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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater podcast. We're recording in in

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Speaker 1: uh Seattle, Washington, not far from my house, in a

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Speaker 1: in a in a rental house that the T shirt magnate, uh,

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Speaker 1: Janice Telis rented for a shoot. Um you got do

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Speaker 1: you guys? Have? Have you ever bought one of the

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Speaker 1: Honest's T shirts? I have not. That's Randall our guests,

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Speaker 1: Randall Williams Williams Williams admitting to having not bought one

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Speaker 1: of Janice's Hunt Eat shirts. Andy, I'm interested in the

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Speaker 1: T shirts for sale. I just made a sale for you, honest.

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Speaker 1: That's that's my very old Andy. How long we've been friends? Uh,

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Speaker 1: probably goes back to mid nineties. Maybe we've been friends

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Speaker 1: almost half the time that I've been alive. Just about

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Speaker 1: dead nuts half the time I've been alive. Um, Andy,

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Speaker 1: was like you were because you were still becoming one,

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Speaker 1: but you were the first chef I ever actually met

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Speaker 1: besides like a dude who cooks fried food in the bar. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Actually when we when training to be a chef. When

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Speaker 1: our path across, Yeah, I was just starting culinary school. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's probably nineties six right there? Where was that faris

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Speaker 1: day in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So just down the road

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Speaker 1: from Ferres. Yeah, I was at g V. I moved,

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Speaker 1: I went to like I graduated from the third college

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Speaker 1: that I enrolled in. But you were at the culinary

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Speaker 1: arts program. Yeah. I was at Grand Valley for a

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Speaker 1: little bit and then switched gears and ended up at

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Speaker 1: the culinary program right there in downtown Grand Rapids. And

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Speaker 1: that was a fun time. We did the first meal

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Speaker 1: thing we ever did, besides cooking steel head or something,

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Speaker 1: was when we cooked we had a pig with a

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Speaker 1: road killed deer. We did, and we sold the I

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Speaker 1: believe we sold the road killed deer inside of a

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Speaker 1: pig and had a party, big old party, wild, big pig,

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Speaker 1: small deer. What. No. We were coming back Me and

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Speaker 1: my brother Matt were coming back from fishing into PM,

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Speaker 1: remember the PM from Michigan. We're coming back from fishing salmon.

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Speaker 1: Must have been late summer, coming back from fishing salm

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Speaker 1: On the PM. Guy in front of us hit a

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Speaker 1: deer with his car. He didn't want it. We called

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Speaker 1: the cops. Cops gave us no. We never even got

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Speaker 1: I could. I'm sure the statute limitations is worn out

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Speaker 1: by now. Did not get a permit for the deer,

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Speaker 1: drove the deer from Baldwin down to your Grand Rapids

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Speaker 1: and hung it in a garage at a house we

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Speaker 1: were renting. And this was a full on flophouse. I mean,

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Speaker 1: none of the dudes that lived in that house were

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Speaker 1: on that lease. Probably. Well. A funny side note about

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Speaker 1: that is being Mark Schmidt. We're up in that same

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Speaker 1: neck of the woods the same time you guys were,

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Speaker 1: and we were coming home the day the morning after

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Speaker 1: that and saw that gut pile on the side of

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Speaker 1: the road and made mention of it, and then got

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Speaker 1: all the way back to our house, opened the garage

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Speaker 1: door and there was that darranging. We pieced it together. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's a great recipe to put a deer cut up

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Speaker 1: in a pig. And I think we sold it with

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Speaker 1: bangling wire. It was twenty years ago though. Anyhow, that's

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Speaker 1: not where you're top about. So Joannice, who tells uh

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Speaker 1: of of of plug your T shirts? Yanny Janna is

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Speaker 1: on the conversation, Yanayana, get so little, so little out

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Speaker 1: of this. Let it let's talk. He's dumb bunch t shirts. No,

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Speaker 1: this has really helped our T shirt business. And by

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Speaker 1: the time you guys listen to this, we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: of Texas T shirts and Montana T shirts. So Yanni

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Speaker 1: makes the shirts hunt to Eat and um, he had

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Speaker 1: an original one that wasn't state specific, then in Colorado

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Speaker 1: because that's his roots are in Colorado. Then now you're

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Speaker 1: doing Texas. It's got a big fence on it. It's

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Speaker 1: got an a fence in a corn feeder. No, I'm joking,

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Speaker 1: it's made to look like the Texas flag, Texas license plate.

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Speaker 1: He's coming out with Montana doing Alaska. We've been trying

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Speaker 1: talking into do in Jersey. She hasn't gotten around to yet.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Hunty dot com go by one of Yanni's teachers.

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Speaker 1: The reason we're here to talk though, Randall Williams. Now,

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Speaker 1: when I was in I went after regular college, I

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Speaker 1: went to graduate school. When I was in graduate school,

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Speaker 1: I took a class with a with an environmental historian

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Speaker 1: by the name of Dan Flores. And um, if everyone

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Speaker 1: read great history stuff, go check out Dan's books. But

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Speaker 1: Dan writes a lot of I mean some of his

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Speaker 1: most influence correct me if I'm wrong, but thinks one

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Speaker 1: of the most cited, like when an academic does a paper.

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Speaker 1: One way to gauge like writes an article, they'll call

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Speaker 1: it the paper right now'll publish it. A way to

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Speaker 1: gauge a paper success is how many times it's cited, right, right,

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Speaker 1: And his thing Bison ecology, Bison diplomacy. Yeah, this cited

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Speaker 1: and anthologized, and it's just like that has been like

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Speaker 1: a hugely successful paper, right Yeah. Now that's from the

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Speaker 1: Journal of American History, which is a really prestigious journal,

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Speaker 1: and I think that was from maybe and it's been

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Speaker 1: reproduced in countless anthologies. Yeah, And in it, Dan Floores

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Speaker 1: argues quite beautifully that the planes Indians never had never

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Speaker 1: reached equilibrium with the bison herds, and that had correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you know it, say

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Speaker 1: better Id Randall, And and he argues, had you just

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Speaker 1: introduced the firearm and the horse, you'd have had eventually

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Speaker 1: had the same outcome. Yeah. I mean, the larger argument

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Speaker 1: is um essentially that there are so many variables that

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Speaker 1: go into determining what the what the bison population of

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Speaker 1: the planes would be that you can't simply blame this

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Speaker 1: mass extinction on market hunters. At the end of the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century, because that's always been what most historians have

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Speaker 1: have done, is to blame white market hunters, the industrial

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Speaker 1: hide hunt for the extinction of or the near extinction

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Speaker 1: of the bison. And so Dan is arguing that they're

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Speaker 1: larger um climactic patterns, periods of drought on the planes

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Speaker 1: that uh, you know affect with bison populations. Native hunters

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Speaker 1: they had, you know, they're their long standing traditions and

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Speaker 1: practices changed wholesale with the introduction of the horse and

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Speaker 1: the firearm and so probably yeah, the opening of markets, um.

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Speaker 1: And Indians participated in in the market hunting as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: And So essentially what his article does is it takes

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Speaker 1: this story that had really been rendered into something of

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Speaker 1: morality play, um and and makes it much more complex

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Speaker 1: and I think ultimately much more interesting. UM. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's sort of the gist of the bison piece. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to dwell on that. I'm just getting

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Speaker 1: to dance. But the reason, like I wrote about that

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Speaker 1: animal from not from an academic standpoint, but more from

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Speaker 1: a popular standpoint. Um. But I became very like I

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Speaker 1: tried to become versed in these various arguments. I think

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Speaker 1: that a thing about like why the hide hunter thing

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Speaker 1: was so dramatic as it was so complete and final

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Speaker 1: that even though those guys were coming in and whittling

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Speaker 1: away at was just a fraction of the animals. The

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Speaker 1: fashionable number for for bison in the US, the fashionable

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Speaker 1: number buffalo bison. It's the same damn thing. The fashionable

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Speaker 1: number used to be like sixty million. And that came

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Speaker 1: from some really strange calculations by a guy named earned A. Seaton. Right,

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Speaker 1: he like, read about a big herd that Colonel Dodge

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Speaker 1: who's who Dodges gave the name dot to Dodge City.

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Speaker 1: Colonel Dodgers, like, I saw a big gass, heard of buffalo.

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Speaker 1: It took this may day in the past. It was

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Speaker 1: this many miles wide. So Seaton went and said, Wow,

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Speaker 1: there must have been x number and that herd. He's like,

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Speaker 1: there must have been I don't know what whatever million

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Speaker 1: animals and that heard and they lived here, and so

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Speaker 1: there's probably like six or seven or eight other areas

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Speaker 1: that are that big, and so each of those areas

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Speaker 1: has that many, and that became how you always heard

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Speaker 1: that there was sixty million these animals at the time

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Speaker 1: of European colonization. Now the fashionable figure is you see

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Speaker 1: often maybe it's changed because it's been a few years

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Speaker 1: since I've been in the game, the fashionable figure million,

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Speaker 1: you know. But the thing that's weird about it as

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Speaker 1: you get where by the time the hide hunters, like

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Speaker 1: by the time euro American hide hunters came on the

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Speaker 1: scene and we're shooting them to put on rail cars,

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Speaker 1: to send the hides on rail cars to the East

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Speaker 1: to have them tanned, there were way fewer. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was already a vulnerable population because by the end

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Speaker 1: of the Civil War that number again this is debatable,

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Speaker 1: but but a reasonable gas or a reasonable theory would

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Speaker 1: be by the end of the Civil War you had

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Speaker 1: maybe fifteen million, maybe ten millions. So they've already been

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Speaker 1: whacked down by a half two thirds, and you wind

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Speaker 1: up having these pretty big, substantial herds left a couple

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Speaker 1: you know, you have these eight herds of like a

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Speaker 1: couple million, a million, and so to our eyes today,

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Speaker 1: it would seem like unfathomable amounts of animals in the

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Speaker 1: herd and the high owners of rolling and they would

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Speaker 1: kill thousands, you know. So it would be like right now,

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Speaker 1: we don't have nearly as many. Uh, take your pick,

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Speaker 1: I don't name something naming equivalent. We don't have nearly

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Speaker 1: as many what as we did at the time of

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Speaker 1: European contact. Big horn sheet? Okay, you so if a

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Speaker 1: bunch of guys went out right now and made did

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Speaker 1: their best to shoot every big horn sheet and they

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Speaker 1: shot them pretty much all, would you later say, you

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Speaker 1: know what happened to the big horn sheep? These one

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Speaker 1: assholes in two thousand fifteen shot them all, and then

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Speaker 1: someone else would be like, oh no, because they were

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Speaker 1: way down from all these other factors have been planning

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Speaker 1: out for the last two hundred years, So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: really that much of a sin because there they were

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Speaker 1: already missing from nine of their range from the from

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Speaker 1: nd when these dudes in two thousand fifteen went and

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Speaker 1: shot the rest, does that make sin less or more so?

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Speaker 1: The Highlanders shot a lot of ship. Maybe they didn't

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Speaker 1: shoot thirty two million, but they mopped up what was

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Speaker 1: left of like some big herds at shirt were a

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Speaker 1: fraction of the original, but it's still kind of like catastrophic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and Dan's article basically um highlights a whole host

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Speaker 1: of factors that sort of set the stage for hide

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Speaker 1: hunters to come in and just deliver the death blow. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so that's I think it was a pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: significant intervention, and um sort of a controversial one too,

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Speaker 1: because it it disrupts um. You know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people like to make the past into simple morality place.

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Speaker 1: And the bison was always this example of uh, just

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Speaker 1: expl naked exploitation, breed Native Americans used every part of

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Speaker 1: the animal right, never wasted anything, right, complete sanctimonious, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then evil guys came into Star of the Indians. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and to and ands just it's just I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: it's just not true, right, And but and to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: all these other factors that led to this catastrophe isn't

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Speaker 1: to absolve hide hunters of any blame, right, it's not

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Speaker 1: uneducated guys were uneducated, guys were years old. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: even though I would have been a hide hunter, like,

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Speaker 1: there's no way the same way Like when I was

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Speaker 1: in my early twenties, I moved out to Mountainics, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to hunting fish, remove any aspect of of any

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Speaker 1: any idea about history and the idea about education, and

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Speaker 1: always grew up on a farm in Michigan with no phone,

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Speaker 1: no internet, no nothing. Turned twenty years old. You can

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Speaker 1: make money hunting buffalo. You go out on buffalo. You

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Speaker 1: have no idea what you're engaged in, right, you might

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Speaker 1: get it on some like. It wasn't like an evil thing.

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Speaker 1: This is the last thing I say about it. But

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Speaker 1: later Horn today, who collected specimens for the Smithsonian. Later

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Speaker 1: he went to Miles City trying to find he wanted

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Speaker 1: to shoot a cup buffalo for the Smiths, and they

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Speaker 1: knew they were going to be gone the Museum Natural History,

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Speaker 1: Sorry was I can remember which one was? Anyways, someone

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Speaker 1: they wanted some collections, They wanted some pristine mounts before

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Speaker 1: the animals were completely gone. He went out to Miles City.

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Speaker 1: It was in the e in late eight eighties, I think,

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Speaker 1: And he commented that in Miles City, the ranchers around

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Speaker 1: there mostly came to that area because they were high

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Speaker 1: and hunters, and they stuck around because they were convinced,

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Speaker 1: after they had shot them all that there must be

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Speaker 1: more somewhere, and they're just gonna hang tight until they

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Speaker 1: show up. And then a few years went by and

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Speaker 1: they all got into cattle ranching. They didn't even know

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Speaker 1: what they had done. There was rumors about a bunch

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Speaker 1: of Canada millions would come from Canada. They weren't like,

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Speaker 1: we got them all, good job boys. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just the scale of that, that destruction is sort of

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Speaker 1: unimaginable to us today. But and so how could we

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Speaker 1: even expect any of these guys running around UH to

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Speaker 1: have any idea what they're going? I bet you. Illiteracy?

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Speaker 1: Ill literacy and then another thing like it's a slam.

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Speaker 1: Illiteracy was probably rampant among the high honors, and there

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Speaker 1: was probably very little education among the high honors. Oh

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Speaker 1: I'm sure yeah they were. If you factory and where

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Speaker 1: those guys are mostly from and where they wound up,

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Speaker 1: and you do some kind of calculation you had about

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Speaker 1: communication and stuff, it would be like if you sent

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Speaker 1: kids from here from current day rural America to Kazakhstan

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Speaker 1: and told him that shoot that thing and we will

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Speaker 1: pay you to shoot it, yeah, I mean, and then

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Speaker 1: to them be like, dude, you didn't realize that the

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Speaker 1: populations in Kazakhstan. It's like it would mean nothing to him. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean the h and so it was a lucrative business.

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Speaker 1: You know, you could make a lot of money just

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Speaker 1: running around rolling over bison, skinning them out higher skinners

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Speaker 1: three or four five bucks apiece, throw them, throw them

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Speaker 1: on a train. And that's and then and then even still,

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Speaker 1: it's not as if they're just doing this um in

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Speaker 1: a vacuum. Right. The leather from these hides are going

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Speaker 1: onto factory belts in Chicago and New York. It's fueling

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Speaker 1: the industrial revolution um to some degree. So uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's they're they're part of their their cogs

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Speaker 1: in a much larger process. And and to place you know,

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Speaker 1: some sort of burden of guilt on them is uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's not a very intellectually serious exercise.

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Speaker 1: So they were filthy. They were filthy. They were filthy. No,

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Speaker 1: but I only bring up Dan the historian Dan Flores,

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Speaker 1: because Dan Floors uh contacted me and said that I

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Speaker 1: should speak to you about your dissertation, which I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have you explained. But first, what is explain for the listeners?

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Speaker 1: Like what is the dissertation? Do you just finished your PhD?

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Speaker 1: I did, Yeah, it just has one of those he says.

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Speaker 1: He says he says he has two and one of

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Speaker 1: them stands for pretty huge. Uh huh um. Filling the blank,

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Speaker 1: but okay, explain what the dissertation is, like, how how

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Speaker 1: that how that whole thing plays out. Yeah, so the

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Speaker 1: dissertation is the final step on the road two a

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Speaker 1: doctoral degree. Um. And so you did your you did

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Speaker 1: your doctoral work under Dan Flores. Yeah, so Dan was

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Speaker 1: my Dan was my doctoral advisor, UM. And I studied

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Speaker 1: history at the University of Montana environmental history. Um. And

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Speaker 1: explain that real quick. Environmental history. Yeah, it's like in

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Speaker 1: a nutshell. Yeah. Environmental historians are interested in questions, uh,

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Speaker 1: pertaining to how humans in the past have interacted with

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Speaker 1: the environment and how human behavior has shaped the environment

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Speaker 1: and also in turn, how the environment has shaped human

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Speaker 1: behave of heer. Um. And so it's a pretty it's

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Speaker 1: a relatively recent, uh sub field, and it really came

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Speaker 1: about in the seventies. Dan was one of the I mean,

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Speaker 1: there have always been intellectuals concerned with these questions, but

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Speaker 1: in terms of sort of a professional sub field within history, UM,

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Speaker 1: environmental history came about, uh really in the seventies, as

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Speaker 1: environmental concern became a large part of American Life. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: Cronan is a he's got a couple of classic works. Um,

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Speaker 1: who's the guy that did the thing about the death

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Speaker 1: of the frontier? Um? Like, who wrote the thing declaring

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Speaker 1: the frontier was dead? In whatever your turn turn Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But Turner wasn't an environmental historian. No, No, Turner. Turner

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Speaker 1: is a Western historian. Frederick Jackson Turnderi Jackson Turner. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Turner had this idea that he would look at the

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Speaker 1: census data, right, right, and one day found out that

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Speaker 1: on the census report things were in the US were

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Speaker 1: so lowly or so unpopulated that they would be called

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Speaker 1: the frontier. And then one day a census came in

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Speaker 1: and they realized there is no frontier anymore, right, And

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Speaker 1: he had this and then was it Cronin that then

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Speaker 1: kind of interpreted that later? Well, yeah, I mean almost

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Speaker 1: all of Western history that said is is sort of

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Speaker 1: produced in conversation with Turner. Um. And yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: the history of the American West. And and there's this

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Speaker 1: long standing debate about whether the West is a process

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Speaker 1: or a place, um. And so Turner is really arguing

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Speaker 1: that the Western, the West is a process, right, It's

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Speaker 1: a process of frontier settlement. It's a process of sort

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Speaker 1: of rendering wilderness into civilization. And that's that's sort of

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Speaker 1: Turner's thesis. And he's he's writing at the turn of

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century, UM, and he's he's looking at this

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Speaker 1: census date and saying, well, once we as Americans run

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Speaker 1: out of uh trees to cut down or or sort

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Speaker 1: of bison to shoot, right, um, native people's to fight, Um,

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Speaker 1: what's what effect is that going to have on uh,

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Speaker 1: the American people? Because he is really attributing a lot

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Speaker 1: of the distinctive characteristics of American civilization to this process

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Speaker 1: of of western or of of sort of frontier settlement. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so he's tracing um, you know, the the democrat

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Speaker 1: the origins of America and of America's democratic political culture

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Speaker 1: to all of this availa quote unquote available land right um.

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Speaker 1: And so Western historians of the American West, or Western

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Speaker 1: historians sort of interchangeable there um throughout the twentieth century

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Speaker 1: have been trying to write because Turner was so influential, UM,

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Speaker 1: Western historians have been wrestling with this question of um,

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Speaker 1: is the West a process? Is it a place? I

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Speaker 1: think environmental historians would argue that the West is a

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Speaker 1: place and that it's defined by um aridity. Uh, there

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Speaker 1: are certain you know, certain key characteristics, environmental characteristics, and

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Speaker 1: also characteristics related to its political organization of the federal

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Speaker 1: government is really uh inescapable in the West, whereas in

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Speaker 1: the East, a lot of issues of governance are resolved

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Speaker 1: at the municipal or a state level. Whereas you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at uh landownership rates and you can live

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Speaker 1: in a federally owned land. Yeah. So so this is

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Speaker 1: you know, not to get into the the minutia of

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Speaker 1: the historiography in Western history, but basically there's this long

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Speaker 1: standing debate place process. How do we define the West?

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Speaker 1: If you say that you're interested in the American West

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Speaker 1: and that's what you study, how do you define that, um,

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Speaker 1: is Alaska part of the West? Is Hawaii part of

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Speaker 1: the West? Yes? No, m all right, Well it's it's

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Speaker 1: you know, this is this is what academics do. Is

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Speaker 1: you just come up with inventive questions to all these yes. No,

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Speaker 1: well yeah, um, I just got back from Hawaii. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get into that, but I'd love to

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Speaker 1: hear someone tell me what would tell me you like

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Speaker 1: the pros and cons of calling at the West. So

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Speaker 1: now you did your dissertation, which is like your final,

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Speaker 1: the final, Like it's it's the final I want to take.

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Speaker 1: I want to go way back for people who have

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Speaker 1: who haven't dabbled around in college that much like when

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Speaker 1: you go to college, you go to regular college four

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Speaker 1: years that you probably had some kind of graduate degree

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Speaker 1: which took you two or three years. Well, I went

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Speaker 1: straight from so I did my undergraduate degree, uh in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and then I came out to the University of Montana.

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Speaker 1: I was I was admitted directly into the doctoral program.

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Speaker 1: And now the years that take five years, And how

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Speaker 1: many years have you just been working on what would

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Speaker 1: become your dissertation the whole time, the whole time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I sort of began. I mean it's evolved over time,

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Speaker 1: but it began in that first semester of graduate school.

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Speaker 1: So like it turned into a five year project. Yeah, essentially,

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Speaker 1: So I did two years of course work, UM seminars,

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Speaker 1: this and that, and then UM the next step is

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Speaker 1: your comprehensive exam. So you come up with a list

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Speaker 1: of the essential books and in a number of fields.

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Speaker 1: So I did four fields Um, and you each of

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Speaker 1: those lists about a hundred books, so you you read,

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Speaker 1: you know, I read about four hundred books and sit

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Speaker 1: down and have a conversation with your advisors and they

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Speaker 1: you know, or you'll hear the more or less. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: skim to quite a few of them. But read strategically.

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Speaker 1: So kids, I don't, man, that ship goes down the kids, man,

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Speaker 1: but I have to read, Like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: start talking about that. I love them, I love them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the first thing that goal is the ability to

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Speaker 1: read books. Yeah, I mean, that's that's. Uh. There's not

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of glamour to graduate school or you know,

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Speaker 1: graduate studies and the humanities. But the the the undeniable

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Speaker 1: luxury of it all is that, you know, people expect

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Speaker 1: you to read a lot, and uh if that's something

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Speaker 1: that that you like doing, which is what drawing, what

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Speaker 1: drew me to it. Um, you're expected to read a

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Speaker 1: lot and you have that time available. So when I

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Speaker 1: went to grad, all we did was read many Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, the amount of work you had to do

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Speaker 1: for that, especially I was in fine arts like writing.

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Speaker 1: It's like basically basically like you could have summed up

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Speaker 1: by saying discore, read for two years and and then

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Speaker 1: if you can, if you got time, write something. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that's what yeah, I mean, we I did reading.

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Speaker 1: You know, the first two years are reading seminars and

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Speaker 1: writing seminars. So in reading seminar you might read ten

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Speaker 1: books a term, and then in writing seminar you're expected

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Speaker 1: to produce an article length paper um. And then after

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Speaker 1: two years of that you sort of sent off to

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Speaker 1: prepare for your exams and essentially master these fields um.

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Speaker 1: And then once you pass your exams, then you move

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Speaker 1: on to the dissertation phase where you're actually um right.

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Speaker 1: And what a dissertation is is it's a book length

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Speaker 1: piece of writing that is expected or or must make

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Speaker 1: an original contribution to uh, the literature. So you have

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Speaker 1: to either engage with a new body of sources, or

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Speaker 1: engage with new questions or or um applied you know,

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Speaker 1: a new line of thinking to an old question, something

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Speaker 1: along those lines. So you have to do something original, um.

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Speaker 1: And basically it's sort of can you can you do

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Speaker 1: you have the talent? Do you have the requisite knowledge

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Speaker 1: to be a practicing historian? And so it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a process of professionalization essentially, now, because there's probably some

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Speaker 1: dude sitting out there feeling like they tuned into the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing because they're trying to UNI podcast reveal for me.

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Speaker 1: What's the name of your dissertation. So the name of

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Speaker 1: my dissertation is green Voters, gun voters, Hunting in politics

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Speaker 1: in Modern America. Oh man, that's rich. Um, that's why

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about before you get into that. Uh,

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Speaker 1: give me a quick if you had to do. What's

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Speaker 1: your hunting in fishing background? My hunting and fishing background.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in outside of Cincinnati, Ohio, grew up fishing,

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Speaker 1: and group of friends and I in high school decided

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Speaker 1: we want to get into hunting. And uh, none of ours,

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Speaker 1: none of our dads hunted, well, one of one of

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Speaker 1: our friends. They just didn't grow up in a hunting family.

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Speaker 1: So we sort of were like a self talk guy essentially.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we we read a lot of magazines, we

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Speaker 1: watched a lot of shows. One of my buddies, my

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Speaker 1: best friend, his dad did hunt, but he, you know,

426
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: his dad didn't take us all out hunting, right, So

427
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: we sort of figured it out on our own. And

428
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a different ballgame in outside of

429
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: Cincinnati because you're sort of setting up a tree. We

430
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: we got into white tail hunting, so it's find a game, trail,

431
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: set up a tree. Stand sit wait, sit wait. He

432
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: hasn't throw it on a sack carrots or anything. No

433
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: we do. We couldn't in Ohio, but yeah, I know.

434
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: So so we got into it in high school and

435
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: we you know, growing up, we we lived by the

436
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: Little Miami River and would run around set and try

437
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: lines and fishing all summer and that was our I mean,

438
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: that was our big thing. And so we're thinking, yeah,

439
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: you know, we should become hunters, and so we uh

440
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: so that's I mean, that sort of led me to

441
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: the project in some respects. Is these what my source

442
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: space for this project is pretty much just field and stream,

443
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: outdoor life, local hunting, of fishing columns, um and and

444
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: so that's that's sort of how I was introduced to

445
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: the sport primarily, UM and we did a lot of

446
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: figuring out on our own, but um, these magazines have

447
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: always been sort of a source of fascination for me,

448
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: and also coming from a non hunting family. UM, you know,

449
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: in some respects, you feel like an observer, right um

450
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: And so so anyway, that's that's sort of my background.

451
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: And now I'm out in Montana and uh, i've the past.

452
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: I just finished the doctorate, but uh past six years.

453
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: You know, I was out. I was in Alaska prior

454
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: to going to Montana, and so I was split my

455
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: time between guiding fishing in Alaska in the summer and

456
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: then run back to Montana for the academic calendar. So

457
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: it's been it's been a pretty good uh, pretty good

458
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: life so far. Yeah. Uh, south central Alaska about ninety

459
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: hundred miles northwest of Anchorage, Mary called Lake Creek for

460
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: what uh salmon and trout u And it's just people

461
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: come out to fly out trips for the week or

462
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: for the out of lodge. So we're just running jet

463
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: sleds around and good times. Yeah. Alright, so break break down,

464
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: break down your research, Like how would you look at

465
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: So I look primarily at um like I said, field

466
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: and stream, outdoor life, nationally circulated hunting magazines, fishing game

467
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: I didn't do. Yeah, I know, I first be for

468
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: a fishing game. At some point you have to put

469
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: the blinders on and just say I think I've got

470
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: what I need here, and you can always bring in

471
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: the big venerables like field stream out or sports, ports

472
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: the field, the big three, and I didn't I didn't

473
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: do so much for sports the field. UM. But I

474
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: also I what I'm what I'm looking at in the

475
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 1: dissertation is huntings changing, huntings transforming or evolving or changing

476
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: public culture from the end of World War Two up

477
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: until about the nineteen nineties. And so I looked for

478
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: any place where hunters are sort of publicly celebrating or articulating, rationalizing, uh,

479
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: explaining what they do, what it means to them, how

480
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: they see themselves as hunters, how they identify and understand

481
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: themselves and what they're doing. Um. And also where they

482
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: sort of butt up against the non hunting public and

483
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: how they define themselves in relation to uh, non hunters,

484
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: anti hunters, etcetera. UM, and so so so focusing on

485
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: the friction, not internal friction, but the friction between the

486
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: friction or lubrication or whatever between people who are hunting

487
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: people who don't like the broader culture. Yeah. And I

488
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: like conflict within the hunting world about where do we

489
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: feel what how do we feel about? No? And I

490
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: do look at I do look at that as well. Um,

491
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: I look at you know how you know you see it.

492
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: You know you see it in today's you know, letters

493
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: to the editor, this and that. You know, somebody says

494
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: we as sportsmen should do this, we as sportsman should

495
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: be on this page. Um and and there is conflict

496
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 1: within these ranks. So what I'm looking at is how

497
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: hunters have um identified over the course about fifty years,

498
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: how they've identified in relation to one another and in

499
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: relation to the non hunting public um and And it's

500
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: sort of a mutually constitutive process. And that you know,

501
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: they're not they're not in a vacuum. Uh. They're they're

502
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: defining themselves in relation to a changing world around them.

503
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: Um and they're but but they're not just sort of

504
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: um blank slates either, right, if that makes sense. So

505
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: some of the some of the changing public culture comes

506
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: from within, and some of it is in um in

507
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: response to outside forces as well. So tell me, like

508
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: you guys hate generalizations and stuff like that, I know,

509
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: tell me something like tell me something that was tell

510
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: me something that would surprise me. You found out, like

511
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: what what in the end one of being like what's

512
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: the what? Right? Well, so they're there there are five

513
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: chapters to the thing. There's five chapters in an epilogue,

514
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: and they're all, um, they all sort of track a

515
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: different story throughout about a fifty year span, so it's

516
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: not written chronologically. Um. And what might interest you the

517
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: most one of the chapters is right now, will interests

518
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: me the most is one of the five chapters, So

519
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: the first one. So the first chapter looks at um

520
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: hunters and environmental politics from about nineteen to the mid

521
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. And what I do in that is there's

522
00:30:54,320 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: there's sort of this old paradigm of you know, we

523
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: have conservationists from turn of the century, and we have

524
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: and this is what a sort of an academic historian

525
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: would tell you. There are conservationists and they're properly modern environmentalists,

526
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: and there's this moment of rupture whereas you know, at

527
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: the turn of the century of guys like Difford pin Show,

528
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, um, all these, you know, just the horrid

529
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: heroes of conservation um. And and they are really dominating

530
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: environmental policy making of this period. And then in the

531
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: post war period, a new set of actors steps in

532
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: with a new set of values and they are the

533
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: driving force behind some of the landmark legislation in the

534
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies. Yeah. Yeah, And so what I try

535
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: to do in that first chapter is basically say that

536
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: there's much more continuity than that, and that it it

537
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: makes for an easy story to tell if you say,

538
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: you know, hunters did had did this at the turn

539
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: of the century, and then non hunters had their their

540
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: moment in the sixties and seventies, and I'm saying, no, Look,

541
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: if you look through the nineties, forties, fifties, sixties and

542
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: seve of these uh hunters remain a powerful, engaged, UH

543
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: political block that are really driving policy making at a

544
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: local and UH federal level throughout this period. So I'm

545
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: looking at the ways in which these magazines are So

546
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 1: it wasn't like the counterculture spawned this sudden group of environmentalists.

547
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: You went out and like rewrote the books. Yeah, And

548
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: I think I mean, if I were to sort of

549
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: oversimplify what most is no, no, but but but I

550
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: think that's a that's a good way of sort of

551
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: summing up or simplifying what a lot of historians who

552
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: haven't looked at this stuff would tell you is that

553
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: there's sort of a counterculture, a new set of values

554
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies that's really responsible for the

555
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: environmental legislation and policies that have given us the world

556
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: that we live in today, essentially UM and that their

557
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: values and their issues and UM issues of concern supplanted

558
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: these older uh issues of concern that guys like Roosevelt

559
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: are concerned that viewpoint in the among historians. Why do

560
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: people think that that happened? Well, I think that, I mean,

561
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: I think that in part it it comes from you know,

562
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: a lot of environment a lot of historians, a lot

563
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: of academics in general, UM study things that they're interested in,

564
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: concerned concerned with, are concerned about UM, and so a

565
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: lot of the initial scholarship on this subject was written

566
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: by people who came of age in the sixties and seventies. Yeah. Um, so,

567
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean that's sort of how Dan got into environmental

568
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: The criticism of that generation is how ego centric that

569
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: generation was. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's so so this

570
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: but this is how history has written, is that you know, uh,

571
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: there's there's there's sort of a thesis. One group puts

572
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: out a thesis, they put out an argument, and then

573
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: other people come revisit that and say, you know, things

574
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: might have been oversimplified here, they might have been overlooked

575
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: and sort of the initial group that makes sense of

576
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: things and periodizes things and say is this is you know,

577
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: environment modern quote unquote modern environmentalists are this their X,

578
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: Y and Z. They believe A, B and c um.

579
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: That's how they make sense of the past and of

580
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,919
Speaker 1: of a really messy reality. And and so they come

581
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: in and do that initial work. And then what I'm

582
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 1: trying to do in my project to say, you've you've

583
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: overlooked UM a much more uh, you know, complex reality.

584
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: If you've overlooked UM stories that might make it a

585
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: little more difficult to to uh makes sense of what

586
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: happened in the sixth season seven where where we get

587
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, the Clean Water Act, of Clean Air Act,

588
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: things like that, UM, the National Environmental Protection Act, Endangered

589
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: Species Act, UM. So, so that's sort of what my

590
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: projects is. So that's the that's the first chapter is

591
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: is trying to write sort of a counter narrative of

592
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: the twentieth century environmental movement through the eyes of field

593
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: and stream readers outsoor life readers UM. Was Chapter two.

594
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: Chapter two, Chapter two looks at the emergence of anti

595
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: hunting sentiment UH in the nineteen seventies and the ways

596
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: in which anti hunting advocates try to harness their own

597
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: agenda to some of these powerful new environmental laws, and

598
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: how this dynamic reshapes the way that a lot of

599
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: hunters perceived these laws. But let me let me back

600
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: up from it. What what what when did the word

601
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: well their anti owners? I mean, of course they were,

602
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: but what were they Bambi's in ninety two, right, So, um,

603
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: but Bambi isn't Yeah, I mean Bambi's nineteen forty two.

604
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: One of the things that I that I do with

605
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: this is and and opposition to hunting goes back further

606
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: than that. Um yeah, I mean you ever read the

607
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: Old Testament? Yeah? Jacobs? Right? Yeah? And and so this

608
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: is I mean there there's a huge literature out here.

609
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: But one of the there's an interesting book, I don't

610
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: know if you've read it, Daniel Justin Herman's Hunting in

611
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: the American Imagination. And one of his arguments is that, um,

612
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: sort of the early Puritans actually, if they knew that,

613
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, what would become who would become Americans were

614
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: people that prided themselves on their hunting culture. Um, the

615
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: Puritans would have been really dismayed by that, because they

616
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: hunting is something that you do when you're not working,

617
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: and you should always be working, and it's something and

618
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: so yeah, and so one of his arguments is that

619
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: sort of early that hunting occupied a different place in

620
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: the American imagination in colonial times, and what his book

621
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: does is sort of traced that through. Uh, once once

622
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: the United States is created, then you need some American

623
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: heroes and heroes that differentiate your culture from that of Europe.

624
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: And so Americans embraced sort of the Daniel Boone types, right,

625
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: And so that's a really interesting book. I'm you'd really

626
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: enjoy that one. But but anyway, Um, there's always been

627
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: sort of you know, hunting has has occupied different places

628
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: in the American imagination over time, and what my project

629
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: does sort of track that through the twentieth century. So

630
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: to get back to the question of anti hunting sentiment, Um,

631
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: there's opposition to hunting that arises in the nineteenth century. Um,

632
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: the s p c A and some of these anti

633
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: animal cruelty groups. Yeah, but and they're they're primary, their

634
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: primary consideration in the nineteenth century was really sort of

635
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 1: cruelty to horses because they're they're urban based reformers who

636
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: are looking at these horses out in New York City,

637
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: getting in London, getting whipped, getting knocked around in the street,

638
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: underfed horses just being put to work. Right. And so

639
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: that's really where this idea of animal cruelty um comes

640
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: comes into uh more widespread, I guess uh, um it

641
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: carries it carries more cloud among the wider public. Um.

642
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: And so really in the in the late sixties and

643
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 1: early seventies is when this stuff comes to a head.

644
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: When you when you when there became like an anti

645
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: hunting movement seventies, Yeah, a movement, yeah, Um. There there

646
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: are a number of groups founded in the mid sixties, um.

647
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: And and one of the reasons for this, and this

648
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: is what I look at in in this chapter is that, um,

649
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: some of these laws that are created in the sixties

650
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: and seventies to uh for purposes unrelated to the anti

651
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: hunting agenda are very quickly uh embraced by anting anti

652
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: hunting advocates in order to uh secure their own uh

653
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: desired outcomes. Right. And so give me an example, um, yes, yes,

654
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: a protection. Yeah, that's that's a good one. I mean,

655
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: the one that I really focus on in this uh,

656
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: in this chapter is the National Environmental Protection Act of

657
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine UM, which is signed into law in

658
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy And people know ANIPA as it's known because

659
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: it requires environmental impact statements, right, and so if if

660
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: the federal government is going to do some thing or

661
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: funds something, it requires that that experts come in and

662
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: assess what impact this action is going to have on

663
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: the environment, right. And this is something that if you

664
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: look back at the pages of Field and Stream and

665
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: out their Life, one of the more interesting things that

666
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: I found was that in nineteen forty four or forty five,

667
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: the editor of I believe it was Arthur Graham, who

668
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: is the editor of Outdoor Life at the time, is

669
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 1: calling for this almost this exact law because but he's

670
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: worried about um channelization and the construction of huge dams

671
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: in the post war era, and so he's writing in

672
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: and this is like in nineteen forty four. Yeah, and

673
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 1: so the I mean, this is this is what really

674
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: fascinates me is you can go back into these magazines

675
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: and this is an issue that's still selling war bonds, right,

676
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: and he's he's calling for a law and he I mean,

677
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 1: he uses the words, you know, we need a coordinating

678
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: law with sharp teeth that will hold government officials accountable

679
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: for what they do to the natural a world. Did

680
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: he lose his job? It was like people were on

681
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: board with this stuff. And what I think is and

682
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: you know, what I think is interesting is if you

683
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: look at these magazines through the through the forties, fifties,

684
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: sixties into the seventies, a lot of the a lot

685
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: of the things that they're calling for you would associate

686
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: with sort of cutting edge, avant garde environmentalism, you know,

687
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: if you consider them in context. Sure, man, the fact

688
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: that someone we've been talking about that then yeah, and

689
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: and he's he's writing in forty forty five, this law

690
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: isn't isn't signed. It's signed by President Nixon in the

691
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy and and it's still you know, at the

692
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: time of it's of its uh signing, it's it's still

693
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: held as you know, the largest achievement of the crowning

694
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: achievement of the environmental movement. Right, if you think about

695
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: what what environmental impact statements require, it's sort of incorporating

696
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: a new system, a new set of values into the

697
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: policy making process. It's a big deal. And he's calling

698
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: fort and forty four forty five. And when it came

699
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: around the anti hunters and the hunters, yeah, so gain

700
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: or had the hunters lost interest in about the seven No,

701
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: they were. They were still using it um and and

702
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: using targeted litigation to pursue their own ends right to

703
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: to pursue UM. They used it a lot. UH. Different

704
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: sportsman's groups used environment Olympac statements to challenge UM resource extraction, UH,

705
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: channelization of waterways, things like that, um and and it's

706
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 1: it's very much celebrated in the page of these magazines

707
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: when this law is is enacted. UM. But very quickly,

708
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: what you see that anti hunting groups are using lawsuits

709
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: and making claims under underneath they're saying the environment Olympac

710
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: statement for this hunting season didn't consider this alternative. And

711
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: essentially what environmental impact statement does is it asked that

712
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: somebody sit down and say, if we do a you know,

713
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: one to three will happen if we do be four, five,

714
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: six were happening. So it's sort of the systematic accounting

715
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: of what might happen through these various policies, an environmental

716
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: impact statement on a proposed hunting season. That's well, that's

717
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: what they that's what the anti hunting activists demanded that

718
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: they do in the nineteen sixties or in the nineteen seventies. Um,

719
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: and they start challenging just try to make it owners,

720
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: Try to make difficult, right, you slow things down and

721
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: and sort of the the real fear. And you see

722
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: this in the magazine some of these some of these

723
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: writers are saying, well, if they challenge Pittman Robertson with

724
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: the Pittman Robertson Act of seven, which is the act

725
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: that places an exercise tax on firearms and sporting equipment, etcetera, etcetera,

726
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: that funds much of the wildlife management in this country. Um,

727
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: the fear of research, habitat and all that stuff, right,

728
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's responsible for the sort of miraculous

729
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: recovery of all the wild game species in this country

730
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: between nineteen thirty and nine seventy. When we're talking about

731
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, in nineteen thirty, there's like half a

732
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: million deer in nineteen seventies, of fourteen million in nineteen

733
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: thirty there's uh, just a handful of and turkey and

734
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: turkeys are a great example. Antelope populations increased like something

735
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: like fourteen times in in this period of forty years. So, UM,

736
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: it's really a Pittman Robertson and and these funding structors

737
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: that are built around this model of consumptive use in hunting. UM.

738
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: That's sort of the backbone of of wildlife management in

739
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: this country. UM. And hunters, you know, hunters today, we'll

740
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: we'll tell you that with great pride right now. You

741
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: see that all the time. UM. And and actually the

742
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: fear among a lot of these writers in the seventies

743
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: is that Pittman Robertson will be challenged under uh NIPA.

744
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: And and it actually is. Their lawsuits filed and there's

745
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of behind the scenes wrangling, UM.

746
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: But but their wildlife wildlife officials, um, you know, government

747
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: administrators that they're saying, you should do an environmental impact

748
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: statement on Pittman Robertson. And what they're asking for, um

749
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 1: is that there have to be an accounting for every

750
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: single thing that Pittman Robertson dollars do, which is just uh,

751
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: totally unmanageable. So you want to put in like a

752
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: water tank somewhere and right exactly, you have to r exactly.

753
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: And so this is the this is really a moment

754
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: of crisis. Um. And you'll see, you know, if you

755
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: go back and read through these magazines, you can see

756
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: this all unfolding. Um. And so so in this chapter,

757
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: I look at the way you know, when anti hunters

758
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: harness environmental laws to their own agenda, it changes the

759
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: ways in which hunters perceive environmental loss. And so this

760
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 1: is one of you know, one of the questions that

761
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: why so many hunters now seem like burdened or annoyed

762
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: by the Endangered Species Act. Yeah, and and they're I mean,

763
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: they're all. Endangered Species Act is used um a lot

764
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: by anti hunters as sort of a marketing tool essentially,

765
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: I mean has great cultural cache in the nineteen seventies. Um.

766
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: You know, people have lunch boxes and stuff with charismatic megafauna,

767
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: and politicians are going out waving you know, when the

768
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: environmental when the Endangered Species Act has passed, it's wildly popular.

769
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: It's a wildly popular piece of legislation at a moment which, uh,

770
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: faith in government is declining. Precipitously right in the in

771
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: the early mid nineteen seventies. And so this is one

772
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: that lawmakers really hang their ad on. We're doing what

773
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: the people want, um, but very quickly endanger very quickly,

774
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: anti hunting advocates use claims revolving you know, using this language.

775
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: They're deploying this language of endangered species to target hunters

776
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: and blame hunters for environmental degradation. And so again in

777
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: the concept of endangered species is sort of weaponized. Um

778
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 1: and and and in a large part where this chapter

779
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: does is explores the polarization that we see between people

780
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: who identify as environmentalists and people who identifies as hunters.

781
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: And I know this is a gross, you know, oversimplification

782
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: of of who hunters are today, right, but I think

783
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: if you, if you talk to a lot of people,

784
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: the words environmentalists and hunters, they're not often used. That's

785
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: That's why that's why I say I'm a conservation exactly

786
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: term it too obvious, say conservations. But now and then

787
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: I just also say yeah, I'll just say like, well, no,

788
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 1: I'm an environmentalist, you know. Yeah, up until some point

789
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: the seventies, Horner's said I'm an environmentalist. But they were

790
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: using one of the people say, m we're using a

791
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: lot of them were using, um, the terms interchangeably, right.

792
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: Cons It's not as if concert the term conservationists all

793
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: of a sudden supplanted the term environmentalists these magazines in

794
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. But um, one of the interesting things

795
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: that you'll see is in the sixties and seventies, you know,

796
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: as the article is saying, you know, covering, uh, the

797
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: the development of outdoor education programs at colleges and taking

798
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: sort of these long haired hippie types into the woods

799
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: and teaching them about you know, camping and hiking and

800
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: this and that, and the readers of these magazines are saying,

801
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: this is great, we need these people on our side.

802
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that rings a bell. Just republished all those

803
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: articles now yeah. No, And so this is I mean

804
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: it's sort of echoes to you know, contemporary development, sort

805
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: of echo what I see in these sources from from

806
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: forty years ago. That's amazing. Three chapter three chapters. Cool,

807
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: leave chapter two for a minute. Yeah, absolutely, unless you're

808
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: least you feel like we missed the point. No, No,

809
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's sort of what I'm doing. That's

810
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: sort of what I what I look at is is um,

811
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: this this polarization and the changing politics of the word

812
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: sort of environmentalism in the hunting community. Um. Now, if

813
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: you really want to act like you're piste off at someone,

814
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: like you'd be like a tree hugger, right, you know,

815
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: But dude, I'm prone to hugger tree. No, no, man um,

816
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: especially when I'm trying to climb it. But you know,

817
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: I wanna tell you something real quick. The the one

818
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: note I had ahead of talking used to tell you

819
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: the story when I was in high school. I Gradurom

820
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: High schoo Okay, I grew up in western Michigan. In

821
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: one or two I can't remember. Me and the guys

822
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: I hung out with, largely as a joke but kind

823
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: of not. We started a group called hate Hunters against

824
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: teenage Environmentalists, and we had T shirts and wild game

825
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: dinners and we did like a fundraise, a can goods

826
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: drive as a fundraiser. Because we had never even heard

827
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: the word environment mentalists. Then all of a sudden it

828
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 1: was there, and we thought that like we were on

829
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: the impression that an environmentalist that that meant anti hunter. Yeah,

830
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: And because there was a school group. These kids in

831
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: school who were into charismatic megaphon and dolphins and stuff,

832
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: but a very strong anti hunting bent. Started like an

833
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: environmental group, but all they talked about was anti hunting

834
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: because in their mind that's what the debate was, right.

835
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: Their mind was like pitted a bit like, oh, yeah,

836
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: you're an environmentalist. Oh I hate hunting to write was

837
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: their tone many years ago. So we started hate. We

838
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: had T shirts and said, hey and off it was

839
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: hunters against teenage environmentalists. I said a joke, we'd have

840
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: Wildgate dinners and like. It was only years later that

841
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: I realized that that's not what that meant. Yeah, I

842
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: mean this is. I think this is. That's a pretty

843
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: common misconception. I think a lot of people associate the

844
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: term environmentalists with the politics of anti hunting. One of

845
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: my buddies from Hate just got hold of me and

846
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: sent me I'd lost my T shirt. He sent me

847
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: his old T shirt nice, which I hung in my

848
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: close in a safe place. My wife's like, best not

849
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 1: to share that one on social media. Yeah, but explain

850
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: you had for three to me? Chapter three looks don't

851
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: get less interesting, do they? Um, No, it's a writer's mistake,

852
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: man to put all the good stuff in the front,

853
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, No, it's uh, I sort of I

854
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 1: wrote it backwards, so I wrote the first chapter last,

855
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: and uh it was a sprint to the finish, so

856
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: I was just kind of hammering it out. But um, yeah.

857
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: Chapter three looks at uh gun control and the politics

858
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: of gun control on the pages of these magazines, and

859
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: how that conversation changes over time. When did the conversations start,

860
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: um in a way that we'd recognize it today. The Yeah,

861
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: I think the origins of the modern second Amendment debate

862
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: are in the nineties sixties. Um and And is the

863
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: Gun Control Act of ninety is sort of the the

864
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: foundational piece of the modern regulatory uh framework, right and

865
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: um and that's when the debate that we would recognize now, Well,

866
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: the debate changes in the seventies. Um and And this

867
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 1: is what that chapter looks at and it it really

868
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: looks at it. Um. I don't do it a really

869
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: detailed analysis of you know, this proposed bill, did this,

870
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: this proposed bill did that? I look at more popular

871
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: perception of this debate and and and the pages of

872
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: these magazines. When hunters say we as hunters have a

873
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: stake in this question where do we fall? UM on

874
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: what side are we? Um that the answer to that

875
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: is is in this sort of constant uh negotiation through

876
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: the seventies and um, you know the and and and

877
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: this conversation is also unfolding in relation to questions about

878
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: environmental protection. UM. Yeah, and well, I mean by the eighties,

879
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: you see guys writing into these magazines saying and and

880
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: this is this will sound familiar to a lot of

881
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: your listeners today. You know, we we vote Democratic and

882
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: we lose our guns to hunt with, or we vote

883
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: Republican and we lose our lands to hunt on. Dude,

884
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: I always say the same. This is something, this is

885
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: something that that you you know, I mean, there's a

886
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: there's a letter to the editor, um that that says

887
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: that exact uh that has that exact phrase in it

888
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: from UH. I think it's nineteen eight or nine four.

889
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: I think it's probably the the in in in the

890
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: lead up to the eight four election. U. After the

891
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: initial stage brush rebellion has fizzled out. Um. But but

892
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 1: this is one of sort of my my The central

893
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: assumptions of this project is that it's very hard for

894
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: people to to think about one question at a time,

895
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: right as we as as sort of political animals. You know,

896
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: all of these things are constantly uh influx in relation

897
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: to one another, and so political behavior isn't just you're

898
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: not presented with sort of an ideal ticket, um. And

899
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: these tickets change over time, and as a result, you know,

900
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: people have to ask themselves questions, what do I believe

901
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: in at this moment, where do my loyalties lie, etcetera, etcetera.

902
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: And so that chapter three looks at the emergence of

903
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: the modern Second Amendment debate, how it changes in the seventies,

904
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: and and ultimately how sportsmen react to this um new

905
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: point of fracture in American political life, and how did

906
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 1: they react, um, I think, without with without getting to

907
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: uh detailed here, in the late nineteen sixties and early

908
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, it was far more common to see sportsmen say, uh,

909
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: we occupy sort of a position of influence in this

910
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: debate because we have a legitimate purpose um. And these

911
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: are the words that they're using. They're not mine, but

912
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: we have a legitimate purpose for these firearms, and so

913
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: we should use our position of influence um, in order

914
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: to come up with reasonable solutions UM and it's in

915
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: the late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies you see

916
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: sort of the larger UH and and there's obviously exceptions

917
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: to this. It's it's very much in debate, but there's

918
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: there's a large element calling for a position of moderation

919
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: on these issues. The debate becomes much more polarized in

920
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: the mid seventies UM nineteen seventy, nineteen seventy five in particular,

921
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: UM and there are some all you know, there are

922
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: there are a number of other developments, but increasingly the

923
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: position of sort of UM uncompromising hardline opposition to new

924
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: firearm regulation becomes a more popular opinion, as expressed in

925
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: these magazines, Well there had to be new firearms, Like

926
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: when I look at fire are issues now, it's so

927
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: much has to do with you don't hear the word

928
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: very often, but a lot of it has to do

929
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: with technology. Roy's grappling with when I say, oh, the

930
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: American public, whatever side of this issue around or always

931
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: grappling with, well, what are we gonna do about what

932
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: you might consider to be emerging technologies? Right? You know? Right? UM?

933
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: Availability on the marketplace of things that weren't available on

934
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: the marketplace before. So is what you're talking about? Was

935
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: that driven by availability of new weapons classes or was

936
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 1: it just like well, the in the in the mid

937
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: nineties seventies, the concern, uh is pistols that are called

938
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: quote unquote Saturday Night specials. Right, and it's in the

939
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: debates and stuff you don't even think about now. The

940
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: debate sort of echoes what you hear about quote unquote

941
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: assault rifles today. Right. People are arguing this as an

942
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: arbitrary categorization that you know, one a gun of another

943
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: type could do, could be equally as harmful or injurious

944
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: whatever like just like but it's but it's a big

945
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: I mean, and and you know what you think about it, Uh,

946
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: it's actually a pretty um, it's a pretty mainstream debate.

947
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: I Mean, there's a there's a cover of Field and

948
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: stream h called Saturday Night that the title of the

949
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: feature pieces Saturday Night Special the real issue. And it's

950
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: got this big smoking handgun on the cover. It's this

951
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 1: illustration and and the the author of the peace Bob

952
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: Bob Brister I believe is the author of the piece.

953
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: He essentially writes, Um, we have no use for these

954
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: and as gun owners, we shouldn't be lumped in with um,

955
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, street thugs and this and that and these

956
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: criminals and what that was. That was the editorial stance.

957
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: There was a big blowback to that. And and and

958
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: this is part of what I look at is the

959
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: politics of you know, there's this larger suspicion at the

960
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: time to um CBS owns Field and Stream, and CBS

961
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: puts out at the time at the time, Yeah, and

962
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: they put out um some really sort of nasty anti

963
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: hunting hit pieces as documentaries on TV. The Guns of

964
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: Autumn is one UM and and so readers there there

965
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: are a lot of letters to the editor. And I

966
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: also looked at the personal papers of writers and editors

967
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: for these magazines, and you'll see that they're getting mail saying,

968
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: are you guys in control of your magazine or is

969
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: it the the guys up at CBS. UM and so

970
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: there's the and so so Field and Stream has to

971
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: sort of, uh steal its resolve essentially and really come

972
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: out as you know, we are on the sportsman side

973
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: in this one. And they adopt a more hardline position editorially.

974
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And and I mean there's this is this

975
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: is at the time when suspicion of the media um

976
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: becomes more popular. Uh in American life. The story of

977
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: Jim Zumbo. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah no, And it's very very,

978
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: very exactly, it's very similar to that. It's very similar

979
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: to that. And so this is well, I'm not familiar,

980
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: you're not so Oh my god. I mean it's such

981
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: a you know the name of Jim Zumble, venerable, long

982
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: time hunt done a lot for hunting, a long time

983
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: gone right, a long time hunting writer. He right when

984
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: blogging kind of started. He had done a blog entry

985
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: where he had come from. He was blogging, I believe

986
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: from Wyoming. I've been on hunting Kyles and mentions in

987
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: his blog. Let me back up and say, this guy

988
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: had been I think he'd been a staffer at out

989
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: their Life for twenty five years. Was sponsored by all

990
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: the big players. Okay, had his own like Jerkys, his

991
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: own everything, right, I mean, he was like the name

992
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: he's like the Bill Dance of hunting and shared with

993
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: his blog readers his opinion that or he relates the

994
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: story how he was hunting Kyle to some guys who

995
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: were telling him how guys have started hunting coyotes with

996
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:25,479
Speaker 1: a RS and he says, hunters have no business using

997
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: these terrorist guns. I say, Bannon from the woods right now,

998
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: now immediately, I mean his show, all his sponsorships, his

999
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: position at the man like everything was immediately stripped through

1000
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: public outrage. And he later attempted or redact, like how

1001
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: do he say that word? Redact? He would later try

1002
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: to redact and he said that he had been out

1003
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: in the wind all day and had it has been

1004
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: a long day. It was very tired man when he said,

1005
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:04,439
Speaker 1: and that didn't work. Um. And later he went through

1006
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 1: a he went through a very public sort of he

1007
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: like enlisted himself sort of in a re education camp,

1008
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, um, in a very public way, and went

1009
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: hunting with the guns that he had said he was

1010
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: opposed to, and did a did a lot of steps

1011
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: to try to you know, recuperate. And it was like

1012
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: everything about it was sad. I don't know about what's sad, um, clearly,

1013
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: you know it was kind of in one way, it

1014
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: was kind of the beginning of uh of just like that,

1015
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: like here's a guy who's always gone through like an

1016
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:52,479
Speaker 1: editorial process, right, and it always you know, you write

1017
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: something you write another draft, right, and that kind of

1018
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,479
Speaker 1: stuff like gives you time to sort of like filter

1019
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: out like what you're thinking and what you're sing, you know,

1020
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: like what do you really believe? Like I'll get like

1021
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: everyone has written a really nasty email at eleven at night,

1022
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: right two, and then if you have the wherewithal to

1023
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: not hit sand at eight in the morning, you'd be like, wow,

1024
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not gonna quite put it that way.

1025
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put a different way. But he didn't. He did.

1026
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: He just put this out there like bann them, you know,

1027
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 1: and people took him very literally, like so it's never

1028
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: really clear like what he and it was clear like

1029
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: he said what he said, right, but you don't know

1030
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: like had he gone through his normal thinking on it,

1031
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, and talked to his buddies, right, and the

1032
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: buds he said, well, you don't think about this way, Jimmy,

1033
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: not look at this way or whatever, and you think

1034
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: about the ramifications what you're saying. And but it was

1035
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: just like it was it was it was just painful.

1036
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: I mean, this guy had really in many ways devoted

1037
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: his life to um the promotion of hunting, you know,

1038
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: and it was just I mean, just eviscerated and just

1039
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: like people who never heard of Jim Zumble on whatever

1040
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: morning that was on Tuesday, we're feigning just the biggest disappointment,

1041
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It was like it was

1042
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: quick he became famous in a crowd that he who

1043
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: had never been famous with you know. Um, it was

1044
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: just it was that was sad. It was sad watching

1045
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 1: him have to sort of like do I always thought

1046
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: of when the communists like rolled into Saigon and put

1047
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: millions of people in re education camps. It was like

1048
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: it was like him having to go to re education

1049
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: camp because he's just like a like an old guy.

1050
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: And then out of that came the term like a fud, right,

1051
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 1: a fud and you're a fund as a dude again,

1052
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: I've been accused of being a fund. A fund is

1053
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,479
Speaker 1: a guy who looks at firearm issues through the lens

1054
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: of a hunter, because like Elmer Fund, I guess he's

1055
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: got a shitty gun. I don't know, so I'll be like,

1056
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: you're like a fud if you view because in all honesty,

1057
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,439
Speaker 1: the Second Amendment has no mention hunting. Like I'll always

1058
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 1: have people say like, oh yeah, well you should be

1059
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: able to have guns because you hunt. I'm like, wow,

1060
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, you know, in some respect, maybe I'm glad

1061
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: you feel that way because at least you allowed that

1062
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 1: there is a reason to have guns, like in your mind,

1063
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: like it's not like a dead end deal. But the

1064
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: frameworers of the Constitution, the Second Amendment, we're not thinking

1065
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: about the guys right to go out and shoot squirrels

1066
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 1: right there, Like it wasn't what they were trying to protect.

1067
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: If it was, they would have said something like that

1068
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: it was not on their mind. So that's not like

1069
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: a plausible argument. But the whole thing was sad. The

1070
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: whole thing was sad. Read up on. I wrote a

1071
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: thing in Salon about Jim zombo Um when it was

1072
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: just like I just wish he had sad on what

1073
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: he said and thought about it for a couple of

1074
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: days because I feel, having never met the guy, um,

1075
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: I feel that he would have like whatever, a couple

1076
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: of days later he'd be like, well, you know, I

1077
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: don't like it, Like there's what, like, let's think about

1078
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 1: the message we're sending. He would have like he wouldn't

1079
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: have went out and said like let's ban him. Now.

1080
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: I think it was just I don't think it's what

1081
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: he would have I don't think it's what he meant. Well,

1082
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: I don't do it's what he would have said had

1083
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: he thought about it longer. And I think that he

1084
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 1: got so just like it was just watching like a

1085
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: nice old man just get beat to death on the curb.

1086
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: But a lot of people look at like a great victory,

1087
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: great victory, and it kind of sent a message like

1088
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: don't method us, you know, And I think that that,

1089
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: you know, the message resonated. But anyhow, it's just funny,

1090
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: like when you talk about that story, it's like you

1091
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: that story plays out now and then Yeah, I mean

1092
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: a lot of what I see in these magazines thirty

1093
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: forty fifty years ago, um, they they echo events and

1094
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 1: developments that I remember from my own time in my

1095
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,479
Speaker 1: lifetime reading these mag as a reader, right and as

1096
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 1: a researcher. So that was really interesting to see. I mean,

1097
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: the blowback from that wasn't you know, it wasn't this swift,

1098
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 1: And I think technology tightens that. People just falling in love.

1099
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: People were falling in love with the web man. But

1100
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: you absolutely get uh, you know, you absolutely would see

1101
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 1: letters to the editor from from the mid nineties seventies,

1102
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: saying who's in control of of the editorial position of

1103
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: this magazine? Is it you, guys um or can we

1104
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: trust you? Or as CBS dictating the content here? Did

1105
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 1: another editor recently publish a anti gun letter to the

1106
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:41,439
Speaker 1: editor and lost his job? I'm not sure. I can't

1107
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: remember where I think he published. Just telling you listeners,

1108
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: I could be messing this up. I don't think I am.

1109
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: If i'm if I'm messing it up, I'm not messing

1110
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: up the main just I'm messing up a detail. A

1111
01:05:53,400 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: an editor I believe published a anti gun like a

1112
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: gun editor at a gun magazine published an anti gun

1113
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 1: letter to the editor was in losses lost the position,

1114
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: which is like which which is weirder than the zumble

1115
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 1: thing weirder because it's sort of like, uh, you know,

1116
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: it was almost like he was sort of using the

1117
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: magazine as sort of like a place for debate in

1118
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: a place that where debate wasn't welcome in it is

1119
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, that's a tricky thing I would

1120
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:26,600
Speaker 1: never do. Like an episode on my show, well, I remember,

1121
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: like this week a meat eater, We're not going hunting,

1122
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: We're going to an anti hunting convention, right, you know,

1123
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean it would be like, uh, it'd be weird.

1124
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: Well that's I mean, what's funny though, And this is

1125
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 1: one of the larger takeaways from the project that I

1126
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 1: see over in terms of measuring sort of the larger

1127
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: change over time is that hunting's public culture. I feel

1128
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties before you have

1129
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 1: these these uh, larger public challenges to hunting, it's a

1130
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 1: it's a it's a public culture that's much more open

1131
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: to debate. I mean in in Outdoor Life publishes and

1132
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 1: and uh, oh fifty four maybe um or maybe this

1133
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: is forty eight, they published an article called why I

1134
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: gave Up Hunting and they say, this guy makes it.

1135
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: You know, we're not we're not saying we're on board

1136
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: with this, but he he makes a compelling case, and

1137
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: we thought that this voice should be heard. Have you

1138
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: seen something he didn't want to see? Um? I mean

1139
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: he he basically just described this as a he he

1140
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 1: sort of woke up one day that the author of

1141
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: the piece. I'm not sure i'ming to remember is the

1142
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 1: author's name, but basically says I woke up one day

1143
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: and sort of realized that um, what I was doing,

1144
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: uh was sort of indulging a more primitive uh side

1145
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: of me that that right, yeah, yeah, And and they

1146
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: publish it, right, and you can't imagine that story. You

1147
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: could get it published, but it wouldn't be published in

1148
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: field stream outdoor life, right, right exactly. And so the

1149
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 1: question I mean, and and you can sort of be,

1150
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 1: uh be skeptical and say they're just you know, publishing

1151
01:07:57,320 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 1: that piece, They're fanning the flames and sort of you know,

1152
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 1: drawing lines and sam, but I really do you know,

1153
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: you look at there there's debate about the morality of

1154
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 1: hunting in the forties and fifties and early sixties before

1155
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: the anti hunting movement really gains attraction, But the debate

1156
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: is much more um Ah, I don't know what the

1157
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: right word to use. I mean there there's a spirit

1158
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 1: of sort of honest consideration of other viewpoints that that

1159
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: you don't see as much in contemporary culture. Well, I

1160
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 1: would argue that honestly, we know what I mean, like

1161
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 1: the hunting like the hunting community. Who who feels the

1162
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 1: compulsion to engage in the debate about hunting? Right? Lovely?

1163
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: This hunt right right, Like my brothers when you talk

1164
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 1: about they don't like they don't you know, it's just

1165
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: not what they're doing, right, They're not like sitting talking

1166
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: to someone about it right now all day in time,

1167
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: but they're talking about something else, right. So Anyways, those

1168
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,759
Speaker 1: of us who you're right grapple with this stuff verbally

1169
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 1: with other people. Um, we're not like talking right now.

1170
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: The broader hunting community isn't talking right now about like

1171
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: so much like to hunt or not to hunt. But

1172
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: we are having a very spirited, very divisive debates about

1173
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: high fence, right, yeah, about long range shooting, long range technologies. Um,

1174
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: the drone thing. I thought it was gonna become big,

1175
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 1: but so many states are getting out ahead of it

1176
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:30,759
Speaker 1: so quickly that it might not become an issue. Laser

1177
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 1: range finders right, souped up compound bows. It's like we're

1178
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: always sort of Um, there is still that debate because

1179
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: I can't think of a hunting writer or or a

1180
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: shooting magazine editor who has a weighed in on what's

1181
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: too far a shot. But I think too that there's

1182
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: another side to these conversations. There's there's a very vocal

1183
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: element of the hunting public today that says hunters shouldn't

1184
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: be criticized and other hunters right, and that I think

1185
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: that's a product of this, this this cultural shift that

1186
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 1: that I tracked in the in the in the dissertation

1187
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 1: of the seven sixties, seventies, primarily the seventies is sort

1188
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: of my big pivotal decade. But I think this, you know,

1189
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 1: us hunters have our backs to the wall. We don't

1190
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: need to be debating the ethics of what the guy

1191
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 1: next to you is doing. And and I think that

1192
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: is an unhealthy I think that's that's that guy's pulling

1193
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: that guy's pulling the plug on the boat. Yeah, like

1194
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: when we're on this boat together. But just cut ahold

1195
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 1: at the bottom up and there's there's all chapter four.

1196
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: But if you got any concluding thoughts about three later,

1197
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: I want to make sure to cover your whole deal

1198
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,280
Speaker 1: for chapter four. Chapter four was the one I was

1199
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: going to begin with because chapter four tracks the changing

1200
01:10:52,160 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 1: culture of wild game consumption from to and that's pretty

1201
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 1: interesting in the way in which the changing and sort

1202
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: of sort of how the changing ways in which hunters

1203
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: used to meet that they that they kill, that they harvest, whatever, um.

1204
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: That how that changes how they imagine what they're doing.

1205
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: So if you can't fill the freezer for the winner

1206
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: to feed your family all year because you don't own

1207
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: a freezer, because it's what are you doing? Right? And yeah,

1208
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: and and I mean refrigerators. Refrigerators are far more widespread

1209
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: in the immediate post war period, but freezer ownership is

1210
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 1: it doesn't really take off until the mid sixties. I've

1211
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 1: never thought about that. I mean, that's similar to that. Yeah,

1212
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 1: Daniel Boone, Okay, on up, Jim Bridger, jet Smith. They

1213
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: did all that ship without flashlights. Man, when it got

1214
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: dark it was dark. Yeah. Yeah, you can do some

1215
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 1: shop with a candle or a fire, but they did

1216
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: without flashlights. You go out and spend a couple of

1217
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 1: weeks in the was of no flashlight. And I'm not

1218
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 1: talking about Alaska in July, but like I spent a

1219
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 1: couple weeks and realize how much stuff you get done

1220
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 1: under artificial illumination and how much like really important stuff

1221
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: happens on artificial illumination. Imagine, like it's like one day

1222
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 1: I was a currenty Like wow, man, when it got

1223
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: dark it was dark. Yeah, but no refridge, Like what

1224
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 1: were they? What did they what did they say when

1225
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: they had no fridge? Well, it's hard to I mean,

1226
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to generalize, right, But one of the

1227
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 1: things that you so, so what what struck? And this

1228
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 1: wasn't initially a chapter in the project, but as I'm

1229
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:42,799
Speaker 1: reading through these magazines I and and especially local newspaper columns,

1230
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 1: you kept I kept running into these anecdotes about, uh,

1231
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 1: you know, people only eat things they shoot because they

1232
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 1: want an excuse to shoot another something like that. Whereas

1233
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: I think that the people still say that, well, yeah,

1234
01:12:57,080 --> 01:13:00,560
Speaker 1: but I think that and obviously they're options, but I

1235
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 1: think that for the most part, Um, what what I

1236
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 1: saw over this several decade long period is a changing, uh,

1237
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: a much more widespread adoption of the ethics of consuming

1238
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: what you kill. Right. Um. And obviously people have consumed

1239
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: what they killed since the dawn of time, right, but

1240
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: there's certain it's why people into hunting. Yeah, it is right.

1241
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: But but if you look at like the late nineteen

1242
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 1: forties and early nineteen fifties, Um, I mean one of

1243
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 1: the things that I one of the things that I

1244
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: never really thought about before I got into the project

1245
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: is um hunting became much more popular in the immediate

1246
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: post war decade. We we often think about hunting is

1247
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 1: sort of this declension. You know, at one point in

1248
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: history all people hunted to to live, and that number

1249
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 1: has just been steadily declining. But hunting um sort of

1250
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 1: like religiosity. There are moments of revival, right yeah, huge,

1251
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 1: Basically this whole generation like that my dad started. My

1252
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,639
Speaker 1: dad started getting serious about big game hunting immediately after

1253
01:13:57,680 --> 01:13:59,560
Speaker 1: World War Two. I mean, like, there's a lot of

1254
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 1: guys round who used to traveling around, used to hang.

1255
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 1: All those guys having a good time. They were stir crazy, right,

1256
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 1: like they didn't want to get into the thing. The

1257
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 1: Hell's Angels came out at the same time, my dad

1258
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 1: like cruised around with buddies of his and they hunted

1259
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 1: because they were out of their mind. I mean, it's

1260
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 1: a it's a phenomenon, yeah, I mean it's it's a

1261
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 1: it's a post war phenomenon. So in nineteen forty there's

1262
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: like seven millions something hunting license is sold, and by

1263
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty it's like fourteen million. It's it nearly doubles.

1264
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 1: And think how ald those guys were too. It's like

1265
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 1: now the average hunter is what like in his late

1266
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 1: forties or fifties or something like that. I mean, this

1267
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: guys years old and so and and it's funny, I

1268
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,799
Speaker 1: mean the way that you phrase that there's an editorial

1269
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 1: and outdoor life before the end of the war, and

1270
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:48,880
Speaker 1: and the I'm the author's escaping me at the moment,

1271
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 1: But he writes, you can't introduce millions of young men

1272
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: to the joys of firearms and living in the woods

1273
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 1: and not expect and expect them to just give it up,

1274
01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: you know, at the drop of that hat. Right. Remember

1275
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: a neighbor down the road of ours who was a pilot,

1276
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 1: like flew a plane in World War Two, And he

1277
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 1: later talked about getting home from World War two and

1278
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: and asked some kind of like the things he did

1279
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 1: for a while, and he said, I enrolled like he

1280
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: had the g I bill enrolled in school, sat there

1281
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: for a couple of days and just realized, after what

1282
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:23,640
Speaker 1: I just did for two years, you've got to be

1283
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:27,840
Speaker 1: kidding me. Sitting chair, you know, Yeah, there's just no way.

1284
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: And and so this is I mean, it's it's a

1285
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 1: new passion for a lot of a lot of young

1286
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 1: men in this period. And if you think about the

1287
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: numbers of wildlife that existed in the nineteen thirties or

1288
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, prior to Pittman Robertson, prior to this through

1289
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: rebounding of all these wild game populations. You think about

1290
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 1: how that changed, um, sort of the culture of hunting, right,

1291
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,599
Speaker 1: if there's if there aren't any deer in your backyard

1292
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:53,679
Speaker 1: to shoot, sort of what it means to to drive

1293
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:55,840
Speaker 1: to the north Woods, get your deer and come back home.

1294
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:58,720
Speaker 1: You're not taking you know, your little kid out on

1295
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 1: the weekend and going hunting with them, right, It's it's

1296
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: your your war buddies. You're taking your red and black

1297
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,879
Speaker 1: checkered outright. But but what you know, with the novelty

1298
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 1: of this behavior for a lot of these guys, Um,

1299
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 1: there are some complications. Rates of accidental shooting skyrocket in

1300
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: the late nineteen forties and early nineteen shot Oh yeah, yeah,

1301
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is a huge sports illustrated

1302
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: I think in like the nineteen fifty two predicted that

1303
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 1: more hunters would get shot that year than like moose,

1304
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 1: big horn, wild goat, and they list you know, basically

1305
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 1: everything other than deer. They said more, you know, more

1306
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 1: American men are going to get shot in this hunting

1307
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 1: season and all of these species of big game combined.

1308
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 1: My old man loved the irony of the fact that

1309
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,839
Speaker 1: he had was on the Anzio Beach, had invasion. Okay,

1310
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 1: fought all through the Italian Peninsula, marks all way to France,

1311
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: and was injured, but never by a bullet, never scratched

1312
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 1: to buy a bullet, and came home and they were

1313
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 1: hunting rabbits and the guy shot him in the foot

1314
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 1: of the twelve gate shotgun point blank range. You know, yeah,

1315
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: it's just like he's like, how could that be? I mean,

1316
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:16,320
Speaker 1: it was a common experience, relatively speaking, but get but

1317
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 1: get me into the like, okay, how would they deal

1318
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:22,160
Speaker 1: what what? Before? When these guys all start hunting deer,

1319
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 1: they don't have freezers. They're not like seasoned woodsman who

1320
01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: know how to smoke hands and know how to do

1321
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 1: like primitive old school meat preservation techniques. Would you just

1322
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:34,680
Speaker 1: good deering, party with it and eat it in a week?

1323
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 1: Well that's that's why I mean, I found a lot

1324
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: of references to guys running around town trying to hand

1325
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: meat off to neighbors and and this and that, right,

1326
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of the thing. Before it's spoiled. Um.

1327
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 1: And there you know, you could rent freezer space. Um.

1328
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 1: And sportsmen were earlier adopters of this technology, freezers and

1329
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,680
Speaker 1: and other Americans and and freezer companies. Actually you'll see

1330
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 1: these advertisements in in the late early nineteen fifties when

1331
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 1: these freezer manufacturers starting to really push this technology. They're saying, hey,

1332
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: imagine eating year round what you killed this fall. Yeah,

1333
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: And they're actually laws on the books in the late

1334
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 1: nineteen forties. Um. You know. One of the ways in

1335
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 1: which some of the early wildlife regulations prohibitor intended to

1336
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:28,679
Speaker 1: curtail poaching was by um criminalizing possession of wild game

1337
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: within X number of days after the end of the season.

1338
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 1: And in some states, I think it was like five

1339
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 1: or six states when the season ended, you can't have

1340
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: any any wild game in your house, yeah, and so

1341
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:42,640
Speaker 1: and so there, because social was if you have it,

1342
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 1: you probably shot it last Yeah. Um, you know, why

1343
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: would you why would you have a tenderloin from Why

1344
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,640
Speaker 1: tell you shot you know, six months ago? Something like that,

1345
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: as so many people do today. But so so in

1346
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 1: these magazines. If you look at these magazines in in

1347
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,240
Speaker 1: the late nineteen forties, some of these editors are saying,

1348
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,679
Speaker 1: we need to we need to reinvent these laws because

1349
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 1: there's more and more sportsmen by freezers and have the

1350
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: means to preserve while gaming around. These laws are actually

1351
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: going to penalize law abiding sportsmen, or they're gonna penalize

1352
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:16,960
Speaker 1: sportsman who want to conserve this this meat music to

1353
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 1: feed their family. Um. And so I mean another side

1354
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: story or another sort of thing that you'll see in

1355
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 1: these magazines again again and also in in newspapers. Um,

1356
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:34,760
Speaker 1: these accounts people sort of openly acknowledging that most and

1357
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: you'll you'll see these words. And so it's not my

1358
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:40,560
Speaker 1: sort of me poking at people in the past, but

1359
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 1: you'll see these words again again. Most of the wild

1360
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 1: game in this country is wasted. You'll see that. I mean,

1361
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 1: you'll see it in anywhere from Ladies home journal to

1362
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 1: UH to field and streamed outdoor life. It's sort of

1363
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:58,320
Speaker 1: this open, ugly secret. Well it's not, yeah, I mean,

1364
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:02,639
Speaker 1: And but I think back then the difference is back

1365
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:09,679
Speaker 1: then the there wasn't a sort of the the ethical

1366
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 1: consideration of wasting what you kill wasn't nearly as prominent

1367
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:16,280
Speaker 1: on the page of these magazines UM and that really

1368
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:19,600
Speaker 1: is it because they didn't have an awareness of finiteness

1369
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: or or or is it something different. It's a point

1370
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:24,919
Speaker 1: of concern I think for a lot of wildlife officials

1371
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:28,280
Speaker 1: and administrators who are tasked with conserving this resource, and

1372
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 1: those are sort of the terms that they view it in.

1373
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: And so in the nineteen sixties you see state fish

1374
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 1: and Game UH departments putting out cookbooks and putting out

1375
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:39,840
Speaker 1: guides on how to prey and and this is something

1376
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:43,000
Speaker 1: that agricultural extension services throughout the country had been doing,

1377
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 1: you know, piecemeal, but it really takes off in the sixties,

1378
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 1: especially as freezer has become more available. And then especially

1379
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 1: once hunting comes under um pressure from anti hunting activists

1380
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 1: who are saying, you're doing this, you know, just to

1381
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 1: serve some kind of blood lust or this or that,

1382
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's a wasteful, destructive practice. Increasingly UM hunters

1383
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 1: are defending their pastime by um highlighting that they're using

1384
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:15,600
Speaker 1: this as a means to feed their family. UM. And

1385
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:18,920
Speaker 1: and there's a huge social scientific literature from the nineties

1386
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 1: seventies where there are public opinion polls of of the

1387
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:24,840
Speaker 1: general public, not just hunters and anti hunters, but of

1388
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 1: the non hunting sort of disinterested public right, and the

1389
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 1: approval figures of hunting are much much higher as they

1390
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 1: are today when you emphasize, uh, the the eating, the

1391
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 1: consumptive aspect of it, right, eating what you kill, UM,

1392
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: And so that in the seventies this really takes off

1393
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:49,919
Speaker 1: in it also, I also tie it in or dovetail

1394
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:55,800
Speaker 1: it with um the economic misfortune of a lot of

1395
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 1: uh the country during this period, Like if you think

1396
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:05,160
Speaker 1: about again d industrialization, economic stagnation. UH. You see in

1397
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 1: the sources, you'll see in magazine articles that you know, verbatim,

1398
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:11,560
Speaker 1: Deer hunting in the North Woods this year took on

1399
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 1: a new uh, a new level of significance as out

1400
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:18,639
Speaker 1: of work, Yeah, as as laid off auto workers are

1401
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 1: trying to figure out a way to provide for their families.

1402
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 1: You know, we had that a few years ago. It

1403
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:29,360
Speaker 1: was announced too much fanfare that there had been a

1404
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:34,680
Speaker 1: slight uptick in license sales. You know, people were very

1405
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 1: excited about it, and UM, many people interpreted those numbers,

1406
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 1: and one interpretation you kept seeing again and again was

1407
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 1: it was contemporaneous with economic crash. And then you had

1408
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:52,240
Speaker 1: a lot of dudes who had a lot of time

1409
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 1: on their hands and did a lot of hunt in

1410
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: those couple of years. Yeah, I mean, and the people

1411
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:00,600
Speaker 1: that are that really uh, some of some of the

1412
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:05,000
Speaker 1: people that were hit the hardest by the the economics

1413
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 1: stagnation in the nineties seventies. Um, we're blue collar, middle

1414
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 1: class breadwinners in you know, the upper rust belt Michigan.

1415
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 1: You think about strong deer hunting culture, right, and so

1416
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:20,439
Speaker 1: in that context, this behavior, this practice takes on a

1417
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:23,360
Speaker 1: new significance. This is how and this is you'll see

1418
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:25,640
Speaker 1: this again and again if you look at local newspapers

1419
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:29,439
Speaker 1: and like Youngstown, Ohio, places like that, there's a story,

1420
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, a local interest story come Christmas time about

1421
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 1: an out of work, uh, out of work guy who

1422
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 1: went out and fed his family for the winner, you know,

1423
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 1: with a deer too. And it becomes yeah, and it

1424
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 1: becomes sort of this trope um that you just don't

1425
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: really see. And and it's not to say that people

1426
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 1: didn't consume what they killed in the forties and fifties,

1427
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:53,840
Speaker 1: but it just takes it resonates in new ways in

1428
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 1: the imagination in these other contexts. Chatter five, Chapter five

1429
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 1: after five time. Yeah, how long we've been talking? Probably overboard.

1430
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 1: We're getting there, but no, I think we can. We

1431
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 1: can finish up Chapter five. Chapter five some final thoughts

1432
01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:14,600
Speaker 1: or yeah. Chapter five. Chapter five looks at UM, the

1433
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:21,080
Speaker 1: ways in which the hunting in American life is increasingly

1434
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:25,160
Speaker 1: debated with rights based claims UM in the nineteen seventies

1435
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 1: and nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties. You know, people claiming

1436
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:32,480
Speaker 1: I have a right to hunt and and and conversely,

1437
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 1: I also look at the politics of of tribal hunting

1438
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 1: and fishing rights because the two unfold simultaneously. UM and

1439
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:44,639
Speaker 1: and I really sort of tell the story of UM. Obviously,

1440
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 1: people have claimed that their rights to hunt, dating back

1441
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:53,400
Speaker 1: UM much longer, right, further back than than this period

1442
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:55,960
Speaker 1: that I'm considering. But Daniel Boone had no right to

1443
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:58,880
Speaker 1: be doing what he was doing. Much one he was

1444
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:02,280
Speaker 1: doing was land claimed by the British clown crown, and

1445
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 1: he was like trespassing not only on a Native American land,

1446
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 1: he was trespassing on the land claimed by another country. Yeah. So,

1447
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:12,560
Speaker 1: so one of the interesting things that I discovered in

1448
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 1: my research was this article from like a law review

1449
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties. And this guy's making mention of

1450
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 1: the fact that Pennsylvania at the time of the Constitutional

1451
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 1: Convention had a pretty radical democratic, small d democratic political culture.

1452
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:33,480
Speaker 1: Um and in Pennsylvania, I'm I'm certain that it's Pennsylvania.

1453
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm also certain that nobody else is gonna call me

1454
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 1: out on this one, but I think Pennsylvania suggested incorporating

1455
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:41,519
Speaker 1: into the Bill of Rights a right to hunt on

1456
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 1: all unoccupied lands within the new nation. Man. And it

1457
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 1: was Jettison, really yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was that

1458
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:57,760
Speaker 1: was But yeah, so this this guy like in the

1459
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:01,120
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, apparently a dug up some transcript of of

1460
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,160
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia delegation or something like that when they're meeting

1461
01:26:05,240 --> 01:26:09,160
Speaker 1: to debate the ratification of the Constitution. Anyway, Um so

1462
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 1: I look at I look at the ways in which

1463
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 1: and and part of it stems from the rise of

1464
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 1: new anti hunting strategies like um, um, you know, folks

1465
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 1: showing up in the woods trying to disrupt hunts and

1466
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 1: hunters making claims I have a right to be here.

1467
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:26,639
Speaker 1: This is a little it's like a lot of states

1468
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 1: ratified rassment. Yeah, this is the sort of the origins

1469
01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 1: of the modern debate over hunter harassment loss which is

1470
01:26:32,479 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 1: what I look at, I have a right to hunt.

1471
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm doing something lawful, authorized by the state, um and

1472
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:42,320
Speaker 1: and my rights are being infringed upon. But yeah, it's

1473
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 1: kind of you probably know better, but it's like an

1474
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 1: implied right. Be like like because you know, people are

1475
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 1: talk about the right deprivacy the constitution, right, there is

1476
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: no it's an interpretation, right, there's no one because there's

1477
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,240
Speaker 1: a you know, the right privacy, which is like a

1478
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:00,959
Speaker 1: thing where like we accept that that's an that that's implied.

1479
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:03,599
Speaker 1: That's what idea, that right privacy. So people talk about

1480
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:05,840
Speaker 1: you have a right to hunt, it kind of winds up.

1481
01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:09,920
Speaker 1: It's like, um, you have like an implied right. There's

1482
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:12,759
Speaker 1: like a cult. There's like an hereditary cultural thing enabling

1483
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:15,880
Speaker 1: you to hunt. And then it's interesting to see like

1484
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: the hunter harassment stuff was almost kind of a step

1485
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 1: in the direction of saying like, well, at least have

1486
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:24,479
Speaker 1: the right to hunt without you messing with me. Yeah,

1487
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 1: And and the debate over these hunter harassment laws centers

1488
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 1: around competing rights claims because the anti hunting activists advocates

1489
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them, um argue that these

1490
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 1: laws are infringing my right to test or to free

1491
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:44,320
Speaker 1: speech or whatever you want to call it right and

1492
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:49,640
Speaker 1: so so ultimately, um, sort of the the stakes of

1493
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:52,400
Speaker 1: this hunting and anti hunting debate are amplified by the

1494
01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 1: arena in which it's taking place, or the the language

1495
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:57,479
Speaker 1: in which it's taking place of rights claims, right space claims,

1496
01:27:57,479 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 1: which are pretty powerful claims in American political culture, especially

1497
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 1: in the second half of the twentieth century, following all

1498
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 1: of the big so you know, social movements, the civil

1499
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 1: rights movement of the nineteen sixties, seventies and eighties whatever. So. Um, So,

1500
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 1: the fact that this is a language that's being adopted

1501
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: and appropriated in order to you know, engage in this

1502
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:23,880
Speaker 1: contest over the the the ethics of hunting, the morality

1503
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 1: of hunting, heightens heightens the sort of emotional stakes that

1504
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:31,680
Speaker 1: people have in it. Um. And so that's that's that chapter, UM.

1505
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 1: And then that blog. That blog looks at and it's

1506
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 1: just really briefly, UM, looks at this debate over public

1507
01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:44,759
Speaker 1: lands that you know, it's around the late nineteenth century,

1508
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,679
Speaker 1: early twentieth century, rears its head again in the eighties

1509
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:51,760
Speaker 1: and seems to be rearing its head again. Yeah, just

1510
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: like and so yeah, so that's that chapter sort of

1511
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,200
Speaker 1: sketches out the role that the hunting public has played

1512
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 1: in this eight and uh it's a pretty powerful role, dude. Man,

1513
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 1: I hope that in twenty years you can write another

1514
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 1: dissertation about how this whole anti public land thing got

1515
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:10,839
Speaker 1: just squashed by hunters in the two thousand and sixteen

1516
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: two era. Well, if I'm writing another dissertation in twenty years,

1517
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:17,679
Speaker 1: I have made a series of terrible mistakes. Oh, which

1518
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 1: leaves me the last thing I want to ask you.

1519
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 1: This is my concluding thought. What do you gotta do now?

1520
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 1: Get the thing published in like a major Uh yeah,

1521
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 1: so I mean you gotta do. I'm sort of catching

1522
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 1: my breath and uh, it was, like I said, it

1523
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 1: was kind of a sprint to the finish there, to

1524
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:35,439
Speaker 1: get to get wrapped up, and uh, I'm sort of

1525
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 1: thinking about publication options and and thinking about publishers and

1526
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:45,479
Speaker 1: and uh like academic type publishers. Well, yeah, I think

1527
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 1: there's an I think there's a popular audience for it.

1528
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,800
Speaker 1: So at the moment I submitted, but I know I'm

1529
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 1: not saying that needs to be academic. I mean to

1530
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:58,720
Speaker 1: make it be a dissertation. Once let's say Scruber publishes it,

1531
01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:01,560
Speaker 1: does that still count? Okay? I don't know if he

1532
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:03,080
Speaker 1: had to be like it had to go through the

1533
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:06,519
Speaker 1: academics publishes it. Yeah, but it doesn't have to go

1534
01:30:06,640 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 1: so it doesn't have to go through like the peer

1535
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 1: review process. No that So, so what happens is after

1536
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 1: you write the dissertation, you submit it to a committee

1537
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:17,200
Speaker 1: of examiners and they read it, and they're ultimately the

1538
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 1: arbiters of whether or not this constitute say an original,

1539
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:26,640
Speaker 1: valuable uh contribution to the literature. And so Dan it

1540
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:29,040
Speaker 1: was as my advisor was the head of that committee.

1541
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 1: And then I had five other professors of history and

1542
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 1: a professor of environmental studies who read the thing, and

1543
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:38,320
Speaker 1: we sat down and you defend. It's a defense. So

1544
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 1: they sit down and ask you, why did you do

1545
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 1: it this way? You know, what are you missing here?

1546
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:45,479
Speaker 1: It's as I readgious, I would have done this this way.

1547
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:48,240
Speaker 1: And you you answer and address their concerns as best

1548
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:49,920
Speaker 1: you can, and then you're asked to leave the room,

1549
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:52,880
Speaker 1: and they ultimately come back and say he either passed

1550
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:55,880
Speaker 1: it or you didn't, so well, I passed. That's why

1551
01:30:55,880 --> 01:30:59,519
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here. So now now that you've done that,

1552
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,679
Speaker 1: can take any publication venue you want. Yeah, it's mine.

1553
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 1: Um it. You submit it to an online database, but

1554
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 1: you can put a hold on it for several years

1555
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,640
Speaker 1: as you're working out how exactly you want to publish it.

1556
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: Um and and ideally you publish it with the oppress

1557
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:22,439
Speaker 1: that will give you the widest audience possible. So you

1558
01:31:22,479 --> 01:31:24,040
Speaker 1: don't want to send it to something I don't even

1559
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,560
Speaker 1: want you to kind of think I was suggesting that

1560
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,800
Speaker 1: it wasn't Yeah for that. I just thought that because

1561
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:32,160
Speaker 1: you're involved in this process, that you have to stay

1562
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 1: within that world. No, no, once you once people will

1563
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 1: publish a dissertation as a popular book. Typically typically not

1564
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:48,759
Speaker 1: because most dissertations are written in a like heavily footnote

1565
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 1: of they're not written in a in a literary style

1566
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:54,840
Speaker 1: that people are gonna they're not accessible because they're written

1567
01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:58,799
Speaker 1: for an academic audience to sort of show your chops,

1568
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:00,760
Speaker 1: test your you know, show show your metal to an

1569
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 1: academic audience. But you have to go in and douce

1570
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:04,840
Speaker 1: it up right and take out all like de footnote

1571
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,000
Speaker 1: it and and um citations and present all that in

1572
01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:10,000
Speaker 1: a different way. Yeah. I mean it's it's up to

1573
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:12,000
Speaker 1: the publisher. It's up to the press how they how

1574
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:14,759
Speaker 1: they want to do it. I mean I I wrote

1575
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:16,880
Speaker 1: it in such a way that I mean a lot

1576
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:19,240
Speaker 1: of people they write thousand page dissertations and they have

1577
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 1: to chop it down to like a twoe book. And

1578
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: so I approached it. I tried to save myself some

1579
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:28,680
Speaker 1: work on the back end by by keeping it as

1580
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:32,200
Speaker 1: tight as I could as I wrote it. So so

1581
01:32:32,320 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 1: my concluding thought is, yeah, I don't want to ask

1582
01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:38,160
Speaker 1: you like there's a lot there's a lot of unknowns.

1583
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 1: My conclude thought is I I hope that this that

1584
01:32:42,080 --> 01:32:46,800
Speaker 1: this work sees the that this work becomes available for

1585
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:49,080
Speaker 1: you to look at. Yeah. And then don't mean like

1586
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:52,160
Speaker 1: them going in you know, like I hope it's like published. Yeah, Now,

1587
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:53,920
Speaker 1: that's that's what they're not going on to j store

1588
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:55,960
Speaker 1: or trying to buy, like trying to buy your disstation

1589
01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 1: for twenty bucks. Yeah. No, that's that's the that's the hope,

1590
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 1: that's the goal. Um. And yeah, I finished. I just

1591
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:05,960
Speaker 1: finished about a month or so ago, and I got

1592
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:07,479
Speaker 1: a lot of balls in the air right now? And

1593
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:11,080
Speaker 1: are you gonna go work at a university? UM. At

1594
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 1: the moment, I'm teaching online and and UH for university

1595
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 1: and UM sort of figure out the next step. I mean,

1596
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,000
Speaker 1: I'm interested in teaching. I love teaching. UM, I'm not

1597
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 1: sure if I want to necessarily go through the academic

1598
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:28,400
Speaker 1: ten your track job market. UM, I'm interested in also

1599
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 1: finding employment and conservation and sort of working towards bringing

1600
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:37,400
Speaker 1: groups together resolving some of the issues that I've tracked

1601
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:41,120
Speaker 1: as they emerged in the nineteen seventy nine, nineteen seventies.

1602
01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:43,960
Speaker 1: So literally, this man up and give him a job.

1603
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,400
Speaker 1: How much? How much money do you make? No joke? Yeah,

1604
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,799
Speaker 1: I just came off a salary is a teaching assistant.

1605
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,559
Speaker 1: So anything anything, Listen, you're gonna get this guy cheap.

1606
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 1: Anything sounds good to this guy. Yeah. Any concluding thoughts

1607
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: too many really for the time I have. UM, congratulations

1608
01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:04,559
Speaker 1: first off for getting that done. Thank you. It's quite

1609
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,479
Speaker 1: the project. That's gonna feel good. Yeah, it's quite the

1610
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 1: dragon to sligh as you like to say. Um. Yeah, man,

1611
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:16,520
Speaker 1: I hope that your work opens opens up some discussion.

1612
01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 1: It's important to know for everybody, it's important to know

1613
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:22,559
Speaker 1: your history and where you come from, and not only

1614
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:25,559
Speaker 1: your family history, but now us as hunters. And it's

1615
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:28,599
Speaker 1: some interesting stuff that you've you know, looked at and shared.

1616
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, open. Hopefully it opened the discussion everybody out there.

1617
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,760
Speaker 1: You can label me as a tree hugger, environmentalist that

1618
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:41,320
Speaker 1: likes to shoot stuff. That's my concluding thought, like shoot trees.

1619
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:44,720
Speaker 1: And you didn't say, well a lot. Yeah, this is

1620
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: your first This is the first time you ever said

1621
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:48,160
Speaker 1: I I wanted this conversation. Yeah, yeah, and I thanks

1622
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 1: thanks for the opportunity to let me sit in. It's

1623
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:53,200
Speaker 1: interesting stuff. I learned quite a bit. Do you any

1624
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:56,040
Speaker 1: concluding thoughts? Well, you're probably thinking about that big link

1625
01:34:56,120 --> 01:34:59,720
Speaker 1: had you gotta flay and he's got a cooler too,

1626
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:02,000
Speaker 1: Lane cot on ice that won't fit in the fridge.

1627
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:07,000
Speaker 1: Well like like like Randall, I came from a non

1628
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:10,000
Speaker 1: hunting family, So this is all good dodged, you know,

1629
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 1: it's it's stuff that I didn't thinking about. So it's

1630
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 1: this is this is good to hear. Yeah, congratulations on

1631
01:35:17,360 --> 01:35:19,679
Speaker 1: getting through it. And thinks it sounds like a pretty

1632
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:22,240
Speaker 1: pretty interesting piece. I can't tell if you're allowed to

1633
01:35:22,280 --> 01:35:26,720
Speaker 1: have concluding thoughts or not. What do you think thoughts? Yea,

1634
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:30,760
Speaker 1: what you hear me? Don't know what thought. It's just

1635
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:33,559
Speaker 1: it's just a little tradition of having concluding thoughts. I'm

1636
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:38,160
Speaker 1: just just happy and honored to be here. Good time, dude,

1637
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 1: don't start, don't give me the old and then uh

1638
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:43,960
Speaker 1: then you know, visit your local bookseller in about two years.

1639
01:35:44,040 --> 01:35:45,840
Speaker 1: Once we get this thing on the on the shelf

1640
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:49,720
Speaker 1: and pick it up, and you know, we'll get put

1641
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:51,400
Speaker 1: up on We'll get it put up. When your book

1642
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:52,760
Speaker 1: comes out, we'll get up put up on our our

1643
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,479
Speaker 1: website and you're honest, maybe we'll get a deal where

1644
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,040
Speaker 1: you buy a hundred T shirts to get a copy

1645
01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: for free, about a hundred bucks and get a T

1646
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 1: shirt for free package. All right, um man, I'm just

1647
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,360
Speaker 1: you know, now I feel guilty to the view to

1648
01:36:11,479 --> 01:36:15,320
Speaker 1: the listeners that we've been discussing and like, because usually

1649
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: you know, a book will get published, then you go

1650
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:23,559
Speaker 1: and do you talk about it. You know, yeah, because

1651
01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:28,280
Speaker 1: now I'm like, stay tuned because something to read this

1652
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:33,639
Speaker 1: book available. It's hard way, yeah, it's hard to say.

1653
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:36,720
Speaker 1: Once you start setting out queer, he's depresses, it's you

1654
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:39,559
Speaker 1: never know when what the timeline is, so we'll see,

1655
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:43,479
Speaker 1: but well, we got the basic idea. It was fascinating. Man,

1656
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm glad. I'm glad you're I'm glad you're

1657
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:48,559
Speaker 1: able to come and talk with us. I mean, definitely

1658
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:51,360
Speaker 1: stuff I never thought about, and some stuff I had

1659
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:53,880
Speaker 1: thought about, but I thought about it wrong. Yeah, I

1660
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:56,439
Speaker 1: mean it was a different Uh. You know, when I

1661
01:36:56,520 --> 01:36:59,120
Speaker 1: set out to write the thing, I thought I was

1662
01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:02,800
Speaker 1: gonna tell once story, and I realized that there so

1663
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:04,720
Speaker 1: many more stories out there. And I guess, you know,

1664
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:06,679
Speaker 1: if you're interested in this, if the listeners are interested

1665
01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:11,120
Speaker 1: in this stuff. Outdoor Life just recently digitized their whole

1666
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:18,080
Speaker 1: uh back catalog to like eighteen eighty seven eight something

1667
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:20,680
Speaker 1: like that. You can buy a monthly. Yeah, And so

1668
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:23,160
Speaker 1: this saved me because prior to that, I was carrying

1669
01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: home these huge bound volumes that weighed like twenty pounds apiece,

1670
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:29,120
Speaker 1: and it was like ten issues of of Outdoor Life,

1671
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:31,160
Speaker 1: and I was just hauling them back from the library

1672
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:34,080
Speaker 1: in my backpack. And then you know, in January, I'm

1673
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,360
Speaker 1: I'm cranking through this thing. And you can go online

1674
01:37:36,360 --> 01:37:38,439
Speaker 1: now and get a subscription. It's like it's like five

1675
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 1: bucks a month or something, and they have full page

1676
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 1: scan so you can go you can look at the

1677
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 1: advertisements all that stuff, and then field and stream too

1678
01:37:45,439 --> 01:37:48,360
Speaker 1: is available on Google Books digitally from like nineteen sixty

1679
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:51,519
Speaker 1: to the early two thousands. So if you know, if

1680
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: if you want to go, and I'd be curious to

1681
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,880
Speaker 1: have someone go do a dissertation on the changing nag

1682
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:03,720
Speaker 1: you of chewing tobacco ads in field streamed outdoor lives. Yeah,

1683
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:09,120
Speaker 1: there's there's a rich history there. All right, thanks for listening. Um,

1684
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 1: we'll keep making them keep listening. Take care,