WEBVTT - Perennial Possibilities for Agriculture 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.560 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.560 the B and EF podcast. So today let's step outside 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:11.040 the office and let's go down to the farm. Agriculture, forestry, 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.120 and land use account for twenty three percent of global 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.680 greenhouse gas emissions. And given how essential this sector is, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.239 after all, you and I both like food, action is 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.919 desperately needed in what is one of the most climate 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.320 sensitive areas of our economy. In today's episode, we look 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.680 at one potential solution within the agriculture space perennial crops. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.200 While most crops and cereals have an annual life cycle, 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.120 perennials have a multi year lifespan and with that longer 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.800 life comes the possibility of a reduced carbon footprint. But 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.400 can perennials compete with their annual counterparts and just how 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:47.600 do they work well. To find out more, I sat 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.160 down with Caroline Lewis. She's an analyst from bnaf's newest team, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.480 the Sustainable Agriculture Group. Together we discuss a range of topics, 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.120 including the different varieties of perennials, how they breed and 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.760 where there be farmed. We also discuss how perennial crops 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:07.280 could actually aid, carbon sequestration, the intellectual property ownership of 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.600 the technology, and the players behind the market. If you 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.480 like this podcast, make sure to subscribe to receive updates 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:15.720 for future episodes, and if you're listening to us on 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.680 Apple Podcasts or Spotify, consider giving us a review. Today's 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.560 episode was based on research that's found in a research 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:27.360 note from BNAF titled Perennial serials The Root of Regenerative Agriculture, 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.520 and this was written by Caroline Lewis. BNF subscribers will 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.160 be able to access this research note at BNAF, on 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.880 the Bloomberg terminal at BNF dot com, or on our 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.280 mobile app. But right now we get to hear my 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:51.880 conversation with Caroline about perennials. Thank you for joining today. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:53.720 Name problem. I'm glad to be joining you. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.560 So we're going to talk about agriculture, but specifically crop 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.680 rotation or maybe lack thereof. So can you help us 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.960 set the stage a little bit, explain what our options 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.160 are from a crop rotation at a standpoint. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.320 In current systems, there are three primary crops which we 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:13.320 consume globally, so that is wheat, maize, and rice. Those 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.080 are three main crops that are grown worldwide and they 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.800 actually make up about sixty percent of consumed calories globally. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:20.200 Wow. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.320 So those are the three primary crops and some years 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.600 will have those crops grown in fields year on year, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.960 and obviously this creates a huge lack of diversity. So 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.560 that's why crop rotations are important, is to sort of 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.640 bring diversity back into the soils and prevent disease build 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:38.960 up through to the next crop. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.200 And also, I would guess pests are an issue. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.320 Yeah, so pests are an issue, and that's why we've 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:50.040 had the development over recent years of many pesticides and herbicides, 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.120 with ninety eight percent of pesticides not actually reaching their 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.040 target species and being washed out into the rest of 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.640 the environment. So they're having a huge impact. So it's 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.440 really important to bring a diverse mix of crops into 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:04.560 the rotation to prevent this. 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.520 So what are perennial crops then, Yeah. 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.600 So perennial crops are you would have come across perennial 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:15.799 crops in the form of apple trees or blueberries and raspberries, 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.200 those are perennial crops. But what we're looking at here 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.760 are perennial cereals and they're really exciting because they are 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.040 cereal crops that don't need replanting year on year, so 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.119 they survive for anywhere between three and four years. They're 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.080 still in development, so we need to understand this in 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.880 a bit more detail, but yeah, they can essentially survive 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.720 for multiple years without being replanted, which is really exciting. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.200 You stay, there's still in development. Does that mean that 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.400 they are genetically modified crops and therefore, sitting here in Europe, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.240 would they be something we'd be allowed to actually plant. 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.120 Yeah, that's a really interesting question. 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.720 So perennial crops have actually been developed over the past 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.560 forty fifty sixty years. They've been in development for a 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:00.560 long time, and actually they are developed using selective breeding techniques, 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.560 so it's not GM And one of the key institutes 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.840 in the States, called the Land Institute, are developing perennial wheat, 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.960 and then another institute called Wan University in China is 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.720 developing perennial rice and that has been one of the 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.279 most successful thus far. 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.320 So you've explained what perennial crops are, but really, what 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.280 is the existing problem with the rotation? Why is this 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.240 such a hot button issue to fix? 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.480 So one of the key issues with annual crops is 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.520 the fact that they are very intensive, and intensive systems 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.359 are not going to be able to sustain themselves going forward. 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.400 So we've got issues around water use, we've got issues 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.480 around land use change, and we've also got a huge 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.120 issue with being able to provide enough food with the 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.839 land that we've got. And one of the things with 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.839 intensive systems is that we are degrading a huge amount 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.560 of soils. And one thing that we're hoping perennial crops 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.440 could do is solve this issue. And actually, because of 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.320 their certain traits, so they've got bigger roots and larger shoots. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.440 What we're thinking one of the key attributes here is 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.600 that they can grow in more extreme environments and hopefully 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.599 rebuild soils so regenerate those areas which have been used intensively. 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.640 So it seems like that those that are developing this 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.440 space are thinking about it from an economic standpoint as well, 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.880 because you want to be able to continue to use 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.600 the land for a longer period of time. And when 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:31.440 you talk about intensive farming and soil degradation and the 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.599 issues that are facing farmers, are these facing them in 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.559 the next three to five years, seven to ten years 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.560 or longer, because I would imagine that if it's in 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.000 the nearer term as a farmer, you'd be more interested 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.839 in making changes and experimenting than if it felt like 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.279 a far out and distant problem that might affect the 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:49.960 next farmer. 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.920 So it's actually estimated that the average farmer will have 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.359 sixty harvests yet left in the way that we're managing 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.840 soils currently, So that's sixty years of agric culture in 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:02.880 the way that we are doing it today. So there 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.159 is definitely need for change. Sixty years may sound like 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.919 a long time, but you've got one chance once a 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.200 year as a farmer to do all of those steps, 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.680 So from planting to harvest, it's one opportunity. And I 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.080 think a lot of farmers are seeing that they need 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.400 to change and do something different. And you've got a 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.400 lot of people moving towards these mentail systems and direct 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.039 drill systems because they're seeing that they're having an effect 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.000 on their land and on their soil. And this is 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.839 a change that people are recognizing. And I think the 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.279 big barrier that we're experiencing with perennials is the fact 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.719 that their yield is a lot lower than annual crops, 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.320 and that's why we need investment and development in the 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.920 gene editing aspect of it. Essentially, we need that to 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.320 grow so that yields can catch up with annual crops. 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:53.560 Earlier in the show, at the beginning, you reference the 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.400 different types of crops that the majority of the world 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.960 eats in quite high volume. So rice, wheat, and maize. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.839 Let's go into each of those in a bit of detail. 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.400 So what is the well the problem and more importantly, 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.280 what is the potential for employing these methods with rice specifically. 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.080 So rice has been the most successful of the perennial 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.360 crops under development today, and these actually have a higher 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.880 yield than their annual counterpart, and this is only very slight, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.920 but essentially they are just as competitive. And one of 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.600 the big opportunities with perennial rise is they can reduce 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.480 methane emissions and also reduce those carbon emissions. It's been 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.000 estimated that this is about half they half those emissions, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.960 which is huge. They're grown across several areas in Southeast 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.920 Asia and we're expecting for this to continue in their growth. 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.520 Okay, so then how about wheat. I'm originally from the 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.440 US and I definitely think of wheat farming is one 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.200 of those things when I think of large farms and 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.600 these at scale methods with tilling, that is definitely something 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.080 I picture in my head. How is the innovation coming 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:02.120 in that regard. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.640 With wheat, it has been a bit more of a struggle. 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.240 One thing which is worth highlighting with the rice crop 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.000 is they have a natural ability to regrow and what 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:17.840 the selective breeding programs have done is enhance that regrowth gene. However, 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.080 with wheats, we really don't know what is controlling the regrowth. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.800 As I said, there are several genes that are controlling 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:28.000 this element of regrowth. So they've actually got a very 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.840 low yield right now. I think their yield is around 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.480 zero point eight of a ton per hector compared to 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.080 six point four tons per hector of annual wheat. So 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.559 you can see there's a huge difference there in yield. However, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.680 one thing that I'm hopeful for is that this crop 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:49.280 will continue to develop and improve over the coming years. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.400 And then last but not least maze and actually I 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:55.600 don't know what MAZE goes into. I'm going to really 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.720 start at the very top level there. What are we 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:00.600 consuming mays for and what does it make? 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.040 Maize? Could make your corn flakes? 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.679 Oh right, well, why I thought that was weak? Yes mazes. Okay, 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.480 maze is making my morning breakfast today. I ate it 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.560 and not didn't realize. Okay, so maize. Wow, that's really sad. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:19.560 So maize. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:25.080 They have developed perennial maize, but they are very uncertain 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.440 about whether it's safety eat. They haven't yet put it 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:32.280 in field trials, so essentially it's in its infancy. It's 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.240 right at the bottom in terms of development. However, they 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.319 have seen that it can regrow, and they've also seen 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.920 huge potential in terms of its resilience. They've seen essentially 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.880 because they're breeding it with a wild counterpart, that's how 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.920 the breeding program works. They've seen that it's actually inherited 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.400 a load of traits from the wild parent and it's 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:58.080 become resilient to about seven major diseases in the crop. 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.920 And they've estimated that this could be worth around four 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:06.280 billion in terms of growth and yield improvements to come 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:07.079 in May. 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.480 So it's a super exciting crop. We just need to 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:10.280 develop it. 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.760 So you reference that it may not be safe to eat, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.800 please expand on that, because I want to know what 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.360 might be happening to my morning corn flakes, and you 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.880 know what sort of hoops I guess from a government 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:23.960 regulation standpoint, they're going to need to go through in 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.480 order to prove that it is. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.360 So it all has to go via the USDA and 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.080 get approved from them for consumption in the States, and 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.920 usually once it's gone through the USDA, it's approved. In 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.800 many other nations, they've sort of got fairly stringent regulations. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:41.640 However, the one. 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:46.240 Thing with perennial maize is that because they're mixing lots 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.840 of other genes together, they kind of need to profile 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.480 it and check that it's safe before it's sent to 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:52.360 human consumption. 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:54.560 So what they're waiting for is. 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.640 For firstly for a successful crop to be developed before 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.800 they take that step, and then once that is achieved, 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.080 they can go through the approval process. 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:05.520 I wanted to know where in the world we're seeing 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.160 uptake because I imagine that barmeerstocks to each other and 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.320 within certain communities, certain things are getting traction or not 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.400 getting traction, and that may be hyperregional. 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:18.079 So definitely with perennial rise, that has gained traction around 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.240 South Asia, so across China, some parts of India, and 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.680 actually we are seeing it being grown in Uganda as well, 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.640 so that's exciting. It could reach parts of Africa over. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:28.320 The next few years. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:33.520 And with perennial wheat, we're seeing that grown across Kansas, Wisconsin, 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.839 several parts of the states now with perennial maze that 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:43.239 is yet to be developed. They have got a perennial 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:48.520 maze variety. However, the yield is extremely low, and to 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.280 prove that it is perennial, you actually need at least 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.360 three or four years of it being grown, so it 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.520 takes quite a long time to determine whether it is 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.400 firstly a successful crop, whether it's truly perennial. So I 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.520 think hopefully you can start to see here how it's 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.720 actually such a long process. It's not like you can 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.040 say after six months, oh, we know if it's a 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.959 success or not, because obviously it takes a long time 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.480 to get around to harvesting and growing. 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.520 So looking at carbon sequestration and the benefits the perennial 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.640 crops can really have, can you explain the process and 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.640 how perennials really do this, What is the science behind it? 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.600 Yeah, and that's what's so exciting about perennials is they 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.840 do offer a huge opportunity to sequest a carbon. And 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:36.000 essentially how carbon sequestration works is it's locking up organic 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.959 matter and soil. Carbon in the soil, so it's taking 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:43.600 atmospheric carbon through a photosynthesizing plant and as it grows 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.720 actually in its biomass, that is locking up the carbon. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.720 And this is one of the key opportunities that perennials 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.800 hold because their roots can reach between two and two 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.520 and a half meters deep in length, so that's a 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:01.320 huge amount of mass underground. So that is why perennials 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.440 offer such a huge opportunity to sequest a carbon. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.880 So to put it really simply, if the carbon is 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.680 in all of these plants and they're in the ground longer, 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:12.800 it's just it's not in the air. There's less carbon 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:13.280 in the air. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:14.240 Yeah, precisely. 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:18.120 And the way in which it transforms into that more 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.200 stable carbon is through decomposition. So you have all of 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.120 your microbes working for you breaking down that material. Some 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.280 of it will be loss of the atmosphere. About two 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.280 thirds of the carbon which is locked in plants is 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.800 actually released back into the atmosphere through decomposition, but a 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.200 third of it is retained in the soils. 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.520 I mean, this is all part of a normal natural cycle. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.200 So when you're talking about disturbing the soil, replanting and 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.360 it releasing back into the air, how do perennials like 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.160 truly reduce in addition to their roots and how much 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.200 they can hold over time, how do they really reduce 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:51.360 other forms of release? 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.440 Yeah, so due to this no tillage method, obviously, it 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.600 means that there's lack of disturbance of the soil. And 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.360 what happens in normal system is they go through and 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.319 plow up the fields and as they do that locked 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.720 up carbon in the soil is exposed to the atmosphere 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.640 and this carbon oxidizes and is released as carbon dioxide. 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.280 But with a perennial crop, obviously you're not turning the soils, 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.400 and this means that more carbon is locked up. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.400 So when I'm thinking about farming methods and I'm actually 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.360 thinking about my food sources, one of the things that 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.480 comes up is methane, in particular in regard to livestock. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.760 And often we use the term carbon synonymously with one 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.560 of the lead causes of climate change and therefore, it's 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.240 all about carbon reduction and decarbonization. Is it really carbon 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.480 in this space or is it methane and other greenhouse 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.520 gases that we're actually keeping an eye on When it comes. 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.320 To crops, that's a really interesting question. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.480 And approximately sixty percent of row crops that we grow 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.760 across the world go to feed animals, so we can 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.920 see how that is a huge link between livestock and crops, 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.400 and the thing that we are talking about here is 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.280 a mixture of to actually we're reducing emissions that come 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.200 as a result of annual cropping via this perennial system. So, 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.560 for example, it's been seen in the perennial rice systems 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.240 that there's been a sixty percent reduction in inputs and labor. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.720 So obviously, by reducing inputs, you're going to be reducing emissions. 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.600 You're applying fewer fertilizers, fewer pesticide, and you're also using 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.800 less fuel when you're growing these crops. But when it 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.280 comes to the livestock and methane side, we've also seen 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.960 with perennial wheat that you can graze that as well 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.400 as harvest it. It has this what they call a 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.680 dual purpose so it means that you can graze it 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.240 and it's not having a detrimental effect on the yield. 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.680 So there's actually sort of like a two sided impact there, 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:44.640 which is exciting. 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.120 That is exciting. We've talked a lot about three specific crops. 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:49.920 Are there any other crops that I should be keeping 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:50.360 my eye on? 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.160 Yes? I think there are. 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.760 We have seen some exciting movements around Perennial Barley and 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.600 this is actually being developed across some Nordic countries by Carlsberg, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.080 So I think we could see some movement there. And 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.560 it's not just Bali. The Land Institute are working across 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.080 many other cereals as well. 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.440 There are government bodies that will ultimately decide whether or 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.440 not this is something that reaches all of our tables breakfast, lunch, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.640 or dinner. And then how about the companies that are 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.000 actually involved in this. So let's say if the US 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.880 FDA essentially sets the tone for adoption in many parts 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.800 of the world, what are the companies that are really 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.320 bringing this to scale? Actually, if you could walk me 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.520 through upstream and downstream and who's really got to handle 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:32.840 on this. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:37.400 So it really varies between the crops. There's different bodies 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.240 managing each one mostly because they are grown as he said, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:44.000 they're grain regionally. For example, with perennial wheat, this is 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.680 managed and developed by the Land Institute. 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:47.800 So they are. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.480 Developing perennial wheat and they're also developing the perennial maze 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:51.880 as well. 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.440 What is the Land Institute. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.680 It is an non for profit institute which is looking 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:04.600 at developing perennial Cropskay truly focuses on perennials and they 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:10.119 are the key people behind perennial wheat and maize. However, 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.119 they are also forming partnerships with both growers and supply 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:19.520 chain buyers. So Kanza, which is the variety of perennial 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.440 wheat which the Lands Institute is growing, they have copyrighted 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.640 that name and that is grown across one than six 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.520 hundred hectares in the States currently, so it's. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:31.479 Not a huge area. 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.479 It's really in its infancy. But what those growers are 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.240 looking to do is to target a premium market to 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.960 sell that crop, and what the Land Institute want to 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:42.359 do is they want to help them do that and 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.960 they have been connecting them with suppliers further down the 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:48.680 streams such as General Mills, who a few years ago 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:53.360 invested some money to help the kickoff of Kernza across 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.400 many areas. However, are not so involved anymore because there 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.440 were unfortunately a few years of poor harvest and poor 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.520 crops across the states. So they've had to withdraw their funding, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.600 but we never know they might come back. 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.400 So then I'm thinking about the economics, and I'm thinking 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.280 about one of the topics it's very hotly discussed at 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.320 the moment, which is voluntary carbon credits. So in the 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.800 carbon credit space, there are the questions around additionality. Are 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.399 there projects that are actually going to take carbon out 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.680 of the air and put it into the ground, perhaps, 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.040 just like in this circumstance that companies that are emitting 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.520 can actually pay for If we're at a place where 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.840 these farming practices are taking off on their own, I 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.560 certainly don't see the additionality there in terms of paying 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.480 for it. However, in this development phase, is there a 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.840 place for carbon credit schemes to essentially drive more favorable 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:46.000 economics for perennial crops and for them to you know, 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.880 serve I think everyone's familiar with this idea of tree planting, 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.920 but how about crop planting as a form of carbon credits. 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.199 Yeah, I think there certainly is the opportunity with perennial crops. 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.679 We can actually see it happening at the moment with 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:03.120 annuals and have this addition of sequestering a lot more 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.840 carbon and requiring a lot fewer inputs. So one thing 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.639 that has developed over the past six months, six twelve 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.760 months is the Land Institute have been in contact with 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.840 the USDA and they are actually putting KERNSA into the 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.320 Comet Farm System, which is the life cycle assessment tool 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.200 for agriculture in the US so that will enable carbon 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.080 assessments of KERNSA and going forward, this could mean that 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:35.119 it is included in voluntary carbon markets potentially moving forward, 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.080 and it could mean that growers can receive a monetary 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:40.960 payment for growing their perennial crops. 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.960 Just driving back to the economics, we've referenced the potential 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.240 for carbon credits. We've referenced some of the companies that 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.119 are actually looking at this as well as nonprofits. But 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.200 in the government space, there is government approval, But are 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.280 there governments that are actively trying to promote this sort 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.600 of development because they also see the scale of the problem. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.520 Yeah, I think that's a great question. 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.080 And in the States they are looking at bringing perennial 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.679 crops into some of their conservation schemes. This is the 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.119 only example I've seen in the UK. Here we do 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.200 have schemes where perennial crops would fit in, but they're 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.840 not explicitly listed. And I also think it's something that 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.280 growers need to recognize that these could actually have a 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.880 benefit to their farming systems, you know, build the resilience 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:30.200 in their soils and also sequesta carbon. So I think 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.160 that's the direction I see it moving in in terms 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.680 of who has some responsibility there. But also interestingly, there 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.600 are quite a few barriers in the States with growing 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.840 these crops, and that's around the insurance of crops there. 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.160 So essentially, if you grow an annual crop, you can 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.840 get insurance for that crop, but if it fails or 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:56.920 if the yield is lower significantly lower than other areas. However, 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.040 perennial crops are not listed for insurance, so that obviously 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:02.280 creates a big barrier. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:07.719 So farming is a highly fragmented space from the grower's perspective, 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.400 and what are some of the barriers that would actually 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.919 or are actually stopping these methods from getting traction at 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:14.440 that level. 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.720 Yeah, so I think one of the barriers is definitely investment. 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.760 There is a lack of investment and interest in these crops. 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.760 So investment in the technology or investment in education and awareness, I. 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:27.440 Think a mixture. 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.680 I think investment in the technology to make these crops 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:36.320 higher yielding is probably the first key action that needs 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.960 to be taken. But then following that actually getting growers 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.879 to understand that the tradition of crops being annual isn't 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.600