Speaker 1: Lava for Good and Stand Together Music Present The War
Speaker 1: on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
Speaker 1: into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, its impact,
Speaker 1: its failures, and the people offering a better path forward.
Speaker 2: Hey that me and Greg, our guests and sponsors may
Speaker 2: sound smart, We may even make some good points, but
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, we're not medical professional.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast. Anything
Speaker 2: we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
Speaker 2: consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 4: Got it, Clayton, it's book report time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we at the end, man, Yeah, this group project,
Speaker 2: we pulled it together.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It was an amazing season and a lot of traveling
Speaker 5: and meeting people where they were. Yeah, that was kind
Speaker 5: of the of the season.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, man, way to bring that around. Yeah, we
Speaker 2: met people definitely where they were.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't think nobody met us halfway.
Speaker 2: Now we met We might have met each other halfway
Speaker 2: when we were going.
Speaker 5: Like yeah, yeah, what was some of the your favorite
Speaker 5: moments lessons something that you took away?
Speaker 3: Oh, man, I think.
Speaker 2: Some of the lessons that I definitely took away is
Speaker 2: the cannabis industry in the weed business, right being two
Speaker 2: separate things that operate off each other.
Speaker 5: You know, the you know, regular market, the legal market
Speaker 5: versus the black and the gray market, where because of
Speaker 5: prohibition still because our federal government still schedules this as
Speaker 5: a Schedule one drug, you know, you still have that
Speaker 5: proliferation because you know, local laws and state laws cap
Speaker 5: this market and make it a second class industry. You
Speaker 5: allow for people that were you know, selling illegally you know,
Speaker 5: quote unquote you know, through the laws and system to
Speaker 5: continue to happen. The thing that you are trying to prevent,
Speaker 5: you are allowing to thrive because of these things. And
Speaker 5: it's just something we saw every single time, and every
Speaker 5: single one of our conversations was that part where it
Speaker 5: was like, if it was only this, you could only
Speaker 5: just put some money in a bank, if you can
Speaker 5: only just like say like hey, and all the great
Speaker 5: stuff that we have seen with legalization, the fact that
Speaker 5: you can literally go into places and actually get t
Speaker 5: I mean, so many people have access to it that
Speaker 5: just did not before, and that's.
Speaker 4: An amazing thing.
Speaker 5: But we're still seeing so much of the same stuff
Speaker 5: happened because of prohibition. Like we've said, like you know,
Speaker 5: the fact that it is a second class industry, the
Speaker 5: fact that you know.
Speaker 4: It's a cash business.
Speaker 5: So now people have to treat it in a different
Speaker 5: way and it makes them more susceptible to being you know,
Speaker 5: crimer and actually getting you know, it's all these things
Speaker 5: that are happening, and we just need to kind of
Speaker 5: look at that where hey, we haven't crossed the finish
Speaker 5: line just yet.
Speaker 3: It's still a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And just kind of another takeaway I had from
Speaker 5: the season, you know, kind of getting more on the
Speaker 5: treatment and the things that we're seeing with psilocybin, and
Speaker 5: you know, we talked a little bit about it last
Speaker 5: you know season with you know, from the medical side,
Speaker 5: from with on with Maps and you know, if if
Speaker 5: you really want to look at some of the great
Speaker 5: work that's going on with psilocybin research, with md m
Speaker 5: A research just treating you know, addiction and PTSD and
Speaker 5: all this stuff, go to Maps and see what they're doing.
Speaker 5: We're seeing great progress there, but again, you know, the
Speaker 5: FDA denies them from being you know, a treatment after
Speaker 5: even seeing you know, the results that we've seen of.
Speaker 2: Seeing people not having PTSD or AMIA requirements, not having
Speaker 2: to deal with depression.
Speaker 4: And it's it's it's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 5: So we're seeing that one step forward kind of two
Speaker 5: steps back, but they are taking we are taking steps
Speaker 5: in the fact that we had such a diverse array
Speaker 5: of people come on and talk about their own all.
Speaker 2: Walks yeah, of life, all different backgrounds, all different stories,
Speaker 2: all different.
Speaker 5: Paths, right exactly, all different paths, and you could genuinely
Speaker 5: hear their excitement and enthusiasm because these are people that
Speaker 5: went through struggles and they almost want it. It's like
Speaker 5: someone that's like, you know, got baptized just wants to scream.
Speaker 5: You know, it's like singing from the mountaintop that like, hey,
Speaker 5: other people that are hurting like me, like this could
Speaker 5: be a solution. And you can hear like the excitement
Speaker 5: and then also the the sadness from you know, someone
Speaker 5: like Brent who's thinking of other people that didn't get
Speaker 5: the chance to maybe do things, or you know, it's
Speaker 5: just all these It was just a really kind of rollercoaster.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was kind of a trip.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was definitely a trip. Yeah.
Speaker 2: In one also, Liz Karamus talking about CBD rain, yeah,
Speaker 2: and the inflammation being able to be decreased by some
Speaker 2: of these things, and yeah, man, all of that was interesting.
Speaker 5: You know, military people don't like to go out on
Speaker 5: a limb that often and kind of shout things. But
Speaker 5: the people that are leading this a lot are you know,
Speaker 5: not only former but active military members.
Speaker 4: When they reel, they can speak up.
Speaker 5: You know, Liz said it it's going to have to
Speaker 5: come from the officers and the officer class to kind
Speaker 5: of build that up. And I think it's something that's
Speaker 5: gonna need to occur, Like you can't deny some of
Speaker 5: these results at some point. And I just hope in
Speaker 5: the next you know, year, so there is some movement
Speaker 5: in you know a little bit at the federal level
Speaker 5: to allow for the VA to do a little bit
Speaker 5: more testing, a little bit more research, a little bit
Speaker 5: more conversations that still hasn't passed.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's these types of things, so.
Speaker 5: Solely but surely hopefully the research will kind of catch
Speaker 5: up to our institutions. It takes a while sometimes, you know,
Speaker 5: they're like the you know, setting their ways cross the
Speaker 5: old man.
Speaker 2: And then also, you know, is a lot of undoing.
Speaker 2: It's a lot of unlearning that people have to do
Speaker 2: because that's caused by the War on drug Yeah, they
Speaker 2: painted it in there's light and it's hard to you know,
Speaker 2: get get people to see it in another way.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and understanding that, you know, the skeptics aren't just
Speaker 5: folks that are just saying this because they don't like
Speaker 5: drugs or saying it's you know, it's people that dealt
Speaker 5: with addiction. You know, with doctor Brent Smith who said,
Speaker 5: you know, hey, it feels weird to me, like coming
Speaker 5: from a place of addiction to think that this can
Speaker 5: be helpful in that way when it's so And I
Speaker 5: get that, and you know, but he still said, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm open to these things. And I think that's again
Speaker 5: we just have to be honest and open. That's another
Speaker 5: thread line through this, just let's be honest about both
Speaker 5: sides of everything. And I'm you know, that was a
Speaker 5: big takeaway for me as well. With the therapeutists on
Speaker 5: psychedelics and things like that. Again, it's kind of this
Speaker 5: dominant that has to topple at the at the top,
Speaker 5: at the tippy top too, at the federal government to
Speaker 5: kind of let this go where we have these restrictions
Speaker 5: like in the tax code that now like people can't
Speaker 5: do you know, banking the way that they they're able to,
Speaker 5: and you know, to allow for cannabis industry to thrive,
Speaker 5: and you know, to have like research being stymied and
Speaker 5: not allow for you know, psilocybin or MDMA to be
Speaker 5: used as treatment you get into like you know, it
Speaker 5: just takes all these big haunches. Then that's when insurance come.
Speaker 5: You know, think about that, and we talked about that
Speaker 5: so much with like veterans they can get how much
Speaker 5: antidepressants and opi it's off of there, but they're not
Speaker 5: able to get this because it can't be insured right now.
Speaker 5: And so it's all these little things that hopefully will
Speaker 5: start to slide away. And that's that's my hope for
Speaker 5: the next year and five years. And yeah, we'll probably
Speaker 5: be on season.
Speaker 4: Thirty five drugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think we'll be closer because I know
Speaker 2: we often talk about it's one step forward, two steps back.
Speaker 3: What would you give this year?
Speaker 2: Would you give it a step forward or would you
Speaker 2: give it two back?
Speaker 5: I'd say it was I'll do a boxing analogy where
Speaker 5: I think it's one of those early rounds in a
Speaker 5: big match, and both everyone's kind of feeling each other. Okay,
Speaker 5: presidential election going.
Speaker 3: On, only so much you can do there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, when things get on the ballot with the presidential election,
Speaker 5: it warps who's kind of voting, who's not, how much
Speaker 5: attention those.
Speaker 4: Issues get there, Just keep voting, right.
Speaker 5: It just wasn't like a lot of stuff going on,
Speaker 5: and that kind of happens in transition. But I do
Speaker 5: think that fact that both parties have signaled at the
Speaker 5: top of their level. You know, President Trump came out
Speaker 5: and said he was going to vote for Amendment three
Speaker 5: in Florida, which was, you know, going to legalize cannabis there,
Speaker 5: and you know him and you know Vice President Vance
Speaker 5: have both set you know, it kind of comes from
Speaker 5: a place of we're throwing people in prison for something
Speaker 5: that other people can profit from and this piecemeal thing
Speaker 5: where you can go in one place another. I mean,
Speaker 5: those are the things that he's saying, and it's a
Speaker 5: kind of a noe duh, like it just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 5: And so, you know, whatever you think of either side,
Speaker 5: we're not trying to get publically here. It's just it's
Speaker 5: very promising to hear that it's just never been that way.
Speaker 5: And I think, you know, once you have a tipping
Speaker 5: point a lot of this stuff, it can it can
Speaker 5: start to tumble pretty quick.
Speaker 2: Party's looking at it in a similar fashion, not maybe
Speaker 2: the exact same view, but yeah, realizing and trying to
Speaker 2: correct the course that we're going.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And the other thing to remember is like, not all
Speaker 5: progress is always good progress, like we've seen, like you
Speaker 5: have to have these things set up, you have to
Speaker 5: be mindful of what all these causes and consequences can have,
Speaker 5: and so the job's not done. Don't turn a blind
Speaker 5: eye once you vote, like, understand what's happening in your community,
Speaker 5: what's going on, how are these licenses getting divvied out.
Speaker 4: All this type of stuff. There's just a lot lot.
Speaker 3: Lots of the handle.
Speaker 2: Okay, man, you know I got to come to you
Speaker 2: for the call to action? Was the play? Was the plan?
Speaker 2: If we're in a huddle, what do people need to do?
Speaker 3: Man? While you've got them listening.
Speaker 5: I think you know, sometimes we're just like, you know,
Speaker 5: call your local congressmen, and that's all well and good,
Speaker 5: but there are like I think, particularly with this issue,
Speaker 5: you know, if things don't feel like overwhelming on other things,
Speaker 5: because there obviously is policy stuff and you should and
Speaker 5: you should be educated on this, and a lot of
Speaker 5: stuff happens local, So your council meetings and all these
Speaker 5: those are things that really matter a lot as well,
Speaker 5: and so you should be mindful of what we need
Speaker 5: to do at the federal level. Demand these things, but
Speaker 5: really be honest and what's going on in your community
Speaker 5: and how that's operating. But even getting closer to it,
Speaker 5: like if you know your friend or family struggling with
Speaker 5: something or suffering, you know, talk to them about you know,
Speaker 5: some of this or share these experiences. Maybe it's like, hey,
Speaker 5: I know you like Shine Down, I know you like Brothers,
Speaker 5: I know you like Benny the Butch. Like listen to
Speaker 5: what they're saying or like something like that maybe this
Speaker 5: will help or some other information to give them, Like
Speaker 5: you can actually really mean a lot to like your
Speaker 5: small area and maybe you're influential on some folks around
Speaker 5: you that could look up to you and saying like oh, hey,
Speaker 5: this person's being you know, open and honest about their
Speaker 5: experiences or what they heard. It's it can really mean
Speaker 5: a lot. Like we saw that like it may have
Speaker 5: saved you know, John Osborne's friend's life, having that conversation.
Speaker 4: It done costs anything.
Speaker 5: So that's you know, it's always like these are the laws,
Speaker 5: these are the things, we've talked about them all year,
Speaker 5: but like that could have a profound impact just kind
Speaker 5: of having the discussions. And I know I am and
Speaker 5: I've been even with people that's a little uncomfortable, you know,
Speaker 5: with the old man, and.
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, that can always be cop.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: times people throw their hands up like what can I do?
Speaker 2: What can be done? And I think that's a very
Speaker 2: actionable thing. It really done is the people you're around,
Speaker 2: listening to them, offering them the resources that works for
Speaker 2: you are what you found out there that may be
Speaker 2: able to provide them insight. Not saying it's gonna be relief,
Speaker 2: not saying it's gonna be the answer, not gonna say
Speaker 2: that it's gonna work, but looking at stuff a different way,
Speaker 2: hearing it from somebody who's respected, hearing it from somebody
Speaker 2: who's in a field where they experience the very thing
Speaker 2: that you're going through. That all can help. Man, So
Speaker 2: be the change you know that you want to.
Speaker 3: See and just.
Speaker 2: When it does, like I said before, when it doesn't
Speaker 2: cost nothing that yeah, you know what I'm saying, do
Speaker 2: that if this person, if listening to this person is
Speaker 2: going to be beneficial to them, if you got the time, why.
Speaker 3: Would you not do that?
Speaker 4: Exactly?
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know these really are They're not even like
Speaker 5: criminal justice issues. This is about like people's health. These
Speaker 5: are like the issues that people pain, pain, health, mental health. Yeah,
Speaker 5: just dealing with trauma and suffering. I mean, these are
Speaker 5: the things that we talk about all day, every day,
Speaker 5: and all we're saying is these are potential paths to
Speaker 5: help with these types of things to have a better
Speaker 5: health and overall well being. Because at the end of
Speaker 5: the day, what we're doing right now, I don't think
Speaker 5: anyone can say this is working. So let's just like
Speaker 5: take a step back, cause I feel like a lot
Speaker 5: of the time, the fighting the war on drugs, you're
Speaker 5: on the defense of quite a bit, and so it
Speaker 5: is kind of like flipping around, what are we defending.
Speaker 5: More people are homeless and suffering from substance abuse disorders,
Speaker 5: then more than ever, we're more people are dying from
Speaker 5: overdose than ever. Drugs are cheaper, and stronger than ever.
Speaker 5: What are you defending right now? At the very least,
Speaker 5: can we have conversations about some of these other things
Speaker 5: that are going on. Suicide race for veterans are skyrocketing,
Speaker 5: Like can we have a conversation?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: That's all we're saying.
Speaker 2: Don't talk about what's convenient to your point, Yes, be
Speaker 2: honest and talk about these things in their totality exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's about giving those options and not making it
Speaker 5: some risky proposition to am I being a criminal or
Speaker 5: being something weird or trying to help myself?
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people struggle with that.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think we really hammered
Speaker 2: home on this season was the best people to talk
Speaker 2: about these situations are the people that's closest to us, right,
Speaker 2: And I mean we've got countless examples of that this season.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: John Osborne, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Stopping his friend from a planned suicide, just saying, hey, man,
Speaker 2: maybe try this.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Brent Smith, his manager, stepping in at a time where
Speaker 2: you know, he could have been a sleazy manager, but
Speaker 2: he saw something and was like, no, let's do this,
Speaker 2: Let's handle this the right way. And so it's a
Speaker 2: concerted effort. It's a community effort. You have to be
Speaker 2: there for your people, and your people have to be
Speaker 2: there for you. And that's the only way I think
Speaker 2: this works. I think that's how we're supposed to live
Speaker 2: as a society. I agree, that's how we maximize living
Speaker 2: in this crazy world we live in.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and if you want to be active on the
Speaker 5: policy side and really get informed, I mean, the biggest
Speaker 5: dominoes are still at the federal level, and until they
Speaker 5: speak on this and kind of allow for you know,
Speaker 5: this enterprise to continue and to understand it's going to
Speaker 5: continue to be this way, and so descheduling up there,
Speaker 5: allowing for banks to be allowed to you know, work
Speaker 5: with the industry and doing all these things, that's what
Speaker 5: it's going to take. Until then, you're always going to
Speaker 5: have that maybe we're about to do something elide because
Speaker 5: technically you are know what your representative's thoughts are, like
Speaker 5: email them, call them, like they do respond and like
Speaker 5: I've worked in offices when a lot of people ask
Speaker 5: about something, they have to say so you yeah, and
Speaker 5: so it really does matter, and that's what it's going
Speaker 5: to take to really kind of see all these things,
Speaker 5: you know, come to fruition. And so there's a lot
Speaker 5: of work still at the local and state, but if
Speaker 5: you get that one tipping point to start to come down,
Speaker 5: it'd be incredibly impactful and we would see a lot
Speaker 5: of positive benefits and a lot of the complications that
Speaker 5: we see with this kind of piecemeal system. Kind of
Speaker 5: go away and share those stories.
Speaker 3: Use this podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, use your personal experience if you got it, But
Speaker 2: if you don't, you got a resource right here with.
Speaker 5: Us, because stories matter, and it brings a face to
Speaker 5: it when you're just kind of saying, you know, hey,
Speaker 5: these are the statistics and all these things.
Speaker 4: You know, it makes it real. It really does.
Speaker 2: Sometimes the language we use it just dehumanizes people and
Speaker 2: it quantifies them. It makes them a thing and not
Speaker 2: a person, and it's hard to separate the person from
Speaker 2: a person.
Speaker 4: Story agreed.
Speaker 2: Anybody that's skeptical or not sure where it's going. If
Speaker 2: you didn't if you can't look at some of these
Speaker 2: studies with psilocybin and what they're doing with PTSD and veterans,
Speaker 2: if you can't look at lizit story about the brain
Speaker 2: decreasing inflammation, if you can't listen to John Osborne talk
Speaker 2: about the neuroplasticity and if I think that's the biggest
Speaker 2: takeaway is these things are working for some people. You know,
Speaker 2: these things are beneficial to some people. So what knowledge
Speaker 2: do you have that's making you push back against the
Speaker 2: information that's out there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just be a little bit more understanding of other
Speaker 5: people's stories and how that they came to it, and
Speaker 5: not think that it's some excuse just to get high.
Speaker 5: It's actually medicine is actually trying to help other people.
Speaker 5: So even if you're not going to go down a
Speaker 5: path of this or even look at it, just be
Speaker 5: more ethetic and understanding of other people's you know, successes
Speaker 5: or benefits that they've had from some things that we
Speaker 5: talked about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we talked to a lot of skeptics that kind.
Speaker 5: Of when yeah and experiment and did something else or
Speaker 5: have been more open about it. And I think that's
Speaker 5: really important to show that you.
Speaker 2: Got to be hoping, Hey, this has been great. Yeah,
Speaker 2: great season. I hope you all, you know, benefited from this.
Speaker 2: I hope these stories, you know, allow you to make
Speaker 2: an impact on the people that you care about, the
Speaker 2: people around you.
Speaker 5: We appreciated season two. Thank you all again for listening.
Speaker 5: I'm Greg Laude.
Speaker 2: And I'm Clayton English and this has been The War
Speaker 2: on Drugs podcast Season two, Take.
Speaker 1: Care the War on Drugs is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal
Speaker 1: Company Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their
Speaker 1: teams with proven change makers to co create solutions to
Speaker 1: some of the most pressing issues in our country, including
Speaker 1: criminal justice, reform, addiction, recover mental health, education, free speech,
Speaker 1: and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Standogether
Speaker 1: Music dot org. Be sure to follow Lava for Good
Speaker 1: on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Lava for Good. You
Speaker 1: can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at Clayton English,
Speaker 1: and you can follow Greig Laude on Instagram and on
Speaker 1: X at Greg Latt. Executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,
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