1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, fun how 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm Polly Fry, I'm Tracy B. Wilson, and today we're 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: going to talk about a subject that was directly inspired 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: by a listener mail. And we're gonna talk in some 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: detail about that listener mail at the end, but just 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: know that it did and we'll credit the person when 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: we get to the end, because it's pretty spectacular. We're 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: gonna talk about a really important lady mathematician and her 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: the pronunciation of her name is a matter of some 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: debate here at the office and online. True. Uh so, 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: it's Emily Nurture. You will sometimes also hear it pronounce 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: more like neuture. Well, and then when I looked it 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: up at four though that the one German speaker pronounced 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: it more like yeah, and I was like, we can't 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: say it that way. That's not gonna work. So I 17 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: think we decided we're going to hover right around nurture 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: that with all our pas full of respects to Emmy, 19 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: and I hope we do not offend her ghosts should 20 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: it exist or German speakers or German speakers or people 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: who love math and love her as a figure, so 22 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: we're just going to jump right into talking about her. 23 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: Emmy was born Emily Emmy Nurture on March eighty two 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: in Erlangen, Germany, and her father, Max Nurture, was a mathematician. 25 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: Her mother, Ida Amalia Kaufman, was from a very well 26 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: to do family, and after Emmy was born, Max and 27 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: Ida had three sons, although two of them died when 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: they were very young, only Emmy's brother, Fritz, survived to adulthood. 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: And as a young child, by most accounts, Emmy did 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: not really stand out as especially gifted. She was a 31 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: bright child, but nobody was like, this is the future 32 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: of mathematics. She attended the State Girls School in Erlangen 33 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 1: from eighteen ninety seven, studying the basics of school curriculum, 34 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: and she also took piano lessons, and she learned to 35 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: speak French and English, and as she grew into her 36 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: teen years she loved dancing and she was known as 37 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: a very friendly, clever girl. When she was eighteen, she 38 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: was certified to teach both French and English, and the 39 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: series of exams that she had to go through to 40 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: get this certification was pretty strenuous that it took four 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: days for her to do this. But instead of settling 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: into a career teaching in girls schools, she decided that 43 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: she would go to university and study mathematics. And this 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: was a pretty big jump to suddenly make. And we 45 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: don't know why Emmy had this sudden shift in interests. 46 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: Her life up to this point had seemed to follow 47 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: a pretty standard course for a young woman in that 48 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: period of time in Germany from an intellectual, middle class family. 49 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: You know, she would potentially get married, but if not, 50 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: she had this backup job as a teacher. And none 51 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: of her personal writing from this time has survived to 52 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: offer us any clues why she suddenly decided that what 53 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: she really wanted was to pursue a mathematics career. Yeah, 54 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: we do know that it wasn't a completely foreign subject 55 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: to her. Her brother Fritz was studying mathematics at the time, 56 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: and her father also entertained other mathematicians in their home 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: from time to time, so she had been around the 58 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: subject of math her whole life. So while it does 59 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: seem like quite a shift to go from teaching French 60 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: and English to studying math, it wasn't something that was 61 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: completely new to her and just the same though this 62 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: desire to take university courses was incredibly ambitious, So the 63 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: schooling that girls received at this time in Germany was 64 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: vastly different from the way that the boys were educated. 65 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: The goal for a girls school was to turn out 66 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: proper young ladies or trade workers, depending on the young 67 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: woman's family background, and they just simply did not receive 68 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: the kind of educational groundwork that would make a transition 69 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: to university studies a natural step, regardless of exactly how 70 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: it was that she arrived at this decision, and we 71 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: went to the University of our Langen to continue her education. 72 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: But because she was a woman and it was nine hundred, 73 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: she couldn't just enroll in classes. She had to get 74 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: special permission from every instat after of every class, and 75 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: then she couldn't actually enroll as a regular student. She 76 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: could only audit the class. She had to once again 77 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: get special permission to actually take the exams from the instructors. Yes, 78 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: so she uh really had to jump through every imaginable 79 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: hoop just to get this math education that she had 80 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: decided she wanted. Um in July nineteen o three and 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: he took the enrollment exam for the university at the 82 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: Royal Gymnasium in Nuremberg, and she passed, basically proving at 83 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: that point that she was even with male classmates despite 84 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: having missed their educational background. After the exam, in the 85 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: summer and he started auditing advanced mathematics courses at the 86 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: University of Guttingen, and that started in the winter of 87 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: nineteen o three oh four. During these winter courses she 88 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: learned from teachers who would make incredible contributions in the 89 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: world of mathematics. Herman Minkowski, for example, developed the geometry 90 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: of numbers. He contributed to number theory, and he worked 91 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: on relativity, influence saying his famous student Albert Einstein and 92 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: David Hilbert, another of her instructors, set the foundations for 93 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: functional analysis. Felix Klein influenced the development of mathematics is 94 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: it related to representing the properties of space and spatial 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: relations through geometry. So she was learning from serious heavy hitters. 96 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: But in nineteen o four she went back to the 97 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: University of Erlangen because the school had started actually accepting 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: women as for real legitimate students. On October nineteen o four. 99 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: She was officially enrolled as student number four eighties six, 100 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: and she was the only woman student in a field 101 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: of forty seven. Emmy's mentor during this time was Paul Gordon, 102 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: who was a friend of her father's as well as 103 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: an influential mathematician in his own right, and Emmy had 104 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: known him since she was just a child. He was 105 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: very close with her family, and he has often described 106 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: as sort of a second father figure to her. He was, however, 107 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: in terms of personality, a stark contrast to her father. 108 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: Max Air Nurture was gentle and warm. He was passionate 109 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: about his work, but he is always described as sort 110 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: of having this overlying sense of calm about him. Gordon, 111 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: who was nicknamed the King of invariant theory, was unlike Max, 112 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: a more dramatic figure. He was impulsive. He was expressive 113 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 1: in very unbridled ways. He was given to wild gesticulation 114 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: while he was talking, which I can identify with. Emmy 115 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: was the only doctorate student that that he ever mentored, 116 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: and she was really devoted to him. She kept a 117 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: photo of him on her wall for the rest of 118 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: her life. And it's interesting when people describe Emmy's behavior 119 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: She is sometimes described as having traits that are in 120 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: some ways more similar to Paul Gordon than her father, 121 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: like she too was given to serious gesticulation and kind 122 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: of would make messages and be very dramatic and very 123 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: excited and so passionate that she would kind of lose herself. 124 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: But she received her PhD in mathematics from Erlangen after 125 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: several years as Gordon's protege, and her thesis was a 126 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: dissertation on algebraic invariance, which she successfully defended on December 127 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: thirteenth of nineteen o seven. She was given her degree 128 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: sumakun lauda on July two of the following year. This 129 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: timing is really significant because co ed classes were not 130 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: a thing in Germany until nineteen o eight, the year 131 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: after she successfully defended her thesis. Any woman who had 132 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: gone through the education system prior to that had, like Emmy, 133 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: had to get special permission and was not granted equal 134 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: students status. Yeah, just for clarity, we mentioned that she 135 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: returned to Erlangen because they were doing it, but in 136 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: terms of Germany wide, women were still not considered equal 137 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: until that year after she defended her thesis, and in 138 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: nineteen o eight, Emmy attended the International Mathematical Congress in Rome, Italy, 139 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: and she attended that along with her father. She was 140 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: at this point still a young woman and relatively unknown, 141 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: despite sort of making this name for herself as an 142 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: unusual figure being a woman in a very male dominated field, 143 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: so it seems that during this particular conference she really 144 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: kept a fairly low profile. After Ms Nurture received her PhD, 145 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: she continued her research work at their Lingen, although she 146 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: wasn't paid for any of this work. She assisted her 147 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: father in his research and then she was invited in 148 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: nineteen o eight to join the Churcholo Mathematico in Italy 149 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: and then in nineteen o nine the German Mathematical Union. 150 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: Emmy's first sort of professional lecture was in nineteen o 151 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: nine at the Salzburg meeting of the German Mathematical Union. 152 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: She lectured at the Vienna chapter of the group several 153 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: years later in nineteen thirteen, and not long after that 154 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: she also started guest lecturing for her father as a substitute. 155 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: And during this same period, although as we said, we 156 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: don't have writings from her, so we don't really know 157 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: how this impacted her, but surely it did. Emmy's mentor, 158 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: Paul Gordan, died in nineteen twelve, so just as her 159 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: career was taking off. So next up, we're going to 160 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: talk about a significan get move in Emmy's life. But 161 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: before that, let's have a word from one of our 162 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: awesome sponsors who keep the lights on here in our studio. 163 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: That sounds grand. So after eight years of post PhD 164 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: work at Erlangen, her former teachers David Hilbert and Felix 165 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,599 Speaker 1: Klein asked her to come back to gutting In in 166 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: nineteen fift and this was right after Albert Einstein had 167 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: published his Theory of General Relativity and Klein and Hilbert 168 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: wanted Nurture to work with them on unraveling the mathematics 169 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: that were involved in Einstein's work. And Nurture had published 170 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: several papers of her own by this time, and she 171 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: had really exhibited some insightful approaches to mathematical concepts, so 172 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: she was the perfect candidate to assist in Hilbert and 173 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: Kline's work. She went to Gutchingen, but this move turned 174 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: out to be extremely controversial. Many faculty members objected to 175 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: the idea of a woman on the teaching staff. If 176 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: Emmy Norture couldn't be granted faculty status, Hilbert and Klein 177 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: wanted her to at least have what's called a priv discent, 178 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: which is a position similar to a post doc. It 179 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: would have given Emmy at least an officially recognized post 180 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: within the Good and educational system, would also grant her 181 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: sufficient title and permission to teach for nurtures thesis to 182 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: be accepted, and for her to be granted this provent, 183 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: the entire philosophy faculty had to vote on it. And 184 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: this umbrella of philosophy, keep in mind, included not only philosophy, 185 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: but also history, natural sciences, and mathematics. And it turned 186 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: out that the math people there were pretty cool with Emmy, 187 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: but the non mathematics people in the mix, we're really 188 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: vehemently arguing against having a woman teach students. The arguments 189 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: against Nurtare were that giving her a provactance and position 190 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: would mean that she was on track to be faculty. 191 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: And what would the returning soldiers think when they came 192 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: back to war to find that they're supposed to take 193 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: classes from a woman. Yeah, they really framed it like 194 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: what a slap of the face that would be these 195 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: young men who had gone to defend the ideals of 196 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: Germany and they then come back and find a lady teacher. 197 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and keep in mind, this wasn't even soldiers 198 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: saying this. This was kind of the weird trumped up 199 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: argument that the non mathematics faculty was trying to put 200 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: together to keep Emmy Nurture off of their cool kids 201 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: club and her mentor and now colleague. Hilbert's response was, gentlemen, 202 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: I do not see that the sex of the candidate 203 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: is an argument against her admission as a privat sent. 204 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: After all, the Senate is not a bathhouse, and he 205 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: meant like the educational Senate, not their uh government Senate. 206 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: And his argument, though, didn't sway the detractors, and Emmy 207 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: was not granted this title. Hilbert in Kline had to 208 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: convince Nurture to stay for obvious reasons, but she couldn't 209 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: lecture under her own name, so they had to come 210 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: up with a sneaky kind of work around. The lectures 211 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: were listed under Hilbert's name, but nurts Or was the 212 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: one who actually delivered them. Yeah, she worked under his 213 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: name for quite some time. Um, in eighteen. However, she 214 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: has been doing this sort of sneaky workaround plan for 215 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: several years. At this point, she had developed at through 216 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: her work with Hilbert Kleine nurtures theorem, which deals with 217 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: the relation between what are known as the symmetries of 218 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: a physical system and its conservation laws. So among the 219 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: revelations of this theorem is the linkage between time and energy, 220 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: directly relating to the idea of conservation of energy, so 221 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: that in case you do not remember, is that energy 222 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: can neither be created nor destroyed, but merely changes form. 223 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: And this is incredibly significant stuff. I mean, this is 224 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: really a huge part of physics as we know it, right, 225 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: It's an incredibly important concept of theoretical physics, and her 226 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: peers at the time recognized its significance so much so 227 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: that the following year, Emmy Notre was finally officially recognized 228 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: as an academic lecture with the private zodes and title 229 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: that we've been talking about for so long she had 230 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: had to lecture without. She no longer had to lecture 231 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: under a male mentor's name, And this was obviously incredibly significant, 232 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: But uh, it's not maybe the huge win that we 233 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: would all be hoping for. Because just to be clear, 234 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: at this point, uh Emmynure was in her thirties, she 235 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: had published numerous influential and important papers, and she was 236 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: working with the best mathematicians at the time as a 237 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: respected peer of theirs on the mathematics of relativity. And 238 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: despite all of that, she had up to this official, 239 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: um you know, kind of track to be in a 240 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: faculty position. She had zero stability or safety in her career. 241 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: But even though she now had a title that made 242 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: it okay for her to lecture as herself, her position 243 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: did not actually come with any pay. She would not 244 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: get any pay as a lecture until nine four years 245 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: after she was made of vits In. Yeah, we don't 246 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: know exactly where the money was coming that supported her. 247 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: H This is one of those kind of wiggly fuzzy points. 248 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: Presumably she was getting some from like a family fund 249 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: and possibly sort of private grants from other mathematicians, but 250 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: we don't really knew. In nineteen twenty she collaborated with 251 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: colleague Werner Schmidler to write concerning moduli and non commutative fields, 252 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: particularly in differential and difference terms, and this publication really 253 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: established like without question, Nurture as a mathematician at the 254 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: very top of her field. While the start of World 255 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: War One kept her from traveling to speak at gatherings 256 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: of mathematicians, starting in nineteen twenties, she was often on 257 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: the road lecturing throughout Germany, and from nineteen twenty six 258 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: nurtures work focused on what's called the general theory of ideals, 259 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: no more commonly in modern times as commutative algebra. Her 260 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: work during this time united a lot of different mathematical 261 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: concept ups, but this was in terms of her personal 262 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: life a period of ups and downs for Emmy. In 263 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: ninety one, for example, her father died, so at this 264 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: point she was left without both of her father figure 265 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: mentors in mathematics, and in the middle of all that work, 266 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: as we said, she was given a lecture ship, specifically 267 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: in algebra in nineteen twenty three. Just two years later, 268 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: Andy's first student to complete a doctorate under her mentorship 269 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: received her PhD. Amy had mentored another woman, Greta Herman, 270 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: through her thesis process, and Herman finished her doctorate in 271 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: February nineteen twenty five. Around nineteen twenty four, while she 272 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: was working with Greta herman and and lecturing and doing 273 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: her research. Nurture was at the center of this sort 274 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: of interesting walking and talking phenomenon on campus. Students and 275 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: scholars alike would take long walks with Emmy around the 276 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: school of grounds, talking about what else mathematics and math theory, 277 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: and this informal group, which came to be known as 278 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: Nurtures Boys, included Russian scholar Pavel Alexandrov, who was a 279 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: visiting professor from the University of Moscowna and Alexandrov became friends, 280 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: and she was eventually invited to Moscow as a guest 281 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: lecturer in the nine academic year. This was not the 282 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: only international recognitions she was receiving during this time, though. 283 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: She also delivered a paper at the International Mathematical Congress 284 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: in Bologna, Italy that was in nine and then a 285 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: few years later, in nineteen thirty two, she addressed the 286 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: same group in Zurich. So in n seven, nursers focus 287 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: shifted almost exclusively to noncommutative algebras, and these are algebras 288 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: where the order in which the numbers are multiplied affects 289 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: the outcome and ur there's work in this area yielded 290 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: a theory that enabled the conceptual unification of all of them, 291 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: and during her work in this phase of her career, 292 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: she collaborated with Helmet Hass and Richard Brauer and published 293 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: papers hyper Complex Number Systems in their Representation in ninety 294 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: twenty nine and non Commutative Algebra in nineteen thirty three. 295 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: From nineteen thirty to nineteen thirty three she also worked 296 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: as an editor on the German Mathematical Annual. Throughout all 297 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: of her research, writing and editing, she was also still 298 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: teaching regularly, but even so she was still employed at 299 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: a level far below what her colleagues thought she deserves. Yeah, 300 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: even as male mathematicians were rising up through the ranks 301 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: in the Gutting gutting in educational system at a rate 302 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: that really easily outpaced Emmy, they were so hugely influenced 303 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: by her work that many of them tried to point 304 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: out how wrong this was and tried to petition for 305 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: an improved title on her behalf. It generally came to 306 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: not with the greater university system, but in terms of 307 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: the mathematics world, she was regarded not just as a peer, 308 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: but as a leader. At this point, nineteen thirty three 309 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: would prove to be a pivotal year for Nurture, and 310 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about it after we paused chat 311 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: about one of our awesome sponsors who keep our show going. 312 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty three, Germany changed, obviously pretty significantly when 313 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party came into power. Emmy Nurture, who was Jewish, 314 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: lost her job, as did many of her colleagues. The 315 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: Nazi Party had actually passed a number of laws that 316 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: were intended to keep Jews out of civil service jobs, 317 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: and that included academics. For a while, Emmy gave informal 318 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: lectures at her home, and she certainly had students who 319 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: were eager to continue learning from her. She was apparently 320 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: not even bothered when a student or two showed up 321 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: in their Nazi uniforms. She just wanted to talk about math. Meanwhile, 322 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: her friend Pablo Alexandrov was working to get the University 323 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: of Moscow to appoint her to a position, and his 324 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: efforts were really passionate, but they were getting slow response, 325 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: and finally Emmy just had to make a decision about 326 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: her future as tensions mounted in Germany. She left Germany 327 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: in October ninety three to move to the United States. 328 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 1: She'd been offered a one year guest professor spot at 329 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: brent Mark Hall Edge. Unbeknownst to Nurture, when she accepted 330 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: the offer, the school was also setting up a graduate 331 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: fellowship in her name for the academic year she would 332 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: be teaching there. She also lectured and worked on her 333 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: math research in Princeton, New Jersey, at the Institute for 334 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: Advanced Study, and while interest in her lectures was initially 335 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: slow to catch on, eventually Emmy did get a following 336 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: of students, and she sort of found this mirror group 337 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: to the Nurture Boys of gutting In, but this group 338 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: was called the Nurture Girls, and they would go on 339 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: hikes on Saturdays all the while, just as she had 340 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: in Germany, discussing mathematical concepts. Her one year invitation to 341 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: teach at ren Mar was extended the following academic year 342 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: of nine thirty five, but before it started, she went 343 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: back to Germany to visit her brother, Fritz and his 344 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: family before they moved to Siberia for a teaching position there. 345 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: Like Emmy, Fritz lost his job at the Institute of 346 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: Technology under the Nazi government Emmy also visited her old 347 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: campus and her friends at gutting In, but she soon 348 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: had a back to Pennsylvania for another year at Bryn 349 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: mar and during her second year there she mentored her 350 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: first American PhD candidate, a young woman named Ruth Halfer. 351 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: The life of Emmy Notare ends rather abruptly. In the 352 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: spring of nineteen thirty five, she went into the hospital 353 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: to have an ovarian sister moved, and while she seemed 354 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: to be recovering well initially, she died quite suddenly on 355 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: April fourteenth, four days after her surgery. Just a few 356 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: weeks later, on May third of nineteen thirty five, the 357 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: New York Times ran a letter that was written by 358 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: Albert Einstein about Emmy Nutter, and he wrote, within the 359 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: past few days, a distinguished mathematician, professor I mean Notre, 360 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: formerly connected with the University of Guttingen and for the 361 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: past two years at Renmark College, died in her fifty 362 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: third year, and the judgment of the most competent living mathematicians, Fraeulein, 363 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: Notre was the most significant creative mathematical genius thus far 364 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: produced since the higher education of women began in the 365 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: realm of algebra in which the most gifted mathematicians have 366 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: been busy for centuries. She discovered methods which have proved 367 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: of enormous importance in the development of the present day 368 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: younger generation of mathematicians. And now, while we have reached 369 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: the point in emmy story where she has departed this 370 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: earthly plane, there's a little bit more to talk about 371 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: in terms of her politics. And the reason that we're 372 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: putting that this at the end is because the primary 373 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: information we have about it isn't from things that came 374 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: up in her actual lifetime or again her writings, which 375 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: we don't have. It's stuff that came up in eulogies 376 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: and memorials from colleagues after her death, specifically two of them. 377 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: In nineteen nineteen, Nature joined the independent Social Democrats group 378 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: and getting in and to some the group was considered 379 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: an extremely radical Bolshevik group. It was a splinter group 380 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: that broke away from the Social Democratic Party in nineteen 381 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: fourteen as a centrist group between the Social Democratic Party 382 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: and the Communist Party of Germany. But two of her 383 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: close friends and fellow mathematicians interpret her politics very differently. 384 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: When they spoke about her life first Herman Wile while 385 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: worked in analysis, number theory, foundational mathematics and quantum mechanics, 386 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: among other areas, and he met uh Nurture in gutting 387 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: In in nineteen thirteen, and they remained quite close throughout 388 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: the rest of Emmy's life. And when while spoke of 389 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: Emmy's political stance, it was very much in the vein 390 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: that she was a pacifist and she definitely was, we 391 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: know that with great hopes for Germany's future, and that 392 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: really she saw the independent Social Democrats as the next 393 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: stage of the Social Democrats, not as a radical shift, 394 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: but as a gradual evolution. And he also wrote of 395 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: Emmy that quote, without being actually in party life, she 396 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: participated intensely in the discussion of the social and political 397 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: problems of the day. On the other hand, Pavel Alexandro 398 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: characterized Emmy as very pro Soviet. He said that quote, 399 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: she always had a lively interest in politics and hated 400 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: war and chauvinism in all its forms, and with her 401 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: whole being, her sympathies were always unwaveringly with the Soviet Union. 402 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: So it seems based on the fact that Alexandrov was 403 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: working to get Emmy a position in Moscow in ninety three, 404 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: that she was comfortable with the idea of living in 405 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, and the Bolshevik Revolution took place while 406 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: she was working in academia, so it's really unlikely that 407 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: she was blind or ignorant to the political events that 408 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: were playing out around her. But since both of these 409 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: men likely saw Emmy's political stance through their own lenses 410 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: and in the way they wished to see her, and 411 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: since we do not have any of her own writing 412 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: on the subject to reference, we really don't know where 413 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: she truly stood. What's really indisputable is that I mean 414 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: notre was a major figure in mathematics, both in her 415 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: time and today, as many others have built upon her work, 416 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: and she seemed simply unflappable in the face of the 417 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: difficulties she faced as she made a name for herself 418 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: in a field that had very few women in it. 419 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: And so I wanted to end with a quote from 420 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: her friend Pavel Alexandrov, because it describes Emmy in such 421 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: a way that I think anybody would want to know her. 422 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: It says, quote her great sense of humor, which made 423 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: social gatherings, in personal contacts with her so pleasant enabled 424 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: her to counter the injustices and absurdities that beset her 425 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: academic career easily and without anger. In such circumstances, instead 426 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: of being offended, she would simply laugh. But she was 427 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: very offended indeed, and protested sharply when even the smallest 428 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: injustice was directed at one of her students. I love 429 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: that quote. Um, there's really no substantiation in any way, 430 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: but there are. It will come up as theory sometimes 431 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: that she was connected romantically to either While or Alexandrov, 432 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: although we don't know, and none of them, none of 433 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: their letters ever hinted any of that, so we just 434 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: have no idea. But we do know that she was 435 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: very close with both of those men. So I love 436 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: that that sort of lovely description of her. Yeah. Um, 437 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: And now we'll get to the listener mail and inspired 438 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: this whole thing. And this is from our listener, Mark, 439 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: who is amazing, and he writes, Hi, Holly and Tracy, 440 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: I enjoyed listening to your podcast, and I thought you 441 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: might like a laser engraving of one of my favorite mathematicians, 442 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: Emmy Nurture. I did the engraving on one millimeter aircraft 443 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: plywood hoping that would make it a little more unique. 444 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: I listened to your podcast when I'm on the road 445 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: or in the lab a guitar lab. Really keep up 446 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: your great work. And Mark sent is this absolutely beautiful 447 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: engraving of Emmy and I just was so struck by 448 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: it that we had to do an episode. Yeah, and 449 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: we're going to post a picture of it. It's great. 450 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: It's uh. So we've talked about how I don't normally 451 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: work in the same office as Holly anymore, and so 452 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: Holly will send me pictures of the things that come 453 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 1: into the office and are amazing. And that was one 454 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: where I kept zooming in on my phone, azing tex Gorge, like, WHOA, 455 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: what's happening. It's really it's very beautiful. I love it. Mark, 456 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: thank you so much. That was so thoughtful and cool, 457 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: and I appreciate that you took time to make us 458 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: a really fabulous gift. We're very, very lucky. 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If you would like 479 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: to visit us, you could do so at mist in 480 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: history dot com, where we have all of our episodes 481 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: archive from forever. We have show notes from any episodes 482 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: trade see and I have worked on so over the 483 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: last two and a half years or so. We have 484 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: the occasional other goody and that is at missed in 485 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: history dot com and how sta Works dot com for 486 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: more on this thousands of other topics. Is It, How 487 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com, m