1
00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:20,716
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to

2
00:00:20,756 --> 00:00:22,636
Speaker 1: this episode, I want to let you know that you

3
00:00:22,636 --> 00:00:25,916
Speaker 1: can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial

4
00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:29,476
Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin

5
00:00:29,556 --> 00:00:33,516
Speaker 1: Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive

6
00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:37,356
Speaker 1: access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul

7
00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:42,236
Speaker 1: McCartney's new podcast, McCartney A Life and Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's

8
00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:46,156
Speaker 1: Revision Is History, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos,

9
00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:49,876
Speaker 1: and tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up

10
00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:57,316
Speaker 1: an Apple Podcasts or Pushkin dot Fm, Slash Plus. Welcome

11
00:00:57,316 --> 00:01:01,236
Speaker 1: to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm

12
00:01:01,276 --> 00:01:05,276
Speaker 1: Michael Lewis. We're through week one and a lot's happened

13
00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:08,356
Speaker 1: so far. The jurors have been picked, the lawyers have

14
00:01:08,396 --> 00:01:11,836
Speaker 1: given their opening statements, and witnesses are taking the stand.

15
00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:15,276
Speaker 1: A lot of those witnesses are people I actually interview

16
00:01:15,356 --> 00:01:18,236
Speaker 1: for my book. It's called Going Infinite, and I've been

17
00:01:18,236 --> 00:01:20,076
Speaker 1: on book tours, so i haven't been in the courtroom

18
00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:23,476
Speaker 1: every day or actually at all. Lydia Jean has, though,

19
00:01:23,516 --> 00:01:25,236
Speaker 1: and I'm thrilled to catch up with you, LJ.

20
00:01:25,636 --> 00:01:27,436
Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to catch up with you too, Michael.

21
00:01:27,956 --> 00:01:30,596
Speaker 1: So we're recording this on Saturday, October seventh. You spent

22
00:01:30,596 --> 00:01:32,276
Speaker 1: the last four days in court. How do you hold

23
00:01:32,276 --> 00:01:32,636
Speaker 1: them up?

24
00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:36,076
Speaker 2: I'm good, Honestly, it's been really fun and great being

25
00:01:36,116 --> 00:01:36,476
Speaker 2: in court.

26
00:01:37,236 --> 00:01:38,756
Speaker 1: Tell me, I want to know what was like just

27
00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:40,196
Speaker 1: getting into the court.

28
00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:42,676
Speaker 2: I mean, I do get there at six am, and

29
00:01:42,716 --> 00:01:45,836
Speaker 2: then I wait for two hours with other reporters, and

30
00:01:45,876 --> 00:01:47,876
Speaker 2: then we go through a security line and then we

31
00:01:47,876 --> 00:01:50,476
Speaker 2: give up our electronics and they count how many electronics

32
00:01:50,476 --> 00:01:52,636
Speaker 2: you have, and they give you like a little poker chip,

33
00:01:53,036 --> 00:01:55,356
Speaker 2: and then you wait in another line, and then the

34
00:01:55,396 --> 00:01:58,356
Speaker 2: marshals take the lucky few and they get to go

35
00:01:58,436 --> 00:01:59,316
Speaker 2: into the courtroom.

36
00:02:00,036 --> 00:02:01,476
Speaker 1: So all I've done. I see in the court room

37
00:02:01,516 --> 00:02:03,156
Speaker 1: are the drawings, and I don't really have any sense

38
00:02:03,196 --> 00:02:06,196
Speaker 1: of the space, like is it really tight and closed

39
00:02:06,196 --> 00:02:08,516
Speaker 1: so you feel like you're close and you can see everything.

40
00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:11,516
Speaker 2: Us comparison is to kind of a small church, because

41
00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,836
Speaker 2: we're sitting in pews. The judge is at the front.

42
00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:17,116
Speaker 2: He comes in, he's wearing robes, and we all stand

43
00:02:17,196 --> 00:02:19,156
Speaker 2: up and then we sit down and then the jury

44
00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:21,036
Speaker 2: comes in and they're to the side kind of like

45
00:02:21,316 --> 00:02:23,476
Speaker 2: honestly where the choir would be, and another set of

46
00:02:23,516 --> 00:02:26,236
Speaker 2: pews that are feel like they're raised and when they

47
00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:28,876
Speaker 2: come in, we stand up and we sit down. So

48
00:02:28,996 --> 00:02:31,996
Speaker 2: that part really as a Catholics, someone who was raised Catholic,

49
00:02:32,356 --> 00:02:34,316
Speaker 2: the standing and sitting and not knowing when it's going

50
00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:38,316
Speaker 2: to happen is very reminiscent of that. The court illustrators

51
00:02:38,516 --> 00:02:41,716
Speaker 2: sit in the first or second row and they have

52
00:02:41,796 --> 00:02:45,916
Speaker 2: these boxes of different colored I guess they use like Pastel's.

53
00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:48,556
Speaker 2: I'm not really an artist, and they have like huge canvases.

54
00:02:48,956 --> 00:02:50,716
Speaker 2: One time I got to sit behind them, and it's

55
00:02:50,756 --> 00:02:53,156
Speaker 2: really fun to watch them draw because there's three of them,

56
00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:55,236
Speaker 2: and all of their drawings look a little different, right,

57
00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:57,956
Speaker 2: Like one person will put purple in Sam's hair, another

58
00:02:57,956 --> 00:02:59,916
Speaker 2: one will make it all black. So it's really interesting

59
00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:02,796
Speaker 2: to see like everyone's different representations. But that was one

60
00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:05,356
Speaker 2: special time that I got to sit behind them. Usually

61
00:03:05,556 --> 00:03:07,636
Speaker 2: on that side of the court room where the artists

62
00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:10,676
Speaker 2: are is Sam's family, so his mom and his dad

63
00:03:10,756 --> 00:03:12,596
Speaker 2: is there, and then they have kind of like a

64
00:03:12,636 --> 00:03:14,316
Speaker 2: team of people who are always around them.

65
00:03:14,756 --> 00:03:17,796
Speaker 1: Is there any vantage point where you can see Sam's face.

66
00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:21,196
Speaker 2: Sam's back is to us. So the person whose face

67
00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:23,276
Speaker 2: we can see is kind of the judge, but he's

68
00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:25,676
Speaker 2: often behind a huge monitor. And we can see the

69
00:03:25,716 --> 00:03:28,276
Speaker 2: face of the lawyers when they're doing cross and we

70
00:03:28,276 --> 00:03:30,356
Speaker 2: can see the witnesses face, but they're really far up.

71
00:03:30,836 --> 00:03:32,076
Speaker 1: Can you see the jury's faces?

72
00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:33,876
Speaker 2: I can see some of the jury. So yeah, we're

73
00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:36,236
Speaker 2: all watching to see who's sleeping, who's not a who's taking.

74
00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,556
Speaker 1: Notes, sleeping, someone's sleeping.

75
00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:40,556
Speaker 2: Oh, there's always at least one person who's dozing off

76
00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:43,596
Speaker 2: at some point. I mean, there's one juror who actually

77
00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:46,236
Speaker 2: he's an alternate, but he works an overnight shift and

78
00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:48,956
Speaker 2: he didn't speak up earlier, so this guy hasn't slept

79
00:03:48,996 --> 00:03:51,356
Speaker 2: in four days. One thing that could surprise you if

80
00:03:51,356 --> 00:03:53,956
Speaker 2: you're looking down at the courtroom is people doing Crossford

81
00:03:53,996 --> 00:04:01,156
Speaker 2: puzzles during the break the recesses, not during the trial.

82
00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:04,276
Speaker 2: But some journalists bring Crossford puzzles and then everyone works

83
00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:06,276
Speaker 2: together to finish them, because you know, we don't have

84
00:04:06,316 --> 00:04:08,996
Speaker 2: our phones, so we have to entertain ourselves however we can.

85
00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:15,236
Speaker 1: When you are in Sam's position right now, you must

86
00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:17,996
Speaker 1: feel like the pig at the Ham and Egg's breakfast,

87
00:04:18,356 --> 00:04:21,516
Speaker 1: and everybody else is a ticket. Everybody else is sort

88
00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:24,636
Speaker 1: of interested, and you're committed. You know, it's sort of

89
00:04:24,676 --> 00:04:30,476
Speaker 1: like your relationship to this event is so existential and

90
00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:34,916
Speaker 1: of such existential importance, and everybody else's relationship to the

91
00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:37,876
Speaker 1: event is this kind of basic casual interest, with the

92
00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:40,916
Speaker 1: possible exception of your parents. But it's got to be

93
00:04:40,956 --> 00:04:43,596
Speaker 1: so odd to have so much at stake for yourself

94
00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:47,236
Speaker 1: and being surrounded by all these people who are just like,

95
00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:50,916
Speaker 1: not all that invested. They have to write their story,

96
00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:53,636
Speaker 1: they have to render their judgment, they have to proceed

97
00:04:53,676 --> 00:04:55,516
Speaker 1: over the trial. Even the lawyers, they have to do

98
00:04:55,556 --> 00:04:58,516
Speaker 1: their job as lawyers and not embarrass themselves. And it's

99
00:04:58,596 --> 00:05:00,956
Speaker 1: just this play that's going on around you. It's all

100
00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:05,156
Speaker 1: about you, and nobody's feeling anything like the deep dread

101
00:05:05,236 --> 00:05:05,756
Speaker 1: you're feeling.

102
00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:08,356
Speaker 2: It's kind of like that famous painting right the way

103
00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:10,876
Speaker 2: there's a flying from the s guy and everyone else

104
00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:13,996
Speaker 2: is kind of going about their daily life. But do

105
00:05:14,076 --> 00:05:15,716
Speaker 2: you think that Sam is actually feeling?

106
00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:19,716
Speaker 1: But you know, it's funny. I think the way he feels,

107
00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:24,076
Speaker 1: instead of feeling, he calculates, and so that he's sitting

108
00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:27,316
Speaker 1: there updating on information and trying to think, what's the

109
00:05:27,356 --> 00:05:30,796
Speaker 1: next move? Given that, what's the next move? And I

110
00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:34,556
Speaker 1: also if I had to guess whatever thought Sam is

111
00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:38,516
Speaker 1: having his lawyers regard as counterproductive, like I think any

112
00:05:38,596 --> 00:05:40,716
Speaker 1: lawyers that were not family friends would have long ago

113
00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:44,436
Speaker 1: abandoned him, because he just has such a bullheaded, strong

114
00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:48,036
Speaker 1: view of how he should go about doing this, and

115
00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:50,596
Speaker 1: he will seek to impose it on the lawyers, and

116
00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:52,316
Speaker 1: the lawyers have a whole other idea about how to

117
00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:54,196
Speaker 1: do this. So I think he's calculating. I think he's

118
00:05:54,196 --> 00:05:57,316
Speaker 1: sitting there, you know, hearing stuff, Oh that changes this

119
00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:00,076
Speaker 1: that way? What do I do next? Like a board game?

120
00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:02,716
Speaker 2: Do you think that's why his lawyers are so nervous,

121
00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:05,476
Speaker 2: because I've been so perplexed as to why, you know,

122
00:06:05,556 --> 00:06:08,116
Speaker 2: Wondronlla said that one of his lawyers his hands were

123
00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:11,476
Speaker 2: shaking when he was doing and I'm wondering, you know,

124
00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:15,436
Speaker 2: these are really high profile defense lawyers. It seems like

125
00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:17,596
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be able to read their feelings. They must

126
00:06:17,636 --> 00:06:19,796
Speaker 2: have done this many times before, and is it maybe

127
00:06:19,836 --> 00:06:22,196
Speaker 2: because they don't feel fully empowered to mount the sort

128
00:06:22,196 --> 00:06:23,956
Speaker 2: of defense that they would want to have left to

129
00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:25,196
Speaker 2: their own devices.

130
00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:30,076
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting question, and it's probably because normally

131
00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:33,596
Speaker 1: their clients trust them, then they are in questioning their

132
00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:37,036
Speaker 1: every move. So I bet Sam is a big source

133
00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:43,236
Speaker 1: of their sort of uncertainty. I've had a chance to

134
00:06:43,276 --> 00:06:47,636
Speaker 1: glance over these endless transcripts, and what's been odd to

135
00:06:47,676 --> 00:06:50,236
Speaker 1: me is that three of the four people who've testified

136
00:06:50,276 --> 00:06:53,196
Speaker 1: already I interviewed. Two of them are in the book,

137
00:06:53,636 --> 00:06:56,596
Speaker 1: and the two I'm most curious about, in order are

138
00:06:56,756 --> 00:07:00,436
Speaker 1: Gary Wang and Adam You idiot. Let's start with Gary. Gary.

139
00:07:00,836 --> 00:07:03,516
Speaker 1: You know, I had reasons for wanting to see all

140
00:07:03,556 --> 00:07:06,116
Speaker 1: my characters testify, just because I wanted to see how

141
00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:08,436
Speaker 1: they would be in that circumstance. Gary is one of

142
00:07:08,476 --> 00:07:11,436
Speaker 1: the most peculiar because he doesn't speak, or he didn't

143
00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:13,796
Speaker 1: speak like. People would sit next to him for six

144
00:07:13,836 --> 00:07:15,556
Speaker 1: months and not get a word out of him, and

145
00:07:15,596 --> 00:07:18,156
Speaker 1: it was just a running It wasn't even a joke,

146
00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,636
Speaker 1: an understanding in their world, in Sam's world that Gary

147
00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:24,516
Speaker 1: didn't speak. I tried to interview him. It took me

148
00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:27,516
Speaker 1: months before I got him in a room alone. And

149
00:07:27,556 --> 00:07:30,236
Speaker 1: it's the only time in my journalistic life I actually

150
00:07:30,276 --> 00:07:34,316
Speaker 1: felt guilty for trying to ask someone question. It created

151
00:07:34,396 --> 00:07:37,316
Speaker 1: such pain that after about ten or fifteen minutes of

152
00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:39,556
Speaker 1: me trying to pull stuff out him, I said, I'm sorry,

153
00:07:40,396 --> 00:07:41,436
Speaker 1: let's not do this anymore.

154
00:07:41,916 --> 00:07:43,756
Speaker 2: How could you tell that he was in pain? I'm

155
00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:45,236
Speaker 2: just curious, like, what did he look like when he

156
00:07:45,276 --> 00:07:45,716
Speaker 2: was in pain?

157
00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:52,996
Speaker 1: He was so nervous and uncomfortable. He was monosyllabic when

158
00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:55,516
Speaker 1: he would answer questions. If he managed to get a

159
00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:58,476
Speaker 1: sentence out, he would cut himself off because he didn't

160
00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:03,036
Speaker 1: want to do it anymore. He was perfectly happy with horrible,

161
00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:06,316
Speaker 1: awkward silences. He was clearly not happy to see me,

162
00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:08,796
Speaker 1: and it wasn't me. It was just like it was.

163
00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:13,156
Speaker 1: He didn't like that interaction, and it had always been

164
00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:16,636
Speaker 1: said of him. So I'm just curious how we handle this,

165
00:08:17,236 --> 00:08:17,516
Speaker 1: you know.

166
00:08:17,556 --> 00:08:19,636
Speaker 2: I was thinking after I saw him, I looked up

167
00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:22,036
Speaker 2: how you described him, and he said he had this clear,

168
00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:24,756
Speaker 2: untroubled face and the smile of an angel, but no words,

169
00:08:25,396 --> 00:08:28,676
Speaker 2: And my experience was the opposite. I saw him walk

170
00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:31,836
Speaker 2: down the aisle and he just looked really pale and

171
00:08:31,876 --> 00:08:34,436
Speaker 2: almost like in a way of shadow. And I asked

172
00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:35,996
Speaker 2: other people what they thought about him, and they were

173
00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:39,156
Speaker 2: just like, he looks really like he just looked not okay.

174
00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:41,356
Speaker 2: There was something about him that just seemed really faded,

175
00:08:41,876 --> 00:08:45,516
Speaker 2: and he had a lot to say. He talked really

176
00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:48,796
Speaker 2: really fast. The judge told him to slow down, the

177
00:08:48,796 --> 00:08:51,756
Speaker 2: prosecutor told him to slow down, and multiple times the

178
00:08:51,796 --> 00:08:53,556
Speaker 2: court reporter, the person who was trying to write down

179
00:08:53,596 --> 00:08:55,036
Speaker 2: what he was saying, told him to slow down.

180
00:08:55,596 --> 00:08:58,236
Speaker 1: He's, of course, maybe the closest thing to Sam's right

181
00:08:58,236 --> 00:09:02,196
Speaker 1: hand man. They were pals in college. Sam was always

182
00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:04,836
Speaker 1: explaining Gary's value to everybody else, and he was the

183
00:09:04,836 --> 00:09:07,316
Speaker 1: one who was responsible for all the code, so he

184
00:09:07,436 --> 00:09:13,116
Speaker 1: has unique insight into whatever happened in the code, and

185
00:09:13,476 --> 00:09:15,516
Speaker 1: what's happening in the code is in some ways the

186
00:09:15,556 --> 00:09:18,916
Speaker 1: story of this trial. What did he say about about that?

187
00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:21,996
Speaker 1: What did he say about his and Sam's interactions and

188
00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:24,276
Speaker 1: what he did in the computer code?

189
00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:26,476
Speaker 2: So to your point about how they were friends, the

190
00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:30,476
Speaker 2: prosecutors showed pictures of Sam and Gary together, and he

191
00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:35,116
Speaker 2: talked about how Alameda had special privileges on FTX. I

192
00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:37,556
Speaker 2: think the quote is, we gave special privileges to Alameda

193
00:09:37,636 --> 00:09:40,916
Speaker 2: research on FTX, which allowed it to withdraw unlimited amounts

194
00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:42,996
Speaker 2: of funds from the platform, and we lied about this

195
00:09:43,036 --> 00:09:46,796
Speaker 2: to the public. And then he explained what the four

196
00:09:46,796 --> 00:09:48,956
Speaker 2: privileges were. I can go through them.

197
00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:50,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be great.

198
00:09:50,996 --> 00:09:54,876
Speaker 2: One Alameda's account was able to go negative. Two Alameda

199
00:09:54,916 --> 00:09:58,236
Speaker 2: had an unlimited line of credit. Three Alameda was able

200
00:09:58,276 --> 00:10:01,996
Speaker 2: to place orders faster than other accounts. And four deposits

201
00:10:01,996 --> 00:10:04,356
Speaker 2: of US dollars went to Alameda accounts.

202
00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:08,716
Speaker 1: So the only one on that list that surprises me

203
00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:10,876
Speaker 1: is three.

204
00:10:11,276 --> 00:10:14,356
Speaker 2: Alameda was able to place orders faster than other accounts.

205
00:10:15,076 --> 00:10:17,236
Speaker 1: The other ones I knew about. But then the question

206
00:10:17,396 --> 00:10:20,956
Speaker 1: was like, why did did they get into why these

207
00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:21,956
Speaker 1: privileges existed.

208
00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:26,436
Speaker 2: He said that he added these privileges to the code

209
00:10:26,476 --> 00:10:30,476
Speaker 2: on Sam's instructions, and then he talked about the effect

210
00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:35,556
Speaker 2: of these privileges, which is that when FTX customers tried

211
00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:39,276
Speaker 2: to withdraw their money, wasn't there. He did talk about

212
00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:43,036
Speaker 2: a conversation that happened in June twenty twenty two with

213
00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:46,356
Speaker 2: Caroline and Gary and Nishad. There had been an accounting

214
00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:50,356
Speaker 2: of how much money Alameda owed FTX. And this was

215
00:10:50,396 --> 00:10:53,116
Speaker 2: the time right when there were lenders to Alameda who

216
00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:59,356
Speaker 2: wanted their money back, and Gary remembered in this meeting,

217
00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:03,956
Speaker 2: Sam telling Caroline that she should return the borrows. So

218
00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:08,836
Speaker 2: return the money to the lenders to Alameda, and Gary

219
00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:12,236
Speaker 2: said that that money that she used to return the

220
00:11:12,316 --> 00:11:15,836
Speaker 2: borrows was FTX customer money.

221
00:11:15,996 --> 00:11:18,836
Speaker 1: Right. Did you have a sense there were times when

222
00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:23,916
Speaker 1: Gary was more was even more uncomfortable than normal, or

223
00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:26,476
Speaker 1: was sort of like a steady performance and you couldn't

224
00:11:26,636 --> 00:11:28,716
Speaker 1: pick up discomfort.

225
00:11:29,196 --> 00:11:31,676
Speaker 2: He was really hard to read, right.

226
00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:35,756
Speaker 1: So Adam, Adam, you DiDia. I mean, this was the

227
00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:39,436
Speaker 1: most amazing drama because you're talking about all of Sam's

228
00:11:39,556 --> 00:11:41,836
Speaker 1: best friends, and you're also talking about a thing that's

229
00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:44,836
Speaker 1: kind of happened once before in Sam Bankminfree's life. You know,

230
00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:47,116
Speaker 1: back in twenty eighteen, he had all of his best

231
00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:50,196
Speaker 1: friend's affective altrus in this hedge fund and it blows

232
00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:52,556
Speaker 1: up in half of them think he's a crooker or

233
00:11:52,636 --> 00:11:55,116
Speaker 1: so catastrophically sloppy. They don't want to be there anymore,

234
00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:57,436
Speaker 1: and they leave and he thinks, like, my whole world's

235
00:11:57,476 --> 00:12:01,036
Speaker 1: just falling apart, and now here we are again. And Adam,

236
00:12:01,036 --> 00:12:04,676
Speaker 1: you DiDia was his his best friend in college. Is

237
00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:07,556
Speaker 1: the way Sam would have described him, Adam, you DiDia,

238
00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:10,996
Speaker 1: you know Hawaii interviewed several times, and his whole thing

239
00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:14,236
Speaker 1: about Sam was, of all the effective Altruss, he's the

240
00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:17,076
Speaker 1: most serious. That's his point. It's like all the rest

241
00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:19,756
Speaker 1: of us all talk the talk, but Sam really walks

242
00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:22,756
Speaker 1: the walk. And it was Adam who turned him into

243
00:12:22,796 --> 00:12:26,276
Speaker 1: a vegan back at MIT. And so, you know, I

244
00:12:26,396 --> 00:12:31,636
Speaker 1: just envy you the privilege of watching this person put

245
00:12:31,676 --> 00:12:35,436
Speaker 1: in this position in relation to his friend. I'm wondering

246
00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:37,836
Speaker 1: what was he like to you and what did he

247
00:12:37,876 --> 00:12:38,356
Speaker 1: have to say.

248
00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:43,396
Speaker 2: I thought Adam seemed very likable and very genuine, and

249
00:12:43,436 --> 00:12:46,036
Speaker 2: it also really came through to me that he loved Sam.

250
00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:49,076
Speaker 2: He recounted even at some point texting Sam when everything

251
00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:52,276
Speaker 2: was starting to fall apart FTX and saying I love you.

252
00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:57,316
Speaker 2: I'm not going anywhere. Also, he seemed very also compared

253
00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:00,476
Speaker 2: to Gary, very vibrant and kind of alive, and.

254
00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:05,116
Speaker 1: Unlike Gary, he was granted immunity. I don't understand why

255
00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:07,076
Speaker 1: Adam would need to be granted immunity.

256
00:13:07,356 --> 00:13:11,596
Speaker 2: He said that he was great immunity because he was

257
00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:17,716
Speaker 2: worried that he unwittingly made changes to a computer code

258
00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:19,796
Speaker 2: that contributed to a crime.

259
00:13:21,116 --> 00:13:24,916
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting. The technical side of things can be

260
00:13:24,956 --> 00:13:29,556
Speaker 1: so divorced from its consequences that you're not really aware

261
00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:32,996
Speaker 1: of what you're doing. And that's interesting that Adam y

262
00:13:32,996 --> 00:13:35,916
Speaker 1: Didy was in that position inside of FTX.

263
00:13:36,356 --> 00:13:41,276
Speaker 2: But the thing is he talks about knowing Alameda owed

264
00:13:41,436 --> 00:13:45,036
Speaker 2: FTX eight billion dollars, right, and then he talked about

265
00:13:45,076 --> 00:13:48,156
Speaker 2: coming to Sam and saying that eight billion dollars seems

266
00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:50,156
Speaker 2: like a lot of money. Is this going to be okay?

267
00:13:50,596 --> 00:13:53,036
Speaker 2: And Sam said to him, you know, we were a

268
00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:55,636
Speaker 2: bulletproof last year. I'm not sure that we're a bulletproof

269
00:13:55,676 --> 00:13:58,916
Speaker 2: this year. And Adam said, how long until our bulletproof again?

270
00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:03,756
Speaker 2: And Sam said maybe six months, maybe three years. If

271
00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:08,076
Speaker 2: Adam thought that that eight billion dollars was safe, why

272
00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,236
Speaker 2: would he be concerned about it? You know what I mean?

273
00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:24,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, fair question. We'll be right back. Welcome back.

274
00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:27,076
Speaker 2: Has stammered the book.

275
00:14:28,236 --> 00:14:30,196
Speaker 1: The only way for Sam to read the book is

276
00:14:30,236 --> 00:14:31,996
Speaker 1: if they get it on a thumb drive to him

277
00:14:32,036 --> 00:14:34,436
Speaker 1: and give it to him along with his the legal documents.

278
00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:37,716
Speaker 1: And I think they did that either today or maybe

279
00:14:37,756 --> 00:14:40,196
Speaker 1: they did it yesterday. But there wasn't a PDF of

280
00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:43,796
Speaker 1: the book until I don't know, Tuesday the publisher was

281
00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:46,716
Speaker 1: willing to release, so it would only kind of now

282
00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:51,836
Speaker 1: have found its way into the jail. There's a there's

283
00:14:51,836 --> 00:14:55,476
Speaker 1: always a question with Sam and books, is if he

284
00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:57,676
Speaker 1: thinks it's worth his trouble to read the book because

285
00:14:57,676 --> 00:15:00,956
Speaker 1: he doesn't read books. He's foreswore books forever, you know,

286
00:15:01,156 --> 00:15:04,036
Speaker 1: years ago, so they you know, you should reduce it

287
00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:06,436
Speaker 1: to a blog post. But maybe he has time on

288
00:15:06,476 --> 00:15:07,996
Speaker 1: his hands and we'll read it.

289
00:15:08,196 --> 00:15:09,196
Speaker 2: I was going to say, are you going to to

290
00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:11,036
Speaker 2: make him like a special blog post version?

291
00:15:16,476 --> 00:15:19,916
Speaker 1: So no, the idea of a subject of mine reading

292
00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:23,036
Speaker 1: the book is always nerve wracking, Like you always wonder

293
00:15:23,116 --> 00:15:26,276
Speaker 1: how are they going to respond to your portrayal of them?

294
00:15:27,796 --> 00:15:30,716
Speaker 1: In this case, it's really not because I watched Sam

295
00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:33,996
Speaker 1: respond over a year and a half to a gazillion

296
00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:37,236
Speaker 1: portrayals of himself, and he was kind of weirdly disinterested

297
00:15:37,316 --> 00:15:40,396
Speaker 1: in all of them, like he didn't ever expect anybody

298
00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:43,356
Speaker 1: to actually understand him or capture him in any way,

299
00:15:43,556 --> 00:15:45,636
Speaker 1: and if they were rude about him, no matter how rude,

300
00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:48,716
Speaker 1: it was like, eh, whatever, even after it all imploded.

301
00:15:49,596 --> 00:15:53,836
Speaker 1: So I don't expect to get any particular response, and

302
00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:59,196
Speaker 1: I certainly don't expect to get either anger or or

303
00:15:59,236 --> 00:16:04,276
Speaker 1: you missed it or great job, you know, none of that.

304
00:16:04,556 --> 00:16:06,676
Speaker 1: I'll probably hear, Oh yeah, Sam read the book.

305
00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:10,676
Speaker 2: That will kind of be it has this calculating mind.

306
00:16:10,716 --> 00:16:12,956
Speaker 2: So he has no emotional reaction to your book. How

307
00:16:12,956 --> 00:16:15,676
Speaker 2: do you think he's going to calculate what your book.

308
00:16:15,476 --> 00:16:19,516
Speaker 1: Means for him? I bet he concludes what I long

309
00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:23,836
Speaker 1: ago thought when he didn't ask, but friends your drinks

310
00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:25,356
Speaker 1: would ask, what do you think your book's going to do?

311
00:16:25,716 --> 00:16:30,076
Speaker 1: Even before the book's done, And I remember thinking it

312
00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:33,236
Speaker 1: will have no effect whatsoever on the legal judgment, but

313
00:16:33,316 --> 00:16:36,196
Speaker 1: it may have an effect on the social judgment. And

314
00:16:36,716 --> 00:16:40,556
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if his first reaction is

315
00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,036
Speaker 1: it doesn't help me all that much or at all,

316
00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:49,196
Speaker 1: but it may help my parents like that people understanding

317
00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:52,196
Speaker 1: the context of it, understanding the spirit of the family,

318
00:16:52,596 --> 00:16:57,396
Speaker 1: understanding the relationship he had with them a bit. May

319
00:16:57,476 --> 00:17:00,076
Speaker 1: it may give his parents at least a feeling that

320
00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:03,956
Speaker 1: some people understand kind of how it all went down,

321
00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:07,276
Speaker 1: and that changes people's view of them. That's my bet.

322
00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:10,716
Speaker 1: My bet is that that's his first reaction. That's his calculation,

323
00:17:11,156 --> 00:17:13,356
Speaker 1: and I bet he'll say it to them, like, when

324
00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:15,356
Speaker 1: all this is over, the people, you can be able

325
00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:17,236
Speaker 1: to hold your head up on the Stanford campus and

326
00:17:17,236 --> 00:17:19,276
Speaker 1: people won't think your crooks.

327
00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:24,316
Speaker 2: I think, are you worried about anything that could come

328
00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:26,356
Speaker 2: out in court that could change what you wrote or

329
00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:27,756
Speaker 2: how you think about things.

330
00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,716
Speaker 1: I'm interested in what might come out of court, which

331
00:17:31,796 --> 00:17:35,316
Speaker 1: come out so far isn't in. You know, there's gonna

332
00:17:35,316 --> 00:17:38,596
Speaker 1: be things that obviously it's gonna additive I could. I

333
00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:41,676
Speaker 1: didn't know everything. I mean, if I had the government's

334
00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:46,476
Speaker 1: power to subpoena Nishad, Caroline and Gary, I'd have had everything.

335
00:17:46,756 --> 00:17:49,276
Speaker 1: But I didn't have that power. I mean, this Casett

336
00:17:49,356 --> 00:17:51,636
Speaker 1: maybe sounds will sound strange to you, but maybe it won't.

337
00:17:52,276 --> 00:17:56,236
Speaker 1: Nothing that's come out really has surprised me at all.

338
00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:01,436
Speaker 1: It does sound like they are pointing out and it's

339
00:18:01,476 --> 00:18:04,796
Speaker 1: pretty clear as true that right from the beginning there

340
00:18:04,796 --> 00:18:07,196
Speaker 1: were these conflicts of interests between Alami and f T.

341
00:18:07,436 --> 00:18:09,716
Speaker 1: Everybody asked this question, I mean, you have one hundred

342
00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:12,036
Speaker 1: and forty venture capitalists and that's this place. They all

343
00:18:12,036 --> 00:18:16,276
Speaker 1: asked the question, and they were all told in general terms. No,

344
00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:19,516
Speaker 1: The thing that you said that surprised me a little

345
00:18:19,516 --> 00:18:24,716
Speaker 1: bit is everybody asked, specifically, does Alami to have the

346
00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:27,236
Speaker 1: right to trade ahead of other people? Like that? Was

347
00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:30,796
Speaker 1: The fear was it's an irony, right. The fear was

348
00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:35,836
Speaker 1: that Sam was replicating in crypto the rigging that exists

349
00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:39,396
Speaker 1: legally in the US financial markets, in the US stock

350
00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:41,916
Speaker 1: market in particular, that he was going to be giving

351
00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:46,716
Speaker 1: high frequency traders, namely himself, the right to see other

352
00:18:46,716 --> 00:18:49,716
Speaker 1: people's trades, to trade ahead of them, all that stuff

353
00:18:49,756 --> 00:18:52,956
Speaker 1: that high frequency traders in the US stock markets buy

354
00:18:53,116 --> 00:18:56,356
Speaker 1: as a privilege and pay money for to the exchanges.

355
00:18:57,076 --> 00:18:59,836
Speaker 1: And if they did that, if they actually did that,

356
00:19:00,716 --> 00:19:03,276
Speaker 1: then that's you know, they really did just lie over

357
00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:07,636
Speaker 1: and over and over because everybody asked that question. The

358
00:19:07,676 --> 00:19:09,876
Speaker 1: Sam Bankman freed in my Imagine Nation and the Fan

359
00:19:09,996 --> 00:19:13,636
Speaker 1: Sam Bekman freed in my book. His form of dishonesty

360
00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:17,196
Speaker 1: is not outright lying. It's not telling you the answer

361
00:19:17,196 --> 00:19:19,476
Speaker 1: to the question that you really need to hear. It's

362
00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:22,156
Speaker 1: sort of like framing your question in a way that

363
00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:26,556
Speaker 1: he wants to answer it and answering that accurately. It's

364
00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:29,036
Speaker 1: a mission is less dishonest.

365
00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:32,556
Speaker 2: Is that less dishonest though he's equally dishonest.

366
00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:35,756
Speaker 1: It is no, No, it's just different. This is no way

367
00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:37,996
Speaker 1: defending him. This is just like describing how it is.

368
00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:42,516
Speaker 1: And you felt like when I was interviewing talking to

369
00:19:42,596 --> 00:19:45,516
Speaker 1: him and I wanted to get it something that he

370
00:19:45,636 --> 00:19:47,596
Speaker 1: might not want to talk about. I felt I was

371
00:19:47,636 --> 00:19:50,236
Speaker 1: playing a game of battleship that you know that you know,

372
00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:52,676
Speaker 1: if you say a four and you hit a four

373
00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:55,076
Speaker 1: and yes, he would say, yes, you hit my battleship.

374
00:19:55,556 --> 00:19:57,756
Speaker 1: But if the battleship's on a four and you say

375
00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:00,476
Speaker 1: a five, he doesn't say, oh, you're you're very near it,

376
00:20:00,636 --> 00:20:04,956
Speaker 1: you know he does. It was cagey and so that

377
00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:07,516
Speaker 1: that's why that surprised me so much, because that would

378
00:20:07,516 --> 00:20:09,996
Speaker 1: not have been caginess. That was been everybody asking that

379
00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:11,836
Speaker 1: exact question and them saying no.

380
00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:14,996
Speaker 2: It was so great talking to you, Michael. I learned

381
00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:16,556
Speaker 2: so much and I can't wait to get to talk

382
00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:17,236
Speaker 2: to you again soon.

383
00:20:18,036 --> 00:20:19,956
Speaker 1: It kills me that you get to see this and

384
00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:23,476
Speaker 1: I don't, so I'll be back with more questions soon.

385
00:20:25,836 --> 00:20:28,956
Speaker 1: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by me Michael

386
00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:33,156
Speaker 1: Lewis Lydia Gencott is our court reporter. Katherine Gerardeau and

387
00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:36,996
Speaker 1: Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor.

388
00:20:37,396 --> 00:20:40,716
Speaker 1: Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans

389
00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:44,276
Speaker 1: of stell Wagons. Symphinette. Judging Sam is a production of

390
00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,756
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me? There's

391
00:20:47,756 --> 00:20:52,396
Speaker 1: a website for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr

392
00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:57,596
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on

393
00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:01,356
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

394
00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:05,236
Speaker 1: your podcasts. If you'd like to access bonus episodes and

395
00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:07,956
Speaker 1: listen ad free, don't forget to sign up for a

396
00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:12,356
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot fm, slash plus, or

397
00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:13,636
Speaker 1: on our Apple show page