WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Catching up with Michael Lewis

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to

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<v Speaker 1>an Apple Podcasts or Pushkin dot Fm, Slash Plus. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Lewis. We're through week one and a lot's happened

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<v Speaker 1>so far. The jurors have been picked, the lawyers have

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<v Speaker 1>given their opening statements, and witnesses are taking the stand.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of those witnesses are people I actually interview

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<v Speaker 1>for my book. It's called Going Infinite, and I've been

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<v Speaker 1>on book tours, so i haven't been in the courtroom

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<v Speaker 1>every day or actually at all. Lydia Jean has, though,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm thrilled to catch up with you, LJ.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm thrilled to catch up with you too, Michael.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're recording this on Saturday, October seventh. You spent

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<v Speaker 1>the last four days in court. How do you hold

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<v Speaker 1>them up?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm good, Honestly, it's been really fun and great being

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<v Speaker 2>in court.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me, I want to know what was like just

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<v Speaker 1>getting into the court.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I do get there at six am, and

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<v Speaker 2>then I wait for two hours with other reporters, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we go through a security line and then we

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<v Speaker 2>give up our electronics and they count how many electronics

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<v Speaker 2>you have, and they give you like a little poker chip,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you wait in another line, and then the

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<v Speaker 2>marshals take the lucky few and they get to go

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<v Speaker 2>into the courtroom.

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<v Speaker 1>So all I've done. I see in the court room

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<v Speaker 1>are the drawings, and I don't really have any sense

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<v Speaker 1>of the space, like is it really tight and closed

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<v Speaker 1>so you feel like you're close and you can see everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Us comparison is to kind of a small church, because

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<v Speaker 2>we're sitting in pews. The judge is at the front.

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<v Speaker 2>He comes in, he's wearing robes, and we all stand

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<v Speaker 2>up and then we sit down and then the jury

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<v Speaker 2>comes in and they're to the side kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>honestly where the choir would be, and another set of

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<v Speaker 2>pews that are feel like they're raised and when they

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<v Speaker 2>come in, we stand up and we sit down. So

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<v Speaker 2>that part really as a Catholics, someone who was raised Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>the standing and sitting and not knowing when it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen is very reminiscent of that. The court illustrators

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<v Speaker 2>sit in the first or second row and they have

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<v Speaker 2>these boxes of different colored I guess they use like Pastel's.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not really an artist, and they have like huge canvases.

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<v Speaker 2>One time I got to sit behind them, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>really fun to watch them draw because there's three of them,

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<v Speaker 2>and all of their drawings look a little different, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like one person will put purple in Sam's hair, another

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<v Speaker 2>one will make it all black. So it's really interesting

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<v Speaker 2>to see like everyone's different representations. But that was one

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<v Speaker 2>special time that I got to sit behind them. Usually

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<v Speaker 2>on that side of the court room where the artists

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<v Speaker 2>are is Sam's family, so his mom and his dad

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<v Speaker 2>is there, and then they have kind of like a

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<v Speaker 2>team of people who are always around them.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there any vantage point where you can see Sam's face.

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<v Speaker 2>Sam's back is to us. So the person whose face

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<v Speaker 2>we can see is kind of the judge, but he's

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<v Speaker 2>often behind a huge monitor. And we can see the

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<v Speaker 2>face of the lawyers when they're doing cross and we

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<v Speaker 2>can see the witnesses face, but they're really far up.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you see the jury's faces?

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<v Speaker 2>I can see some of the jury. So yeah, we're

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<v Speaker 2>all watching to see who's sleeping, who's not a who's taking.

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<v Speaker 1>Notes, sleeping, someone's sleeping.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, there's always at least one person who's dozing off

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<v Speaker 2>at some point. I mean, there's one juror who actually

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<v Speaker 2>he's an alternate, but he works an overnight shift and

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't speak up earlier, so this guy hasn't slept

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<v Speaker 2>in four days. One thing that could surprise you if

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<v Speaker 2>you're looking down at the courtroom is people doing Crossford

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<v Speaker 2>puzzles during the break the recesses, not during the trial.

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<v Speaker 2>But some journalists bring Crossford puzzles and then everyone works

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<v Speaker 2>together to finish them, because you know, we don't have

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<v Speaker 2>our phones, so we have to entertain ourselves however we can.

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<v Speaker 1>When you are in Sam's position right now, you must

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<v Speaker 1>feel like the pig at the Ham and Egg's breakfast,

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<v Speaker 1>and everybody else is a ticket. Everybody else is sort

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<v Speaker 1>of interested, and you're committed. You know, it's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>like your relationship to this event is so existential and

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<v Speaker 1>of such existential importance, and everybody else's relationship to the

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<v Speaker 1>event is this kind of basic casual interest, with the

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<v Speaker 1>possible exception of your parents. But it's got to be

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<v Speaker 1>so odd to have so much at stake for yourself

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<v Speaker 1>and being surrounded by all these people who are just like,

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<v Speaker 1>not all that invested. They have to write their story,

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<v Speaker 1>they have to render their judgment, they have to proceed

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<v Speaker 1>over the trial. Even the lawyers, they have to do

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<v Speaker 1>their job as lawyers and not embarrass themselves. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>just this play that's going on around you. It's all

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<v Speaker 1>about you, and nobody's feeling anything like the deep dread

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<v Speaker 1>you're feeling.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of like that famous painting right the way

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<v Speaker 2>there's a flying from the s guy and everyone else

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<v Speaker 2>is kind of going about their daily life. But do

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<v Speaker 2>you think that Sam is actually feeling?

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, it's funny. I think the way he feels,

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<v Speaker 1>instead of feeling, he calculates, and so that he's sitting

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<v Speaker 1>there updating on information and trying to think, what's the

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<v Speaker 1>next move? Given that, what's the next move? And I

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<v Speaker 1>also if I had to guess whatever thought Sam is

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<v Speaker 1>having his lawyers regard as counterproductive, like I think any

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<v Speaker 1>lawyers that were not family friends would have long ago

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<v Speaker 1>abandoned him, because he just has such a bullheaded, strong

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<v Speaker 1>view of how he should go about doing this, and

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<v Speaker 1>he will seek to impose it on the lawyers, and

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<v Speaker 1>the lawyers have a whole other idea about how to

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<v Speaker 1>do this. So I think he's calculating. I think he's

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<v Speaker 1>sitting there, you know, hearing stuff, Oh that changes this

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<v Speaker 1>that way? What do I do next? Like a board game?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think that's why his lawyers are so nervous,

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<v Speaker 2>because I've been so perplexed as to why, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Wondronlla said that one of his lawyers his hands were

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<v Speaker 2>shaking when he was doing and I'm wondering, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>these are really high profile defense lawyers. It seems like

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<v Speaker 2>we shouldn't be able to read their feelings. They must

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<v Speaker 2>have done this many times before, and is it maybe

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<v Speaker 2>because they don't feel fully empowered to mount the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of defense that they would want to have left to

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<v Speaker 2>their own devices.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a very interesting question, and it's probably because normally

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<v Speaker 1>their clients trust them, then they are in questioning their

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<v Speaker 1>every move. So I bet Sam is a big source

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<v Speaker 1>of their sort of uncertainty. I've had a chance to

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<v Speaker 1>glance over these endless transcripts, and what's been odd to

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<v Speaker 1>me is that three of the four people who've testified

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<v Speaker 1>already I interviewed. Two of them are in the book,

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<v Speaker 1>and the two I'm most curious about, in order are

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<v Speaker 1>Gary Wang and Adam You idiot. Let's start with Gary. Gary.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I had reasons for wanting to see all

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<v Speaker 1>my characters testify, just because I wanted to see how

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<v Speaker 1>they would be in that circumstance. Gary is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the most peculiar because he doesn't speak, or he didn't

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<v Speaker 1>speak like. People would sit next to him for six

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<v Speaker 1>months and not get a word out of him, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was just a running It wasn't even a joke,

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<v Speaker 1>an understanding in their world, in Sam's world that Gary

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<v Speaker 1>didn't speak. I tried to interview him. It took me

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<v Speaker 1>months before I got him in a room alone. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's the only time in my journalistic life I actually

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<v Speaker 1>felt guilty for trying to ask someone question. It created

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<v Speaker 1>such pain that after about ten or fifteen minutes of

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<v Speaker 1>me trying to pull stuff out him, I said, I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>let's not do this anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>How could you tell that he was in pain? I'm

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<v Speaker 2>just curious, like, what did he look like when he

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<v Speaker 2>was in pain?

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<v Speaker 1>He was so nervous and uncomfortable. He was monosyllabic when

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<v Speaker 1>he would answer questions. If he managed to get a

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<v Speaker 1>sentence out, he would cut himself off because he didn't

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<v Speaker 1>want to do it anymore. He was perfectly happy with horrible,

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<v Speaker 1>awkward silences. He was clearly not happy to see me,

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<v Speaker 1>and it wasn't me. It was just like it was.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't like that interaction, and it had always been

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<v Speaker 1>said of him. So I'm just curious how we handle this,

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<v Speaker 1>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>I was thinking after I saw him, I looked up

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<v Speaker 2>how you described him, and he said he had this clear,

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<v Speaker 2>untroubled face and the smile of an angel, but no words,

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<v Speaker 2>And my experience was the opposite. I saw him walk

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<v Speaker 2>down the aisle and he just looked really pale and

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<v Speaker 2>almost like in a way of shadow. And I asked

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<v Speaker 2>other people what they thought about him, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>just like, he looks really like he just looked not okay.

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<v Speaker 2>There was something about him that just seemed really faded,

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<v Speaker 2>and he had a lot to say. He talked really

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<v Speaker 2>really fast. The judge told him to slow down, the

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<v Speaker 2>prosecutor told him to slow down, and multiple times the

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<v Speaker 2>court reporter, the person who was trying to write down

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<v Speaker 2>what he was saying, told him to slow down.

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<v Speaker 1>He's, of course, maybe the closest thing to Sam's right

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<v Speaker 1>hand man. They were pals in college. Sam was always

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<v Speaker 1>explaining Gary's value to everybody else, and he was the

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<v Speaker 1>one who was responsible for all the code, so he

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<v Speaker 1>has unique insight into whatever happened in the code, and

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening in the code is in some ways the

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<v Speaker 1>story of this trial. What did he say about about that?

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<v Speaker 1>What did he say about his and Sam's interactions and

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<v Speaker 1>what he did in the computer code?

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<v Speaker 2>So to your point about how they were friends, the

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<v Speaker 2>prosecutors showed pictures of Sam and Gary together, and he

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<v Speaker 2>talked about how Alameda had special privileges on FTX. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the quote is, we gave special privileges to Alameda

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<v Speaker 2>research on FTX, which allowed it to withdraw unlimited amounts

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<v Speaker 2>of funds from the platform, and we lied about this

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<v Speaker 2>to the public. And then he explained what the four

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<v Speaker 2>privileges were. I can go through them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that'd be great.

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<v Speaker 2>One Alameda's account was able to go negative. Two Alameda

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<v Speaker 2>had an unlimited line of credit. Three Alameda was able

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<v Speaker 2>to place orders faster than other accounts. And four deposits

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<v Speaker 2>of US dollars went to Alameda accounts.

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<v Speaker 1>So the only one on that list that surprises me

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<v Speaker 1>is three.

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<v Speaker 2>Alameda was able to place orders faster than other accounts.

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<v Speaker 1>The other ones I knew about. But then the question

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<v Speaker 1>was like, why did did they get into why these

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<v Speaker 1>privileges existed.

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<v Speaker 2>He said that he added these privileges to the code

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<v Speaker 2>on Sam's instructions, and then he talked about the effect

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<v Speaker 2>of these privileges, which is that when FTX customers tried

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<v Speaker 2>to withdraw their money, wasn't there. He did talk about

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<v Speaker 2>a conversation that happened in June twenty twenty two with

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<v Speaker 2>Caroline and Gary and Nishad. There had been an accounting

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<v Speaker 2>of how much money Alameda owed FTX. And this was

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<v Speaker 2>the time right when there were lenders to Alameda who

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<v Speaker 2>wanted their money back, and Gary remembered in this meeting,

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<v Speaker 2>Sam telling Caroline that she should return the borrows. So

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<v Speaker 2>return the money to the lenders to Alameda, and Gary

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<v Speaker 2>said that that money that she used to return the

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<v Speaker 2>borrows was FTX customer money.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Did you have a sense there were times when

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<v Speaker 1>Gary was more was even more uncomfortable than normal, or

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<v Speaker 1>was sort of like a steady performance and you couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>pick up discomfort.

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<v Speaker 2>He was really hard to read, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So Adam, Adam, you DiDia. I mean, this was the

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<v Speaker 1>most amazing drama because you're talking about all of Sam's

0:11:39.556 --> 0:11:41.836
<v Speaker 1>best friends, and you're also talking about a thing that's

0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:44.836
<v Speaker 1>kind of happened once before in Sam Bankminfree's life. You know,

0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:47.116
<v Speaker 1>back in twenty eighteen, he had all of his best

0:11:47.116 --> 0:11:50.196
<v Speaker 1>friend's affective altrus in this hedge fund and it blows

0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:52.556
<v Speaker 1>up in half of them think he's a crooker or

0:11:52.636 --> 0:11:55.116
<v Speaker 1>so catastrophically sloppy. They don't want to be there anymore,

0:11:55.156 --> 0:11:57.436
<v Speaker 1>and they leave and he thinks, like, my whole world's

0:11:57.476 --> 0:12:01.036
<v Speaker 1>just falling apart, and now here we are again. And Adam,

0:12:01.036 --> 0:12:04.676
<v Speaker 1>you DiDia was his his best friend in college. Is

0:12:04.876 --> 0:12:07.556
<v Speaker 1>the way Sam would have described him, Adam, you DiDia,

0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:10.996
<v Speaker 1>you know Hawaii interviewed several times, and his whole thing

0:12:10.996 --> 0:12:14.236
<v Speaker 1>about Sam was, of all the effective Altruss, he's the

0:12:14.276 --> 0:12:17.076
<v Speaker 1>most serious. That's his point. It's like all the rest

0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:19.756
<v Speaker 1>of us all talk the talk, but Sam really walks

0:12:19.796 --> 0:12:22.756
<v Speaker 1>the walk. And it was Adam who turned him into

0:12:22.796 --> 0:12:26.276
<v Speaker 1>a vegan back at MIT. And so, you know, I

0:12:26.396 --> 0:12:31.636
<v Speaker 1>just envy you the privilege of watching this person put

0:12:31.676 --> 0:12:35.436
<v Speaker 1>in this position in relation to his friend. I'm wondering

0:12:35.636 --> 0:12:37.836
<v Speaker 1>what was he like to you and what did he

0:12:37.876 --> 0:12:38.356
<v Speaker 1>have to say.

0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:43.396
<v Speaker 2>I thought Adam seemed very likable and very genuine, and

0:12:43.436 --> 0:12:46.036
<v Speaker 2>it also really came through to me that he loved Sam.

0:12:46.156 --> 0:12:49.076
<v Speaker 2>He recounted even at some point texting Sam when everything

0:12:49.156 --> 0:12:52.276
<v Speaker 2>was starting to fall apart FTX and saying I love you.

0:12:52.316 --> 0:12:57.316
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going anywhere. Also, he seemed very also compared

0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:00.476
<v Speaker 2>to Gary, very vibrant and kind of alive, and.

0:13:00.716 --> 0:13:05.116
<v Speaker 1>Unlike Gary, he was granted immunity. I don't understand why

0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:07.076
<v Speaker 1>Adam would need to be granted immunity.

0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:11.596
<v Speaker 2>He said that he was great immunity because he was

0:13:11.716 --> 0:13:17.716
<v Speaker 2>worried that he unwittingly made changes to a computer code

0:13:18.316 --> 0:13:19.796
<v Speaker 2>that contributed to a crime.

0:13:21.116 --> 0:13:24.916
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's interesting. The technical side of things can be

0:13:24.956 --> 0:13:29.556
<v Speaker 1>so divorced from its consequences that you're not really aware

0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:32.996
<v Speaker 1>of what you're doing. And that's interesting that Adam y

0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:35.916
<v Speaker 1>Didy was in that position inside of FTX.

0:13:36.356 --> 0:13:41.276
<v Speaker 2>But the thing is he talks about knowing Alameda owed

0:13:41.436 --> 0:13:45.036
<v Speaker 2>FTX eight billion dollars, right, and then he talked about

0:13:45.076 --> 0:13:48.156
<v Speaker 2>coming to Sam and saying that eight billion dollars seems

0:13:48.196 --> 0:13:50.156
<v Speaker 2>like a lot of money. Is this going to be okay?

0:13:50.596 --> 0:13:53.036
<v Speaker 2>And Sam said to him, you know, we were a

0:13:53.036 --> 0:13:55.636
<v Speaker 2>bulletproof last year. I'm not sure that we're a bulletproof

0:13:55.676 --> 0:13:58.916
<v Speaker 2>this year. And Adam said, how long until our bulletproof again?

0:13:58.956 --> 0:14:03.756
<v Speaker 2>And Sam said maybe six months, maybe three years. If

0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:08.076
<v Speaker 2>Adam thought that that eight billion dollars was safe, why

0:14:08.116 --> 0:14:10.236
<v Speaker 2>would he be concerned about it? You know what I mean?

0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:24.316
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, fair question. We'll be right back. Welcome back.

0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:27.076
<v Speaker 2>Has stammered the book.

0:14:28.236 --> 0:14:30.196
<v Speaker 1>The only way for Sam to read the book is

0:14:30.236 --> 0:14:31.996
<v Speaker 1>if they get it on a thumb drive to him

0:14:32.036 --> 0:14:34.436
<v Speaker 1>and give it to him along with his the legal documents.

0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:37.716
<v Speaker 1>And I think they did that either today or maybe

0:14:37.756 --> 0:14:40.196
<v Speaker 1>they did it yesterday. But there wasn't a PDF of

0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:43.796
<v Speaker 1>the book until I don't know, Tuesday the publisher was

0:14:43.836 --> 0:14:46.716
<v Speaker 1>willing to release, so it would only kind of now

0:14:46.796 --> 0:14:51.836
<v Speaker 1>have found its way into the jail. There's a there's

0:14:51.836 --> 0:14:55.476
<v Speaker 1>always a question with Sam and books, is if he

0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:57.676
<v Speaker 1>thinks it's worth his trouble to read the book because

0:14:57.676 --> 0:15:00.956
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't read books. He's foreswore books forever, you know,

0:15:01.156 --> 0:15:04.036
<v Speaker 1>years ago, so they you know, you should reduce it

0:15:04.036 --> 0:15:06.436
<v Speaker 1>to a blog post. But maybe he has time on

0:15:06.476 --> 0:15:07.996
<v Speaker 1>his hands and we'll read it.

0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:09.196
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say, are you going to to

0:15:09.236 --> 0:15:11.036
<v Speaker 2>make him like a special blog post version?

0:15:16.476 --> 0:15:19.916
<v Speaker 1>So no, the idea of a subject of mine reading

0:15:19.996 --> 0:15:23.036
<v Speaker 1>the book is always nerve wracking, Like you always wonder

0:15:23.116 --> 0:15:26.276
<v Speaker 1>how are they going to respond to your portrayal of them?

0:15:27.796 --> 0:15:30.716
<v Speaker 1>In this case, it's really not because I watched Sam

0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:33.996
<v Speaker 1>respond over a year and a half to a gazillion

0:15:34.036 --> 0:15:37.236
<v Speaker 1>portrayals of himself, and he was kind of weirdly disinterested

0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:40.396
<v Speaker 1>in all of them, like he didn't ever expect anybody

0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:43.356
<v Speaker 1>to actually understand him or capture him in any way,

0:15:43.556 --> 0:15:45.636
<v Speaker 1>and if they were rude about him, no matter how rude,

0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:48.716
<v Speaker 1>it was like, eh, whatever, even after it all imploded.

0:15:49.596 --> 0:15:53.836
<v Speaker 1>So I don't expect to get any particular response, and

0:15:53.876 --> 0:15:59.196
<v Speaker 1>I certainly don't expect to get either anger or or

0:15:59.236 --> 0:16:04.276
<v Speaker 1>you missed it or great job, you know, none of that.

0:16:04.556 --> 0:16:06.676
<v Speaker 1>I'll probably hear, Oh yeah, Sam read the book.

0:16:06.996 --> 0:16:10.676
<v Speaker 2>That will kind of be it has this calculating mind.

0:16:10.716 --> 0:16:12.956
<v Speaker 2>So he has no emotional reaction to your book. How

0:16:12.956 --> 0:16:15.676
<v Speaker 2>do you think he's going to calculate what your book.

0:16:15.476 --> 0:16:19.516
<v Speaker 1>Means for him? I bet he concludes what I long

0:16:19.556 --> 0:16:23.836
<v Speaker 1>ago thought when he didn't ask, but friends your drinks

0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:25.356
<v Speaker 1>would ask, what do you think your book's going to do?

0:16:25.716 --> 0:16:30.076
<v Speaker 1>Even before the book's done, And I remember thinking it

0:16:30.116 --> 0:16:33.236
<v Speaker 1>will have no effect whatsoever on the legal judgment, but

0:16:33.316 --> 0:16:36.196
<v Speaker 1>it may have an effect on the social judgment. And

0:16:36.716 --> 0:16:40.556
<v Speaker 1>I would not be surprised if his first reaction is

0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:45.036
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't help me all that much or at all,

0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:49.196
<v Speaker 1>but it may help my parents like that people understanding

0:16:49.196 --> 0:16:52.196
<v Speaker 1>the context of it, understanding the spirit of the family,

0:16:52.596 --> 0:16:57.396
<v Speaker 1>understanding the relationship he had with them a bit. May

0:16:57.476 --> 0:17:00.076
<v Speaker 1>it may give his parents at least a feeling that

0:17:00.116 --> 0:17:03.956
<v Speaker 1>some people understand kind of how it all went down,

0:17:04.036 --> 0:17:07.276
<v Speaker 1>and that changes people's view of them. That's my bet.

0:17:07.356 --> 0:17:10.716
<v Speaker 1>My bet is that that's his first reaction. That's his calculation,

0:17:11.156 --> 0:17:13.356
<v Speaker 1>and I bet he'll say it to them, like, when

0:17:13.396 --> 0:17:15.356
<v Speaker 1>all this is over, the people, you can be able

0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:17.236
<v Speaker 1>to hold your head up on the Stanford campus and

0:17:17.236 --> 0:17:19.276
<v Speaker 1>people won't think your crooks.

0:17:20.636 --> 0:17:24.316
<v Speaker 2>I think, are you worried about anything that could come

0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:26.356
<v Speaker 2>out in court that could change what you wrote or

0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:27.756
<v Speaker 2>how you think about things.

0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:31.716
<v Speaker 1>I'm interested in what might come out of court, which

0:17:31.796 --> 0:17:35.316
<v Speaker 1>come out so far isn't in. You know, there's gonna

0:17:35.316 --> 0:17:38.596
<v Speaker 1>be things that obviously it's gonna additive I could. I

0:17:38.636 --> 0:17:41.676
<v Speaker 1>didn't know everything. I mean, if I had the government's

0:17:41.716 --> 0:17:46.476
<v Speaker 1>power to subpoena Nishad, Caroline and Gary, I'd have had everything.

0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:49.276
<v Speaker 1>But I didn't have that power. I mean, this Casett

0:17:49.356 --> 0:17:51.636
<v Speaker 1>maybe sounds will sound strange to you, but maybe it won't.

0:17:52.276 --> 0:17:56.236
<v Speaker 1>Nothing that's come out really has surprised me at all.

0:17:56.916 --> 0:18:01.436
<v Speaker 1>It does sound like they are pointing out and it's

0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:04.796
<v Speaker 1>pretty clear as true that right from the beginning there

0:18:04.796 --> 0:18:07.196
<v Speaker 1>were these conflicts of interests between Alami and f T.

0:18:07.436 --> 0:18:09.716
<v Speaker 1>Everybody asked this question, I mean, you have one hundred

0:18:09.716 --> 0:18:12.036
<v Speaker 1>and forty venture capitalists and that's this place. They all

0:18:12.036 --> 0:18:16.276
<v Speaker 1>asked the question, and they were all told in general terms. No,

0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:19.516
<v Speaker 1>The thing that you said that surprised me a little

0:18:19.516 --> 0:18:24.716
<v Speaker 1>bit is everybody asked, specifically, does Alami to have the

0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:27.236
<v Speaker 1>right to trade ahead of other people? Like that? Was

0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:30.796
<v Speaker 1>The fear was it's an irony, right. The fear was

0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:35.836
<v Speaker 1>that Sam was replicating in crypto the rigging that exists

0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:39.396
<v Speaker 1>legally in the US financial markets, in the US stock

0:18:39.436 --> 0:18:41.916
<v Speaker 1>market in particular, that he was going to be giving

0:18:42.316 --> 0:18:46.716
<v Speaker 1>high frequency traders, namely himself, the right to see other

0:18:46.716 --> 0:18:49.716
<v Speaker 1>people's trades, to trade ahead of them, all that stuff

0:18:49.756 --> 0:18:52.956
<v Speaker 1>that high frequency traders in the US stock markets buy

0:18:53.116 --> 0:18:56.356
<v Speaker 1>as a privilege and pay money for to the exchanges.

0:18:57.076 --> 0:18:59.836
<v Speaker 1>And if they did that, if they actually did that,

0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:03.276
<v Speaker 1>then that's you know, they really did just lie over

0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:07.636
<v Speaker 1>and over and over because everybody asked that question. The

0:19:07.676 --> 0:19:09.876
<v Speaker 1>Sam Bankman freed in my Imagine Nation and the Fan

0:19:09.996 --> 0:19:13.636
<v Speaker 1>Sam Bekman freed in my book. His form of dishonesty

0:19:14.156 --> 0:19:17.196
<v Speaker 1>is not outright lying. It's not telling you the answer

0:19:17.196 --> 0:19:19.476
<v Speaker 1>to the question that you really need to hear. It's

0:19:19.476 --> 0:19:22.156
<v Speaker 1>sort of like framing your question in a way that

0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:26.556
<v Speaker 1>he wants to answer it and answering that accurately. It's

0:19:26.596 --> 0:19:29.036
<v Speaker 1>a mission is less dishonest.

0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:32.556
<v Speaker 2>Is that less dishonest though he's equally dishonest.

0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:35.756
<v Speaker 1>It is no, No, it's just different. This is no way

0:19:35.796 --> 0:19:37.996
<v Speaker 1>defending him. This is just like describing how it is.

0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:42.516
<v Speaker 1>And you felt like when I was interviewing talking to

0:19:42.596 --> 0:19:45.516
<v Speaker 1>him and I wanted to get it something that he

0:19:45.636 --> 0:19:47.596
<v Speaker 1>might not want to talk about. I felt I was

0:19:47.636 --> 0:19:50.236
<v Speaker 1>playing a game of battleship that you know that you know,

0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:52.676
<v Speaker 1>if you say a four and you hit a four

0:19:52.716 --> 0:19:55.076
<v Speaker 1>and yes, he would say, yes, you hit my battleship.

0:19:55.556 --> 0:19:57.756
<v Speaker 1>But if the battleship's on a four and you say

0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:00.476
<v Speaker 1>a five, he doesn't say, oh, you're you're very near it,

0:20:00.636 --> 0:20:04.956
<v Speaker 1>you know he does. It was cagey and so that

0:20:05.076 --> 0:20:07.516
<v Speaker 1>that's why that surprised me so much, because that would

0:20:07.516 --> 0:20:09.996
<v Speaker 1>not have been caginess. That was been everybody asking that

0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:11.836
<v Speaker 1>exact question and them saying no.

0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:14.996
<v Speaker 2>It was so great talking to you, Michael. I learned

0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:16.556
<v Speaker 2>so much and I can't wait to get to talk

0:20:16.556 --> 0:20:17.236
<v Speaker 2>to you again soon.

0:20:18.036 --> 0:20:19.956
<v Speaker 1>It kills me that you get to see this and

0:20:19.996 --> 0:20:23.476
<v Speaker 1>I don't, so I'll be back with more questions soon.

0:20:25.836 --> 0:20:28.956
<v Speaker 1>This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by me Michael

0:20:28.996 --> 0:20:33.156
<v Speaker 1>Lewis Lydia Gencott is our court reporter. Katherine Gerardeau and

0:20:33.236 --> 0:20:36.996
<v Speaker 1>Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor.

0:20:37.396 --> 0:20:40.716
<v Speaker 1>Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans

0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:44.276
<v Speaker 1>of stell Wagons. Symphinette. Judging Sam is a production of

0:20:44.316 --> 0:20:47.756
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me? There's

0:20:47.756 --> 0:20:52.396
<v Speaker 1>a website for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr

0:20:52.596 --> 0:20:57.596
<v Speaker 1>podcast dot com. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on

0:20:57.636 --> 0:21:01.356
<v Speaker 1>the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:05.236
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0:21:05.356 --> 0:21:07.956
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