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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on

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Speaker 1: the B and EF podcast. So today let's step outside

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Speaker 1: the office and let's go down to the farm. Agriculture, forestry,

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Speaker 1: and land use account for twenty three percent of global

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions. And given how essential this sector is,

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Speaker 1: after all, you and I both like food, action is

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Speaker 1: desperately needed in what is one of the most climate

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Speaker 1: sensitive areas of our economy. In today's episode, we look

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Speaker 1: at one potential solution within the agriculture space perennial crops.

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Speaker 1: While most crops and cereals have an annual life cycle,

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Speaker 1: perennials have a multi year lifespan and with that longer

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Speaker 1: life comes the possibility of a reduced carbon footprint. But

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Speaker 1: can perennials compete with their annual counterparts and just how

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Speaker 1: do they work well. To find out more, I sat

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Speaker 1: down with Caroline Lewis. She's an analyst from bnaf's newest team,

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Speaker 1: the Sustainable Agriculture Group. Together we discuss a range of topics,

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Speaker 1: including the different varieties of perennials, how they breed and

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Speaker 1: where there be farmed. We also discuss how perennial crops

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Speaker 1: could actually aid, carbon sequestration, the intellectual property ownership of

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Speaker 1: the technology, and the players behind the market. If you

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Speaker 1: like this podcast, make sure to subscribe to receive updates

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Speaker 1: for future episodes, and if you're listening to us on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or Spotify, consider giving us a review. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode was based on research that's found in a research

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Speaker 1: note from BNAF titled Perennial serials The Root of Regenerative Agriculture,

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Speaker 1: and this was written by Caroline Lewis. BNF subscribers will

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Speaker 1: be able to access this research note at BNAF, on

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal at BNF dot com, or on our

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Speaker 1: mobile app. But right now we get to hear my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Caroline about perennials. Thank you for joining today.

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Speaker 2: Name problem. I'm glad to be joining you.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about agriculture, but specifically crop

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Speaker 1: rotation or maybe lack thereof. So can you help us

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Speaker 1: set the stage a little bit, explain what our options

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Speaker 1: are from a crop rotation at a standpoint.

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Speaker 3: In current systems, there are three primary crops which we

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Speaker 3: consume globally, so that is wheat, maize, and rice. Those

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Speaker 3: are three main crops that are grown worldwide and they

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Speaker 3: actually make up about sixty percent of consumed calories globally.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So those are the three primary crops and some years

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Speaker 3: will have those crops grown in fields year on year,

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Speaker 3: and obviously this creates a huge lack of diversity. So

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Speaker 3: that's why crop rotations are important, is to sort of

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Speaker 3: bring diversity back into the soils and prevent disease build

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Speaker 3: up through to the next crop.

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Speaker 1: And also, I would guess pests are an issue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so pests are an issue, and that's why we've

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Speaker 3: had the development over recent years of many pesticides and herbicides,

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Speaker 3: with ninety eight percent of pesticides not actually reaching their

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Speaker 3: target species and being washed out into the rest of

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Speaker 3: the environment. So they're having a huge impact. So it's

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Speaker 3: really important to bring a diverse mix of crops into

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Speaker 3: the rotation to prevent this.

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Speaker 1: So what are perennial crops then, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So perennial crops are you would have come across perennial

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Speaker 3: crops in the form of apple trees or blueberries and raspberries,

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Speaker 3: those are perennial crops. But what we're looking at here

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Speaker 3: are perennial cereals and they're really exciting because they are

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Speaker 3: cereal crops that don't need replanting year on year, so

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Speaker 3: they survive for anywhere between three and four years. They're

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Speaker 3: still in development, so we need to understand this in

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Speaker 3: a bit more detail, but yeah, they can essentially survive

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Speaker 3: for multiple years without being replanted, which is really exciting.

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Speaker 1: You stay, there's still in development. Does that mean that

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Speaker 1: they are genetically modified crops and therefore, sitting here in Europe,

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Speaker 1: would they be something we'd be allowed to actually plant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting question.

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Speaker 3: So perennial crops have actually been developed over the past

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Speaker 3: forty fifty sixty years. They've been in development for a

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Speaker 3: long time, and actually they are developed using selective breeding techniques,

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Speaker 3: so it's not GM And one of the key institutes

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Speaker 3: in the States, called the Land Institute, are developing perennial wheat,

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Speaker 3: and then another institute called Wan University in China is

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Speaker 3: developing perennial rice and that has been one of the

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Speaker 3: most successful thus far.

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Speaker 1: So you've explained what perennial crops are, but really, what

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Speaker 1: is the existing problem with the rotation? Why is this

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Speaker 1: such a hot button issue to fix?

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Speaker 3: So one of the key issues with annual crops is

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Speaker 3: the fact that they are very intensive, and intensive systems

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Speaker 3: are not going to be able to sustain themselves going forward.

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Speaker 3: So we've got issues around water use, we've got issues

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Speaker 3: around land use change, and we've also got a huge

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Speaker 3: issue with being able to provide enough food with the

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Speaker 3: land that we've got. And one of the things with

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Speaker 3: intensive systems is that we are degrading a huge amount

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Speaker 3: of soils. And one thing that we're hoping perennial crops

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Speaker 3: could do is solve this issue. And actually, because of

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Speaker 3: their certain traits, so they've got bigger roots and larger shoots.

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Speaker 3: What we're thinking one of the key attributes here is

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Speaker 3: that they can grow in more extreme environments and hopefully

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Speaker 3: rebuild soils so regenerate those areas which have been used intensively.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like that those that are developing this

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Speaker 1: space are thinking about it from an economic standpoint as well,

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Speaker 1: because you want to be able to continue to use

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Speaker 1: the land for a longer period of time. And when

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Speaker 1: you talk about intensive farming and soil degradation and the

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Speaker 1: issues that are facing farmers, are these facing them in

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Speaker 1: the next three to five years, seven to ten years

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Speaker 1: or longer, because I would imagine that if it's in

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Speaker 1: the nearer term as a farmer, you'd be more interested

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Speaker 1: in making changes and experimenting than if it felt like

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Speaker 1: a far out and distant problem that might affect the

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Speaker 1: next farmer.

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Speaker 3: So it's actually estimated that the average farmer will have

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Speaker 3: sixty harvests yet left in the way that we're managing

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Speaker 3: soils currently, So that's sixty years of agric culture in

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Speaker 3: the way that we are doing it today. So there

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Speaker 3: is definitely need for change. Sixty years may sound like

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Speaker 3: a long time, but you've got one chance once a

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Speaker 3: year as a farmer to do all of those steps,

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Speaker 3: So from planting to harvest, it's one opportunity. And I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of farmers are seeing that they need

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Speaker 3: to change and do something different. And you've got a

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Speaker 3: lot of people moving towards these mentail systems and direct

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Speaker 3: drill systems because they're seeing that they're having an effect

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Speaker 3: on their land and on their soil. And this is

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Speaker 3: a change that people are recognizing. And I think the

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Speaker 3: big barrier that we're experiencing with perennials is the fact

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Speaker 3: that their yield is a lot lower than annual crops,

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Speaker 3: and that's why we need investment and development in the

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Speaker 3: gene editing aspect of it. Essentially, we need that to

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Speaker 3: grow so that yields can catch up with annual crops.

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Speaker 1: Earlier in the show, at the beginning, you reference the

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Speaker 1: different types of crops that the majority of the world

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Speaker 1: eats in quite high volume. So rice, wheat, and maize.

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Speaker 1: Let's go into each of those in a bit of detail.

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Speaker 1: So what is the well the problem and more importantly,

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Speaker 1: what is the potential for employing these methods with rice specifically.

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Speaker 3: So rice has been the most successful of the perennial

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Speaker 3: crops under development today, and these actually have a higher

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Speaker 3: yield than their annual counterpart, and this is only very slight,

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Speaker 3: but essentially they are just as competitive. And one of

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Speaker 3: the big opportunities with perennial rise is they can reduce

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Speaker 3: methane emissions and also reduce those carbon emissions. It's been

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Speaker 3: estimated that this is about half they half those emissions,

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Speaker 3: which is huge. They're grown across several areas in Southeast

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Speaker 3: Asia and we're expecting for this to continue in their growth.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so then how about wheat. I'm originally from the

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Speaker 1: US and I definitely think of wheat farming is one

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Speaker 1: of those things when I think of large farms and

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Speaker 1: these at scale methods with tilling, that is definitely something

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Speaker 1: I picture in my head. How is the innovation coming

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Speaker 1: in that regard.

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Speaker 3: With wheat, it has been a bit more of a struggle.

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Speaker 3: One thing which is worth highlighting with the rice crop

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Speaker 3: is they have a natural ability to regrow and what

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Speaker 3: the selective breeding programs have done is enhance that regrowth gene. However,

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Speaker 3: with wheats, we really don't know what is controlling the regrowth.

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Speaker 3: As I said, there are several genes that are controlling

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Speaker 3: this element of regrowth. So they've actually got a very

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Speaker 3: low yield right now. I think their yield is around

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Speaker 3: zero point eight of a ton per hector compared to

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Speaker 3: six point four tons per hector of annual wheat. So

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Speaker 3: you can see there's a huge difference there in yield. However,

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Speaker 3: one thing that I'm hopeful for is that this crop

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Speaker 3: will continue to develop and improve over the coming years.

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Speaker 1: And then last but not least maze and actually I

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Speaker 1: don't know what MAZE goes into. I'm going to really

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Speaker 1: start at the very top level there. What are we

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Speaker 1: consuming mays for and what does it make?

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Speaker 2: Maize? Could make your corn flakes?

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Speaker 1: Oh right, well, why I thought that was weak? Yes mazes. Okay,

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Speaker 1: maze is making my morning breakfast today. I ate it

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Speaker 1: and not didn't realize. Okay, so maize. Wow, that's really sad.

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Speaker 2: So maize.

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Speaker 3: They have developed perennial maize, but they are very uncertain

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Speaker 3: about whether it's safety eat. They haven't yet put it

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Speaker 3: in field trials, so essentially it's in its infancy. It's

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Speaker 3: right at the bottom in terms of development. However, they

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Speaker 3: have seen that it can regrow, and they've also seen

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Speaker 3: huge potential in terms of its resilience. They've seen essentially

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Speaker 3: because they're breeding it with a wild counterpart, that's how

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Speaker 3: the breeding program works. They've seen that it's actually inherited

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Speaker 3: a load of traits from the wild parent and it's

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Speaker 3: become resilient to about seven major diseases in the crop.

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Speaker 3: And they've estimated that this could be worth around four

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Speaker 3: billion in terms of growth and yield improvements to come

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Speaker 3: in May.

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Speaker 2: So it's a super exciting crop. We just need to

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Speaker 2: develop it.

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Speaker 1: So you reference that it may not be safe to eat,

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Speaker 1: please expand on that, because I want to know what

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Speaker 1: might be happening to my morning corn flakes, and you

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Speaker 1: know what sort of hoops I guess from a government

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Speaker 1: regulation standpoint, they're going to need to go through in

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Speaker 1: order to prove that it is.

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Speaker 3: So it all has to go via the USDA and

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Speaker 3: get approved from them for consumption in the States, and

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Speaker 3: usually once it's gone through the USDA, it's approved. In

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Speaker 3: many other nations, they've sort of got fairly stringent regulations.

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Speaker 2: However, the one.

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Speaker 3: Thing with perennial maize is that because they're mixing lots

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Speaker 3: of other genes together, they kind of need to profile

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Speaker 3: it and check that it's safe before it's sent to

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Speaker 3: human consumption.

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Speaker 2: So what they're waiting for is.

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Speaker 3: For firstly for a successful crop to be developed before

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Speaker 3: they take that step, and then once that is achieved,

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Speaker 3: they can go through the approval process.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know where in the world we're seeing

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Speaker 1: uptake because I imagine that barmeerstocks to each other and

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Speaker 1: within certain communities, certain things are getting traction or not

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Speaker 1: getting traction, and that may be hyperregional.

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Speaker 3: So definitely with perennial rise, that has gained traction around

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Speaker 3: South Asia, so across China, some parts of India, and

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Speaker 3: actually we are seeing it being grown in Uganda as well,

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Speaker 3: so that's exciting. It could reach parts of Africa over.

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Speaker 2: The next few years.

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Speaker 3: And with perennial wheat, we're seeing that grown across Kansas, Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: several parts of the states now with perennial maze that

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Speaker 3: is yet to be developed. They have got a perennial

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Speaker 3: maze variety. However, the yield is extremely low, and to

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Speaker 3: prove that it is perennial, you actually need at least

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Speaker 3: three or four years of it being grown, so it

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Speaker 3: takes quite a long time to determine whether it is

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Speaker 3: firstly a successful crop, whether it's truly perennial. So I

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Speaker 3: think hopefully you can start to see here how it's

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Speaker 3: actually such a long process. It's not like you can

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Speaker 3: say after six months, oh, we know if it's a

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Speaker 3: success or not, because obviously it takes a long time

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Speaker 3: to get around to harvesting and growing.

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Speaker 1: So looking at carbon sequestration and the benefits the perennial

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Speaker 1: crops can really have, can you explain the process and

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Speaker 1: how perennials really do this, What is the science behind it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what's so exciting about perennials is they

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Speaker 3: do offer a huge opportunity to sequest a carbon. And

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Speaker 3: essentially how carbon sequestration works is it's locking up organic

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Speaker 3: matter and soil. Carbon in the soil, so it's taking

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Speaker 3: atmospheric carbon through a photosynthesizing plant and as it grows

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Speaker 3: actually in its biomass, that is locking up the carbon.

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Speaker 3: And this is one of the key opportunities that perennials

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Speaker 3: hold because their roots can reach between two and two

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Speaker 3: and a half meters deep in length, so that's a

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Speaker 3: huge amount of mass underground. So that is why perennials

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Speaker 3: offer such a huge opportunity to sequest a carbon.

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Speaker 1: So to put it really simply, if the carbon is

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Speaker 1: in all of these plants and they're in the ground longer,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's not in the air. There's less carbon

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Speaker 1: in the air.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, precisely.

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Speaker 3: And the way in which it transforms into that more

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Speaker 3: stable carbon is through decomposition. So you have all of

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Speaker 3: your microbes working for you breaking down that material. Some

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Speaker 3: of it will be loss of the atmosphere. About two

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Speaker 3: thirds of the carbon which is locked in plants is

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Speaker 3: actually released back into the atmosphere through decomposition, but a

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Speaker 3: third of it is retained in the soils.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is all part of a normal natural cycle.

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Speaker 1: So when you're talking about disturbing the soil, replanting and

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Speaker 1: it releasing back into the air, how do perennials like

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Speaker 1: truly reduce in addition to their roots and how much

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Speaker 1: they can hold over time, how do they really reduce

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Speaker 1: other forms of release?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so due to this no tillage method, obviously, it

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Speaker 3: means that there's lack of disturbance of the soil. And

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Speaker 3: what happens in normal system is they go through and

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Speaker 3: plow up the fields and as they do that locked

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Speaker 3: up carbon in the soil is exposed to the atmosphere

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Speaker 3: and this carbon oxidizes and is released as carbon dioxide.

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Speaker 3: But with a perennial crop, obviously you're not turning the soils,

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Speaker 3: and this means that more carbon is locked up.

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Speaker 1: So when I'm thinking about farming methods and I'm actually

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Speaker 1: thinking about my food sources, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: comes up is methane, in particular in regard to livestock.

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Speaker 1: And often we use the term carbon synonymously with one

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Speaker 1: of the lead causes of climate change and therefore, it's

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Speaker 1: all about carbon reduction and decarbonization. Is it really carbon

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Speaker 1: in this space or is it methane and other greenhouse

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Speaker 1: gases that we're actually keeping an eye on When it comes.

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Speaker 2: To crops, that's a really interesting question.

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Speaker 3: And approximately sixty percent of row crops that we grow

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Speaker 3: across the world go to feed animals, so we can

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Speaker 3: see how that is a huge link between livestock and crops,

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Speaker 3: and the thing that we are talking about here is

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Speaker 3: a mixture of to actually we're reducing emissions that come

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Speaker 3: as a result of annual cropping via this perennial system. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, it's been seen in the perennial rice systems

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Speaker 3: that there's been a sixty percent reduction in inputs and labor.

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Speaker 3: So obviously, by reducing inputs, you're going to be reducing emissions.

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Speaker 3: You're applying fewer fertilizers, fewer pesticide, and you're also using

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Speaker 3: less fuel when you're growing these crops. But when it

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Speaker 3: comes to the livestock and methane side, we've also seen

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Speaker 3: with perennial wheat that you can graze that as well

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Speaker 3: as harvest it. It has this what they call a

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Speaker 3: dual purpose so it means that you can graze it

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Speaker 3: and it's not having a detrimental effect on the yield.

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Speaker 3: So there's actually sort of like a two sided impact there,

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Speaker 3: which is exciting.

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Speaker 1: That is exciting. We've talked a lot about three specific crops.

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Speaker 1: Are there any other crops that I should be keeping

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Speaker 1: my eye on?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I think there are.

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Speaker 3: We have seen some exciting movements around Perennial Barley and

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Speaker 3: this is actually being developed across some Nordic countries by Carlsberg,

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Speaker 3: So I think we could see some movement there. And

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Speaker 3: it's not just Bali. The Land Institute are working across

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Speaker 3: many other cereals as well.

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Speaker 1: There are government bodies that will ultimately decide whether or

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Speaker 1: not this is something that reaches all of our tables breakfast, lunch,

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Speaker 1: or dinner. And then how about the companies that are

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Speaker 1: actually involved in this. So let's say if the US

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Speaker 1: FDA essentially sets the tone for adoption in many parts

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Speaker 1: of the world, what are the companies that are really

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Speaker 1: bringing this to scale? Actually, if you could walk me

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Speaker 1: through upstream and downstream and who's really got to handle

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Speaker 1: on this.

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Speaker 3: So it really varies between the crops. There's different bodies

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Speaker 3: managing each one mostly because they are grown as he said,

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Speaker 3: they're grain regionally. For example, with perennial wheat, this is

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Speaker 3: managed and developed by the Land Institute.

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Speaker 2: So they are.

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Speaker 3: Developing perennial wheat and they're also developing the perennial maze

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: What is the Land Institute.

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Speaker 3: It is an non for profit institute which is looking

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Speaker 3: at developing perennial Cropskay truly focuses on perennials and they

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Speaker 3: are the key people behind perennial wheat and maize. However,

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Speaker 3: they are also forming partnerships with both growers and supply

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Speaker 3: chain buyers. So Kanza, which is the variety of perennial

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Speaker 3: wheat which the Lands Institute is growing, they have copyrighted

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Speaker 3: that name and that is grown across one than six

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Speaker 3: hundred hectares in the States currently, so it's.

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Speaker 2: Not a huge area.

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Speaker 3: It's really in its infancy. But what those growers are

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Speaker 3: looking to do is to target a premium market to

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Speaker 3: sell that crop, and what the Land Institute want to

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Speaker 3: do is they want to help them do that and

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Speaker 3: they have been connecting them with suppliers further down the

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Speaker 3: streams such as General Mills, who a few years ago

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Speaker 3: invested some money to help the kickoff of Kernza across

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Speaker 3: many areas. However, are not so involved anymore because there

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Speaker 3: were unfortunately a few years of poor harvest and poor

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Speaker 3: crops across the states. So they've had to withdraw their funding,

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Speaker 3: but we never know they might come back.

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Speaker 1: So then I'm thinking about the economics, and I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about one of the topics it's very hotly discussed at

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Speaker 1: the moment, which is voluntary carbon credits. So in the

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Speaker 1: carbon credit space, there are the questions around additionality. Are

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Speaker 1: there projects that are actually going to take carbon out

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Speaker 1: of the air and put it into the ground, perhaps,

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Speaker 1: just like in this circumstance that companies that are emitting

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Speaker 1: can actually pay for If we're at a place where

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Speaker 1: these farming practices are taking off on their own, I

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Speaker 1: certainly don't see the additionality there in terms of paying

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Speaker 1: for it. However, in this development phase, is there a

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Speaker 1: place for carbon credit schemes to essentially drive more favorable

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Speaker 1: economics for perennial crops and for them to you know,

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Speaker 1: serve I think everyone's familiar with this idea of tree planting,

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Speaker 1: but how about crop planting as a form of carbon credits.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there certainly is the opportunity with perennial crops.

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Speaker 3: We can actually see it happening at the moment with

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Speaker 3: annuals and have this addition of sequestering a lot more

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Speaker 3: carbon and requiring a lot fewer inputs. So one thing

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Speaker 3: that has developed over the past six months, six twelve

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Speaker 3: months is the Land Institute have been in contact with

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Speaker 3: the USDA and they are actually putting KERNSA into the

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Speaker 3: Comet Farm System, which is the life cycle assessment tool

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Speaker 3: for agriculture in the US so that will enable carbon

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Speaker 3: assessments of KERNSA and going forward, this could mean that

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Speaker 3: it is included in voluntary carbon markets potentially moving forward,

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Speaker 3: and it could mean that growers can receive a monetary

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Speaker 3: payment for growing their perennial crops.

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Speaker 1: Just driving back to the economics, we've referenced the potential

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Speaker 1: for carbon credits. We've referenced some of the companies that

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Speaker 1: are actually looking at this as well as nonprofits. But

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Speaker 1: in the government space, there is government approval, But are

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Speaker 1: there governments that are actively trying to promote this sort

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Speaker 1: of development because they also see the scale of the problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great question.

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Speaker 3: And in the States they are looking at bringing perennial

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Speaker 3: crops into some of their conservation schemes. This is the

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Speaker 3: only example I've seen in the UK. Here we do

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Speaker 3: have schemes where perennial crops would fit in, but they're

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Speaker 3: not explicitly listed. And I also think it's something that

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Speaker 3: growers need to recognize that these could actually have a

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Speaker 3: benefit to their farming systems, you know, build the resilience

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Speaker 3: in their soils and also sequesta carbon. So I think

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Speaker 3: that's the direction I see it moving in in terms

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Speaker 3: of who has some responsibility there. But also interestingly, there

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Speaker 3: are quite a few barriers in the States with growing

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Speaker 3: these crops, and that's around the insurance of crops there.

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Speaker 3: So essentially, if you grow an annual crop, you can

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Speaker 3: get insurance for that crop, but if it fails or

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Speaker 3: if the yield is lower significantly lower than other areas. However,

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Speaker 3: perennial crops are not listed for insurance, so that obviously

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Speaker 3: creates a big barrier.

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Speaker 1: So farming is a highly fragmented space from the grower's perspective,

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Speaker 1: and what are some of the barriers that would actually

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Speaker 1: or are actually stopping these methods from getting traction at

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Speaker 1: that level.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think one of the barriers is definitely investment.

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Speaker 3: There is a lack of investment and interest in these crops.

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Speaker 1: So investment in the technology or investment in education and awareness, I.

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Speaker 2: Think a mixture.

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Speaker 3: I think investment in the technology to make these crops

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Speaker 3: higher yielding is probably the first key action that needs

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Speaker 3: to be taken. But then following that actually getting growers

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Speaker 3: to understand that the tradition of crops being annual isn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily the only way of growing cereals.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because ultimately this needs to be good for

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Speaker 1: the planet and good for farmers. And I guess then

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Speaker 1: my question is you seem fairly optimistic about this technology.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that it will be able to, with

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Speaker 1: enough develop and over time, strike that balance where it's

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Speaker 1: the best of all things or will there always be

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Speaker 1: some sort of trade off.

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Speaker 3: I think in the future there will be a balance

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Speaker 3: between both annual and perennial crops.

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Speaker 2: The key thing with the lights of.

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Speaker 3: Wheat and maize is that they do need to have

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Speaker 3: their yields improved before we can see wide adoption. However,

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Speaker 3: I do think even today, in many areas where there's

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Speaker 3: degraded soils, we could have cans are growing because they

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Speaker 3: are more robust and they can be grazed. So actually,

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Speaker 3: in those sort of more marginal areas where soils are

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Speaker 3: less healthy, I think we could have those crops growing

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Speaker 3: and them returning some sort of gross margin back to

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Speaker 3: the farmer.

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Speaker 1: It's kindsa the only currently patented one of these at

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Speaker 1: this time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so Kansa is the only patented wheat. However,

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Speaker 3: they are also developing another type of perennial wheat, so

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Speaker 3: I'll briefly explain there's two different ways of breeding canza

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Speaker 3: and perennial wheat. So Kanza has been bred by taking

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Speaker 3: the wild wheat grass and breeding that to give us

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Speaker 3: a higher yield over time, whereas perennial wheat is being

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Speaker 3: developed by crossing the annual counterpart and the wild relative.

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Speaker 3: So that's actually breeding two species together and creating a hybrid.

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Speaker 3: And I think the hope in the future is that

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Speaker 3: Kansa will remain more of a wheat grass variety, and

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Speaker 3: it may never achieve the full yield potential that annual

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Speaker 3: crops do. However, I think they are hoping that the

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Speaker 3: hybridization will achieve that high yield.

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Speaker 1: Well, we've certainly taken a step today in terms of

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Speaker 1: trying to spread the word regarding the potential for perennial crops.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we'll get a farmer too listening to the podcast today.

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Speaker 1: But certainly for those who are listening and for me,

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Speaker 1: hopefully they have learned something that we didn't know when

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Speaker 1: we started the show. Thank you very much for joining

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Speaker 1: today and explaining what perennial crops are and the potential

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Speaker 1: that they hold.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Dana.

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