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Speaker 2: Seems to be a daily drop of news on the
Speaker 2: world of artificial intelligence. A lot going on Alphabet's Google
Speaker 2: Io Annual Developers Conference that's happening today. It's expected to
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of different AI features for its
Speaker 2: search business and broader ecosystem. This event coming one day
Speaker 2: after a similar one from open ai, where it launched
Speaker 2: a faster and cheaper version of its chat GPT model.
Speaker 2: So let's get to our tracker of all things artificial intelligence,
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News AI reporter Rachel Metz. We caught up with
Speaker 2: her at last weeks Bloomberg Technology Summer. Got a great
Speaker 2: rundown on all things AI. But as we said, everything's
Speaker 2: happening or something new every day. It feels like she's
Speaker 2: with us from San Francisco. All right, Rachel, let's start
Speaker 2: with what we got from open Ai faster, cheaper model.
Speaker 2: What's different from the version that everybody's been talking about
Speaker 2: for the last year and a half.
Speaker 3: Hello, Yeah, so we have a GPT for O. The
Speaker 3: O in opening I speak stands for omnimodel, and basically
Speaker 3: what that means is they used to take a bunch
Speaker 3: of models that could do different things and chain them together,
Speaker 3: and now what they're going to be doing is they're
Speaker 3: sort of pushing it all into one AI model, and
Speaker 3: that's part of why they say they're able to make
Speaker 3: it faster, so they can do things like a much
Speaker 3: more close to real time audio interaction, which makes it
Speaker 3: feel more lifelike. Like if you're talking to the app
Speaker 3: right now and you want it to talk back to you,
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to wait like there's you know, like
Speaker 3: there's some very clear latency and then it will respond
Speaker 3: in one of the several voices that has in there
Speaker 3: with this upcoming voice feature, it's very snappy from what
Speaker 3: they demonstrated, like almost instantaneous, as though I were talking
Speaker 3: to another person.
Speaker 2: All right, So there's that going on, I thought. I also,
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting, you know CHATGBT, right, it's kind
Speaker 2: of the gold standard. I feel like everything is kind
Speaker 2: of measured off of that.
Speaker 4: Is that fair?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that it is fair in that
Speaker 3: people seem to be using it a lot. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think the figure that we have was like, what
Speaker 3: is it, like one hundred million users or one hundred
Speaker 3: something like that. People have used it. It's quite popular,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I think people think about it as sort
Speaker 3: of a gold standard in terms of what one can
Speaker 3: do right now, what a state of the art and
Speaker 3: replicable with the chatbot. So yeah, I think that's kind
Speaker 3: of a fair barometer.
Speaker 5: So here's the question I have relative to the Google statement.
Speaker 5: You know, I've been using Google literally since late nineties,
Speaker 5: two thousand something like that. Yeah, and the concept of
Speaker 5: organizing the world's information. They always did that really well
Speaker 5: till about I don't know, five years ago, and suddenly
Speaker 5: search just became festooned with sponsored answers and ads and
Speaker 5: then Google Zone products and sometimes you have to go
Speaker 5: like three or four screens down to actually find a
Speaker 5: search result. And my personal search seems to be less
Speaker 5: on Google and more on products like Perplexity, which uses
Speaker 5: either the claud or the Shannon or a couple of
Speaker 5: different engine AI engines and I find the answers I
Speaker 5: get are so much better and the list of sources
Speaker 5: so much better than fighting on Perplexity then fighting through
Speaker 5: the Google homepage. I'm wondering how much of this AI
Speaker 5: built into the search bar is a recognition of Google
Speaker 5: Search has really become, you know, fairly mediocre compared to
Speaker 5: being the best there was.
Speaker 4: Well, Rachel, come on in on that.
Speaker 2: And I'm curious about, you know, at this developer conference event,
Speaker 2: you know, what are we learning in terms of the
Speaker 2: a THEAAR front that might help maybe change Parry's view
Speaker 2: when it comes to Google and alphabet.
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, I think I think you're right about Perplexity.
Speaker 3: A lot of people have been drawn to it. It
Speaker 3: seems to be combining a lot of things in a
Speaker 3: really smart way. When I use it, I'm struck by
Speaker 3: how well it puts things together, and it has some
Speaker 3: good like follow up questions I might want to ask
Speaker 3: things like that. I'm insights its sources. So like from
Speaker 3: my reporting, we know that Opening Eye is working on
Speaker 3: its own search project which may be similar to Perplexity.
Speaker 3: And we saw this morning that Google said it's going
Speaker 3: to it's going to make the sort of like AI
Speaker 3: assisted answers that right now are sort of an optional thing.
Speaker 3: It's going to make those a more integrated part of
Speaker 3: its search results. So if that works for you, and
Speaker 3: we'll probably have to see over time, that could make
Speaker 3: it so you feel better about the results that you're getting.
Speaker 3: But I guess for me personally, I'm still kind of
Speaker 3: wary of trusting anything that's AI assisted unless I check
Speaker 3: with the soul or set it. Perplexity obviously is really
Speaker 3: good for that, So I think it's going to take
Speaker 3: some time still for us to figure out what works
Speaker 3: best and how we should put these tools together. And
Speaker 3: you know, maybe you'll use Google for certain things, Perplexity
Speaker 3: for other things, Opening Eye for yet other things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you always have to double check that hallucinations are
Speaker 5: not part of your answer. And that is the technical
Speaker 5: term for when AI either find something wrong on the
Speaker 5: Internet or just kind of spitballs and makes it up
Speaker 5: things that are wildly wrong. A couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 5: I interviewed Bill Dudley of the New York Fed and
Speaker 5: I was kind of surprised to learn from AI that
Speaker 5: he was an NFL fullback in the nineteen forties, especially
Speaker 5: because he wasn't born until then.
Speaker 2: Ye, So listen, Rachel just got the same name, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: the same name.
Speaker 3: Waits those I mean, there's multiple Rachel messas out there,
Speaker 3: and AI sometimes will conflate us. I have multiple jobs
Speaker 3: according to AI that I've never had. You know, things
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 5: You would think intelligence would say, oh, this was before
Speaker 5: he was born. Right, Maybe it's less intelligent than we're
Speaker 5: giving you credit. Although Jim O'Shaughnessy said AI today is
Speaker 5: the worst it'll ever be. It's only getting better every day.
Speaker 2: Listen, the more data you put in, right, Rachel just
Speaker 2: got twenty seconds, the better it's going to become.
Speaker 3: We assume that's what people have been saying, but I
Speaker 3: don't know. I think we may we've been seeing those
Speaker 3: kinds of results. That is true, but we'll see over
Speaker 3: the next few years if more compute, more data really
Speaker 3: does lead to better AI.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's only going to be better as good as
Speaker 2: I guess the data is.
Speaker 4: Rachel.
Speaker 2: I know a lot going on, and we appreciate you
Speaker 2: jumping in. Bloomberg News AI reporter Rachel met.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 4: We'll talk about betterans on Wall Street.
Speaker 2: We often mean individuals who have worked there a long time,
Speaker 2: seen lots of market cycles.
Speaker 4: People like Barry have lots.
Speaker 2: Of experience investing in trading and global financial markets. But
Speaker 2: it is also about the growing relationship between Wall Street
Speaker 2: firms and US military veterans who, after serving their country,
Speaker 2: find a second chapter working at financial firms around the country.
Speaker 2: And that includes at Wells Fargo, which last year hired
Speaker 2: over eleven hundred veterans, with four percent of Wells Fargo
Speaker 2: employees self identifying as a veteran. Two members of its
Speaker 2: board of directors are US veterans. Bloomberg, by the way,
Speaker 2: hosting today the Wells Fargo Military Appreciation Event with more.
Speaker 2: We welcome John Weiss, He's co CEO of Wells Fargo
Speaker 2: Corporate and Investment Bank, joining us here in studio as
Speaker 2: the daughter of a VET cousins brother, I salute you,
Speaker 2: and I think it's really important that we remember those
Speaker 2: who serve our country, and I want to talk about
Speaker 2: that in a moment your father, Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 2: He and his brothers World War two, all of them
Speaker 2: and all came home, which was pretty remarkable. I want
Speaker 2: to ask you, though, because you have such a great
Speaker 2: lens on the world, and I think we're at this
Speaker 2: interesting juncture in terms of trying to figure out the
Speaker 2: way forward, the business environment, the macro environment, the deal environment.
Speaker 2: How would you describe kind of where we are.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me,
Speaker 6: and we're delighted to be collaborating with Bloomberg on this
Speaker 6: important topic of veterans. As to the macro picture, you know,
Speaker 6: it's I guess a unique time. I would say that
Speaker 6: the US economy is quite resilient, and you know, it's
Speaker 6: a good place to be headquartered. You know, every new
Speaker 6: piece of economic information sends us darting in one direction
Speaker 6: or another. And we've got CPI tomorrow, and the PPI
Speaker 6: that came out this morning is encouraging from a standpoint
Speaker 6: of as the market digested it, at least encouraging from
Speaker 6: the standpoint of maybe a somewhat better inflation picture. But
Speaker 6: CPI is the important data point for this week, so
Speaker 6: we'll see how that comes out tomorrow. Deal activity business
Speaker 6: activity actually quite good, and I would say there's a
Speaker 6: lot of pent up demands, certainly a lot of private
Speaker 6: equity capital out.
Speaker 4: There looking to make those exits.
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, look at well on the one hand looking
Speaker 6: to make exits and on the other hand looking to
Speaker 6: make investments. So both sides of the deal are covered there.
Speaker 6: And I would say strategics are getting a little bit
Speaker 6: more impatient about pursuing their own strategic goals. So I
Speaker 6: feel things are reasonably stable right now, as stable as
Speaker 6: you could say they could be, given that we've got
Speaker 6: a war going on in the Middle East, a war
Speaker 6: going on in Europe, and a lot of uncertainty around
Speaker 6: the US election. So given all those things, it's remarkable
Speaker 6: how well the economy and the market seem to be
Speaker 6: digesting it all.
Speaker 5: So let's use those two wars as a leaping off
Speaker 5: point to discuss the work that you guys are doing
Speaker 5: with the veterans. In my office, my CFO used to
Speaker 5: be a tank commander in Afghanistan. Our head traders sat
Speaker 5: in the back of easy two Hawkeyes directing all the
Speaker 5: traffic over Iraq during that war. What led And by
Speaker 5: the way, they're fantastic and there are secret weapons? What
Speaker 5: led Wells Fargo down the path to Hey, we really
Speaker 5: want to recruit from this pool of people. How did
Speaker 5: you discover what an amazing talent pool instead of skills
Speaker 5: exists there.
Speaker 6: Well, the first thing I would say is, I don't
Speaker 6: think we're completely unique in this area. I think Wall
Speaker 6: Street in general has been very supportive of veterans.
Speaker 2: We're welckoming.
Speaker 6: So that's the first thing. The second thing is, look,
Speaker 6: we're always looking for talent, and when you are looking,
Speaker 6: as we are in our industry for people that perform
Speaker 6: well under pressure, that would naturally bring you to this
Speaker 6: population of people who have learned to you know, to
Speaker 6: serve and to execute under pressure. And then there's of course.
Speaker 4: The is a trait you recognize, right John, in terms.
Speaker 5: Of just get it done, Like whatever we have to do,
Speaker 5: just get it done. I love that attitude.
Speaker 6: It's absolutely the case. And then there's the last thing,
Speaker 6: which is, of course we're supportive for social reasons. You know,
Speaker 6: these are people that in some cases gave them all,
Speaker 6: but their friends certainly did, and they served their country,
Speaker 6: and a part of our responsibility is to help them
Speaker 6: transition back into society.
Speaker 2: Because it's interesting because I feel like, and I don't
Speaker 2: want to be, you know, so critical of the government,
Speaker 2: but I just feel like people come home and then
Speaker 2: they don't have homes, they don't have jobs. You guys
Speaker 2: actually get into some of the basic need. It's about
Speaker 2: providing jobs, but it's providing things like homes.
Speaker 6: So, but let's start with jobs within the corporate and
Speaker 6: investment bank. You mentioned that we've hired as a company
Speaker 6: eleven hundred veterans this year. That's a pretty good pace.
Speaker 6: Can probably do more on the corporate and investment side.
Speaker 6: We have various programs that allow us to bring veterans
Speaker 6: on board for summer associate roles for more permanent assignments.
Speaker 6: We're working with some of our clients to recognize the
Speaker 6: talent of their vets and give them opportunities to continue.
Speaker 2: That's what I think is interesting when we talk about diversity, inclusion, equality,
Speaker 2: it's the supply chain, the pipeline. It's not just what
Speaker 2: you do at your company, but right kind.
Speaker 6: Of it's working with your clients. We work with a
Speaker 6: lot of veteran owned broker dealers, for example, and we
Speaker 6: bring them into deals and we try to help train
Speaker 6: their people in products and services that we provide that
Speaker 6: maybe they don't have the same depth.
Speaker 5: Then that's really quite fascinating, especially when you think about
Speaker 5: the problems we've seen in via hospitals and things. Getting
Speaker 5: people on your payroll with your healthcare has to be
Speaker 5: a huge life upgrade for them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, certainly, I mean career matters right to overall livelihood.
Speaker 6: But getting back to the question the carol last a
Speaker 6: minute ago, so so yes, the company very specifically has
Speaker 6: focused on the veteran population as an area for focus,
Speaker 6: and that that focus takes you know, comes in different ways.
Speaker 6: We've on an annual basis given donated new cars free
Speaker 6: of financing to veterans. We've donated something in the neighborhood
Speaker 6: of four hundred homes over the last ten years. This
Speaker 6: is providing housing free to veterans, and we don't look
Speaker 6: at it as a handout. We look at this is
Speaker 6: often used phrase, we look at it as a hand
Speaker 6: up because what they really need is some assistance and
Speaker 6: they will pay that back already have to society, so
Speaker 6: we feel really good about it. We also give a
Speaker 6: lot of funding out of our foundation to various veteran causes.
Speaker 2: I always think about the audience who's listening, And I
Speaker 2: think again, we you know, have you know, segments of
Speaker 2: our society and population that are forgotten, including the vets.
Speaker 2: You know, is there a message that you think more
Speaker 2: widely that we should all think about as we go
Speaker 2: about our business on a daily basis.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's it's not going to be a new
Speaker 6: idea to people, but we all live our lives in
Speaker 6: a very safe place, and it's because there are people
Speaker 6: out there protecting us, whether those are first responders here
Speaker 6: in you know, domestic US or members of the military
Speaker 6: serving outside the US. So I guess the messages we
Speaker 6: are all in this together and we all have to
Speaker 6: bear our share of the responsibility.
Speaker 2: How do you think about the future in terms of
Speaker 2: what Wells Fargo wants to do next?
Speaker 1: We want to do next?
Speaker 4: Is it just more and just continue to build it
Speaker 4: out more?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Better?
Speaker 6: Absolutely, you know we're focused as a company on running
Speaker 6: the bank better, serving our clients better, managing risk better,
Speaker 6: and just being a better run organization overall.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Really just really fascinating, and I do think about it.
Speaker 2: I think unless you've maybe if if you've had somebody
Speaker 2: in your life like you say, you've got people working
Speaker 2: or I've got it. Certainly my family many members, several
Speaker 2: have done tours in the Middle East, and I do
Speaker 2: think there's something about this environment right now where we're
Speaker 2: very sensitive to sending American soldiers over to some extent.
Speaker 2: But it's just the role the United States States plays
Speaker 2: globally in kind of protecting the world. Like you just
Speaker 2: have to think about it, and we take it for granted.
Speaker 5: You know, after twenty years of war in the Middle East,
Speaker 5: I think the country kind of has gotten fatigued, and
Speaker 5: it's easy to forget about the people coming home who
Speaker 5: then have to just turn their life up right down
Speaker 5: to normalize things. We've been a little negligent paying attention
Speaker 5: to them. I'm glad to hear you guys are moving
Speaker 5: in this direction, and I've been in this direction for
Speaker 5: quite some time well.
Speaker 6: As a child of the sixties, all right, we can't
Speaker 6: forget some of the lessons of the sixties, and one
Speaker 6: of them was certainly welcoming the veteran back after the war,
Speaker 6: which we did not as well as we should have
Speaker 6: in the sixties. We certainly did, I think well post
Speaker 6: World War Two, and hopefully we're doing a better job today.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you bring it because I think about
Speaker 2: when my dad and his brothers came home and the
Speaker 2: GI bill and going to school and just it was
Speaker 2: such a welcoming back, if you will, and such a
Speaker 2: support system, and that it's just kind of amazing to
Speaker 2: see kind of where it's What do you think it
Speaker 2: is about the financial community, as you said, not just
Speaker 2: well as Fargo, but we talk about it a lot
Speaker 2: here at Bloomberg in terms of the financial community and
Speaker 2: their support of veterans in particular.
Speaker 4: What do you think it is about that?
Speaker 6: I think I don't know. Maybe part of it is
Speaker 6: the focus of New York City and understanding what happens
Speaker 6: when things do go wrong, which you know, those of
Speaker 6: us who live through nine to eleven certainly remember. But
Speaker 6: you know, it's also it's a responsible It's a part
Speaker 6: of society that wants to prove its sense of responsibility.
Speaker 6: I think I think Wall Street really does care about
Speaker 6: its image, and it cares, you know, in a real
Speaker 6: way about carrying its share of responsibility.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and when you look at the veterans, these are
Speaker 5: people who understand risk, They understand working within a team
Speaker 5: and leadership, and the parallels are just all there. If
Speaker 5: you want someone who has your back, whether you're in
Speaker 5: the field or on a desk, it's hard to do
Speaker 5: better than military veterans.
Speaker 4: It just makes a lot of sense. John.
Speaker 2: Great to get catch up with you and just kind
Speaker 2: of hear about the work you guys are doing. Looking
Speaker 2: forward to hearing more. I know we're going to have
Speaker 2: another member of your team a little bit later on Bloomberg,
Speaker 2: so looking forward to it.
Speaker 6: You'll be hearing from Mike Riley, who runs or co
Speaker 6: heads our market's division, who is a vet Submarine Navy
Speaker 6: right Navy X Submarine commander. Wow, you talk about somebody
Speaker 6: you want to have, you know, having your back.
Speaker 4: Mike's the guy, John, Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: Thank you, John Wise.
Speaker 2: He's co CEO of Welsfargo Corporate and Investment Bank.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live
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Speaker 2: I want this empty stade on the ball of broken dreams.
Speaker 2: All right, folks, sleep, sit down, grab something to drink.
Speaker 2: Because this is a story of broken dreams. It's also
Speaker 2: a story that's among our most read on the Bloomberg today.
Speaker 2: It's a story about I Am Academy, also known as
Speaker 2: the Harvard of Trading, that grew from a small New
Speaker 2: York operation into a global phenomenon during the pandemic by
Speaker 2: selling the promise that it could teach anyone, particularly teens
Speaker 2: and twenty somethings, how to become a savvy retail investors
Speaker 2: for a fee. Of course, it promised a lot, and
Speaker 2: many lost a lot. We know we not wanted to
Speaker 2: know more about this story, so with us as Bloomberg
Speaker 2: News Personal Finance reporter Alice Cantor. She's joining us from London,
Speaker 2: where we know it's a little bit later. So Alice,
Speaker 2: we so appreciate you hanging around to talk with us.
Speaker 2: This story, by the way, to be featured in the
Speaker 2: forthcoming issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine. You can read it
Speaker 2: now on the Bloomberg and also find it at Bloomberg
Speaker 2: dot com slash BusinessWeek. First of all, a story like this, Alice,
Speaker 2: how did you first come across it?
Speaker 3: Hi?
Speaker 7: Carol, Well, first, thanks for having me on. Yeah, so
Speaker 7: I it was in the midst of the pandemic actually,
Speaker 7: and I was looking at stories around financial crimes in
Speaker 7: France because at the time I was in Paris, and
Speaker 7: I saw this small news website that did an investigation
Speaker 7: about iam Academy in France, and it was about all
Speaker 7: these teenagers who were getting really excited in the pandemic
Speaker 7: about making money from memes, talks and bitcoin. I'm sure
Speaker 7: you're familiar with that, and they had come across iam Academy,
Speaker 7: this company that promised them that within a few months
Speaker 7: they could really become multimillionaires. They could earn a passive
Speaker 7: income if they just knew the right strategy to trade online.
Speaker 7: You know, they this company had the recipe for them.
Speaker 7: So yeah, I started digging into it and found out
Speaker 7: that France was just one of the many, many countries
Speaker 7: that this New York based company had expanded in and
Speaker 7: was making a lot of victims.
Speaker 2: Essentially, Well, I want I want to get into the
Speaker 2: size and scope in terms of how many got impacted.
Speaker 4: But tell me, like how it works.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've kind of read through here, so I
Speaker 2: have an idea, But tell our world.
Speaker 4: How this company worked.
Speaker 2: How it said, Okay, you're going to make money, and
Speaker 2: you know what was in in terms of becoming a
Speaker 2: member and what you had to kind of give across.
Speaker 4: Could you have to pay a fee right to be
Speaker 4: a part of this.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So initially it worked like any subscription to an
Speaker 7: online product. It's like an online educational platform. So you
Speaker 7: paid two hundred and fifty dollars to join, and then
Speaker 7: you'd have to pay two hundred and fifty dollars every
Speaker 7: month to keep having access to this online platform. And
Speaker 7: on the platform you'd get sort of pre recorded videos
Speaker 7: of I am so called I AM educators that would
Speaker 7: teach you the basics of markets. You know, what, how
Speaker 7: do you make a stop loss, how do you figure
Speaker 7: out a difference in percentage points? And how do you
Speaker 7: take advantage of them? And then they also said, well
Speaker 7: they have this amazing algorithm that charts prices of currencies
Speaker 7: and stocks and any financial product, and this algorithm can
Speaker 7: sort of tell you when a price is going to
Speaker 7: go up or going to go down. And so if
Speaker 7: you just pay the subscription, you'll have access to all
Speaker 7: that information and you can really quite quickly earn money
Speaker 7: by using that trading advice and learning how to read
Speaker 7: those graphs.
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of folks in the financial
Speaker 2: community would be like, wait a minute, like what is
Speaker 2: this algorithm? And it almost sounds too good to be true?
Speaker 2: Tell us about that. They targeted really a younger generation.
Speaker 2: How did they do that? I mean, it sounds like,
Speaker 2: you know, I was looking through it, you know, it
Speaker 2: almost sounds like there were influencers out there about like,
Speaker 2: look at all the money you can you can make here.
Speaker 7: Absolutely so, at the end of the day, the software
Speaker 7: that they promoted, the algorithm doesn't work. It's very basic,
Speaker 7: it's not really predictive. But they really lured people in
Speaker 7: through the lifestyle that that you could have once you
Speaker 7: get those millions. And they did that on social media
Speaker 7: and essentially the CEO of the company hired these really muscular,
Speaker 7: energetic salesmen that went on Instagram and showed their lives
Speaker 7: on a Dubai yacht or at a five star villa
Speaker 7: in Italy saying, look, I'm this rich, you know, I'm
Speaker 7: you want to be like me, Well, why don't you
Speaker 7: just join? I am? And this is the recipe for
Speaker 7: success eventually, So that's really how they attracted people that way.
Speaker 4: Who's behind it all?
Speaker 2: Tell us a bit about the company's CEO and how
Speaker 2: he did in all of this.
Speaker 7: Yes, so, Chris Terry is a man who was born
Speaker 7: in the Bronx and he started working construction. He had
Speaker 7: apparently the construction company had ties to a mob family
Speaker 7: and he had to pay a fine. He was like
Speaker 7: implicated in a criminal conspiracy. So that's where he started,
Speaker 7: and he likes to mention his mob background quite often.
Speaker 7: But then he went on to Amway and was a
Speaker 7: salesman's for another multi level marketing company. And then after
Speaker 7: that he tried to build a reputation of himself as
Speaker 7: a trader, saying he was managing hedge funds and he
Speaker 7: knew all about financial markets. But really he was never
Speaker 7: a financial broker. He has no financial real accreditation from
Speaker 7: any real US institution, and he's made very well for himself,
Speaker 7: so he's definitely a multi millionaire. I AM at its
Speaker 7: height in the pandemic was selling the equivalent of five
Speaker 7: hundred to six hundred million dollars in subscriptions for the year.
Speaker 7: And he flies around in his private jet and has
Speaker 7: a bunch of condos around the World in Dubai in
Speaker 7: Las Vegas in New York. So he's making a lot
Speaker 7: of money from all this.
Speaker 2: Tell us about I mean, so he made a lot
Speaker 2: of money, But tell us about some of the individuals
Speaker 2: who paid, who got a part of the platform, did
Speaker 2: some of the trading.
Speaker 4: Some of these young.
Speaker 2: Individuals some really sad stories in terms of what happened
Speaker 2: to them.
Speaker 4: They lost a lot.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so people would come in thinking I'm going to
Speaker 7: learn all about retail trading, make a lot of money,
Speaker 7: And what happens is not only do they pay the subscription,
Speaker 7: but often they start trading and kind of gambling their
Speaker 7: money away using strategies that don't work so pretty quickly
Speaker 7: they'll have a lot of losses. But what I am
Speaker 7: educators will tell them then is, well, there's this other
Speaker 7: side of the business. You can earn a commission if
Speaker 7: you sell subscriptions to other members, and so that's the
Speaker 7: multi level marketing aspect of it. And so where it
Speaker 7: gets a bit tricky and where people feel like they
Speaker 7: can't leave the company and they end up losing way
Speaker 7: more than just like a regular financial service, is that
Speaker 7: these teenagers end up really kind of being gas lit
Speaker 7: and a little bit sort of brainwashed into believing that,
Speaker 7: you know, it's their life's purpose to be in this company.
Speaker 7: They have to keep trying to recruit, they have to
Speaker 7: keep bringing in more people. If they're failing, it's their fault.
Speaker 7: So there's this whole strategy to keep people involved, to
Speaker 7: keep people selling more subscriptions to others, even when they
Speaker 7: realize the trading lessons are really basic and not helpful
Speaker 7: at all.
Speaker 2: It does sound like, and I know you get into this,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's prime for regulators. It feels like to
Speaker 2: take a look Alice, where are be on that front
Speaker 2: because it sounds like this, you know, has to be
Speaker 2: on their radar.
Speaker 7: Absolutely so, I mean across Europe, a bunch of investigations
Speaker 7: are open at the moment, but nothing has really has
Speaker 7: really happened so far. And then the biggest investigation that's
Speaker 7: ongoing right now is by the FDC in the US
Speaker 7: that is looking at iam Academy. They're reviewing complaints, they're
Speaker 7: talking to the CEO, and well it looks like there
Speaker 7: might there might be in discussions to kind of try
Speaker 7: to put an end to this company's activities. But to
Speaker 7: be honest with you, Carol, there's not that many regulations
Speaker 7: around multi level marketing companies or these kinds of financial
Speaker 7: education platforms, so they might just go on. They might
Speaker 7: just like filter through all these regulations that come come
Speaker 7: kind of they might pay a fine and just and
Speaker 7: just get on with their business.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do wonder on something like this.
Speaker 2: I mean, is it kind of eyes wide open if
Speaker 2: you're gonna pay money, like you have to kind of
Speaker 2: know what you're getting into, or is it a case
Speaker 2: of is there a way of proving And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying there is, but you know, fraud of some sort
Speaker 2: in promising an algorithm that's going to kind of do everything,
Speaker 2: or do we all just kind of know that maybe
Speaker 2: if it sounds too good to be true, it's not
Speaker 2: going to be true.
Speaker 7: Well, yes, they can be liable for making false income claims.
Speaker 7: So early on they would have people on Instagram posting
Speaker 7: like pictures of their rolexes and bills and saying, you know,
Speaker 7: I make ten grand a month in passive earning and
Speaker 7: passive income. So those kinds of figures can really put
Speaker 7: the company in difficulty because you're not allowed to make
Speaker 7: these claims unless you can back them up. And in
Speaker 7: this case they can't. So that's one area that's problematic.
Speaker 7: The other one is that they do They say they
Speaker 7: don't give financial advice, but really they kind of do,
Speaker 7: and they almost trade for the people that are part
Speaker 7: of the company. It's kind of tricky, but they usually
Speaker 7: just right like tell them which brokers to go with.
Speaker 7: They used to mirror trades automatically, so just like copy
Speaker 7: and paste trades from traders and give it Chalice with
Speaker 7: the members.
Speaker 2: I have to ask, you only got about thirty seconds,
Speaker 2: so just quickly. Company is still active, Yes.
Speaker 7: It is still active. I was just at a conference
Speaker 7: there in Budapest that they had a huge company rally
Speaker 7: a few months ago, So you're still active and doing well.
Speaker 2: I got to say, you paint such incredible pictures in
Speaker 2: this story. I feel like it's like a mini documentary
Speaker 2: just waiting to happen. But it sounds like the story
Speaker 2: still to be played out here, so we'll continue to
Speaker 2: follow any updates. I'm so glad we could get some
Speaker 2: time with you to kind of spell it out for us.
Speaker 2: As we said, it's among the most read stories on
Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Today. Alice Kanter, she's a Bloomberg News personal
Speaker 2: finance reporter joining us from London and as we said,
Speaker 2: among the.
Speaker 4: Most read and you could check it out. It is
Speaker 4: also going.
Speaker 2: To be in the new issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek that's
Speaker 2: coming out later on this week, and it's also already
Speaker 2: on the Bloomberg. Coming up next, we talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about the workspace freelance workers.
Speaker 4: There are a lot out there.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Easter Listen
Speaker 1: on Apple car Play and ed Brout Auto with a
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business app, or watching us Live on YouTube.
Speaker 4: Two headlines.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to mention in the last twenty four
Speaker 2: hours or so Converse cutting jobs as part of parent
Speaker 2: Nike's cost savings plan, Walmart acting hundreds of corporate jobs
Speaker 2: and asking most remote workers to return to offices, according
Speaker 2: to a person familiar with the matter, and fetch your J.
Speaker 2: Powell earlier today, weighing in from Amsterdam in a moderated conversation,
Speaker 2: saying there are signs of gradual cooling and rebalancing the
Speaker 2: US labor market, and yet at the same time, how
Speaker 2: the US is still experiencing labor shortage in many industries.
Speaker 2: All right, so we wanted to talk a little bit
Speaker 2: more about what's going on in the workforce. So we
Speaker 2: welcome back Kelly Monahan. She's managing director with the Employment
Speaker 2: Upwork Research Institute, which is a division of the publicly
Speaker 2: held online recruitment and marketplace company Upwork.
Speaker 4: She joins us from Florida. Kelly, great to have you
Speaker 4: back with us. How are you.
Speaker 8: I'm doing great, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Well, it's great to have you here. You guys have
Speaker 4: some new research on gen Z.
Speaker 2: Those was born I guess was it the late nineteen nineties,
Speaker 2: early twenty ten, some twenty percent of our population. Why
Speaker 2: first of all, did you focus on this group in particular, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 8: A great question. The reason why we zoomed in on
Speaker 8: gen Z was two reasons. The first is at the
Speaker 8: end of the year, they're going to actually overtake in
Speaker 8: terms of percentage of workforce the baby boomers, So just
Speaker 8: by their sheer size as important, we understand whether they're
Speaker 8: coming into the workforce. And it's also graduation season, and
Speaker 8: so we wanted to also help gen z ers navigate
Speaker 8: the new world of work they find themselves entering.
Speaker 2: I got to say, walking in and around New York City,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of universities, saw a lot of Columbia
Speaker 2: grads getting ready for graduate graduation ceremonies. That was interesting
Speaker 2: to walk around. So you guys did some research into
Speaker 2: this group. So what are first of all, let's start
Speaker 2: big and broad. What are the big findings that you
Speaker 2: guys came up with.
Speaker 8: Yeah, the biggest finding I think is actually a big
Speaker 8: wake up call for leaders today and what gen Z
Speaker 8: told us research, So they want to work differently than
Speaker 8: the typical employment model is today, our most highly skilled
Speaker 8: and highly educated freelancers are wanting to be entrepreneurs, and
Speaker 8: they're actually finding a more stable career path towards managing
Speaker 8: a portfolio of freelance project as an example, in order
Speaker 8: to diversify their project work and diversify their income. So
Speaker 8: we think about all the things that gen Z has
Speaker 8: grown up in and in stable economy, the pandemic, they're
Speaker 8: really looking to take much more control and individualize their work.
Speaker 8: And so that to me is a big wake up
Speaker 8: call to leaders today to think through gen Z signaling
Speaker 8: to us that the way that we've structured work is
Speaker 8: broken to them, they want more control and flexibility over
Speaker 8: the way they're working today.
Speaker 2: Kelly, do they really really really want it or is
Speaker 2: it just kind of what's coming to them? And I
Speaker 2: asked that because, I mean, I get it. I'm in
Speaker 2: the media world. I've seen lots of freelance work, and
Speaker 2: I think some do really like it, but many are
Speaker 2: still seeking out kind of that full time gig. I mean,
Speaker 2: do they really want this to be so many different
Speaker 2: maybe smaller jobs, if you will, that kind of add
Speaker 2: up to a whole.
Speaker 8: That's such a great question. And here's what we're finding
Speaker 8: within the data. Those that have a post grad degree
Speaker 8: are the ones that are actually more likely to be
Speaker 8: structuring work this way. And I think the reason is
Speaker 8: what they really really want to answer the question is flexibility.
Speaker 8: And I think, you know, as we think through the
Speaker 8: rto headlines that are coming back, the layoffs that have occurred,
Speaker 8: especially within the tech industry, I'm going to be honest
Speaker 8: with you, I think it's spooked this generation a bit
Speaker 8: and they're realizing that traditional contract with one employer being
Speaker 8: tethered to one organization can't get them to where they
Speaker 8: want to go fast as fast enough and especially given
Speaker 8: the economic conditions. They're growing up in the cost to
Speaker 8: buy a house, the cost to buy a car, groceries,
Speaker 8: all this is so much more expensive. And so again
Speaker 8: those that are highly educated and can really write their
Speaker 8: own ticket, having the right skill sets that are in
Speaker 8: demand we see in our data set are actually opting towards. Again,
Speaker 8: these aren't going to be your short typical gig type projects.
Speaker 8: So these aren't going to be the people necessarily driving
Speaker 8: an ubercar or doing door dash. These are the people
Speaker 8: are going to come in and are tackling machine learning
Speaker 8: or data science or your content creators and working on
Speaker 8: longer term complex projects that quite frankly, as an early
Speaker 8: career professional walking into corporate America, they might not have
Speaker 8: the opportunity to do.
Speaker 2: Because I do wonder too, and just you know, indulge
Speaker 2: me for a moment, like I do think. I watch,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of the younger nieces and nephews in
Speaker 2: my world, and just yeah, like the flexibility. But then
Speaker 2: they get married and they have kids, and then they
Speaker 2: become very nine to five and they have to buy
Speaker 2: a house, and so they want the benefits the healthcare
Speaker 2: because I do think about that part of you know,
Speaker 2: when you are piecing together freelance work. You don't have
Speaker 2: all the amenities that you might get from a full
Speaker 2: time job.
Speaker 8: You know, I think this is such a great question
Speaker 8: you have, And really I'm calling this like the gen
Speaker 8: Z paradox that we're seeing, because you're right. I think
Speaker 8: there's the reality of the macroeconomic conditions we're facing today
Speaker 8: that are requiring a really need for income and to
Speaker 8: get it faster and to get promoted faster, and so
Speaker 8: there's these expectations of wanting more because of this, and
Speaker 8: yet there's just a strong demand and desire for autonomy
Speaker 8: and flexibility and some like when you can craft both
Speaker 8: of those things, I think that's the best of both worlds.
Speaker 8: You were absolutely correct though that I think the reality
Speaker 8: that many are struggling with in the paradox they find
Speaker 8: themselves facing is what one do they have to choose?
Speaker 8: And again, where they are right now, they're younger in
Speaker 8: their careers, and we see this across many generations. You're
Speaker 8: willing to take risk, you're able to try to think
Speaker 8: about entrepreneurship because you're at that right life stage to
Speaker 8: do so. The more that you age, and to your point,
Speaker 8: the more responsibilities and quite frankly the cost to incur
Speaker 8: I think gen Z is trying to weigh out how
Speaker 8: long is it going to take me to climb the
Speaker 8: corporate ladder? Do I have enough stability? Am I going
Speaker 8: to end up getting laid off? Is this a safer
Speaker 8: route to actually diversify? And I think those are questions
Speaker 8: that we're seeing played out in real time today by
Speaker 8: this generation.
Speaker 2: All right, so then is there a message to corporate America.
Speaker 2: You're saying, hey, folks, this is what's happening with the
Speaker 2: current workforce.
Speaker 4: You better wake up, especially.
Speaker 2: When you know, when did I talk about Walmart saying hey, folks,
Speaker 2: we want you back back at the office.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I found that so actually fascinating as I was
Speaker 8: listening to you opening up the segment. I think this
Speaker 8: is a big wake up call for corporate America today.
Speaker 8: We know like the idea of work feeling broken, and
Speaker 8: that we see the stats all the time that Gallop
Speaker 8: reports on employee engagement is not off the charts, it's low.
Speaker 8: Most people are struggling today, and so there's something systematically
Speaker 8: broken about the way that we've structured work today. In
Speaker 8: the age of AI, in the age of distributed work,
Speaker 8: we have all these new technologies that I think are
Speaker 8: causing workers to think differently because they're behaving differently as customers.
Speaker 8: And yet it's harder for us to move our organizational practices,
Speaker 8: our systems and technologies that we built around that is
Speaker 8: much more centered around this long term employment contract. The
Speaker 8: reality is that's not the way the world's working today.
Speaker 8: Customers are demanding much more speed and convenience, and because
Speaker 8: of that, that's really disrupted the entire way leaders are
Speaker 8: thinking about work. And so the wake up call is,
Speaker 8: you can't continue to do business as usual. If your
Speaker 8: plan is to attract and retrain gen Z talent by
Speaker 8: doing what you're doing today, I would be honest with you,
Speaker 8: there's not enough gen z ers coming up the ranks.
Speaker 8: Baby Boomers are retiring at faster rads. In some industries
Speaker 8: it's five to one ratio where baby boomers are leaving
Speaker 8: to everyone gen Z. So we've got to wake up.
Speaker 8: We've got to figure out how to make work for
Speaker 8: the majority of people today, and I think that requires
Speaker 8: some deep systematic change.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that I'm going to throw out? Artificial
Speaker 2: intelligence and anybody who's smart talks about and says we're
Speaker 2: very early in terms of the impact it's going to
Speaker 2: have on the workforce. Although having said that, there are
Speaker 2: folks out there that are already saying we're a little
Speaker 2: worried about the jobs that are going to be taken
Speaker 2: or replaced by GENAI, machine learning and so on. Gen
Speaker 2: Z in terms of how they approach AI, anything constructive
Speaker 2: that you guys are coming.
Speaker 8: Up with yet, Yeah, it's a great, great question. So
Speaker 8: one big thing that I'm seeing that's the behavior change
Speaker 8: in gen Z committed to other generations, is they are
Speaker 8: adopting this technology much faster than other cohorts, and they're
Speaker 8: doing so in two ways. One is that they are
Speaker 8: self directed their learning. Because they're digitally native cohort, they're
Speaker 8: not afraid to take these online courses. They're not afraid
Speaker 8: to actually learn through online mechanisms, and so they're embracing
Speaker 8: this and are much more likely to have a certificate
Speaker 8: today in AI as an example. But here's the other thing,
Speaker 8: and this is what I actually think is so interesting.
Speaker 8: They're much more willing to go for coaching and advice
Speaker 8: to systems like chat SCHPT, so these large language models,
Speaker 8: they're a bit more organic and inherent in the way
Speaker 8: that they're interacting with them to get advice. Gen Z
Speaker 8: in particular hates and efficiency, and so their ability to
Speaker 8: actually utilize these tools to work faster is really mind
Speaker 8: blowing to me. And so I do think this generation
Speaker 8: is going to help us shape what this world of
Speaker 8: work is going to look like in the age of AI.
Speaker 8: The messaging is like, if you're not gen Z, we
Speaker 8: got to play catch up the rest of our older generations.
Speaker 2: I do want to be smart because I know always
Speaker 2: get emails like after I have a conversation like this
Speaker 2: and they say, well, wait a minute, Like you look
Speaker 2: at a lot of the pandemic darling stocks. Kind of
Speaker 2: funny that we're talking about memestocks today, but you saw
Speaker 2: like such an uptick in things that benefited because we
Speaker 2: were shut down, people were laid off, there were just
Speaker 2: things we did differently. Small businesses were being created. Are
Speaker 2: we kind of though in terms of people with freelance
Speaker 2: generally speaking or doing it on their own kind of
Speaker 2: getting back more to twenty nineteen levels And forgive me,
Speaker 2: I'm only got about thirty seconds.
Speaker 4: Got to be quick, there's.
Speaker 8: No problem, Yeah, no worries. So absolutely the pandemic has
Speaker 8: accelerated this. But I will tell you from our research
Speaker 8: gen Z who's doing this from a full time basis,
Speaker 8: have been doing it for two plus years. So I
Speaker 8: do think there's a trend that we've got to watch
Speaker 8: out for. I do think it's going to be much
Speaker 8: more mainstream and not just a pandemic flip.
Speaker 2: All right, we're gonna leave it on that note, Kelly.
Speaker 2: Great to get some time with you, doctor Kelly Monahan.
Speaker 2: She's managing director of Upwork Research Institute, joining us from Florida,
Speaker 2: and still got a few weeks before we get our
Speaker 2: next monthly read on the labor market. But something to
Speaker 2: think about, especially when it comes to kind of a
Speaker 2: younger generation.
Speaker 5: A bromuk.
Speaker 9: A journal.
Speaker 8: Now about you let me drive?
Speaker 5: Oh no, no, no, no, who's going to drive?
Speaker 7: Honey?
Speaker 9: Please?
Speaker 6: I'll do the riding gravels. Excuse mate, I want to
Speaker 6: try to quit time lesson.
Speaker 1: This is the Drive to the Clothes Well on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: All right, everybody just got about just under eighteen minutes
Speaker 2: left in today's trading session.
Speaker 4: Let's get to it.
Speaker 2: Our Drive to the closed guest a special guest Michael Riley,
Speaker 2: co head of markets at Wells Fargo Corporate and Investment
Speaker 2: Bank here in our Bloomberg in Director Broker Studio. Also
Speaker 2: participating in the Wells Fargo Military Appreciation event here at
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Headquarters today. Michael, by the way, a decorated officer
Speaker 2: in the Navy, where he served aboard the nuclear submarine
Speaker 2: USS Memphis. Excuse me, yes, USS Memphis. Let me try
Speaker 2: back and say that again, USS Memphis. Welcome, Welcome, Thank
Speaker 2: you for being with us.
Speaker 9: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: I think my brother was on the Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 2: We were talking before we got started because he was
Speaker 2: also in the Navy.
Speaker 4: I want to ask you.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's a million places I want to go,
Speaker 2: but I want to ask you about being in the Navy,
Speaker 2: what you learned and how that kind of translated to
Speaker 2: being in the financial industry.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean it's it's a good question. I get
Speaker 9: that question a lot, especially from people from veterans as
Speaker 9: they're trying to transition out, because they don't necessarily know
Speaker 9: as much about the financial industry as as they would
Speaker 9: if they had been gone gone through school where you
Speaker 9: like I was. I mean, I had an undergraduate business degree,
Speaker 9: but I was also a chemical engineer. Right, So ultimately
Speaker 9: I was an engineer, so I didn't really know that
Speaker 9: much about it either. It just from talking to people
Speaker 9: in networking, right, I think I think you know, and
Speaker 9: you asked the question. To answer your question in terms
Speaker 9: of what I learned, I mean, certainly perseverance is one thing, right,
Speaker 9: And and personal responsibility around things. I think. I think
Speaker 9: being in the military, you're thrown into, uh, you know,
Speaker 9: a role of responsibility much faster than most people coming
Speaker 9: out of directly out of college. Right. So you know
Speaker 9: when I came out of college, I was I was
Speaker 9: put on a nuclear submarine, you know, basically to run
Speaker 9: a nuclear actor five hundred feet underwater. Right, So too
Speaker 9: much pressure, not too much respect. Not many people have
Speaker 9: had that experience. I mean, certainly some, but you know
Speaker 9: it was some then it was it was a life
Speaker 9: experience that you know a lot of people will never
Speaker 9: get to experience.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: And I think about kind of what you're doing markets,
Speaker 2: and I feel like this environment, the m and a environment, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a tricky one. I think people
Speaker 2: are trying to figure the way forward. You were just
Speaker 2: at Milk and we were talking a little bit about
Speaker 2: it I was at Milk and it felt like that
Speaker 2: there was a lot more optimism than we've seen, certainly
Speaker 2: the last two years.
Speaker 4: How do you see the macro environment right now?
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, look, there certainly is a lot of optimism,
Speaker 9: right I think that people have already started to look
Speaker 9: forward towards the rate cuts. I think part of the
Speaker 9: problem is they've been looking forward for a year now.
Speaker 4: Is that a mistake in your review?
Speaker 9: I think it has been historically, But I mean, you know,
Speaker 9: it's worked so far, and hopefully things will kind of
Speaker 9: coast in, you know, over the next six ish to
Speaker 9: nine months. I mean, now the speculation is I mean,
Speaker 9: at least probability would say that, you know, the next
Speaker 9: cut would probably be or the first cut would probably
Speaker 9: be some time at the September meeting. I mean that's
Speaker 9: our view as a house.
Speaker 4: But we'll see probably get CPI tomorrow and then we
Speaker 4: get Yeah, I.
Speaker 9: Mean our view was we were cut in June two.
Speaker 9: So like, I mean, it just keeps getting pushed out.
Speaker 9: I think I think there's just too much uncertainty around
Speaker 9: around you know, conflicting inflationary data versus jobs data.
Speaker 4: Does it meant it?
Speaker 2: Like I think about in your markets group, right, you
Speaker 2: guys are up what about thirty seven percent year every
Speaker 2: year in the last earnings report markets division in general,
Speaker 2: you also saw gains in investment, banking, the trading market
Speaker 2: space as well. I mean volatility, Like traders love volatility.
Speaker 2: That's a good thing, and you anticipate that that continues.
Speaker 9: I do, well, I think, well, so we were thirty
Speaker 9: seven percent last year versus the year before. This year,
Speaker 9: we're kind of on par for where we were last year,
Speaker 9: so it's not really a huge gain, but I mean,
Speaker 9: certainly volatility helps. There was a lot of volatility, especially
Speaker 9: in the beginning of last year when it came to
Speaker 9: the regional bank issues that we had, and my expectation
Speaker 9: is that there will be volatility into the second half
Speaker 9: of the year. What we've really seen so far this
Speaker 9: year is you know, a very robust issuance calendar, especially
Speaker 9: on the debt side, and the speculation is a lot
Speaker 9: of that is just stuff being pulled forward because as
Speaker 9: you get closer and closer to the election, the uncertainty
Speaker 9: around that certainly will cause market volatility, but also causes uncertainty,
Speaker 9: so you know, corporates want to get their funding out
Speaker 9: of the way now and try to roll all that
Speaker 9: forward at least that's the expectation.
Speaker 2: But a sign of a healthy market that they're doing
Speaker 2: that and being able to do that.
Speaker 9: Yes, Oh, it's very healthy. I mean, you know, yeah,
Speaker 9: And part of it is, you know, companies that are
Speaker 9: coming right now right certainly you know are in are
Speaker 9: in a you know, pretty stable you know cash flow standpoint, right,
Speaker 9: but for the most part, you know, thing deals are
Speaker 9: getting done.
Speaker 2: What do you make Michael though of the M and
Speaker 2: A environment A five point two trillion in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: one that was the peak? Is that the outlier or
Speaker 2: I don't know, how do you see it right now?
Speaker 9: I think, well, it's it's super positive. There's a lot
Speaker 9: of conversations happening from what we're hearing. Yeah, I think
Speaker 9: there is a little bit of uncertainy from a regulatory standpoint.
Speaker 9: There spend some deals that have been kind of you know,
Speaker 9: having gone so well based on that. But I think
Speaker 9: there's a lot of optimism around M and A.
Speaker 2: I do is it mostly because of what's coming out
Speaker 2: of private equity in terms of needing to either do
Speaker 2: some exits but also having a lot of cash till
Speaker 2: to put to work.
Speaker 9: Yes, absolutely, there is a ton of cash, just.
Speaker 4: The private equity part that maybe is fueling.
Speaker 9: I think, I think that's part of what's keeping things moving.
Speaker 9: But it's not just private equity, right, It's it's companies
Speaker 9: that have you know, strong cash positions that want to
Speaker 9: increase their business.
Speaker 2: What's the biggest risk, what's the biggest thing that when
Speaker 2: you guys look at the outlook here, because I do
Speaker 2: feel like depending on the day, depending on what either
Speaker 2: FED speak or an economic data point or that for
Speaker 2: the most part, is.
Speaker 4: What kind of makes you know, we see some movement
Speaker 4: in the markets.
Speaker 9: Look, that's that's what's causing the market to move. And
Speaker 9: everybody is you know, you know, tied to the edge
Speaker 9: of their seat when it comes to things like CPI
Speaker 9: and data as it comes out, trying to speculate on
Speaker 9: the FED. But I mean it's pretty well telegraphed, right,
Speaker 9: like we know months ahead of time, or we we
Speaker 9: think we'll know months ahead of time when things are
Speaker 9: going to happen. I think the biggest risk is and
Speaker 9: I mean we saw it, you know, happen, although the
Speaker 9: market didn't really react the way I would have expected
Speaker 9: them to act. But geopolitics has been a big issue
Speaker 9: and it's quiet down a lot. That doesn't mean it's
Speaker 9: going to stay quiet. I think my personal opinion is
Speaker 9: that's the biggest risk is something that we're not expecting
Speaker 9: from a geopolitical standpoint and starts to you know, change
Speaker 9: the environment out there.
Speaker 2: Which is pretty remarkable if you think of the last
Speaker 2: two years, right, that has certainly hit us hard, and
Speaker 2: we're not done yet in terms of those two specific events,
Speaker 2: whether it Ukraine and Russia or what's going on in
Speaker 2: the Middle East. You guys are here at Bloomberg Headquarters
Speaker 2: doing this military appreciation event. I've had a great conversation
Speaker 2: with John Weiss of Wells Fargo about it. But when
Speaker 2: you think about veterans and the things that they need
Speaker 2: and the importance of making, you know, providing for them,
Speaker 2: whether it's mental health, whether it's needing a home, I mean,
Speaker 2: how do you think about it and what's so important
Speaker 2: about it?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 9: Look, I think I think when you really dig into it,
Speaker 9: veterans right have spent a period of time, a significant
Speaker 9: period of their time right basically serving their country right.
Speaker 9: And it's not just the veterans, it's veterans families. Right.
Speaker 9: I tell people all the time, my wife actually had
Speaker 9: the hard job, right because I was on a nuclear submarine.
Speaker 9: My wife had a one and a half year old
Speaker 9: and a six month old when I went on a
Speaker 9: six month deployment, right. So you know, so it's transitioning
Speaker 9: out of the military, not just for veterans, but for
Speaker 9: veteran families, right, and making sure that we support them
Speaker 9: because it's difficult. And you know, the military is really
Speaker 9: good at some things transitioning people out. Once they're off
Speaker 9: the government payroll, they kind of become not really the
Speaker 9: government's responsibility anymore. Right, So it's really up to us
Speaker 9: to kind of pick that up, right, whether it's you know,
Speaker 9: foundations and charitable contributions, et cetera, et cetera. That's great, right,
Speaker 9: And you know, I think and Wells part of specifically
Speaker 9: does a lot of that, right, But for me, it's
Speaker 9: actually more important around the employment and the education process,
Speaker 9: so that you know, you can take veterans who are
Speaker 9: very proud people in general, right, you get them and
Speaker 9: you teach them the ability to actually you know, get
Speaker 9: a job, work and support their family, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 9: You know at at a high level, and I think
Speaker 9: I think we've come a long way in the last
Speaker 9: twenty years, but we still have a lot of work
Speaker 9: to do.
Speaker 4: Agreed.
Speaker 2: Agreed, And it was interesting what you said about families.
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of things too about whether it's
Speaker 2: PTSD and the impact. It's not only the soldier who
Speaker 2: was overseas, but it's also their families who have to
Speaker 2: live with it. Michael, thank you so much and thanks
Speaker 2: for sharing with our audience. Michael Riley, he's co head
Speaker 2: of markets at Wells Fargo Corporate and Investment Bank. Joining
Speaker 2: us here in studio, you are listening and watching Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Business Week.
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