WEBVTT - Preet Bharara & Molly White 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.120 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.560 today's best minds, and AOC says, if you feel burnt 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.760 out by the news, that's exactly what Trump wants. We 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.520 have such a great show for you today. Former US 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:21.200 Attorney pre Berarra joins us to talk about the legal 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.079 obstacles that can at least hopefully keep Trump and check. 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:30.840 Then we'll talk to citation needed Molly White about the 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:36.320 tech bro oligarchy's plans for America. But first the news. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.360 So, Mollie, you and I we devoted a good amount 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.040 of our Project twenty twenty five documentary to this fellow 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.240 RUSS vote, and he's unfortunately now going to be doing 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:49.440 exactly what he wanted to in Project twenty twenty five, 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:51.960 which is running the omb, which we knew was going 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:52.440 to happen. 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.120 RUSS vote is the stuff of nightmares right here. He is. 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.680 He is a person who has already broken the law 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.039 with this impoundment stuff. Right. So, basically we've talked about 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:09.080 this before, but Congress appropriates money, the President's Office of 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.920 Management and Budget gets the money, and then they are 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.640 supposed to allocate it to actions of the federal government. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.759 But what happened here is that Russ Vott in Trump 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.479 one point zero refused to allocate the money, and that 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.720 caused these sort of constitutional crisis which ended in Trump's 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.520 first impeachment. We know from Project twenty twenty five that 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.280 this is Vot's plan for the second Trump two point zero. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:42.120 And it's not just Vot's plan, it is the entire 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.520 ethos of Project twenty twenty five to dismantle the administrative state, 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.920 to shrink the federal government, to create a kind of 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:57.400 more autocrat friendly federalism. So one of the things that 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:59.480 I think Democrats have done, which is really smart, is 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.800 even thought was Centatip proved last time, and so he 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.520 does have a certain kind this is not his first rodeo, right, 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.280 There is a sense in which sometimes set people who 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.320 have already been confirmed are sort of thought as to 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.440 be a sort of no brainer. And what Democrats did 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.760 was they filibustered him. So he will in fact get 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.240 confirmed because they are only forty seven Democrats in the 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.880 Senate fifty three Republicans, so they don't have the votes 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.280 to prevent him, but they were able to make it 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:34.600 clear and so much of this, and I don't know 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.200 that we talk about this enough. So much of this 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:41.160 is a war of trying to as Chris Hayes who 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.560 just wrote this book about attention, so much of this 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.960 is about getting attention. So what Democrats are doing here 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.120 is trying to message at Russ Vott is very much 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.919 not the norm and that this is a departure from 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:58.240 typical Republican businesses usual politics. And I think we're going 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.040 to see this play out more. I think it's smart 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.520 they spoke out against him during the roll call, during speeches, 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:07.919 and you know we're seeing that at the state level. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:09.880 And of course, our friend who will be on this 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:15.239 podcast very soon, Sheldon Whitehouse, said I vote against creepy 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.120 billionaire influence and he cast his vote. So good to 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.320 see Democrats doing this. Look, they don't have a huge 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.960 menu of options, so they're doing what they can. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.320 Yeah. Well, every so often in the news cycle we're 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.400 introduced to a new turn of phrase that well is 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.640 worse and worse and worse by the day. And the 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.520 one that I learned yesterday was I was racist before 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.440 it was cool, which was said by one of Musk's 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.960 doge teenagers who was fired by Doge after they found 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.600 out about all his racist tweets. But there's some more 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.240 revelations about this fellow that are not good. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.120 Yeah, So I mean he actually was fired than he 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.200 was re hired because of a Twitter poll. By the way, 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.800 Elon does these Twitter polls, and then if they don't 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.200 say what he wants, he doesn't carry just keeps going, 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:04.160 which I think is. 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.720 Was going to step down from Twitter because Twitter pool. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.720 That's right. So there are two different Doge employees who 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.320 have now captured the zeitgeist. One is the one who 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.520 said that he was racist against Indians. Before it was 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.039 cool to be racist against Indians. It's never been cool 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.680 to be racist against anyone, so I think we can. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.800 I think he actually just said racist, not racist to Indians. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.640 Okay, So anyway, that was one of them. And then 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.760 the other one. We have this really good reporting from 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:37.440 everybody's favorite at Bloomberg, which is that Musk's Doge team 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.800 was fired by cybersecurity firm for leaking company secrets. That 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:46.520 guy is in the federal government, the federal payment system. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.640 Think about that for a second. Edward has been terminated 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.239 for leaking internal information to competitors in a June twenty 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.440 twenty two message from an executive of the firm. So, uh, 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.680 you know, these are two of Elon's crew. It's really 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.640 something to think about here, that these are the people 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.440 who are being put it in these jobs, are not 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.440 actually really the people who should be in these jobs. 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.159 That this is not how any of this is supposed 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:22.240 to work. So unsurprising, still disturbing, and that is where 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:22.560 we are. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:24.919 I think it's even more disturbing that one of the 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.440 reasons we know this is because he bragged about it 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.120 in discord shots for Cloud. 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:30.080 Well they're young. 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:36.840 Yeah, yeah, I'm stupid. 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:38.360 And in our federal government's computer systems. 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.200 I really appreciate too that jd Vance came to defend 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.960 that these racist remarks are not worthy of firing. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.440 Yeah, I mean there you go. I mean, look, this 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.840 whole sand castle is built on the idea that it's 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:59.240 okay to be that. So it's not surprising to me 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.120 that he was re hired despite what would otherwise. And remember, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.560 like in normal life, in the real world, all these 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.279 people would have been fired, right, there's no you know, 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:11.760 we would have been fired. I mean, this is just 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.760 this is we've we're in Bizarro world here. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.600 Yeah, the I of DEI is really doing a lot 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:19.920 of work in this administration. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:20.920 Yeah. 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.560 And better news, a judge has paused Trump's plan to 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.479 put USAID staff on leave. 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.400 The good news about everything being legal? 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.640 Is that what a phrase? 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:37.000 But it's true, you know, is that when it's illegal, 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:41.279 the court stop it. So again, does that mean that 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:46.080 we are sanguine? We are very worried about American democracy 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:51.320 as well. We should be. But basically, lawyers and groups 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:56.679 like sky Perriman's group Democracy Forward are pursuing legal action 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.680 against each one of these illegal things. And what's happening 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.839 is they're working their way through the courts, and the 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.120 courts are saying, no, you can't fucking fire everyone in 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.600 a federal agency because you feel like it. What Elon 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.400 has been doing is going through all of the newspapers 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.680 and magazines that these federal agencies are charging on their 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.800 work accounts. And when it comes to Politico, you know, 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:27.120 woke Politico, which is mostly just tracks federal government, you know, process, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.480 and in fact, the more expensive version of Politico, the 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.920 pay political keeps track of sort of bills that pass 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:39.400 and Senate phone numbers. I mean, it's not exactly like 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.360 woke indoctrination. But remember, so much of this is projection, 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.600 not all of this is actually you know, much of 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.440 this is showmanship. So anyway, a lot of this is illegal. 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:56.040 It's going through the courts. These people are going to ultimately, 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.160 you know, they're going to be injunctions. They're not going 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:04.640 to be fire Already, they know that Elon and Trump 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.360 that much of the stuff they're trying to do is illegal, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.200 and so we're going to see more and more of that. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.440 I just want to point out that what you're seeing 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.360 as Trump and Elon really squandering their credibility. And you know, 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.720 you think of credibility as maybe how credible are any 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.280 of these people, but actually squandering your credibility means that 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.240 when they fire people, the people just won't leave. And 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:29.800 that's what we're going to see more and more of. 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:40.120 Pret Bararra is a former US attorney for the Southern 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.840 District of New York and the host of Stay Tuned 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.199 with Welcome back to Fast Politics, Breed. 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:47.120 Good to be here. 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.400 We're just galloping along, as you said when you got 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.320 here a minute ago, fast, very fast, till every minute 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:56.760 of every day when I am reading the New York 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:01.559 times or watching cable news, or are watching c SPAN. 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.480 I spend a lot of time watching c SPAN. I 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.760 think to myself, it's not legal, is it? That can't possibly? 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.720 I mean, besides being a constitutional crisis. So how much 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.840 illegal stuff is going on right now? One hundred percent? 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:15.280 Eighty percent? 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.720 I don't know what the denominator is because, like you, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.080 I feel overwhelmed. 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.080 I'm submerged by all this stuff. You know. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.920 Part of my professional job is to pay attention to 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.800 these things and digest them and think about them and 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.000 then talk about them on my own podcasts and with 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.600 you and with others. And if I have trouble keeping up, 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.200 then what chance does the general public have in keeping up? 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:38.600 But I think I think a lot of it which 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:39.439 is by design. 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:41.640 Yeah, a lot of it is unlawful and will be 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.160 adjudicated to be unlawful, you know, just just right off 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.920 the top. If you think the effort to end birthright 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.240 citizenship that's been blocked, I think by two different judges. 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.560 This whole other caper about freezing federal funds in a 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:59.120 way that was ambiguous and unclear and counterproductive, that's been blocked. 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.679 The buyout plan to try to reduce the ranks of 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.120 federal workers that's been blocked. You know, all these things 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.280 will be litigated, some will be one, some will be lost. 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:08.480 But there's going to be a lot of litigation and 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.480 a lot of fighting in a lot of courts. 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.360 But right now, well these fights are going on, and 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:19.360 Donald Trump is musking about Trump Tower and Gaza. We're 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.319 seeing and I don't mean to be craven, you know, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.839 with his talk about the Middle East is particularly offensive 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.520 for any number of reasons. But I'm just wondering if 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:35.400 you could explain Elon Musk and a number of teenagers 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.120 or maybe early twenty year olds who have dupious backgrounds 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.959 are in all of the computer systems in the federal 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:48.480 government making them do something? Is that legal? That seems 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:50.760 really dicey to may Well. 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.160 There has been reporting that suggests that a lot of 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.800 Trump allies on the Republican side have been voicing precisely 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.440 that concern, have been saying behind the scenes, there's a 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:01.679 lot of stuff going on here. There's a lot of 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.000 stuff that the doge is doing. Even if we agree, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:05.120 I mean, I think a lot of people on the 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.720 Democratic side too, can agree with the general premise that 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.400 parts of government are bloated and the waste, fraud, and 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.840 abuse should be cut out. There's a way to do it, 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.319 and there's a way not to do it, and I 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:16.960 think you're going to see a lot of suits in 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:21.160 that regards. Well, look, usaid it's a statutorially created entity 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.240 of significant size, which is why maybe it's a target 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.240 and significant value as suggested by lots of people, including 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.360 Lindsay Graham and Marco Rubio and a whole host of 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.120 other people. And the idea that you know, a few 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.520 folks who are not particularly accountable or accountable at all 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.040 are going to dismantle a ten billion dollar agency runs 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.880 a foul of how we think effective government should work. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.000 But also laws that I think you're going to see 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:48.240 a lot of fights there there too. 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:48.480 You know. 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.480 The other way I think about this is on the 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.480 optimistic side, is this flood the zone strategy with respect 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.439 to executive orders and the DOGE and the memos that 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:02.280 have been issued by the newly minted Attorney General Pam 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.040 BONDI is I wonder if I'm not a huge box 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.360 of okay, well good, So maybe you can tell me 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.880 if this this is valid or not that maybe it's 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.959 the sort of involuntary ropodope strategy. I'm the part of 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:15.920 the Democrats that at some point, I don't know if 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.280 this is true or not, but I'm trying to look 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.800 for silver linings that the Trump administration will so overextend 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.559 and exhaust itself with EO after EEO after EO and 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.320 memo after memo and changing things and eliminating things and 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.040 dismantling things by fiat, that they will be so roiled 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.600 up in litigation and fights both with the other side 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.760 and within their own side, that they tire themselves out 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.400 and ends up being not a good strategy because it 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.880 was not particularly well thought out. Look, you know, separate 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.319 apart from the legal defeats that some of these moves 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.040 have suffered at the hands of courts, there have been 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.840 withdrawals of some of these things on Trump's own part right, 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:58.679 because they don't think these things. They don't think these 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.480 things out. They have a blunder bus approach, and they 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.160 say this is bad, so we're going to eliminate all 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.120 of this. But they don't define what this is. And 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.400 the example I keep coming back to is in the 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.959 first term, in the first week, they issued this broad 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.880 and sweeping so called Muslim band, but they didn't distinguish 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:14.640 between who was allowed to come back and who wasn't, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.880 who's allowed entry and who wasn't. And there was this 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.760 huge question for a while because they hadn't addressed the 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.360 issue of whether or not Green card holders were included 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.760 or excluded, right, And that keeps happening with these guys 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.680 because they value speed over accuracy and fairness, No. 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.040 For sure, And I mean that's what we're seeing here 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.840 is we see them making a lot of mistakes because 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.200 they're moving too quickly and because they don't ultimately have 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.520 an ethos, you know, except move fast and break things 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.040 that are not theirs to break. Really, I'm glad you're 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.560 being optimistic because I often try to figure out there's 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:55.480 some some place for optimism in this whole catastrophe. So 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.520 I'm wondering, you know, it definitely seems like the courts 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.680 are going to say you can't do this stuff. Now 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.080 here's my question. When the courts say you can't do 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.520 this stuff, you could definitely see Maybe I don't know 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.160 who will be the first in Trump world to ignore 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.360 the courts. My guess is that Russ Vott is going 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.000 to be high on that list because he has done 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.520 it before, right and Trump one point zero he refused 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:25.080 to release the money, and for Ukraine he messed around 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.480 with impounding the funds. So I'm wondering with the funds 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.600 that were impounded releasing them. So I'm wondering if you 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.440 what make me feel better about what happens when they 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:37.240 ignore the law. 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.760 Well, so far, and one of your student listeners will 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.840 correct me and us if I'm wrong. There's been a 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.760 defiance of law and clear interpretations of law. There is 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:50.040 defiance and a breach of the law related to Inspectors General. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.440 That's one item I didn't take off my earlier list 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.280 because there's clearly a requirement that you must give thirty 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.000 days notice to Congress and an explanation as to why 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.000 you're taking that action against people are supposed to be 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.880 independent and above and beyond. 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:02.800 And outside of politics. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.080 There has not been that I can think of, a 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.920 court order or injunction sustained all the way to the 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.600 Supreme Court that the Trump administration has said, f you, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:13.680 we're not going to do it. That would be that 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.960 would be a real, real crisis. And my optimism is 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.640 and I don't know how well founded it is is 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.440 that we haven't seen that kind of absolutely clear, concrete, 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:28.440 deliberate direct defiance at a court order, vetted all the 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.760 way to the top, and I hope never to see it. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:32.800 I love that I'll take that to the bank. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:34.120 I wouldn't. 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.040 I don't know. I don't know which bank will that deposit. 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.560 But hopefully that's the case. Look, it still happens to 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.760 be true that the Trump folks, you know, for sure, 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.440 at least at this point, but even you know, definitionally 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.160 autocratic societies. I've had this conversation with Gary Kasparrow on 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.400 a number of occasions, and wonder White is Putin is 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.600 basically a dictator, and you have them in other parts 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.480 of the world, and they can do whatever they want, 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.520 and they're acknowledged to have the authority to do whatever 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.480 they want. They revel in their dictator status. And yet 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.840 even they seek, you know, even as they break the law, 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.680 they seek to cloak themselves in legality and in constitutionality 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.520 and in norms, and they're always trying to defend what 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.080 they're doing, even as they imprison people like Alexi Navalni. 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.800 Now it may be all bullshit and a sham. There's 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:24.600 still something that autocrats are fretful about if they're overly seen, overly, 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.280 dramatically and directly defying the rule of law, even though 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:29.240 it happens all the time. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.600 If that makes any sense. 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.640 Yes, exactly. I would love if we're going to just 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.800 be anxious here and talk about Gary kasprov what do 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.040 we think. It strikes me that, like the worst case scenario, 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.520 and a lot of people who are very smart, who 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:46.720 I know, who I'm friends with, I have a lot 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.920 of anxiety about America turning into Russia. That is not, 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.120 in my mind, I think a likely scenario for any 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.200 number of reasons. And it sounds like you also believe that. 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.800 And I'm wondering if you could sort of make me 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.040 feel better because I'm very stressed out. Thank you. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.679 So there are other defenses, not the ones that we 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.640 normally think about. Separate from the courts and separate from Congress, 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.120 which has been basically supine. Hope springs eternal. That Congress 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.040 and the Senate and Center Republicans in particular will say, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.600 you know, hey, we created this thing by statute, you 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.480 can't take it away by fiat, or hey, you know, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.880 this is a totally unqualified person for this very important, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.840 sensitive cabinet position. We can't do that, you know, at 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.440 any moment. I'm not holding my breath. That can happen 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.399 if there's the thing that has long been predicted and 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.400 has never come to pass, that Trump and his cronies 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.840 over extend to such an extent that people other than 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.480 Lisa Rakowski and now Mitch McConnell, you know, stand in 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.160 their way. So you know, there is that structural check. 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.680 There's also the courts, and the courts don't always decide 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.320 it was all Trump. But separate from that, there's other 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.600 things like public sentiment, and it is true, not often, 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.160 certainly not always, public sentiment when it is overwhelmingly negative 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.239 about something causes the Trump folks to change course. That 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.400 happened when you had separations of children from their parents 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.200 in the last term. And there's yet another thing, by 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.320 the way, you know, we haven't talked about tariffs yet. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:17.119 There's all this controversy and pretty much consensus with respect 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.280 to anyone who's intelligent about economics about the inflationary pressure 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:25.439 the tariffs would cause. In particular, not just inflationary pressure, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.439 but other diplomatic fiascos and ruination of our allies and 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.680 relationships with our allies with Canada and Mexico. On the 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.160 day that those tariffs were going to go into effect, well, 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:36.720 I don't know if you call it the fifth branch 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.160 of government for Donald Trump, but the stock market began 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:40.280 to tank, right, That. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.960 Really is the fifth branch of government for Donald Trump. Yeah. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.920 Yeah, it's like it's like there's the executive, there's the judiciary, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.840 there's the legislative, and then there's the now with the Nasdaq. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.119 That wouldn't give a lot of political scientists and political 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.600 theorists a lot of comfort. But it's not like there 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.240 are not things that give Trump pause. There are, and 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.879 maybe in combination and when when you know, stitch together 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:09.000 shrewdly by Democrats, although I don't see that. 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:13.320 Ahead of yourself. Their breaks at the moment together shrewdly, yes. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:17.119 Stitch together truly rudely. Maybe something can happen. You just 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.400 don't know. I mean, some people are saying, look again, 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:21.000 it's only it's been five minutes. 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.480 No, I know, it feels like it's been. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.600 Five minutes nineteen days and it takes some time. 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.160 But when people listen this, it'll be twenty one days continue, yes, 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:30.479 or twenty days or whatever. 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:32.719 It's also the case because of the incompetence of these 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.640 guys in so many areas and their lack of care 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:38.919 in vetting and doing so many other things. This is 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.399 not a great and most shrewd strategy, but I'm quite 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:47.840 confident that there will be overreaches of such significance and 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.680 opposition that there's going to be a straw that breaks 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.560 the camel's back with respect to at least one or 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.800 more of these things. It's just going to happen because 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.040 because you just can't move. I used a terrible analogy 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.879 on the podcast with Joyce fans Insider Fansider podcast. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.879 Yes, tell me about cafe and now I'm just kidding, actually, 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:08.320 joy Yeah, Joyce Fancy is really one of the great 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.119 So anyway, yes. 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.400 He's terrific, and she was polite enough not to laugh 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.879 at my metaphor. But even if it's the case that 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.360 you find yourself in an inopportune place at the bottom 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.080 of the sea somewhere, or deep diving, and there's some 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.760 menacing fish or you know, a whale or a shark 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.800 or some you know some other thing and you need 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.160 to get up to the surface for safety, you can't 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:31.480 just rush up to the surface. 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.600 Because of this thing called the bends. 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.520 You will dive, you know, either an equally quick or 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.240 quicker death if you rush to the top. So that's 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.040 my lame analogy in nature of the need to even 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.040 if there's some cause to fix something or do something differently. 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.600 You know, slowfulness is not good, and government often moves 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.240 too slowly. But doing this at too great a speed 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:52.760 can do more injury than good. 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:57.080 Yeah, no, I mean obviously, but it is interesting to me, 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:03.040 like we'll watch this sort of lawlessness and the zeal right, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:09.720 the delight at disassembling things like USA and the EPA, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.800 and this sort of regit the federal government. And I wonder, 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.080 you know, as someone who it's so you know, to 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:19.320 me in my own personal history, right, I had a 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.679 grandfather who was jailed by Republican Congress, I mean for 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.239 his opinions, for refusing to name names. I wonder in 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.600 your mind, like the rage that these people have towards 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.040 the federal government. I mean, is I think about their 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.480