1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. I think 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: it's safe to say that Rudolph is a beloved holiday 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: character for a lot of folks. For sure. Yeah, I 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: don't think I'm really like over steep first stepping. Uh, 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, common opinion at that point. Most of us, 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: at this point grew up with the story of this 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: sweet little reindeer that was picked on by his peers 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: only to be the triumphant hero who saves Christmas. But 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: Rudolph is kind of unique in that he became part 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: of Christmas tradition almost the moment he was introduced in 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: nine nine. And there are a lot of variations in 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: the story of Rudolph's origins. This is largely because the 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: author of the Rudolph story gave a lot of interviews 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: throughout his life, like over the course of forty years, 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes his narrative shifted a little bit, occasionally contradicting 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: other versions that he told. There's also another related collaborator 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: in the Rudolph phenomenon who also gave conflicting accounts, and 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: because Rudolph's intense popularity was not exactly anticipated, at least 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: not at the level it achieved. It wasn't as though 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: this project was being documented and notated as the initial 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: story was being created. So all of this, you know, 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of narrative shifting and conflicting accounts, it's really pretty normal. 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: And today we're going to talk about Robert L. May 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: and how he created Rudolph, how his reindeer character became 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: a phenomenon. Will also talk about his collaboration with his 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: brother in law and how this story became an instant classic. 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: And we just want to offer a quick disclaimer here 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: if you are maybe a parent listening with a younger 31 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: history fan, this isn't really so much like a fun 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: Christmas story about uh, you know, the fictional characters. It's 33 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: very much real world story stuff going on. Some of 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: it is um, definitely sad uh and we don't you know, 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: I wanna wanna make anybody have a unhappy association with 36 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: So if you do like to listen with younger listeners, 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: I would encourage maybe give it a listen first, see 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: if it's at a level that you're comfortable sharing with them, 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: and then uh, we're off to the races. But we're 40 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: going to jump right into the story. The early life 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: of Robert L. May is just not particularly well documented. 42 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: We know he was born in nineteen o five and 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: also grew up in New Rochelle, New York, which is 44 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: the suburb made famous by the Dick Van Dyke Show. Weirdly, 45 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: I've just never associated it with I've associated it with 46 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: the the Amtrak train that goes from here to New 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: York City. Well you made I mean, you're you're a 48 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: little bit too young, right for when the Dick Vandyke 49 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: Show was super popular. Yeah, I saw it in syndication, 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: one of these things. It was always on and rerint 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: somewhere anyway, not in Portant. His parents were well off. 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: His father, Milton, was from Georgia and owned a lumber business, 53 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: and while the family was Jewish, they were also secular. 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: Robert attended college at Dartmouth, but a few years after 55 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: he completed school in nine the stock market crash of 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: nine nine happened, followed of course by the Great Depression, 57 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: and in the course of all of this, the May 58 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: family lost a lot of their money. His younger siblings 59 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: were not able to attend college. Because of the family's 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: financial situation and his early career, May worked in copy 61 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: and advertising jobs for a series of department stores, including 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: Macy's and Riches. He got married to a woman named 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: Evelyn Hayman on November twenty nine. The two of them 64 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: had a daughter named Barbara in five. By that point 65 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: they had moved to Chicago so Robert could take a 66 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: new job working as a copywriter for Montgomery Ward. And 67 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: to be very clear, Bob May was really good at 68 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: this job. There was a profile that came out about 69 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: him as his work started to gain pretty wide recognition 70 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: later on, and it included this description quote words are 71 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: maize stock in trade, and people who work with him 72 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: will tell you, only too willingly, how clever he is 73 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: in the use of words, not only any humorous use, 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: but in making them express sympathy, pathos, admiration as well 75 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: as darn good advertising. In early January nine, Robert L. 76 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: May was headed into work. He was not feeling particularly festive, 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: not looking forward to the new year. Later on, he 78 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: recalled being thankful as he went into his job. The 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: holiday decorations in the streets of Chicago had all been 80 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: taken down because he was not in the mood for them, 81 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: and May's lack of enthusiasm at this point was not 82 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: because he was returning to work after the holidays. His 83 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: family was going through an incredibly difficult time. His wife, Evelyn, 84 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: was going through a long series of cancer treatments after 85 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: having been die agnosed in nineteen thirty seven, and over 86 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: the two years since her diagnosis, the cost of her 87 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: care had really put him in a financially precurious state. Additionally, 88 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: he heard two young men in the elevator who were 89 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: talking about their plans for the year, and May was 90 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: struck with this sense of just being a middle aged underachiever. 91 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: He had gotten into writing to become a novelist, and 92 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: now he found himself quote at age thirty five, still 93 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: grinding out catalog copy instead of writing the Great American 94 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: novel as I once hoped, I was describing men's white shirts. Robert, 95 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: who went by Bob, got a call from an admin 96 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: assistant saying that he needed to report to his boss's office, 97 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: and at this point Bob just thought this was some 98 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: other dull and uninspiring work assignment. But the assignment he 99 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: was about to receive was anything but his standard copy requests. 100 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: The story, as May told it went this way. His 101 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: department head H. G. McDonald said, quote, Bob, I've got 102 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: an idea. For years, our stores have been buying those 103 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: little Christmas giveaway coloring books from local peddlers. I think 104 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: we can save a lot of money if we create 105 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: one ourselves. Could you come up with a better booklet 106 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: we could use. May's supervisor went on to tell him 107 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: that it should have an animal as the main character, 108 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: and mentioned that it should be something like Ferdinand the Bull. 109 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: For context, just in case you are not familiar with 110 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: that story. The story of Ferdinand, written by Monroe Leaf, 111 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: had come out three years earlier and it was a 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: huge hit. And this tells the story of a young 113 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: bull named Ferdinand who has no interest in bullfights. He 114 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: doesn't want to fight with other bulls, he doesn't want 115 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: to butt heads with them to prove who's stronger, and 116 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: he cannot be provoked by matadors. Instead, he just loves 117 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: to smell flowers. And by the time May got his assignment, 118 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: Ferdinand was one of the most popular books in the 119 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 1: United States, so it's really not surprising that his boss 120 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: would reference the pacifist bovine as a model. This is 121 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: definitely still something that people were reading when I was 122 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: a kid. Yeah. Same. The reason that a catalog copywriter 123 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: was chapped for this project was apparently because May had 124 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: performed some comedic songs at the company holiday party a 125 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: couple of years earlier, and they'd become popular enough that 126 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: he was asked to write similar songs for other company events. 127 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: So his bosses knew that he could write in verse 128 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: using clever word play. As Bob May ruminated on this 129 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: assignment later that evening, he started thinking both about Christmas 130 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: appropriate animals and the kinds of animals that his daughter, 131 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: Barbara liked. Barbara, who was four at this point, loved 132 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: the deer at the zoo, so he quickly decided that 133 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,679 Speaker 1: a reindeer was going to be the best protagonist. Reindeer 134 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: were definitely strongly associated with Christmas already by this point, 135 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: so this was a logical step. And the next step 136 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: in May's development of the idea was to try to 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: think of a way to make the story didactic. He 138 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: tried to come up with a lesson that this reindeer 139 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: could teach to kids. He knew he wanted it to 140 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: be an underdog story, According to his account, he thought 141 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: about the fact that the ultimate dream for a reindeer 142 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: would be to pull Santa sleigh, and in some versions 143 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: of the story, May would also mention that he was 144 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: inspired by the Hans Christian Anderson story of the ugly 145 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: duckling a glance out the window as he was having 146 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: all of these thoughts gave May the inspiration for the 147 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: key trait that would become forever associated with the name 148 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: Rudolph in pop culture. He had noticed that fog had 149 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: rolled into the city from Lake Michigan, and his mind 150 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: wandered to the story he had been working on, and 151 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: when he started wondering exactly how Santa might manage traveling 152 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: via flying sleigh in low visibility fog, the idea, he 153 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: always said, kind of came to him like a flash. 154 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: Rudolph would have a glowing nose that could act as 155 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: a floodlight and lead Santa through fog. Bob May was 156 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: excited about this idea, somebody who writes, sometimes, I know 157 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: what that feels like. His boss was not as receptive 158 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: as he hoped, though. When he pitched this at work 159 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: the next morning, the reaction was lukewarm at best. May 160 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: would later say that the exact reaction was, for gosh sakes, Bob, 161 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: can't you do better than that? Uh? Years later, McDonald's wife, Bernice, 162 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: said that the reason he was initially put off was 163 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: because of the association between red noses and drunkenness. I 164 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: could see that logic, sure, um, but this is also 165 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: a good moment to think about, like for anybody that 166 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: does creative things. I've written stuff, I make various things, 167 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: and there are times when you think you put it 168 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: together and someone else seas it goes huh. That doesn't 169 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: always mean it's not great. So of course we know 170 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: that that is not the end of Rudolph. And after 171 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: we take a quick sponsor break, we're going to see 172 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: how Robert May continued to champion his project and his 173 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: little reindeer even after his boss told him to come 174 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: up with something else. So we mentioned before the break 175 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: that Bob May's boss was not into the Rudolph story. 176 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: But thankfully May, who may or may not have already 177 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: settled on that name, Rudolph accounts very about it, was 178 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: already attached though, to both the character and the story. 179 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: So next he turned his creative thinking to how he 180 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: could convince his boss that this was really something they 181 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: should do, and May decided that if he could just 182 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: show him a visual of what he was thinking of, 183 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: it might convince him to approve the project to move forward. 184 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: The help with this plan, May approached Denver Gillen, who 185 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: was a friend of his from the company's art department. 186 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: He explained to Denver what the Rudolph story was and 187 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: that he needed help convincing higher ups that this is 188 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: a good idea. So he asked him, Denver, could you 189 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: draw a deer with a big red nos and still 190 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: make him look appealing. They struck up a plan to 191 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: work on a visual pitch over the weekend, so that 192 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: Saturday morning, May, Gillen and May's daughter Barbara, We're all 193 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: at the Lincoln Park Zoo looking at the deer, and 194 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: Denver made several sketches as they observed the animals, and 195 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: then he kind of reworked those into sketches of characters, 196 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: and by the time the day ended, May and Gillen 197 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: felt like they had something good enough to bring to 198 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: work on Monday and asked the bosses to revisit the 199 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: Rudolph idea. We've got to give credit to the boss. 200 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: He reversed his previous decision after he saw this and 201 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: understood the story more fully, saying, quote, Bob, forget what 202 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: I said. Put the story into finish form. Yeah, not 203 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: all bosses are willing to shift their their stands on things. 204 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: So I kind of love that. He was like, no, 205 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: I get it, now, this is great. I was wrong. Cool. 206 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: Over the next several months, May and Gillen worked on 207 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: the project, and the was something that was like they 208 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: were still having to do their day jobs. It wasn't 209 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: like their plates had been cleared to to only work 210 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: on this. So it was a little bit of an 211 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: evening since weekends situation. But as this really pretty exciting 212 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: opportunity to do something more than right about men's shirts 213 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: offered me the creative outlet he had been longing for, 214 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: his personal life at this time was not so joyous. 215 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: So Bob was working on Rudolph in the evenings and 216 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: in his spare time at work, but his wife, Evelyn's 217 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: condition was growing more and more grave, and in July 218 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: she died, and that left Bob a widower with a 219 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: small child. When May returned to work after the loss 220 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: of his wife, his boss made it clear that he 221 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: did not have to keep working on this Rudolph project, 222 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: saying quote, I can understand you're not wanting to go 223 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: on with the kid's book. Give me what you've got 224 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: and I'll let someone else finish it. But May did 225 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: not want to leave this project, and almost four decades later, 226 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: when recounting the story, he wrote, quote, but I needed 227 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: Rudolph now more than ever. Gratefully, I buried myself in 228 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: the writing. May wrote through what must have been just 229 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: the height of his grief, and he finished the story 230 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: a month after Evelyn died, that was in August of 231 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: ninety nine. He shared the story with his in laws, 232 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: who were staying with him at the time, and with 233 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: his daughter, and their reaction told him that he had 234 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: created something really special. He had run some of his 235 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: work by Barbara as he worked, and she mentioned in 236 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: an interview with NPR in that she had responded negatively 237 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: to the words stomach at one point because she thought 238 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: that was ikey that got switched to tummy when it 239 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: came to describing Santa's shaking belly. I can only imagine, 240 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: like a four year old copy editor, that's gross. Change 241 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: that word. They're so blunt. A quick note here is 242 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: that there is actually a vastly different version of this 243 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: origin story, which, like the one we just recounted, kind 244 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: of comes from Robert el May himself. It was in 245 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: an issue of Coronet Magazine, from an in debt article. 246 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: May told the journalist writing the piece that he wrote 247 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: Rudolph to comfort his daughter because of Evelyn's illness, and 248 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: that his boss at Montgomery Ward heard about the story 249 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: and decided to use it for the promotional book. So 250 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: whether this was a matter of misinterpretation on the interviewer's 251 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: part or May just punching up the story, we don't 252 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: a hundred percent no. But that's not the only aspect 253 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: of this different tale. There was also a friend of 254 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: May's in the mix, Stanley Frankel, who had pitched the 255 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: story to Coronet and who might have been the source 256 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: of some of this mismatching information, and lore May himself 257 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: referred back to the article at various times, though, so 258 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: he knew about that version, and he didn't really make 259 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: any effort to denounce it. As a consequence, both of 260 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: these origin stories persist, although the job assignment version is 261 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: actually corroborated. This is one of those things where I 262 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: wonder if he just had no sense of the fact 263 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: that people would want to look at this as a 264 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: part of history. And he's like, man, it's fine, yeah, 265 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: it seems pretty no one. No one probably thinks they're like, uh, 266 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: their story of writing a book is going to become 267 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: an important story to people later on. So he probably 268 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: was fairly unconcerned about an article in a magazine. May's 269 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: Rudolph book, which is written in rhyming couplets, starts with 270 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: a nod to a visit from St. Nicholas, which was 271 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: already more than a century old when May started his 272 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: Rudolph project, So of course that starts, uh, you know, 273 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: twist the Night before Christmas. Rudolph's story begins twas the 274 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: day before Christmas, and all through the hills the reindeer 275 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: were playing, enjoying their spills. So if your recollection of 276 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: the Rudolph's story comes mostly from the song, which we 277 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: will get to, or the Rank and Bath Holiday special, 278 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: which we will also get to, you might be surprised 279 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: at some of the differences in May's story from what 280 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: you remember and the Montgomery word version. Rudolph does not 281 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: live at the North Pole with Santa. He's one of 282 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: the many creatures who hangs the stocking and waits excitedly 283 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: for Santa's visit. And in this version, Santa does take 284 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: to the skies with his standard team of eight reindeer, 285 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: and he gets in some trouble in that foggy climate, 286 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: getting quote tangled in treetops again and again, and he 287 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: even narrowly misses a collision with a plane. It's pretty exciting. 288 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: Santa starts getting pretty stressed quote through dark streets and houses. 289 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: Old Santa did poorly. He now picked the presence more slowly, 290 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: less surely. He really was worried for what would he 291 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: do if folks started waking before he was through? And 292 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: this original version of the story, Santa discovers Rudolph and 293 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: his magnificent glowing nos when he stops the reindeer's house. 294 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: As he gets into Rudolph's room to put gifts in 295 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: the stocking, he finds his job much easier. Quote the 296 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: lamp wasn't burning. The light came instead from something that 297 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: lay at the head of the bed. And there lay 298 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: But wait, now, what would you suppose the glowing You've 299 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: guessed it was Rudolph's red nose. So this room was easy. 300 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: This one little light. Let Santa pick quickly the gifts 301 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: that were right, So, of course you know what happens next, 302 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: Santa gets the great idea to bring Rudolph onto the team, 303 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: wakes him up and asked him if he'll do some work, 304 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: and the little reindeer that had been bullied and mocked 305 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: becomes a hero. And Rudolph's parents feel about this It's interesting, Um, 306 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: I was reading an interesting piece that kind of breaks down, 307 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, some of the Rudolph stuff. People love to 308 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: analyze it of how very different this is from previous 309 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: versions of Christmas stories. Like the reindeer very anthropomorphized in 310 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 1: this version. I mean, Rudolph like writes notes, he talks, 311 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: he's you know, they sit at picnic tables at one point, Like, 312 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: it's very much like that. Whereas Santa, who is in 313 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: a lot of instances portrayed as almost um supernaturally powerful, 314 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: is really much more human in this version. So uh, 315 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: presumably Rudolph's parents were like, all right, sure, go with 316 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: this strange dude. I mean, we theoretically know him, but 317 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,239 Speaker 1: that seems fine. So May's thirty two page book was 318 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: printed by Montgomery Ward in bulk for the Christmas season, 319 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: there were two point four million copies made to give 320 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: away to shoppers across the United States. It was advertised 321 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: with a big poster that read quote, get ready for 322 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, the rollicking list, rip roaring ist, 323 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: riot provoking list Christmas giveaway. Your town has ever seen 324 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: why they would think that provoking a riot was like 325 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: a good way to draw customers. I have not a dent, sure, 326 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: but the store had a hit and they planned to 327 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: reprint may his book on subsequent years because it brought 328 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of shoppers. And this is at a time. 329 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: Remember right, we're at the end of the Great Depression, 330 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: So the fact that a lot of people flocked to 331 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: stores and we're buying things was a big deal. A 332 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: nineteen forty memo to store managers read quote, everyone we 333 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: have checked with shares our belief that Rudolph in nineteen 334 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: forty will play a far bigger, more important role than 335 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty nine. But the start of World War 336 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: Two caused paper to be in high demand and short 337 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: supply and very expensive. That meant that Rudolph was not 338 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: printed again until nineteen forty six. Although the character remained 339 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: the central figure of the store's holiday campaigns. In nineteen 340 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: forty six, Montgomery Ward printed three point six million copies 341 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: and distributed them to eager customers. And in those years 342 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: between ninety six, Robert May had been busy. See he 343 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: actually published another children's book, Benny the Bunny Liked Beans, 344 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: which did okay but not gangbusters. It was not another Rudolph, 345 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: and he had remarried, this time to a woman named 346 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: Virginia Newton, who also worked for Montgomery Ward. The couple 347 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: had five children together, so Barbara got a whole bunch 348 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: of younger siblings. We mentioned earlier that May was brought 349 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: up in a secular Jewish family, but an interesting note 350 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: is that his own kids didn't know that he was 351 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: Jewish until much later in life. He converted to Catholicism 352 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: for Virginia, and there's some speculation that he may have 353 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: purposely downplayed being Jewish out of concern that it might 354 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: have been problematic for people to know that a secular 355 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: Jewish man had written a beloved Christmas story. I will 356 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: say he's definitely not the only Jewish person to have 357 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: written beloved Christmas stuff. No, there's an entire list you 358 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: could find of Jewish creators who contributed significantly to the 359 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: Lord of Christmas. May had, in that interim also been 360 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: given an honorary membership in ninety one to the National 361 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: Association of Authors and Journalists for his contribution to contemporary literature. 362 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: So while he may have not written the great American 363 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: novelist he had hoped, the writing community definitely considered him appear. 364 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: There is a moment in the Rudolph story that really 365 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: changes Robert May's life, and we are going to tell 366 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: you about that after a word from the sponsors who 367 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: keep stuff you missed in history class going sewell. Avery 368 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: was CEO of Montgomery Ward in and he turned the 369 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: rights to Rudolph over to Robert May, free and clear. 370 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: So even though May had created it, he was working 371 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: for Montgomery Ward at the time, so prior to this 372 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: he had no claims to that story. The exact logic 373 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: of why this handover happened isn't entire early known. One 374 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: theory is that the executives at the company just did 375 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 1: not see Rudolph as having any financial potential. They had 376 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: already given away millions of copies, so they thought that 377 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: if they did bother to for example, go to print 378 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: with a new addition and try to sell it. No 379 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: one was going to buy it, and that they would 380 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: have wasted their money on a production run. Another version 381 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: of the story goes that Bob May was still struggling 382 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: under the debt he had accrued during his first wife's illness, 383 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: and when he went to his boss to ask about 384 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: a possible bonus because of Rudolph's popularity, he ended up 385 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: getting the rights instead. The first version sounds a little 386 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: bit more realistic, although May was, to be clear, financially 387 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: strapped for years after Evelyn's death, and the Rudolph rights 388 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: got him out from under those debts. Uh. The medical 389 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: debt part of this story sounds incredibly familiar, Uh, Montgomery 390 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: Ward giving him the rights free and clear is like 391 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: literally the opposite of what we hear about with creators 392 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: all the time time. It's really mind blowing, like that 393 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: they were just like, that's cool, it's yours. What. So 394 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: there's also yet another version of this whole story that 395 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: May himself once told that he had been offered a 396 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: deal to record his Rudolph poem as a spoken word 397 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: record in nineteen forty six, but that he didn't own 398 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: the rights, so he had to turn that down. Then 399 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: colleagues at the company helped make the case that May 400 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: should be allowed to take the project because he hadn't 401 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 1: gotten any kind of bonus or renumeration for writing a 402 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: promotional book that drew huge crowds during the holiday shopping season. 403 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: And in this version, this is what led Suell Avery 404 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: to turn over the rights to the author. Whether that 405 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: was through a moment of kindness or just like poor 406 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: business strategy, we don't really know. A recording of Rudolph 407 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: the Red Nosed Reindeer was released in nineteen forty seven 408 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: to great success. Just as another shading to this story, 409 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: Suell Avery was considered to be really astute as a businessman, 410 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: like he had gotten Montgomery Ward, passed the depression, and 411 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, was making a profit, so he wasn't a fool. 412 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: So that adds a whole other like factor in the 413 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: How exactly did he come to this decision? And though 414 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: Suell Avery might have thought that Rudolph was kind of 415 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: played out, May thought his little reindeer still had some magic, 416 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: and he was absolutely right. Although publishers were initially reluctant 417 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: to try to sell the poem as a hardcover book, since, 418 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: as we just mentioned, the market was full of free 419 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: copies already at that point, like six million copies were 420 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: up there, and they were like, there's not enough more 421 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: people that want this book that we will ever be 422 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: able to do this. But one publishing executive named Harry Elbaum, 423 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: who claimed that he liked Rudolph because he too was 424 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: teased about his nose, which was allegedly large, decided that 425 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: May's story was worth the risk. His publishing house put 426 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: out a one hundred thousand copy run of Rudolph the 427 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: Red Nose Reindeer in nineteen which sold out very quickly 428 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: and left consumers clamoring for more. By nineteen fifty, they 429 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: were putting out one million copies to meet demand for 430 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: the holiday season. But Rudolph's story also took another turn 431 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen forties, and that was one that 432 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: would help catapult May's character to an even greater fame. 433 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: And to talk about what happens next, we have to 434 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: switch gears really quick to talk about another man, Johnny Marks. So. 435 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: Johnny Marks was born in Mount Vernon, New York, on 436 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: November nine, nineteen o nine, and as a child Johnny 437 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: attended New York's Ethical Culture Society School that was a 438 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: school popular with secular Jewish families. He went on to 439 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: Colgate University, where he majored in English, and then he 440 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: studied music after his undergrad even traveling to Paris to 441 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: do so. Although he didn't get any advanced degrees, he 442 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: was just kind of traveling and learning about music. He 443 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: had wanted to be a songwriter since he was just 444 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: a kid. By his mid twenties, Marx had carved out 445 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: a life for himself in music. He was writing songs, 446 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: although not making enough at it to support himself, so 447 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: he also gave voice lessons and worked as a producer 448 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: on radio shows. In ninety seven, after serving four years 449 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: in the Army as part of the twenty six Special 450 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: Services Company, which was largely made up of entertainers, Marx 451 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: got married. His bride was Margaret May, and Margaret was 452 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: Robert May's sister, and with a songwriter in the family, 453 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: Robert had another idea for Rudolph set the story to music. 454 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: Johnny got to work reworking the poem into the lyrics 455 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: that we know today. According to Johnny's account later in life, 456 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: he had already started making notes about Rudolph as a 457 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: possible song long before he ever joined the May family, 458 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: all the way back in nineteen thirty nine when the 459 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: story first came out. Yeah, Johnny told a lot of 460 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: different versions of Rudolph's stories through the years and has 461 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: kind of clouded the record in terms of what is 462 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: and is not the case regarding it, but just one 463 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: aspect of why it's a little bit tricky. But as 464 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: Johnny developed this song throughout, he was really confident in it. 465 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: There is no doubt about that Rudolph's story was already 466 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,959 Speaker 1: a classic at this point, and he believed that this 467 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: song was just naturally going to be a hit. And 468 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: so Mark spent twenty five thousand dollars setting up a 469 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: music publishing company so that he could publish the musical 470 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: version of Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer himself and have 471 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: complete control and ownership of it. Then he needed to 472 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: find a performer to sing it, and Marks, again certain 473 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: that the song would be big, was just not shy 474 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: at all about reaching out to some really big names. 475 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: He pitched it to Jeane Autrey, who did not like it, 476 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: and the story goes that fortunately Gina Autrey's wife loved it. 477 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: She cajoled him into recording it and releasing it as 478 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: a B side to the song If it doesn't snow 479 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: on Chris Us That account has been disputed as a 480 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: really good story, but maybe not the truth. But in 481 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: any case, this recording of Rudolph sold two million copies 482 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: in ninety nine and eventually fifteen million copies were sold. Yeah, 483 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: the the g notry part of this story could be 484 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: a whole other episode on its own about whether you know? 485 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: That becomes even more of like a strange legendary tale 486 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: where all of the different musicians that worked on it 487 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: have a different version of it, and like executives, record 488 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: label executives at Columbia have a different version of like 489 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: there are there's no pattern recognition, like there's there's no 490 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: This one and this one are both pretty similar. It's 491 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: all everybody's got their own, their own take on it. 492 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: And while Johnny Marks have been working on that Rudolph song, 493 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: an animated version of the story had also gone into 494 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: production at the Jam Handy Organization. Famed animation director Max 495 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: Fleischer directed this, and the original version included a title 496 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: card that read seasoned Greetings from montgomery Ward. Although May 497 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: owned the copyright at this point, Montgomery Ward had financed 498 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: the projects so it could still get the benefit of 499 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: advertising with Rudolph. Subsequent issues of this eight and a 500 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: half minute short had that card removed and the Johnny 501 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: Mark song included at the beginning and the end of 502 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: the cartoon. Also, this was part of one of the 503 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: funniest riff tracks live events of all times. Um, I 504 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: don't I don't think I was at this one. Oh 505 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: my goodness. I literally I laughed so hard that I 506 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: reached that point where my brain could not process my 507 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: brain and body could not process laughter. And I was 508 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: just silently crying in a joyous way, but like nothing 509 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: was actually coming out of me soundwise. In a December 510 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: article in the Chicago Sunday Tribune, there was a piece 511 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: about Rudolph, and the focus of it was how May's 512 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: kids were kind of a bit tired of Rudolph. Uh. 513 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: They were so tired of May talking about Rudolph all 514 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: the time that talking about it was forbidden at the 515 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: dinner table, even though it was that very character who 516 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: had enabled their father to support their family in a 517 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: pretty nice way. At that point, they were at the time, 518 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: especially irked the kids when someone called Bob May Rudolph's father, 519 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: because that implied that they had an animal for a sibling, 520 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: although later in life Barbara would in fact describe Rudolph 521 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: as her brother in interviews, and by this point probably 522 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: another point of contention for the kids. Robert May had 523 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: started putting an eight foot tall Rudolph on the family 524 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: lawn during the holidays each year so everyone would know 525 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: where the Rudolph people lived. In ninety one, managing Rudolph 526 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: had become a full time job for Robert May, and 527 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: he left Montgomery Ward to oversee the licensing of toys, 528 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: art lamps, school bags, salt and pepper shakers, and really 529 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: any novelties that featured his famous creation. He also wrote 530 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: several additional books featuring Rudolph, including Rudolph to the Rescue, 531 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: released in nineteen fifty one, Rudolph Shines Again, first published 532 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty four, and Rudolph's Second Christmas, which was 533 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: first released in nineteen seventy. Those titles have all been 534 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: published in various editions, sometimes bundled together. There were also 535 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: comic book adaptations, storybook versions, and many many reprintings of 536 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: the original story. By ninety eight, that kind of deluge 537 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: level revenue stream from Rudolph was slowing to a bit 538 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: of a trickle. So Bob May went back to Montgomery 539 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: Ward as a copywriter, and he actually stayed in that 540 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: job until he retired in nineteen seventy. In nineteen sixty four, 541 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: the Rank and Bass Holiday Special version of Rudolph the 542 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: Red Nose Reindeer debut that was bankrolled by General Electric. 543 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: This stop motion special was based on the Johnny Marks song. 544 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: The production team at Rank and Bast didn't actually have 545 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: a copy of the original poem. There's also a lot 546 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: of creative license taken with the story development. There's Hermie 547 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: the Elf and Yukon Cornelius and the Bumble and Clarice 548 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: and the Island of Misbit toys. They are all unique 549 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: to the special. They have nothing to do with the 550 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: original poem or the song, but I love them desperately 551 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: as a person who has a full size King Moon 552 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: Racer costume. Part of the reason that all of these 553 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: additional characters and plotlines were made was because the source 554 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: material was simply not long enough to make a special. 555 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: I think I read a stat where if someone had 556 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: just read the poem and it had been animated to 557 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: it would only have lasted about thirteen minutes. And like that, 558 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: this was an hour long block of programming. So if 559 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: they had not embellished the story, they would not have 560 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: had enough material for an hour long special, even when 561 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: you factor in commercials. And of course this is for 562 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: people our age. I think Tracy the Rootolf they know best. Uh, 563 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: that special continues to air regularly. It has its own 564 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: huge fan base, It has generated its own line of 565 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: merchandise and collectibles. I feel like we should also mention that, 566 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: like this came out before the concept of a holiday 567 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: special was really a thing, so it's one of the 568 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: projects that actually launched that idea. Like now we have, 569 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, a kajillion There were a lot more ranking 570 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: Bass holiday shows. There were the um the Peanuts holiday specials. 571 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: There are now holiday specials associated with every big brand 572 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: that wasn't happening yet though in this in the early sixties, 573 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: they kind of were the forerunners in that space. Meanwhile, 574 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: I'm sitting here like, was it really an entire hour? 575 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: I know, I've watched it ten thousand times, and I'm 576 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: still like, it's a whole hour with commercials. Yes anyway. 577 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: In one Robert's wife, Virginia died. He got remarried to 578 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: her sister not long after. For this. In nineteen seventy five, 579 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: Robert L. May wrote the story of his creation of 580 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: Rudolph for the Gettysburg Times. This actually was syndicated and 581 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: ran in a lot of papers. I read it in 582 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: the Gettysburg Times edition. Uh. And he subtitled it Rudolph 583 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: and I were something alike. And at the end of 584 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: his account he wrote that children get to read a 585 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: story about quote a little deer who started out in 586 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: life as a loser, just as I did. But then 587 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: he goes on to explain that the things that held 588 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: Rudolph back became the exact things that gave him happiness 589 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: once he gave himself for others. May concluded this by writing, quote, 590 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: my reward is knowing that every year, when Christmas rolls around, 591 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: Rudolph still brings that message to millions, both young and old. 592 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: A year after he wrote that account, Robert May died. 593 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: That was on August eleventh, nineteen seventies six. That eight 594 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: foot rein deer that had graced his lawn every year 595 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: was given to Dartmouth, where it is still kept. Yeah, 596 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: they have an entire Robert May archive. They or you 597 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: can also find scans of the original hand lettered hand 598 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: drawn manuscript for the book that May and Gillan produced 599 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty nine. Those are pretty easily locatable online, 600 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,439 Speaker 1: and the sketches will strike you if you've never seen 601 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: it before. Is pretty simple. They look, you know, kind 602 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: of like advanced crayon drawings, not something a kid would do, 603 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: but also not super refined, but they're very evocative. The 604 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: illustration depicting Rudolph crying because the other reindeer are cruel 605 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: to him is to me at least oddly affecting. It 606 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: takes up the top half of the page and the 607 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: text fills the lower half, but the way that the 608 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: art is drawn, Rudolph's tears fall all the way down 609 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: the page through the text section on the subject of 610 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: Montgomery Ward. They actually filed for chapter eleven in and 611 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: they closed in two thousand. In a quote given to 612 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: the Chicago Sunday Tribune for that nineteen fifty article that 613 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: we referenced earlier, Robert May summed up why he thought 614 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: that Rudolph had caught on with kids so instantly. Quote, 615 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: children are the little people, the underdogs of the world. 616 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: No matter how well adjusted they are, they just can't 617 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: help feeling pretty small and helpless alongside the adults that 618 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: tower around them. That's why children even more quickly than adults, 619 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: identify themselves with the underdog. In a story with Cinderella, 620 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: the ugly duckling Rudolph. When Rudolph eventually rides to glory 621 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: with Santa, each child rides with him and loves it. 622 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: Oh Rudolph. Yeah, I will say um that riff tracks 623 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: was the first time that I ever saw the original 624 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: version of the Rudolph story, and I was so like 625 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: confused initially, I'm like, did they take a lot of 626 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: liberties with this? No, that's the original version, fool the 627 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: way around. I'm not actually sure I've ever seen it. Um. 628 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 1: You can also find it online. Library of Congress has 629 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: the only, to the best of anyone's knowledge, version of 630 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: that original cut with the Montgomery Ward greeting card in it. Um. 631 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: You can also find the version that came out later 632 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: because this song had gotten so popular, where they cut 633 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: the song in at the front and the back. Um. 634 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's very easy to find and it's a 635 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: really really beautiful um digitization of it. It's not like 636 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: a big Sometimes when you see old animation that's been digitized, 637 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: it's a little like Wincy because you can tell how 638 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: much the film degree before someone did it. This is 639 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: actually quite pristine. Rudolph, Rudolph, I have listener mail that 640 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: is about Maria Mozart or Marianna Mozart. This is from 641 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: our listener Angie, who writes, Hello, I was so happy 642 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: to listen to your recent episode about Maria on a Mozart. 643 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm a children's librarian, Okay. I just had to shout 644 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: you out because I love that. Thank you uh and 645 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: was especially excited for this episode because one of America's 646 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: most beloved young adult authors, Marie Lou just wrote a 647 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: historical fiction novel about Maria Mozart and her brother's fantasy world, 648 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: entitled Kingdom of Back. She spoke at the San Diego 649 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: Library this spring, right before the COVID shutdown, and I 650 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: was so impressed with the amount of research she did 651 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: for her book. I bet you both would get along 652 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: with her so well. Strong research by women unite. Thank 653 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: you so much for your delightful podcast. Here are some 654 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: bonus pictures of my rescue cat Ali. She takes naps 655 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: next to me while I listened to your podcast as 656 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: I sew, And as a bonus, a pick of the 657 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: plumeria by my house that is still blooming in November. 658 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: This is a blatant attempt to entice you to come 659 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: to a show here after COVID times and enjoy San 660 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: Diego's beachside paradise. Warm regards, Happy Thanksgivings. We are recording 661 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: this actually Thanksgiving week, Angie. Thank you so much. Your 662 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: cat is adorable and I love that you listen and 663 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: so at the same time, are you mean, UM, I 664 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,919 Speaker 1: don't need any cajoling to get to San Diego. I'll 665 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: go at the drop of a hat once this business 666 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: is over because I love that town. Um. And I 667 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: actually had read Marie Lou's book. Um. I didn't include 668 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: it as a source since it is fiction, but it 669 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: is really really good. And the Kingdom of Back is 670 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: the secret kingdom we referenced in that that UM episode 671 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: that Maria, Anna and Vokang kind of invented together. That 672 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: was their little getaway fantasy play world. So thank you 673 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: so much for writing about that. Uh. And I think 674 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 1: people should check that out. I love a fiction story 675 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: based on historical people. Maybe you will too. Uh. If 676 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, you can do 677 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: so at History podcast at i heeart radio dot com. 678 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as missed 679 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: in History and if you would like to subscribe to 680 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: the podcast and haven't yet, you can do that so 681 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: easily on the I heart radio app, at Apple podcasts, 682 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you 683 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. 684 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart 685 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 686 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: favorite shows.