1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankie Listener Discretion advised King Richard 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: the Third was preparing for battle. After three decades of 4 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: the civil conflict that have come to be known as 5 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: the Wars of the Roses, the fighting between two rival 6 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: claimants to the throne of England was finally reaching its head. 7 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Richard knew as he was preparing to face off against 8 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: his rival, Henry Tudor, that this would be the end 9 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: of the fighting. This battle at Bosworth Field would be, 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: as Richard remarked, the end of either wars or his life, 11 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: though pop culture portrayals in the Senate curies since Richard's 12 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: death have often painted him in the imagination as a 13 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: middle aged man. On August twenty second, fourteen eighty five, 14 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: Richard the Third was only thirty two years old. He 15 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: would lead his men into battle, descending into the fray himself, 16 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: and so he wore heavy armor and a helmet covered 17 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: his face. And whether it was a symbolic decision or 18 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: whether it was a strategic one meant to inspire and 19 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: rally his troops atop his helmet, Richard the Third secured 20 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: his actual crown on that morning at Bosworth Field. Henry 21 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: Tudor's men approached first. They had the advantage of readying 22 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: themselves on the field of battle before Richard's men. But 23 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: soon the king descended on Tudor with full strength, and 24 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: its seemed like Richard the Third would be victorious. His 25 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: men knocked over the Tudor standard bearer, the man holding 26 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: the banner which marked the position of their commander. It 27 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: was an incredibly powerful and symbolic move that would have 28 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: alerted Tudor soldiers to the fact that their captain might 29 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: be dead. But then the tide shifted. Tudor had reserve 30 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: men led by a noble named Lord Stanley, and Stanley's 31 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: fresh army overwhelmed the exhausted Riccardian men. At some point, 32 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: King Richard was thrown from his horse. Shakespeare famously imagined 33 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: him in the heat of battle shouting my kingdom for 34 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: a horse, and then the king, fighting on foot, lost 35 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: his helmet. King Richard the Third, the last English king 36 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: to die in battle, was struck down by a blow 37 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: to the back of the head strong enough to dislodge 38 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: bone and brain. Word of his death spread across the 39 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: battlefield Like a ripple. The crown that Richard had been 40 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: wearing into battle had fallen among the dirt and blood. 41 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: It was recovered, and Lord Stanley, as kingmaker, whose soldiers 42 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: had turned the tide of the battle, had the honor 43 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: of placing it atop Henry Tudor's head. From the dead 44 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: temples of this bloody wretch have I plucked off to 45 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: grace thy brows withal Stanley says of the crown in Shakespeare. 46 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: And though the real Stanley almost certainly had found the 47 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: crown in the mud and had not actually pulled it 48 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: off of Richard's dead body, it was a profound moment 49 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: of symbolism. There would be no rush for Henry Tudor's 50 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: official royal coronation. He was crowned on the battlefield Henry 51 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: the seventh, As for Richard, while history is told by 52 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: the victors, and history was being written very quickly in 53 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: real time after the Battle of Bosworth Field. For Henry 54 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: the Seventh's claim to the throne to be legitimate, his 55 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: narrative that Richard the third was a villainous usurper needed 56 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: to be legitimate as well. Richard's dead body was stripped 57 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: and paraded publicly, after all, as many people as possible 58 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: needed to know that the former king was actually dead. 59 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: The Dead Richard Parade proceeded to the nearby town of Leicester, 60 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: where it underwent whatever humiliations and mockery would have felt 61 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: fitting for a murderous tyrant struck down, But from there 62 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: sources petered out. Some say that Richard's bones had been 63 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: thrown in the River Sore. Others wrote that he was 64 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: buried in the chapel of Greyfriars Priory. But over the centuries, 65 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: the exact fate of the lost King's body, even the 66 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: exact location of the priory itself, disappeared from record. A king, 67 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: one of the most famous kings of England, was just gone, 68 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: but not forever. Five hundred and twenty seven years after 69 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: Richard the Third was struck down in battle, a team 70 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: of archaeologists, galvanized by a passionate amateur named Philip A. Langley, 71 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: would uncover his final resting place in one of the 72 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: most exciting archaeological discoveries of the twenty five first century. 73 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: From under the staff parking lot of a municipal building, 74 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: the bones of Richard the Third were brought to the surface, 75 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: and with them a fascinating conversation about how history is 76 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: written and who gets to write it. Because this isn't 77 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: just the story of a man from the fifteenth century. 78 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: It's a story about Philippa Langley and the University of 79 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: Leicester scientists, a story of a mid century detective novel 80 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: and a king Richard the Third fan club. It's the 81 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: story of a team of genetics researchers and bureaucrats and 82 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: a furniture designer in Canada. For years, Richard the Third 83 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: had been there, buried just beneath two feet of earth 84 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: in a parking lot, waiting for his story to be rediscovered. 85 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: Incredibly enough, Richard was found on most beneath a reserved 86 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: parking space marked plainly with the letter R. I'm Danish 87 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: Schwartz and this is noble blood. Pretty much as soon 88 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: as Henry the seventh became King of England, he set 89 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: about stabilizing his claim to the throne. Whether you believe 90 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: that includes him killing two princes imprisoned in the Tower 91 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of London who may or may not have already been 92 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: dead by the time Henry became king is not something 93 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: I will be weighing in on on this particular episode, 94 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: but Henry the seventh did begin solidifying his power through propaganda. 95 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: Even the nomenclature of the Wars of the Roses is 96 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: a bit of Tudor trickery. Though the Yorks did occasionally 97 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: use the White World as their sigil, it was used 98 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: much more frequently after the fact, in order to give 99 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: Henry's claim to the throne a clean, digestible narrative. On 100 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: one side, there was the red Rose of Lancaster, on 101 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: the other the white Rose of York. Henry, taking up 102 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: the Lancastrian claim, married Elizabeth of York and united England 103 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: under a new dynasty, the Tutors with a new sigil, 104 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: a rose that's red and white. But as I've alluded 105 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: to before, though Henry was a descendant of King Edward 106 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: the Third, his claim to the throne through lineage was, 107 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: to put it, mildly shaky, especially compared to Richard the 108 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: Third's claim. There's a fine line between hero who just 109 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: claimed his throne legitimately and opposed a tyrant and guy 110 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: who just murdered the rightful king, and Henry was determined 111 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: to land on the side of the former. A young 112 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: page in the household of Henry's Lord Chancellor proved to 113 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: be exactly what Henry Tudor needed. This young page wrote 114 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: a book entitled The History of Richard the Third, which, 115 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: in the words of Stephen Greenblatt at The New Yorker quote, 116 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: wove together every dark rumor about Richard's brief life into 117 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: a brilliant narrative which paints a portrait of a bold, gifted, 118 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: and ineradicably evil man whose evil was marked in his 119 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: very body end quote. The history described Richard as short, 120 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: crooked backed, with one shoulder higher than the other, and 121 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: a personality that matched with the author saw as God's 122 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: judgment made visible. Quote. He was close and secret, a deep, 123 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: dissimilar lowly of continents end quote. In other words, this 124 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: man was born evil, a despicable man, and a worse king, 125 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: and the fact that he was short and twisted was 126 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: evidence of that. The page who wrote this history, in 127 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: case you were wondering, was Thomas Moore. The Tudor propaganda train 128 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: continued on with Shakespeare's famous History that sees Richard as 129 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: no less of a villain, but a more complicated one, 130 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: a man lonely and plodding and all too aware of 131 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: how his hunchback and disfigured arm hold back his ambitions. 132 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: It's a distinction between the two texts that I think 133 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: is interesting enough to consider for another minute. Back to 134 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: Greenblatt at the New Yorker quote. In Moore's history, Richard's 135 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: physical deformity is an uncanny sign of his viciousness, a 136 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: kind of preternatural portence or emblem. In Shakespeare, it is 137 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: the root condition of his psychopathology. There is nothing mechanical 138 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: in this conditioning, certainly no suggestion that all men with 139 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: twisted spines become cunning murderers. But Shakespeare does suggest that 140 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: a child unloved by his mother, mocked by his peers, 141 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: and forced to regard himself as a monster, will develop 142 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: certain compensatory psychological strategies, some of them both destructive and 143 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: self destructive. End quote. Complexly motivated or not. Thanks to 144 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: tudor writers, Richard the Third's reputation as a ruler in 145 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: the popular culture was well established by the twentieth century, 146 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: to the degree that to defend him, or even point 147 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: out the way his tutor propaganda misinformed our perceptions of him, 148 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: was outside of academic circles. The contrary position, if you 149 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: asked the average person on the street about Richard the Third, 150 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: they would almost certainly come back with words like hunchback, scheming, murderer. 151 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: Though Edinburgh based screenwriter Phil B. Langley would lead the 152 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: charge of uncovering Richard the Third's body in twenty twelve, 153 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: she was not the first person to suggest that maybe 154 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: the King's reputation was unwarranted as far as modern popular 155 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: culture goes. One of the biggest pillars in the Richard 156 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: the Third Reclamation movement was actually a nineteen fifty one 157 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: detective novel by Josephine Tay called The Daughter of Time. 158 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: In the book, Tay's recurring detective Alan Grant, not to 159 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: be confused with Jurassic Parks. Alan Grant is stuck in 160 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: bed with a broken leg, bored without his job. Grant 161 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: sees a portrait of Richard and is struck by the 162 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: man's apparent kindness. Grant is a detective with a preternatural 163 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: talent for judging people's guilt and innocence based on their 164 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: face and his gut feelings, and so upon seeing Richard's face, 165 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: Grant thinks, well, that man couldn't have murdered his two 166 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: nephews with the help of a research archivist, Grant pours 167 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: through every book and text available to him, very real 168 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: books and texts, I might add, as he builds an 169 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: argument that the reader can follow along with every step 170 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: of the way, that Richard Third was not in fact 171 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: the likeliest culprit for the murder of his nephews. Tay's 172 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: book made a massive impact on popular and intellectual culture, 173 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: and it was the first in a wave of books 174 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: and media in the fifties and sixties revisiting the history 175 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: of Richard the Third. Though a group of amateur historians 176 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: and Richard the Third defenders had formed a group in 177 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine calling themselves the Fellowship of the White Boar, 178 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: after Richard's heraldic badge, the group had mostly fallen by 179 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: the wayside in the preceding decades. A daughter of Time 180 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: Reader named a Soulda Wygram was galvanized enough by the 181 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: book to reform the group under a new name, the 182 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: Richard the Third Society. Philippa Langley would form the society's 183 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: Edinburgh chapter. Langley had first encountered Richard Third in a 184 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: biography written by Paul Murray Kendall, and since then she 185 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: had been devoted to rehabilitating the image of an English 186 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: ruler she believed had been wrongfully maligned. The legacy of 187 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: King Richard the Third's missing body nagged at her. Langley 188 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: was research reaching a screenplay that she wanted to write 189 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: about Richard, and so she went to Leicester to scope 190 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: out the scene where it was rumored the king's body 191 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: was taken after he was killed. Langley described walking over 192 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: the car park where she believed Richard was buried, lingering 193 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: at the reserved spot with the painted R quote. I 194 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: just felt like I was walking on Richard the Third's grave. 195 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: I can't explain it end quote. A medieval historian named 196 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: John Rouse had written a few years after the Battle 197 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: of bosworth Field that Richard the Third was buried in 198 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: Greyfriars Priory, but even though that area in modern Leicster 199 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: was called Greyfriars, the church itself was gone somewhere under 200 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: a parking lot, a school yard, a street. The church 201 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: had been demolished in fifteen thirty eight after Henry the 202 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: eighth Henry the seventh son dissolved the monasteries the Tudor dynasty, 203 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: inadvertently adding insult to injury. I suppose Langley's intuition wasn't 204 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: pulled out of thin air. In the nineteen eighties, an 205 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: academic named David Baldwin suggested that Richard might be buried 206 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: under that parking lot, but no one seemed that interested 207 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: in well doing anything about it. It would be a 208 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: lot of money and a lot of trouble for something 209 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: that was basically a theory, a historical rumor. A dig 210 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: would cost tens of thousands of dollars, maybe more experts 211 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: would need to be galvanized. Off site parking would have 212 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: to be arranged, and even if they found some random bones, 213 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: which again was no guarantee at all, who could even 214 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: say if they were Richard the Third's. But Langley's mission 215 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: was now officially underway. She would pick up the man 216 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: of finding justice for Richard by finding Richard himself. After all, 217 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: to quote Alan Grant, the detective in A Daughter in Time, 218 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: if you can't be a pioneer, what's wrong with leading 219 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: a crusade? There's that old saying about constant water and 220 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: its effect on stone end quote. It took Langley years, 221 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: literal years years of repeatedly requesting that the University of 222 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: Leicester undertake the dig in the Social Services Department parking 223 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: lot aka the best guess for where the buried former 224 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: location of Greyfriars Priory would be where Richard might be 225 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: buried nothing. But then a miracle of science and research occurred. 226 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: A historian named John Ashton Hill was doing research on 227 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: Richard the Third's sister and he made a breakthrough. He 228 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: had been able to trace the matrilineal line of descent 229 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: mother to daughter from Richard's mom and sister to a 230 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: modern woman named Joy Ibsen who lived in Canada. Richard 231 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: the Third had no living descendants and being able to 232 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: trace his matrilineal line of descent was a huge deal. 233 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: One because it's a fun cocktail party conversation starter for 234 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: that family in Canada, but also because now if a 235 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: body was unearthed in Leicester, there would be a way 236 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: to determine whether or not it actually was Richard the 237 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: Third using mitochondrial DNA. This is a podcast on history, 238 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: not genetics, but in very very simplistic terms, the mitochondria 239 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: is the powerhouse of the cell. Kidding, but basically, most 240 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: human DNA is located in a cell nucleus, but a 241 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: tiny part of the genome is located in the mitochondria 242 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: and the DNA of people from the same matrilineal line 243 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: will have identical sequences. Langley invited Ashton Hill to give 244 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: a lecture in Scotland through the Richard the Third Society, 245 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: and the two of them, along with a couple of 246 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: their fellow Ricardians, officially formed the Looking for Richard project. 247 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: The funding was the most important hurdle, but eventually, by 248 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: securing documentary television interest and raising considerable funds through donations 249 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: of members of the Richard the Third Society both in 250 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: Europe and in the United States, the requisite institutions in 251 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: Leicester agreed on the dig. The University of Leicester archaeologist 252 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: Richard Buckley, who was the dig's project manager, knew that 253 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: success was unlikely. He told Langley to keep her expectations 254 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: in check. Fifty to fifty at best for finding the 255 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: church and nine to one against finding the grave, he said. 256 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: After a few months of preparation of testing the site 257 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: and researching possible trenched dig locations, the dig officially began 258 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: on August twenty fifth, twenty twelve. After just one day 259 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: they found human bones. It took another week to carefully 260 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: dig back and unearth what was soon revealed to be 261 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: an undisturbed human skeleton, missing its feet, but almost entirely complete, 262 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: near what would have been the choir of the church, 263 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 1: buried in a place of honor. The body wasn't buried 264 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: in a coffin, and it wasn't covered by a shroud. 265 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: It had been hurriedly dumped into a grave that was 266 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: too small. Most asonishing of all, the body's spine was 267 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: curved in a visible, pronounced s shape. This man, when 268 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: he had been alive, must have been hunched over one 269 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: shoulder taller than the other. They had found Richard the third, 270 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: at least they hoped they had. Now they just needed 271 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: to prove it. Analysis of the body determined that it 272 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: was a man in his late twenties or early thirties 273 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: who died in battle between fourteen fifty five and fifteen forty. 274 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: All of that was in line with Richard, who died 275 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 1: at thirty two in fourteen eighty five. The scientists also 276 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: proved that the body would have had a high protein 277 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: diet with plenty of meat and expensive fish, which would 278 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: have been available to an incredibly privileged class of person 279 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: in the fourteen hundreds. They also digitally reconstructed the body's 280 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: face based on its skull, and it looked like portraits 281 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: we have of Richard. And then there was the hunchback. 282 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: Some Richard the Third supporters had dismissed the idea of 283 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: Richard having a hunchback as pure Tudor fiction, but no, 284 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: here it was. The body that they found in the 285 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: parking lot had a pronounced visible s shape severe scoliosis, which, 286 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: if it hadn't given Richard an outright hunchback, certainly would 287 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: have made one shoulder sit higher than the other. This 288 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: detail thrills me. It makes the discovery of Richard the 289 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: Third's body so much more interesting in my mind, because really, 290 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: what does the fact that Richard had scoliosis or even 291 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: a hunchback say about his personality? Absolutely nothing. Yet for 292 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: centuries it's been a primary factor in our understanding of 293 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: rich Id. Tudor writers attempted to use the hunchback as 294 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: a metaphor or motivator, and Riccardians tried to dismiss it 295 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: in their quest to repaint Richard as a straight backed hero. 296 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: History is storytelling, and stories love metaphors. Heroes are handsome 297 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: and tall, princesses are beautiful villains have crookbacks and shriveled hands, 298 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: But that's not how the real world works. Richard might 299 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: have been guilty of killing his nephews, or he might 300 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: have been entirely innocent, or he might have been guilty 301 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: of a slew of other terrible things, but none of 302 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: that would be because of how his spine was shaped. 303 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: I find it fascinating. Anyway. Back to the scientific research, 304 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: the matrilineal DNA proved to be the most conclusive piece 305 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: of evidence in conjunction with all of the other evidence. 306 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: The researchers at the University of Leicester had also tested 307 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: DNA from the patrilineal line father to son for fifteen generations. 308 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: But even though the two modern descendants they found had 309 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: DNA patterns that matched each other, neither of them matched 310 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: the body that was supposed to be Richard. Well, that's 311 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: a problem, but not really a big problem. You see, 312 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: every generation there's a risk of false paternity, someone identifying 313 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: someone as the father who wasn't, And in the fifteen 314 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: generations between Richard the Third and now among feuding nobles, 315 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: there are plenty of historians who can point to specific 316 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: cases that might have thrown off the patrilineal line, but 317 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: matrilineal DNA, well, it's much harder to misidentify someone as 318 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: the mother. Doctor Torry King at the University of Leicester 319 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: was able to extract the mitochondrial DNA from the body 320 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: they dug up and compare it to the DNA of 321 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: two of the living descendants of Richard's sister. One of 322 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: the descendants was a cabinet maker named Michael Ibsen, son 323 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: of the Canadian Joy Ibsen, who had been identified years earlier. 324 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: All of the DNA samples from the matrilineal line shared 325 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: a rare type of mitochondrial DNA carried by only one 326 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: to two percent of the population. It was a match, 327 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: according to The New York Times. When doctor King saw 328 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: the results, she quote went very quiet, then did a 329 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: little dance around the laboratory end quote. So as the 330 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: University of Leicester made clear beyond a reasonable doubt the 331 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: body did belong to Richard the Third. The next question 332 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: was what could it teach us. The killing wound had 333 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: been a blow to the head, most likely from a 334 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: halberd that hit Richard from behind below his left ear 335 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: with enough force that it knocked away bone and brain. 336 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: Richard's helmet evidently had fallen off or been removed at 337 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: some point in combat, which gives credence to the way 338 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: that Shakespeare painted the scene with Richard having fallen from 339 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: his horse and fighting on foot in the fray. There 340 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: were a number of other wounds on Richard's body, but 341 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: because they were in places that armor would have been covering, 342 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: scientists and historians determined that they were what's known as 343 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: humiliation wounds committed to Richard after he was already dead, 344 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: possibly when they were carrying the body from Bosworth Field 345 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: to Leicester. Most news outlets and historians, when they're speaking 346 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: about it publicly leave it just there, just describing them 347 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: as humiliation injuries. But in case you're curious, and my 348 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: apologies in advance for this. In this case, it means 349 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: that Richard had wounds the face, and also that someone 350 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: attempted to stick a knife or sword or dagger up 351 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: his deceased buttocks. Richard's naked body was thrown over horseback 352 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 1: and brought from Bosworth Field to Leicester, where Friars, no 353 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: doubt terrified at the regime change happening in real time, 354 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: tried to bury him as quickly as possible. Richard was 355 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: buried in a shallow grave at the head of gray 356 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: Friar's Priory, near the choir, naked and with no winding 357 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: sheet or shroud. The grave was so small that Richard, 358 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: who had only been five to two, had to have 359 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: his neck pressed forward and upright so that he would 360 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: fit in the hole. The skeleton was also found with 361 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: its hands close together pulled over its right hips, which 362 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: indicate that Richard's hands may have been tied together at 363 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: the time. Neither arm was shrunken or shriveled, and there 364 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: Richard stayed underground as the world above him changed until 365 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: summer twenty twelve, when the archaeologists at the University of 366 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: Leicester announced that the bones exhumed beneath the parking lot 367 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: were beyond a reasonable doubt, the last Plantagenet King of England. 368 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: They arranged for Richard to be presented on a black 369 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: velvet lined table under a glass case for journalists and 370 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: their public to see. Two chaplains sat in the room 371 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: as journalists filed in providing the dignity that the university 372 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: said that the king was owed. It would be another 373 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: several years before bureaucratic red tape would allow poor Richard 374 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: to reach his final resting place with rival factions vying 375 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: for power in a way that resembles a much lower 376 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: stakes archaeology based War of the Roses. Members of the 377 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: Richard the Third Society had voiced their opinion that Richard 378 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: should be interred with other English kings at Westminster Abbey. 379 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: A group comprised of Plantagenet descendants sued for the right 380 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: to bury Richard near his lands in York, but in 381 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: the end the ruling was made that the body would 382 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: be buried there in Leicester, in an Anglican cathedral, just 383 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: two hundred yards from the parking lot where Richard had 384 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: been found. It seems the legal system ruled in the 385 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: manner consistent with the British Museum's approach to possession finder's keepers. 386 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: On March twenty sixth, twenty fifteen, Richard the Third was 387 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: buried in a ceremony with the pomp and circumstance befitting 388 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: a king. The Archbishop of Canterbury presided the ancestral research 389 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: had revealed that the actor Benedict Cumberbatch was a relative 390 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: of Richard the Third, and he read a poem. This 391 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: was twenty fifteen, Benedict Cumberbatch was hot as they came. 392 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: Both Philippa Langley and John Ashton Hills were present too. 393 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: The coffin that Richard the Third was buried in was beautiful, 394 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: polished to glistening, made of golden English oak and ewe. 395 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: It was constructed by hand for this very occasion to 396 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: inter a king. But it wasn't built by someone who 397 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: specialized in coffins. King Richard Third's coffin was constructed by 398 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: Michael Ibsen, the cabinet maker from Canada whose DNA had 399 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: proved to be instrumental in bringing Richard to his final 400 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: resting place. That's the story of the unearthing and reburial 401 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: of Richard the Third. But keep listening after a brief 402 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: sponsor break to hear a little bit more about Richard Third. 403 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: In pop culture, thanks in no small part to Shakespeare, 404 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: there have been plenty of depictions of Richard Third stage 405 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: and on screen. One could even argue that in Disney's 406 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: Lion King, Scar the scheming slightly disfigured Machiavellian uncle owes 407 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 1: as much to Richard the Third or more as he 408 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: does to Claudius in Hamlet. Hamlet is, of course the 409 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: play whose plot explicitly inspired Lion King. But I think 410 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: my favorite portrayal of a version of Richard IID isn't 411 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: evil at all, or at least, let's say, not as 412 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: evil as he could be. The Game of Thrones series 413 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: is explicitly inspired by the Wars of the Roses, and 414 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: some of the parallels are incredibly obvious. The Starks are 415 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: analogs for the Yorks, the Lanisters, the Lancasters, but not 416 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: every character and dynamic has a one to one equivalent. 417 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: Tyrian Lanister, who's portrayed by Peter Dinklage in the HBO series, 418 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: is obviously a Lanister, which should correspond to Lancaster. Richard 419 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: the Third was a York. But Tyrian is also scheming 420 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: and self serving, the self aware chess player who sees 421 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: moves before others make them. He's also a little person 422 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: who frequently remarks, not unlike Shakespeare's Richard with a hunchback, 423 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: that his physical difference is what holds him back from 424 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: the glory afforded to his brother. And of course, Tyrian 425 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: is the uncle to a boy king rumored to be illegitimate. 426 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: Whether you watched or read Game of Thrones and saw 427 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: Tyrian as a villain or a hero or somewhere in between. Depends, 428 00:33:47,600 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: I think on your point of view. Noble Blood is 429 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Grimm and Mild from 430 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is created and hosted by me 431 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: Dana Schwortz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 432 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The 433 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and rima 434 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers 435 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts 436 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 437 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.