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Speaker 1: I'm very pleased to be joined by Elizabeth Vargas, an

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Speaker 1: American journalist, a news anchor, and more importantly, an inspiration

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Speaker 1: to many, many millions of people out there with her courage, perseverance, tenacity.

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Speaker 1: How did it feel to be back in the anchor chair?

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Speaker 2: It was great. You know, I had not done sort

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Speaker 2: of the daily news grind in several years. The last,

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Speaker 2: you know, fifteen years I was at ABC. I was

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Speaker 2: the anchor of twenty twenty. I replaced Barbara Walters in

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Speaker 2: that job and loved doing documentary work. And then after

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Speaker 2: I left ABC, I did a lot of documentary work.

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Speaker 2: I started a syndicated show called I Crime, which we

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Speaker 2: just launched season two of. And I got the call,

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Speaker 2: you know, do you want to come back and anchor

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Speaker 2: a weeknight show at this brand new cable news network

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Speaker 2: that literally is only a few months old called News Nation?

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Speaker 2: And I thought real hard about it, and honestly, it

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Speaker 2: is such an historic news cycle right now that we're

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Speaker 2: going through that, I thought, you know what, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to dive back in for a few more years and

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Speaker 2: cover the daily news. And it's just been Wow, what

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Speaker 2: a wild ride. You know, we are really living through

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Speaker 2: some historical moments right now, and I'm really excited to

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Speaker 2: be reporting on it.

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Speaker 1: How do you think about this moment in the context

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Speaker 1: of history over a career that we're roughly the same

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Speaker 1: age that the dominant events in it were the collapse

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Speaker 1: of the Berlin Wall, right politically, and then the attacks

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Speaker 1: on nine to eleven. And we have lived long enough

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Speaker 1: to see a moment where a former president of the

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Speaker 1: United States, leading in his party's nomination contest by fifty

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Speaker 1: points on the same day, is saying he's going to

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Speaker 1: shut down Comcast, he's going to take NBC off the air,

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Speaker 1: he's going to lock up journalists, and he wants to

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Speaker 1: execute the chairman of the of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

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Speaker 1: How do you sort through that, not in the context

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Speaker 1: of the event, the details of it, but the meaning

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Speaker 1: of it. And is that a role for a journalist

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Speaker 1: in the first place, to try to extrapolate some meaning

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Speaker 1: or context from those statements.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot in that question. First of all, you're right,

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Speaker 2: we have been incredibly fortunate, I think, to live through

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Speaker 2: some real lex moments, you know, in history, certainly the

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Speaker 2: collapse of the Berlin Wall. I'm an army Brat I

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Speaker 2: was living in Germany. I remember when the wall was

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Speaker 2: still up. We went when I was a small child

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Speaker 2: to Berlin and saw the wall and then it coming

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Speaker 2: down in that changing so radically geopolitically, what was happening

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Speaker 2: in the world. And of course nine to eleven I worked.

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Speaker 2: I was in New York City when that happened. I

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Speaker 2: will never forget that. It's funny. I still I just

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Speaker 2: picked up a book called The Only Plane in the

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Speaker 2: Sky and I started reading it, and it's a compilation

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Speaker 2: of interviews with different people all over in government and

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Speaker 2: just ordinary citizens stuck in the towers. And I still

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Speaker 2: had an intense emotional reaction to it this many years later.

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Speaker 2: So I think you can't help but be profoundly affected

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Speaker 2: and impacted by the statements, you know, in the book

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Speaker 2: and what we've lived through historically. I think that certainly

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Speaker 2: what's happening today. You know, we are extremely polarized as

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Speaker 2: a society, and we have people who are using rhetoric

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Speaker 2: that can be extreme and sometimes irresponsible, and it's important

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Speaker 2: to report on those things and talk about what these

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Speaker 2: people are saying. And yet I'm very cognizant and aware

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Speaker 2: of the fact that we're so polarized, we're not going

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Speaker 2: to reach everybody if we only report from silos. I

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Speaker 2: guess what I'm trying to say is it's important to

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Speaker 2: state what's happening, to put it into context, to explain

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Speaker 2: the importance of it without and this is my mission

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Speaker 2: statement as a journalist. I'm not on television to share

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Speaker 2: my opinion on things. And I think part of what's

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Speaker 2: wrong with cable news right now is it's very siloed,

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Speaker 2: and people go not for information so much is for

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Speaker 2: affirmation of their own political viewpoints. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: really important right now to try and talk about these

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Speaker 2: things and get that information out there, and yet without

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Speaker 2: alienating members of the audience who might have I think

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Speaker 2: you will enlighten people more if you can just set

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Speaker 2: the facts out and let them draw their own conclusions.

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Speaker 2: I might be foolish and giving a lot of faith,

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Speaker 2: but I do have a lot of faith. I think

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Speaker 2: in the American electorate, I think people do listen, and

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Speaker 2: I think they do that stuff does get in. And

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Speaker 2: if I'm not also hectoring them and lecturing them on

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Speaker 2: what they need to think and how they need to think,

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Speaker 2: that they might I might have a better chance of

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Speaker 2: reaching more people from different and disparate points of view.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's naive, but it's certainly what I'm trying to do.

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Speaker 1: I spent I spent ten years and by.

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Speaker 2: The way, I just want to say, you referenced you

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Speaker 2: know what I've been through. I'm a person in recovery

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Speaker 2: and long term recovery. Now. I've been very open about it.

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Speaker 2: I've written a book about it, I have a podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm on the board of directors of the Partnership and

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Speaker 2: Addiction Mental Health and Substance abuse disorder is something that

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Speaker 2: crosses all party lines. It's rural, it's urban, red state,

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Speaker 2: blue state. You know, it doesn't matter what political party

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Speaker 2: you are, you can still you are still suffering from this.

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Speaker 2: So there are many many, really big important issues in

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Speaker 2: this country that cross political lines.

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Speaker 1: Howbout it? Because you said that, do you do you

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Speaker 1: have an appreciation politically in the country which seems lost

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Speaker 1: on a lot of the politicians and commentators that you

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Speaker 1: had an excess of one million Americans who have been

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Speaker 1: killed by opiates and that number, that number will climb.

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Speaker 1: Those opioates that they became addicted to. Uh, we were

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Speaker 1: told they were told we're safe by the FDA. Within

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Speaker 1: a few years, the government comes back and says, not

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Speaker 1: only is this vaccine safe, and I took the vaccine

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Speaker 1: and I've lea vaccines are safe. But I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: the politics of it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, we had our government said oxy is safe, and

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Speaker 2: our government let Purdue Pharma falsely and aggressively market a

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Speaker 2: drug that they knew was addictive and was unsafe. So

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Speaker 2: now when our government says the vaccines are safe, do

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Speaker 2: you have any wonder that people say, I don't believe you.

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Speaker 2: Of course, not right.

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Speaker 1: And the media role in this was that it was invisible.

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Speaker 1: Nobody talked about this in America as the matter of

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Speaker 1: policy at a national level until twoenty and sixteen. It's

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Speaker 1: when the issue appeared on the national stage and the

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Speaker 1: context of a presidential campaign. And you have a group

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Speaker 1: of people who then in the coverage of the vaccine

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Speaker 1: and the people that refused to get it the frame

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Speaker 1: of that coverage, I think that so much of the

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Speaker 1: country heard is you people are ignorant, You people are stupid,

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Speaker 1: and that condescension has a profound impact on the In

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Speaker 1: my view, the collapse of trust between the American people

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Speaker 1: and the institutions the news media that inform them, because

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Speaker 1: millions of Americans feel judged by those institutions.

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Speaker 2: I think anytime you lead with your stupid you don't

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Speaker 2: know what you're talking about, you've lost your audience. And that, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: is what the vaccine debate devolved into. I too am vaccinated.

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Speaker 2: I got vaccinated, I got my kids vaccinated. But I

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Speaker 2: understand very clearly why so many people had such distrust

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Speaker 2: about the vaccines. And we now know there was a

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Speaker 2: lot that we did wrong during the pandemic. We know

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Speaker 2: that the lockdowns of schools had a profound negative impact

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Speaker 2: on our children and their learning and in their emotional

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Speaker 2: stability and well being. We are paying the price of

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Speaker 2: that right now. And I think if we can't look

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Speaker 2: back with clear eyes and admit what we did wrong

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Speaker 2: and assess what we could do better next time, and

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Speaker 2: be honest about it without being defensive and judgmental, we

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Speaker 2: are not going to learn. I mean, it is okay

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Speaker 2: to make mistakes, Steve, Everybody. We're human beings. Our government

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Speaker 2: is made up of human beings who make mistakes sometimes

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Speaker 2: and get things right sometimes. Everybody makes mistakes. There's nothing

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Speaker 2: wrong with making a mistake. There is something wrong with

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Speaker 2: refusing to admit that you did something wrong, that you

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Speaker 2: got it wrong somehow, And I think we do a

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Speaker 2: great disservice not to acknowledge there were some parts of

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Speaker 2: the vaccine response that worked and some parts of the

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Speaker 2: vaccine response that did not work, and not to acknowledge

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Speaker 2: there is a very real reason why some people don't

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Speaker 2: trust what the government is telling them. It is based

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Speaker 2: on on actual reality. We have an FDA almost fifty

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Speaker 2: percent of the FDA budget comes from big pharma. I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying I understand why that happens. Why should the

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Speaker 2: American taxpayer fund the testing of a brand new drug

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Speaker 2: by some company that's going to make a boatload of

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Speaker 2: cash off of that once it gets approved and if

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Speaker 2: it's safe, it's out there. I get it. Let's have

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Speaker 2: a big pharma fund that. But the result is big

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Speaker 2: pharma funds nearly half of the FDA. And people look

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Speaker 2: at that and they wonder, well, are you in the

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Speaker 2: pocket of big pharma. You look at what happened with

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Speaker 2: Purdue Pharma. You look at the fact that the FDA

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Speaker 2: official in charge of approving oxycodone later on went to

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Speaker 2: go work for Purdue Pharma. It's a revolving door. And

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Speaker 2: it's not just big Pharma. You know this. You've been

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Speaker 2: in politics for a very long time. We have a

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Speaker 2: big revolving door of people who go in and out

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Speaker 2: of government and then in and out of special interests,

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Speaker 2: and it messes with the credibility. And the American people

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Speaker 2: very legitimately have a lot of when they say, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute, you're telling you that's good for me, how

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Speaker 2: do I know? How do I know that's true? And

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Speaker 2: I think that's kind of I think those kinds of

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Speaker 2: questions are good. Our job as journalists is to investigate

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Speaker 2: that and to take the questions and this skepticism, even

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Speaker 2: cynicism seriously and delve into the answers and report all

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Speaker 2: the facts. But I think to just say to somebody,

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Speaker 2: to a huge segment of the population, you're crazy, you

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Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about, you're uninformed, you're you're

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Speaker 2: not very smart, you're you know, Okay, there it is,

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Speaker 2: and end of discussion. You've lost the audience, you've lost

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Speaker 2: the ability to debate the point, you've lost the ability

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Speaker 2: to engage in what is you know, a constructive exchange

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Speaker 2: of ideas because it's always good. You know, if you're

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Speaker 2: only talking all the time to people who agree with you,

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Speaker 2: you're never going to learn anything. You're never going to

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Speaker 2: appreciate or understand the political differences that currently exist in

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Speaker 2: this country and are deepening and dividing.

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Speaker 1: I had an experience. I drove with my son back

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Speaker 1: to school in New Hampshire across the country from Santa

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Speaker 1: Barbara through California, Oregon, Washington up through British Columbia, forty

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Speaker 1: two hundred mile trip, and one of my observations from

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Speaker 1: it was the degree to which the news such as

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Speaker 1: it is, and we talk about it ubiquitously monolithically, which

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Speaker 1: is which isn't appropriate, right, because again is the news.

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Speaker 1: Newsmax is the news, right, Fox is the news, and

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Speaker 1: you're in a You're in a very different business, but

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Speaker 1: the news such as it is. On that drive, my

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Speaker 1: overwhelming impression was how little the lives of the people

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Speaker 1: I was driving by, no idea what their politics were,

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Speaker 1: anything about their lives, but how detached those lives were

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Speaker 1: are from anything that's talked about on television news.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm, it's true. And I don't you know, I uh,

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Speaker 2: I went to college in Missouri, New Ver'si, Missouri, which

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Speaker 2: is fantastic school journalism. You know. Uh. My first job

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Speaker 2: was in Reno, Nevada. Second job was in Phoenix, Arizona.

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Speaker 2: The third job was in Chicago, Illinois. There are whole

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Speaker 2: parts of the middle of this country that I think

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Speaker 2: are largely ignored. You know. We saw that with East Palestine.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's something that the network that I work for,

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Speaker 2: now News Nation, has been We jumped on that. We

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Speaker 2: knew people would leave, the other networks would leave, and

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Speaker 2: they did, and we stayed and have continued to stay

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Speaker 2: and break news there. You know, every week or so

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Speaker 2: I have Rich mcew on my show doing some sort

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Speaker 2: of investigative piece. But we're there in that town showing

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Speaker 2: those people that they count and that they met here,

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Speaker 2: and that when everybody else leaves, we're still there. But

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Speaker 2: you know what, we're the only ones there we're seeing.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting in the coverage of this UAW

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Speaker 2: strike because this is a whole section of America that

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Speaker 2: people tend not to think about. The folks who get

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Speaker 2: up every day and go to a plant and work

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Speaker 2: ten hours on their feet making the cars that we

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Speaker 2: just buy and never think about all that work that

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Speaker 2: went into it, and never fully appreciate that you know,

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Speaker 2: they're making They gave up so much in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight to help save the big car companies, and

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Speaker 2: now the car companies are making record profits and they

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Speaker 2: want a piece of the pot. Why is Mary Bara

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Speaker 2: earning thirty million dollars a year and these guys are

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Speaker 2: wondering if they can't afford to buy the cars they make?

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Speaker 2: Is that fair? No, it's not, it's not. And I

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Speaker 2: just think that getting into the heartland of this country,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's where my life was spent until I

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Speaker 2: moved to New York City where the networks are based.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole culture out there and a whole world

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Speaker 2: out there. I don't know if you ever saw the

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Speaker 2: documentary American Factory, I think it was called. It was

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Speaker 2: a wonderful documentary about an American factory bought by a

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Speaker 2: Chinese company in the clash of cultures between Americans and

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Speaker 2: the Chinese. But it was also a real window of

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Speaker 2: what it was like to be an American citizen, a

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Speaker 2: high school graduate working a blue collar job, just wanting

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Speaker 2: to work hard and get fair pay, and what their

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Speaker 2: lives were like. And I just think it's really I

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Speaker 2: think people tend to forget that and they don't appreciate that,

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Speaker 2: and I think we'd be better served if we remembered

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Speaker 2: that that it's we can't have everybody living on the

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Speaker 2: coasts and going to college. We need everybody, you know,

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Speaker 2: to make everything work here. Somebody's got to make the cars.

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Speaker 2: Somebody's got to drive the trucks. Somebody's got to deliver

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Speaker 2: the food. Somebody's got to pick the food. Somebody's got

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Speaker 2: to grow the food. Somebody's got to milk the cows.

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Speaker 2: You know, all those things have to happen for this

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Speaker 2: great country to continue to just exist day in and

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Speaker 2: day out, so that we have something to buy at

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Speaker 2: the grocery store and we have something to drive to

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Speaker 2: get to the grocery store. And I think the more

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Speaker 2: we appreciate the people who are doing that hard work

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Speaker 2: that we don't ever think about day in and day out,

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Speaker 2: often in the middle of the country, the better we'll be.

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Speaker 1: There's an incredible political speech on this subject, almost spot

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Speaker 1: on in terms of hitting the nail on the head

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Speaker 1: that Teddy Roosevelt gave and I know, for in the

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Speaker 1: railroad town of Dunsmere, California, which is in the shadow

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Speaker 1: of Mount Shasta, And it is exactly what you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the society at large, and that everybody who works

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Speaker 1: should be treated with dignity, with respect and has a

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Speaker 1: to play and the functioning of the society that's no greater,

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Speaker 1: no less than anybody else's vital, vital role. And it's

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Speaker 1: exactly a remarkable concept that we've lost on. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you this. So I spent ten years at

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Speaker 1: NBC News as a as an analyst, and I got

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Speaker 1: to know Tom Brokaw there. It's one of the loveliest

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Speaker 1: people in my life, just one of the greatest guys.

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Speaker 1: And Tom Brokaw, as I got to know him, was

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Speaker 1: astounded by the fact the Schmid family did not watch

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Speaker 1: Tom Brokaw. We were we were an ABC household in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. We watched Bill bu Tel Eyewitness News. You

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Speaker 1: had Bernard Shaw CNN, Yeah, yeah, rather Brokaw in Peter

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Speaker 1: Jennings and so Peter Jennings was the anchorman. Peter Jennings

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Speaker 1: told you what was happening in the world. And before

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Speaker 1: Peter Jennings trace memory of Frank Reynolds, who I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you knew as well. If those guys were still here

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Speaker 1: and they came back today and you said, Peter, here's

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Speaker 1: what's going on, what would he say? State of journalism?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Politics?

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Speaker 2: First of all, I had the great fortune of working

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Speaker 2: with both Tom and Peter. Tom Brokaw was at NBC

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Speaker 2: News when I came. I was thinking I was only

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Speaker 2: twenty nine years old from Chicago, and was so kind

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Speaker 2: and so generous. I just have enormous respect for him.

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Speaker 2: And then I worked with Peter at World News Tonight,

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Speaker 2: and eventually, when Peter died of lung cancer, I was

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Speaker 2: named anchoro World News Tonight with Bob Woodruff. Then there's

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Speaker 2: a whole story of there. But I don't know what

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Speaker 2: they would make of the state of journalism or the

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Speaker 2: state of politics today because it's changed radically both. Although

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Speaker 2: you know, I you know, listen, I was interviewing somebody,

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Speaker 2: a historian on my show the other night, and I

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Speaker 2: was talking about how divided we are. There was a

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Speaker 2: new poll out that just showed record levels of not

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Speaker 2: just division, but also among the electorate polled disgust for

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Speaker 2: both parties, not one or the other, but for both

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Speaker 2: like people, Americans are overwhelmingly right now disgusted by the

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Speaker 2: state of politics. And you know, I was asking, oh,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, it's never been this bad, and they said, yes,

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Speaker 2: it has, Yeah, it has. It was. It was America

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Speaker 2: that was very divided during Vietnam. We were very divided.

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Speaker 2: Obviously in the Civil War, we nearly tore our country apart.

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Speaker 2: You know. They had as historians sort of the long

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Speaker 2: view that we will get through this, you know, but

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Speaker 2: while you're in it, it feels pretty horrible, you know,

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Speaker 2: it just feels existential. I don't know what. I know

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Speaker 2: that both Peter and Tom were journalists of the highest caliber.

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Speaker 2: They did not share their opinions. They believed deeply and

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Speaker 2: deeply reporting the facts and had enormous experience. I mean

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Speaker 2: Peter first, his first try it being anchor at the

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Speaker 2: of World News Tonight was a failure, and he went

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Speaker 2: back to the Middle East and was the bureau chief

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Speaker 2: and correspondent you know, you know, in Beirut and proved

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Speaker 2: his chops and got more experience on it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: at that point that was what really mattered you. No

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Speaker 2: anchor was an anchor without serving many, many years in

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Speaker 2: the field reporting and that's you know, the key thing.

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Speaker 2: You can't really know what you're talking about if you

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Speaker 2: haven't been there, if you haven't seen first tand you

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Speaker 2: know what's happening, and that matters around the world in

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Speaker 2: war zones and in places you know, inflection places where

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Speaker 2: there are inflection points, and the Middle East is certainly

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Speaker 2: one of those. Europe where I grew up is another,

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Speaker 2: obviously now increasingly China. But also as we were just

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Speaker 2: talking about, in this country, covering this country, don't just

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Speaker 2: cover it from New York City or Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: You've got to go there and see for yourself what

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Speaker 2: that's like.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you talk about the frame of

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Speaker 1: history with the historian, and he's right. There has never

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Speaker 1: been a genteel time in American history. It's always been

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Speaker 1: a high wire act. The country on the second day

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Speaker 1: at the Battle of Gettysburg came literally within sixty seconds

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Speaker 1: of ending with the confedsveter Its almost getting to the

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Speaker 1: high ground that would have put them between the Union

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Speaker 1: Army and Washington, DC. The most valorous act in the

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Speaker 1: history of the US military by combat casualties was the

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Speaker 1: charge of two hundred and seventy five men by the

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Speaker 1: first Minnesota on the command of William Scott Hancock, a

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Speaker 1: suicide charge eighty two percent casualties against three thousand, charging

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Speaker 1: Alabama's who were able to exploit a hole in the

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Speaker 1: line caused by a New York congressman named Dan Sickles,

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Speaker 1: who very famously got away with shooting his wife's lover

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Speaker 1: in broad daylight in La Fayette Square, proving a century

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Speaker 1: and a half before Trump said it that you could

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Speaker 1: actually get away with that in New York politics, shooting

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Speaker 1: someone in broad daylight. But that act, that charge saved,

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Speaker 1: saved the Union. What some people would say, even during

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Speaker 1: the Vavietnam War, times of immense cultural division, is that

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Speaker 1: the country's political institutions did not stop functioning in the

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Speaker 1: way that they have ceased to function in this moment.

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Speaker 1: When I talk to audiences, the thing that I tried

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Speaker 1: to stress to them in a what we share in

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Speaker 1: common is this entire society is built around a radical concept,

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Speaker 1: which is that we pick our leaders. And if you

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Speaker 1: immolate the election process, if it's only a fair election,

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Speaker 1: if you win. And I say that as someone who

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Speaker 1: placed the concession phone call for John McCain to to

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama, and it was an honor. It was an

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Speaker 1: honor to do that. The society doesn't go on, it collapses.

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Speaker 1: There's no workaround. We can have an American society with

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Speaker 1: a ninety five percent tax rate, We can have an

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Speaker 1: American society with a five percent tax rate. We can

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Speaker 1: have an American society with social security, without social security,

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Speaker 1: without a safety net, with a safety net, but not

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Speaker 1: without elections. And this seems to me it's the elemental

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Speaker 1: story of our time. And what I wanted to ask

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Speaker 1: you is, how do you perceive this moment? Do you

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Speaker 1: view this like I do, which is we're living in

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Speaker 1: the middle of now a seven year story that's unfolding

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Speaker 1: still we don't know where it's going. But that story

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Speaker 1: and its accumulation and it's total is the story of

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Speaker 1: the rise of one of the greatest threat in the

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Speaker 1: country's history. That that really seeks out a fundamental way

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Speaker 1: it's gotten there to strip away the essence of the

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Speaker 1: American revolution for power.

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Speaker 2: Listen, well, I I am going to steer clear of

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Speaker 2: commenting specifically on former President Donald Trump being the greatest

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Speaker 2: threat as you called him to. Donald Trump lost the election.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump tried very hard to overturn that election. I

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Speaker 2: think as many people have testified, people members of his

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Speaker 2: own team and it and it helped people like the

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Speaker 2: Georgia Secretary of State. It held our democracy held together.

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Speaker 2: I think that democracy only works if you respect the

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Speaker 2: results of a free and fair election. And yes, it

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Speaker 2: is absolutely not only disruptive but destructive to question elections

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Speaker 2: when there is no evidence of substantial fraud that would

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Speaker 2: have changed that election. And I think people who continue

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Speaker 2: to say it was stolen despite overwhelming evidence that it

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Speaker 2: was not, can help contribute to certainly an erosion of

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Speaker 2: trust in a process that we all need to have

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Speaker 2: faith in. Everybody needs to trust that when I go

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Speaker 2: cast my vote, somebody count it, and that all these

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Speaker 2: votes will be counted and that they will matter in

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Speaker 2: the end, and that we will all get to choose

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Speaker 2: the next president, the next Senator, the next Congressman, the

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Speaker 2: next mayor the next council member accurately and fairly. So yes,

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Speaker 2: I think it's incredibly dangerous to continue to threaten democracy

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Speaker 2: that way and to question the results of an election.

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Speaker 1: But I.

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Speaker 2: Have I think a lot of people, under an enormous

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Speaker 2: amount of stress and pressure, did the right thing in

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty election, and I hope that that will

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Speaker 2: happen again in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: There's a phrase I tell this to my kids. You know,

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Speaker 1: you'll hear a cliche like, don't shoot the messenger, And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, the reason that's a raise is because someone

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Speaker 1: someday way back shot the messenger right, probably probably more

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Speaker 1: than probably more than one right. And So you talked

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Speaker 1: about being on air on September eleventh, in these dates.

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Speaker 2: And.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're pro it's a it's a skill to

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Speaker 1: sit there. To do that on television, it's a lot harder.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about being an analyst. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about the job that you did being an anchor, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's a a very very small percentage of the

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Speaker 1: human population that can that can do that effectively and

433
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: keep your poise right in a in a moment of

434
00:28:52,240 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: of unbelievable tragedy. So on Election Night twenty twenty, we

435
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: now know from Fox News you have the anchor of

436
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: Fox News. And I never conceived of this as a

437
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: possibility when you look at the totality of everything that

438
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: that would happened, and I don't feel like this has

439
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: been wingered on enough Brett Bear when he learned the

440
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: news and the news right networks go spend a lot

441
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: of money right to report the news on an election night, Right,

442
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: it's a big global news. He's gonna be the president

443
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: of the United States. It's gonna be Joe Biden. You

444
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: have the anchor of the network sitting there in twenty

445
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: twenty saying, audience isn't gonna like this. We're gonna We're

446
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: gonna have to We're gonna have to let them down

447
00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: softly as we tell them the news. How do you

448
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: process that? Because that, to me is almost beyond comprehension.

449
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: Did that happen?

450
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: I think a lot of journalists felt the same way. Listen.

451
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly what happened. These are reports, but

452
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: certainly I think the most damning evidence of all of

453
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: this emerged in the dominion lawsuit. You know, text messages

454
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: and emails that were released as part of discovery, and

455
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: it showed that Fox knew. I mean, I can't imagine

456
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: this as a newsplash to anybody who watches Fox News,

457
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: but that they were you know, listen, it showed a

458
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: lot of things. Those text messages and emails and a

459
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: lot of them contradictory, but they were very concerned about

460
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: telling the audience what it wanted to hear, and that

461
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: is backwards. As journalists, we should be telling the facts

462
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: as we know them and make clear this is this

463
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: is how we've come to you know, this is what

464
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: we have learned, this is what we've talked to, We've

465
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: investigated this, and this is what we've learned. Or in

466
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: the case of election night, these are the results that

467
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: we are being told. I you know, clearly, even then,

468
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: there was a reluctance to tell their audience news they

469
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: knew their audience would not like. And remember on election

470
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: night at that point, it's projections. You know, we haven't

471
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: in fact counted every vote in Arizona, but we know

472
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: from vast experience, and their political dust got it right.

473
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: They were the first to call Arizona and they were

474
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: out there on that limb, that very thin limb, what

475
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 2: was it, several days before other networks joined them. It

476
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: was It was a lonely place to be and a

477
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: very provocative and as you can read from the Dominion

478
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: Discovery material, there was enormous pressure within Fox and from

479
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: Fox journalists and Fox news anchors. You know that we

480
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: should go back, we should uncall this for Arizona, we

481
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: should wait and see. And what on earth is that?

482
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: What are they?

483
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: What are they doing calling this verb Joe Biden so early?

484
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: But you know, their political desk stuck with it again again.

485
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: Many members, I think a couple members of that desk

486
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: were later fired forgetting the call right.

487
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to I want to ask you one

488
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: more politics question about the frame around which news generally

489
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: is reported. And you can push back on me if

490
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: you think that this is a unfair kind of framing

491
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: of this large Generally speaking, I think the American people

492
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: are told, relentlessly, almost repeated as a dogma, that the

493
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: country is a evenly divided and that the country is

494
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: hopelessly divided right on the on the edge of this

495
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: of this civil war. So all of the polling that

496
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: you talked about, right, the repugnance to discussed, all of

497
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: that stuff is there, and it's real. But I'm going

498
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: to give you two policy issues and one political issue

499
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: that I think really demonstrate the country is not hopelessly

500
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: divided and not evenly divided. Two issues are on immigration

501
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: and on guns, where you have overwhelming majorities eighty five

502
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: percent on both that that basically agree on a framework

503
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: common sensically of how to deal with these issues. Now

504
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: there's no chance for these issues to advance in our

505
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: broken political process. I think that produces a lot of

506
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: apathy that you know, turns people away from the system

507
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: because it does doesn't mean anything. Now, the political issue

508
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: right that the country agrees on is he is seventy

509
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: five percent of the country and seventy five percent a lot, right,

510
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: seventy five percent a lot. In a meeting of anything

511
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: over one hundred people, you got three quarters saying a

512
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: percent seventy. It's tough for me to win a seventy

513
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: five percent vote as a political consultant and a family

514
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: vote right. Rarely, it rarely happens. You have seventy five

515
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: percent of the country saying we do not want the

516
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: Trump Biden rematch. Every poll now you.

517
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: Have, I think it might be higher than seventy five percent.

518
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: But go on.

519
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: You have two political parties that you're told never agree

520
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: on anything. They agree on something. What they agree on

521
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: is you're going to get what you get, and you're

522
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: gonna like the choice. Now, the Biden campaign right instructed

523
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: on and I remember on the Bush campaign, the McCain campaign,

524
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: you'd come to the networks and you would you would

525
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: lay out your rationale and reporters sit and look at you,

526
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: and you you know, if you were the Bush campaign,

527
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: you're sitting there. ABC News journalists might say, I think

528
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: you guys have a problem given that the war was

529
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 1: started on this premise of weapons of mass destruction, there

530
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: are none what say you about your strategy? So that

531
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: sense Biden's going in the and the campaign is clearly

532
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: this is the best economy ever and the age is

533
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: not an issue. This in fact the age, and I

534
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: think there's a fair rendering of the campaign he's the

535
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: wisest guy in the land, which may or may not be,

536
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: but nobody in the country believes this. So what you

537
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: have is you have two intractable institutions giving a choice

538
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: that seventy five percent don't want. You have issues that

539
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: the polling says the American people see it one way

540
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: and the Washington politicians see it in another way. When

541
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: you sit and you're trying to inform the public about

542
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: a race that seems at a conceptual level warped by

543
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: the reporting that's coming from Washington, which I think is

544
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: increasingly out of touch because the news, such as it

545
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: is from Washington is distorted by the fact that it's

546
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: really a position that shared between two parties in about

547
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 1: twenty five percent of the country. That leaves everybody else out.

548
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: How do you possibly start to put a frame that

549
00:36:53,040 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 1: contextualizes and explains that journalistically because the frame of the

550
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: choice that is that comes from Washington, that comes from

551
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: the ESSLA Corridor is not empirically an accurate reflection of

552
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: reality as it can be assessed in this moment.

553
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: I think that listen, we had a little bit of

554
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 2: this issue around Biden and age came up when we

555
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: were talking about and debating on the show Gosh a

556
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: week or two ago, right after Senate Minority Leader Mitch

557
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: McConnell had his second freezing episode in front of reporters,

558
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 2: and you know, a couple of weeks after Senator Diane

559
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: Feinstein could did not realize that she was supposed to

560
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: vote and started to give a speech and was clearly confused,

561
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: and there was this whole you know, debate of you know,

562
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: and I think what Nikki Haley called it, the most

563
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: privileged you know nursing home in America the United States Senate.

564
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: Not a bad line, by the way, but the point being,

565
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: we're talking about term you know, term limits, age limits,

566
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: you know, mental acuity tests. And somebody said when I suggested, well,

567
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: what about term limits, and they said, you know, we

568
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: have we already have term limits. They're called elections. And

569
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: but that's not exactly true. And you know this better

570
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: than most people, that candidates that parties decide to support.

571
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 2: A friend of mine is running for concourse in Arizona,

572
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: and she's having to jump through all sorts of hoops

573
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 2: because you know, the Democrats will who will we support

574
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: in the primary to then run in the general election.

575
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 2: It isn't a fair You don't get to just jump

576
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: in and run against Mitch McConnell or Dianne Feinstein. And

577
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: the same thing is true with the presidential election and

578
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: President Biden, as the incumbent, has you know, a huge

579
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: amount of momentum movement and support behind him to run

580
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: for a second term by his own party, the Democratic

581
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: Party establishment, who for whatever reason thus far have not

582
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: read the room or read the polls that show that

583
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: even Americans who think that Trump's age is not a

584
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: factor still believe that Biden's age is a factor. And

585
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: you can't just say it's because they're all Trump supporters.

586
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: That's not true. Statistically. People are saying this because they

587
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: are watching Joe Biden, and they are watching the way

588
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: he walks and the way he talks, and they're seeing

589
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: this in their own families. I see it in my

590
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: own family. I have two parents who are in their eighties,

591
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 2: and you understand and recognize old age and the toll

592
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 2: it takes if you're lucky to live that long. That's

593
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: what happens. And eventually, and not everybody at the same pace.

594
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: Point being that we're now past the point everybody believes

595
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: when the Democratic Party could have somebody could have pressured

596
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: Joe Biden to say to stick to his He did

597
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: at one point say I'll be a one term president.

598
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: I believe I could be wrong, but we're now at

599
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: a point where we're past that point. And the Republicans

600
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: are in a primary system where the primary voters are

601
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 2: no longer emblematic or representative of general election Republican voters

602
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: or independent or moderate voters, much less Democratic voters. So

603
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: the primary system already rewards the most extremes, and then

604
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: you see in the general everybody trying to come back

605
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: toward the center, and well, I didn't really mean it

606
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: when I said that, and this is let me attenuate

607
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: and modify that position so it's not so far right

608
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: or not so far left to be more you know,

609
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: you know, appealing to the people in the middle, which

610
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 2: is where you need to be in order to with

611
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: a general election. So, yeah, we're stuck now, and you're

612
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: absolutely right. The vast majority of Americans poll show don't

613
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: want to see Trump vie Biden on the ticket. They

614
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: don't and the vast majority of Americans think Biden is

615
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: too old, and a majority of Americans are are repelled

616
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: by Trump or half Americans. So we'll see what's going

617
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: to happen. But you know, despite the fact that you know,

618
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: you're right, seventy five eighty percent of Americans don't want

619
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: to see that choice on their on their ballot in

620
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. That's what they're going to see at

621
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: this point unless something happens, Unless something happens to Biden,

622
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: then I don't know what's going to happen. It'll be

623
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: a free for all, and I don't know what might

624
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: happen in the Republican you know, you were, you spent

625
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: your career, you know Republican politics, and you know that

626
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: so well. You know, can you.

627
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: Think of it?

628
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: Can you think of anything that is going to derail

629
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: Trump's momentum? Thus far he is only as he's been indicted,

630
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: his lead has only expanded. He skipped the debate, his

631
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: lead expanded. You know, I don't know what might happen

632
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: to change things up.

633
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: I think what has to happen is And.

634
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 2: By the way, this is while polls show that right

635
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: now Trump and Biden are statistically tied in a general election,

636
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: recent poll shows Nicky Haley would beat Joe Biden. So

637
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 2: but Nicky Haley's down in single digits and Trump is

638
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: up at fifty percent.

639
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: I suspect you will see Nicki Haley move in New Hampshire.

640
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: She's going to be the person with momentum in the fall.

641
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: But in order for Trump to go down, he has

642
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: to lose Iowa and New Hampshire. And I think really

643
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: the only candidate that can get him in Iowa is

644
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: Tim Scott, and there's really no evidence to suggest that

645
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: it's it's coming together for him. New Hampshire is a

646
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: little bit is a little bit different, and I think

647
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: I was just in the state. My parents live in

648
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: the state, sister lives in the state, and a lot

649
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: of political experience there. I will say this, having driven

650
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: down from Montreal. Kind of in the northern part of

651
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. The lower part of the state is separated

652
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: by Franconian notch, right, so you have above the notch

653
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: below the notch. Above the notch is kind of rural

654
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: that would have been general Baldock territory in the last

655
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: Senate election. But above the notch there's an awful lot

656
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: of Bobby Kennedy science and you wouldn't expect to you

657
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't with him to see them there. And so you know,

658
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: one of the features I think about that I think

659
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: is one of the oddest aspects of this campaign is

660
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: that the coverage of it is incessantly binary, meaning that

661
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: Trump Biden. Now either the No Labels people have the

662
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: money or they don't to get on the ballot, or

663
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: they don't. We're gonna we're gonna find out soon if

664
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: that's a real thing. But Democratic Party doesn't have a

665
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: vote on whether No Labels is going to field the campaign.

666
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: They don't get a vote on Bobby Kennedy running as

667
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: a libertarian, so.

668
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: I think he might by the way, I don't know.

669
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: I'm just that we have we have five candidates on

670
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 1: a on a ballot of some prominence from Cornell West

671
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: on down. And political system that is unresponsive in a

672
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: country where there's one hundred and thirty two different choices

673
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: of ketchup is going to demand different choices at the

674
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. And so I think

675
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 1: that that's one of the things we're watching is politics.

676
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: You know, is the glass going to break after the

677
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: tension it's been under over the last seven years. I

678
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of evidence to what happens.

679
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 2: Do you think if we do have a ballot that

680
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 2: it doesn't just have Trump and Biden on it, as

681
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: they're the Democratic Republican nominees, but a RFK Junior and

682
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: a Cornell West and you know who knows else. Maybe

683
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 2: Joe Mansion changes as mine and jumps in. I can't.

684
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: I don't think you will, but I don't know.

685
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: The first thing it would do is if you had

686
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: more credible candidates on it, it expands the number of

687
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: swing states right from like our fifteen sixteen to twenty five,

688
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: thirty thirty five. You know, real, real, legitimate three way

689
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 1: race puts the race into play in about forty two states,

690
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: which we haven't seen in a very very long time.

691
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: But just as a practical matter, right, you know, if

692
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 1: you listen to official Washington Democrats talk about this, what

693
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: I hear them say is basically, we can't win a

694
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: three way race. And here's the deal. This is not

695
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: a track event. That's not what politics is. Right, It's

696
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: not fair, it's not an even race. One side runs uphill,

697
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: one runs down. One's got ropes, one doesn't once got water,

698
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: one doesn't. Right, it sucks, right, I was when I

699
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: ran John McCain's campaigns outspent by three hundred and fifty

700
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: million dollars. Yeah, in a three way race, if you're

701
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: Joe Biden and his team, you have to figure out

702
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: how to win that race. And if you can't win

703
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 1: that race and you go into it saying we can't

704
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: conceivably win a three way race, then the party is

705
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: an institution, really has to examine that and say, well,

706
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: this is going to be what it's going to be,

707
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: and we ought to have someone on the ballot who

708
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: at least gives us a deminimous chance to be able

709
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: to be able to win. But you can't forfeit a

710
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: presidential campaign in August of twenty twenty three on the

711
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: hypothetical probabilities that Cornell West would be there. That And

712
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: there's a mythology, right, and I don't accept it. Right.

713
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton did not lose the election because Jill Stein

714
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: was on the ballot. It's a lot of reasons she

715
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: lost the election that wasn't particularly an acute And I

716
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: say this to someone who admires her. So I think

717
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: that there's always a lot of revisionism after an election.

718
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: We tend to look at elections and say, well, the

719
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: result was caused by the last major event of it,

720
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: as opposed to the first major occurrence in it, And

721
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: so what's happened, why it happened, what's happening now, what

722
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: it means. I think there's a lot of subjectivity on

723
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: this stuff, you know, depending depending on how you see

724
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: the how you see the world. Other than to say,

725
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: I think we're in a very volatile moment, and volatility

726
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: will drive a lot of disruption in this cycle, is

727
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: what I think.

728
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: And if I'm curious, if you do think there's any

729
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 2: chance that Biden will step down.

730
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. I think any day there's a there's

731
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: a story, there's a story in Axios and I and

732
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: I have I have a lot of respect, a lot

733
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: of admiration for President Biden, but is a practical matter.

734
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: This is true if you read the Axios story today,

735
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: which is about the lengths of the advanced team Right

736
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: has taken to prevent him from falling, tripping, any of

737
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: the issues that come from age. As someone who's run

738
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: in an organization, I think it's easy to write, if

739
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: you're working for Politico or Axios right, that there's some

740
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: magical twenty sonthter staffer out there who's got the ability

741
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: to keep the president from tripping. Now, I don't have

742
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: the ability to keep my seventy eight year old dad

743
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: from tripping, right or my mom, and they don't with

744
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: the president. So he's wearing sneakers, not dress shoes. He's

745
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: up the short stairs, not the long one. And you

746
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: look at an event he was at last week. It

747
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: was not generally reported, though it was reported in the

748
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: Pool report right that he spoke to one hundred and

749
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: twenty three of the biggest donors in the Democratic Party

750
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: talked about his origin story for his race, and then

751
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: he repeated it seconds later, almost forbade him word for word. Right,

752
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: you can look at the instances when he got up

753
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: on Nicole Wallace's show.

754
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: And walked out the set.

755
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: And that's tough to do because if you're on a

756
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: live TV set, you know it's a live you know

757
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: it's a you know it's a live TV set. So

758
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: so at any day disconnect. If if the president froze

759
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: like Mitch McConnell did, it's over.

760
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: It's over.

761
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: That's what I mean by it fall down the steps

762
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: of the plane, it's over.

763
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 2: So what is the Democratic Party? What are they all

764
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: doing in case that happens? Because it listen, Mitch McConnell

765
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: found well, that's why he's having, according to his doctor,

766
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 2: these weird freezing moments, because he had a terrible concussion

767
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: after falling. Barbara Walters fell at the French Embassy in Washington,

768
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: d C. She was never the same after that. My

769
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: mom fell last Thanksgiving. She was in the hospital for

770
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 2: a week because she hit her head. When you were

771
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 2: in your eighties and you fall, it is a serious event,

772
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: very serious. And this is a president who looks unsteady

773
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: often when he's walking, and all it takes is tripping

774
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: and falling on your way to go brush your teeth

775
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: in the morning.

776
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: I'm not so. I've lived through this, right, which happened

777
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: over the rise of Trump and the Republican Party. It's

778
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: just an objective fact that every person who went on

779
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 1: television in twenty and fifteen, twenty and sixteen, with incredibly

780
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: few exceptions, who is a Republican said one thing on

781
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: the camera, said one thing off the camera about him.

782
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: Joe Scarborough just said this regarding Democrats who go on

783
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: his show. Every Democrat who comes on says one thing

784
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: on the air, says another thing about this off the air.

785
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 2: What are they saying off the air?

786
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: Off the air, every Democrat says they don't think that

787
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: Biden is capable of running a winning election. No one

788
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: wants to be first right, no one wants to be

789
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: on point. But none of this is lost on the

790
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: American people who know intuitively.

791
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I mean. We were talking about this

792
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 2: at the beginning, and that's why David Ignatius wrote that

793
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: column which apparently really got it. Listen the other thing,

794
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: it's interesting we haven't talked about this at all. But

795
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 2: the other thing that I'm hearing is something that Democrats

796
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: are saying behind the scenes and that nobody is saying publicly,

797
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 2: is that they feel that President Biden's decisions to have

798
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 2: his son Hunter, you know, going on Air Force one

799
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: with him to Ireland and going to a state dinner

800
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: with major mistake. You can love your son and support

801
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 2: your son and his recovery from a serious drug addiction,

802
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: and it doesn't have to be in the public eye.

803
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 2: And the first time your son calls you from a

804
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 2: business dinner while he's on speakerphone with a bunch of

805
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 2: guys who you don't know, you say, don't ever do

806
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 2: that toget again, or you know, the whole issue of

807
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: why is he working for Barisma? Why didn't somebody say

808
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: years ago this is not a good look. You don't

809
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: have any expertise. You're clearly being off for the job

810
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 2: because you're my son. You can't do that. There seems

811
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 2: to be a blind spot according to many Democrats for

812
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: the President when it comes to his son, and I

813
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: think it is going to hurt him in the campaign.

814
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: It's a speaking truth to power. He said, then said

815
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: said and done, you know. And one of the greatest

816
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: White House aides of all time was John Kennedy's Kenny

817
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: Kenny donnelly, and his ambition in life was to be

818
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: the first person in the Oval office every day to

819
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: tell Jack Kennedy he was full of ship about something.

820
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: And that typically is is not the route to getting uh,

821
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: you know, Kenny Donnelly. It's it's not the route to

822
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: get it into getting ahead in politics. And you know

823
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: that's that's what that is. Let me ask you this

824
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: about Hunter Biden. I talked about this in a in

825
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: a in a talk I gave seems to me that

826
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: what Hunter Biden put aside you whether he should be

827
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: on Air Force one or all of this, for certain,

828
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: he's entitled to some grace in the society. A lot

829
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 1: of UH politicians have kids. He's had a hard life

830
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: by any objective measure. His life went off the rails

831
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: completely whatever for all of us our lowest moments, right,

832
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: I mean, all of his right are our front and center.

833
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: And I guess, like my question that I posed to

834
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: a room full of Republicans, they said, what do you

835
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: want to do with them? You want him to kill himself?

836
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:47,919
Speaker 1: That satisfy the bloodlust? Should we execute him.

837
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: Right? What?

838
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: What do you want him to start using hard drugs again?

839
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: Would that satisfy him? And it's the complete absence of

840
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: grace to me in the moment, like stepping back, the

841
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: absence of kindness. Well wishes that I can tell you

842
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: twenty members of Congress like that at both parties with

843
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: kids who have gone and are in recovery. Do we

844
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: really as a country want to make this right? That

845
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: you run for office, your family is in the free

846
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,879
Speaker 1: fire zone for destruction. You've got an anorexia daughter. Your

847
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: opponents can to try to drive her to suicide.

848
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: And so.

849
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: I think that this is an elemental story about American

850
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: culture and about American life, and my fundamental criticism the

851
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: defect of American political coverage. American political coverage posits that

852
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: American culture flows out of American politics, as opposed to

853
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: American politics flowing out of American culture. And when you

854
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: cover it, that politics is at the headwaters. It has

855
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: a profoundly warping and distorting, distorting effect. And I'm curious,

856
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 1: like how you think about it, because you will be

857
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: remembered as a world class journalist, someone talented who had

858
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: had a great career in all of it. But unlike

859
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 1: most journalists, right you, you will have played a role

860
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: in some astounding number of people that you'll probably never

861
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 1: know the number, you'll never know all the stories. But man,

862
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: you helped a lot of people. And I wonder, like

863
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: how you how you feel about that, you know, as

864
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: a as a part of your story, your legacy, and

865
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: in the context of a hunter Biden as you as

866
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: you get up there and talk about it, because I'm

867
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: not talking about immunizing him from a serious gun charge.

868
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about excusing behavior. I'm not talking about

869
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: kind of an absence of accountability, accountability and responsibility. These

870
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: things happen, you know when when when people have to

871
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: make amends, you know, from from things they've done wrong.

872
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: But I'm curious of think on your kind of worldview

873
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: on this stuff.

874
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you for your remarks about that.

875
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: I still get messages on social media from people who

876
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 2: write me and say that my book helped get them

877
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 2: sober or in many cases you saved my life. And

878
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: it's I once said to my kids, I think that's

879
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: probably the one thing I'll be remembered for the most

880
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: you know, there are lots of great journalists, so I

881
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: feel very grateful that I was able to take a

882
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 2: really difficult chapter in my life and help other people

883
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 2: get through their difficult chapters in their lives. I do

884
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 2: think that Hunter Biden's addiction has been certainly weaponized politically.

885
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,439
Speaker 2: Was there any reason for Marjorie Taylor Greening to hold

886
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 2: up a picture of Hunter Biden from his laptop doing something,

887
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 2: you know, under the influence of drugs that was embarrassing

888
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 2: and crude and had no business being in a congressional

889
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 2: committee hearing. And I do wonder where those congressmen who

890
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: have people in recovery in their lives are and why

891
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: they aren't speaking up a little bit more about the

892
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 2: way we talk about people who have suffered from drug addiction.

893
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 2: We know, as I said to at the beginning of

894
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: this podcast, that this is an issue that crosses political lines.

895
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 2: We know that the opioid crisis began in the heart

896
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 2: of Appalachia and in many red states where there were,

897
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: you know, under an unemployed people who had lost their

898
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: jobs in coal mines and in factories and had injuries

899
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 2: and were prescribed a drug that would make them feel

900
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: better and led them down a terrible path of addiction

901
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: and eventually death. So this is not a blue or

902
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 2: a red state issue. It's not a city or a

903
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 2: rural issue. It is in every American issue. It is

904
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: a uniquely American issue, the opioid crisis. And I just

905
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 2: I think it does. It is a terrible thing to

906
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: ridicule somebody or denigrate somebody for what they did while

907
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 2: in the grip of addiction. And I don't say that

908
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: he needs he should be excused for any crimes that

909
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 2: he committed. He should not. Everybody should be equal under

910
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: the law. By the way, it is very difficult to

911
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: find somebody who would have been indicted for the kind

912
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: of gun charge that he's been indicted for who didn't

913
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: also use that gun for a crime in commission of

914
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 2: a crime.

915
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: Also, I'll also, I'll be very direct about it, he

916
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: is being treated unfairly by the law. When you look

917
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: at a prominent person and you look at a person

918
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: in politics, particularly in this moment of time, you have

919
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: to look, whether it's Alvin Bragg in New York or

920
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: it's Hunter Biden, is there politics influencing this? And when

921
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: the answer is an obvious yes, on the basis of well,

922
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: give me the list of other people who've been similarly charged. Right,

923
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: So the issue with Hunter Biden is would the twenty

924
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: five year old black kid be charged with it? If

925
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: the answer is yes, by all means charger. But if

926
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 1: the only person in America who would be charged for

927
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: this is the president's son, because if the Attorney General

928
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: doesn't want criticism, well it's an issue too. Yeah, I think,

929
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: I mean, and just plainly staring. I think that's plainly

930
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: staring this, you know, this story in the face.

931
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so we're clear that when when these gun

932
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 2: charges lie, I mean, on its face, he wrote he

933
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: violated the law. He lied, he said I'm not a

934
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: drug user, and in fact he later on revealed he

935
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 2: was a drug user. So on its face, he did

936
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 2: violate the law. The reality is, this particular crime is

937
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 2: never charged unless you go on to use that gun

938
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 2: and commission of a crime. In this case, Hunter Biden

939
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:57,479
Speaker 2: had this unloaded gun for eleven days until his sister

940
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: in law took it away from him because she thought

941
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: he was going to kill him. The same thing is

942
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: true of the taxes he repaid. All those taxes. I mean,

943
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 2: I know people who got in trouble with the IRS

944
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 2: and didn't pay all their taxes, and you know, the

945
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: IRS hounded them in some cases, took their driver's license

946
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 2: from them, and you know, made all sorts of arrangements

947
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: on a payment plan for them, but they didn't get

948
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 2: charged with a crime. So I just I just think

949
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 2: that you have to be clear about all of that there,

950
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 2: it's anyway. I'm just more I just think that, and

951
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 2: it's funny. I asked Bobby Kennedy this in my town

952
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 2: hall that I anchored because he is a person in

953
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: long term recovery. He was very addicted to heroin or

954
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: I think it was heroin or cocaine. He was addicted

955
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 2: to drugs and has been in recovery for many, many years,

956
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 2: and I wanted to know from him what he felt

957
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 2: about seeing, you know, somebody else's addiction weaponized in a

958
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 2: way politically. And he didn't really answer the question, but

959
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:09,959
Speaker 2: he did talk very in a very interesting way about

960
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 2: how he thought we as a country should be approaching recovery,

961
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 2: which was holistic and not in judgment free. I just

962
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: think it feels like hunter Biden is fair game and

963
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 2: to a lot of people, and listen, I don't think.

964
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 2: I think there have been many, many, many mistakes in

965
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: the way the Biden family has handled this, and Hunter

966
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 2: Biden has handled this, and even President Biden has handled

967
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: this in having his son be so public. I'm not

968
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 2: in that family. I don't understand, you know, the dynamics there,

969
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 2: and I certainly don't understand what it's like to be

970
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 2: the father of a child, to be the father who

971
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 2: has lost two children and almost lost this son to

972
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: a terrible drug addiction, and what that must be like.

973
01:03:55,640 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 2: I can't fathom if one of my kids had gone

974
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 2: through this.

975
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: So I don't think anyone can.

976
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody can. And I just think it's

977
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 2: a bipart is an issue, and I really do wish

978
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 2: more people to bring it now out of full circle.

979
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 2: I really wish more people in Congress, as you say,

980
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 2: and in life, would be a little more graceful about

981
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: that aspect of the story. You know, everything else, let's debate,

982
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 2: and you know, is it fair to charge it? Was

983
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 2: it a violation of law? Should he have been working

984
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 2: for Beisma in the first place? Did he lie about

985
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 2: funds from China? Blah blah. That's all fair game and

986
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: open for debate. I wish his addiction was not used

987
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 2: as just some to bludgeon him.

988
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: The last question twenty twenty four, The story of the

989
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: year is going to be the presidential election. Yeah, but

990
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 1: is that the story? Is it the choice between Biden

991
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: and Trump, working Ma and whomever, or is the story

992
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: that the country may be about to no hyperbole, just

993
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: taking everyone literally what they say to cash in its

994
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: democracy that if you say it right journalistically, My response

995
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: to it is, I take it seriously. Right you're saying it,

996
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: I have no reason to believe you don't mean it.

997
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: What is the story? Is it the choice between the candidates,

998
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 1: or is it a deeper choice in our society on

999
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 1: a fault line, between a continuation of democracy or republican

1000
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: form of government or a sharp turn away from it.

1001
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 2: I don't think that's how the voters are looking at it.

1002
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody. I don't think any American is

1003
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 2: thinking I'm going to go vote to continued democracy or

1004
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 2: end democracy. They're voting for who's going to make the

1005
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 2: economy better for me? Why you know, who's going to

1006
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 2: create more jobs, who's going to solve the immigration crisis?

1007
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: Even though that's actually a congressional issue and not a

1008
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 2: presidential issue. You know, who's going to keep funding Ukraine.

1009
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:44,440
Speaker 2: People have strong feelings about the funding of Ukraine. So

1010
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 2: in that respect, I don't think, and you lay out

1011
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 2: the presidential election in very stark terms, I don't think

1012
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 2: the voters are going to go and vote in those

1013
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 2: stark terms. And in that respect, I think, I don't know.

1014
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 2: I have faith, Steve. I do have faith that this

1015
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: country and this amazing democracy and this incredible melting pot

1016
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 2: of divergence when it comes to cultures and races and

1017
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 2: creeds and ages, and I just think that I think

1018
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:24,840
Speaker 2: we're going to find it our way. I do.

1019
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 1: I agree with you, but that is not like my

1020
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 1: natural default position.

1021
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 2: So we're a little like e or I think.

1022
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm somebody like I'm somebody who's in that who's in

1023
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: that uh, who's in that tide getting pulled out a

1024
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: little bit. So I gotta I gotta swim back right

1025
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: towards my you know, towards my faithfulness part of it.

1026
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: But anecdotally, you are correct where the question has been

1027
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 1: put in certain states, in certain geographies between a real

1028
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 1: a cue extremism on the ballot versus whether it's a

1029
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 1: mainstream Democrat, Republican alternative. American people have rejected the extremism

1030
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: pretty overwhelmingly. Yeah, if it will see, if it will see,

1031
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 1: if it continues. I appreciate your time and your insight.

1032
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: What a pleasure to have you for an hour game.

1033
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 2: It was so fun talking to you, Steve. Thanks so much,