WEBVTT - Meteoric Metal and Alien Iron, Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 2>name is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to Blow

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<v Speaker 3>Your Mind, we wanted to kick off a series of

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<v Speaker 3>episodes on tools, blades, weapons, artifacts, ceremonial ornaments, and various

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<v Speaker 3>things things made by humans out of materials that came

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<v Speaker 3>from outer space, particularly stuff made from meteorite iron.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, whether you've listened to our show before or not,

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<v Speaker 2>you're probably familiar with the three age system of classifying

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<v Speaker 2>ancient civilizations, defining them by their material and the technological

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<v Speaker 2>level of advancement for that given civilization. And this is

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<v Speaker 2>not without its complexity and even its controversy, as we'll

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<v Speaker 2>get into, but it divides things into the Stone Age,

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<v Speaker 2>the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. In this series

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<v Speaker 2>of episodes from Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to be dealing predominantly with the Age of Bronze, typified

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<v Speaker 2>by its bronze production and lasting very roughly. And these

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<v Speaker 2>dates are not solid for all places and civilizations. A

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<v Speaker 2>strong caveat there from somewhere around thirty three hundred to

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<v Speaker 2>twelve hundred BCE, So we're dealing with a very amorphous

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<v Speaker 2>period of time here, and the transference into the age

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<v Speaker 2>of iron is much the same. But before we jump

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<v Speaker 2>into the key example that we're going to be looking

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<v Speaker 2>at in this episode, I just wanted to share a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of quotes to perhaps help put this time frame

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<v Speaker 2>in perspective and even cast a different light on civilization

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<v Speaker 2>before the widespread production and use of iron. Both of

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<v Speaker 2>these are from books that deal more specifically with Chinese

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<v Speaker 2>technology and Chinese history, but I believe some of the

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<v Speaker 2>takeaways from both of these quotes are just appliable across

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<v Speaker 2>the board. So this first one is a quote from

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<v Speaker 2>John Key in his book A History of China. He writes, quote, Indeed,

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<v Speaker 2>bronze came to occupy much the same position in ancient

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<v Speaker 2>China as stone. In the contemporary civilization of Egypt or

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<v Speaker 2>later those of Iran, Persia and Greece. Enormous effort was

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<v Speaker 2>devoted to producing bronzewear. Highly sophisticated ideas were expressed through it.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the earliest inscriptions were found on it, and

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<v Speaker 2>its durability has ensured that plentiful examples have survived. And

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<v Speaker 2>this other quote is from Joseph Needham, whose work we've

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<v Speaker 2>discussed in the show before, from Science and Society in

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<v Speaker 2>Ancient China quote, it looks as if the earliest kings

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<v Speaker 2>or feudal princes recognized bronze metallurgy to be the basis

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<v Speaker 2>of feudal power over the Neolithic peasantry because of the

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<v Speaker 2>superior arms which it rendered possible, and therefore they appropriated

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<v Speaker 2>that the technique of metalworking. So what I like about

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<v Speaker 2>these two quotes is I think they helped drive home

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<v Speaker 2>that bronze was not only a material for tools, but

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<v Speaker 2>a material through which culture was made manifest, as well

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<v Speaker 2>as a source of power, both in physical weaponry and

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<v Speaker 2>even just as an idea. And while these examples, again

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<v Speaker 2>are both from texts that focus exclusively on Chinese history,

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<v Speaker 2>I think you can sort of get a broader take

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<v Speaker 2>home from them, Like I said earlier, So on top

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<v Speaker 2>of that, I would say, also, I think it's essential

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<v Speaker 2>to keep in mind that the Bronze Age was far

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<v Speaker 2>from just a period between or a precursor to something

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<v Speaker 2>you know better or more advanced. It was a time

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<v Speaker 2>of great technological and cultural advancement. It was the age

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<v Speaker 2>of the wheel, of irrigation, of writing systems, enhanced weaponry,

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<v Speaker 2>and much more. And it's not merely the time before iron.

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<v Speaker 2>It is the time that gave birth to iron technology

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<v Speaker 2>as well well.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that that can really be driven home

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<v Speaker 3>in the fact that iron is not even necessarily for

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<v Speaker 3>all uses a superior metal to bronze. Bronze could be

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<v Speaker 3>considered materially superior in some ways. It's just that iron

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<v Speaker 3>is once you have the technology to smelt it and

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<v Speaker 3>then work it in the high temperatures you need, it

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<v Speaker 3>is easier to produce at mass scales and cheaper.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, there's definitely from what I've read, there's

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<v Speaker 2>definitely a period of time in which your early smelted

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<v Speaker 2>iron tools, weapons, what have you are not going to

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<v Speaker 2>be as durable and as highly efficient as the high

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<v Speaker 2>end bronze weapons and tools of that same time period.

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<v Speaker 3>But you can make more of them, right right.

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<v Speaker 2>But eventually, of course, iron comes to.

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<v Speaker 3>Dominate, especially in the form of steel.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I know some will say steel isn't strong, flesh

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<v Speaker 2>is strong, YadA, YadA, YadA, but steel is pretty strong.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I do want to start within one of the

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<v Speaker 3>regional Bronze ages. To start off today's episode by looking

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<v Speaker 3>at a very intriguing and mysterious artifact from ancient Egypt.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a dagger from the stars found buried alongside

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<v Speaker 3>the pharaoh tutin Common. So the tomb of the eighteenth

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<v Speaker 3>dynasty Egyptian pharaoh tutin Common was uncovered by the British

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<v Speaker 3>archaeologist Howard Carter and his team in nineteen twenty two.

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<v Speaker 3>Tutin Common reigned from thirteen sixty one to thirteen fifty

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<v Speaker 3>two BCE, becoming king around the age of nine or so,

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<v Speaker 3>unruling until his early death around the age of eighteen.

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<v Speaker 3>Tutin Common is thought to have been a son of

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<v Speaker 3>the pharaoh Acinaten, though from what I understand this relationship

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<v Speaker 3>is not totally certain. There is a DNA relationship to

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<v Speaker 3>another mummy that has been found that is presumed to

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<v Speaker 3>be Akinatin, but it's not known for sure. Acinatein his

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<v Speaker 3>likely father, was notable for trying to replace the traditional

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<v Speaker 3>polytheistic religion of Egypt with a It's debatable how to

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<v Speaker 3>characterize this, but a monotheistic or monoltruistic or perhaps henotheistic

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<v Speaker 3>whatever you call it, focus on single God, an emphasis

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<v Speaker 3>of one god above all the others from the Egyptian pantheon,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is the solar deity Atan, which took the

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<v Speaker 3>form of the disk of the Sun. We've talked about

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<v Speaker 3>that sort of attempt to go one God early in

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<v Speaker 3>Egypt before, but this shift did not last long after

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<v Speaker 3>Achinatin's death, and one of Tutonkommon's main accomplishments as pharaoh

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<v Speaker 3>seems to have been the restoration of the old polytheistic cults.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the rejection of new coke and the re acceptance

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<v Speaker 2>of old coke.

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<v Speaker 3>Play in the hits getting the old gang together. So

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<v Speaker 3>Tutancommon's tomb was considered a very special discovery in the

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<v Speaker 3>twentieth century because even though it had been partially looted

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<v Speaker 3>at least twice shortly after it was sealed, it was

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<v Speaker 3>still considered relatively intact compared to other tombs, so many

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<v Speaker 3>of the original grave goods were still in place. And

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<v Speaker 3>this was not really the case at all for most

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<v Speaker 3>of the other royal tombs of ancient Egypt. They were

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<v Speaker 3>mostly scoured by grave robbers thousands of years ago. This

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<v Speaker 3>is sometimes misstated as saying that that Tuten comments Tune

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<v Speaker 3>tomb had never been disturbed, and that's not true. It

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<v Speaker 3>was robbed long ago like all the rest of them,

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<v Speaker 3>it just didn't get robbed as much. And some have

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<v Speaker 3>speculated that Tuton Common's tomb was relatively well preserved because

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<v Speaker 3>the entrance got covered up by stuff and people pretty

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<v Speaker 3>quickly forgot where it was. And so when this tomb

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<v Speaker 3>was rediscovered in the twentieth century, it contained a wealth

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<v Speaker 3>of treasures and a beautiful, wonderful glimpse into the past.

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<v Speaker 3>So for a taste of the variety of objects found

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<v Speaker 3>in the tomb, I just wanted to read directly from

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<v Speaker 3>the diary entry of Howard Carter describing the day of

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<v Speaker 3>November twenty sixth, nineteen twenty two, when his team finally

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<v Speaker 3>cleared away the last of the rubble from the passageway

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<v Speaker 3>into the tomb and got the first look inside. So

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<v Speaker 3>Carter writes, quote, it was sometime before one could see

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<v Speaker 3>the hot air escaping caused the candle to flick, But

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<v Speaker 3>as soon as one's eyes became accustomed to the glimmer

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<v Speaker 3>of light, the interior of the chamber gradually loomed before one,

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<v Speaker 3>with its strange and wonderful medley of extraordinary and beautiful

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<v Speaker 3>objects heaped upon one another. There was naturally short suspense

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<v Speaker 3>for those present who could not see. When Lord Carnivon

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<v Speaker 3>said to me, can you see anything? I replied to him, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it is wonderful. I then, with precaution, made the whole

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<v Speaker 3>sufficiently large for both of us to see. With the

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<v Speaker 3>light of an electric torch as well as an additional candle,

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<v Speaker 3>we looked in. Our sensations and astonishment are difficult to describe,

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<v Speaker 3>as the better light revealed to us the marvelous collection

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<v Speaker 3>of treasures. Two strange ebony black effigies of a king,

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<v Speaker 3>gold sandaled bearing staff and mace loomed out from the

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<v Speaker 3>cloak of darkness. Gilded couches in strange forms lion headed,

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<v Speaker 3>hathor headed, and beast infernal, exquisitely painted inlaid and ornamental caskets,

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<v Speaker 3>flo alabaster vases, some beautifully executed of lotus and papyrus,

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<v Speaker 3>device strange black shrines with a gilded monster snake appearing

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<v Speaker 3>from within, quite ordinary looking white chests, finely carved chairs,

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<v Speaker 3>a golden inlaid throne, a heap of large, curious white

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<v Speaker 3>oviform boxes beneath our very eyes, on the threshold, a

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<v Speaker 3>lovely lodiform wishing cup in translucent alabaster, stools of all

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<v Speaker 3>shapes and design of both common and rare materials, and lastly,

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<v Speaker 3>a confusion of overturned parts of chariots glinting with gold

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<v Speaker 3>peering from amongst which was a mannikin the first impression

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<v Speaker 3>of which suggested the property room of an opera of

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<v Speaker 3>a vanished civilization. Our sensations were bewildering and full of

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<v Speaker 3>strange emotion. We questioned one another as to the meaning

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<v Speaker 3>of it all. Was it a tomb or merely a cache?

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<v Speaker 3>A sealed doorway between the two sentinel statues proved there

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<v Speaker 3>was more beyond, and with the numerous cartouches bearing the

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<v Speaker 3>name of Touton common on most of the objects before us,

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<v Speaker 3>there was little doubt that there behind was the grave

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<v Speaker 3>of that pharaoh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I like the atmosphere he captures here in

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<v Speaker 2>this description.

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<v Speaker 3>One of my favorite things is the description of the

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<v Speaker 3>disassembled parts of the chariot, all there piled up in

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<v Speaker 3>the tomb. Anyway, documenting the contents of the tomb went

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<v Speaker 3>on for years after the initial discovery, and one of

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<v Speaker 3>the objects found later this was in nineteen twenty five.

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<v Speaker 3>This was buried right along with the pharaoh's body. One

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<v Speaker 3>of these artifacts. It was a beautiful dagger. In fact,

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<v Speaker 3>there were two daggers buried with tooton common, one made

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<v Speaker 3>of gold and another made of iron. And ironically it's

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<v Speaker 3>the iron dagger that I would like to focus on,

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<v Speaker 3>So Rob, I've got some pictures for you to look

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<v Speaker 3>at here, this sort of like with different sides of

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<v Speaker 3>theagger facing and then different types of illumination. But the

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<v Speaker 3>iron dagger is a little over a foot long, and

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<v Speaker 3>it was found not only within the king's tomb but

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<v Speaker 3>with his mummified remains inside the inner coffin, and in

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<v Speaker 3>fact not only in the inner coffin, but literally inside

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<v Speaker 3>the king's wrappings, so wrapped up with him up against

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<v Speaker 3>his thigh, the gold dagger was apparently on his abdomen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a very splendid looking weapon, and there are

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<v Speaker 2>no shortage of images of this, you can easily look

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<v Speaker 2>up online.

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<v Speaker 3>So the knife has a handle made out of gold

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<v Speaker 3>with a crystal knob on the end, sort of very

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<v Speaker 3>smooth and rounded off crystal knob, and a golden sheath

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<v Speaker 3>decorated with images of on one part a repeating feather pattern.

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<v Speaker 3>There are flowers I think maybe supposed to be Lilly's,

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<v Speaker 3>and there's also a jackal's head. And surprisingly, this dagger

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<v Speaker 3>made out of iron remained relatively rust free for all

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<v Speaker 3>these centuries. Though it does have blemishes, they're not rust Instead,

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<v Speaker 3>it has black spots in the middle that to me

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<v Speaker 3>almost look like lunar maria. They're these sort of you know, strange,

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<v Speaker 3>beautiful little black depressions that have almost geographical looking edges.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So the stagger made of iron was instantly quite

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<v Speaker 3>interesting to experts because it was made of iron. Tutin

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<v Speaker 3>Common lived at a time when iron artifacts were quite

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<v Speaker 3>rare in Egypt, not completely non existent, but precious and few.

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<v Speaker 3>We associate iron today with raw utility. I think of

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<v Speaker 3>like just stacks of rebar and stuff, you know, Like

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<v Speaker 3>we think of its hardness and toughness and it's ready availability.

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<v Speaker 3>So of course iron and steel steel being a product

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<v Speaker 3>of iron, are thought of as useful for making durable

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<v Speaker 3>workaday tools, machine parts, in architecture, for making bridges and

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<v Speaker 3>framing buildings and so forth. But in Totincman's Egypt, the

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<v Speaker 3>evidence indicates that the rare iron artifacts that did exist

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<v Speaker 3>were treated instead as sacred, decorative and ceremonial items, more

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<v Speaker 3>like we treat gold and silver today, except perhaps even

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<v Speaker 3>more precious. Now, why would something as cheap, abundant and

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<v Speaker 3>mundane as iron be treated as precious sacred material. It

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<v Speaker 3>seems to be because at the time iron was anything

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<v Speaker 3>but abundant and mundane. The mundane iron that we think

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<v Speaker 3>of today is extracted from iron ore that we mine

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<v Speaker 3>out of the ground, and then we extract in pure

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<v Speaker 3>metallic form from its ore form in extremely hot furnaces.

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<v Speaker 3>And while there were plenty of iron ore deposits in

0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 3>the deserts of Egypt, there was not a widespread industry

0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.439
<v Speaker 3>that was able to separate pure metallic iron from its

0:13:54.559 --> 0:14:00.120
<v Speaker 3>ore in the region until several hundred years later. I

0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 3>was iron harder to work with and extract than other metals,

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.800
<v Speaker 3>such as the copper tin alloy that forms the basis

0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.960
<v Speaker 3>of ancient bronze. I think that there's sort of a

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.680
<v Speaker 3>more complicated answer and a sort of a simpler answer.

0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.480
<v Speaker 3>And the simpler answer is basically higher melting point, like

0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.880
<v Speaker 3>it takes more energy to extract iron from its ore,

0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and it takes more heat to make it malleable and

0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 3>workable once it is extracted.

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I remember we went into some of this

0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.880
<v Speaker 2>back when we did an episode on the One Ring

0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.000
<v Speaker 2>of the Lord of the Rings, and you know, talking

0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.560
<v Speaker 2>about what kind of metals would would melt or not

0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.680
<v Speaker 2>melt the constraints that are laid out in the text.

0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:43.720
<v Speaker 3>However, there was one source of pure or to some

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 3>degree pure metallic iron available before the smelting process was developed,

0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 3>and that source of metallic iron was meteorites, chunks of

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 3>iron that fell from space. So experts have, for a

0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.320
<v Speaker 3>law some times suggested that maybe King Tut's dagger, and

0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 3>not just his dagger, but other iron artifacts that were

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.760
<v Speaker 3>also found within the tomb, and other iron artifacts from

0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:13.240
<v Speaker 3>ancient Egypt from this period and before, were in fact

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.080
<v Speaker 3>meteoric in origin, that they were hammered out of iron

0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 3>that fell to Earth from the sky.

0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.960
<v Speaker 2>So your exploitive headline here, of course, is ancient Egyptian

0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 2>to use space weapons. And I've seen various indulgences of

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing. But I mean, yeah, you're not

0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 2>too far off the mark with that that even if

0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.320
<v Speaker 2>you are implying things that are not true as well.

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.480
<v Speaker 2>I've even seen alien weapons mentioned before.

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.880
<v Speaker 3>Now, before those of you get too excited, no this

0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 3>is not ancient alien stuff. No, this would be. This

0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.200
<v Speaker 3>does not need to be a gift from aliens that

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 3>came from above. Because meteorites still land on Earth today.

0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.640
<v Speaker 3>They land naturally. People can find them.

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.240
<v Speaker 2>Right right, And that of course is especially true if

0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:02.600
<v Speaker 2>you if in one or two situations with meteorites, is

0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 2>it dramatic in its entry or do you have an

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 2>environment in which objects like this are easy to find,

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.400
<v Speaker 2>such as a desert. So you will find various desert

0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.520
<v Speaker 2>environments where there is a long tradition of gathering such

0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.120
<v Speaker 2>meteorites because they stand out more. But you know, even

0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.400
<v Speaker 2>if you see or think you see something fall, you

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:28.040
<v Speaker 2>can also get into trouble trying to find what fell

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:32.160
<v Speaker 2>from the sky. We've talked about the phenomena of star

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.600
<v Speaker 2>jelly before. This is where someone sees a shooting star

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 2>or thinks the meteorite has fallen in their general vicinity,

0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and they go out into the woods and they start

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.000
<v Speaker 2>poking around. Do they find something that they think looks

0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.440
<v Speaker 2>weird And it may be like just some sort of

0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.120
<v Speaker 2>slimy substance in the forest. It's a slimy substance that

0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.400
<v Speaker 2>was always there, or it is frequently there, but they

0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.200
<v Speaker 2>just never went out and poked it and looked for

0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.160
<v Speaker 2>it before. So ultimately you have to know what you're doing.

0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.080
<v Speaker 2>But a desert environment can be a real gift to

0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:00.160
<v Speaker 2>the meteorite hunter.

0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.240
<v Speaker 3>That's right. So what is a meteorite, Well, a meteorite is,

0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.200
<v Speaker 3>in short, any solid natural object that falls from space

0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.200
<v Speaker 3>through our atmosphere and reaches the surface of the Earth intact.

0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.520
<v Speaker 3>And this usually means a chunk of a rocky asteroid.

0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.199
<v Speaker 3>It seems that's what it is in most cases, but

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.880
<v Speaker 3>some cases could possibly mean pieces of comets or even

0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.879
<v Speaker 3>pieces of other planets. Sometimes there'll be an impact and

0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.080
<v Speaker 3>a piece of Mars or something else breaks off and

0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.119
<v Speaker 3>will end up falling to Earth somehow. Now, most meteorites

0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 3>found on Earth are not primarily made of iron. There

0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:43.400
<v Speaker 3>are three main types of meteorites. You've got stony meteorites,

0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.160
<v Speaker 3>which are made mostly of silicon based rock. There are

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.879
<v Speaker 3>iron meteorites, which are primarily made of solid metal, mostly

0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 3>iron with some nickel and other trace metals. And then

0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.440
<v Speaker 3>there's a hybrid category, which are often considered quite beautiful,

0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.600
<v Speaker 3>maybe the most visually striking of all of them, the

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 3>stony iron meteorites, which are a pretty close to even

0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 3>mix of iron metal and silicate rock. Now, iron meteorites

0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.160
<v Speaker 3>are not the most common types of meteorites to fall

0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.719
<v Speaker 3>to Earth. I've read estimates that they're only about like

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.040
<v Speaker 3>five or six percent of meteorite falls. But they are

0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.280
<v Speaker 3>sometimes easier to find than stony meteorites. And this might

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.080
<v Speaker 3>be in part due to their durability and the environment

0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.399
<v Speaker 3>and really stick around, but also probably in part because

0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 3>they look weirder and more alien. And stony meteorites can

0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.240
<v Speaker 3>look a lot of different ways, but Rob, I just

0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 3>attached a few examples for you to look at. A

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of stony meteorites you could easily mistake for an

0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.440
<v Speaker 3>earth based rock, but iron meteorites more often, I guess

0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.920
<v Speaker 3>you could still mistake them for an earth based rock,

0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.480
<v Speaker 3>but more of them look like really strange.

0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they have a very novel appearance that even the

0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.159
<v Speaker 2>novice would would likely look at and think, well, that's interesting.

0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.800
<v Speaker 2>I should pick that up and maybe take this back

0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.679
<v Speaker 2>and show it to someone who knows what's up with rocks,

0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.959
<v Speaker 2>because yeah, they have this fascinating kind of you know,

0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.040
<v Speaker 2>like cool liquid kind of appearance, with all these dimples

0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:13.720
<v Speaker 2>and creases and so forth.

0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.199
<v Speaker 3>Why is this a metal brain the size of a

0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.640
<v Speaker 3>bear in the middle of the desert? What is that?

0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.280
<v Speaker 3>Iron meteorites are thought to probably be the remaining cores

0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.080
<v Speaker 3>of asteroids that at some point asteroids or parts of

0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.920
<v Speaker 3>former planetesimals that at some point melted and then re solidified.

0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.840
<v Speaker 3>They're mostly made of iron, Like I said, they have

0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 3>some nickel content, as well as other traces of minerals

0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.679
<v Speaker 3>and metals, some cobalt content, some phosphorus, some sulfur, and

0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.320
<v Speaker 3>so forth. They are often found on Earth covered in

0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.800
<v Speaker 3>a black or rusty crust of iron oxide that forms

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.960
<v Speaker 3>as they travel through the atmosphere. And there are two

0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.480
<v Speaker 3>primary minerals found in iron meteorites. You've got camosite, which

0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 3>has relatively less nickel, and tainite, which has relatively more.

0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.640
<v Speaker 3>Within iron meteorites, these two minerals, chemosite and taanite are

0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 3>quite often found in an interesting interlocking crystal structure which

0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.640
<v Speaker 3>when you cut a cross section of one of these

0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.960
<v Speaker 3>meteorites and you treat it with a weak or diluted acid,

0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.520
<v Speaker 3>it reveals this repeating arrangement of lines, known as a

0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 3>Vidminstottin pattern, And to try to describe this, it looks

0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.320
<v Speaker 3>kind of like a texture of infinite triangles within triangles,

0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.439
<v Speaker 3>or you might say like a fractal representation of a

0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.000
<v Speaker 3>capital letter A in the English alphabet.

0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it looks very very sci fi, very futuristic, kind

0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 2>of like some sort of you know, a chrome etching

0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.359
<v Speaker 2>of the interior scaffolding of the death Star or something.

0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.360
<v Speaker 3>To come back to our stuff on anomalous imagery, it's

0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.159
<v Speaker 3>one of those things that there are all kinds of

0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.560
<v Speaker 3>patterns like this in nature that make people say that's technology,

0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.720
<v Speaker 3>but that's just what these crystals do. And in fact,

0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.400
<v Speaker 3>the way this specifically look seems to be a result

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:13.600
<v Speaker 3>of creating a two dimensional cross sectional representation of an

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:18.639
<v Speaker 3>underlying three dimensional structure that's known as an octahedral. So

0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:23.959
<v Speaker 3>an octahedron is a polyhedron, a three dimensional structure with

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.399
<v Speaker 3>eight faces. So you can picture like two four sided

0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 3>pyramids joined at the square base, or if you're a

0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.280
<v Speaker 3>D and D player, you just picture a D eight die.

0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's sematar damage.

0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.399
<v Speaker 3>So the octahedral structure is created by the interaction of

0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:44.800
<v Speaker 3>these two different minerals chemisite and tanite, they form these

0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.760
<v Speaker 3>different bands and boundaries, and then when they come together

0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 3>like that, and you cut through the middle of a

0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 3>meteorite and you look at the pattern it makes, it's

0:21:51.359 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 3>this vidmin Stottin pattern. Now, we might come back and

0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.840
<v Speaker 3>talk more about iron meteorites themselves in the next episode.

0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 3>But an interesting question is, so it was proposed long

0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.600
<v Speaker 3>ago that King Tut's dagger, as well as many of

0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.840
<v Speaker 3>these other iron artifacts, were made out of meteorite iron.

0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.760
<v Speaker 3>But is the dagger really meteorite iron? And if so,

0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.800
<v Speaker 3>how could we know? Well, there have been multiple investigations

0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:25.960
<v Speaker 3>of this over the years and they've come up with

0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.840
<v Speaker 3>For a while, they came up with conflicting results. There

0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:33.720
<v Speaker 3>was some controversy over this, were different results, different investigators

0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:36.520
<v Speaker 3>came to different conclusions. But it seems to be that

0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:41.000
<v Speaker 3>the more recent research points very strongly to a meteoric origin.

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:44.160
<v Speaker 3>So I'll mention a couple of studies. One is by

0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.760
<v Speaker 3>Daniellocomelli at All that was published in the journal Metiorritics

0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:52.200
<v Speaker 3>and Planetary Science in the year twenty sixteen, and it's

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:57.640
<v Speaker 3>called the Meteoritic Origin of Toutencommon's iron dagger blade. Now,

0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.760
<v Speaker 3>one thing that is an obstacle when you investigating this

0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:04.560
<v Speaker 3>sort of thing is method because modern science has lots

0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:08.879
<v Speaker 3>of very powerful tools of chemical analysis, but many of

0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.480
<v Speaker 3>them are destructive techniques, so you would have to destroy

0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.679
<v Speaker 3>some small part of the artifact in order to analyze it.

0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:20.439
<v Speaker 3>And for obvious historical preservation reasons, researchers wanted to avoid

0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 3>having to destroy part of a priceless historical dagger in

0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.640
<v Speaker 3>order to figure out what it's made of. So this investigation,

0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.320
<v Speaker 3>which by the way, the team was made up of

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:35.920
<v Speaker 3>both Italian and Egyptian researchers, they use non destructive methods,

0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.240
<v Speaker 3>so they analyze the blade with a non destructive imaging

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:45.040
<v Speaker 3>technique called X ray fluorescence spectrometry to determine the composition

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 3>of the blade. So the way that works is you

0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.119
<v Speaker 3>bombard the blade with some radiation. They use like a

0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 3>portable X ray scanner. You bombard it with some radiation

0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:59.280
<v Speaker 3>and then that radiation causes the atoms in the blade

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 3>to floor to give off light energy as they're you know,

0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.359
<v Speaker 3>as the radiation hits the electrons that are orbiting the

0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 3>atoms and then causes some of them to fall down

0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.760
<v Speaker 3>to lower energy levels and that puts off radiation in return,

0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:15.399
<v Speaker 3>and by analyzing what gets reflected back, you can see

0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:18.600
<v Speaker 3>what types of elements that it's made of. And what

0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:22.000
<v Speaker 3>they found was that the composition of the blade was

0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:26.439
<v Speaker 3>iron with a high percentage of nickel and cobalt. So

0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:29.880
<v Speaker 3>I think they found that it was mostly iron, with

0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:33.760
<v Speaker 3>ten point eight percent by weight nickel and zero point

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 3>five to eight percent by weight cobalt, and these numbers

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:41.200
<v Speaker 3>are are not to be found in earth based iron generally.

0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:44.959
<v Speaker 3>Studies have found that earth based iron extracted from before

0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.200
<v Speaker 3>like the eighteen hundreds, tends to always have less than

0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:49.760
<v Speaker 3>four percent nickel by weight.

0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I was reading some sources about this as well,

0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, a lot of it seems to come back

0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>to the nickel, though.

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.560
<v Speaker 3>I've read some criticisms that you shouldn't go by the

0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.520
<v Speaker 3>nickel alone and that to really be sure you should

0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:04.159
<v Speaker 3>look at like some other comparison points as well, like

0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:07.200
<v Speaker 3>the ratio of nickel to cobalt. I think some other

0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:08.000
<v Speaker 3>things as well.

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was one paper I was looking at Albert

0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>Jambond from twenty seventeen Bronze age iron meteoritic or not.

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And this is the additional subheading subtitle a chemical strategy.

0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:25.359
<v Speaker 2>And in this one they pointed out like weathering is

0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:27.760
<v Speaker 2>also sometimes something that has to be taken into place

0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:34.240
<v Speaker 2>given the nickel levels that can be detected, and it

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:36.639
<v Speaker 2>may have to do with like basically a weathering away

0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:38.879
<v Speaker 2>of some of the nickel content at least on the

0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:40.879
<v Speaker 2>testable portions of an artifact.

0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:44.800
<v Speaker 3>But from what I could tell, most researchers are pretty

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:48.880
<v Speaker 3>well convinced by this and other recent studies. There's another

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.600
<v Speaker 3>one I'm gonna mention in a second saying that this

0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:55.679
<v Speaker 3>probably really is meteorite. So speaking to the BBC, the

0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:58.760
<v Speaker 3>lead author, Daniella Coomelli, who by the way, is that

0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:02.920
<v Speaker 3>she's an experimental physic assist affiliated with the Polytechnic University

0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:07.200
<v Speaker 3>of Milan, she sounds pretty confident. She says meteoric iron

0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:09.960
<v Speaker 3>is clearly indicated by the presence of this high percentage

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.760
<v Speaker 3>of nickel, and in fact, the authors of this study

0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:19.040
<v Speaker 3>from twenty sixteen even matched the composition of the blade

0:26:19.040 --> 0:26:22.239
<v Speaker 3>of Tutencommon's dagger to that of a known meteorite in

0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:25.200
<v Speaker 3>the region, one which landed about two hundred and forty

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:29.680
<v Speaker 3>kilometers west of the city of Alexandria. They also argue

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:32.920
<v Speaker 3>that the blade shows what they call a high manufacturing quality,

0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:36.280
<v Speaker 3>which is not found in some of the other simple

0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:40.440
<v Speaker 3>artifacts made out of meteorite iron from this period in Egypt.

0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:44.159
<v Speaker 3>So it shows that someone at this time had the

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.280
<v Speaker 3>ability to work with iron at a high level. But

0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:49.920
<v Speaker 3>this type of craftsmanship must have been rare.

0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:57.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, rare craftsmanship besitting of a rare material. There's

0:26:57.600 --> 0:26:59.919
<v Speaker 2>one little bit I want to side here. This is

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:03.400
<v Speaker 2>from the Brian M. Fagan book The Seventy Great Inventions

0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:07.120
<v Speaker 2>of the Ancient World. Paul T. Kratoc is the main

0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:10.720
<v Speaker 2>writer on a chapter in that that deals with with

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:15.879
<v Speaker 2>iron and other metals, and Kratak mentions the dagger of Tutankammon,

0:27:16.440 --> 0:27:18.639
<v Speaker 2>and there's an excellent photo of it in that book.

0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:23.080
<v Speaker 2>But then he adds an additional detail from the following century.

0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:27.560
<v Speaker 2>So this is a different culture because as we've already

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:32.160
<v Speaker 2>mentioned there there are other examples of meteoric iron being

0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:40.360
<v Speaker 2>used in very regal, very ornamental pieces like this and

0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:44.639
<v Speaker 2>this one, this particular one is referred to in a letter.

0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:46.760
<v Speaker 2>This is from twelve to fifty BCE. We have a

0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:51.520
<v Speaker 2>letter from the Hittite ruler Tatusilius the third to the

0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:55.439
<v Speaker 2>king of Assyria, and in this letter he apologizes for

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:59.560
<v Speaker 2>not being able to supply iron and instead hopes that

0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:03.359
<v Speaker 2>the guilt to a single accompanying iron blade will be

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:08.760
<v Speaker 2>acceptable Socratic rights quote. So in twelve fifty BC, a

0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 2>single iron blade from the one available source of iron

0:28:12.440 --> 0:28:18.120
<v Speaker 2>was an appropriate placiatory gift to another monarch. So, I mean,

0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:20.000
<v Speaker 2>you can also see that in the fact that, yeah,

0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:23.879
<v Speaker 2>King tut is buried with one of these blades, you know,

0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:26.600
<v Speaker 2>within his wrappings. But you know, here's this other case

0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:29.320
<v Speaker 2>where it's like it just more evidence that like, these

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:31.960
<v Speaker 2>things were so highly valued. These are the kind of

0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:35.320
<v Speaker 2>things that kings gave to each other, you know, these

0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:37.840
<v Speaker 2>are the kind of things that kings were buried with.

0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 2>But Kradack also points out that mere centuries later, iron

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:46.640
<v Speaker 2>making industry would end up stretching across Eurasia. So again,

0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 2>iron ore is very common, but it is the last

0:28:49.160 --> 0:28:53.480
<v Speaker 2>metal of antiquity to be smelted, due in part to

0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the high melting point.

0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:58.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm almost trying to imagine. I mean, I guess

0:28:58.160 --> 0:29:00.600
<v Speaker 3>the change took place. I suppose over a long enough

0:29:00.600 --> 0:29:02.520
<v Speaker 3>period of time that you wouldn't have really had stuff

0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:06.719
<v Speaker 3>like this, I guess. But I'm imagining somebody clutching extremely valuable,

0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:11.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, precious iron artifacts of a ceremonial value, and

0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 3>then suddenly, like the you know, the iron working and

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:18.200
<v Speaker 3>the iron smelting comes into vogue, and now iron is

0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:20.840
<v Speaker 3>all over the place, and it's just it's not the

0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:21.560
<v Speaker 3>same anymore.

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but they would still have the appeal of having

0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:30.280
<v Speaker 2>this source that is associated with the sky as having

0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:33.920
<v Speaker 2>come from heaven or from the cosmos and the gods

0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:37.000
<v Speaker 2>and so forth. And that is something that I've seen

0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 2>reference in some other sources that I'll probably come back

0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:44.720
<v Speaker 2>to later on that certainly in the Chinese examples. You know,

0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the Chinese were the ancient Chinese were aware of meteorites,

0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.080
<v Speaker 2>that they knew about these various events, and they wrote

0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:54.720
<v Speaker 2>about them in their early literature, and therefore there was

0:29:54.880 --> 0:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>likely this connection in place. So it was this precious

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:03.720
<v Speaker 2>metal that was unlike the metal used for other tools

0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 2>and so forth, unlike even other precious metals and other

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.040
<v Speaker 2>stones and so forth that were used. But then there

0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:14.840
<v Speaker 2>was also the story behind it, the idea that it

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.080
<v Speaker 2>has some sort of connection to the Cosmos.

0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:19.600
<v Speaker 3>I want to get to something about that story within

0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:22.360
<v Speaker 3>an Egyptian context in just a minute. But first I

0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:24.960
<v Speaker 3>promised I was going to mention another study on the

0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:28.720
<v Speaker 3>meteor origin of the iron in the blade. So the

0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:30.960
<v Speaker 3>other study I wanted to point out was from twenty

0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 3>twenty two. This is in the journal I think, same journal, Yeah,

0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:39.760
<v Speaker 3>same journal, Metiaritics and Planetary Science. And this is by

0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:43.800
<v Speaker 3>Takafumi Matsui at All and it's called the Manufacture and

0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:47.920
<v Speaker 3>Origin of the toot And Common Metiorritic Iron Dagger. And

0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:51.520
<v Speaker 3>this paper further supports the conclusion that the iron in

0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:54.920
<v Speaker 3>the King's dagger is from a meteorite, and not only that,

0:30:55.160 --> 0:30:59.200
<v Speaker 3>adds evidence about what kind of meteorite, And so the

0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:03.280
<v Speaker 3>author's right quote. Here we report non destructive two dimensional

0:31:03.360 --> 0:31:07.280
<v Speaker 3>chemical analysis of the tutencommon iron dagger conducted at the

0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:11.280
<v Speaker 3>Egyptian Museum of Cairo. Elemental mapping of nickel on the

0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:16.600
<v Speaker 3>dagger blade surface shows discontinuous banded arrangements in places with

0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:21.840
<v Speaker 3>cubic symmetry and a bandwidth of about one millimeters, suggesting

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:26.120
<v Speaker 3>a vidmin stotton pattern. Remember that, yeah, ah, yeah, So

0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:30.520
<v Speaker 3>the intermediate nickel content with the presence of the vidmin

0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.959
<v Speaker 3>stotton pattern implies the source meteorite of the dagger blade

0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:39.000
<v Speaker 3>to be octahedrite. So again, that's the octahedron the d

0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:43.640
<v Speaker 3>eight die. Furthermore, they say that the quote randomly distributed

0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:48.880
<v Speaker 3>sulfur rich black spots are likely remnants of troylite inclusions

0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:53.400
<v Speaker 3>in iron meteorite. So remember those black spots I mentioned

0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:55.920
<v Speaker 3>on the dagger that I said looked like lunar maria,

0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 3>You know, those strange kind of geographical looking depressions and

0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:03.880
<v Speaker 3>dark spots. These authors conclude that those are probably sulfur

0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 3>rich troylite inclusions, little impurities in the original metal made

0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:14.960
<v Speaker 3>of mineral iron sulfide and so iron sulfide. By the way,

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:18.719
<v Speaker 3>you ever boil a hard boiled egg too long and

0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:21.520
<v Speaker 3>it ends up with a green cake forming around the yolk,

0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:26.360
<v Speaker 3>that's iron sulfide. I think hydrogen sulfide in the egg

0:32:26.480 --> 0:32:30.480
<v Speaker 3>white reacts with with iron and the egg yolk and

0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:33.360
<v Speaker 3>make iron sulfide. So yeah, that's that's what the gross

0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:35.760
<v Speaker 3>green stuff is. It's not gonna hurts you. You can

0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:36.320
<v Speaker 3>still eat it.

0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.080
<v Speaker 2>You're not a fan of green eggs.

0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:42.160
<v Speaker 3>Well, no, I'm fine with all full green eggs. I

0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:45.240
<v Speaker 3>don't love the green the green case around the yolk.

0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:49.200
<v Speaker 3>I feel like you boiled that too long. That's a no, no, okay.

0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:52.280
<v Speaker 2>I won't do any of the follow up questions about

0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:54.360
<v Speaker 2>whether you would need it with a goat and so forth.

0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.080
<v Speaker 3>I need anything with a goat. You know. Goat's just

0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.320
<v Speaker 3>good company that makes even unpalatable food. Fine.

0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, they are quite amusing anyway.

0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:05.520
<v Speaker 3>The authors of the paper argue that the vidmuns dot

0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:09.480
<v Speaker 3>and pattern and the troilite inclusions, the fact that those

0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 3>were preserved, these things together indicate that the iron was

0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:17.320
<v Speaker 3>probably forged and worked at low temperatures of less than

0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:21.480
<v Speaker 3>nine hundred and fifty degrees celsius. They also even use

0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:25.240
<v Speaker 3>material analysis to not just say, like what physically the

0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:29.120
<v Speaker 3>stagger is, but to connect it to some historical documents.

0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't think they were the first people to make

0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 3>this connection, but they used some material analysis to kind

0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:40.440
<v Speaker 3>of back it up. So the authors here argued that

0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:44.560
<v Speaker 3>this stagger was quite possibly a gift given to Tutankhommon's

0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:49.240
<v Speaker 3>likely grandfather. I'm Innhotep the third from the Kingdom of

0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:54.760
<v Speaker 3>Mitani in Anatolia. Because there is a tablet mentioning such

0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:57.800
<v Speaker 3>a gift among Egyptian records. There's a tablet that says,

0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:00.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, they're sending a gift to I'm Inhotep the

0:34:00.760 --> 0:34:03.960
<v Speaker 3>third and it's described as an iron dagger with a

0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 3>golden hilt. And then the bit of material evidence that

0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:12.600
<v Speaker 3>backs this up is that there is lime plaster used

0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:15.680
<v Speaker 3>to glue jim stones to the gold hilt, and that

0:34:15.800 --> 0:34:21.600
<v Speaker 3>lime plaster glue is characteristic of Mittani craftsmanship rather than Egyptian,

0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:26.000
<v Speaker 3>which tended to use gypsum plaster instead. So this dagger,

0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:28.520
<v Speaker 3>wrapped up with the body of King Tut inside his

0:34:28.560 --> 0:34:31.960
<v Speaker 3>wrappings laying on his thigh, seems to have been made

0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:36.120
<v Speaker 3>out of metal that came from a meteorite. And it's

0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:39.080
<v Speaker 3>a good guess that this was a gift to King

0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 3>Tut's grandfather from Anatolia.

0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:44.919
<v Speaker 2>Wow, now some of you are probably wondering, well, which

0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:46.440
<v Speaker 2>god was in charge of all of this. So a

0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:52.160
<v Speaker 2>brief sidebar here on this in general, and for this

0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:55.480
<v Speaker 2>I turned once more to Geraldine Pinch's book and Egyptian mythology,

0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:59.840
<v Speaker 2>and essentially we should probably point out, yeah, that the

0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:03.279
<v Speaker 2>Egyptian god associated with metal working is the god Taw,

0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>and not only is Ta associated with metalworking, he's also

0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:10.560
<v Speaker 2>held up as a kind of creator deity in some

0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.440
<v Speaker 2>of these traditions. Said to have designed and crafted the

0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:18.160
<v Speaker 2>world have to have smelt the new lands, and I

0:35:18.280 --> 0:35:21.160
<v Speaker 2>found this interesting. Made bodies for the kings of Egypt

0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:25.960
<v Speaker 2>out of electrum, copper, and iron bodies according to Pinch,

0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:30.600
<v Speaker 2>that were presumably made so that they could occupy those

0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:33.520
<v Speaker 2>bodies in the lands beyond death. So this would be

0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:38.840
<v Speaker 2>like your resurrected metal body for the next world. He

0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Ta here, though is often described as being beautiful of face.

0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:45.560
<v Speaker 2>His skin is often described as being blue, though I've

0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:48.759
<v Speaker 2>also seen it green in some depictions. He wears an

0:35:48.840 --> 0:35:53.400
<v Speaker 2>artisan's cap, and he's associated with dwarves, perhaps to the

0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:58.200
<v Speaker 2>fact that dwarves were often employed in gym working. And

0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:00.560
<v Speaker 2>this on its own is a pretty fast any topic,

0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:03.400
<v Speaker 2>the role of dwarfs in ancient Egypt. There are a

0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:07.319
<v Speaker 2>few different papers on this. Some of these individuals worked

0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:11.880
<v Speaker 2>in entertainment or as personal attendants. Others were animal tenders

0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 2>and indeed jewelers, but also there were individuals of the

0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Old Kingdom who rose to high rank and status and

0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:20.920
<v Speaker 2>were buried as such, and we're able to tell they

0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:23.000
<v Speaker 2>had that status because of the way they were buried.

0:36:23.680 --> 0:36:26.879
<v Speaker 2>So it's often argued that cultural acceptance was pretty high

0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:30.320
<v Speaker 2>for them, and Ta was ultimately just one of multiple

0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:33.439
<v Speaker 2>gods held to have a dwarf in form of one

0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:37.560
<v Speaker 2>sort or another. And Ta also would later be equated

0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:42.080
<v Speaker 2>with Hephaestus by the Greeks, though of course Ephaestus was

0:36:42.120 --> 0:37:02.600
<v Speaker 2>not beautiful of face, I think in most traditions.

0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:57.919
<v Speaker 3>So meteorites have of course been found by people since prehistory,

0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:02.160
<v Speaker 3>but how often did we actually understand what they were

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:05.360
<v Speaker 3>and where they came from. Just one example of people

0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:09.400
<v Speaker 3>not generally accepting that meteorites came from outer space is

0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:14.239
<v Speaker 3>European scientists up until the early nineteenth century. There's a

0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:17.520
<v Speaker 3>good summary of this history of the debate about the

0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:21.839
<v Speaker 3>origin of meteorites in the book Cosmic Horizons, edited by

0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:24.480
<v Speaker 3>Steven Soder and Neil de Gras Tyson. I think it

0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:27.400
<v Speaker 3>was published in the year two thousand and The short

0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:31.680
<v Speaker 3>version of the story is that there have long been

0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:37.040
<v Speaker 3>reports from people seeing fireballs in the sky or hearing explosions,

0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:40.440
<v Speaker 3>then finding rocks that they believed had fallen from above.

0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:44.400
<v Speaker 3>But as of the late eighteenth century, most scientists of

0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:48.319
<v Speaker 3>the European Enlightenment doubted that stones actually fell from the sky,

0:37:48.560 --> 0:37:50.880
<v Speaker 3>or if they did believe it, they thought maybe that

0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:54.200
<v Speaker 3>the stones came from somewhere on Earth. They couldn't have

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:57.560
<v Speaker 3>come from outer space. Maybe they were thrown from a

0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:01.240
<v Speaker 3>distant volcano, or maybe they were picked up and tossed

0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:05.120
<v Speaker 3>by a hurricane far away. Because at the time there

0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:08.000
<v Speaker 3>was a sort of a dogma. There was a convention

0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:12.720
<v Speaker 3>that space, apart from the planets and the comets, was empty.

0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:14.799
<v Speaker 3>You know, you got the Earth, you got the Sun,

0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:18.319
<v Speaker 3>the planets, the stars, the comets, but other than that,

0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:22.520
<v Speaker 3>it's just empty out there. There's not like stuff flying around. However,

0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:26.480
<v Speaker 3>a German physicist by the name of Ernst Kladney, who

0:38:26.480 --> 0:38:29.960
<v Speaker 3>lived seventeen fifty six to eighteen twenty seven, published a

0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:32.919
<v Speaker 3>book in the year seventeen ninety four arguing that these

0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:37.000
<v Speaker 3>reports were accurate and that rocks and pieces of iron

0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:41.440
<v Speaker 3>actually do sometimes fall from the sky, in some cases

0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:45.560
<v Speaker 3>creating fireballs and explosions as they are heated by friction

0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:50.759
<v Speaker 3>traveling through the atmosphere. Claudney was an interesting guy. He

0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:54.160
<v Speaker 3>was a lawyer by training, but he was also very

0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.920
<v Speaker 3>into music and acoustics, and he discovered a way of

0:38:58.280 --> 0:39:02.000
<v Speaker 3>visualizing sound wave by putting dust or powder on a

0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:05.120
<v Speaker 3>plate and then vibrating the plate by rubbing it with

0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:08.120
<v Speaker 3>a violin bow, and so the powder would range itself

0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:12.840
<v Speaker 3>into these patterns that were related to the sound waves produced.

0:39:13.480 --> 0:39:18.240
<v Speaker 3>Claudney went about collecting eyewitness reports of fireballs and meteorite

0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:21.759
<v Speaker 3>falls from the sky, and he tried to evaluate them

0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.600
<v Speaker 3>for credibility and see what could be learned from them,

0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:27.759
<v Speaker 3>and eventually he concluded that yes, rocks really do fall

0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:32.359
<v Speaker 3>from space. One thing he did was use descriptions of

0:39:32.440 --> 0:39:36.160
<v Speaker 3>fireballs to estimate the speed at which these rocks were

0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 3>entering the Earth's atmosphere, and he realized they must be

0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:43.400
<v Speaker 3>going much faster than could be accounted for by the

0:39:43.440 --> 0:39:47.440
<v Speaker 3>Earth's gravity alone, so they're not simply falling, but they

0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:51.719
<v Speaker 3>must be flying through space at extreme velocities. And this

0:39:51.840 --> 0:39:54.920
<v Speaker 3>connected with the fact that when these alleged rocks were found,

0:39:55.000 --> 0:39:57.719
<v Speaker 3>they looked scorched all over. The friction of entering the

0:39:57.760 --> 0:40:01.280
<v Speaker 3>atmosphere at these high speeds melt to their outer shells,

0:40:02.000 --> 0:40:03.919
<v Speaker 3>and so he looked into it He published this book

0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:06.480
<v Speaker 3>in seventeen ninety four, and it was initially met with

0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:10.640
<v Speaker 3>skepticism by his peers by European scientists, but many scientists

0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:14.839
<v Speaker 3>updated their beliefs due to new emerging evidence. They sort

0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:19.640
<v Speaker 3>of got lucky with some things, some documented events that

0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:24.560
<v Speaker 3>really backed up his argument, including a widely reported meteor

0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:27.399
<v Speaker 3>fall near Siena, Italy, just a couple of months after

0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:30.440
<v Speaker 3>the book was published, another one in England which included

0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:33.840
<v Speaker 3>an eyewitness account of a farmer who claimed a black

0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:36.560
<v Speaker 3>rock hit the earth only thirty feet away from him

0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.640
<v Speaker 3>and caused an explosion in the mud that splattered all

0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:43.600
<v Speaker 3>over his body. And then there was another one in

0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:48.000
<v Speaker 3>Normandy in eighteen oh three, which was extensively documented by

0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:52.800
<v Speaker 3>the French physicist Jean Baptiste bo which included reports of

0:40:52.840 --> 0:40:56.319
<v Speaker 3>a fireball as well as an elliptical impact area that

0:40:56.400 --> 0:41:01.640
<v Speaker 3>had many weird stones within it. These reports were supplemented

0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:05.200
<v Speaker 3>by chemical and mineral analysis of some of these meteorite samples,

0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:08.399
<v Speaker 3>and it turned out that these samples were unlike any

0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:11.520
<v Speaker 3>rocks or metal ores known of on Earth. For example,

0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:14.640
<v Speaker 3>the rocks contained what they called at the time globules.

0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:19.600
<v Speaker 3>These are now known as chondrules, their little round grains

0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:23.960
<v Speaker 3>within the structure of the rock that begin as molten

0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:27.240
<v Speaker 3>droplets of minerals in space, and then a crete together

0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:31.719
<v Speaker 3>within asteroids. Also connecting to what we've already found, they

0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:35.400
<v Speaker 3>discovered that iron meteorite fragments contained levels of nickel that

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:38.879
<v Speaker 3>had never been observed in Earth based iron. And then

0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:42.279
<v Speaker 3>finally another piece of evidence was the discovery of the

0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:46.439
<v Speaker 3>first asteroid, the Dwarf Planet series in eighteen oh one,

0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:50.400
<v Speaker 3>which suggested that space between the planets and the comets

0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:54.080
<v Speaker 3>was not empty. There were lots of rocky things floating

0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:56.840
<v Speaker 3>around out there, and some of them might occasionally land

0:41:56.880 --> 0:41:59.920
<v Speaker 3>on Earth, and that was in fact what meteorites were.

0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:03.640
<v Speaker 3>So it was more than one hundred years after Newton's

0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:08.400
<v Speaker 3>principia that the true origin of meteorites was widely accepted

0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:12.560
<v Speaker 3>among European scientists. But that brings me to an article

0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:15.240
<v Speaker 3>that I wanted to talk about to address the question

0:42:15.480 --> 0:42:18.320
<v Speaker 3>of what the ancient Egyptians knew. So I was reading

0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:22.120
<v Speaker 3>an article in the anthropology magazine Sapiens written by an

0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:26.640
<v Speaker 3>Egyptologist who named Victoria almansa Villatorro. This is from twenty

0:42:26.680 --> 0:42:31.120
<v Speaker 3>twenty three and if Almansa Villatoro's argument is correct, the

0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:33.799
<v Speaker 3>fact that meteorites come from space or from the sky

0:42:34.280 --> 0:42:38.680
<v Speaker 3>was known to the ancient Egyptians. Just one cool example

0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:42.360
<v Speaker 3>she mentions in the article is there's an interesting inscription

0:42:42.480 --> 0:42:48.240
<v Speaker 3>in hieroglyphics inside the pyramid of Unus at Sakara. Unus

0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:52.080
<v Speaker 3>was the last pharaoh of the Fifth dynasty during Egypt's

0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:55.239
<v Speaker 3>Old Kingdom, and he ruled in the middle of the

0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:58.680
<v Speaker 3>twenty fourth century BCE, so like forty four hundred years ago,

0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:02.719
<v Speaker 3>and the sentence from the pyramid text reads, Eunice the

0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:08.360
<v Speaker 3>king seizes the sky and splits its iron. Now, this

0:43:08.480 --> 0:43:12.440
<v Speaker 3>article in Sapiens is based somewhat on almans Of Villatorro's

0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:16.080
<v Speaker 3>academic publication in the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology from twenty

0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:20.040
<v Speaker 3>nineteen called the Cultural Indexicality of the N forty one

0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:24.080
<v Speaker 3>sign for beat this. Oh, this's got some strange characters.

0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:27.239
<v Speaker 3>BJ three sort of is what it looks like the

0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:30.560
<v Speaker 3>metal of the sky and the sky of metal. Now,

0:43:30.600 --> 0:43:33.120
<v Speaker 3>this includes a lot of linguistic arguments that are way

0:43:33.160 --> 0:43:34.799
<v Speaker 3>over my head, but I was just going through to

0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:39.000
<v Speaker 3>get the main point and pull out some details. And

0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:41.040
<v Speaker 3>one of the things I wanted to get to. I

0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:42.920
<v Speaker 3>wanted to mention briefly just because I thought it was

0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:46.960
<v Speaker 3>interesting before getting to remain conclusions or about the religious

0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.920
<v Speaker 3>and ceremonial functions of iron Almansa. Villaturro mentions in the

0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:56.000
<v Speaker 3>paper that pre Iron Age iron artifacts are associated in

0:43:56.120 --> 0:44:00.800
<v Speaker 3>Egypt with an elaborate funerary ritual known as the opening

0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:04.440
<v Speaker 3>of the Mouth, which was a sort of ceremony performed

0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:06.520
<v Speaker 3>over a dead body. I think often of a king

0:44:06.600 --> 0:44:09.319
<v Speaker 3>or a ruler, but a ceremony over a body that

0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 3>seems to be sort of activated the powers of life

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.680
<v Speaker 3>beyond death. It's sort of like turning on after life

0:44:15.800 --> 0:44:18.040
<v Speaker 3>mode to give you the powers of like eating and

0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:21.920
<v Speaker 3>drinking and speaking in the afterlife. And I briefly got

0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:25.160
<v Speaker 3>very interested in this. So this was not in the paper,

0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:27.840
<v Speaker 3>but I went looking for a text of the spoken

0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:29.839
<v Speaker 3>part of the opening of the mouth ceremony. I think

0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:31.719
<v Speaker 3>there are a lot of different versions of this, but

0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:35.440
<v Speaker 3>the one I found in particular was a translation of

0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:39.319
<v Speaker 3>the ritual from the tomb chapel of rek Mira, which

0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:43.480
<v Speaker 3>involved like dedicating a statue of the dead, and the

0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:47.920
<v Speaker 3>text includes the following lines. There's a letter, a capital

0:44:48.320 --> 0:44:50.759
<v Speaker 3>letter in here which just refers to the name of

0:44:50.800 --> 0:44:52.799
<v Speaker 3>the dead. So when you hear in, you think of

0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.080
<v Speaker 3>the name of the dead. It goes, I have balanced

0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:57.640
<v Speaker 3>your mouth and bones for you.

0:44:57.960 --> 0:44:58.040
<v Speaker 1>In.

0:44:58.440 --> 0:45:00.120
<v Speaker 3>I have opened your mouth for you.

0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:00.560
<v Speaker 1>In.

0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:03.719
<v Speaker 3>I open your mouth for you with the new uplade.

0:45:03.800 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 3>I have opened your mouth for you with the new uplade.

0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:09.880
<v Speaker 3>The mesca hetch you blade of iron that opens the

0:45:09.920 --> 0:45:13.200
<v Speaker 3>mouths of gods. Horace is the opener of the mouth

0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:16.480
<v Speaker 3>of N. Horace. Horace has opened the mouth of N.

0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:19.600
<v Speaker 3>Horace has opened the mouth of N with that which

0:45:19.640 --> 0:45:22.520
<v Speaker 3>he opened the mouth of his father, with which he

0:45:22.600 --> 0:45:25.759
<v Speaker 3>opened the mouth of Osiris, with the iron that came

0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:29.600
<v Speaker 3>from Seth. The mesketch you blade of iron with which

0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:32.719
<v Speaker 3>the mouths of gods are opened. May you open the

0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:33.839
<v Speaker 3>mouth of N with it?

0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Nice And we get that connection back to Osyrus, who

0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:41.919
<v Speaker 2>we talked about previously on the show. This is interesting too,

0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:45.160
<v Speaker 2>because then when I was researching Taw, who I talked

0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:49.480
<v Speaker 2>about earlier, the Egyptian god associated with craftsmanship. There was

0:45:49.520 --> 0:45:52.520
<v Speaker 2>also mention in Pinch's work about the opening of the

0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:56.879
<v Speaker 2>mouth ceremony and elsewhere in the book. She talks about

0:45:56.920 --> 0:46:00.600
<v Speaker 2>the Horus connection and so forth, but it's seems like

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Todd did have some sort of connection to this as well,

0:46:04.920 --> 0:46:07.440
<v Speaker 2>and she mentions that it was used for mummies but

0:46:07.480 --> 0:46:11.560
<v Speaker 2>also for sculptures, and maybe given his craftsmanship angle, he's

0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:14.160
<v Speaker 2>more aligned with that end of it. I'm not entirely certain,

0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:19.880
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, imbuing life into the sculpture, embodying it somehow,

0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and like you said, perhaps turning on after life mode

0:46:23.680 --> 0:46:27.960
<v Speaker 2>for the mummified body of an important person.

0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:31.799
<v Speaker 3>But also very interesting that implements specifically of iron are

0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:34.440
<v Speaker 3>associated with this ritual, that it has some kind of

0:46:34.640 --> 0:46:39.040
<v Speaker 3>mythical or ritual potency here. So all months of Villatorro

0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.520
<v Speaker 3>in this article gets into the fact that before the

0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:46.360
<v Speaker 3>widespread or large scale smelting of iron and iron working

0:46:46.400 --> 0:46:50.399
<v Speaker 3>within Egypt, there are still these iron artifacts that are

0:46:51.040 --> 0:46:55.600
<v Speaker 3>thought to be made primarily of iron sourced from meteorites,

0:46:56.120 --> 0:47:00.799
<v Speaker 3>and that they almost always again serve this more ceremonial

0:47:00.880 --> 0:47:04.279
<v Speaker 3>or decorative function. They are either objects of kind of

0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:08.920
<v Speaker 3>wealth and power and decoration. They symbolize status maybe or

0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:14.160
<v Speaker 3>that they have this religious significance. But anyway, I wanted

0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:16.080
<v Speaker 3>to come back to the core question of like what

0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 3>is the evidence that the ancient Egyptians actually understood that

0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 3>this meteoritic iron or meteorite iron came from the sky.

0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:27.680
<v Speaker 3>And so she writes, in the second millennium BCE, the

0:47:27.800 --> 0:47:32.840
<v Speaker 3>Egyptian word or phrase used to refer to iron was

0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:36.279
<v Speaker 3>a phrase that literally can mean the metal of the

0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:42.480
<v Speaker 3>sky or the iron of the sky, and there are

0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:46.839
<v Speaker 3>early known Egyptian associations between iron and the sky. So

0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:50.480
<v Speaker 3>you've got the pyramid pyramid text which are texts inscribed

0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:53.280
<v Speaker 3>on the inner walls of the pyramids where the Egyptian

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:55.840
<v Speaker 3>kings and queens of the fifth to eighth dynasties of

0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 3>the Old Kingdom were buried. This would cover a period

0:47:59.800 --> 0:48:02.440
<v Speaker 3>of forty one hundred forty four hundred years ago or so.

0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:07.759
<v Speaker 3>These texts included incantations that would be recited by priests

0:48:07.840 --> 0:48:11.960
<v Speaker 3>to guide the dead rulers into the afterlife. And the

0:48:12.000 --> 0:48:16.240
<v Speaker 3>pyramid texts describe a really interesting cosmology, really interesting picture

0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:20.240
<v Speaker 3>of how the universe was shaped. And in her work,

0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:24.600
<v Speaker 3>Almans of Villatro argues that the way they described the

0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:28.880
<v Speaker 3>sky should be pictured as a giant iron bowl with

0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:32.280
<v Speaker 3>water in it, and water can fall from the bowl.

0:48:32.320 --> 0:48:35.960
<v Speaker 3>I guess that's rain, but also chunks of the iron

0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:39.279
<v Speaker 3>bowl itself can fall to the earth, and these would

0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:43.440
<v Speaker 3>be iron meteorites. Now the author admits that it's not

0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:46.839
<v Speaker 3>obvious this is what's being described. You have to sort

0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:50.440
<v Speaker 3>of decode a linked system of metaphors within the glyphs

0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:54.480
<v Speaker 3>of the Egyptian language. She writes, quote, in the Pyramid texts,

0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:57.440
<v Speaker 3>the word for iron is written with a hieroglyph that

0:48:57.560 --> 0:49:02.440
<v Speaker 3>represents a hemispherical container of water. How the Egyptians perceived

0:49:02.480 --> 0:49:06.440
<v Speaker 3>the sky. Iron and sky are interchangeable in the texts,

0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:10.360
<v Speaker 3>which is why passages describe the dead sling the iron

0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:13.759
<v Speaker 3>and the king needing to break an iron barrier to

0:49:13.840 --> 0:49:16.840
<v Speaker 3>reach the sky. And then she documents how there are

0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:19.920
<v Speaker 3>also links between the concept of iron and the concept

0:49:20.080 --> 0:49:24.520
<v Speaker 3>of water, because remember, in many ancient cosmologies, people sort

0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:27.800
<v Speaker 3>of believe the sky was in some sense full of water,

0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:30.560
<v Speaker 3>and so maybe when it rains, that's water leaking out

0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:35.040
<v Speaker 3>of the waters above. And so Almans of Vulatora writes

0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:38.960
<v Speaker 3>that the goddess Newt personified the sky. But also at

0:49:38.960 --> 0:49:42.600
<v Speaker 3>this period there are religious texts explaining the belief that

0:49:42.680 --> 0:49:46.399
<v Speaker 3>in the afterlife a dead royal would return to the

0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:51.600
<v Speaker 3>waters of nuts Uterus, and so this sign used for

0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:55.759
<v Speaker 3>iron is also associated with the word for uterus and

0:49:55.840 --> 0:50:00.520
<v Speaker 3>the word for well, like water well. And so she

0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:04.239
<v Speaker 3>admits there might be legitimate reasons for doubting this interpretation

0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:08.920
<v Speaker 3>that these associations mean that the Egyptians knew that iron

0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:11.680
<v Speaker 3>meteorites came from the sky. And one is the simple

0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:15.280
<v Speaker 3>question of, like, how likely is it in a given

0:50:15.480 --> 0:50:19.080
<v Speaker 3>space and time period that someone would be able to,

0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:23.440
<v Speaker 3>like have the like witness a meteorite falling, which itself

0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:27.680
<v Speaker 3>is a fairly rare event, witness it falling, and then

0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:30.840
<v Speaker 3>have it be lucky enough that it lands very physically

0:50:30.920 --> 0:50:33.359
<v Speaker 3>close that you can close enough that you can go

0:50:33.480 --> 0:50:37.239
<v Speaker 3>find the physical meteorite and then associate it with the

0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:41.759
<v Speaker 3>falling you saw from above and put all that information

0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:44.880
<v Speaker 3>together and then also pass it on for it to

0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:48.640
<v Speaker 3>become general cultural knowledge. You know, that would take a

0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:52.840
<v Speaker 3>sort of like a lucky confluence of events that themselves

0:50:52.960 --> 0:50:56.320
<v Speaker 3>might be fairly rare, but you know, it happens often

0:50:56.440 --> 0:50:59.040
<v Speaker 3>enough that there are records of other times in places

0:50:59.040 --> 0:51:01.600
<v Speaker 3>where people did see something falling and then they claim

0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:04.640
<v Speaker 3>to have found a stone or something. So it's certainly

0:51:04.680 --> 0:51:07.840
<v Speaker 3>not impossible, And in the case of ancient Egypt, it

0:51:07.920 --> 0:51:11.319
<v Speaker 3>seems like there's this linguistic and literary evidence that would

0:51:11.360 --> 0:51:15.520
<v Speaker 3>help support that idea that people did have this cultural

0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:19.520
<v Speaker 3>knowledge making a link between iron and the sky and

0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:20.440
<v Speaker 3>the waters above.

0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:24.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and again perhaps throwing in the idea of

0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:29.279
<v Speaker 2>the desert being an ideal place to spot them in

0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:33.680
<v Speaker 2>the dark stone standing out against of a lighter colored sand,

0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:37.520
<v Speaker 2>and so forth. May come back to meteorite hunting a

0:51:37.520 --> 0:51:41.600
<v Speaker 2>little bit in subsequent episodes to explore this aspect of

0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:42.439
<v Speaker 2>everything a bit more.

0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:45.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, Oh, one more thing she knows that I

0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:48.319
<v Speaker 3>think is interesting. This is not totally unique to the

0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:51.840
<v Speaker 3>Egyptian language. She also notes that there is a similar

0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:56.400
<v Speaker 3>sort of linguistic link in ancient Sumerian, which also characterizes

0:51:56.480 --> 0:51:58.640
<v Speaker 3>iron as sort of the metal of the sky.

0:51:59.560 --> 0:52:03.879
<v Speaker 2>Excellent, excellent. Well, in the next episode, I think we're

0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:06.879
<v Speaker 2>going to get into some more examples. We're gonna we're

0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:09.080
<v Speaker 2>going to keep exploring the overall topic, but we'll also

0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:13.080
<v Speaker 2>get into some other specific examples from other cultures. Well,

0:52:13.160 --> 0:52:15.000
<v Speaker 2>we'll sort of ask some of the same questions of

0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:19.279
<v Speaker 2>Chinese traditions. You know, did they know that that this

0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.520
<v Speaker 2>iron came from above and what did that mean to

0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:24.879
<v Speaker 2>them and so forth. So, yeah, there are a lot

0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:27.839
<v Speaker 2>of additional interesting angles to explore. And there are some

0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:33.919
<v Speaker 2>other other examples and alleged examples of meteoric iron being

0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:38.879
<v Speaker 2>used in artifacts that are related to to cultures that

0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:40.960
<v Speaker 2>that I didn't even know how to tradition of using

0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:44.840
<v Speaker 2>such substances. So it'll be it'll be fascinating to continue.

0:52:44.480 --> 0:52:46.800
<v Speaker 3>To explore this, no doubt. I'm excited.

0:52:47.080 --> 0:52:50.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So in the meantime, if you have thoughts on

0:52:51.080 --> 0:52:54.160
<v Speaker 2>this topic, if you if there are specific examples you

0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:55.960
<v Speaker 2>want to get in there early and say yes, make

0:52:55.960 --> 0:52:58.480
<v Speaker 2>sure you cover this, go ahead and hit us with it.

0:52:58.520 --> 0:53:01.520
<v Speaker 2>You know we're we're in we're still in research mode here.

0:53:02.000 --> 0:53:04.160
<v Speaker 2>We're still writing up the notes, so you know, there's

0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:06.759
<v Speaker 2>time to get it in there, and if not, it's

0:53:06.760 --> 0:53:09.520
<v Speaker 2>something we can discuss on our listener mail episodes. Our

0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:12.799
<v Speaker 2>listener Mail episodes published Mondays in the Stuff to Blow

0:53:12.840 --> 0:53:16.200
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