an artis that's pulled. Dissing Lillium, a German 247 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: flying car startup backed by Alex as Sale, the investor 248 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: we heard from earlier. Alex says Lillium knows exactly what 249 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: it's doing. One of Paul's major grapes is noise. He 250 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: says most designs are still too noisy for cities, even 251 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: if their electric engines are quiet, because they still need propellers. 252 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: He specifically called out startup E Hanks four battery powered aircraft. 253 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: You see the hand, big open propellers, then you're you're 254 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna have noise. You know, helicopters for over you 255 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: hear that boo, that's that engine, that's blades. He Hank 256 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: didn't respond to a quest for comment. Mark Moore, head 257 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: of Uber Sky Taxi Project, chastised us for profiling Paul 258 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: when there's so many exciting new flying car startups using 259 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: more modern technology. He called Paul's rotary engines dinosaurs of 260 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: the past, but Paul argues his hybrid approach is best 261 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: using batteries and rotary engines rather than just battery power. 262 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: Rotary designs are smaller, lighter, and more powerful than traditional 263 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: internal combustion engines. Paul says battery technology isn't capable of 264 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: providing both the intense short term thrust needed to get 265 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: cars airborne and the steady umph to make them fly 266 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: reliably for long distances. We have a very difference of 267 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: opinion what batteries gonna do. He his vision if he's 268 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: setting up Uber, is that batteries is gonna do these 269 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: magic things, and they're going to have flying cars to 270 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: moral going every which way it is. Mark Moore said 271 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: Uber is focusing on gridlock cities where flying cars need 272 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: no more than a sixty mile range. He predicted that 273 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: advanced batteries will be able to handle vertical liftoff and 274 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: those shorter ranges in the next five years. So this 275 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: future of skipping traffic in sky taxi is still always away. 276 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: The biggest difference between Paul and Mark is their access 277 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: to money. Mark is backed by Uber, which has raised 278 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: billions of dollars in recent years, while Paul can barely 279 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: scrabble together the money needed for a single regulator approved 280 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: test flight. Paul even had to sell his large flying 281 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: car headquarters to raise money to keep his project alive. 282 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: The lost I had to ranch properties. I had my 283 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: facility in Davis, which was a thirty five square five 284 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: thousand facility, and I just borrowed so much. I guess 285 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: it was better to just let it go for auction. Uh, 286 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: to get rid of, you know, of my personal debt. 287 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: Get reliable about five million dollars a personal debt. By 288 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: letting get be sold. A couple of his flying cars 289 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: were still at the old location, so we drove over there. 290 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: This is the site of his former glory. He even 291 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: built a racquetball court there. To stay fit today, he 292 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: has to sign in at the front desk, just like 293 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: anyone else. It looks a little different in here, doesn't 294 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: of all everything I got through, I know, returned this 295 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: area into a little kind of dinet kitchen area. Yeah, 296 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: and your old office is now a baby conference room. 297 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 1: Right is one of my original employees. He worked from 298 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: from years started and do you work for and he 299 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: works for us? Do when you bring we're more consultant position. 300 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: Once past security, he led us through the main hanger, 301 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: which is about the size of a football field and 302 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: multiple stories high. There two of his creations gathered dust 303 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: beside old machinery and newer equipment belonging to the current occupant. 304 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: Time is running out for pool, at least by traditional 305 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: standards of human longtivity. Paul is eighty but looks a 306 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: lot younger, with light brown hair and a brown beard 307 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: which he had missed the coloring occasion, and he's planning 308 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: to outlive most of us. There's a white board in 309 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: his office with a list written in large green letters. Exercise, 310 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: water pills, clear squats, powder and sardines. Well, that's that's 311 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: my daily list that I have to make sure that 312 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: I that I deal with it. Exercise, water pills. And 313 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: when I say pills, there you know, as I said, 314 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: I take probably sixty different pills a day. Made up 315 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: of maybe a hundred different things that are in it. Still, 316 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: I had to ask about succession plans, and I've had 317 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: really good people working for me, and I know what 318 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: to look for so I can build up a team. 319 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: They could do that, and I really want to do that. 320 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: I particularly want to build up a management team because 321 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: there's something happens to be The question is your how 322 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: is the company process to go forward? And so I 323 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: clearly have to make it within this year. This is 324 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: my this is my year to make this happen. He's 325 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: pinning his hopes on the rotary and in technology that 326 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier. The engine is gonna go It's gonna 327 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: go big, and I've got a contract that theoretically is 328 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: thirty forty five days away million dollars to put the 329 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: engine into mass production. This was in May, and Power 330 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: Source Creations, which is the company Paul said was providing 331 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: these millions of dollars, was not very forthcoming. When our 332 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: reporter Isabelle Gottlieb called to ask about its planned investment. 333 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: A Power Sols executive Christine Pereira, described it as an 334 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: agreement rather than an investment. Then she said she wasn't 335 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: at liberty to give any more information and abruptly hung up. 336 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: We checked in July and the power Source steel hadn't 337 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: happened yet. The company put out a statement on June 338 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: saying that unspecified bank cyber attacks had caused delays. The 339 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: very nature of the investment. It's quite a complex and 340 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: quite uh confidential program for reasons that we don't entirely understand. 341 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: But we're very comfortable. But again, I can't say it's 342 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: going to happen the next fifteen days. I could say 343 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: we're pretty comfortable is going to happen the next forty 344 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: five days, But that's the best I could say at 345 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: the moment. About a week after the power Source update, 346 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: we spotted another bad sign. Paul's original M four hundred 347 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: sky car was offered for sale on eBay for five 348 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: million dollars. The listing described it as a quote true 349 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: museum piece, and it had a major caveat. It said, 350 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: in this original form it does not have f A 351 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: A approval, and a condition of this offer is that 352 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: it cannot be flown where you need the flexibility to 353 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: land and take off at other than conventional airports. Then 354 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: this is the future, but the road to this future 355 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: has been long and winding, and one man has kept 356 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: following it longer than most. I've always had this desire 357 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: to build this vehicle and make it working only one. 358 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: It's sticking me a bit longer than I planned, But 359 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: Moehler will be back in pursuit of one version of 360 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: the American Dream. John Blackstone, CBS News, Davis, California. And 361 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: that's it for this week's Decrypted. Thanks for listening, and 362 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: if you haven't already, subscribed to our show wherever you 363 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and while you're there, leave us a 364 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: rating and a review. This helps us so much to 365 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: reach more listeners and tell us what you thought at 366 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: today's episode. You can email us at Decrypted at Bloomberg 367 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: dot net, or you can reach out to me on Twitter. 368 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: My handles aki eto seven and I'm Alistair m bar. 369 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Peter get, Carrie, Liz Smith 370 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: and Magnus Hendrickson. A special thanks to Isabel Gottlieb, who 371 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: helped us with the research and reporting for today's show. 372 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: Alec McCabe is head bloom Berg Podcasts. We'll see you 373 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: next week.