1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio M 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: I always knew my mother had a secret. She guarded 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: it fiercely, keeping it under lock and key. That was 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: how I envisioned it, hidden chamber, tucked away in the 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: recesses of my mother's twisted mind. But her secret was 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: too big to be contained, and it would use out 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: like a thick slurry, poisoning her thoughts and covering our 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: family in darkness. That's Justine Cowen, attorney and writer, author 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: of the recent memoir The Secret Life of Dorothy Solmes. 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: Justine's is a story about the long reach of secrecy 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: and its power to shape our deepest relationships. I'm Danny Shapiro, 12 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: and this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept 13 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 14 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. I began my life in 15 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: San Francisco, and when we were six, we moved to 16 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: a wealthy enclave of San Francisco called Hillsboro, UM, which 17 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: had wide, beautiful streets and estates throughout the town UM, 18 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: and it was so exclusive. There were actually no stores 19 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: in Hillsboro UM, just winding roads and that sort of thing. 20 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: And on the outside, our lives looked really perfect. We 21 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: had a beautiful Mediterranean house that my mother kept sparkling 22 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: clean and wonderfully decorated. And Um, every day I would 23 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: wake up and it would probably start with maybe a 24 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: violin lesson, and then I would go off to a 25 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: good school and my mother would pick me up after 26 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: school and we would go down to Woodside, California, which 27 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: was about twenty minutes away, where I would take riding lessons, 28 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: and um, we'd come home for a home cooked meal. 29 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: Following the meal, I might have some diction lessons with 30 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: my mother so that I could hopefully get the English 31 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: accent that she had, although that obviously did not work, 32 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: and then maybe some reading before bed. And so my 33 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: life was filled with tutors and lessons and nice things. 34 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: Tell me about your mother from that time. My mother 35 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: was beautiful. She had lovely, silky dark brown hair and 36 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: beautiful hazel eyes, and she carried herself with style and 37 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: always wore a perfectly put together outfit and just exuded class. 38 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: But that was the persona that she showed to the 39 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: outside world. Um, inside the house she was much more 40 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: her curial and some sometimes she could be volatile. I 41 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: remember some incidences where, for example, she threw my dullhouse 42 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: across the room and it smashed pieces. And another time 43 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: she slend the glass coffee table in the living room 44 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: and shattered it into pieces. So life inside her home 45 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: was not the same as what it appeared to those 46 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: that might be appearing in. What would set her off 47 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: when she would fly into these rages, I never really knew, 48 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: and I think that was part of what created some 49 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: fear in me not wanting to set her off, is 50 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: because you never really knew what the trigger was. I mean, 51 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: sometimes there were some things that you knew would upset her. 52 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes she would retreat to her room and sit alone 53 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: in the dark, and I didn't know why. My earlier 54 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: memories were that I didn't want to upset her, and 55 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: I didn't want to do anything wrong, and that was 56 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: always very important that I don't do anything, And so 57 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: there was a fear. But then as I grew older, 58 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: that fear turned into anger, which turned into hatred, and 59 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: I harbored very deep resentful feelings towards my mother for 60 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: pretty much most of my life. And tell me about 61 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: your father. Oh, I loved my father. Um. He was 62 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: kind and very even I only remember him raising his 63 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: voice me once or twice in my entire life. He 64 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: was an attorney and he would come home after work 65 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: and I would run down the hall and see him, 66 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: and it was just the most exciting part of the day. 67 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: And on the weekends he would bring work home um 68 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: and he would sit in the library and read briefs 69 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: or whatever he may be doing, and I would lie 70 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: on the harbor floor beneath the table where he was 71 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: working and read books while he was there. And it 72 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: just felt comforting to be in his presence. And at 73 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: the same time, there were these moments, these incidents with 74 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: your mother. You write about your first memory of her 75 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: being awakened because she's screaming because she's having a nightmare. Yes, 76 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: And it was when we were in San Francisco, and 77 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: I just heard her screaming, and I ran into the 78 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: bedroom and I remember seeing my father holding my mother 79 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: and she continued to scream, and he told me to 80 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: go back to bed, and then she eventually stopped. And 81 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, later I was told that it was because 82 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: the air raid sirens that are sprinkled around San Francisco 83 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: that had originally been put in in the event the 84 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: Japanese flew across the ocean in World War Two, but 85 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: we're now used for other purposes in San Francisco, such 86 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: as I suppose there was a tsunami or something like 87 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: that had gone off accidentally and it had triggered memories 88 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: of World War Two from my mother. And what were 89 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: some of the stories you were told about your mother, 90 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: or you know, told by your mother about herself while 91 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: you were growing up? You know, I think with with 92 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: family's secrets, so often there are clues um things that 93 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: we don't even register as clues until we have a 94 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: lot more information. But when you're a child, you accept 95 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: the stories that are told to you, you know, by 96 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: your parents, because they're your parents, and it's all you 97 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: really know. Well, I knew that my mother was from England, 98 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: and she had always told me that she came from 99 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: blue Blood, which I came to understand at an early 100 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: age meant some sort of aristocratic blood from England. I 101 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: also knew that she was illegitimate. My mother told me 102 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: that she was from blue Blood, but I have no 103 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: memory of anyone telling me that she was illegitimate, but 104 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: I always knew it. That's so interesting, and yet you 105 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: can't locate how you discovered it or whether you were 106 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: told it's just something that you knew. Yes, it was 107 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: something that I always knew. And I also I knew 108 00:07:54,920 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: that I should never ask about my mother's background. I 109 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: shouldn't ask who my grandmother was. I shouldn't ask anything 110 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: about my grandfather that would trigger an event with my mother. 111 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: I knew that was one of the things that would 112 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: and she would become angry, or she would get upset, 113 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: or she would retreat back to her room. And so 114 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: I just need better than to ask, and so I 115 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: just didn't. In the ninth grade, Justine leaves the manicured 116 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: streets of Hillsboro to attend a prestigious boarding school down 117 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: the coast of California in a town called Ojai. Always 118 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: wanted to put a premium on her daughter's education. Justine's 119 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: mother is the one who pushes her to attend. Justine 120 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: doesn't really want to go, but she goes anyway. Boarding 121 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: school is only one of the many ways Justine's mother 122 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: attempts to shape and groom her throughout her childhood. She 123 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,239 Speaker 1: learns as many skills as humanly possible, musical instruments, languages, athletics, 124 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: even lessons in penmanship and diction. Years later, when she 125 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: asks her father, why did I have to go to 126 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: boarding school? Why did you support it, he says, to 127 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: get you away from your mother. After boarding school, Justine 128 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: goes to Berkeley, which is only forty five minutes from 129 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: where she was raised, but might as well be a 130 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: million miles away in terms of the culture of the 131 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: University of California Berkeley, where she's studying. There, she begins 132 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: to build a life on her own terms. She's finally 133 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: distancing herself from her mother's grip nineteen years old and 134 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: trying to create her own path. But one day the 135 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: phone rings. It's her father calling to tell Justine that 136 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: she needs to come home immediately. It's her mother. She's 137 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: in some sort of trouble. He had called me and 138 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: said that my mother had gotten into her car and 139 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: was driving um to the hospital, and that he'd have 140 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: to go after her and get her to pull over 141 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: her car and then bring her back home. And I 142 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: asked him if there was anything wrong, why was she 143 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: going to the hospital, And he just didn't really respond 144 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: to that, and just asked that I come home and 145 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: take care of her so that he could go to court. 146 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: And what did you discover when you got home? When 147 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: I went home, Um, I walked down the hall and 148 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: looking for my mother and knocked on the bedroom door, 149 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: and my mother was in bed in her nightgown and 150 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: had a notepad in her hand, and she was writing 151 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: something that I couldn't see, and she called me over 152 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: to her, and I looked down at this notepad and 153 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: I still remember what it looks like. It's just seared 154 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: in my memory. It was one of those yellow legal 155 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: notepads with the light green lines, and she had a 156 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: pencil in her hand, and she was just writing over 157 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: and over and over again. Name that I had never 158 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: heard before, Dorothy Sulms, Dorothy Sulms, Dorothy Sulms. And what 159 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: did you, as a college student, a young woman, make 160 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: of that at the time, or did you just want 161 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: to get back to your life and sort of tuck 162 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: that away. I was surprised by what she had said, 163 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: and didn't know who Dorothy Sulms was, But at the 164 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: time I didn't want to know, and so I did 165 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: whatever I could to get out of that room and 166 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: to just extract myself from the situation. Um. You know, 167 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: by that point, I just didn't want to get into 168 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: it with her and was really working on distancing myself 169 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: from her, because that's really when I was most happy. 170 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 171 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: In the Ten Commandments, the fourth commandment states honor thy 172 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: father and thy mother. But sometimes, as in Justine's case, 173 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: it just isn't possible, And the only thing that is 174 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: possible for self preservation and survival is either to completely 175 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: break ties or create a very powerful set of boundaries. 176 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: The first boundaries that I thought up was just geographical. 177 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: I moved to Japan, and then I moved to Washington, 178 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: c And I always made sure to keep a physical 179 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: distance from my mother because I remember when I would 180 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: go home for the holidays, because that was expected, and 181 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: I mean I had to do that, I would start 182 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: to feel anxiety and depression. And two months before I 183 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: would go home, and when I would see my mother 184 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: and she wanted to touch me, and she wanted to 185 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: hug me, um, I would recoil, which you could see 186 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: it on her face that it broke her heart. But 187 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't bring myself to hug her. So the best 188 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: thing for me to do was to just stay away 189 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: as much as I could. Staying away works for a while. 190 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: Justine has a lovely early adulthood. She surrounds herself with 191 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: good friends. She becomes an attorney working in environmental law, 192 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: following her beloved of father's footsteps. But even though she's 193 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: moving on, her relationship with her mother continues to weigh 194 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: her down, as does the secret at the core of 195 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: her mother's history and identity. To Justine's knowledge, her mother's 196 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: name is Eileen Thompson. So who in the world is 197 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: Dorothy Solmes and why does she loom so large in 198 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: her mother's past. The first hint that I had about 199 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: her past, what more than a hint when she started 200 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: to try to tell me about it, was and when 201 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: I was in my late twenties, and she sent me 202 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: a letter. It was a short letter, just a page 203 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: or two, but in it she mentioned that she was 204 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: a foundling, and I had never heard the term foundling before, 205 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: and it was clear that she wanted me to pick 206 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: up the phone and call her and talked to her 207 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: about it, but I decided I didn't want to, so 208 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: we didn't speak of it. Several years later, when I 209 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: was probably in my early to mid thirties, an envelope 210 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: showed up from my mother, and I always knew it 211 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: was from her because she had this wonderful handwriting. And 212 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: I opened it up and there was a six stack 213 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: of pages, and I looked at the front and it 214 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: was clear that it was a memoir, a memoir that 215 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: my mother had written about her life. Did it have 216 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: a title it did? It said Coreum Girl, And I 217 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: didn't know what that meant. I had no idea what 218 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: a Korum girl was, and I didn't want to know um. 219 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: At that point in my life, I was finally creating 220 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: happiness for myself. I was keeping distant from my mother, 221 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: and quite honestly, it felt manipulative. UM. I had wanted 222 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: to know the history of our family for years and years, 223 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: and it wasn't until I had really kind of broken 224 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: free and created my own life that suddenly my mother 225 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: wanted to tell all. And it felt to me like 226 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: she was trying to reel me back in. So I 227 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: put it in an envelope and put it in the 228 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: back of a file cabinet. I mean, I must have 229 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: known that it was important and that I shouldn't just 230 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: toss it away. I saved it as I did the 231 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: letter that she sent years before, but I didn't want 232 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: to read it. When it comes to family's secrets, um, 233 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: there has to be a certain kind of readiness involved, 234 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: Otherwise finding something out at the wrong moment can actually 235 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: end up being destructive, and that we do have some 236 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: kind of internal radar for that. You had a hard 237 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: one life at that point, and you had overcome a 238 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: lot of psychological obstacles and instability that it really could 239 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: be drawn pretty much directly right back to the way 240 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: that your mother had raised you and the way that 241 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: she had been And so that is not a point 242 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: where you wanted to go there. But as you say, 243 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: you tucked it away, it's not like you burned it. 244 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: I must have known that one day I would revisit it. 245 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: I just knew that that wasn't the day. I didn't 246 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: realize that it would be twenty years. What is the day? 247 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: How did that come about? Was it a slow build? 248 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: Was it sort of haunting you in some way? Or 249 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: was there just this eureka moment of now it's a 250 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: time and I need to know. Well, it was after 251 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: another's death, and my mother's death really took me by 252 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: surprise in terms of how it impacted me emotionally. I 253 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: worked so hard to keep an emotional distance from her, 254 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: and when she died, I was at her deathbed and 255 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: I was overwrought. I ran from the room. I saw 256 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: obed like I had never sobbed before. Justine's mother had 257 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: died of Alzheimer's, so Justina is surprised by her reaction 258 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: to her mother's death because the death itself was not sudden. 259 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: Her mother's decline had been gradual, as it so often 260 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: is with Alzheimer's disease. She had been losing her memory 261 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: for years plus. You'd think the history between Justine and 262 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: her mother and the distance between them wouldn't provoke such 263 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: a tidal wave of grief. When I went back home 264 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: to the home that I had with my husband Patrick, 265 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: I was exhausted. I could barely get off the couch 266 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: for days. And even after that, I was just fatigued, 267 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: and I would go out and I would cry for 268 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: no reason. And I was stunned at my reaction. And 269 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: then I just put it away. Um, you know, it 270 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: faded over time, and I just tucked it into the 271 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: back of my mind and went on and life was 272 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: really happy. I had this wonderful man that I had met, 273 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: so loving and kind. His entire family brought me in 274 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: and life was just wonderful. And we went on a 275 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: month long trip to Europe and my husband said, let's 276 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: go to London. Well, I had never been to England, 277 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: and I've traveled quite a bit, but I intentionally never 278 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: went to England because it felt too emotionally powerful, because 279 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: I knew that's where my mother was from. But I said, oh, 280 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: it's gonna be fine. There's not going to be a 281 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: problem here, and I'm gonna be with my husband and 282 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: my mother's you know, two died years ago. It's going 283 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: to be fine. And I went to London and we 284 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: walked around the streets and I could not stop thinking 285 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: about my mother and I didn't know why. And when 286 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: we came back from Europe, when we landed, I again 287 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: became emotional, and it was because I knew that my 288 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: mother wasn't going to call me, even though I never 289 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: wanted my mother to call me. So I sat at 290 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: my computer and I typed in the words that I 291 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: had heard only once before, thirty years before, Dorothy Sums. 292 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: And that didn't get me very far. But then I 293 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: remembered the other word that I had learned when my 294 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: mother had reached out when I was in my late twenties. 295 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: In that letter the word Foundling, and I put in 296 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: Foundling and London, and then there it was the Foundling Hospital. 297 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: And that was the first step. And I emailed someone 298 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: at the Foundling Hospital which is now called Quorum and said, 299 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: I think my mother might have been Dorothy Sums. Now, 300 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: how you've put something together here and you think maybe 301 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: your mother was known as Darthy Solmes when she was 302 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: a child, when she was a foundling at the Foundling Hospital. Yes, yeah, 303 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Justine dives into research. She digs 304 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: into the history of the Foundling Hospital, both during the 305 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: time her mother was there and the institution's history dating 306 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: back to seventeen thirty nine. She also returns to her 307 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: mother's manuscript, which is so painful to read that she 308 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: can only read it a few pages at a time. 309 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: It's interesting, looking back on it, that the first thing 310 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: that I did was reach out to a complete stranger 311 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: in London to start my research instead of just going 312 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: into my foul cabinet and picking up my mother's manuscript 313 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: to get me started. Why do you think that was? 314 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: Because I think it was going to be too painful, 315 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: and I was afraid what I was going to learn. 316 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: And I think that as an attorney, I'm very accustomed 317 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: to research, and that being able to do the research 318 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: in the way that I would handle any sort of 319 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: case that I was working on allowed me to do 320 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: it in a way that didn't feel frightening and it 321 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: felt comforting. And that makes a lot of sense. To 322 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: understand what my mother went through, you really have to 323 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: go back to the beginning of the Family Hospital. It 324 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: started in the mid seventeen hundreds, and it was created 325 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 1: two raise illegitimate children to pay degree changed chamber pots 326 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: for Britain's elite, and to serve them. It served a 327 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: second purpose, and the second purpose was to take a 328 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: woman who had had an unfortunate pregnancy and two restore 329 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: her back to her prior position. The only way that 330 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: that could be done is to take the child and 331 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: to keep the child a secret, and that secret that 332 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: the child itself was a secret and was shameful. That's 333 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: really what shaped the founding hospital for the next two 334 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: centuries and what also shaped my mother. In the early 335 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, my grandmother and her name was Lena Weston 336 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: m a name that I had never heard before until 337 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: I had gone to London and dug through the files. 338 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: She had become pregnant and her brother had kicked her out, 339 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: and she had nowhere to go, so she reached out 340 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: to the founding hospital and asked that they take her child. 341 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: It was my mother. They didn't just take the child. Instead, 342 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: my grandmother had to go through a very rigorous process 343 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: in which she had to prove that she was a 344 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: respectable woman and that if they took this child away 345 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: from her, that she would be able to return to 346 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: a virtuous life. The process included reaching out to, of 347 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: course the men in her life, her doctor, her pastor, 348 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: and her brother, and they all had to attest that 349 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: she was a virtuous woman. And then she actually had 350 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: to have an in person interview with the governors of 351 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: the hospital, who were all very well to do men 352 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: who um presumably quizzed her on how it was that 353 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: she came to be in this situation and how she 354 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: would conduct her life if they granted her the favor 355 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: of taking her child from her. Apparently she was virtuous enough, 356 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: and she had to go and on a particular day 357 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: turned my mother over to the Fothering Hospital when my 358 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: mother was two months old. And what year was this, 359 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: That was nineteen two. Justine's mother spends twelve years in 360 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: the Foundling Hospital's care. The first five years she lives 361 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: with a foster mother, which was a practice dating back 362 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 1: to the Foundling Hospital's early history. When the children who 363 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: were in the hospital were discovered not to be doing 364 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: very well, they'd be shipped off to the country to 365 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: be wet nursed at the age of five. No matter 366 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: whether the foster mother um and sometimes a foster father 367 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: loved their foster child or not, the child would be 368 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: taken away and sent to the institutional facility, which when 369 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: my mother as a child was in Brokemstaed just outside 370 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: of London, and they would be dropped off unceremoniously. Most 371 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: of them were not told that they were even leaving. 372 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: Their countless stories of children just being placed on a 373 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: bus or a coach as they called it, and they 374 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: thought they were coming back home at the end of 375 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: the day, but instead they were dropped off at the 376 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: family hospital. They were taken in, their clothes were removed, 377 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: they were put in bathtubs, you know, two or three 378 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: at a time. They would never see those clothes again. 379 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: They would share their heads and they would sit there 380 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: shivering and then sobbing, not knowing what was going on. 381 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: Really just treated like prisoners and put in these uniforms, 382 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: uniforms that had not changed since they were first designed 383 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: in the mid sev hundreds, and then that would start 384 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: their life at the family hospital. As Justine learns more 385 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: about the way the foundlings were treated, living their lives 386 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: in shapeless uniforms with sheared heads, she can't help but 387 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: sink back to some of the strange aspects of our 388 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: own childhood too. The clothes her mother bought her were 389 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: always too big, extremely unfashionable, baggy sack like garments that 390 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: must have resembled, perhaps subconsciously, to Eileen, the clothes she 391 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: had been forced to wear as a child. And once, 392 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: when Justine tried to cut her own hair in the 393 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: style of her favorite Charlie's Angel, she botched it, of course, 394 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: and this sent her mother into a panic. Promptly, Eileen 395 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: arranged to have Justine's hair fixed by a fancy San 396 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: Francisco stylist. What must have crossed her mother's mind when 397 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: she saw her child with her hair all chopped off. 398 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: Justine also soon discovers there are striking physical similarities between 399 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: the Foundling Hospital and her own childhood home. I still 400 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: remember being in the Founding Museum and walking into the room, 401 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: and it was a very earnate room, and it contained 402 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: a lot of the furniture that the governors used, and 403 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: there across the room were these two chairs that were 404 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: so familiar to me because they were the two They 405 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: looked almost exactly like the two chairs that sat in 406 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,239 Speaker 1: our living room as a child. And I looked at 407 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: those chairs and began to cry and just was very emotional. 408 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: And at the time, I don't think I understood why, 409 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,959 Speaker 1: And later I understood that when I was at the 410 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: Founding Museum for the first time, I was making the 411 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: connection between what had happened in the past two years ago, 412 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: this institution that brutalized thousands of children, um and how 413 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: that connected to our family, and it put a pin 414 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: in a sense of telling me, this is what happened 415 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: to my family. Because the relationship between my mother and 416 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: I was always so fraught that I could never ever 417 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: completely understand why, and that time, when I saw those chairs, 418 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: it was symbolic to me that what had happened to 419 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: our family was bigger than me and my mother, and 420 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: that we had been swept up in this institution that 421 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: had served Britain's ruling class for over two hundred years. 422 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: And in a way, through this journey, I've actually felt 423 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: lucky that I have been able to uncover everything that 424 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: happened to my family. Having this troubled relationship with someone 425 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: that you're supposed to love is more common than I'd 426 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: ever thought. Of course, learns that that is far from 427 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: the case. But I'm fortunate and that I can put something. 428 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: I can put it in this tangible box of this 429 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: is what happened to our family. I can trace it 430 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: all the way back to the seventeen hundreds and move 431 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: all the way forward. The shame that was put on 432 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: those women in the seventeen hundreds existed in my childhood home. 433 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: You know, you spoke earlier about the recoiling from your mother, 434 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: literally the sort of inability to bear her touch or 435 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: to touch her, and you liken it too, or you 436 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: draw a line in a way through time to how 437 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: she must have been treated in the very very formative 438 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: early you know, weeks and months of of her infancy 439 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: and not being held and not being touched, and that's 440 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: the stuff that you don't get to redo, and it 441 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: it lingers in a kind of traumatic way. And the 442 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: whole idea of inherited trauma or epo genetic trauma, that 443 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: perhaps your feeling of recoiling was part of that same pattern, 444 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: which is very painful, but I think also healing because 445 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: there's at last the possibility of an explanation for it. 446 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: I used to make lists of things that my mother 447 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: had done and go over them in my head in 448 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: a sense to justify how I felt about her. And 449 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: the list was never good enough. And I always knew 450 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: that the fact that you know, she turned my doll 451 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: house across the room or in a table, that those 452 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: really weren't the reasons why I felt the way I 453 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: did about my mother, but I never could understand why, 454 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: and I frequently thought that meant there was something wrong 455 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: with me, um that I was a bad daughter, or 456 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of feelings would swirl around in 457 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: my head, some that I wasn't even aware of, and 458 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't until I undercovered the story that 459 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: I realized that I wasn't to blame, but also my 460 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: mother wasn't to blame, but that we'd really been caught 461 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: up in this tragic story. Ultimately, Justine is able to 462 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: access a lot of her mother's files, files her mother 463 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: had never been able to see because of our cane 464 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: laws designed to continue the secret and protect it until 465 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: all parties are no longer living. Justine discovers that her grandmother, Lena, 466 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: had been trying for years, heartbreaking Lisa to send things 467 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: to Eileen slash Dorothy, money, letters, asking after her, and then, finally, 468 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: when the war comes to England and there are air raids, 469 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: Lena begs the governors of the Foundling hospital to allow 470 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: her to take her daughter away where she'll be safer. 471 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: The governors are not inclined to bend or break the rules, 472 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: but how else to say this? Because Eileen slash Dorothy 473 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: has been such a difficult foundling, rebelling, breaking the rules, 474 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: even running away, they decide that it's perfectly fine for 475 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: her to be taken off their hands. So mother and 476 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: daughter actually are reunited. Que the violins right, not so much, 477 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: After twelve years, a lot of damage has already been done. 478 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: It was heartbreaking when I discovered the letters that my 479 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: grandmother had written. In the archives in London, and it 480 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: was very emotional to see not just a few letters, 481 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: but letter after letter after letter that she had written 482 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: by hand and on any scrap of paper that she 483 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: could find. I mean, some of it was during wartime 484 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: and she would write and write and asking about her 485 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: little girl, and you could feel the love. And then 486 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: you think about my mother um as a little girl 487 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: who had never been touched in a loving way, which 488 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: was by design. They were being raised to be servants 489 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: and love and comfort and affection had no place in 490 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: that kind of training. And when they were reunited, I 491 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: had this hope myself that somehow there would be this 492 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: loving bond created. You know, years later it it didn't happen, 493 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: and it's clear they became estranged at some point in time. 494 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: And I think that once the bond is broken or 495 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: not allowed to form, sometimes there's not a lot that 496 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: can be done. And I think a lot about the 497 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: bond between my mother and myself, and I think, well, 498 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: the founding hospital in the social maories that forced my 499 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 1: grandmother to give up her child broke the bonds between 500 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: her and her daughter, and that carried down into the 501 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: next generation. All these broken bonds between mothers and daughters 502 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: complicate Justine's feelings about the possibility of becoming a mother herself. 503 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: I definitely was afraid that I would be a good mother, 504 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: and that I would repeat the mistakes that my mother 505 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: had made. But actually my greatest fear was that I 506 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 1: would have a daughter that felt about me the way 507 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: that I thought about my mother, and that terrified me. 508 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: And since I've gotten married, I have nieces, and some 509 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: of them I have developed just an extraordinary bond with. 510 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: And just the other day I was talking with my 511 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: husband and I said, you know, I think I would 512 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: have been a good mother. You end up being able 513 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: to meet with two different women who had known your 514 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: mother back before your mother came to the United States, 515 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: Bernice and Lydia, who had been in the Foundling hospital 516 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: with your mother. As you're speaking with Lydia, you're worried 517 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: that she's kind of getting this sense that this journey 518 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: of yours to learn as much as you possibly can 519 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: about your mother's history had been motivated by your great 520 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: love for your mother, and you don't want to sort 521 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: of falsely let that stand. And you say to Lydia 522 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: that your relationship with your mother was troubled, and Lydia 523 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: responds in this beautiful way. She says to you, of 524 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: course it was how would she have known how to 525 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: be a mother? And it felt to me like that 526 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: was some kind of turning point for you, or in 527 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: all the layers, sort of sluffing away of permission to 528 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: have this be the story that it is and have 529 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: it not be your fault and not be your doing. 530 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: That felt like the last piece of it sort of 531 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: falling into place. Did it feel that way to you, Well, 532 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: it was a very powerful moment for me, and it 533 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: did give me some permission to at least start exploring 534 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: for giving myself, and that was part of the journey. 535 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: I didn't even realize that I was going to undertake here. 536 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: To close out this remarkable story, is Justine reading from 537 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: the deeply moving ending of her memoir. My mother and 538 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: I were about the same age when we each felt 539 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: an irresistible pull to understand the past and how it 540 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: had shaped who we had become. I can't claim to 541 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: fully understand what finally compelled me to uncover my mother's secrets, 542 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: an obsession that spanned the course of two years. I 543 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: do know that the anger I had shouldered for much 544 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: of my life had taken its toll, the sheer intensity 545 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: of my feelings for my mother, the loathing that was 546 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: always simmering just under the surface, where burdens with a 547 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: palpable weight. Perhaps I had hoped that understanding my mother's 548 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: past might provide me with a sense of peace. But 549 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: my mother's journey was not about anger. It was about shame. 550 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: It is lonely to have no love for one's mother. Well, 551 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 1: I had hoped that my feelings would change. Love cannot 552 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: be forced or conjured up. Perhaps she was not the 553 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: only one with rounds too deep to heal. But in 554 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: my quest to learn about my mother's past, I realized 555 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: that I had come to know someone special, someone I 556 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: wanted to hold the comfort and protect. That person was 557 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: a little girl with a smattering of freckles and silky 558 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: brown hair, feisty and courageous, and probably full of dreams. 559 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: I had grown to love that little girl. Her name 560 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: was Dorothy Songs. M h Family Secrets is a production 561 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,879 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Molly's a Core is the story 562 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If you 563 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: have a family secret you'd like to share, please leave 564 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: us a voicemail and your story could appear on an 565 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight secret zero. 566 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: That's the number zero. You can also find me on 567 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: Instagram at Danny writer, and if you'd like to know 568 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: more about the story that inspired this podcast, check out 569 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 570 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 571 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.