1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Every American remembers where they were on January sixth, twenty 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: twenty one, but no American probably was more at the 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: center of attention on that day than Mike Pence. I 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: had a chance racing to sit down with him to 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: talk about the epic events of January sixth, twenty twenty one, 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: his career as a lifelong political figure, and his current activities. 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: You've been a governor of Indiana for ten years, a 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Member of Congress from Indiana, and Vice President of the United 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: States for four years. So are you thinking about possibly 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: running again or you've had enough elective offices? 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: You know. 12 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 3: I'm I like to say I never say never, but 13 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 3: I can tell you, David, my focus right now is 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 3: really on trying to be a. 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: Voice for the conservative values. 16 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 3: That have really animated my career over the last forty years, 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 3: and the foundation I created after we left Washington, d C. 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: Called Advancing American Freedom is really committed to those those 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 3: is a Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, George Bush principles that 20 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 3: really also guided the Trump Pence administration of a strong defense, 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: limited government, fiscal responsibility, traditional values, and so whatever the 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 3: future holds for me, I'm going to continue to seek 23 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 3: to be a champion for those principles that I think 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 3: have always made this country strong and prosperous and free. 25 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: So the organization is called Advancing American Freedom and it 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: where is it based. 27 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: It's based right here in Washington, d C. 28 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 3: I live in Indiana, so I'm a commuter to Washington, 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 3: but got a terrific and a growing team of principal 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 3: conservative men and women who are putting out the kind 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: of work that other organizations in the past provided in 32 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: the city when I was in Congress and as a 33 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 3: governor and an our administration. But there are less of 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: those voices today, and so we've emerged, I think as 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 3: one of the leading voices for traditional conservative thought. 36 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: And I'm very humbled by that, but also see a 37 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: great responsibility to it. 38 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 4: Now. 39 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: One of the conservative organizations that's been very popular among 40 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: conservatives in Washington for many years is the Heritage Foundation, 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: and recently a number of people have left the Heritage 42 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: Foundation and joining your organization. 43 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: Was that a surprise to you? 44 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 3: We were very moved that they were inspired by our 45 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 3: example and our consistent commitment to principle to come our way. 46 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: But in another sense, I wasn't that surprised. 47 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 3: I have seen a shift in the conservative movement really 48 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: since President Trump's returned to active politics and ultimately his 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: successful campaign, where some are walking away from the Republican 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: Party's commitment to America being leader. 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: Of the free world. 52 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: Some are walking away to our commitment to limited government 53 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 3: and even marginalizing the right to life. And the folks 54 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: that came our way I saw as an endorsement of 55 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: them wanting to be a part of a team that 56 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 3: is continuing to stand on that broad mainstream conservative agenda 57 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 3: that's to find the Republican Party for the better part 58 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 3: of seventy years. 59 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: Today, as we talk, two issues have arisen where I 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: would say the Republican support is not as strong as 61 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: it has been before. 62 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 4: One of them deals with Greenland. 63 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: Why do you think so many Republicans on Capitol Hill say, 64 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: don't get involved with trying militarily to take over Greenland. 65 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: Well, David, I think you just put a fine point 66 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 3: on it, which is what I hear objections to, is 67 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 3: the notion that we would ever use military force against 68 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 3: a NATO ally. Denmark is a NATO ally and Greenland 69 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: is a part of their of their title and control, 70 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 3: if you will, as a territory. 71 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: I think there's a great case. 72 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 3: For acquiring Greenland, and I fully support the president's ultimate objective. 73 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 3: I think there's a national security case for it. The 74 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: Arctic is becoming enormously important. The ability to expand there 75 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 3: would be very important to the United States and our 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 3: security interests in the region. I expect there's also significant 77 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: economic interest in terms of mineral development. I know what 78 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: a student of history you are, but it was Abraham Lincoln, 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: Secretary of State, who was the first one to recommend 80 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 3: that we purchased green One, and so it is an 81 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: idea one hundred and fifty years in the making. 82 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: Let's talk about another issue that seems to have divided 83 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: Republicans a bit, and that's Venezuela. With the effort to 84 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: take Maduro out. Are there many people on Capitol Hill, 85 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: including some Republicans, who think that a war Powers resolution 86 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: making clear what the president's real ability to do and 87 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: not do with military troops should be clarified. Do you 88 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: have any view on Venezuela. 89 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: Well. 90 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 3: When I was serving alongside President Trump, he tasked me 91 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 3: to take the lead from time to time in America 92 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 3: and the President and I were able to marshal some 93 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: sixty nations around the world to recognize him as the 94 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 3: legitimate president of Venezuela. It was one of the disappointments 95 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: of our first term that Maduro survived the Trump Pence administration, 96 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 3: and so I commend President Trump for taking military action 97 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: to bring Maduro to justice. 98 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: Here in the United States. 99 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 3: Armed forces responded brilliantly, and I think now we have 100 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: an opportunity to move Venezuela forward toward free and fair 101 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 3: elections and a restoration of the kind of market principles 102 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: that made Venezuela once the second most prosperous nation in 103 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 3: our hemisphere. I fully support the president's action if it 104 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: was to go far beyond that, if there was a 105 00:05:55,080 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 3: direct military confrontation, I think the authorization and for the 106 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 3: use of force vote and Congress will be appropriate. But 107 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 3: I think at this point the President has operated fully 108 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: within his responsibility and authority. 109 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: Another issue that has I think united some Republicans maybe 110 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: in opposition to some of what President Trump wants to do, 111 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: and I'll just be curious if you can comment on it, 112 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: is the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. President Trump 113 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: hasn't been that happy with him, and now there appears 114 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: to be maybe a criminal investigation of him for cost 115 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: overruns supposedly in the Federal Reserve building as it's being reconstructed. 116 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: Are you surprised that Republicans on Capitol Hill have said 117 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: they aren't going to confirm anybody until this issue to 118 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: replace j. Powell until this issue is satisfactly resolved. 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: I don't think that the American people want some pristine 120 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 3: independence and untouchable Federal Reserve by the elected president or 121 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: the elected representatives of the American people. I was disappointed 122 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 3: to see the headlines about subpoenas having been issued. If 123 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 3: there needs to be a review of that construction project, 124 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: it seems like that because should happen in an orderly way. 125 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: I'm not terribly surprised to see leading Republicans in the 126 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: Senate express their concern about that. Let's hold the Fed accountable. 127 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: The President can express his opinion. I think that new 128 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: leadership at the Federal Reserve would be good for our 129 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: economy and good for the country. But it was disappointed 130 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: to see that development. 131 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you will probably be remembered for 132 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: the rest of your life. As you know the events 133 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: of January sixth, on twenty twenty one will probably be 134 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: the date that you will always be remembered for because 135 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: you agreed to have a vote account and you approve 136 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: the votes that came in from the States, in effect 137 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: saying that you had not been re elected as vice 138 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: president and President Trump had not been re elected as president, 139 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: and you obviously had a disagreement with President Trump over 140 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: that was that the hardest day of your life because 141 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: you had to disagree with the president and also because 142 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: people were trying to take your life. 143 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: David, January sixth was a tragic day. But I'll always believed, 144 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: by God's grace that I did my duty that day 145 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: to see to the peaceful transfer of power under the 146 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 3: Constitution of the United States. But it was a difficult day. 147 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: I don't know if it was the hardest day I've 148 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 3: ever faced. The day my dad left this earth was 149 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: an awfully hard day, and that was not to be 150 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: compared to those moments. But it was difficult. President Trump 151 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: and I had a good working relationship for four years. 152 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 3: I'd like to say he was not just my president, 153 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: he was my friend. It was a fluid relationship. The 154 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 3: President gave me extraordinary opportunities to champion our agenda on 155 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: Capitol Hill, around the country, represent America around the world. 156 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: So the fact that we reached an impasse on. 157 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: My duty on January sixth was difficult, But I thought 158 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 3: my duty was clear. 159 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 4: In your book, So help me God. 160 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: You talk about the fact that after a few days 161 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: after the election was over and you had the count 162 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: and President Trump wasn't happy, but he wasn't going to 163 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: be able to stay in office, you met with him 164 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: and he didn't yell or scream or he just had 165 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: a very friendly conversation. Can you recount what that was like. 166 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 3: I think it's because the President and I have gone 167 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 3: our separate ways in the last several years. I think 168 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 3: it comes as a surprise to people to remember that 169 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 3: we actually parted very amicably on January twentieth, twenty twenty one. 170 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 4: But it. 171 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 3: Unfolded in those days immediately after January six Now, I'll 172 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 3: be honest with you, David. You you asked if I 173 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: had well what my emotions were at the Capitol on 174 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 3: January six I can tell you I wasn't afraid, but 175 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 3: I was angry. I was angry at what I saw. 176 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: I was angry seeing people, you know, desecrating the seat 177 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: of our government. I remember thinking, you know, not this, 178 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: not here, not in America. Well, it was a day 179 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: of tragedy. Because of the Capitol Hill Police, who were 180 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: the heroes that day, the violence was quelled and leaders 181 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: in both political parties reconvened the very same day and 182 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 3: completed our work for the peaceful transfer of power. I 183 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: remember in one of our last conversations he still seemed 184 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 3: very dejected and very down, and I looked at him 185 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: and I told him and I said, well, I'm you know, I'm. 186 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 2: Praying for you. 187 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: And when I got up to leave the meeting a 188 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 3: little bit later, I said, you know, I guess there's 189 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: probably two things that were always going to disagree on. 190 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 3: And he looked up faintly from where he was seated 191 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: at the dining room table and said, what's that. And 192 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 3: I said, well, I get the impression we're never going 193 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 3: to agree on my duty on January sixth, and I said, 194 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 3: and I'm never going to stop praying for you. 195 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: And he looked up with. 196 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: A faint smile and said, that's right, Mike, don't ever change. 197 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning of your career. You 198 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: were born in Indiana. I was what did your father 199 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: and mother do? 200 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, my dad was a businessman. He ended up running 201 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 3: a gasoline station business, but uh, several hundred stations across 202 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: southern Indiana. Self made man, lived the American dream. My 203 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 3: mom was a second generation Irish American. My dad a 204 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 3: combat veteran. And I tell people I feel like I 205 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 3: grew up on the footstool of the American dream. 206 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 4: And you're growing up. You went to college where. 207 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: Little college on the Ohio River in Indiana called Hanover College, 208 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 3: and then Indiana University for law school. But I always 209 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 3: had an interest from the time I was a little 210 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 3: boy in politics and in public service. I was deeply 211 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: inspired by the life the example of President John F. 212 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 3: Kennedy and the Reverend doctor Martin Luther King Junior, and 213 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: they still inspire me to this day. 214 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: Well, after law school, you practiced law, did little, but 215 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: then you actually got a radio talk show and you 216 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: became well known for that among other things. And you 217 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: were involved in a policy institute in Indiana. And then 218 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight, I think you ran for Congress. 219 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 4: Did you win overwhelmingly? 220 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: We came close, and then not so much two years later. 221 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: Right, So after eighty eight you lost and you said, well, 222 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: what's the best thing to do. I'll run again in 223 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, and you lost again. 224 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 4: I did so. 225 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: I assume at the end of that election you said 226 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: I've had enough of politics. 227 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: Well, or politics had had enough of me. I I 228 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 3: just had a feeling that that dream was gone, the 229 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: dream of being the congressman from my hometown. 230 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: So, after a gap of ten years from being an 231 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: elected trying to be an elected official, you run your 232 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and you won. 233 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 4: I did so when you. 234 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: Got to Congress, was it as good as you thought 235 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: it was going to be? And was it worth that 236 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: long effort to get there? 237 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: It was a great privilege from me and a dream 238 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: come true. I never imagined I could be governor of 239 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: the state I grew up in, or serve as vice president, 240 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 3: But Congress was the dream of my youth, and I'll 241 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: always consider it to have been. 242 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: God's grace in my life. 243 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: First that I didn't win when I first ran, because 244 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: I don't think I was ready, But at age forty, 245 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 3: after spending a lot of years thinking about what I believe, 246 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 3: learning a little bit better how to engage people, and communicate. 247 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: I felt like I was able to arrive in Washington. 248 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 3: With a clear idea of the vision that I wanted 249 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: to advance and the values and principles I wanted to 250 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: carry there from Indiana. 251 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: So, after ten years in Congress, you decided to run 252 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: for governor of the state of Indiana. So let's go 253 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: to how you became vice president. When did you actually 254 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: realize you were actually a serious candidate, And what was 255 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: like when you met him? 256 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 4: And you had not been an early supporter of his? 257 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 4: Is that right? 258 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: I had not? 259 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 3: In fact, the President often would enjoy reminding friends that 260 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: I had endorsed someone else in the Republican primary. 261 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 4: Who did you endure me? 262 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: Well, you know, as someone in the conservative movement. I 263 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 3: felt very drawn to Ted Cruz's candidacy. I said why 264 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: I was supporting Ted Cruz, But I also commended Donald 265 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 3: Trump because it was clear to me that he was 266 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 3: making a connection with all kinds of people across the 267 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: country who had aspirations for restoring our economy and standing 268 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 3: for values and standing tall again. But it was late 269 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: June when a business associate of his in Indiana, who 270 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: is a longtime friend of mine and his called me 271 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 3: on the phone. I was walking into the governor's residence 272 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 3: in Indiana and said, a friend of mine would like 273 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 3: to know if you would like to be considered for 274 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: the vice presidential nomination, and I was taken aback. 275 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: So when you got elected vice president? Did you enjoy 276 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: the vice presidency? Up until the very end? 277 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: I never lost a sense of awe. 278 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 3: Every day that my motorcade drove me up to the 279 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: White House, or when I climbed on the helicopters to 280 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 3: fly to Andrews Air Force Base, to go somewhere around 281 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 3: the country, around the world. There was always a I 282 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 3: mean a small town guy from southern Indiana. Grandfather got 283 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: on a boat, stepped off onto Ellis Island. Dad ran 284 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: gas stations. And there I was on January twentieth, twenty seventeen, 285 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: with my left hand on Ronald Reagan's Bible and my 286 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: right hand in the air, and took the oath of 287 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 3: office to serve as Vice president. 288 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: I never got over it. It was a great sense 289 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: of privilege. As we said earlier, it. 290 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: Didn't end the way I wanted it to, but I'll 291 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: always be grateful for the privilege and opportunity that President 292 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: Trump and the American people gave me to surf. 293 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: You've become a member of Congress and you had a 294 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: reputation for being pretty conservative, I would think it's fair 295 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: to say, and you became a leader among conservatives in 296 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: the Congress. So were people surprised about how conservative you were? 297 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: Or is that what you always told people you were 298 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: going to do when you got to Congress, being very, 299 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: very conservative. 300 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 3: I told people that if I ever got to Congress, 301 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: my only ambition would be to do it. I told 302 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 3: people back home i'd do if I ever got there, 303 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 3: And you know, it ended up. It ended up putting 304 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: me at odds with the president of my own party 305 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 3: and my leadership from time to time when you said, 306 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 3: was it like what you expected when you got there? 307 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: I wrote in my book that sometimes I felt a 308 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: little bit like Rip Van Winkle. I felt like a 309 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 3: guy that ran for Congress the first time before the 310 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 3: Republican Revolution in nineteen ninety four and then was elected 311 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 3: after it was over. When I got to Washington, d C. 312 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: I greatly admire President George W. Bush and consider him 313 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: to be a friend and a great man. But his 314 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 3: administration was proposing from my very first days a massive 315 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 3: expansion of the Federal Department of Education. The Wall Street 316 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 3: bailout eight years later would also be a point of 317 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 3: contention between us. But what guided me through those years 318 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 3: was I knew that I had come really to keep 319 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 3: faith with the values and principles that the people of 320 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 3: Indiana had elected me to advance. 321 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: What did you do as Vice president that you're most 322 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: proud of, other than the vote on January sixth, which 323 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: presumably you're proud of having done that, But what do 324 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: you think you accomplished those four years before the January 325 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: sixth vote? 326 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 3: There are two things, both of them bear upon our 327 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 3: national security. Number one is the President tasked me with 328 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 3: giving the first major speech changing US posture toward China, 329 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 3: the speech I gave in twenty eighteen. The President and 330 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: I literally worked through it together, and essentially I think 331 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 3: it started the process that the Trump Pens administration achieved, 332 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 3: which was to change the national census on China. It 333 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 3: was to say, after years of hoping that economic exchange 334 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 3: would result in greater liberalization in China, we essentially put 335 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 3: a marker down and said, after years of trade abuses, 336 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 3: intellectual property theft, military provocations, human rights abuses, that. 337 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: Those days were over. 338 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 3: We're going to impose tariffs, We're going to demand that 339 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 3: China comes forward. And I'm proud that that posture has 340 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 3: been maintained even through the Biden administration, but now been 341 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 3: redoubled with President Trump's new term. 342 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: Now, President Trump, I think it's fair to say even 343 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: President Trump would probably say this has been impulsive at times, 344 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: and he likes to make decisions pretty quickly by the 345 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: traditional standards of Washington, d C. You strike me as 346 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: a more deliberative type person. How did you moderate or 347 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: modulate what President Trump did or did you not try 348 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: to do that? 349 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: I did not try and do that. I have a 350 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: great sense on that. 351 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: The role of the vice president is to help the 352 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: president be successful in the presidency that he was elected 353 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 3: to advance. One of the reasons I think we had 354 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 3: a very good relationship is that I read something during 355 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: the transition in early twenty seventeen that Walter Mondale had written. 356 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 2: He said in this essay, he said. 357 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: Everyone that comes into the Oval office is looking for something. 358 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 3: They're looking for a decision and to influence a decision. 359 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 3: He said, it can't be like that with the vice president. 360 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 3: He said, the vice president owes the president his opinion 361 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: once and in private, because I would add to that, 362 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: apart from a moral or constitutional principle, what the president's 363 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 3: decides is the decision. And sometimes he'd slip and he'd say, 364 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: what do you think? 365 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: What do you think? 366 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 3: Then he'd say, Mike, wear you on this, And I'd say, 367 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 3: let me talk to you later about that, and he'd go, oh, right, 368 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: right right, because he knew what I knew, and that 369 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 3: was there could be no daylight between the president and 370 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: the vice president. And I think it's the reason why 371 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 3: we accomplished so much in those four years. 372 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 4: I didn't ask you about your wife. Was it love at. 373 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: First sight when you saw her on your part and 374 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: her part? Or how did you meet her? 375 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 3: What was on my part? She was less impressed. It 376 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: took a little time. 377 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: No I saw her. She was playing a guitar up 378 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: in the front of a church. 379 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: I followed her out the back of the church one 380 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 3: Sunday morning, and then I walked her out in the front 381 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 3: of the church. About eighteen months later, it's been forty 382 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: years together and she is the love of my life. 383 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 3: She's an incredible public servant in her own right and 384 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 3: a great teacher, great mom, great grandmother. 385 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: You were born and raised as a Catholic, and then 386 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: at some point you decided to become what's known as 387 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: I'm born again Christian and a Protestant. So was that 388 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: difficult to tell your mother and father that you were 389 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: changing your religion and what was their reaction? 390 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: Well, first, I cherished my Catholic upbringing, eight years of 391 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: Catholic school. 392 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 2: It's really still a foundation in my life. I tell 393 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: people I didn't leave the church. 394 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 3: I left religion by the time I got to high 395 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 3: school that had some social success, and I just decided 396 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 3: David that religion was a cruch. 397 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: Some people needed it. I wasn't going to judge him 398 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: for it, but I didn't need it. 399 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 3: But when I got off to college, I started to 400 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 3: meet some young men that simply talked to me about 401 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 3: being a Christian, and they talked about having a personal 402 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 3: relationship with God through Jesus Christ. And it set me 403 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 3: on a journey my freshman year to really begin to 404 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 3: study the Bible and to examine what the scriptures said. 405 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 3: And it was in the spring of nineteen seventy eight, 406 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: sitting on a hillside at a Christian music festival, like. 407 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: I heard the words. For God so loved the world. 408 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 3: That he gave his only begotten son, that whoever might 409 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: believe in him might not perish but have everlasting life. 410 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 3: I just remember my heart was broken with gratitude for 411 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: what I believe was done for me on the cross, 412 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: and I walked down and committed my life to Jesus Christ. 413 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 3: And it was changed my life forever. And when you 414 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 3: talk about that fateful day in January five years ago, 415 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 3: David for me, the essence of that, and it's the 416 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 3: reason it's the title of my book is that when 417 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 3: I took that oath of office, I believe that I 418 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 3: was making a promise to the American people. 419 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: But also it ended with a prayer, so help me God. 420 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 421 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 422 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: wherever you listen.