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Speaker 1: So Dan, before we get started today, we just wanted

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Speaker 1: to take a moment to let everyone know about something

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Speaker 1: new from Bloomberg. Do you want to hear what it is?

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Speaker 1: to the companies and the people you're reading about. So really,

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Speaker 1: no matter where you're reading the news, you can bring

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Speaker 1: the power of Bloomberg's news and data with you. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty amazing. Download our Io s app or search for

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg extension on the Chrome Store to try it out.

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Speaker 1: Learn more at Bloomberg dot com. Backslash lends. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll get back to you after I play around with

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Speaker 1: it for a few minutes. Globalization under threat peak free trade.

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Speaker 1: Today's headlines seem full of declarations that the once seemingly

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Speaker 1: unstoppable march toward the free flow of goods, services, labor,

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Speaker 1: and capital has stopped or has it? Never mind? And

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Speaker 1: after the end of TPP and bregsit and forget the

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Speaker 1: idea that globalization is a post n or post Cold

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Speaker 1: War phenomenon. For a real barometer of globalization, it's past

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Speaker 1: and critically it's present. Look no further than a small

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Speaker 1: island sandwich between Malaysia and Indonesia. Singapore both a country

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Speaker 1: and a city, and there's way more going on here

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Speaker 1: than just a ban on chewing gum. I'm Daniel Moss.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Benchmark, a podcast about the global economy.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by my colleague Scott Landman in Washington. Good

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Speaker 1: to be with you, Dan. So smaller than Rhode Island,

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Speaker 1: Singapore is nothing less than a trading superpower, and it's thriving,

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Speaker 1: according to a new book by John Curtis Perry, Professor

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Speaker 1: Perry from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at

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Speaker 1: Tufts University in Massachusetts. Welcome to our program. Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much, gentlemen. It's a great pleasure to be with you,

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Speaker 1: and congratulations on the book. First, let's get something out

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Speaker 1: of the way. It continues to amaze me as a

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Speaker 1: former resident of Southeast Asia. Why the only thing many

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Speaker 1: Americans know about Singapore is that you're not supposed to

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Speaker 1: chew gum? How did this get to obscure the incredible rise,

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Speaker 1: fall and rise again of this trading superpower. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: chewing gum business. Of course, that's the one thing that

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Speaker 1: people seem to know about Singapore. It's animals towards the

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Speaker 1: chewing gum. Actually it's available, but you're not supposed to

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Speaker 1: to it and discarded on sidewalks, which I think is

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Speaker 1: quite an admirable thing. Singapore is remarkable because it's so

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Speaker 1: small and so vital, although it has problems which we'll

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Speaker 1: get to. I think their reasons for optimism and reasons

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Speaker 1: for why Americans should be especially interested in Singapore, particularly

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Speaker 1: business community. I think uh Singapore has uh such vitality

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Speaker 1: and such attractiveness is a place to do business that

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Speaker 1: it's drawn an amazing amount of interest from American American

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Speaker 1: business community. We have more money invested in Singapore than

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Speaker 1: we have in Australia. We have more money invested in

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Speaker 1: Singapore than we have in Japan. We have more money

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Speaker 1: twice as much money invested in Singapore than in all

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Speaker 1: of China, which I think is a remark corble statistic.

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Speaker 1: I would add, on top of what Dan said about

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Speaker 1: chewing gum being the only fact that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people know is that I remember quite clearly when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, They're the big story was about the kid

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Speaker 1: in Singapore who was sentenced to keening, which you duly

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Speaker 1: recount in your book. But you know, let's go back

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Speaker 1: even further. You know, we have these remarkable facts about

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Speaker 1: Singapore today, but tell us a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: early origins of Singapore and the forces which led to

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Speaker 1: its rise were really present long before the founder Stamford

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Speaker 1: Raffles appeared on the scene. Was was Singapore the way

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Speaker 1: to trade with China? Before you know there was the

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Speaker 1: kind of China trade that we think about today. Well,

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Speaker 1: you have to go back before the Europeans arrived UM

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Speaker 1: and to the earlier um Malay presence in Singapore. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Singapore was one of a number of maritime city states

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Speaker 1: about seven hundred years ago. UM and Thomasik or singaporea

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Speaker 1: uh two names for one place. UH. Tomasik, by the way,

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Speaker 1: is a name that's been resurrected for a large investment fund.

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Speaker 1: But the history of this Malay passage very shadowy because

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Speaker 1: all we have to work with is legend, a few documents,

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Speaker 1: early travelers accounts and so forth, and pieces of pottery

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Speaker 1: and bits of jewelry and so forth that have been

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Speaker 1: dug up almost inadvertently. But now in the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: marine archaeology has entered the picture and we've learned quite

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Speaker 1: a bit more. So we can establish the fact that

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Speaker 1: Singapore is about seven hundred years old, and it was

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Speaker 1: a prosperous trading state of malaise, drawing people from all

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Speaker 1: over the archipelago and can ducting a lively trade with China,

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Speaker 1: and the Chinese begin to recognize the value of Southeast Asia. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They're drawn by the lure of tropical products, things like

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Speaker 1: rare woods, towrtoise shell, this sort of thing. China is huge,

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Speaker 1: but it's not self sufficient. It doesn't have a tropical area.

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Speaker 1: So the Chinese were drawn to Southeast Asia for what

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Speaker 1: was available there, these exotic products, and they dealt with

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Speaker 1: the malaise, and some of their traders stayed. And that's

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Speaker 1: really the beginning of the great Chinese diaspora. It's also

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Speaker 1: the beginning of great food and Malacca. Is it not

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Speaker 1: exactly food? Uh. Food represents a wonderful cultural fusion, and

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Speaker 1: the Singapore is particularly rich and diverse in its its

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Speaker 1: culinary world. Growing up in Australia. We're very familiar with

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Speaker 1: the traumatic tale of the fall of Singapore, the sinking

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Speaker 1: of the Prince of Wales, the seating of the repulse,

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Speaker 1: and the geostrategic shift within my native land. But let's

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Speaker 1: just rush through that for a second to get to

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Speaker 1: the post n era, the British return. Briefly, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: go so well. Independent sweeps through the region. But unlike

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Speaker 1: Indonesia and Malaysia, Singapore embraces its colonial heritage. Tell us

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Speaker 1: why that's right, Well, the Singaporean government and people have

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Speaker 1: been so pragmatic, recognizing the need for jobs to seed

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Speaker 1: their people and the recognition that Singapore has no natural

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Speaker 1: resources except it's splendid harbor, the harbor which developed as

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Speaker 1: a major world port even in the nineteenth century colonial era,

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Speaker 1: and as Li Kwan Yu, the Prime Minister founding Prime Minister,

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Speaker 1: would say, ultimately, well without the harbor, we are not

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Speaker 1: half ourselves. So the maritime maritime role of Singapore was

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Speaker 1: served as a catapult which kept it open to the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world. Even though it was a colony,

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Speaker 1: it was part of the British Empire, which gave it

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Speaker 1: a global embrace, and that was very important. So where

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Speaker 1: are we now, Let's turn to the go back to

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about our intro about globalization. How you know,

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Speaker 1: Singapore is a very it seems like a barometer of

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Speaker 1: globalization or natural example of that. When I think about Singapore,

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Speaker 1: having lived in China for a few years and worked

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Speaker 1: with a number of people, become somewhat familiar with Singapore. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think about how English is the standard

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Speaker 1: language there. Uh, it's very pro business. Government service is

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Speaker 1: highly valued, and its public servants are probably the highest

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Speaker 1: paid in the world. You also have compulsory military service there.

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Speaker 1: How which of these things would you say is most

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Speaker 1: key to Singapore's place in the world as a major

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Speaker 1: center of trade and business? Right now? Did you need

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Speaker 1: all these things together or is one of them more

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Speaker 1: important than the others? Well, it's it's it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a tapestry. But I think the maritime is prime. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think that Singapore's role as a port generated uh

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Speaker 1: it's initially importance. It went on from from there. I

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Speaker 1: think that Singapore benefited, of course from its strategic location

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Speaker 1: and as an independent state after nineteen sixty. Uh, it

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Speaker 1: was fortunate in the timing it took of that of

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Speaker 1: the last years since since independence. UM, so it's it's

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Speaker 1: a matter of luck. Luck in history is always a factor.

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Speaker 1: After there was a huge leap in world wealth and

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Speaker 1: increasing global economic integration and the breakdown of old oceanic empires,

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Speaker 1: releasing new energies and technical technological advantages to the particularly

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Speaker 1: in the maritime sphere. The bulk carrier, the super ship,

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Speaker 1: the standard sized container offering a seam, the flow of goods,

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Speaker 1: all integrated by the Internet. All of these factors contributed

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Speaker 1: to UH Singapore's success and overall it was this attitude

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Speaker 1: of pragmatism. UM. Instead of blaming the British for the

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Speaker 1: harshness of colonial rule, it was not particularly onerous, but

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Speaker 1: nonetheless colonial rules never pleasant. UH. The Singaporeans did not

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Speaker 1: blame the British, but instead embraced the British tradition as

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Speaker 1: a way of creating the image that they wanted. Similarly,

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Speaker 1: their pragmatism could be exhibited in the attitudes towards the

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Speaker 1: Japanese after the war. As you know that Japanese came

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Speaker 1: in and occupied Singapore, and the occupation was cruel and demeaning,

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Speaker 1: and there was nothing good about it, But instead of

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Speaker 1: nurturing a sense of grievance, the Singaporeans embraced the Japanese

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Speaker 1: for what they could offer in the way of technology

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Speaker 1: and capital. So while Malaysia and Indonesia zigged, Singapore zagged.

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Speaker 1: That's basically what you're saying. They the Singaporeans did not

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Speaker 1: chase that rhetorical we are leaders of the third World.

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Speaker 1: They did not. No, highly pragmatic, always concerned about the

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Speaker 1: livelihood of the citizenry and the vulnerability of this small

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Speaker 1: island with a relatively large population to support, and recognizing

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Speaker 1: that the maritime important though it was was not significant,

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Speaker 1: was not adequate to provide for was needed. So they

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Speaker 1: had to move into manufacturing, and they had no capital.

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Speaker 1: They had to get capital from abroad. They had to

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Speaker 1: persuade foreigners that Singapore was a good investment, and this

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Speaker 1: meant creating a attractive environment. I think this was very important.

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Speaker 1: The greening of Singapore, the planting of trees and flowers,

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Speaker 1: and the cleanliness of the streets and so forth, conveying

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Speaker 1: an atmosphere of stability and control, the sort of thing

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Speaker 1: that businessmen look for when they're investing their money. So

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Speaker 1: all this I think was very important. And if you

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Speaker 1: add to that this combination of the Chinese entrepreneurial urge

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Speaker 1: and skill where the tradition of British law order, stability,

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Speaker 1: openness to the outside world and free trade to free

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Speaker 1: trade was established when when the British first arrived in

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Speaker 1: Singapore and was a big reason why it became an

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Speaker 1: instant success because other ports did not practice free trade

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Speaker 1: in a world that's becoming increasingly inward looking. Now. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, with populism rising in much of the developed world. Uh,

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Speaker 1: what what happens to Singapore now? You know, do they

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Speaker 1: have to maintain their globalization to survive and maintain the

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Speaker 1: friendly relations and trade with countries across the world and

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Speaker 1: ensure that free trade continues and that they benefit from

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Speaker 1: both the best of the United States and China and

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Speaker 1: other major economy. Sure, but globalization is not going to disappear.

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Speaker 1: Maybe under fire right now, but but there's every reason

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Speaker 1: for globalism too continue in the world, I think, and

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Speaker 1: Singapore is placed in an ideal position culturally I think too,

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Speaker 1: and economically to take advantage of whatever opportunities there are.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have a corruption free business environment, you

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Speaker 1: have this constant attention to logistics. They're doing things better.

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Speaker 1: Singapore is constantly rebuilding itself with a world class infrastructure

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Speaker 1: and uh connectivity with the rest of the world by

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Speaker 1: air and by sea. Um. They have a skilled and

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Speaker 1: hard working labor force, industrial peace, and most important I

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Speaker 1: think is that they have a strong interest in I T.

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Speaker 1: Literacy and they're aiming to become a smart nation. Other words,

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Speaker 1: they have a culture of accepting change and embracing the

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Speaker 1: new and adaptability, looking outside, questioning the established wisdom. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is going to enable Singapore to ride

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Speaker 1: any adverse currents um successfully. Now, the Singaporeans would be

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Speaker 1: the first to tell you the situation is not perfect.

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Speaker 1: That's one recipe of their success. This constant striving John,

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Speaker 1: I feel we do need to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about politics. The place sometimes gets a bad rap in

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Speaker 1: terms of political freedom, but the picture appears much more nuanced.

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Speaker 1: For example, biotech research is a big thing in Singapore,

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Speaker 1: and no one's looking over the shoulder of scientists saying

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Speaker 1: you can't do this with stem cells or you can't

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Speaker 1: do that, unlike political constraints on research in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about how politics has evolved as

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Speaker 1: Singapore recognizes it has to keep it well. Singapore is

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Speaker 1: a republic. It's not a democracy, I guess you'd say,

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Speaker 1: because it's a one party state. One party has dominated

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Speaker 1: the politics since since politics began there, even before independence.

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Speaker 1: The government, however, has elections at regular intervals and they

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Speaker 1: subject themselves to the will of the people, and the

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Speaker 1: people have supported the government consistently because they're satisfied with

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Speaker 1: their living standards. But of course some chase under the

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Speaker 1: restrictive atmosphere of government, and the phrase nanny state, for example,

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Speaker 1: has been applied to UM the government which is overly

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Speaker 1: solicitous of its people. And so there is a question

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Speaker 1: of this, particularly when it affects the arts. And I

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Speaker 1: talk about that a bit in my book. To what

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Speaker 1: extent does control uh stifle freedom of expression? What would

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Speaker 1: happen to Singapore if the ruling party were to lose power? Well, um,

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Speaker 1: there are very capable people who could take office, and

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Speaker 1: this is a possibility. The Internet has brought big changes

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Speaker 1: to political expression because people can use that in a

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Speaker 1: way that they could not use the older media to

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Speaker 1: express their opinions. And there are many people who sound

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Speaker 1: off against the government and UM as the opposition perhaps

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Speaker 1: begins to coalesce a bit more, there's a possibility that

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Speaker 1: the ruling party will be voted out of office. But

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Speaker 1: thus far it's very strong, and the opposition has not

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Speaker 1: coalesced and presented an alternative that most people think is viable.

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Speaker 1: Let's close with a cosmic question, John, what does Singapore's

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Speaker 1: history and Singapore now say about the expansion of Chinese

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Speaker 1: economic and financial power? The question, you know, what would

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Speaker 1: the world be alike if there were ten Singaporees along

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Speaker 1: the coast of China, if each of the old Treaty

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Speaker 1: ports scattered along that China coast, they so called s

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Speaker 1: e z s especial economic zones which dun Suping established,

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Speaker 1: if each of them had sufficient independence to become a

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Speaker 1: Singapore type state, UH, this would mean a major shift

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Speaker 1: to Asia, which is of course already occurring as Asia

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Speaker 1: revives renews after UH some four or five centuries of

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Speaker 1: of lesser power. UM. So, the prospect of a numbers

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Speaker 1: of Singapoes is interesting. UM And the fact that Singapore

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Speaker 1: is essentially a Chinese state, the largest Chinese city outside

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Speaker 1: China outside China is um an indication of the power

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Speaker 1: of that culture. The commercial genius of the Chinese people.

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Speaker 1: So John inclose, what does Singapore tell us now, not

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Speaker 1: about Singapore itself, but about world trade and the rising

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Speaker 1: power of China. Well, I would say Singapore is not

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Speaker 1: a model, which that is used quite often. You appear,

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Speaker 1: appears in the press and the President of Rwanda says

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Speaker 1: he wants Ruanda to be the Singapore of of Central Africa. Um,

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Speaker 1: Singapore is not a model for anybody, but it does

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Speaker 1: offer lessons uh and I think the first lesson is

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Speaker 1: adaptability and pragmatism. The fact that Singapore has always climbed

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Speaker 1: the economic ladder, beginning with shipping and now in brain services.

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Speaker 1: And Singapore is achieved remarkable success in health care and education.

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Speaker 1: Um and I t um. I think Singapore offers a

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Speaker 1: lesson in UH forgiving the sins of the past. As

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Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, UM and Singapore also illustrates the value

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Speaker 1: of using history to advantage and Uh I mentioned greening

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Speaker 1: to the lesson in creating an attractive environment that will

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Speaker 1: draw businessmen and others. And you mentioned government pay to

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Speaker 1: Singapore's remarkably corruption free and one reason is that, as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, cabinet ministers get very high salaries, million dollar salaries.

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Speaker 1: They're competitive with the private sector, and government service offers

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Speaker 1: a prestigious as well as lucrative career, and that's very much,

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Speaker 1: of course, part of the Chinese imperial tradition. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine anyone in Singapore making a speech saying government is

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Speaker 1: the problem, not the solution. Yes, Sehn, this has been

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Speaker 1: a real treat to have you with us, and again,

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Speaker 1: congratulations on the book. It's an incredible historical and economic

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Speaker 1: narrative that really sort of takes us right the way

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Speaker 1: back to, you know, the China trade before there was

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Speaker 1: a China trade. Well, thank you. I really enjoyed talking

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Speaker 1: and I do hope people will read the book and

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Speaker 1: I love talking about it. So thanks. Well, I'll let

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Speaker 1: you know what they say next week when I'm there. Okay, great.

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Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week and until then. You

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Speaker 1: can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com,

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Speaker 1: and our Bloomberg app, as well as on Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: pocket casts, and Stitcher. While you're there, please take a

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Speaker 1: minute to rate and review the show so more listeners

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Speaker 1: can find us and let us know what you thought

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Speaker 1: of the show. You can follow me on Twitter, at

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Speaker 1: at scott Landman Dan, You're at Moss Underscore. Echo Benchmark

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Speaker 1: is produced by Sarah Pattison. Our head of podcasts is

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Speaker 1: Alec McCay. Full disclosure. Alec claims to have brought chewing

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Speaker 1: gum into Singapore, chewed it and nobody cared. See you

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Speaker 1: next week.