1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and AOC says, if you feel burnt 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: out by the news, that's exactly what Trump wants. We 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. Former US 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Attorney pre Berarra joins us to talk about the legal 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: obstacles that can at least hopefully keep Trump and check. 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to citation needed Molly White about the 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: tech bro oligarchy's plans for America. But first the news. 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: So, Mollie, you and I we devoted a good amount 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: of our Project twenty twenty five documentary to this fellow 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: RUSS vote, and he's unfortunately now going to be doing 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: exactly what he wanted to in Project twenty twenty five, 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: which is running the omb, which we knew was going 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: to happen. 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: RUSS vote is the stuff of nightmares right here. He is. 17 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: He is a person who has already broken the law 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: with this impoundment stuff. Right. So, basically we've talked about 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: this before, but Congress appropriates money, the President's Office of 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: Management and Budget gets the money, and then they are 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: supposed to allocate it to actions of the federal government. 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: But what happened here is that Russ Vott in Trump 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: one point zero refused to allocate the money, and that 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: caused these sort of constitutional crisis which ended in Trump's 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: first impeachment. We know from Project twenty twenty five that 26 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: this is Vot's plan for the second Trump two point zero. 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: And it's not just Vot's plan, it is the entire 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: ethos of Project twenty twenty five to dismantle the administrative state, 29 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: to shrink the federal government, to create a kind of 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: more autocrat friendly federalism. So one of the things that 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: I think Democrats have done, which is really smart, is 32 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: even thought was Centatip proved last time, and so he 33 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: does have a certain kind this is not his first rodeo, right, 34 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: There is a sense in which sometimes set people who 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: have already been confirmed are sort of thought as to 36 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: be a sort of no brainer. And what Democrats did 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: was they filibustered him. So he will in fact get 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: confirmed because they are only forty seven Democrats in the 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: Senate fifty three Republicans, so they don't have the votes 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: to prevent him, but they were able to make it 41 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: clear and so much of this, and I don't know 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: that we talk about this enough. So much of this 43 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: is a war of trying to as Chris Hayes who 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: just wrote this book about attention, so much of this 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: is about getting attention. So what Democrats are doing here 46 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: is trying to message at Russ Vott is very much 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: not the norm and that this is a departure from 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: typical Republican businesses usual politics. And I think we're going 49 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: to see this play out more. I think it's smart 50 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: they spoke out against him during the roll call, during speeches, 51 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: and you know we're seeing that at the state level. 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: And of course, our friend who will be on this 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: podcast very soon, Sheldon Whitehouse, said I vote against creepy 54 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: billionaire influence and he cast his vote. So good to 55 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: see Democrats doing this. Look, they don't have a huge 56 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: menu of options, so they're doing what they can. 57 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, every so often in the news cycle we're 58 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: introduced to a new turn of phrase that well is 59 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: worse and worse and worse by the day. And the 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: one that I learned yesterday was I was racist before 61 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: it was cool, which was said by one of Musk's 62 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: doge teenagers who was fired by Doge after they found 63 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: out about all his racist tweets. But there's some more 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: revelations about this fellow that are not good. 65 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean he actually was fired than he 66 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: was re hired because of a Twitter poll. By the way, 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: Elon does these Twitter polls, and then if they don't 68 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: say what he wants, he doesn't carry just keeps going, 69 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: which I think is. 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: Was going to step down from Twitter because Twitter pool. 71 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: That's right. So there are two different Doge employees who 72 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: have now captured the zeitgeist. One is the one who 73 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: said that he was racist against Indians. Before it was 74 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: cool to be racist against Indians. It's never been cool 75 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: to be racist against anyone, so I think we can. 76 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: I think he actually just said racist, not racist to Indians. 77 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So anyway, that was one of them. And then 78 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: the other one. We have this really good reporting from 79 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: everybody's favorite at Bloomberg, which is that Musk's Doge team 80 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: was fired by cybersecurity firm for leaking company secrets. That 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: guy is in the federal government, the federal payment system. 82 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: Think about that for a second. Edward has been terminated 83 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 1: for leaking internal information to competitors in a June twenty 84 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: twenty two message from an executive of the firm. So, uh, 85 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, these are two of Elon's crew. It's really 86 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: something to think about here, that these are the people 87 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: who are being put it in these jobs, are not 88 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: actually really the people who should be in these jobs. 89 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: That this is not how any of this is supposed 90 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: to work. So unsurprising, still disturbing, and that is where 91 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: we are. 92 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 2: I think it's even more disturbing that one of the 93 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: reasons we know this is because he bragged about it 94 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: in discord shots for Cloud. 95 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: Well they're young. 96 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm stupid. 97 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: And in our federal government's computer systems. 98 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: I really appreciate too that jd Vance came to defend 99 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: that these racist remarks are not worthy of firing. 100 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there you go. I mean, look, this 101 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: whole sand castle is built on the idea that it's 102 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: okay to be that. So it's not surprising to me 103 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: that he was re hired despite what would otherwise. And remember, 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: like in normal life, in the real world, all these 105 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: people would have been fired, right, there's no you know, 106 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: we would have been fired. I mean, this is just 107 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: this is we've we're in Bizarro world here. 108 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, the I of DEI is really doing a lot 109 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: of work in this administration. 110 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 111 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: And better news, a judge has paused Trump's plan to 112 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: put USAID staff on leave. 113 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: The good news about everything being legal? 114 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: Is that what a phrase? 115 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: But it's true, you know, is that when it's illegal, 116 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: the court stop it. So again, does that mean that 117 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: we are sanguine? We are very worried about American democracy 118 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: as well. We should be. But basically, lawyers and groups 119 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: like sky Perriman's group Democracy Forward are pursuing legal action 120 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: against each one of these illegal things. And what's happening 121 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: is they're working their way through the courts, and the 122 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: courts are saying, no, you can't fucking fire everyone in 123 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: a federal agency because you feel like it. What Elon 124 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: has been doing is going through all of the newspapers 125 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: and magazines that these federal agencies are charging on their 126 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: work accounts. And when it comes to Politico, you know, 127 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: woke Politico, which is mostly just tracks federal government, you know, process, 128 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: and in fact, the more expensive version of Politico, the 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: pay political keeps track of sort of bills that pass 130 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: and Senate phone numbers. I mean, it's not exactly like 131 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: woke indoctrination. But remember, so much of this is projection, 132 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: not all of this is actually you know, much of 133 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: this is showmanship. So anyway, a lot of this is illegal. 134 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: It's going through the courts. These people are going to ultimately, 135 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, they're going to be injunctions. They're not going 136 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: to be fire Already, they know that Elon and Trump 137 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: that much of the stuff they're trying to do is illegal, 138 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: and so we're going to see more and more of that. 139 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: I just want to point out that what you're seeing 140 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: as Trump and Elon really squandering their credibility. And you know, 141 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: you think of credibility as maybe how credible are any 142 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: of these people, but actually squandering your credibility means that 143 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: when they fire people, the people just won't leave. And 144 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: that's what we're going to see more and more of. 145 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: Pret Bararra is a former US attorney for the Southern 146 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: District of New York and the host of Stay Tuned 147 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: with Welcome back to Fast Politics, Breed. 148 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: Good to be here. 149 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: We're just galloping along, as you said when you got 150 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: here a minute ago, fast, very fast, till every minute 151 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: of every day when I am reading the New York 152 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: times or watching cable news, or are watching c SPAN. 153 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time watching c SPAN. I 154 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: think to myself, it's not legal, is it? That can't possibly? 155 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: I mean, besides being a constitutional crisis. So how much 156 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: illegal stuff is going on right now? One hundred percent? 157 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: Eighty percent? 158 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 4: I don't know what the denominator is because, like you, 159 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 4: I feel overwhelmed. 160 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 3: I'm submerged by all this stuff. You know. 161 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 4: Part of my professional job is to pay attention to 162 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 4: these things and digest them and think about them and 163 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 4: then talk about them on my own podcasts and with 164 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 4: you and with others. And if I have trouble keeping up, 165 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 4: then what chance does the general public have in keeping up? 166 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: But I think I think a lot of it which 167 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 3: is by design. 168 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of it is unlawful and will be 169 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 4: adjudicated to be unlawful, you know, just just right off 170 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 4: the top. If you think the effort to end birthright 171 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 4: citizenship that's been blocked, I think by two different judges. 172 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 4: This whole other caper about freezing federal funds in a 173 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 4: way that was ambiguous and unclear and counterproductive, that's been blocked. 174 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 4: The buyout plan to try to reduce the ranks of 175 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 4: federal workers that's been blocked. You know, all these things 176 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 4: will be litigated, some will be one, some will be lost. 177 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: But there's going to be a lot of litigation and 178 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 4: a lot of fighting in a lot of courts. 179 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: But right now, well these fights are going on, and 180 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is musking about Trump Tower and Gaza. We're 181 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: seeing and I don't mean to be craven, you know, 182 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: with his talk about the Middle East is particularly offensive 183 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: for any number of reasons. But I'm just wondering if 184 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: you could explain Elon Musk and a number of teenagers 185 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: or maybe early twenty year olds who have dupious backgrounds 186 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: are in all of the computer systems in the federal 187 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: government making them do something? Is that legal? That seems 188 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: really dicey to may Well. 189 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 4: There has been reporting that suggests that a lot of 190 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 4: Trump allies on the Republican side have been voicing precisely 191 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 4: that concern, have been saying behind the scenes, there's a 192 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 4: lot of stuff going on here. There's a lot of 193 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 4: stuff that the doge is doing. Even if we agree, 194 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 4: I mean, I think a lot of people on the 195 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 4: Democratic side too, can agree with the general premise that 196 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 4: parts of government are bloated and the waste, fraud, and 197 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 4: abuse should be cut out. There's a way to do it, 198 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 4: and there's a way not to do it, and I 199 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 4: think you're going to see a lot of suits in 200 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 4: that regards. Well, look, usaid it's a statutorially created entity 201 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 4: of significant size, which is why maybe it's a target 202 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 4: and significant value as suggested by lots of people, including 203 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: Lindsay Graham and Marco Rubio and a whole host of 204 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 4: other people. And the idea that you know, a few 205 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 4: folks who are not particularly accountable or accountable at all 206 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 4: are going to dismantle a ten billion dollar agency runs 207 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 4: a foul of how we think effective government should work. 208 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 4: But also laws that I think you're going to see 209 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 4: a lot of fights there there too. 210 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 3: You know. 211 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 4: The other way I think about this is on the 212 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 4: optimistic side, is this flood the zone strategy with respect 213 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 4: to executive orders and the DOGE and the memos that 214 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 4: have been issued by the newly minted Attorney General Pam 215 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 4: BONDI is I wonder if I'm not a huge box 216 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 4: of okay, well good, So maybe you can tell me 217 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 4: if this this is valid or not that maybe it's 218 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 4: the sort of involuntary ropodope strategy. I'm the part of 219 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 4: the Democrats that at some point, I don't know if 220 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: this is true or not, but I'm trying to look 221 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 4: for silver linings that the Trump administration will so overextend 222 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 4: and exhaust itself with EO after EEO after EO and 223 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: memo after memo and changing things and eliminating things and 224 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 4: dismantling things by fiat, that they will be so roiled 225 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 4: up in litigation and fights both with the other side 226 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 4: and within their own side, that they tire themselves out 227 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 4: and ends up being not a good strategy because it 228 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 4: was not particularly well thought out. Look, you know, separate 229 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 4: apart from the legal defeats that some of these moves 230 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 4: have suffered at the hands of courts, there have been 231 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 4: withdrawals of some of these things on Trump's own part right, 232 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 4: because they don't think these things. They don't think these 233 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 4: things out. They have a blunder bus approach, and they 234 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 4: say this is bad, so we're going to eliminate all 235 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 4: of this. But they don't define what this is. And 236 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 4: the example I keep coming back to is in the 237 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 4: first term, in the first week, they issued this broad 238 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 4: and sweeping so called Muslim band, but they didn't distinguish 239 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 4: between who was allowed to come back and who wasn't, 240 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 4: who's allowed entry and who wasn't. And there was this 241 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 4: huge question for a while because they hadn't addressed the 242 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 4: issue of whether or not Green card holders were included 243 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 4: or excluded, right, And that keeps happening with these guys 244 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 4: because they value speed over accuracy and fairness, No. 245 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: For sure, And I mean that's what we're seeing here 246 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: is we see them making a lot of mistakes because 247 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: they're moving too quickly and because they don't ultimately have 248 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: an ethos, you know, except move fast and break things 249 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: that are not theirs to break. Really, I'm glad you're 250 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: being optimistic because I often try to figure out there's 251 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: some some place for optimism in this whole catastrophe. So 252 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, you know, it definitely seems like the courts 253 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: are going to say you can't do this stuff. Now 254 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: here's my question. When the courts say you can't do 255 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: this stuff, you could definitely see Maybe I don't know 256 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: who will be the first in Trump world to ignore 257 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: the courts. My guess is that Russ Vott is going 258 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: to be high on that list because he has done 259 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: it before, right and Trump one point zero he refused 260 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: to release the money, and for Ukraine he messed around 261 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: with impounding the funds. So I'm wondering with the funds 262 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: that were impounded releasing them. So I'm wondering if you 263 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: what make me feel better about what happens when they 264 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: ignore the law. 265 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 4: Well, so far, and one of your student listeners will 266 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 4: correct me and us if I'm wrong. There's been a 267 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 4: defiance of law and clear interpretations of law. There is 268 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 4: defiance and a breach of the law related to Inspectors General. 269 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 4: That's one item I didn't take off my earlier list 270 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 4: because there's clearly a requirement that you must give thirty 271 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 4: days notice to Congress and an explanation as to why 272 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 4: you're taking that action against people are supposed to be 273 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 4: independent and above and beyond. 274 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 3: And outside of politics. 275 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 4: There has not been that I can think of, a 276 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 4: court order or injunction sustained all the way to the 277 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 4: Supreme Court that the Trump administration has said, f you, 278 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 4: we're not going to do it. That would be that 279 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 4: would be a real, real crisis. And my optimism is 280 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 4: and I don't know how well founded it is is 281 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 4: that we haven't seen that kind of absolutely clear, concrete, 282 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 4: deliberate direct defiance at a court order, vetted all the 283 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 4: way to the top, and I hope never to see it. 284 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: I love that I'll take that to the bank. 285 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: I wouldn't. 286 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know which bank will that deposit. 287 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 4: But hopefully that's the case. Look, it still happens to 288 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 4: be true that the Trump folks, you know, for sure, 289 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 4: at least at this point, but even you know, definitionally 290 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 4: autocratic societies. I've had this conversation with Gary Kasparrow on 291 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: a number of occasions, and wonder White is Putin is 292 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: basically a dictator, and you have them in other parts 293 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 4: of the world, and they can do whatever they want, 294 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 4: and they're acknowledged to have the authority to do whatever 295 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 4: they want. They revel in their dictator status. And yet 296 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 4: even they seek, you know, even as they break the law, 297 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 4: they seek to cloak themselves in legality and in constitutionality 298 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 4: and in norms, and they're always trying to defend what 299 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 4: they're doing, even as they imprison people like Alexi Navalni. 300 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 4: Now it may be all bullshit and a sham. There's 301 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 4: still something that autocrats are fretful about if they're overly seen, overly, 302 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 4: dramatically and directly defying the rule of law, even though 303 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 4: it happens all the time. 304 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 3: If that makes any sense. 305 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. I would love if we're going to just 306 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: be anxious here and talk about Gary kasprov what do 307 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: we think. It strikes me that, like the worst case scenario, 308 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of people who are very smart, who 309 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: I know, who I'm friends with, I have a lot 310 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: of anxiety about America turning into Russia. That is not, 311 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: in my mind, I think a likely scenario for any 312 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: number of reasons. And it sounds like you also believe that. 313 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you could sort of make me 314 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: feel better because I'm very stressed out. Thank you. 315 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 4: So there are other defenses, not the ones that we 316 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 4: normally think about. Separate from the courts and separate from Congress, 317 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 4: which has been basically supine. Hope springs eternal. That Congress 318 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 4: and the Senate and Center Republicans in particular will say, 319 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 4: you know, hey, we created this thing by statute, you 320 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 4: can't take it away by fiat, or hey, you know, 321 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 4: this is a totally unqualified person for this very important, 322 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: sensitive cabinet position. We can't do that, you know, at 323 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 4: any moment. I'm not holding my breath. That can happen 324 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 4: if there's the thing that has long been predicted and 325 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 4: has never come to pass, that Trump and his cronies 326 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 4: over extend to such an extent that people other than 327 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 4: Lisa Rakowski and now Mitch McConnell, you know, stand in 328 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 4: their way. So you know, there is that structural check. 329 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 4: There's also the courts, and the courts don't always decide 330 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 4: it was all Trump. But separate from that, there's other 331 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 4: things like public sentiment, and it is true, not often, 332 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 4: certainly not always, public sentiment when it is overwhelmingly negative 333 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 4: about something causes the Trump folks to change course. That 334 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 4: happened when you had separations of children from their parents 335 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 4: in the last term. And there's yet another thing, by 336 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 4: the way, you know, we haven't talked about tariffs yet. 337 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 4: There's all this controversy and pretty much consensus with respect 338 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 4: to anyone who's intelligent about economics about the inflationary pressure 339 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 4: the tariffs would cause. In particular, not just inflationary pressure, 340 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 4: but other diplomatic fiascos and ruination of our allies and 341 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 4: relationships with our allies with Canada and Mexico. On the 342 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 4: day that those tariffs were going to go into effect, well, 343 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 4: I don't know if you call it the fifth branch 344 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 4: of government for Donald Trump, but the stock market began 345 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 4: to tank, right, That. 346 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: Really is the fifth branch of government for Donald Trump. Yeah. 347 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's like there's the executive, there's the judiciary, 348 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 4: there's the legislative, and then there's the now with the Nasdaq. 349 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 4: That wouldn't give a lot of political scientists and political 350 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: theorists a lot of comfort. But it's not like there 351 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 4: are not things that give Trump pause. There are, and 352 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 4: maybe in combination and when when you know, stitch together 353 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 4: shrewdly by Democrats, although I don't see that. 354 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: Ahead of yourself. Their breaks at the moment together shrewdly, yes. 355 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 4: Stitch together truly rudely. Maybe something can happen. You just 356 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 4: don't know. I mean, some people are saying, look again, 357 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 4: it's only it's been five minutes. 358 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: No, I know, it feels like it's been. 359 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 4: Five minutes nineteen days and it takes some time. 360 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: But when people listen this, it'll be twenty one days continue, yes, 361 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 1: or twenty days or whatever. 362 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 4: It's also the case because of the incompetence of these 363 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 4: guys in so many areas and their lack of care 364 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 4: in vetting and doing so many other things. This is 365 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 4: not a great and most shrewd strategy, but I'm quite 366 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 4: confident that there will be overreaches of such significance and 367 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 4: opposition that there's going to be a straw that breaks 368 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 4: the camel's back with respect to at least one or 369 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 4: more of these things. It's just going to happen because 370 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 4: because you just can't move. I used a terrible analogy 371 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 4: on the podcast with Joyce fans Insider Fansider podcast. 372 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: Yes, tell me about cafe and now I'm just kidding, actually, 373 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: joy Yeah, Joyce Fancy is really one of the great 374 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: So anyway, yes. 375 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 4: He's terrific, and she was polite enough not to laugh 376 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 4: at my metaphor. But even if it's the case that 377 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 4: you find yourself in an inopportune place at the bottom 378 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 4: of the sea somewhere, or deep diving, and there's some 379 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 4: menacing fish or you know, a whale or a shark 380 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 4: or some you know some other thing and you need 381 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 4: to get up to the surface for safety, you can't 382 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 4: just rush up to the surface. 383 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 3: Because of this thing called the bends. 384 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 4: You will dive, you know, either an equally quick or 385 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 4: quicker death if you rush to the top. So that's 386 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 4: my lame analogy in nature of the need to even 387 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 4: if there's some cause to fix something or do something differently. 388 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 4: You know, slowfulness is not good, and government often moves 389 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 4: too slowly. But doing this at too great a speed 390 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 4: can do more injury than good. 391 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean obviously, but it is interesting to me, 392 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: like we'll watch this sort of lawlessness and the zeal right, 393 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: the delight at disassembling things like USA and the EPA, 394 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: and this sort of regit the federal government. And I wonder, 395 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: you know, as someone who it's so you know, to 396 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: me in my own personal history, right, I had a 397 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: grandfather who was jailed by Republican Congress, I mean for 398 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 1: his opinions, for refusing to name names. I wonder in 399 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: your mind, like the rage that these people have towards 400 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: the federal government. I mean, is I think about their 401 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: fury towards the Federal Bureau of Investigations, which is, you know, 402 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: has it ever had a head who was not a 403 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: white Republican man. 404 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 3: Not in memory, not in recent times, right. 405 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: I mean, what do you? I mean? It feels like 406 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: these people have gone through a blender. 407 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: It's amazing how they have the ability to maintain and 408 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 4: maybe it's like a higher order intelligence to be able 409 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 4: to maintain such cognitive dissonance. And say, on the one hand, 410 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 4: you support the blue, you support law enforcement, and on 411 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 4: the other hand not only support full pardons and commutations 412 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 4: for people who are seen in black and white to 413 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 4: be beating and assaulting officers, but also now to be 414 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 4: cheering the idea that the prosecutors who in good faith 415 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 4: pursued those investigations and prosecutions god in open court convictions 416 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 4: either by guilty plea or by guilty verdict upheld by 417 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 4: judges appointed by both Democrats and Republicans, some are many 418 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 4: appointed by Trump himself. They should be investigated and punished 419 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 4: for doing their jobs. How you keep that in equipoised 420 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 4: with the idea that you're pro law enforcement. I don't 421 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 4: even understand. So I don't know if it's people who 422 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 4: think that way are geniuses or imbeciles, but it's not 423 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: something in between. 424 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: Yes, it's very haphazard, and I think the good news 425 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: is that we're seeing the court say you can't do that, 426 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: and someday we may see Republicans in Congress do the same, 427 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: but we may not. Right, not necessarily necessary, right, I 428 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: guess terrifyingly. 429 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 4: I think part of the explanation is nobody cares about 430 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 4: process anymore, whether it's due process or something else. And 431 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 4: that's how you can have these competing ideas that should 432 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 4: give any normal person cognitive dissonance in your head. It's 433 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 4: not that anyone is pro police, pro law enforcement, or 434 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 4: anti law enforcement. You're pro law enforcement when they go 435 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 4: after the people you don't like, and you're anti law 436 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 4: enforcement when they go after the people you do to like. Right, 437 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 4: So it's all outcome determinative. So you know, if a 438 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 4: senator votes, you know, for Trump on something, whether it's 439 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 4: on principle or not, that's a good senator. That's a 440 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 4: good Republican. If senator does not, that senator should be primary, 441 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 4: even if it is on principle. 442 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: Right. 443 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 4: So, this idea of being pro trade or anti tariff, 444 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 4: or pro First Amendment or anti First Amendment or pro 445 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 4: or con anything one enforcement or otherwise, those things don't 446 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 4: matter anymore. It's all about whether or not it was 447 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 4: your team or not. It's become you know, as many 448 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 4: many many other people have noted before me, tribal and 449 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 4: almost like a blood sport. 450 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: But it's also just filthy to trump. The nuances of 451 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: it don't matter, it's if you are our guy or not. 452 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: I do think though, what you're saying about legality makes 453 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: me feel a little better. You know, this is just 454 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: the barrage of news and knowing that there is some 455 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: sort of larger principle, you know, legal principles in this 456 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: country still is probably a very good thing. 457 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 4: So yeah, it's not enough because the damage. You know, 458 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 4: you asked before, why are they doing these things? They 459 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 4: know what the legal shot is on some of these things, right, 460 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 4: but like still, for example, the thing that I find 461 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 4: almost the most upsetting in the farious which is the 462 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 4: issuance of questionnaires to thousands of FBI agents to see 463 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 4: if they touch. 464 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: Which smacks of McCarthyism. I mean really it is. 465 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, of all the things, right, and you know, at 466 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: the end of the day, they're protected by civil service 467 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 4: laws and maybe they'll be vindicated, but in the interim 468 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 4: and probably for a long time, any agent going forward, Democrat, Republican, nonpartisan, neutral, independent, whatever. 469 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 4: When presented with the option of opening up an investigation 470 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 4: or pursuing a lead, or joining an effort to look 471 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 4: into potential malfeasance on the part of anybody in the 472 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 4: country who has some arguable connection to Trump or Trump's family, 473 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 4: or Trump's cabinet or Trump's government or Trump's business interests, 474 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 4: has to think fricking twice. If I do this, is 475 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 4: someday someone going to take my livelihood away? 476 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: Well that's the goal. 477 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so the extraordinary chilling effect it has on 478 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 4: people who are just people, just human beings. To make 479 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 4: sure they're doing the right thing and taking care of 480 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 4: their family and putting food on the table, do they 481 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 4: have to think twice? Now, Well, maybe I'll go do 482 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: the surveillance, Maybe I'll go knock on that door, maybe 483 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 4: I'll serve the subpoena. But let me first do the calculation. 484 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 4: Will it offend anyone in the current regime, Because then ultimately, 485 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 4: maybe I will be fired, maybe I will be prosecuted, 486 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: maybe my pension will be taken away from me. And 487 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 4: that message has been delivered, whatever happens with respect to 488 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 4: the legal question. 489 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: Pre thank you for joining us. 490 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 3: Thanks Molly. 491 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: Molly White writes the newsletter citation needed. Welcome back to 492 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Molly White, thank you for having me so 493 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: I feel like you have absolutely the right background to 494 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: cover where we are because it's the intersection of tech 495 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: and crypto and everything nefarious of the last hundred years discuss. 496 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been a weird sort of coming together of 497 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 5: the tech worlds and the crypto world and the political 498 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 5: worlds in the last couple of years, and certainly in 499 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: the last week or so, we've seen that really ramping up. 500 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: So let's talk about it. Your beat was originally in 501 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: the world whenever, you know, in the time when everything 502 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: was normal, Your beat started as crypto. 503 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 5: Right right, Yeah. I started writing about crypto in twenty 504 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 5: twenty one or so, and I still write a lot 505 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 5: about crypto, but a little more broad these days as well. 506 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: Why don't we talk first about how crypto got in 507 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: bed with Trump during the campaign, Because Donald Trump is 508 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: seventy eight years old, Crypto is not his de facto 509 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: and in fact, early or on in his first presidency 510 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: he thought crypto was a scam, right, Yeah. 511 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 5: He made a really big change in his stance on 512 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 5: crypto this time around, largely thanks to the cryptocurrency industry's influence, 513 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 5: which has really increased over the handful of years since 514 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 5: his former presidency. 515 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: So what changed his heart and mind. 516 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 5: I think a lot of things really went into it. 517 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 5: I think part of it was his own personal success 518 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 5: in his crypto grifting, where he launched some NFT projects 519 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 5: and he was selling bitcoin themed sneakers and you know, 520 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 5: he was able to make some money off of it, 521 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 5: and he realized it could be lucrative for him. But 522 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 5: I think the bigger thing is that the crypto industry 523 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 5: has made itself an influential voice in politics, and they 524 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 5: were heavily involved in the twenty twenty four election cycle, 525 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 5: mostly at the congressional level in terms of where they 526 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 5: were spending money, but they were very much trying to 527 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 5: make crypto a focus of the election, something that politicians 528 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 5: needed to talk about, and they were swinging around huge 529 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 5: amounts of money to get everyone's attention. 530 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: So this is the heartwarming story of lobbying. 531 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 5: The tail is all this time, Yes it is. 532 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: And they just figured out how to get in front 533 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: of the right lobbyist. 534 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 5: I think that's true. But you know, crypto really emerged 535 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 5: on the scene as its own political force in sort 536 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 5: of an unheard of way this time around. I mean, 537 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 5: the crypto industry spent over one hundred million dollars on 538 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 5: congressional races in twenty twenty four alone, And you know, 539 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 5: compared to the size of the cryptocurrency industry, which itself 540 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 5: is very small, that was a shocking amount of money. 541 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 5: I mean they were rival big oil, big pharma, you know, 542 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 5: the typical lobbying powers. Suddenly crypto was up there in 543 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 5: the spending. I mean they were I think their super 544 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 5: pack was like number four, number five in the top 545 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 5: the list of super packs by the amounts that they 546 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 5: had raised, behind only like the Trump super packs and 547 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 5: the Senate and congressional super packs. So they were a 548 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 5: huge force in terms of spending this past cycle. 549 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: So they figured out how to spend, they lobbied, they 550 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: got Trump on board, and now they are sort of 551 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: one of the biggest pieces of the Trump coalition. Is 552 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: that right? 553 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 5: Absolutely? And I mean there's a fair bit of overlap 554 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 5: between crypto interests and the broader Silicon Valley tech interests 555 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 5: that we're seeing in Congress then sort of mulling around 556 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 5: the White House. So for example, Andresen Horowitz has a 557 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 5: number of their partners taking major roles at the White 558 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 5: House in advisory positions and so on, and they've been 559 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 5: investing in crypto and evangelizing crypto for a number of 560 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 5: years now. You know, David Sachs is the new AI 561 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 5: and crypto zar at the White House, and he obviously 562 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 5: has massive interest in both the crypto world and in 563 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 5: the tech world beyond. And I think altogether those people 564 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 5: have become their own sort of force in the White 565 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 5: House now, both officially and unofficially. 566 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: So you got the crypto lobby, then you have the 567 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: tech pros run wild in this admin and that is 568 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: Elon's crew is basically David Sacks. Do you think of 569 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: these people as all the same entity and what are 570 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: the entities and how do they interact with each other? 571 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 5: They're certainly very related entities, if they're not all the 572 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 5: same entities, but they do come from sort of similar backgrounds. 573 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 5: You know, David's and Elon Musk are both part of 574 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 5: the sort of PayPal mafia, which is, you know a 575 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 5: group of sort of early tech people who have been 576 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 5: you know, a lot of them got their start at 577 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 5: PayPal but have since become very influential in the Silicon 578 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 5: Valley world. Peter Thiel is another major member, and he 579 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 5: obviously has major political influence of his own. You know, 580 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 5: all of the andresen Horoitz people who are now installed 581 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 5: in positions of power Congress, people who themselves have not 582 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 5: only support from these interests, but often backgrounds in those 583 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 5: areas themselves. And so I think we now have this 584 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 5: massive influence from the tech oligarchy honestly in the White 585 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 5: House right now, which is quite shocking to see. I mean, 586 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 5: the tech industry has always, you know, tried to exert 587 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 5: power in the White House. I don't want to claim 588 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 5: that this is somehow a new phenomenon that you know, 589 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 5: did not happen during you know, the oba of years 590 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 5: and things like that, but it was never so overt, 591 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 5: and it was never so extreme in terms of the 592 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 5: direct influence and access of these high powered, enormously wealthy 593 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 5: people to push their own interests and to influence the 594 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 5: direction of the government in ways that will benefit them 595 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 5: personally and their businesses as well. 596 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: There are a lot of conflicts of interest here. I mean, 597 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: that is the number one thing what I want you 598 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: to talk us through because I feel like you really 599 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: have an insight on this, which is interesting and different 600 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: than a lot of other journalists. I'm wondering if you 601 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: could talk us through what you think Elon Musk is 602 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: doing right now in the federal government. And maybe it 603 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: is what he's saying he's doing, and that's fine too, 604 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: And if you want to explain that to us, that 605 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: would be great. And if you think it's something else, 606 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: please explain that. 607 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 608 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 5: I mean, it's obviously a little hard to know because 609 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 5: he has cut off so much access into what is 610 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 5: going on on Congress people even haven't been able to 611 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 5: get access to sort of observe what he's doing. But 612 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 5: you know, he has inserted himself in portions of the government, 613 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 5: you know, including the Treasury Department. You know, he's becoming 614 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 5: involved in you know, looking at data at various aid 615 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 5: agencies and other government agencies, and he's claiming that he 616 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 5: is slashing everything spending. How would he do that, Well, 617 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 5: that's sort of the question, because we're seeing some people 618 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 5: claim that he does not have access or the ability 619 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 5: to do that. So the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessant, who 620 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 5: has just confirmed, has claimed that Musk and his team 621 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 5: only have read only access. But we're simultaneously seeing reporting 622 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 5: that his team of very young programmers are making changes 623 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 5: to code bases that control federal payments and that they 624 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 5: are stopping payments to basically various line items in these 625 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 5: federal agencies books. They're stopping those payments, And so we're 626 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 5: getting conflicting information around, you know, whether or not he 627 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 5: is simply reviewing the data versus actually making changes. But 628 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 5: you know, it seems that he is trying to pursue 629 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 5: sort of a similar approach as he took when he 630 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 5: took over Twitter, which was to come in and basically 631 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 5: fire everybody and slash the entire operation down to its 632 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 5: variess bones, you know, either by forcing people to leave 633 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 5: or firing them directly, and you know, creating chaos in 634 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 5: a way that is much more higher stakes than it 635 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 5: was when he was taking over a private social media company. 636 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: So do you think that that is what's happening though, right, 637 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: because like he's offering biads, we don't know if they're real, right, 638 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: he sent the fork in the road letder to people. 639 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that any of this is 640 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: actually like how much of this is perception? How much 641 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: of this is reality. 642 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 5: It's again hard to say, I think, with especially with 643 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 5: so little transparency to what's happening, which is quite ironic 644 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 5: given Musk's claims to want transparency, you know, and to 645 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 5: be pursuing transparency, we're simultaneously seeing him shutting access down 646 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 5: to potential outside overseers to you know, there was reporting 647 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 5: out of four A four media saying that they were 648 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 5: attempting to change their interpersonal communications so that they couldn't 649 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 5: be foid and so it's really hard to say, but 650 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 5: you know, we are seeing widespread layoffs at federal agencies, 651 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 5: you know, attempts to slash funding which are getting hung 652 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 5: up in the court somewhat, but certainly you know, are 653 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 5: being attempted. And we know that Musk has access to 654 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 5: incredibly sensitive data and systems, and you know, whether or 655 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 5: not he's making changes or the extent of those changes 656 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 5: is I think what remains to be seen. 657 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: The thing is he doesn't have the authority to do 658 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: any of this all correctly. He has no congressional authority, 659 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: he doesn't work in the Festal government. All of this 660 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: is not constitutional. It's possibly illegal. You know. It's sort 661 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: of like me saying I am the czar of Palm 662 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: Springs and going and making citizens arrest. So, I mean, 663 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: it works until it doesn't, right, Right. 664 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 5: I mean, I think there are a lot of very 665 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 5: legitimate challenges to what Musk is doing in terms of 666 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 5: his status as a federal employee. If he's actually a 667 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 5: federal employee, then is he you know, subject to federal 668 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 5: laws around you know, who's allowed to have access and 669 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 5: requirements for security clearance and ethics rules and conflict of 670 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 5: interest rules. You know, is he someone who should be 671 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 5: subject to congressional review? So I think there are a 672 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 5: lot of avenues through which people can challenge this in 673 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 5: the courts, and you know, Congress can challenge this. But 674 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 5: the problem is that you know, someone needs to actually 675 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 5: step in and stop him from accessing these systems, and 676 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 5: that as of yet, has not happened. And so unless 677 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 5: you know, people are perfectly able to do illegal things, 678 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 5: you know, just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's impossible. 679 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 5: And so it is the actual enforcement of that law, 680 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 5: and you know, people in Congress, in the courts, you know, 681 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 5: getting the courage to actually do something about it that 682 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 5: I think is going to be critical in the coming days. 683 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 1: Right, And that is a real question that has no 684 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: answer really, So I wonder if you are at least 685 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: not yet, I wonder if you could talk to us 686 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: about what is Elon Musk's goal. 687 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 5: Well, I think some of it is, you know, chaos. 688 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 5: I think he enjoys the power of, you know, having 689 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 5: the federal government sort of in his control. And I 690 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 5: think a lot of it is money. You know, he 691 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 5: has very lucrative federal contracts. He now potentially has the 692 00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 5: ability to control the competition in those contracts or to 693 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 5: allocate additional contracts. He I think is also pursuing a 694 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 5: similar approach as some of the tech and crypto people, 695 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 5: where he is attempting to use this power to stop 696 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 5: anything in the way of doing what he might want 697 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 5: to be doing. So, for example, there are numerous ongoing 698 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 5: lawsuits and investigations and probes into his multiple companies and 699 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 5: to him himself personally that he I think would be 700 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 5: very interested in stopping. Certainly, we've seen that more broadly 701 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 5: with the tech companies who are hoping to see the 702 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 5: end of some of the antitrust actions that were happening 703 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 5: under Biden. The crypto industry. Pretty much every donor from 704 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 5: the crypto industry has open lawsuits against them from the 705 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 5: SEC or various other oversight agencies, and so I think 706 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 5: a lot of it is about pulling back any oversight 707 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 5: or challenge to the monopoly and to the business interests 708 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 5: of these companies and allowing them to extract even more 709 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 5: wealth from you know, everyday people via their operations that 710 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 5: you know, might otherwise be considered to be against consumer 711 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 5: protection laws or other various financial laws, or through these 712 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 5: federal contracts which can be extremely lucrative. 713 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: Right, So you think that's really the ply is just 714 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,919 Speaker 1: to avoid scrutinay, avoid prosecution. 715 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 5: I think that's a big part of it. I think 716 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 5: also it's very clear at this point that Elon Musk 717 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 5: and several others have very strong political interests of their 718 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 5: own and political agendas that they are trying to pursue 719 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 5: that are very very extreme. 720 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: Tax cuts for billionaires too. 721 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 5: Well, certainly that yes, but there's also the very sort 722 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 5: of right wing social end of it, where you know, 723 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 5: these are people who have been railing against trans people 724 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 5: and diversity inclusion programming and all of these types of things, 725 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 5: and they've all been very clear about making those primary 726 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 5: targets of their operations in the White House these days 727 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 5: as well. 728 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: Right exactly, I'm wondering if you could just talk us 729 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: through where using this goes. 730 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 5: It's really hard to say. I mean, it's it's hard 731 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 5: to see where this is going. I think, you know, 732 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 5: we're in a very uncertain time right now. I am 733 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 5: hoping that there will be widespread resistance both from elected officials, 734 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 5: from you know, government employees, from those in the judiciary 735 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 5: who are willing to, you know, defend what this country 736 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 5: is really supposed to be about, and you know, the 737 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 5: idea that there needs to be separation of powers and 738 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 5: a democratic government and all of that, and then certainly 739 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 5: resistance from you know, everyday people, the refusal to abide 740 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 5: by these attacks on American people and those you know 741 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 5: within America and outside, and you know, the attacks on 742 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 5: freedom of the press, freedom of speed, each freedom of expression, 743 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 5: all of these very core fundamental freedoms. And I think 744 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 5: we're at a really critical moment right now. 745 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I know how we got here, but also I 746 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: don't know how we got here, if that makes any sense. 747 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 5: Right. Somehow we've all seen this coming, and yet we 748 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 5: are all shocked to watch it happen. 749 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, it just is incredible, and not 750 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: incredible like incredible sunset, but incredible, like you know, watching 751 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: nuclear tests. I'm wondering if you could just for a 752 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 1: minute give us some reason to not be completely catastrophic 753 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: about those. This is where we get into therapy for me. 754 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I do you know, see those resistance 755 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 5: moments happening? You know, I think that it feels a 756 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 5: little bit like nothing's happening and like no one's doing 757 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 5: anything and that we're not seeing anything and everyone's just 758 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 5: sort of going about their lives. But I think that, 759 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 5: you know, that is something that is perhaps true if 760 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 5: you look at the front ages of some of the 761 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 5: biggest newspapers. But if you dig a little bit deeper, 762 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 5: you know, away from these media outlets that are run 763 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 5: by people who have been you know, kissing up to 764 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 5: Trump honestly and who are probably not terribly inclined to 765 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 5: report on these types of things, you actually see a 766 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 5: fair bit of resistance happening. There have been major protests 767 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 5: about various different topics, from you know, transgender healthcare bands 768 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 5: to immigration enforcement changes to the shutdown of federal agencies 769 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 5: across the country. We've seen you know, various lawmakers proposing 770 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 5: legislation or making statements that suggest that they are working 771 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 5: to fight back. In Congress, They've already been numerous lawsuits 772 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 5: challenging executive orders and the slashing of federal government employees. 773 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 5: Various judges have already issued restraining orders in some of 774 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 5: those cases to stop some of the illegal orders that 775 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 5: have come out. So, you know, I think there are 776 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 5: people who are standing up to what is happening and 777 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 5: who are demanding more from the democratically elected people who 778 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 5: are supposed to be representing us. And it's just crucial 779 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 5: that everyone, you know, make sure that we are aware 780 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 5: of what's happening, supports the people who are doing these 781 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 5: types of things, and honestly demands that type of action 782 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 5: from our elected representatives. 783 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 1: Molly White, thank you. I hope you'll come back. 784 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. 785 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 3: No moment perfectly. 786 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon, my jung fast. 787 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 2: Bad things are happening down in Texas an evergreen statement. 788 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 2: So Texas has removed one point seven million people from 789 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 2: their healthcare plans. 790 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is like reverse Medicare expansion. Right. We 791 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: saw during the Biden administration that a lot of these 792 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: states expanded Medicare that this is the opposite of that. Look, 793 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: Texas is a place where the far right loves to experiment. 794 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: It's the state that repealed Roe v. Wade a year 795 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: before Moby Wade was repealed. We're going to see, I 796 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: think more stuff like this. Not surprising, but pretty interesting 797 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: and pretty disturbing. And look at the Republicans in Texas. 798 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: The Governor Abbott and the Attorneys General Paxton are very, very, 799 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: very emboldened, and they consider themselves to be at the 800 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: forefront of Republican politics. And so that you will see 801 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: them over the next couple of years do things that 802 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: are perhaps even more beyond the pale than even Trump 803 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: World perhaps. And so this is the beginning of this, 804 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: kicking people off Medicare and children's healthcare. And I think 805 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,399 Speaker 1: you're going to see more and more of this. And 806 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: so keep an eye on Texas because it like a 807 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: bunch of other Republican read st day. It's like Tennessee 808 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: and Oklahoma. These states are laboratories for Republican anti democracy. 809 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. 810 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,359 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 811 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 812 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 813 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 814 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,240 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.