1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. This is a mid game announcement. 4 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: We are part way through a series on the inspiring 5 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: ridiculous history of fantasy sports. 6 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, why don't we just go ahead and join 7 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: ourselves already in progress. 8 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: So they embarked upon making their dream manifest, making their 9 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: fantasy reality. They had a few ideas that didn't quite 10 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: take off, like a restaurant guide, a billing system based 11 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: on Java architecture. Along the way, they added a new 12 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: guide to the band, a guy named Matt fort Now, 13 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: and they started saying, look, we can build websites for you. 14 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: If you were someone who wants to have an online presence, 15 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: come to us. They were originally thinking about fantasy baseball 16 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: at all. It took a fantasy baseball player to contact them, 17 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: and this guy said to them, could you build me 18 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: a website that makes it easier for me to share 19 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: stuff with my fellow fantasy football league? Can you help me? 20 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: Can you help me present this information in a more 21 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: approachable way? And don't worry, I don't need you. Guys 22 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: to do the math. I have a system. I will 23 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: calculate the results myself. 24 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: Real quick, y'all. Is commissioner Is that like sort of 25 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: the dungeon master of the whole the whole deal. 26 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 27 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're They're the person who runs the league. So 28 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 3: it's very much more of an administrative position than anything 29 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: where it's just like you know, so like in our league, 30 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: like I tell my buddy Ronnie, like you're you're in charge, 31 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 3: but he kind of runs stuff a lot by a 32 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: lot of us was to kind of do it. But look, 33 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: you know, at the end of the day, because obviously 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 3: the online stuff does all the calculations. Now you don't 35 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: do that yourself, right, But. 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and that's the whole deal. This is this 37 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: product or this platform that they were working on was 38 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: ultimately dubbed commissioner because it was a way of doing 39 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: the work of that individual and making everybody a little 40 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: more freed up to have fun with it. 41 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that was the result of an ongoing evolution. Now, 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: our guy we mentioned earlier, Bizarres, he had already had 43 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: some experience. He played one year of fantasy football, and 44 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: he went to the commissioner, the admin in charge of 45 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: his league and said, hey, man, you know, just between us, 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,839 Speaker 1: how long do you spend setting everything up for us 47 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: to play this game? And the commissioner takes a second, 48 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: choose it over and says, I'm looking at it, about 49 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: eight hours per week on this and then this is 50 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: what leads to that evolution you're mentioning there. Bizaris and 51 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: his buddy say, wait, what if we can do all 52 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: that work for the commissioner. You can set up your 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: own lineups instead of having to call this guy and 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: waste eight hours of his week. We can calculate the stats, 55 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: we can put the standings up there. We can do 56 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: all of this online. 57 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: And this would be a big deal. This would be 58 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: an incredibly powerful tool to offer fantasy players. So at 59 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: the time, there were already some fantasy stats services, but 60 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: they were expensive because of how niche it was. They 61 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 2: charged about three hundred bucks a season. The partners put 62 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: their heads together inside it, they would also match that price, 63 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: but they would give a lot more bang for those bucks. 64 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: They would make it a much better service that was 65 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: currently available, and it would be the first entirely online 66 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: version of this. 67 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's a fantastic idea. It's phenomenal. 68 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: Well, it's the perfect example of being on the ground 69 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 2: floor of something where you see a need and you 70 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: recognize it because it's something that you're into and you 71 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: know it would be something that you would like to have. 72 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: It's just the perfect example of like a AHA moment 73 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: in business. 74 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: Right, it's a light bulb moment. However, asterisk, it's a 75 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: great idea that they have not actually created just yet. 76 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: No, no, this is cocktail napkin stuff for sure, chicken 77 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: chicken wing napkin stuff. 78 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: Right, everybody's two beers deep and the vibe is great. 79 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: Will this carry through tomorrow? 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 2: They have you said? 81 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: You said chip chicken wing naptin. We have to discuss this. 82 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. The table, what sauce is on there? Or 83 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: what sauce is there's probably multiple sauces. 84 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: In New York City. It would probably be just like 85 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: a good bustle buffalo wing. Yeah, yeah, probably buffalo. 86 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: There would be like a spicy barbicue you as well, 87 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: because or I hope, yeah, okay, it's mostly it's ficy 88 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: hot sauce and it's like is it kind of like 89 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: just like soaked in it, Like it's dried out afterwards. 90 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: But it's the entire things that kind of reddish nap. 91 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: I don't know what what What kind of wing did 92 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: Cuba Gooding Junior force us to eat? 93 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: Oh god, he was so specific about that. No, we'll 94 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: keep it in. This is. 95 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: For another day. 96 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've talked about that on the show. 97 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: They were talking about was very kind to us, quite 98 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: kind of kindness, let's say, mercurial perhaps, but everybody goes 99 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: through things. Uh, it was. I believe it was a 100 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: wet barbecue. 101 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: Actually, I think you're right. It was definitely. I want 102 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: to say though it was a regular old buffalo, but 103 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: it was wet for sure. 104 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: It was. 105 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: I can't I can't truly speak with authority there, but 106 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: I remember it being a wet wing. It had a 107 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: kick to it, Yeah, did right, little kick, so as 108 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,679 Speaker 2: did Kuba. Cuba was kicked up a couple of notches himself. 109 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I remember it being a wet wing. That 110 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 3: is the tagline for the episodes. 111 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: Waitne yes, So these guys are having a great time 112 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,679 Speaker 1: with their chicken wigs. God, we're gonna close the lunch 113 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: and they said, Okay, the baseball season's coming up. Let's 114 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: assume we have a few months to prepare. But then 115 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: two days later, after they have this light bulb moment, 116 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: this epiphany, they say, holy crap, guys, did you know 117 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: that we can buy ad space in the back page 118 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: of the largest fantasy magazine, fantasy sports magazine itself. And 119 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: this is to that earlier comparison about getting in on 120 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: the ground floor. This would be like if our fearless 121 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: leader Conall Brn had a meeting with us about maybe 122 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: starting podcast and then went to the New York Times 123 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: the next Thursday and took out a full page ad 124 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: same podcast We're happening. 125 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, spoke called putting the car before the horse. 126 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: For sure, they had they had the idea, they were 127 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: doing the legwork. They saw, as you said, the market opportunity. 128 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: But they had not written a single line of code. 129 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: They were just so committed. They had such faith in 130 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: their idea that they went ahead and pulled the advertisement. 131 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: Well, this is classic fake it till you make it 132 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: type stuff. So they indeed had twenty four hours to 133 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: submit the thing. They had not made a company name yet, 134 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: they had no artwork, all that good stuff. They designed 135 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 2: the ad saying that they would update the stats daily, 136 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: they would extend American Express, Visa and MasterCard, and they 137 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: also promised a whole bunch of other bells and whistles 138 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: that they had no implementation of whatsoever. 139 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: Right, I love improv man. They were just yes through 140 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: the whole thing. If you had dropped by that meeting 141 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: when they were having their frantic brain trust to make 142 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: this ad, you could have said almost anything and they 143 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: probably would have been like, yeah, put it in. That's 144 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: a great point. Anyway, they do succeed. They launched commissioner 145 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: dot com right around New Year's Eve. The ball drops 146 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: in Times Square ringing in nineteen ninety seven, just one 147 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: hectic month. This is the moment in our film adaptation 148 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: where we get the montage right. This is where we 149 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: see just snippets of their frenetic process. Bizarre Is still 150 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: has a day job. He's working at Banker's Trust, and 151 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: per his own later reports, he say that during this 152 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: month he slept it best in average of an. 153 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: Hour a night. 154 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. 155 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: If that's physically possible. Yeah, it seems like a bit 156 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: of lore, a little bit of myth making. But I 157 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: think it's safe to say that in order to get 158 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: something like this off the ground and the ridiculously tight 159 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: timeline that they set for themselves, sleep would certainly be secondary. 160 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed, right, priorities, and he has responded to this. 161 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: Bizarres later said, this sounds like hyperbole, but it isn't. 162 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: I worked all day every day, about twenty three hours. 163 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: Once we launched, I gave myself three hours of sleep 164 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: a night because we had to get ready for the 165 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: baseball season. 166 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: I think sure that could work. In the article, Scheckter 167 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: talks about a moment when Bizarres took a twenty minute 168 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: nap in a bathroom stall. This does not necessarily bode 169 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: well in terms of the efficacy of these micronap Let's 170 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: just say only to notice that he had rested his 171 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: head against the toilet paper dispenser because his forehead now 172 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: read if role is empty slide cover to write one 173 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 2: of the molded plastic jobs, right. 174 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that happens at his day job at Banker's Trust. 175 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: By this point, the fantasy football idea that they're working 176 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: on has started to turn a profit. Not a big profit, 177 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: but it started to make a little money. And this 178 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: inspires Bizarres and co. He is confident that he can 179 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: leave his job at Banker's Trust and focus all of 180 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: his energy on commissioner dot com. He's the software developer. 181 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: Every time I hear commissioner, I just think Commissioner Gordon 182 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: right inescapable. So back to that piece, Bizarres was the 183 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: software developer, while Gersh was the business guy. He handled 184 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: vendors and all of the marketing efforts. They had an 185 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: office in a building that was not up to spec, 186 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: say the The writer says that it should have been condemned. 187 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the kind of warst story that 188 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: you'll hear later in tales of Silicon Valley startups. 189 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: Classic startup lore. 190 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: Of course, no heat, no hot water. We're sleeping next 191 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: to our computers to stay warm, peeing in jugs. Mice 192 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: are there, you know what I mean. We're probably we're 193 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: probably splitting a pizza as a celebration this first baseball. 194 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: Lots of lots of robin noodles, maybe nag if you're fancy. 195 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: By the way, keynote, just a little pro tip for 196 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: our fellow Ramin fans. A dash of sesame oil not 197 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: too much. 198 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the egg, no question, crack it right, in there. 199 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: I think we're accidentally played here, we're doing it again, 200 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: because we clearly had a very heavy, heavily reliant Romen 201 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: based period of our own lives. 202 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: Well, so it's that up against lunch situation that you mentioned. 203 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yeah, rotisserie Romin chichicken wings. Okay, so you're 204 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: absolutely right, their first time out, their first time around 205 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: the block. This initial baseball season, they snagged two hundred 206 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: paid customers, each paying three hundred dollars, as you mentioned, 207 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: per season, and then they had separately one hundred subscribers 208 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: for football at the same price. 209 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: Interesting, Okay, so at this point it was secondary football. 210 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, at this point it was at this point there 211 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: were more baseball customers for Commissioner dot com. 212 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: So they were still kind of testing the waters to 213 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: see what was going to be their most popular offering. 214 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and they met with results. The next baseball season, 215 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: they have eight hundred separate leagues. That's enormous growth, and 216 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: part of that is because these guys were so nimble 217 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: and so responsive. Anytime a customer came to them with 218 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: the request that was not absolute wing nuts stuff, they 219 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: made it happen. They made it so shout out to Picard. 220 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: Indeed this Max approves. 221 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for you, Max. So this puts them streets 222 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: ahead of other people in the space like ESPN and 223 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: sports Line. At this time, they're trying to do their 224 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: own kind of fantasy thing and they only have one 225 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: set of rules that people can play. So because these 226 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: guys are so adaptable, with Commissioner dot Com, they're able 227 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: to relocate to a newer office that's not quite as terrible. 228 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: It's not great, it's just their fewer mice. 229 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: And this was just the beginning. I mean, it's nineteen 230 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 2: ninety eight. Commissioner not Gordon, and CBS would eventually partner 231 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: up to create CBS sports Line Commissioner dot com in 232 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 2: all caps. As Max points out, this is early dot 233 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: com days. So in its very first year, the fee 234 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: was dropped from three hundred bucks to only one hundred 235 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 2: because ad revenue was supplementing that. So they were able 236 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: to decrease the subscription fee, which of course was a 237 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 2: value add and helped up their numbers, but the ad 238 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: revenue ended up being way more than they bargained for 239 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: in like a really good way. 240 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, this is the kind of story that 241 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: becomes folklore. If you've ever started your own business, you 242 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: know how difficult it is to succeed in the first place, right, 243 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: you know how unimaginably amazing it is to meet this 244 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: level of success. So soon, this fee approach that they 245 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: have is really speaking to the market. They have ten 246 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: thousand football leagues. Very soon after it becomes the dominant 247 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: business for cbssportsline dot com. One month they got a 248 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: check for five hundred thousand dollars, and this clock's to 249 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: the big guys, the fatcats, and the established sports industry. 250 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: Sports Line comes to them and says, we want to 251 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: buy you out. 252 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: If you can't beat them, buy them. On December seventh, 253 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, Cbssportsline dot Com Boughtcommissioner dot Com for 254 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: forty six million dollars. And it was a massive sea 255 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: change in the lives of our heroes. 256 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: And shout out to Bizarres, who later says, when I 257 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: checked my bank ballot that day, I half expected to 258 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: see twelve dollars or whatever in my checking account, but 259 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: there were a lot of zeros. It was the most surreal. 260 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: Thing, big moment. So with Commissioner dot com launching the 261 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: first modern ish fantasy platform. Sorry I'm screaming the commons 262 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: in all caps is still test to me. 263 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: It's on purpose all caps, it is, yeah, but it 264 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: just makes you feel like you're supposed to yell at. 265 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 2: The fantasy industry was off to a great start, and 266 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: it began to exponentially increase in popularity, as Keithan Baboo 267 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 2: writes for The Miami Student, who stays they are the 268 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: oldest college newspaper west of the Alleghanies. I love anything 269 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: that claims to be something the best of something west 270 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: of the Alleghanies. This is very fun. Flex is my 271 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: points out. 272 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: I love those big claims for the Mason Dixon Line. 273 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: As long as they have a caveat, It's always the 274 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: caveat for me. 275 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: Dude. 276 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: It's like I am the world champion bingo player in 277 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: the southeastern North Ohio Cincinnati. 278 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: Area, the largest hot dog sculpture in the Chicago Land area. 279 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: Exactly right, especially when it's really specific geography, like this 280 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: is the world's fourth largest frying pad in this part 281 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: of Missouri. 282 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: Largest Adirondack chair in the Rockies. Exactly Also, I'm a 283 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: big fan of the Tri State area. Anything that refers 284 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: to the Tri State area. 285 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: Oh, I love it. I'm a sucker for that, man. 286 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: That's why I love to take road trips, avoiding interstates. 287 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: That's where you see a lot of. 288 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: The cool stuff. That's what you should all do, all 289 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: those fun roadside attractions. See rock City if you can. 290 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh man, rock City. So anyway, as Babu was reporting, 291 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: fantasy sports has a culture that you can trace throughout 292 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: the late twentieth century, but it isn't until the advent 293 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: of the Internet that it becomes wide scale popular. If 294 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: you look at our friends from a fixa from Fantasy 295 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: Sports and Gaming Association, you'll see that from nineteen ninety 296 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: one to nineteen ninety four, something between one and three 297 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: million people somehow participated in fantasy sports, but by two 298 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: thousand and three that number had more than trebled. The 299 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: figure rose to fifteen point two million people, and. 300 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: As recently as twenty twenty two, the number has ballooned 301 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 2: to more than the sixty two million people sixty two 302 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 2: point five to be I don't know. 303 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: Man, we might need to hop on the train here, 304 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: because otherwise what happens when we're some of the last 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: people who are not actively playing these games. 306 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: It's not for me, but I do because I just 307 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 2: don't have the I just don't have the knowledge to 308 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 2: really enjoy it. And I've just never been a sports guy. 309 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: I do, like you said, been enjoy the electric energy 310 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: at like live sporting events, and I really do appreciate 311 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: the folks that drill down into this kind of stuff. 312 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 2: But for me, I'm more into stats around like video games, 313 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 2: you know, like leveling up characters and doing character builds 314 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: and all of that, and also like music trivia and 315 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: movie trivia, So I do use similar parts of my brain, 316 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: do I think the parts of the brain that are 317 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: used in this kind of stuff. But it's just not 318 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: for me. But I really dig the history of it, 319 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 2: the bootstrappiness of it, all the scrappiness of this company, 320 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: and you know, love people with passion about anything. 321 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: Did I tell you, because I think I've mentioned this 322 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: off air a little bit earlier, But I won a 323 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: World Cup fantasy football league no way, Yeah, totally by 324 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: accident too, because like you, I am, by no means 325 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: a stat wizard in the world of sports. But when 326 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: Argentina took the Cup recently, I accidentally made some enemies 327 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: in this league that they invited me to because everybody 328 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: knew that I was just guessing and woefully uninformed. So 329 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: shout out to that. 330 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: That is really interesting that you point that out, because 331 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 2: we're going to get to a question that we sort 332 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: of raised at the top, where does this intersect with gambling? 333 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: And a big difference or differentiator in this from the 334 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 2: perspective of the fantasy sports industry is that this is 335 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 2: entirely considered to be a game of skill. Yes, yeah, 336 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 2: absolutely arguably though right because you can certainly still be 337 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: successful at it wildly, so to your point, Ben, just 338 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: by rolling the dice. 339 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 3: And to be and to jump in real quick. So 340 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 3: nol they actually for many many years has changed now. 341 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 3: But like the thing that stuff like FanDuel and DraftKings 342 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: were using was a special exemption in the law that 343 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: deemed that fantasy sports were not gambling. So for example, 344 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: my fantasy football league, we have like two hundred fifty 345 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 3: dollars problem and it's pretty big for a fantasy league. Yeah, 346 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 3: but it's seventeen weeks plus like the three weeks beforehand 347 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 3: and whatnot. 348 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 2: So it's like you do get paid you buy it's 349 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: so it is still kind of gam I mean. 350 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 3: Game, but it's considered a game of skill because it's 351 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 3: a lot of it's not lucky because it's just like 352 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: really hard to win, like especially a highly competitive league 353 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: without that. But it's also the buy in. Reason why 354 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 3: you do it buy in the league is a like 355 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 3: we don't we joke like it's nice to get the money. 356 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 3: I bought a new monitor and stuff like that with 357 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: the winnings last year. But the reason why you do 358 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 3: it buy in most leagues is because if you do 359 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 3: for free, people just stop playing. 360 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: It's a barrier to entry. 361 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: Right. 362 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: You don't want like any any old jabroni off the 363 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: street to jack up your league. 364 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: And they give up four weeks in, right. That's because 365 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: really this is a social activity between friends, you know, and. 366 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 3: Nothing's worse than like you play a team in a 367 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 3: league that's like really good in week one and they 368 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 3: smoke you, and then they stop playing in week four 369 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: and then everyone else beats up on them. Well I 370 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 3: had to play them in week one and they they 371 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: and then they quit afterwards. 372 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 2: Quick question, are there ways if you don't have a 373 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: group of friends, Are there like open public leagues that 374 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 2: you can be a part of the probably quite large? Yeah, Okay, 375 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: got it. 376 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 3: Well, the standard league size viusually around like ten or twelve. 377 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: In football, there's just there's just not there's just not 378 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: that many players. 379 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: So there's matchmaking basically, is what I'm saying. Exact way, it's. 380 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: Match making exactly. 381 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: No. 382 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: Then one last thing, I want to just drop on 383 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 3: this because you hit it on this perfectly. It's like 384 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 3: fantasy is sports is way more in nerdom than people 385 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: want to admit that it is. It's a pretty nerdy thing. 386 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 3: I would say, that's find of way. I think I've 387 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 3: always gravitated towards it because I am a nerdy person. 388 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 3: I love stats and stuff like that. And you said 389 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 3: matchmaking right there, I'm like, yeah, it's it's it's it's 390 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: just like that Madden is like the nerdiest game of 391 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 3: all times. 392 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: All of my parallels are video game and like nerdy 393 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: board game related. And it's a really good point, Max. 394 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: It does seem like there's a lot more intersections between 395 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: those communities than your average you know, roughneck sports fan 396 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: might admit, right, it's. 397 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: Numbers versus numbers. Really it's quantitative analysis, and this is 398 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: this is where we see again. I love that point, Max. 399 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: This is where we see something that gives lie to 400 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: the stereotype of maybe sports fans being meat heeadsh or dunderheads. 401 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: Next right, these guys are in the world of sport 402 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: them Overall, these fantasy sports players are often seen as niche, 403 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: nerdy people, and this starts to change in more recent decades. 404 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, a guy named Matthew Berry 405 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: starts two shows on ESPN, Fantasy Insider and Fantasy Football. 406 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: Now these give people fantasy football analytics every Sunday morning, 407 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 1: and this normalizes fantasy league pursuits. It also shows that 408 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: there's a demand for televised fantasy content. It makes me 409 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: think of so to continue the video game comparison, Remember 410 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: when e sports became a big thing. It was because 411 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: they were televised and they were streams, and it became 412 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: normalized to be For. 413 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: The longest time, I thought esports had to be sports 414 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: based video games, but esports refers to the entire genre 415 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 2: of competitive gaming, whatever the type of game might be. 416 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: Exactly right, like watching people, I love watching games like 417 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: Mortal Kombat or All StarCraft Smash Pros Smash Pros, and 418 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: I love hearing the excited announcers who are like, oh, 419 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: that's a block. Oh he's doing a puttish. 420 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: Well, if you're ever in Atlanta, and I'm sure there 421 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 2: are other versions of this that are very similar. Momo 422 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 2: Con is as one of my favorite nerddom fandom conferences 423 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 2: around here, and it incorporates esports in a very big way. 424 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 2: It's a huge part of what it's about. And you 425 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 2: can spectate and it is that had never done that 426 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: before and I was fascinated. So it is its own 427 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 2: type of sport. 428 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, I think we're all we're all big fans 429 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: of this, even if we're not experts in the respective fields. Now, 430 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: we wanted to end our series with one of the 431 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: big questions, and we teased at the top and kind 432 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: of throughout this gambling all right, So recent years, folks 433 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: were recording this in twenty twenty five. Recent years, changes 434 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,719 Speaker 1: in US federal and state laws have kind of opened 435 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: up sports gambling. They've paved the way for sports gambling. 436 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: One of the most notable examples of this is something 437 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: called daily Fantasy. 438 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: Which is funny because it's using that fantasy term. I 439 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 2: don't know, some of this stuff feels a little predatory 440 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 2: to me. 441 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: I agree, I agree we've had because it's a bit 442 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: bit of like a that intersection, it can be dangerous 443 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: for some people. 444 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 2: And you could argue, some could that if people have 445 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: that gambling bug or that you know, that addictive gene, 446 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: fantasy sports could very well be a gateway drug into 447 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: the kind of online gambling that can wreck people. And 448 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: I think with some of these recent changes in the 449 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: law that's more true now than ever. 450 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because we're talking about look to Max's point about 451 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: the length of time commitment for a lot of fantasy leagues, 452 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: things like daily fantasy are arguably hacking people's neurochemical processes 453 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: because now you've got instant gratification, you've got that instant 454 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: opportunity for dopamine. Instead of playing a season long term 455 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: or committing to seventeen weeks, you can draft a team 456 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: for a week or just a day, or just make 457 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: something and make a prediction on a single game and 458 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: you can win money. So how is that not gambling? 459 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: It's a philosophical question, isn't it. That's a certain point, 460 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: But also it is, you know it is. 461 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing, right, We're being so diplomatic here. 462 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: Sports betting is not a there are definitely legal ways 463 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: to do it, and there are gray market ways to 464 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: do it. But sports betting in this daily fantasy kind 465 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: of perspective, it's not the same thing as the season 466 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: long fantasy leagues. They're very different. Some experts have said 467 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: they believe people are doing daily fantasy because they couldn't 468 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: quite yet legally gamble. All right, is fantasy sport? 469 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: Uh? 470 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: Is it gambling? Is it a game of skill? Shout 471 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: out to everybody who checked checked in on our ongoing 472 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: conversation about gambling in shady gas stations on stuff they 473 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. 474 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: So is it gambling? Is it sport? 475 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 3: The answer is yes, it's both. But it's like it's 476 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 3: you know, it's it's a minutia. It's like, you know, 477 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: in like what proportion of it? And I mean, I'm 478 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 3: not a daily fantasy player. I'm not a fan of 479 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 3: it is too much of the gambling spectrum. I like 480 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 3: the skill. I like building my team out for the 481 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 3: years long. But I will make an argument for daily 482 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 3: sports right here, which is my very very very dear 483 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 3: friend Kevin Cool, who I don't think you guys have 484 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 3: met him, but you guys have heard me talk about 485 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 3: He's my friend I just saw on in Portland for 486 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 3: a while. Him and I worked together for a number 487 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 3: for about a year in a bar in Atlanta on 488 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 3: we'd work Wednesday nights together and Wednesdays were so stupid 489 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 3: slow and the NBA slate like always sucked, and so 490 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 3: we had to find a way to get through it, 491 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 3: and so we played a lot of daily fantasy about 492 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: like you know, it was like the Utah Jazz versus 493 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 3: the Minnesota timber Wolves. Do we care about either of 494 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: those teams? No, no one does. Okay, there are some 495 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 3: people out there here are fans of these teams, but no, 496 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: there's no one does. Portland Trailblazers might be a better example, 497 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 3: and he's from Portland, so he can say that now. 498 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 3: But it was something to make this game interesting and 499 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: it was fun, and it's a way I became much 500 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 3: closer friends with this guy. That's kind of what fantasy is. 501 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: It's a lot of times about finding a community a 502 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 3: friendship at people with similar interests. It's same as nerding 503 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 3: nerding on gaming and talking about Star Trek and Chicken Wings. 504 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: Yes, podcasts podcast right, Oh, I can't believe we're still 505 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: doing this low these many years, managers do have to 506 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: not just roll the dice. Right, The story that I 507 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: shared about the World Cup is very much a cartoonish outlier. 508 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: Everybody else who has playing this stuff is doing deep research, 509 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: not just facts and statistics, but game theory, a little 510 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: bit of psychological analysis or as you said, little tea 511 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: leaf reading. 512 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: And that's the thing though about this philosophical quandary around gambling, 513 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: because there are a lot of gambling games that there 514 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 2: are people that are better at it than others. Surely, 515 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: I mean, poker involves some chance, but it also involves 516 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 2: reading the room, reading people's tells, like so many little minute, 517 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: you know, micro gestures and things that go into being 518 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: a good poker player, not to mention, like adherence to 519 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: certain patterns and having certain types of strategy or whatever. Right, Like, 520 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: it's not all chance, but it's also not all skill. 521 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, And they jump in here to talk about like 522 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: that dopamine rushia you were talking about as well, which 523 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 3: is like taking I one of my biggest I consider 524 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: myself blessed that I don't have that itch. Gambling doesn't 525 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 3: scratch thatn inche for me, And but I have a 526 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 3: lot of people in my life who do have that itch, 527 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: and I've seen them, and a lot of them. I 528 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: know a lot of people who don't gamble for that reason, 529 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: and I know a lot of people who are in 530 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 3: a lot of physics have caused a lot of physical 531 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 3: harm to themselves and the people around them because of 532 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 3: that itch. And that The thing about it is when 533 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 3: you're playing in a fantasy league, there are people who 534 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 3: play fantasy who do have that itch. And you'll hear 535 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 3: like you'll I've been in the leagues before where it's 536 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 3: like five hundred dollars buy in and like monthly things, 537 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: and then like they're talking after the season, we should 538 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: over like a thousand now, and it's like, well, okay, maybe, 539 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: and they're talking about like the prize winnings and stuff. 540 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 3: But the truth is you're playing in like a standard league. 541 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: The return is so long and it takes so little 542 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 3: relative that it just doesn't really appeal to people. 543 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: That makes sense. 544 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 3: But like twenty dollars, there's like twelve hundred dollars lineups 545 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 3: you can play and like DraftKings execondly, I think you 546 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: play DraftKings Atlanta right now. 547 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: But yep, no big pass. But let's also not forget that, 548 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: you know, there's certain arguments to be made that playing 549 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: the stock market in a certain way is absolutely gambling. 550 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: And it all depends on your strategy and your long 551 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: game and how you know whether you're a day trader, 552 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: whether you're trying to like do mean stocks and all 553 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: of that kind of thing. I mean, people lose their 554 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: shirt on the stock market all the time, and it 555 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: can scratch that itch in the same way. 556 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: What's your loss tolerance, what's your risk a version? We 557 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: do want to shout out to study from the Massachusetts 558 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: Institute of Technology back in twenty eighteen. They looked at 559 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: the win loss records of thousands of fantasy players over 560 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: multiple seasons, and they concluded, based on the math, that 561 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: the game of fantasy football is inherently a contest that 562 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: rewards skill. If you're looking at these United States, you'll 563 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: see that the definition or differentiation between a game of 564 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: skill or a game of chance has gone down to 565 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: the state level. So in forty five states right now, 566 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: more or less the determination between gambling and a game 567 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: of skill is whether there is, as we said, more 568 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: skill than luck in a contest. The waters have been 569 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: pretty muddied with things like Draft Kings and fan Duel 570 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: and full disclosure folks on several shows in the past. 571 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: I believe we have done ads for at least DraftKings, 572 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: if not Fan Duel. 573 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do remember doing Draft Kings, and every time 574 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: you run one of those, every time you hear them, 575 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: you're gonna hear that fine print about God of gambling 576 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: to the addiction, you know, call this hotline. So there's 577 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: parts of the law that do require that sort of disclosure. 578 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: I will go on record again apologizing to all my 579 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: friends in the real world old who heard those trojan 580 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,959 Speaker 1: ads I had to do. That was that was awkward 581 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. But you know, protection is important. Okay, 582 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: So we've already talked about the appeal of playing fantasy sports. 583 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: We've talked about the history, which is both inspiring and 584 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: arguably ridiculous. We wanted to end by noting that there 585 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: are other fantasy sports than golf and baseball and foot curling. 586 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: Max said us, what about curly? What else we got? 587 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 3: It's like it's a compiler. I don't know if you 588 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: actually join curling leagues there, but there is a list 589 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 3: of curling leagues out there. 590 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: You got to be the change. Right, We'll start our 591 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: own curly league. We've got NASCAR and f one. We've 592 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: got oh, like we said, e sports, there's a League 593 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: of Legends, fantasy league, a Fantasy League of Legends league. 594 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: It's a fantasy game and a fantasy league. Got PGA Tour, 595 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: which makes sense. Max admits to have had his time 596 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: in the past playing fantasy golf and request that we 597 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: insert a joke about how the PGA is a flock 598 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: of cowards who are now in bed with the Saudi theocracy. 599 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: Haven't research that in a very long time, but. 600 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: That one there they. 601 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 3: Separated from Live Golf, which Lived Golf Saudi, then they 602 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 3: remerged back in. 603 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: Right. 604 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: We do check out our episode on sports swashing on 605 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want. 606 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 3: You to do, and that seems like much more in 607 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 3: y'all spectrum than it is in mine on for sure. 608 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: Check that one out, and do also check out the 609 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: episode I think been mentioned that at one point earlier 610 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: about weird sketchy stuff that goes on at gas stations, 611 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: because we do talk about in Georgia in particular, that 612 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 2: line between what makes a machine a gambling machine or 613 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: a skill based machine. 614 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: Ed also if you're listening and you are not part 615 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: of this crazy thing we call the United States. You're 616 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: already well aware that cricket is much more popular globally 617 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: than baseball, so it should come as to a surprise 618 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: that there are fantasy leagues for cricket. There are also 619 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: fantasy leagues for rugby, and as we learned right as 620 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: we were going into this episode, there are also some 621 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: fantasy leagues for sumo wrestling. 622 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: Amazing. Yeah, I really I'm excited for you and your 623 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 2: sumo adventures to come. Ben. 624 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: We'll see, man, I can't wait. I say this every 625 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: time these things come up, but I can't wait for 626 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: the three of us to get on a road trip 627 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: together and take a ridiculous history abroad. One day. Soon 628 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: we got a dream big, just like those guys at 629 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: that bar who said they were going to start a 630 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: fantasy league. 631 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did a good job, they did, agree. 632 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: And speaking of great jobs, big thanks to our super producer, 633 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams, our research associate for this series, Max Williams, 634 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: as well as Alex Williams, who composed this bang in track. 635 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 2: That's right. Thanks to Christopher Hasiotis and need Jeff codes 636 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: here and Spara, Jonathan Stricklin, The Quiztor, Aj Bahamas, Jacobs, 637 00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 2: The Pustling. 638 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: And I think that's our show. Oh my gosh, I'm 639 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 1: so excited for lunch Man. 640 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 641 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 642 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.