1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: If we were at a party and everybody had two beers, 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: and then I asked, what do you do for a living? Like, 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: what do you actually say? In social setting? It depends 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: how quickly I need to leave. If I need to 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: leave soon, I'll usually say I teach sociology, which isn't 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: really true, but I know it's really boring sounding, so 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: then everyone's like, okay, bye. However, if it looks like 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: I've got some time and I know the person will 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: want to talk to me, I'll say I'm Director of 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: the Center for Death and Society and I do research 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: on death, dying, and the dead body, and interdisciplinary studies 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: around everything to do with death and dying. That is 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Dr John Troyer, who lectures at the University of Bath 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: in England and is the m v P of Every party. 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: I am ess a host of Deeply Human and Deeply 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: Human is the podcast you're listening to, And a podcast 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: is like a balsamic reduction of pure knowledge drizzled in 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: through your ears to season your brain. Today's episode is 19 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: about dying and why you shouldn't put off talking about 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: it until you're dead. So part your hair down the 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: middle and your best Wednesday Adams and stretch out for 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: rigorous conversation about death, activism, the guillotine, and the ferocity 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: of human love. Love of mine, someday will die, but 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: I'll be close behind. I'll follow you into the dark. 25 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 1: You're blinding line. Okay, So back to the party scene. 26 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: How does John introduce himself when he's off the clock 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: in that scenario where you give him a long, interesting answer? 28 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: Do you know what they're going to say next? Yeah? 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: Usually this is actually almost always the way it happens. 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: They'll say, oh God, wow, Okay, I have to ask 31 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: you this question, and then it just goes into about 32 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: thirty minutes to an hour or a couple of hours 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: of just relentless questioning about everything and anyone's ever wanted 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: to know about death and dying, which is normal. I 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: expect that because people are genuinely interested in it, like 36 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: it is a constant and if you can say anything 37 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: about humans as a species, and this might strike some 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: listeners is a bit grim, but I think it's completely accurate. 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: Is that if there's anything we're good at, it's dying, 40 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: that eventually it's going to happen. I met John a 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: bunch of years ago before he'd moved to England and 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: before he was a death rock star. We met in 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: our twenties, both of us competing in the slam poetry 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: scene in Minneapolis. He seemed funny and weird and smart, 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: an assessment that still holds. And my delivery of a 46 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: rhyming poem about metaphysics at one of our competitions must 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: have passed mustard because he invited me to sit in 48 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: on the defense of a PhD dissertation, and that seemed 49 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: like a terribly adult way to spend an afternoon. So 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: I went, and I was mesmerized listening to John talk 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: about the science and culture of death. How the first 52 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: embomed bodies were carted around the US like sideshow attractions, 53 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: how people used to pose for pictures with their recently 54 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: deceased relatives, and unless you look really closely at the photos, 55 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: it's tough to tell who's warm and who's dead. Death, 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: as it turns out, runs in John's family. So my 57 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: dad was a funeral director for many years, owned a 58 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: couple of funeral homes, worked at other couple of funeral homes, 59 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: and you know, I just grew up watching him organized, 60 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: run and do funerals. But He also taught cosmetology, so 61 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: he taught the makeup classes. Apparently he was a very 62 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: good at matching skin tone. His students would tell me, 63 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: it's like Dan really good at the makeup, and I 64 00:03:53,920 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: was like, well, it's good to know. For the record, 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: John didn't want to follow in his dad's footsteps, and yes, dude, 66 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: he has seen the HBO series six ft Under. John's 67 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: interest was more intellectual. He wanted to investigate how technology 68 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: affects the way that society treats death and dead bodies. 69 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: For example, these days, we're living further apart from our families, 70 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: which means that we're dying further apart. Two and so 71 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: embalming services are in steady demand because by injecting a 72 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: body with preservatives, we get a shelf stable corpse that 73 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: allows the family time to gather. Because of this embalming technology, 74 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: the dead body in your imagination might look sort of 75 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: like a living person who's asleep, But before the Civil War, 76 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: dead bodies looked really different than living bodies. They start 77 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: to decompose, they turned black. Okay, quick extra credit fact. 78 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln played a really big part in popularizing embombing 79 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: after his assassination. His body was taken across the country 80 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: in a special train car for public viewing, and it 81 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: was embombed more than once along the way. New technologies 82 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: can shape the way that we handle are dead, and 83 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: new political ideas can change the way that we die. 84 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: For example, California becomes a first state to pass in 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: what's called the Natural Death Act, and the Natural Death 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: Act states you have a right to refuse treatment and 87 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: to die naturally. And we think about that today is 88 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: almost being given, But it wasn't. It wasn't. There had 89 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: to be a law that was created and then passed 90 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: along you could tell people both medically and ethically, but 91 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: also philosophically and politically. And again I think the political 92 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: side of this is very important. You have a right 93 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: to die by refusing treatment if you no longer want it. 94 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: And why is that political? Well, because it was a 95 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: statement of autonomy. I will die as I choose. And 96 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: there's a longer history here of a break than from 97 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: religious tradition because of course, for many centuries you did 98 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: not die the way you chose. You died the way 99 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: God chose. Is well, if you say I die the 100 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: way I choose, that means then that the state or 101 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: whatever governing powers in place, no one will tell me 102 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: how I can die. In the nineteen seventies, universities in 103 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: the US and the UK taught sociology of death, courses 104 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: and activists fought to change our approach to death with 105 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: conversations about assisted suicide, end of life, rights and dignity 106 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: and death, and the living Will was invented, a document 107 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: that expresses a person's wishes for healthcare when they're no 108 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: longer able to make those decisions. I thought that all 109 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: these shifts in thinking and practice were designed to provide 110 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: people with a good death. John not so much. There's 111 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: been lots of conversations around this idea of a good death. 112 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: I've never been big on that terminology because then it 113 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: suggests there's a bad death. And I'm not saying you 114 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: can't create qualitative judgments around these things, because I think 115 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: we can talk about preferred ways of dying. But I 116 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: think ultimately what we're talking about in terms of death is, 117 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, death is a phenomena you're, regardless of goodness 118 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: or badness, is going to happen. But I'm see I'm confused. 119 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways it feels like, oh, I 120 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: don't know, like why shy from normative terms, because if 121 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: I were to compare two ways of shark attack versus 122 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: in the arms of my beloved, like one of those 123 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: deaths is clearly sort of lousy and one is like 124 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: why better? Right now, I understand that the concern you 125 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: can come up with, and this is something that it's 126 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: been discussed that because once you start to create expectations 127 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: around dying, people can start to feel like they're doing 128 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: it wrong. And that's always been one of my big 129 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: concerns with a lot of the discussions around death and 130 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: dying in all different kinds of facets society, which has 131 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: been going on out for like the last twenty years. 132 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: It's never not been a hot topic as it were. 133 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: But I think that what happened is families, and usually 134 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: families more than the dying, but sometimes the dying they 135 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: can feel like they're doing it wrong. That fear that 136 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm somehow messing up at this basic biological function is 137 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: one you might have also heard. In relation to childbirth, 138 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: Moms can face a lot of pressures about how and 139 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: where to deliver at home, at the hospital, in a 140 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: birthing center, with or without pain meds in a tub 141 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: of water, preferably on a weekday. A lot of parents 142 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: hire birth doulas to help with their pregnancy and delivery. 143 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: Doulas aren't part of the medical team, but there are 144 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: a source of support and encouragement and they've got a 145 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: lot of experience helping tykes into the world. There are 146 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: also death doulas who help people to leave the world. 147 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: I die with people. I say die with them because 148 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: I feel like with every person I die with, I'm 149 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: a little closer to understanding what death is. And that's 150 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: just the last breath. There's nothing more magical about it. 151 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: Denise Love has worked as a death duela for twenty 152 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: eight years. She's also helped set up hospices and worked 153 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: as a registered nurse, and part of her motivation in 154 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: life is to help people talk about death, to be 155 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: less afraid of the whole conversation. I think the fear 156 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: is just too great. I could talk about it, you 157 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: might drop dead. It's just terrified to use the word. 158 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: Even most people don't ever use the word. In their eyes. 159 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: We pass away or somebody's ill, we avoid the language 160 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: of death. Denise has spent a lot of time working 161 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,479 Speaker 1: in the developing world with people in Nepal, Myanmar, Cambodia, 162 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: and Thailand, which is where she was when I spoke 163 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: with her. The death's Denise has witnessed and the developing 164 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: world look really different than those she's been a part 165 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: of in Western societies. Whatever this thing we're telling everybody 166 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: is to fight, that's a lot of nonsense. There's nothing 167 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: to fight. Surrendering to death means a comfortable death. That's 168 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,599 Speaker 1: my theory behind it. To die people often have to 169 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: fight with their loved ones to die, absolutely, So come on, dad, 170 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: you can do it. Fight it. You're going to be 171 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: seventy six tomorrow, or you know. A young pregnant woman 172 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: kept saying to her husband, could you just hold on 173 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: and do I have the baby? And he looked at 174 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: and he said, I can't. How do I tell her 175 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: I'm done? I don't want to do this anymore? So 176 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: I said, let's bring her in and tell her. And 177 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: he just had terror in his eyes. And we had 178 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: the most amazing hour of if you love me, you'll live, 179 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: and if you love me, you'll let me die. And 180 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: we had that beautiful, difficult conversation which was sort of 181 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: a bit heated at times, but really negotiations, so a 182 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: big death. Doller's job is getting a family talking in 183 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: an honest and open way. But again there's a lot 184 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: of disagreement, and one daughter wants this, and one daughter saying, 185 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: come on, you can help you live. Let's give him 186 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: vitamins and let's duce another twenty three thousand karat to 187 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: be giving kale, and it's making drink his own urine. 188 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I've been through everything, and then I just say, 189 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: let's all go inside and talk to them, and I say, 190 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: do you want to live? What do you want to die? 191 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody answer that question because it seems selfish, 192 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: and I've already told me they want to die usually, 193 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: So you know, I feel really comfortable bringing the family 194 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: and just saying can we let him go if you 195 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: love him? Just saying about I've always thought a lot 196 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: about death, even as a little kid, and you hope 197 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: that when the time comes, you can spare the people 198 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: you love pain or discomfort. But it hadn't occurred to 199 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: me that I might help my loved ones by releasing 200 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: them from any obligation they might feel to stick around 201 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: when someone's really sick and maybe dying. I already know 202 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: to ask, does it hurt? Okay, then let's talk to 203 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: the morphine nurse. Now. I also know to ask, hey, 204 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: do you just want to leave now? Because I don't 205 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: want to keep you. This is your show, so don't 206 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: stay late for me. That's a kindness, that question, and 207 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: I'm grateful to Denis for handing it to me. Our 208 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: next guest, Dr Sam Parnia deals in total totally different 209 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: sorts of questions. Do you think that there might be 210 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: a future where a good number of us died? Many times? 211 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: I think what you're going to see is when resuscitation advances, 212 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: then there'll be many people who can say, oh, I had, 213 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: like you know, full cardiac rest in my life and 214 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: nothing mattered. I was dead for twelve hours, sixteen hours 215 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: they brought me back. If our body is still in 216 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: good shape, we will be able to be revived and 217 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: allowed to live another ten or twenty or thirty years. 218 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: Dr Sam Parnia is the director of the Critical Care 219 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: and Resuscitation Research Program at New York University. He specializes 220 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: in bringing people back to life, and he thinks that 221 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: his technology advances will have a lot more lazaruses and 222 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: lazarettes amongst us, I asked him to start with a 223 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: working definition of death in practice, How would a physician 224 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: know if a patient is dead like dead dead dead. 225 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think most people listening will think 226 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: that they understand death and it's pretty simple. You're either 227 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: dead or you're alive. And the reality is that was 228 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: true because for thousands of years, whenever a person's heart stopped, 229 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: they would essentially reach a point where they were irreversibly dead. So, 230 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: to answer you a question, the way the physicians declass 231 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: somebody dead is that their heart stops. When the person's 232 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: heart stops, they also stop breathing, and because there's no 233 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: blood flowing around the body, there's no energy, and the 234 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: brain also shuts down almost immediately. So the three criteria 235 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: that they look for are no heartbeat, no breathing, and 236 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: absence of brain response. But as our tools and understanding 237 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: have evolved, the heart, breath, and brain don't always stop 238 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: on the same time. Ventilators can breathe for a body 239 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: that's unable to respire on its own, for example, So 240 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: what if machines performed the duties of the heart and 241 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: lungs but the brain has stopped working. Is that person dead. 242 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: To answer that question and others like it, a commission 243 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: appointed by US President Jimmy Carter published a report called 244 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: Defining Death. It said a person was dead if one 245 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: of two criteria were met, either irreversible cessation of circulatory 246 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: and respiratory functions, so like your heart stopped and you're 247 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: not breathing, or irreversible cessation of all functions of the 248 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: entire brain, including the brain stem. But not all the 249 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: states adopted this definition in exactly the same way. New Jersey, 250 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: for example, provides an exemption for patients whose religious views 251 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: might be compromised by declaring brain death, so their families 252 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: can ask that doctors use only the cardio pulmonary definition, 253 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: the heart and long one, which means that a person 254 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: would be considered dead in one state might not be 255 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: dead in another. As definitions get more clinical, even our 256 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: fundamental intuitions about death can start to give way. We 257 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: socially have defined death as this irreversible moment where a 258 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: person becomes lifeless, motionless, and they can never come back 259 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: to life again. But it's important to understand that's just 260 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: simple social and philosophical notions, and that as medicine and 261 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: science have evolved have understood that actually death this far 262 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: more complicated than we ever thought it could be. To 263 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: further complicate the question, not all of the cells in 264 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: your body die at the same time, So how long 265 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: does it take for the human brain to go offline? 266 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: If you were to be decapitated, would consciousness stop instantaneously? 267 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: That question was not at all hypothetical when the guillotine 268 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: was in vogue. The device was invented specifically to serve 269 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: as a humane method of execution, which would hardly be 270 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: true if a head severed from its body had the 271 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: chance to appreciate its circumstance. In nineteen o five, a 272 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: physician named Gabrielle Bourier conducted an experiment. He witnessed an 273 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: execution of a criminal, approached the decapitated head and shouted 274 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: the man's name. The doctor said that the man's eyelids 275 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: lifted normally as they would in life, the pupils focused, 276 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: and the eyes fixed on his own. Okay, trying to 277 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: play the cool former goth kid over here holding steady 278 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: in her combat boots, But I cannot fathom more chilling 279 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: experience on all of the earth than commuting with a 280 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: severed head. It may be difficult to demarcate the exact 281 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: threshold where life ends, but of course all of us 282 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: will die eventually, and we'll lose people we love too. 283 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: The human animal is fully aware of our own impermanence 284 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: and the fragility of our family and friends, but we 285 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: go ahead and love them anyway. John Troyer, the expert 286 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: and poet who we met at the beginning of the show, 287 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: devoted his career to contemplating death and dying. But all 288 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: those years of professional expertise didn't prepare him for a 289 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: big personal loss. So on July, my younger sister, Julie, 290 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: died from brain cancer at age a couple of young kids, 291 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: husband lived in Italy, so she died in Italy. I 292 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: was diagnosed in flight July, and then, you know, had 293 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: a year of life and it was shocking, and I 294 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: discovered a couple of blind spots that I had in 295 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: the context of my sister's dying process, which is one 296 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: it was clear at the end of April that she 297 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: was dying, like there was no coming back from where 298 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: she was the cancer of progress. And I knew it, 299 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: My dad knew what, my mom knew it, and no 300 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: one was saying anything about dying. Fast forward, I will 301 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: then actually be the person who tells my sister she's dying. 302 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: Used the word dying in July of twenty eighteen, so 303 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: sixteen days before she dies, and she was already in 304 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: the summer receiving outpatient hospice care from a wonderful hospice 305 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: in Italy. So as to why I was actually talking 306 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: about that, I don't know. Partly that's a cultural practice 307 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: in Italy, but too because I think, you know, some 308 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: of her friends just were they were unsure what to say, 309 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: and my brother in law was being told by the 310 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: counselor is like, well, you know, let her ask, And 311 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, they're a whole lot of things going on involved, 312 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: and it all in a way it makes sense. But 313 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: I think it was also very important to tell Julie 314 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: she was dying, because one I did, and she said, well, yeah, 315 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean I guess I knew, but thank you for 316 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: saying this. And it changed then her end of life 317 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: trajectory and care because suddenly then everyone was saying dying 318 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: and it no longer meant that we had to pretend, right, 319 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: how does it change it using that word? You know? 320 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: How does that change care well, I think. And what 321 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: I told my sister was, Julie, I can tell you 322 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: you're dying. You're hearing me say dying. You have to 323 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: be the one who says I'm dying because everyone needs 324 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: to hear you saying it, because you saying it will 325 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: make people take it more seriously. And she said, okay, 326 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: I understand. Um, That'sai. Well I got choked up, but 327 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: that's okay, Um, I'm happy to talk about because it's 328 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to me that I've gone for so 329 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: long without getting choked up about t story about the 330 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: one thing she said to me that I has always 331 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: stuck with me. You know, she says, I would do 332 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: the same for you, and and she would and she 333 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: would have done the same exact thing for me, and 334 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: I the thing that I think this is why I 335 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: always think about it, Like for everything I know about 336 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: death and dying, which is perhaps a lot more could 337 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: be learned than on the first to admit that for 338 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: everything I know, when presented in this moment, I will 339 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: always wonder why I didn't say what was clearly obvious. 340 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: And and again it's not a moment of regret. I 341 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: just won't I don't understand why, fellow immortals. Now would 342 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: be a great time to pause this podcast and send 343 00:20:54,160 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: a text to someone you love. I'm gonna h While 344 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: Julie was dying, John was working on a book called 345 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: Technologies of the Human Corpse. He included some poems about 346 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: his sister, and at the end of the book he 347 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: lists a bunch of questions that you can answer now 348 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: to make choices about the way you'd like to die 349 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: and be memorialized. I'm going to paraphrase a few of 350 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: them here. Think about drotting down your responses and sharing 351 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: them with someone you love, or maybe listen together and 352 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: swap answer sheets. Number one, the price range I would 353 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: like spent on my funeral is Number two? Does someone 354 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: have all your passwords and log ins? If so, who? 355 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: Number three are there's certain songs you'd like included on 356 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: your funeral playlist? Number four? Do you want life support? 357 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: Under what conditions would you like to be removed from it? 358 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: Number five? Do you have an outfit you'd like to 359 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: be dressed in? I really like that last one. There's 360 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: this almost universal protocol that dead people should be dressed 361 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: in their Sunday best, But I suck in high heels. 362 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: I want to go out in my combat boots. I've 363 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: walked the world in those, I've done my best work 364 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: in them. I've fallen in and out of love in them. 365 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: So lace them tight and double not them, please, I'm clumsy. 366 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Dr Troyer for his time and his 367 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: candor John you aren't class act. And thank you, esteemed 368 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: listener for hanging out. Our time is finite and ever fleeting, 369 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: and so I'm very grateful you've spent some of yours 370 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: with me. Deeply Human is a BBC World Service, an 371 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: American public media co production with I Heart Media. Many 372 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: humans of great depth have been involved in the making 373 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: of Deeply Human, so credit where it's due to Senior 374 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: commissioning editor Steve Titherington, editors Rich Knight and Hugh Levinson, 375 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: series producers Ben Crighton, Sandra Canthal and Simon Mabn, producers 376 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: Monica Whitlock, Jemma Nuby and Hannah Moore, researcher Beth and 377 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: head production coordinators Janet Staples and Blaze Hesselgren, and for 378 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: making it all sound beautiful. Our studio managers James Beard 379 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: and Tom Bricknell, and the composer of the deeply human 380 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: theme that is in your ears right now is Nick Thorburn. 381 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: I think I said this already, but I'm Dessa. Thanks, 382 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: see you next time.