1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey 2 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: whips Martis. This week we are joined by an artist 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: who I admire so immensely. She is a film director, 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: a screenwriter and actress, an author, and her body of 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: work includes film, fiction, monologue, digital presentations, live performance art. 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: Today's guest is none other than Miranda July. She joins 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: us today to talk about her second novel, All Fours, 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: which she spent four years working on. Miranda's here to 9 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: tell us about the journey of collecting ideas and thoughts 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: and personal stories and how eventually she shaped them into 11 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: this beautiful book, by the way, while making a film. Yes, 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: she's that amazing. I can't wait to talk to her, 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: not only about the novel, but about her process as 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: an artist, because she manages to spin all of the 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: plates so beautifully and elegantly. Her work has certainly made 16 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: me feel incredibly seen. And today you'll even hear a 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: little anecdote about how one of her movies was an 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: early project that Hillary Burton and I bonded over in 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: our early days of filming One Tree Hill. Miranda has 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: really influenced me, and I know so many other artists 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: for nearly two decades now, and I just can't wait 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: to have this conversation with her. Enjoy well, Miranda, thank 23 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today. I'm such a 24 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: fan of your work and I think you have such 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: a beautifully unique voice. I have a million questions I 26 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: want to ask you about how you make art and 27 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: how you write and all the things. But before we 28 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: start on what's happening in your world, I really like 29 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: to rewind with people, because I think you know, fans, 30 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: audience members, they've met you where you are as an adult, 31 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: they read your books, they see you in film. But 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: I'm really curious if from this vantage point in your life, 33 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: if you were to sort of, you know, rewind the 34 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: movie and meet yourself at eight or nine years old, 35 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: would you now see a real through line or were 36 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: you a completely different kid when you were little? 37 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: Right now? I was this same kid. I yeah. I 38 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 2: mean my like big fantasy world back then, which was 39 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: sort of you know, kind of kids have all their 40 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: sort of survival mechanisms, and that was mine, you know, 41 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: because it is a adult world. Were all living in 42 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: a kids and I guess I feel like that only 43 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: got bigger and became like a bigger and bigger muscle. 44 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: But I can so remember even the specific fantasies that 45 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: I had, yeah at that age, I mean yeah, just 46 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: different sort of fixations and stuff. And it was very 47 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: kind of making worlds. I mean sometimes like a doll 48 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: house world, you know, literally, but yeah, yeah. 49 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: Were you were you starting to write stories as a kid. 50 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: I remember having some pretensions in that area. I actually 51 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: still have the beginnings of a story in middle school, 52 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: you know, so I guess I wasn't a child prodigy 53 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: that was written with a fountain pen. You know. It 54 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: was like really helpful that the fountain pen was going 55 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: to do it, you know. I pushed me over the 56 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: edge of being able to somehow write a book. Didn't 57 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: get you know, even to the bottom of the page. 58 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: But I did start. In high school, I wrote and 59 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: directed my first play, and that I do actually consider 60 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: my first real work because I remember the feeling very clearly, 61 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: and it was the start of this feeling of a 62 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: feeling like I was hell bent on expressing myself and 63 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 2: I would die if I did it, you know, And 64 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: so I had to write a play to show what 65 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: was going on with me at the time. Not a 66 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 2: great play, it wasn't like, oh I'm so grate at this, 67 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: I have to continue. It was just more the feeling 68 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: of making it. 69 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the story that felt like it had 70 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: to get out? Was it a like a theme you 71 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: wanted to express or something that felt really specific? 72 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was specific. It was. I had started writing 73 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: to a man in prison when I was about fifteen, 74 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: and it was a long, intense relationship, not a romantic relationship. 75 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: Thank god. I was like a young feminist even then, 76 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: and when things started in that direction. I mean, this 77 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: man was you know, he was thirty eight, he'd been 78 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: in prison for a long time, you know, and I 79 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: wrote him out of the blue because there was a 80 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 2: list of prison pen pals. Anyways, the experience of that 81 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: was just so aliening. I mean, really, there was no 82 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: other kid I could talk to about like prison life, 83 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: and I think I wanted to show what that was 84 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: like for me, and also I tried to show what 85 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: it was like for him to be relating to this 86 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: like teenage girl you know, was fine, you know, who 87 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: didn't really have any problems in a sense. Yeah, so 88 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: it was called the Lifers. 89 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: Why do you think, I guess I'm curious because I've 90 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. I find myself drawn to people and 91 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: their stories into the things that are often I think 92 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: uncomfortable societally, and whether that's you know, excavating why we 93 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: behave the way we do to others, or even prison 94 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: visits myself with folks who don't often get you know, visited, 95 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: spoken to people concerned about their well being. And I 96 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: think about you finding that list at seventeen, What do 97 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: you think made you curious as a teenager about that 98 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: person and that life? 99 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to be honest there, Yes, well, I 100 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: think there was empathy and involved for sure, like I 101 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: really felt his loneliness. I also think there was a 102 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: kind of uh like daredevil something to it, like a 103 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: sort of like and in a kind of like deep way, 104 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: like the sense of risk, Like I still have that 105 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: in me, like a sense of like, well, no one's 106 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: going to do this, so I will, and and that 107 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: is almost like a reason to do it and and 108 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: and for good. I mean, not no one's gonna, you know, 109 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: choose something terrible like I. You know, there is a 110 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: kind of like mission to serve, you know. I think 111 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: I tend to get almost a little frozen or paralyzed 112 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: unless the risk level is pretty high, you know, and 113 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: then suddenly I'm like all in. 114 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 115 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, middle ground is not like an easy space for me. 116 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I understand that. It makes me think of 117 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: something that I read when you were writing about the 118 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: zine that you and your friends worked on, Snarla. You 119 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: talked about how it had a punk aesthetic even though 120 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: you guys didn't come from punk bands. You were writers. Yea, 121 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: and there is something deeply punk about leaning into risky 122 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: spaces and doing things that might be considered radical but 123 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: are also actually rooted in love or art or service. 124 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, No, you've exactly nailed it. 125 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: I love that. 126 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. 127 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: Do you think the risk goes hand in hand with 128 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: feeling creatively free? Like, is it like an energetic thing 129 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: that pushes you off the ledge into a project. 130 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good way to put it. It's 131 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: like here where everyone else is, you know, I'm kind 132 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: of trapped, and then if I'm out on a limb, essentially, well, 133 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: one good thing about being out on a limb is 134 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: there's a lot of room out there. I mean, you 135 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: might fall, but you're also kind of free, and it's 136 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: almost like sort of the illusion of flying, you know, 137 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: or something like being not quite sure what's holding you up, 138 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: but curious, like really wanting to wanting to know, you know, 139 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: like a real It's very kind of like constant beginner's 140 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: mode in a way, you know, And I think, yeah, 141 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 2: for you know, at this point, I'm fifty, I mean 142 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: I was a teenager that, so I've been doing this 143 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: now for a long time, but that that newness just 144 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 2: stays if the risk level keeps getting upped. 145 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think about that a lot in terms of 146 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: what we do. You know, in a way, it feels 147 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: to me like it's like a constant first day of school. 148 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: Every time you start a new project. You're in a 149 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: new place, new people, new sort of artistic language you 150 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: have to learn. And I giggle with some of my 151 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: other friends who do this. I'm like, wow, we're really 152 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: we really sign up to torture ourselves forever. But it's 153 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: like if if you love to tell stories, you just 154 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: can't help it. 155 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you kind of like see yourself a 156 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: new like in those circumstances and in talking to strangers 157 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: and people you know have different stories and you and stuff. 158 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: It's like you're not in your lane exactly. You know, 159 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: you're familiar lane, and and so you realize that everything 160 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: about you doesn't it doesn't just go without saying. You know, 161 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: if you are just around your friends, it's kind of 162 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: like seamless. So I think maybe that's part of the 163 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: thrill too. Like you, you understand what's specific about you 164 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: again and again and maybe get more and more comfortable 165 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: with that. 166 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: I love that. So from this this point, you know, 167 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: you talk about how you've been doing this a long time. 168 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: Who do you think are some of your biggest creative influences, 169 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: you know, what inspires you to push yourself to these 170 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: edges over and over again? 171 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I think it's often people in my life really, 172 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: so they're not going to be like names people know 173 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: of necessarily, but it's you know, I often have always 174 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: have like a really close woman friend who is also 175 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: taking risks, who I am in conversation with, you know, 176 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: a in a ongoing you know, weekly sometimes daily way. 177 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: And that's it's been that way since I was a 178 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: little girl. And it's not you know, friend changes, and 179 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: I accumulate friends. I don't tend to discard them, so 180 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: you know, it's now like a pool of women, and 181 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: then occasionally, like some woman you meet in passing, you know, 182 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: that kind of weird intimacy that can happen with like 183 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: a woman stranger, Like you're at a party or some 184 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 2: sort of work event or something, and they're just like 185 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: a look at each other's eyes, like you're both kind 186 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: of looking into the abyss, even though you're in this 187 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: maybe more formal setting, and you just exchange like the quickest, 188 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: most honest conversation anyone could possibly have in like fourteen seconds, 189 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 2: like are you feeling this? I'm feeling this. Okay, good, 190 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: we're both feeling this. We'll carry on, you know. And 191 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: that too, is there's something really radical about that to me, 192 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: like that sort of underground network or something. 193 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: Yes. 194 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not only about these like best friends. 195 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: There's like a a communal feeling too that that is 196 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: inspiring that. Yeah, that does push me further. 197 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: Yeah too, especially in the environments you're talking about the 198 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: difference I think between being observed and being seen. 199 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that feels so difficult. 200 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and when someone really sees you and allows you 201 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: to really see them, that can be a really seismic 202 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: moment in what looks like a dinner party. 203 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah I know, yeah, your own consciousness suddenly shifts and 204 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, yeah, here I am. 205 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: It's really interesting you saying that makes me think about 206 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: one of my best friends who I grew up with 207 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: on my first TV show. We started our birthdays a 208 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: week apart. You know, we started this job like, I 209 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: don't know, eight days after we turned twenty one. We 210 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: had no fucking idea what we were doing. And you know, 211 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: it was this sort of duality of such a gift 212 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: because we wound up doing this TV show about kids 213 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: who wanted to talk about their feelings and it lasted 214 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: for almost a decade, and you know, who gets to 215 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: do a job for that long. But we were these angsty, little, 216 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, girl artists who wanted to do really weird shit, 217 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: and you know, we were doing like high school sports. 218 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: And I remember the feeling for she and I we 219 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: knew we each had that, and she was a person 220 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: who really saw me and I really saw her. And 221 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: it's so cool to hear you tell a story that 222 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: makes me think about our first year working together, because 223 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: it was two thousand and three, and in two thousand 224 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: and five, when you made me, you and everyone we know, 225 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: she and I fell like we had the giddiness that 226 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: I remember seeing in older movies about like when a 227 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: boy would find his dad's playboys, like, we have found 228 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: something that maybe we're not supposed to have, and should 229 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: we like sneak into the attic to watch it together 230 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: because you just like you, you allowed for quiet and 231 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: quirk and introspection and like all the shit you don't 232 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: get to do on a teen TV show, and we 233 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: were just like, we want to be. 234 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: Artists like this. Well I would have been so thrilled 235 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: at the time. It would have been like I've made it, 236 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: I've done my work. Care is done. 237 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: No, it was like, really, it was just such a 238 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: cool thing because yeah, we we felt like we had 239 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: discovered this new option for how you could tell stories. 240 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: And you know, we were kids, so we definitely were 241 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: in a face of like, oh, what old classic movies 242 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: have you seen? Like trying to coolure and then here 243 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: was this movie that had just been made and we'd 244 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: never seen anything like it. And so even though we 245 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: hadn't met until today, you and I I do have 246 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: to say thank you because. 247 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: You made like a pack of fairal. 248 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: Little animals working together in North Carolina feel very inspired 249 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: and seen. 250 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: Oh that's the best story, thank you. 251 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my gosh. And I wonder about that, you know. 252 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: I I love making art. I love to sit with writers, 253 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: and I love to tell stories and get into like 254 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: why we do these things? Ask all the weird questions. 255 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: But you have managed to do so much of it, 256 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: which I imagine takes getting over some of the hurdles of 257 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: fear about can I do this? Can I make movies? 258 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: Can I act in them? Can I write them? Can 259 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: I also write novels and books? And you do so much? 260 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: And I know you talk about how risk can really 261 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: be an element of propulsion. 262 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's more to it, I guess. 263 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much to what you do. And all 264 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: of this stuff, from what I understand, can be you know, intense, 265 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: and it's very internal, and it can make you feel 266 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: a little crazy. It can make you feel lonely. How 267 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: how do you balance, you know, your your humanness with 268 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: your ability to create when you're in every seat at 269 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: the table making these projects. 270 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean one thing it also is is very 271 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 2: very comforting. It's a little like a security blanket. So 272 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: imagine each time that I feel out of sorts or 273 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 2: lost or broken hearted. You know, I don't know what 274 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: to do next that feeling when you're like you're dangling 275 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: in space, you know, like there's nothing holding you up, 276 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: and it's a terrible feeling. But I guess at this 277 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: point I know just to start writing and just describe 278 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: the feeling. And I'm trying to get it down in 279 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: a way that someone would be able to catch. Like 280 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: I'm throwing a ball and I want it caught. You know, 281 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: this isn't throwing it into nowhere. And I can kind 282 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: of feel when like, ah, I maybe just describe something 283 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: in a way that hasn't been described before, or thought 284 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: of a scene, you know, or something that will get 285 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 2: this across. And even though in the moment I'm still alone, 286 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: it's like I have a little piece of gold, and 287 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: that's the self soothing aspect. And then it it does 288 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 2: bring you into a future where you aren't alone, where 289 00:18:53,119 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: you're having this conversation. So I think it it enables discipline, 290 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: you know, like because a big part of it is 291 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: also just sitting in a chair instead of getting up 292 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: and or more accurately, like not going online, we should 293 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 2: say getting out for something issue. It's all on the computer. 294 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: And yeah, so that's the thing is knowing like, Okay, 295 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 2: this process is so deeply satisfying and interesting. If you 296 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: can just stick with it, it's a bigger reward then 297 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: you're going to get from the quick fix of almost 298 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 2: anything else. Yeah, I mean not, you know, And then 299 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: there's real relationships, you know. I think as I get older, 300 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: I do start to realize like it can't all be 301 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: the work, you know, like that is one relationship, but 302 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 2: then there's intimacy with another person, you know, all those 303 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: things still, you know that I in some ways feel 304 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: like I'm you know, figuring out the new Yeah. 305 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really 306 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. It strikes me that, 307 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, you push into these places with characters going 308 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: through things we haven't you know, really seen, whether it's 309 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, what you did with the Metal Bowl or 310 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: or Kajillionaire, which I even think now, I'm like, oh 311 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: my god, you know that movie came out in twenty twenty. 312 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: That must have been such a wild sort of experience. 313 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: Like when you sit to create these worlds, do you 314 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 1: have a creative process that you like to stick to, 315 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: or is it different for every project, because each of 316 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: these projects is a different world. 317 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little different for each project, and each 318 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 2: tragic you know, happens in a different time in my 319 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 2: life and in the world. But I guess in general 320 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 2: it begins with kind of just noticing what's interesting to 321 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: me and religiously putting those things in a file, you know, 322 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: so just to file life, just to be practical here 323 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 2: in case it's he's told anyone like I used ever 324 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: note and I'll just like, for example, from my last novel, 325 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: I just didn't know anything about it yet I called 326 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 2: it novel too, you know, my second novel, And and 327 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: just things i'd think of or over here or conversations 328 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: i'd have, I just put it in the folder, no judgment, 329 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: no idea what this is going to be. I was 330 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: working on Kajillionaire, that movie at the time, so there 331 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: was really no pressure, right, barely time to think about 332 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: novel two. But occasionally there would be something that didn't 333 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: really have a place in the project I was working on, 334 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: and felt more like a future thing I was curious about. 335 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 2: And then you look back, and I mean in the 336 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: case of novel two, I finally had time to look 337 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: back through all those notes, and I was like, huh, aging, 338 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: femininity and aging, like the body, marriage, like all these perimenopause, 339 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: like all these things that I was like, huh, okay, 340 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: there's no story yet, but these are pretty deep themes, 341 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: you know, and sort of yeah, I don't know, just 342 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: just to use that as an example. So often it 343 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 2: is like being as loose as possible about it at 344 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 2: the beginning, because you kind of want to be like 345 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: a kindly kindergarten teacher, you know, who's just like, yes, 346 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: it's all great, yes, you know, would never be like 347 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 2: judgmental of anything. So I sort of try and be 348 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 2: that to myself for as long as possible and then 349 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 2: kind of get more rigorous about it. 350 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: That's really cool. It reminds me of a really good 351 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: piece of advice I got years ago, having to work 352 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: on a project and portray a person whose behavior I 353 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: was really conflicted about, and a friend of mine, you know, 354 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: who's a great, great actor and storyteller, who is you know, 355 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: sort of in the not age range of my parents, 356 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: but like like the cool like an everybody wants to 357 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: have kind of vibe in the span of all my 358 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: intergenerational friendships. She was like, no matter what, you can't 359 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: judge your characters, right, you have to figure out a 360 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: way to love this person. And if you can love someone, 361 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: the thing I took away was like, if I can 362 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: love someone more the more fucked up they are, won't 363 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: that be an interesting relationship to learn how to cultivate? 364 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I love I. 365 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: Love that idea that As a writer, you were like, no, no, 366 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: first first round of collection. I can't judge any of it. 367 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: I can't worry if it's important or whatever. 368 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I just have to be with it. Yeah, yeah, right, 369 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: because there is usually that repulsion too, whether it's about 370 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: what you're writing or someone else their character. There's something 371 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: in you that worries. You're like that too, you know, 372 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: or that this is all of you, this this idea, 373 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: and so it's usually striking some nerve. That's that's pretty 374 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 2: useful for what we do. 375 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: How how when you when you think about the the 376 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: narrowing down process to get into or I really I 377 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: really guess get from you know the folder labeled novel 378 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: two to the book all fours? How how do you 379 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: begin to narrow and shape a story? And did it 380 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: feel easier because it was your second novel, right, Yeah. 381 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: I felt second novel and making the movies like I did, 382 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: feel like I had some muscles and I knew how 383 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: to tell a story. And really now it was more 384 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: like like less about finding a great story and I 385 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: somehow this it began with this kind of romance. I 386 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 2: knew that there'd be this romance at the beginning, and 387 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 2: I was excited to capture that kind of drugged out 388 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 2: someone's under your skin state and figure out what was 389 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 2: it doing in the folder with with you know, aging 390 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: and perimenopause and all this stuff. You know, it was 391 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: like how do I what is this all going to be? 392 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: But I that kind of propelled me and there is 393 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: a certain amount of uh like discovery on the way. 394 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: And I think for this book most importantly conversations with 395 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 2: other women like I I in the past, I've really 396 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: been able to make a whole world just born out 397 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 2: of my brain pretty well, and this one I just 398 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: knew because of those topics. I was like, I just 399 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 2: got to talk to everyone, got to talk to women 400 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: older than me who you know, are looking back at 401 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: this time, because this really was a book about this 402 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: middle time in a life, like you're in the middle 403 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: and talk to gynecologists and talk to you know, talk 404 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: to just like learn stuff, load up on kind of information, 405 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: and then kind of let it go. Because my narrator 406 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 2: doesn't you know, she's not a doctor. She only cares 407 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 2: about changes in her body to the degree that they 408 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: affect her desires and plans for herself, you know, which 409 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: is kind of how we are, right. I mean, we 410 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 2: we only look at the things on the like web 411 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: md list that you know, might fuck with the plan 412 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: we have, you know. Everything else is like you know 413 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: gray bars. 414 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. I like, I like that 415 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: idea that you have to learn everything and then pull 416 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: it back and let it just be an influence and 417 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: not necessarily make space for every detail or every fact 418 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: to wind up on the page. 419 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, because the nice thing about what we do 420 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 2: is that there is a story, and there is like 421 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: it's juicy, and it's it's surprising, and they're you know, 422 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: like we can hook people in, you know in a 423 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: way that's that's you know, like an altered state almost, 424 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: And so if you do feel like you have something 425 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 2: to say, like what a lucky way to get to 426 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: do it, you know, like through this sort of pleasure. 427 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's deeply cool. You've talked about the process, 428 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: and I've also read some of the other interviews, and 429 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: you've talked about how the book is really close to you. 430 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: How would you describe the book? How do you tell 431 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: people what the novel's about? For the folks at home 432 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: who are going to go get it this week but 433 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: haven't read it yet. 434 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, ostensibly, it's about a woman who 435 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: sets out on a road trip to drive from LA 436 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 2: to New York, and you know, says goodbye or dramatically 437 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: to her husband and child, and then she ends up 438 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: at a motel twenty minutes away from home and still 439 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: calls in and reports on where she is at the 440 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: various points across the country, but just stays in the 441 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: motel twenty minutes away the whole time. She's so free 442 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: driving and in New York and what happens there sort of, 443 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: I mean, that's where the romance that I was talking 444 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: about happens. And it means that when she returns, which 445 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 2: only takes twenty minutes, but she has to pretend that 446 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: she's much more exhausted than that. But when she returns, 447 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: it really is as if from an incredible journey and 448 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: she no longer fits back into her life, and so 449 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 2: this kind of bends her life, which she loves very much. 450 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: I mean, she doesn't want It's not a story really 451 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: about someone blowing up their life but also not wanting 452 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: to smoothly slip back into the domestic setting again. And 453 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: it's really, as I said, a book about midlife. So 454 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: it's it's trying to look at all these things that 455 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 2: exist in this mapless place like we're so I mean, 456 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: you and I have mostly been young women. That's that's 457 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: been our whole experience thus far. And it lasts for 458 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 2: pretty long for a woman, because you know, they just 459 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: keep wanting you to be a young woman for as 460 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: long as possible. And while men your age might have 461 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: already like sort of become like thority figures, you're like 462 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: somehow still young. And and then it flips like kind 463 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: of abruptly, like I found it to be like, oh wait, 464 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: now I'm suddenly old, and all the involvement and all 465 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: the representation and and and to some degree over involvement, 466 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:59,239 Speaker 2: like in our reproductive systems stops. It just stops, and 467 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: you're actually kind of hunting for basic information about what 468 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: happens next, both in your body and just a story, 469 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: just a song or some kind of you know what 470 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: I mean, some sort of like inspiring, relatable tale that 471 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 2: kind of gives you a pathward the way you had 472 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: so many you know, leading to midlife. And so this 473 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: book hopes to be that. I mean, it's the book 474 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: I wanted when I was forty five and just starting 475 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 2: to write it. 476 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. Is that sort of a surreal thing 477 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: to realize on the other side of it as it's 478 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: being born out into the world, that that in a 479 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: way you had to create it because it just wasn't there. 480 00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll say that it it was. I 481 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: was very nervous when I started because I well, for 482 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: one thing, I was gonna be outing myself as to 483 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: my specific age, which you know, even if I mean 484 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: I'm a total feminist, I didn't plan on like lying 485 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: about my age. But I at the same time was like, huh, 486 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 2: what's going to be the loss of that to be 487 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 2: like getting into like quote unquote icky stuff around, you know, 488 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: Like wouldn't I rather just sort of be graceful about 489 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,239 Speaker 2: it and sort of keep it like who knows how 490 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: old she really is for as long as possible. And 491 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: then I was like, well, I'm not sure what the like. 492 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 2: The reward for that, I guess is is as you 493 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: get older, you're sort of ignored less meanly, which didn't 494 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: seem like a huge reward. And then I thought, well, 495 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: the reward for writing the book would be this conversation 496 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: with other women. And I think I can kind of 497 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: get through anything and even enjoy anything if I have 498 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: that conversation. And I think given that the book was 499 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: written essentially in conversation with so many women and has 500 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 2: so many women's kind of voices in there, as you know, 501 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: the narrator's friends and you know, whole world, I was 502 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: placing all my bets on that working out for me 503 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: and having that on the other end, and it's it's 504 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: working out, Like I am having that conversation and it's 505 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: just beginning, but it's I want to go back and 506 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: tell that woman sitting at her desk for four years, 507 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: like just keep going. I guess I am. I guess 508 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: I did somehow go back and tell her because here 509 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: I am. 510 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. And now for our sponsors, and have there been 511 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: moments you've had in conversation with other women where you go, ah, 512 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: like this is one of the gems I pick up 513 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: here and this has a little nugget here. What do 514 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: you what do you feel like you've collected from that 515 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: conversational experience. 516 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 2: I mean, one thing is just uh talking to other 517 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: mothers married to men as I was at the time, 518 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: but mother's married to really anyone, because I just think 519 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: the institution of marriage holds a lot with it regardless 520 00:34:53,560 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 2: of who you're marrying. A we're often the conversation often 521 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: was like, is this level of kind of sacrifice at 522 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 2: a soul at a soul level, is this degree of 523 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 2: that an indication of our goodness and the profoundness of 524 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: what we're doing here? Or is there maybe something kind 525 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 2: of off about all this? And then the the really 526 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,919 Speaker 2: clear thing to me was that we were too exhausted 527 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: and already feeling guilty about ten million things to hold 528 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: the thread of that thought, you know, because it's like 529 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: easy to feel sort of alone in a marriage or 530 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: as a mother, and then there's just something else to 531 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: do next after you have that feeling that you've got 532 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: to do responsibility wise, and so you're not going to 533 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 2: lie start a revolution off that one moment right, You're 534 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 2: not going to radically change something in your life off 535 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 2: that one moment. But what if I, because it's literally 536 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 2: my job, collected all those moments and held the thread 537 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 2: and just tried to connect them all together, just on 538 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: the off chance that this is actually something that we 539 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: keep dismissing. But actually we're all dismissing it. And so 540 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 2: maybe that's not just a nagging feeling that you know 541 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 2: that should be pushed down. But yeah, you know, so 542 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: I tried. I tried in the book to hold that 543 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 2: thread as like holding a grain of sand for four 544 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 2: years and believing it was valuable. 545 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: Well, it strikes me as how powerful an idea and 546 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: honestly of permissions of sorts to look at your feelings 547 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: and the feelings of all these other women and say, hey, 548 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: that knocking your experiencing isn't a sign of your unworthiness 549 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: or your lack of capability to make it all work. 550 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: It might be an indicator that you have settled for 551 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: less than you deserve. It might be a calling to 552 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: open the door and see what's on the other side, right. 553 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it might be an indication that there's something 554 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 2: not right with the world or the structure that you're in, 555 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, rather than you like you're fitting into something 556 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: that is genuinely uncomfortable, you know, like a box that 557 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 2: doesn't fit you. 558 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you get so conditioned to do it. Yeah, and 559 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: then you know, wild things happen, like a pandemic or 560 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: you know the summer of twenty twenty three where like 561 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: everyone got divorced. Yeah, and you go, oh, okay, there's 562 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,919 Speaker 1: something happening here. And I think I think sometimes it's 563 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: not a coincidence that it big shifts like that happen 564 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: in such large groups. You know, such a large percentage 565 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: of people will make you know, whether it's that Summer 566 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three shift or you know, shifts in 567 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: their work life. You know, people got sent home from 568 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: their offices and then change their whole lives. And you know, 569 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: more women than ever started small businesses. And I think 570 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: there can be terror, I'm sure, but you know freedom 571 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: when you claim your right to change. 572 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and how you want to do it, and 573 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 2: that it doesn't have to look like the way someone 574 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 2: else changed. 575 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, does it feel? Because I think it's so beautiful 576 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: when you talk about how personal these stories are and 577 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: how you can see yourself and all these other women 578 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: in your life in a novel like this. But I 579 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: know you know, you talked about how the Metal Bowl, 580 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: the short story for Our Friends at Home, It was 581 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: published in The New Yorker in twenty seventeen. It's a 582 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: really incredible piece, and I think really pressing even in 583 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four now that we're seeing a lot of 584 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: women experience the world of deep fake pornography on the internet. 585 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: It really examines you know, what happens when people recognize 586 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: you from something like that. And you talked about how 587 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: it wound up being this really harrowing experience for you 588 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: because you hadn't given the character enough detail that she 589 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: didn't feel very much like you. And I know you 590 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 1: can see yourself in this book. So is it important 591 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: to feel that or is it terrifying to feel that? 592 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: How do you think that connects across all these years. 593 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think I like work where I can feel 594 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 2: the real woman behind it, and sometimes that's just total 595 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 2: fiction and she's just very alive and present. Sometimes that 596 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: is a sort of auto fiction where you get that 597 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 2: exciting feeling of you're like, this all really happened. I'm 598 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 2: too obsessed with like plot and characters to get anywhere 599 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 2: with that, you know, like part of the magic for 600 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: me is in making it up. I mean, for this 601 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 2: book is a little different because I didn't name the 602 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: character and I left her job kind of lose, so 603 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 2: you could map her on me, which I sort of do. Anyways, 604 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: I'm always flipping to the author photo and I'm like, 605 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 2: that's her, whether or not she looks anything like the 606 00:40:53,680 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 2: way the narrator was described. I just thought, well, give 607 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: that I have this weird life where I have been 608 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: in some of the movies that I've written, and given 609 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: that people love to conflate, especially women, with the narrator. 610 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: Instead of fighting against that and being like, she has 611 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 2: red hair, she's an architect, she you know, creating all 612 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 2: this fictional stuff, why don't I kind of be a 613 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 2: little generous and loan my character some things about me, 614 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: just basic things, nothing crazily specific, and then go ahead 615 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 2: and write the fiction and let people enjoy the weird 616 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 2: frision that comes from that, the energy. There's something that 617 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: we like in that, And given that I really want 618 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 2: to tell this story, like, I think that's to its benefit. 619 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The potential for transference, I think gives 620 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: it it's like a little bit pixie dust, you know, 621 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: because it feels sparkly, it feels real. Yeah. Yeah, I 622 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,439 Speaker 1: read that you have a rule that after you write 623 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: a book, you make a movie, or you try to 624 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: do vice versa. Is that true? Do you really try to, 625 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, pluck yourself out of one thing and go 626 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 1: into a different medium to clean out your brain? 627 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 2: Well, I mean the thing is writing is kind of 628 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 2: the mainstay in both those things. It's it's the bedrock. 629 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 2: So I'm always writing. I'm even writing, you know what 630 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 2: I'm doing performance or or more art art. But there 631 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 2: is something about like maybe not sort of not wanting 632 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 2: to lose my membership in those worlds, not in a 633 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 2: career sense, but in a creative sense. It's like, well, 634 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 2: it takes a long time to write a book and 635 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 2: to make a movie, and if you do two movies 636 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 2: in a row, then you know where there is that 637 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: fiction writer soul, you know, And so it's a bit 638 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 2: of a I mean, if I could have two of me, 639 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 2: that would be cool. Yeah. I think maybe as I 640 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 2: get older, there merging a little bit. There's something so 641 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 2: like I somehow feel like I got a kind of 642 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 2: performance film thing into this book. I know it's just 643 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 2: a book. I understand that it's an object, but there's 644 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 2: a way in which I feel like there's an acceleration 645 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,439 Speaker 2: or a merging. And so I'm curious. I'm not sure 646 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 2: if my next thing. I feel like somehow it'll be 647 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 2: everything and I won't have to choose. We'll see, I'll 648 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 2: get back to you. 649 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but there's that thing again of it's about 650 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: to be another first day at school, and that's so exciting, 651 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: I know. 652 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 653 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: So you sit, you know, with this beautiful body of work, 654 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: and you know, as you mentioned, it's film, and there 655 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,879 Speaker 1: are the books you've written, and the short stories you've 656 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: published and like very serious art. You've exhibited art with 657 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: curators out around the world. It's it's so inspiring for 658 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: someone like me, And I wonder for you, being you know, 659 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: the nucleus of this world, what feels like it's next 660 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: from this vantage point in this year, what would you 661 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: say is your work in progress? 662 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 2: M I feel like I'm a total baby on relationships, 663 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 2: Like I that's my most work in progress side of myself. 664 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 2: And so I'm I feel like I'm making decisions in 665 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 2: a new way as to like where to put my 666 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 2: time what's valuable. You know. The goal used to always 667 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 2: be work, and I was like, well, you know, it's 668 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 2: all fine as long as I get my time to work, 669 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 2: which felt kind of like I was lucky in that respect, 670 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 2: you know, like what a lucky woman to get to 671 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 2: do her creative work. And now I I just see 672 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 2: that there was another side of me that was like 673 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 2: semi starving and like waiting its turn, you know, and 674 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 2: then like and now can't be like put back in 675 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 2: the box. So it's really interesting figuring out how to 676 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 2: do all this, and you know, and I've I should whatever. 677 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,760 Speaker 2: I'm just had really wonderful formative relationships. But I feel 678 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 2: like I'm kind of present in a new way and 679 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 2: it's kind of psychedelic, Like it's kind of like like 680 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 2: sometimes I really am like did I did I eat 681 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 2: a gummy? Like no, I didn't, Like I'm I am 682 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 2: not tripping here, Like this is just like my brain 683 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 2: is expanding and I'm having new feelings and which is 684 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,959 Speaker 2: funny because I kind of thought I was like sort 685 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 2: of an expert at intimacy and vulnerability, like that was 686 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:30,760 Speaker 2: sort of my thing. So that's that's a great feeling. Actually, 687 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 2: to be like have that be the work in progress 688 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,280 Speaker 2: and then have sort of the confidence that comes from 689 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 2: also knowing I can process all of that in my work. 690 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah that's so special. Yeah, I don't know. I hear 691 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 1: so much of what you're talking about and the shift 692 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: at fifty and I I just know I had such 693 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: a big shift at forty really forty one like changed 694 00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: my whole life. Yeah, and I always sort of felt, 695 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: well the way you're describing, like, oh, vulnerability is my thing. 696 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: Relationships are my thing, Like that's what I do. And 697 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: I've really begun to process the solitude or aloneness that 698 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: is required to make these projects, because you know, they 699 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: pull you out of your life. You go on the location, 700 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: you leave everything, and I'm like, oh man, I'm really 701 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: good at present intimacy, but like when I'm gone, I'm gone, 702 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: and it is it's like adding this whole new layer 703 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: into relationships in my life and also how I know myself. 704 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: And I'm like, WHOA. I looked at a friend of 705 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: mine the other day and I was like, you you 706 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 1: text a lot with everyone, Like what are you texting about? 707 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: What do people text about? Because this is what I do, 708 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: Like I sit, I want to talk, but like on 709 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: the phone with the typing, like what are you typing about? 710 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: And he just fell out of his chair laughing at me, 711 00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, but I mean it. 712 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 2: When I read your text, I always and I always like, 713 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 2: I start getting the nervous feeling like is this gonna 714 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 2: last forever? This this back and forth? And then I 715 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 2: feel like when I put the heart on, that means done? Right? 716 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 2: Does that universally acknowledge? Like the heart is like I'm out, 717 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 2: but in a in a kind way, like a punctuation mark. 718 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 2: Not everyone reads it that way, though, No, No, I 719 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 2: gotta be careful with those hearts. 720 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta be careful with the hearts. I realize 721 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm apparently a rare bird in the group because I 722 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: just FaceTime everyone. I'm like, if you're going to talk, 723 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: let's talk. I want to talk because the typing it 724 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: makes me so uncomfortable, and everyone's like, you're a boomer. 725 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 2: I'm like, I guess here we are. That's a very 726 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 2: that's kind of a power move, Sophia, to just FaceTime, 727 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 2: you know, to just there you are, there you are. 728 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 2: I'm sit in the cup holder. 729 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: Let's drive around the city and have a chat. 730 00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 2: Oh. I love that. 731 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe that winds up being like a scene we 732 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: shoot some day. 733 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good shot from the cup holder. 734 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really like it. Yeah. Well, thank you. It's 735 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: been so special to be able to ask you so 736 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: many questions, and they really have been a long time coming. 737 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: And I can't wait. I can't wait to tell Hillary 738 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: that I interviewed. She's going to lose to me. 739 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 2: Thank you. 740 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much, and good luck with the 741 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: book and everything. I know that our friends who have 742 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: enjoyed this at home as much as I have today 743 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: or are going to be hitting their local bookstores and 744 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: diving into this along with me and our whole little crew. 745 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 2: Thank you.